On Thursday 25 February 2016 02:05:44 Thomas Maus wrote: Yes, please!! I shall only in fact use specific sets, but it would be difficult to choose them from what is there, and some of what you reference sound of enormous interest to me. Your whole approach sounds great. And if you can manage the exchange somehow, I can manage 213 MB. :-) As you say, KDE Look is really, really difficult to dig around in. Lisi

Am Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2016 schrieb Thomas Maus: I don't want to rush, but can't we build a package out of that archive and add it to TDE? Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA.

On Thu, 25 Feb 2016 14:15:36 +0000 Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz(a)gmail.com> wrote: The unknown copyright/licensing status would make it impossible even if the manpower were available, I think. Artwork distributed with Trinity has to be able to go out with the same license as everything else. E. Liddell

Hi Thomas, sorry for the late reply. I have created bug report 2600 (http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=2600) for this point. Please attached your 12 MB tar.xz archive there (hopefully Tim will not slash me for allowing that :-) ) for the time being, so we keep track of it and people (if they want) can evaluate the material. I am in favor of the proposed facelift, but it will take time since as you probably have understood there is only a bunch of already-busy developers. I suggest that for the time being you do not waste much time chasing or verifying licenses and wait until the time we will address the update. At that time we will probably ask you to do some dig up. Most likely it will not be a single massive upgrade but something more like many small updates over time. Thanks for your contribution to TDE so far, it is already very precious and welcome. Keep it up :-) Cheers Michele

Excellent point, I fully share that From TDE side there is no ill feeling AFAICT. Hopefully the same on the other side, no idea at all. In terms of cooperation, I think we are two independent groups, but if developers from KDE3 wants to join the TDE dev group they would be more than welcome :-) Cheers Michele

On Sunday 28 February 2016, 19:42 wrote Thomas Maus: On 2nd thought -- "au contraire" is plain wrong: The following trinity would probably much better: * On the Web-site extend the screenshot section to a " Desktops introduced" (optional sub-title: "unity in diversity" to keep up a Trinity aspect ;-) This should not be pure eye-candy or screenshot, but an explanation of the complete desktop configuration choices, addressing the usage scenario, the focus of config and the resulting individual choices (either as structured or flowing text), based on individual experience. This is combined with a theme and some way to convey the settings not stored in themes (yet). * In "tdepersonalizer" these introduced desktops should (later) be available choices, so that a user can preview and read about a desktop design on the Web-site, decide to try Trinity and then get exactly that desktop design in a streamlined process. * In control-center users can explore the "configuration space", with the tag preset (initially) reducing and guiding through the configuration choices. Here an example text, how I would introduce my desktop: ---8<------------------------------------------------------------------------------ My desktop needs to support working for many hours per day in a complex and mentally taxing environment. My primary requirements thus are, that on one hand it must prevent RSI and other computer work related maladies and must be especially easy on my eyes, and on the other hand it must not be distractive but with visual cues must support the workflows, habits and reflexes acquired in three decades of X11 GUI use. Avoiding mouse clicks helps me to avoid RSI symptoms, so menus open on mouse hover and window focus follows mouse. I need to use a lot of windows -- many terminal emulations -- and switch often between them. This goes well with the "B II" window style, which produces a staggered, tabbed appearance for the window titles, making it easy to switch windows with mouse hovers. Active windows and other objects are highlighted in strong golden and red colors, to ease orientation on this dynamically changing desktop, and -- together with the informative terminal titlebars -- avoid desaster. Icons, cursors, as well as text colors and fonts are choosen for good contrast and discernability. Opposed to other window types, where I need to see the same colors as other people I'm communicating with, the background of the much-used terminal windows are black for several reasons: it is easier on the eyes (less retinol depletion), color codes of tools like "ls", "egrep", etc. are better visible The colors were generally chosen to be "warm", and are intended to be used with a monitor set to "low color temperatures". The idea is to reduce the so- called "blue light hazard", especially avoiding insomnia after late-night sessions -- it is working for me. The wallpaper might be abstract or a motive, but most of the time I choose a warm green color, because of their stress- reducing effect. ---8<------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ciao, ThoMaus

On 2016/03/01 07:11 AM, E. Liddell wrote: Hi Thomas, E., sorry for the late reply, I have been kind of busy these days. I will try to reply here to your points. I like the idea of having some "default desktop" as initial available choices. Perhaps we could have at least a couple of them as standard, one being "TDE Classic" (i.e. now) and one being "TDE modern" (or something like this) with a more modern icon set, mouse icons, theme, .... We could show that on the website and update KPersonalizer to support both choices. KPersonalizer should basically offer the user a choice between "predefined desktop styles" (this new idea) and "manual configuration" (i.e. the current behavior). Also in the "manual configuration" we should add support for mouse icon set. As additional step (for a later stage), we could set up some space on the server for additional predefined desktops and themes and Improve KPersonalizer to download them on request. This would provide more appealing options for new users while at the same time keep old users happy. What do you think? Tim, Slavek, please also give your feedback. Being that the developers are very few, this will be a slow upgrade process but as they say, if we never start, we will never get there :-) Cheers Michele

Am Freitag, 26. Februar 2016 schrieb Michele Calgaro: +1 -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA.

Michele Calgaro wrote: this looks great I would have suggested the tetragrammaton as the base of whole universe, but we would go into deep religious and philosophic dispute if it is 3 or 4 etc. ;-), however it would fit the Trinity part

On 27/02/2016 15:25, Michele Calgaro wrote: I personally have no problem with change unless it is foisted without choice. I don't like the particular images so far mentioned in the thread as I don't see my use of TDE having any link with religion, the Isle Of Man or any other Celtic origins. In fact, anything remotely linked with Religion is a big no no for me. I have no idea why Trinity Desktop Environment is so named but I have never considered the 'Trinity' part to be of a religious nature. Can somebody enlighten me on where the 'T' as in Trinity originates from in this case? So, basically, I would like the choice to remain with the current icon set or at least, a set not so completely diverse. Cheers, Mike. -- Mike Howard

On 27/02/2016 16:15, Michele Calgaro wrote: Oooh, that sounds a bit abrupt :) I didn't for one minute suggest Trinity has _anything_ to do with religion, Isle of Man or Celtic origins, please show me where I did. What I wrote and implied was that the _images_ mentioned/linked to as replacements for the current TDE logos in this thread do have links to religion, the Isle of Man and Celtic origins. As you point out, everyone is free to raise opinion, so I assume that includes me? -- Mike Howard

On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 22:25:13 +0700 Michele Calgaro &lt;michele.calgaro(a)yahoo.it&gt; wrote: For your amusement, then, here are some very early stage concept sketches. (I included a couple of random ones like the "tree-nity" logo from the batch I did ~4 years ago and the spiral-T just to give some variety to the set.) I didn't bother with colour/gradient/fancy outline tricks at this point because I'm not inclined to put that much work into something we end up not moving forward with. Basic design criteria included incorporating some idea of "three-ness" (or "T-ness" in a couple of cases), and not looking too much like anyone else's logo that I know of. Which is why the one that looks most like Trisquel Linux's has that triangle added. Logos too similar = potential trademark infringement. E. Liddell

On Thursday 03 March 2016 12:15:29 Michele Calgaro wrote: I would sort of agree. But I rather like some of the combinations, and our roots are part of our attraction, so it is in some ways nice to be reminded. I would also personally prefer to stay away from anything that reminds me, however remotely and unjustifiably, of the swastika. I know that it is an ancient symbol, I know that it is in fact the symbol of light, I know that it was the wrong way round, I know it had four arms etc. etc. But I don't like being reminded of it. (The one in the top right corner). My husband (my resident guinea pig) particularly liked the tree and the one under it. I particularly like the one under the tree. Interestingly enough, my husband disliked the ones with gears on aesthetic grounds!! But I also liked the one at the far left of the bottom row. Not as much as the T with the triskele. That is really nice and very "suitable" IMHO. Lisi

Am Sonntag, 6. März 2016 schrieb E. Liddell: my 2¢: 1 to 4 look good, but 5 looks like superman logo :-) Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA.

<snip Thomas email> Hi Thomas, with reference to "Trefoil_as_Hypotrochoid.png", great!! To me it captures the fluidity concept perfectly (just my 2c). With colors and perhaps with a "T" in the middle, it may be a good candidate. Hi E. great stuff, I have to say that with color they look much better. I like number 3 (the tree one) and 4. As a possible variation of 4, what about trying to remove the "arch-style" end of each of the three points and use a round profile as Thomas did in "Trefoil_as_Hypotrochoid.png". Also, replacing the gear with TDE's "T" symbol may be an idea. If you have time and want to experiment with that, please go ahead :-) Cheers Michele

Felix Miata wrote: I never liked the gear and I like the Triquetra a lot, but I agree with the rest about stability and resources. In fact an icon change would not impact the functionality and stability in any way IMHO. Also IMHO the gear should be left for the 3.x branch. regards

Felix Miata wrote: So you claim that if the gear is replaced by Triquetra you won't be able to find your way around TDE? But hey at the moment I see the menu icon is changed anyway - there is a T instead of K in the middle of the gear. It is hard for me to understand how changing the gear to Triquetra would impact you, given you are able to navigate with the T menu I think you'll fall into the 5% statistical deviation and we could agree that it would be acceptable. I like the arguments provied by "Thomas Maus" regards

Am Freitag, 4. März 2016 schrieb deloptes: And that gear is a pain in the eyes for each and every hardware guy. Funny that Gene didn't complain about it :-) Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA.

Thomas Maus composed on 2016-03-04 02:17 (UTC+0100): I'm only mildly surprised it hasn't been replaced, only mildly because the project has so many things well overdue for fixing. The project has morphed away from what made it great. The gear is iconic for what it was at its best. Now it's not KDE, but a collection: 1-Workspace, aka Plasma 2-Frameworks, whatever that means 3-Applications, supposedly standalone, not dependent on Plasma or Frameworks In user forums, users are constantly being chastised for writing KDE rather than being specific about which of the three was the subject of discussion, as if ordinary users could even become aware of how to distinguish where the fault underlying their problem might lie. What KDE is now lacks leadership and direction. It's a programmer's playground. There's no pressure from anywhere to fix what's broke. Stale is a synonym for other words with more positive meaning, so not necessarily a bad thing. And TDE did start as a fork, of a great product. I would not like to see awareness of that lost, like the heritage that long ago made the USA great, but has all but disappeared over recent decades. I think it's clear enough from the language used on the Trinity Project website that the aim is reliable functionality without bling and naivette getting in the way. A gear is something that once installed just works. Nothing fancy, complicated or requiring constant attention. I can't see how it can obstruct anything. Probably some. Probably others realize something went wrong and are interested in restoring the proven backup. ISTR Tim mentioning he doesn't see an indisciminately wider user base as in TDE's best interest. Word of mouth can attract a better crowd than marketing to get a bigger crowd. Some changes may be in order, but the existing cool (vs. warm; calming, soothing; not as often spelled "kewl") product look and feel I see as an advantage in itself. What needs fixing: 1-Konq: keep functionality that made it special, but updat for a complete web experience equivalent to competition built on WebKit, Blink and Gecko, and without any need to flip between two different engines as in Konq 4. Keeping the ability to render physical CSS sizes (pt, mm, cm, in, etc.) as physical rather than logically equated to arbitrary pixel sizes is essential. The CSS spec regressed horribly in completely disposing of nominally physical sizes as real physical sizes. Gecko retains a proprietary hidden option, mozmm, to permit physical sizing, but only KHTML permits legacy content to be rendered as originally designed, or new content not be specially built with proprietary styles in order to render with genuinely physical dimensions. 2-starttde needs to be in $PATH regardless of underlying OS without any more fussing required by sysadmin beyond installing TDE in the first place. One shouldn't need to type WINDOWMANAGER=/opt/Trinity/bin/starttde before startx to start a TDE session without a login manager. 3-KDE3 menu style ought to be default, more tree branches, fewer apps to hunt through in each main or first sub menu branch selection. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

Am Samstag, 27. Februar 2016, 22:25:13 schrieb Michele Calgaro: As E. has already presented some designs worth consider (with a head start ;-), I share a proof sheet of my first triskelion design. To avoid misunderstandings: I'm not ignoring the general preference for the trefoil -- I had already the first triskele drafts going, and have to get them out of my head and out of the way, to do some trefoil designs. This first batch needs some explanation: It is a transparent proof sheet, you're meant to load (e.g. in GIMP), and then proof against various backdrops. The first row give you an idea of the construction principles. In the second column I couldn't fail to notice the outline of this pasley form, I then colored blue. This form appears in many contexts all around the world, be it celtic, gothic, japanese, korean, or chinese art ... Further I happened to see some illustrations about quarks constituting hadrons -- that side-tracked my imagination and produced the second row. Rows 3 to 6 contain a systematic exploration of these spinning forms from row 2 and some triskele variations. (You see, I'm an engineer ;-) By choosing a white background the 3rd column will become equivalent to the 2nd if the gradient would have been set to white. There are some imperfections. I suggest, you choose your favorite(s) from this batch and give their row/column coordinate. I'll then clean them up. This is NOT THE VOTE FOR THE NEW LOGO, just a preference within this batch. The next batch will be the triskele designs, I originally imagined, then -- with my brain dumped and free again -- the trefoil designs will be worked upon. Enjoy (hopefully ;-), ThoMaus

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:36:07 +0000 Alexandre &lt;ac586133(a)hotmail.com&gt; wrote: Trees do have a religious significance, actually, in a lot of what are loosely called pagan religions. The triquetra has been used as a Christian symbol, as has just about anything else with three-part symmetry. Actually, practically any simple form usable as a logo has probably been used by someone's religion at some point in time (including unexpected things like fish, cats, and hammers), so I'm not sure it's a good idea to exclude whole classes of objects on that basis. The Masalla icon set is, in general, very well-made and very (there's no other word for it) iconic. However, the tree you've presented does not say "Trinity/TDE" to me. A more triangular tree (an evergreen?) in a similar style might work, but it also might drag in Christmas associations . . . Branding is hard. E. Liddell

On Saturday 05 March 2016, 00:07 wrote Dr. Nikolaus Klepp: Oh, botch it -- you caught me, Nik! What gave away, that I was trying to foist the FSM on you unsuspecting disbelievers? The two meatballs in the initial construct, latter to be covered by the spaghetti disguised as triskele spirals? ;-) ciao, ThoMaus

On Friday 04 March 2016, 02:48 wrote Thomas Maus: Attached find the proof sheets for the second batch of triskele-based design, alas, somewhat reluctant: Considering that we are only talking about 2-dimensional arrays of pixels, PLEASE refrain from religious warfare! My proposals were meant to unite, not to divide ... Feel free to ignore or dislike my designs, my joy was in preparing them and honing my rusty "gimp" and "inkscape" skills again. I will provide the SVGs on request via list, bug-attachment or PM under CC-BY-SA. Also, feel free to suggest improvements or ideas, or simply do something better (with or without my designs). In order to perhaps quell the occultism charge, this was my line of thought: The triskele is positioned to look like a T with very ornate, curly ends. The color triplet RGB was chosen, as it is these colors are base of every desktop, uniting to a diversity of colors, forms and impressions. The various shades and sometimes translucencies serve as (hopefully aesthetic) illustration ... This batch was my original design target, before becoming side-tracked ... Again the proof sheet is intended to be viewed with various backgrounds. You will notice, that in the third row one design is missing -- I failed to do this within "inkscape" (if anybody knows how to achieve the glow effect in "inkscape", enlighten me ... ;-) I did it in GIMP, see the 2nd attachment. Peace, ThoMaus

On Fri, 04 Mar 2016 19:25:10 +0100 Thomas Maus &lt;thomas.maus(a)gmx.de&gt; wrote: (This is a general set of remarks on both your batches, examined purely from a design/branding point of view and not meaning to discourage.) I'm afraid the RGB colour set, despite its symbolism, was not necessarily a good choice from a purely mechanical point of view. Specifically, the blue is of too dark a value to contrast well with a black triskele, and the green is of too light a value to contrast well with a white triskele. This is more visible if you zoom out--you can see the lines disappear. The logo will be in use as an icon in various places, and the smallest static icon size provided by TDE is a 16px square. (A couple of my own designs need a little work in that regard, too.) Also, how will this work in a black-and-white context (Mono icon set, for accessibility)? The other problem I have, with the second set especially, is that I'm not sure the shape you're using is distinct enough from the Trisquel Linux logo--yes, you've reversed the direction and the spiral is more uniform, but will a random person glancing at it casually *notice* that? I think you're looking at playing with the parameters of multiple filters. "Cutout glow" might be a place to start. (Inkscape filters are not a good choice for this particular task, though--they don't render outside of Inkscape, so they just make it more difficult to produce usable SVG icons.) E. Liddell

On Saturday 05 March 2016 01:40:21 Thomas Maus wrote: This one is quite nice!! Lisi

Thomas, E., thanks for all your work so far. I will try to summarize where we are with this discussion (if I forgot something please feel free to add to it). - some users do not want any change - it would be good to give TDE a look refresh to move away from the "stale" perception and attract new users - some consensus for the treefoil knot - some consensus for triskele - some consensus and some objection to move away from the "gear" concept - new logo should capture the essence of TDE: easy, productive, fluid, simple I guess we will not be able to please everyone. Anyhow if we move ahead, we should plan to have both a TDE-Classic style (i.e. current style) and a TDE-modern style (new theme, new logo, new icons....), so we can please old users and try to please new ones. KPersonalizer will allow the initial choice between the two. I think we will have to narrow down on a few logo proposal and then choose one from there. Cheers Michele PS: Thomas, with reference to the Triskele-Radiant-Drafts-TM-1.svg.png file, I like the top right one: "three" spirals, simple, fluid, easy on the eye. I also like the colors but I do not mind if we decide for others

On Saturday 05 March 2016 13:08:17 Slávek Banko wrote: What do you think of line 3 column 1? I thought that that married the trefoil and the gear particularly felicitously. Lisi

Am Samstag, 5. März 2016 schrieb Slávek Banko: IMO the center should be black, too.l nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA.

On Saturday 05 March 2016 20:34:50 deloptes wrote: To be honest, not one of the suggestions is as nice as the present logo, IMHO. Sorry guys, after all your work. Lisi

On Saturday 05 March 2016 20:34:50 deloptes wrote: And it has dawned on me with sadness that this would mean losing Konqui. :-( Lisi

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 19:12:56 +0100 Thomas Maus &lt;thomas.maus(a)gmx.de&gt; wrote: +1 I'd say give it a couple more weeks, then call a vote (with "keep the existing logo" as one of the choices, just in case it has overwhelming support) to thin the ranks. Then approach Tim with the top ~3 if he hasn't weighed in yet at that point--ultimately, he has veto rights. I'm pretty sure Tim was approached once previously by the KDE people about branding, which led to the initial "T" logo. If there's been a peep out of them since, he hasn't said anything. So I'd guess there's no problem with just including a gear in the logo (especially if it's distinct from any gear in a current KDE trademark--different shape and number of teeth or whatever). Konqui's more dangerous, since he's still actively in use by KDE in pretty much the same form. There was some consideration given to changing the mascot a while back, but it petered out when no one could scrape together the time/energy to create any concept sketches. (Also, I'm not sure how many judges can tell the difference between a Linux distro and a Linux desktop environment. Maybe European judges are better with tech, I don't know.) Don't worry--knowing the habits of English and its speakers, if the words are useful, our language will "borrow" them sooner or later. ;P E. Liddell

Dear all, we discussed about a new logo for a while. So I would like to invite whoever is interested to submit their proposals or ideas within the end of the month to this ML. After that we will arrange some sort of vote to choose 3 or 4 possible candidates (including the "keep the current logo possibility") and at the end we will see what Tim thinks about it. Thanks everyone for his/her contribution. Cheers Michele PS: let's *NOT* start another war-like email chain on this again :-) Just submit yuor proposal ;-)

On Sunday 06 March 2016 18:12:56 Thomas Maus wrote: Only a negative one - a lack of objection. The project was originally called KDE-Trinity, but the name had to be changed because KDE objected on trademark or copyright grounds - or both? - to the use of the name KDE. KDE did not at the time object to the use of anything else. Surely it would be hard to claim a picture of a gear as copyright? And some years after the other objection, we now have usage in our favour. We'll soon hit the Statute of Limitations. Moreover, if Konqui and the gear are GPL and/or Creative Commons, they are available anyway! And a short period of Googling suggests a) that they are and b) that KDE5's Konqui has been redesigned and is recognisably different. Lisi

Here my batch of draft "trefoil knot" designs. (Drafts -- meaning not necessarily ready for use, as all previous batches too) The trefoil triquetra (as opposed to the triquetra vesica, the one with the pointed arcs) is the most neutral of the symbols proposed so far, as it can be cleanly based on and linked to mathematical properties: it can be generated as a trochoide and it is both the simplest torus knot and simplest non-trivial knot. (Of course, whatever our choice of logo -- it would be wise to nail down our interpretations of both the logo and "trinity" in words (mission statement and the like), to prevent malevolent misinterpretion or pocket of word or logo "trademarks"!) As with all batches, please load them into GIMP (or the tool of your choice): * set them before different backgrounds * zoom them to different sizes (most of my design behave reasonably well at small sizes) * feel free to reduce color saturation, shift the hue, darken, lighten to your hearts (or eyes) content (some think my colors to vivid, but IMHO it works better within GIMP to deplete colors from a too vivid design than the other way round) I generated the basic form and then stroked the path(es) with various calligraphic pens (simulating a wide calligraphic quill) to achieve some vividness and spatial substance: * in "Trefoil_Knot_1TM.png" one of the three symmetric pathes is traced (in black, to avoid charges of being to colorful ;-) and then rotated. It is essentially like drawing each line with a quill after rotating the paper. * in "Trefoil_Knot_2TM.png" the same quill and orientation is used, but the paper not turned -- the identical pathes look different, as the quill orientation is different. Then my personal limit of mono-colored design was reached ;-) Perhaps I have to explain my perception of colors on desktops, so you better understand my designs: The first art based on additive colors was the art of stained glass windows, as refined in Europe during the Romanic and Gothic period (there are precursors in persian, arabic, and mauric buildings, beautiful and artful indeed, but with all proper respect not as sophisticated). The explicitely declared goal of the builders of gothic cathedrals was the impression of entering a juwel -- an ethereal room flooded with living light, reacting to sun and clouds. Essentially a medieval cyper-space ... Considering how many people are sucked into cyber-space nowaday, that might give you an idea how impressed the medieval crofter must have been. The best way to get an impression is to enter a Romanic or Gothic church (or crypt) where at least in one area there is only light from stained windows on a sunny day with chasing clouds (substituting stained glass windows in such churches with blank glass is a barbaric crime, IMNSHO!). The 2nd best alternative -- lacking the color spectrum -- is a room solely lit by a fireplace. Or a screensaver on a large display at night, displaying professional¹ photos of stained glass windows ... [¹: the stone tracery must be black!] Alas, in the early 15th century the art declined and lost its magic, as it was adapted to replicate artwork from paintings, i.e. from the substractive colorspace. With the Art Noveau some revival started, as some artists realized that drawing additively with colored light is a completely different matter than drawing subtractively with colored pigments. So, after having dumped my brain, I hope you understand and can excuse, that I had absolutely no choice, but to do the next design in colors (;-). * in "Trefoil_Knot_3TM.png" the quill direction was changed, to give a much more spatial impression and each branch was colored seperately -- it might be the previous deprivation of colors, but I immediately fell in love with this design! If you wonder, why I bothered with simulated pen stroke, have a look at "Trefoil_Knot_6TM.png", trying a neon-desktop-suitable design: This flat design of uniform width looks more like a warning sign (think radioactivity or bio- hazard) than a menu button you want to click. (of course the neon version could be improved², but it is here as an motivation for my choices) [²: obviously by starting from "Trefoil_Knot_3TM.png" to make it more spatial, and of course by keeping 3 colors ]=-> The following two pictures are not meant as real logo proposal but to sketch an idea, which -- alas -- is not easily achieved (at least not with "inkscape" or GIMP). The colors are intended to make it easier to imagine the knot as a spatial object. If, keeping this in mind, you take a look at "Trefoil_Knot_8TM.png" (a color-depleted version of "Trefoil_Knot_7TM.png"), perhaps you can imagine the trefoil knot done in space with a tube from an uniform material, lit and with shadows which make the spatial structure visible. Doing so would be quite an effort for me: construct the 3D-model and render it in "povray" or some other 3D-rendering system would probably take me a weekend -- so I'd do this if there is interest in such a "knotted tube design" (which, I promise, would be realistic and not garish ;-) If there is somebody with the necessary skills and tools, to do this faster -- you are invited to step forward! Finally, if we are also considering triquetra-vesica designs (from E.), I want to throw the idea of a glover into the ring -- of course it is as the triquetra-vesica design strongly loaded with religious (St. Patrick) and Irish associations, but the need to fend of unwanted associations exists IMHO for any choice ... It could either a cut-out of a real clover, or a more formal design like "Clover_Drafts-TM.svg.png". ciao, ThoMaus

On Tuesday 08 March 2016 03:32:42 Michele Calgaro wrote: Why do we need a new logo? And even more, why do we need a new colour scheme? We seem to be diving into design without asking those questions. The present blue is very pleasant, and changing logo often loses what one had before. Change for change's sake seems to me to be a Bad Thing. The point of a trademark is to be instantly recognisable. The Bournemouth football team's nickname is "the Cherries". The New Zealand rugby team is "the All Blacks". My university has been known for several hundred years by its colour. Could they usefully change their colour on a whim? Changes of name, trademark etc. involve huge amounts of advertising to link the old and the new. The whole point of TDE is that it ISN'T new and glitzy and shiny. It's functional. That is its raison d'être and its strength. But anyway, why change? One has to have a very good reason for changing an established brand. The British Post Office spent an enormous sum of money changing its name to Consignia. It then had to spend an enormous sum of money changing it back. Tim has said that what we need, in order to expand, is money and developers. I personally do not see how we are to get more developers and more money without more users. But it is not up to me. I have specifically been asked to stop proselytising for now, and have done so. Killing the very identity and distinctiveness of TDE by "modernising" it, is not, IMHO, likely to bring great rewards. Lisi

On Tuesday 08 March 2016 11:58:35 Michele Calgaro wrote: I also said: Tim has said that what we need, in order to expand, is money and developers. I personally do not see how we are to get more developers and more money without more users. But it is not up to me. I have specifically been asked to stop proselytising for now, and have done so. You have quoted too selectively. Lisi

On Tuesday 08 March 2016, 11:41 wrote Lisi Reisz: I'm trying to lead a rational discussion here and I gave detailed arguments along this whole discussion thread. Have the kindness to read, consider and eventually falsify them -- the designs are secondary. The KDE gear will not convey the same message to new users that it conveys to users intimately knowing KDE3.5 (and actually KDE4.7+). In other words: it conveys the wrong message to most of the people. IMHO nowadays it does damage to TDE. How did I find Trinity? Well, I was investigating into potential extended OpenSuSE support for KDE4 or KDE3.5 and stumbled over remarks on Trinitity TDE -- all being negative on grounds of looks and claims of stasis. Well, luckily I give a * [insert an acceptable derogatory of your choosing] on the opinion of people, arguing purely on aesthetics ore vague perceptions, and figured that it would take me less time to install and test Trinitity TDE myself, than searching for any profound test. What did I find: A community keeping an excellent desktop not only alive, but improving it -- despite the fact that the improvements in e.g. TDErandrtray are quite buggy. I'm willing to see the potential, and contribute ... (most are not ...) And the willingness to improve is necessary on many grounds: * technological change: Wayland is coming and substituting X11 (and seeing how decision making in the Open Source community is going meanwhile, I'd not be surprised to see a (over-quick) demise of X11) * improvements in other desktops: e.g. while XFCE was vastly inferior to KDE3.5 even 5 years ago, it meanwhile has nearly its level and is missing only a few (ergonomical important) features So, how do I dare to suggest "change"? Let's say: I'm not a complete stranger to Open Source community mechanics, since the early 80s ... I actually dived into these questions before presenting any draft, and deepened my argumentation on any response. As stated R+m times (m>0, R being the number of repetitions I find acceptable): I do not want change for change's sake, but for a detailed list of arguments. Read them and object to them ... All the functionality, and all the effort invested, is wasted if not used. And actually the functionality contains the capability to support a modern looking desktop with superior features, compared to many current developments. So, why hide this power? Why this "you can have the T-modell in any color, as long as it is black"? The quality and functionality of the car (and the desktop) is not in the least impaired if other choices for the paint work and the seats are available. Exactly my point. Now: How do you think to attract more users? I'm open for suggestions and willing to support any promising idea in place of my own, because I would hate to see this project die a long agonizing death by starvation! ciao, ThoMaus

On Tuesday 08 March 2016 20:07:51 Thomas Maus wrote: I was attracting more users. Users who dislike all this "bling" that is so fashionable now. Tim asked me to stop. I have stopped. You want TDE to compete with all these other desktops. TDE appeals to those who do not want this competition. There is no need to be offensive. I asked why "we" need a new logo. We know what you think and demand that the rest of us think. Your credentials in Open Source are not relevant to your insistence that your opinion has to be taken as incontrovertible fact. Moreover you are ignoring the fact that Tim asked me not to proselytise. You may feel that _you_ have already answered the questions I asked. I asked them of "us". Plural, not dual. I know what you think. What about all those who have so far said nothing? What about all those on the users list? You ARE wanting change for change's sake. You want change because TDE is not "modern" enough. That is change for change's sake. The idea of having two completely different logos is IMHO a complete non-starter and makes nonsense of having a logo. You _will_ lose present users if you go along the track you want. This may, of course, be part of your design. You are of course going to supply the large amount of money needed to expand the hardware capacity of the project to be able to cater for large numbers of new users. The release candidates for PCLinuxOS interestingly had a garish, deliberately Windows-like, logo. It was ditched by the time of the first release. I actually think that your analysis of the "problems" is completely wrong, and largely irrelevant. There are IMHO obstacles to expansion that interpose long before you get to the point where it is too old fashioned or otherwise. Destroying the essence of the project will not lead to huge numbers of users. And if it were to do so, it would not make any difference if TDE was no more. Lisi

deloptes composed on 2016-03-09 00:29 (UTC+0100): I don't see any such logical connection. Lisi and I don't. We're probably not the only two. Has someone proven this somehow? No. 14 branched over a year ago, as if branching was even relevant in logo selection. KDE needs to cut its associations with KDE. TDE doesn't. TDE is what KDE was at its best, and a bit more. The current KDE is an abomination, nothing like what it was when TDE forked. It's a frequent crasher, memory hog, and time waster. Many good features were lost in the scratch rewrites since forking. And even though the project remains KDE and the web site remains kde.org, its focus centers on Plasma, and with it the connotation of change, contra-stability, even change for change's sake. Then why so much input from you advocating a change? Voting is fine, as long as you're able to get the silent and content majority unsilenced. A vote here on devel would be anything but fair, unless fair means only the vociferous count. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

Felix Miata wrote: 1. I do not like the gear - it does not impact my daily life, but I like what was proposed more than the gear. It is about subjective liking something or not. 2. I honour other peoples opinion and want to give them a chance (just as Michele posted in replay to your message) No one said that we should vote here. I suggest to vote here, so that someone may setup a website for voting and then post a call for voting on the users list. I also do not understand why you should oppose to changing the logo in such way - it's just a logo and some of us believe it will do good. In fact you did not answer the question I put forward last time. The logo has changed already - there is a T over the gear now - what would be different if we replace the gear with a trefoil? In my opinion nothing, but we would be able to stay neutral from any association with current KDE. In my opinion this will complete the transition - name, versioning and logo. If you do not understand the logic behind I can not help any more. I try to understand you as well, but it is not that easy. In my opinion a user of TDE knows what are the benefits and a changed logo would not impact the perseption, while a new user might be impacted by any association with KDE and its new philosophy. This is the only argument I accept and would vote yes. regards

Thomas Maus composed on 2016-03-08 22:23 (UTC-0500): Alignment's messed up enough to make evaluation more trouble than it's worth. Maybe try again with a big bunch of extra whitespace before first data column? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

Am Mittwoch, 9. März 2016 schrieb Thomas Maus: Let's cite some people from devuan ML: - TDE = KDE = bloatware - TDE too much configurable - xfce is much slimer (and less configurable, which is good) - as xfce and other WMs is so slim, there is need for 3rd party tools - dmenu is perfect as it makes wms (+xfce) usable You see, these arguments run in circles. The funny point is, there are only some individuals that call for XFCE, but they make all the noise. If more users from TDE ML go to devuan ML, then there could/would be a change. Current situation is, that no distribution bundles TDE (on contrary to all other above metioned DEs - even enlightment is packaged with debian, but I have not seen it in use ever). Debian did everything to kill KDE35 and will never include TDE. Giving that, 1% is good. Devuan would be an opportunity to change this, as would be FreeBSD or OpenBSD (which still has KDE 3.5). From the marketing point of view, TDE is not "cool": The homepage shows 3 screenies "blue", one "gold" but for FreeBSD. The screenshot section has 6 screenies of "blue". So, if you don't like "blue", dont use TDE. The iconset is "old" and blue. Where are themes? Is this thing even themable? Do not forget, the next (= this) new user generation has never seen KDE35. So, having said this I think a visual facelift is the minimum that should happen. This does not mean that the classical themes should be removed. But there need to be more visual variation, e.g. themes presented on the homepage, etc. Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA.

Lisi Reisz wrote: Lisi, I am curios to know why a logo change would impact someones perception of the desktop, given s/he already uses it? I really do not understand your and Felixs logic. Perhaps me and Thomas, coming from the German speaking world think different, but I can not change the way we think and make conclusions. In one point you are right. This is Timothys decision. A decision that should be made from marketing point of view. As of an example I would give a car facelifting. The manufacturer does not change the mechanics, but the look and feel to attract more customers. In my opinion this is compareable to what we discuss here. In terms of logo and the same example - there are car manufacturers that produce their own models under different brand/logo (Smart, Dacia etc). I did not expect this discussion would be so long - very interesting and amusing to me. regards

On Wednesday 09 March 2016 10:36:37 deloptes wrote: I did something that I ought to have done earlier in this discussion and had not done for years, and had a look at the KDE website and at what KDE is doing now. As a result, I am allowing some of you to persuade me that it would do no harm to differentiate more from KDE. I would not want to lose all links, since our strength is that we have carried on what we see as the legacy of KDE 3. So I would favour something simple such as a design based on the so appropriate Wankel rotor, suggested by Jim, with a T, similar to now, to maintain that link. But I am still against "modernisation". ;-) Lisi

On Wednesday 09 March 2016 12:12:06 E. Liddell wrote: Don't let's get involved in a symantic disagreement now. Let's just agree to differ. Lisi

On 03/09/2016 02:48 PM, Jim wrote: Actually it is correct, but I admit perhaps a better choice would be to use -r14.0.x or just -r14.0 I guess this naming convention is caused by historical reasons, but I see no reason why we can not fix this. Slavek, Tim, what do you think? Cheers Michele

On Tuesday 08 March 2016 13:14:48 Jim wrote: The minor detail of whether we do this at all aside, wow!! The best idea so far. Lisi

+1 for the rounded Trefoil knot. Already in use here (emerald green) On 26 February 2016 at 15:06, Michele Calgaro &lt;michele.calgaro(a)yahoo.it&gt; wrote:

________________________________________ De : Thomas Maus &lt;thomas.maus(a)gmx.de&gt; Envoyé : 27 février 2016 07:03 À : trinity-devel(a)lists.pearsoncomputing.net Objet : Re: [trinity-devel] TDE new logo proposal?? (was Re: [trinity-devel] Visual facelifting proposals) On Saturday 27 February 2016, 00:02 wrote David Hare: Do you care to share? ciao, ThoMaus Hi, I did some artwork for TDE over the last few years, but I won't do it anymore for some reasons. However, I would like to share with you my artwork folder, just in case it could be useful for you: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B37cGFKZ9yM8RnpCYUFILV9nRE0 I wish you good luck, because you will need it! -Alexandre

On Friday 26 of February 2016 16:06:52 Michele Calgaro wrote: Yes, the trefoil knot looks good. It's a nice, simple, mysterious... I like it. -- Slávek