12 Aug
2009
12 Aug
'09
8:12 a.m.
Dear All,
Thanks for making KDE3 available for Kubuntu users. I have been running an
LTSP network with KDE3 for several happy users. Anyway as I was restricted to
running Hardy I have taken the plunge and now have Jaunty with KDE3 and KDE
installed. (I have decided 4.3 is OK for me)
So I have the LTSP terminals working OK. But when I boot them into KDE3 Plasma
starts too, as well as a number of duplicated KDE 4 services (or because of
probably).
I added:
export KDEDIRS=/opt/kde3/:/usr/
export XDG_DATA_DIRS=/opt/kde3/share/:/usr/share/
to /opt/kde3/bin/startkde but that makes no difference.
KDE4 performance is poor on LTSP so I can't migrate the users. I call kill off
the KDE4 processes and will train users to do this.
Any ideas how I can stop KDE4 processes starting? Where are they being started
from?
Cheers,
Kevin
--
Kevin Colyer
YWAM National Director (interim)
YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
Avenue Des Celtes, 19
1040 Bruxelles
Belgium
Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
http://www.ywambrussels.be
skype: kevincolyerwork
12 Aug
12 Aug
2:54 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] LTSP kde3 and kde4 - kde3 starts kicker and plasma comes too!
I would also like to say thank you for the kde3 version of Kubuntu. Last
year we migrated 1000 workstations to Linux in our elementary schools and
all of our recently created screenshots and documentation are all using
kde3 and we did not want to rework at this time. In addition we have many
users who are resistant to change ;-)
I have experienced the same problem Kevin has at our site as well. When the
user first logs on both kde3 and kde4
We are using DRBL fat clients at our site rather that LTSP but I am not sure
the problem is related to LTSP. I have a standalone test machine that has
the same behaviour.
A temporary solution is to logout (using the kde3 menu because the kde4
kmenu doesn't seen to respond) Then at the kdm screen select kde session
from the drop down list. The next login should be kde3 only. Another thing
you can do is create a file called .dmrc and put this the users home
directory with the following two lines:
[Desktop]
Session=kde3
--Will Esselink
School District 33
Chilliwack, BC
Canada
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Kevin Colyer <kevin(a)ywambrussels.be> wrote:
Dear All,
Thanks for making KDE3 available for Kubuntu users. I have been running an
LTSP network with KDE3 for several happy users. Anyway as I was restricted
to
running Hardy I have taken the plunge and now have Jaunty with KDE3 and KDE
installed. (I have decided 4.3 is OK for me)
So I have the LTSP terminals working OK. But when I boot them into KDE3
Plasma
starts too, as well as a number of duplicated KDE 4 services (or because of
probably).
I added:
export KDEDIRS=/opt/kde3/:/usr/
export XDG_DATA_DIRS=/opt/kde3/share/:/usr/share/
to /opt/kde3/bin/startkde but that makes no difference.
KDE4 performance is poor on LTSP so I can't migrate the users. I call kill
off
the KDE4 processes and will train users to do this.
Any ideas how I can stop KDE4 processes starting? Where are they being
started
from?
Cheers,
Kevin
--
Kevin Colyer
YWAM National Director (interim)
YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
Avenue Des Celtes, 19
1040 Bruxelles
Belgium
Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
http://www.ywambrussels.be
skype: kevincolyerwork
13 Aug
13 Aug
6:59 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] LTSP kde3 and kde4 - kde3 starts kicker and plasma comes too!
Dear Will,
Thanks for responding. I tried what you said but the user already had a .dmrc
file with the exact contents you described!
I'll keep thinking about it!
Cheers,
Kevin
On Wednesday 12 August 2009, Will Esselink wrote:
I would also like to say thank you for the kde3
version of Kubuntu. Last
year we migrated 1000 workstations to Linux in our elementary schools and
all of our recently created screenshots and documentation are all using
kde3 and we did not want to rework at this time. In addition we have many
users who are resistant to change ;-)
I have experienced the same problem Kevin has at our site as well. When the
user first logs on both kde3 and kde4
We are using DRBL fat clients at our site rather that LTSP but I am not
sure the problem is related to LTSP. I have a standalone test machine that
has the same behaviour.
A temporary solution is to logout (using the kde3 menu because the kde4
kmenu doesn't seen to respond) Then at the kdm screen select kde session
from the drop down list. The next login should be kde3 only. Another thing
you can do is create a file called .dmrc and put this the users home
directory with the following two lines:
[Desktop]
Session=kde3
--Will Esselink
School District 33
Chilliwack, BC
Canada
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Kevin Colyer <kevin(a)ywambrussels.be> wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> Thanks for making KDE3 available for Kubuntu users. I have been running
> an LTSP network with KDE3 for several happy users. Anyway as I was
> restricted to
> running Hardy I have taken the plunge and now have Jaunty with KDE3 and
> KDE installed. (I have decided 4.3 is OK for me)
>
> So I have the LTSP terminals working OK. But when I boot them into KDE3
> Plasma
> starts too, as well as a number of duplicated KDE 4 services (or because
> of probably).
>
> I added:
> export KDEDIRS=/opt/kde3/:/usr/
> export XDG_DATA_DIRS=/opt/kde3/share/:/usr/share/
>
> to /opt/kde3/bin/startkde but that makes no difference.
>
> KDE4 performance is poor on LTSP so I can't migrate the users. I call
> kill off
> the KDE4 processes and will train users to do this.
>
> Any ideas how I can stop KDE4 processes starting? Where are they being
> started
> from?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kevin
>
> --
> Kevin Colyer
> YWAM National Director (interim)
> YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
>
> Avenue Des Celtes, 19
> 1040 Bruxelles
> Belgium
>
> Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
> Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
> GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
> GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
> http://www.ywambrussels.be
> skype: kevincolyerwork
--
Kevin Colyer
YWAM National Director (interim)
YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
Avenue Des Celtes, 19
1040 Bruxelles
Belgium
Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
http://www.ywambrussels.be
skype: kevincolyerwork
4:23 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] LTSP kde3 and kde4 - kde3 starts kicker and plasma comes too!
Kevin and Will,
I assume that the terminal server is running /opt/kde3/bin/startkde
directly in order to load the new session? If so, you need to export
DESKTOP_SESSION=kde3 before running that script--I have modified and
diverted KDE4 files so that they detect that variable, and if set to kde3,
prohibit Plasma from launching at all.
In Karmic, I will set this variable automagically to permanently fix this
bug.
Timothy Pearson
KDE3.5 Maintainer
Dear Will,
Thanks for responding. I tried what you said but the user already had a
.dmrc
file with the exact contents you described!
I'll keep thinking about it!
Cheers,
Kevin
On Wednesday 12 August 2009, Will Esselink wrote:
I would also like to say thank you for the kde3
version of Kubuntu. Last
year we migrated 1000 workstations to Linux in our elementary schools
and
all of our recently created screenshots and documentation are all using
kde3 and we did not want to rework at this time. In addition we have
many
users who are resistant to change ;-)
I have experienced the same problem Kevin has at our site as well. When
the
user first logs on both kde3 and kde4
We are using DRBL fat clients at our site rather that LTSP but I am not
sure the problem is related to LTSP. I have a standalone test machine
that
has the same behaviour.
A temporary solution is to logout (using the kde3 menu because the kde4
kmenu doesn't seen to respond) Then at the kdm screen select kde session
from the drop down list. The next login should be kde3 only. Another
thing
you can do is create a file called .dmrc and put this the users home
directory with the following two lines:
[Desktop]
Session=kde3
--Will Esselink
School District 33
Chilliwack, BC
Canada
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Kevin Colyer <kevin(a)ywambrussels.be>
wrote:
--
Kevin Colyer
YWAM National Director (interim)
YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
Avenue Des Celtes, 19
1040 Bruxelles
Belgium
Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
http://www.ywambrussels.be
skype: kevincolyerwork
Dear All,
Thanks for making KDE3 available for Kubuntu users. I have been
running
an LTSP network with KDE3 for several happy
users. Anyway as I was
restricted to
running Hardy I have taken the plunge and now have Jaunty with KDE3
and
KDE installed. (I have decided 4.3 is OK for me)
So I have the LTSP terminals working OK. But when I boot them into
KDE3
Plasma
starts too, as well as a number of duplicated KDE 4 services (or
because
> of probably).
>
> I added:
> export KDEDIRS=/opt/kde3/:/usr/
> export XDG_DATA_DIRS=/opt/kde3/share/:/usr/share/
>
> to /opt/kde3/bin/startkde but that makes no difference.
>
> KDE4 performance is poor on LTSP so I can't migrate the users. I call
> kill off
> the KDE4 processes and will train users to do this.
>
> Any ideas how I can stop KDE4 processes starting? Where are they being
> started
> from?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kevin
>
> --
> Kevin Colyer
> YWAM National Director (interim)
> YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
>
> Avenue Des Celtes, 19
> 1040 Bruxelles
> Belgium
>
> Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
> Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
> GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
> GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
> http://www.ywambrussels.be
> skype: kevincolyerwork
6:42 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] LTSP kde3 and kde4 - kde3 starts kicker and plasma comes too!
I am using the default init script at starup ( /etc/init.d/kdm-kde3 )
I thought i got around the problem by putting the .dmrc in the users home
but it actually does not help. When i created a new user i seen problem come
back even though i had put a custom .dmrc file in the /etc/skel the
contains:
[Desktop]
Session=kde3
So to recreate the problem
1. Login as a new user (no home directory exists yet)
2. user is presented with kpersonalizer where you can choose make
customizations (doesn't matter if you skip)
3 kde 3 panel loads at the bottom
4 approx 5 secs later kde4 panel loads underneath the kde3 panel
To fix the problem (this is did not work for kevin though. LTSP does some
different things with the display manger though if i remember correctly)
1. logout using the kde3 k menu
2. select session type = kde3 from the kdm drop down menu
3. login
4. kde3 loads properly as expected.
--Will
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 9:23 AM, <kb9vqf(a)pearsoncomputing.net> wrote:
Kevin and Will,
I assume that the terminal server is running /opt/kde3/bin/startkde
directly in order to load the new session? If so, you need to export
DESKTOP_SESSION=kde3 before running that script--I have modified and
diverted KDE4 files so that they detect that variable, and if set to kde3,
prohibit Plasma from launching at all.
In Karmic, I will set this variable automagically to permanently fix this
bug.
Timothy Pearson
KDE3.5 Maintainer
Dear Will,
Thanks for responding. I tried what you said but the user already had a
.dmrc
file with the exact contents you described!
I'll keep thinking about it!
Cheers,
Kevin
On Wednesday 12 August 2009, Will Esselink wrote:
I would also like to say thank you for the kde3
version of Kubuntu. Last
year we migrated 1000 workstations to Linux in our elementary schools
and
all of our recently created screenshots and documentation are all using
kde3 and we did not want to rework at this time. In addition we have
many
users who are resistant to change ;-)
I have experienced the same problem Kevin has at our site as well. When
the
user first logs on both kde3 and kde4
We are using DRBL fat clients at our site rather that LTSP but I am not
sure the problem is related to LTSP. I have a standalone test machine
that
has the same behaviour.
A temporary solution is to logout (using the kde3 menu because the kde4
kmenu doesn't seen to respond) Then at the kdm screen select kde session
from the drop down list. The next login should be kde3 only. Another
thing
you can do is create a file called .dmrc and put this the users home
directory with the following two lines:
[Desktop]
Session=kde3
--Will Esselink
School District 33
Chilliwack, BC
Canada
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Kevin Colyer <kevin(a)ywambrussels.be>
wrote:
--
Kevin Colyer
YWAM National Director (interim)
YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
Avenue Des Celtes, 19
1040 Bruxelles
Belgium
Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
http://www.ywambrussels.be
skype: kevincolyerwork
Dear All,
Thanks for making KDE3 available for Kubuntu users. I have been
running
an LTSP network with KDE3 for several happy
users. Anyway as I was
restricted to
running Hardy I have taken the plunge and now have Jaunty with KDE3
and
KDE installed. (I have decided 4.3 is OK for me)
So I have the LTSP terminals working OK. But when I boot them into
KDE3
Plasma
starts too, as well as a number of duplicated KDE 4 services (or
because
> of probably).
>
> I added:
> export KDEDIRS=/opt/kde3/:/usr/
> export XDG_DATA_DIRS=/opt/kde3/share/:/usr/share/
>
> to /opt/kde3/bin/startkde but that makes no difference.
>
> KDE4 performance is poor on LTSP so I can't migrate the users. I call
> kill off
> the KDE4 processes and will train users to do this.
>
> Any ideas how I can stop KDE4 processes starting? Where are they being
> started
> from?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kevin
>
> --
> Kevin Colyer
> YWAM National Director (interim)
> YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
>
> Avenue Des Celtes, 19
> 1040 Bruxelles
> Belgium
>
> Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
> Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
> GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
> GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
> http://www.ywambrussels.be
> skype: kevincolyerwork
9:46 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] LTSP kde3 and kde4 - kde3 starts kicker and plasma comes too!
I believe i have found the problem with the kde4 components getting loaded.
In the /usr/share/autostart directory I have 4 .desktop files:
krunner.desktop
kwrited.desktop
nepomukserver.desktop
plasma.desktop
I removed all of these and the problems seem to have gone away.
As an aside. I opened an old vmware image that i was using for develoment to
compare and the directory /usr/share/autostart is empty. I am not sure where
these files on my current production image introduced? I have not explicitly
addded any other kde components that I can remember. ( perhaps some
dependencies got pulled in during a dist-upgrade ? )
--Will Esselink
School District 33
Chilliwack, BC
Canada
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Will Esselink <willesselink(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
I am using the default init script at starup (
/etc/init.d/kdm-kde3 )
I thought i got around the problem by putting the .dmrc in the users home
but it actually does not help. When i created a new user i seen problem come
back even though i had put a custom .dmrc file in the /etc/skel the
contains:
[Desktop]
Session=kde3
So to recreate the problem
1. Login as a new user (no home directory exists yet)
2. user is presented with kpersonalizer where you can choose make
customizations (doesn't matter if you skip)
3 kde 3 panel loads at the bottom
4 approx 5 secs later kde4 panel loads underneath the kde3 panel
To fix the problem (this is did not work for kevin though. LTSP does some
different things with the display manger though if i remember correctly)
1. logout using the kde3 k menu
2. select session type = kde3 from the kdm drop down menu
3. login
4. kde3 loads properly as expected.
--Will
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 9:23 AM, <kb9vqf(a)pearsoncomputing.net> wrote:
Kevin and Will,
I assume that the terminal server is running /opt/kde3/bin/startkde
directly in order to load the new session? If so, you need to export
DESKTOP_SESSION=kde3 before running that script--I have modified and
diverted KDE4 files so that they detect that variable, and if set to kde3,
prohibit Plasma from launching at all.
In Karmic, I will set this variable automagically to permanently fix this
bug.
Timothy Pearson
KDE3.5 Maintainer
Dear Will,
Thanks for responding. I tried what you said but the user already had a
.dmrc
file with the exact contents you described!
I'll keep thinking about it!
Cheers,
Kevin
On Wednesday 12 August 2009, Will Esselink wrote:
> I would also like to say thank you for the kde3 version of Kubuntu.
Last
> year we migrated 1000 workstations to Linux
in our elementary schools
> and
> all of our recently created screenshots and documentation are all using
> kde3 and we did not want to rework at this time. In addition we have
> many
> users who are resistant to change ;-)
>
>
> I have experienced the same problem Kevin has at our site as well. When
> the
> user first logs on both kde3 and kde4
>
> We are using DRBL fat clients at our site rather that LTSP but I am not
> sure the problem is related to LTSP. I have a standalone test machine
> that
> has the same behaviour.
>
> A temporary solution is to logout (using the kde3 menu because the kde4
> kmenu doesn't seen to respond) Then at the kdm screen select kde
session
> from the drop down list. The next login
should be kde3 only. Another
> thing
> you can do is create a file called .dmrc and put this the users home
> directory with the following two lines:
>
> [Desktop]
> Session=kde3
>
>
>
> --Will Esselink
> School District 33
> Chilliwack, BC
> Canada
>
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Kevin Colyer <kevin(a)ywambrussels.be>
> wrote:
> > Dear All,
> >
> > Thanks for making KDE3 available for Kubuntu users. I have been
> running
> > an LTSP network with KDE3 for several happy users. Anyway as I was
> > restricted to
> > running Hardy I have taken the plunge and now have Jaunty with KDE3
> and
> > KDE installed. (I have decided 4.3 is OK for me)
> >
> > So I have the LTSP terminals working OK. But when I boot them into
> KDE3
> > Plasma
> > starts too, as well as a number of duplicated KDE 4 services (or
> because
> > of probably).
> >
> > I added:
> > export KDEDIRS=/opt/kde3/:/usr/
> > export XDG_DATA_DIRS=/opt/kde3/share/:/usr/share/
> >
> > to /opt/kde3/bin/startkde but that makes no difference.
> >
> > KDE4 performance is poor on LTSP so I can't migrate the users. I call
> > kill off
> > the KDE4 processes and will train users to do this.
> >
> > Any ideas how I can stop KDE4 processes starting? Where are they
being
>
started
> from?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kevin
>
> --
> Kevin Colyer
> YWAM National Director (interim)
> YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
>
> Avenue Des Celtes, 19
> 1040 Bruxelles
> Belgium
>
> Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
> Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
> GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
> GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
> http://www.ywambrussels.be
> skype: kevincolyerwork
--
Kevin Colyer
YWAM National Director (interim)
YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
Avenue Des Celtes, 19
1040 Bruxelles
Belgium
Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
http://www.ywambrussels.be
skype: kevincolyerwork
1:52 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] LTSP kde3 and kde4 - kde3 starts kicker and plasma comes too!
Dear Will,
I have mostly solved the problem now. I am not very proud of the solution but
it seems to work!
I created a file killkde4 in /opt/kde3/share
#!/bin/bash
killall kdeinit4
killall knotify4
killall nepomukserver
killall plasma-desktop.kde4
killall kded4 #for good luck
killall kdeinit4 # for more good luck
Then I made a kill kde4.desktop file in /opt/kde3/share/autostart
[Desktop Entry]
Comment=
Comment[en_GB]=
Exec[$e]='/opt/kde3/share/killkde4'
GenericName=
GenericName[en_GB]=
Icon=exec
MimeType=
Name=Kill Kde4
Name[en_GB]=Kill Kde4
Path[$e]=
StartupNotify=true
Terminal=false
TerminalOptions=
Type=Application
X-DCOP-ServiceType=
X-KDE-SubstituteUID=false
X-KDE-Username=
This killed off the kde4 stuff fairly well. I need to look at it long term.
Some Akonadi migrations stuff still happened but it went away again and the
whole desktop improved.
RE KDE4 I have had a go a making it work faster with LTSP. I think the problem
comes with all the lovely gradients etc. as they are all rendered at the
server end and sent down the wire to the LTSP client. Perhaps NX works better
here at caching textures but this is what I have done and it makes a marked
difference:
* Set the KDE 4 Splash screen to simple
* Change the Widgets to Plastik
* Change the Window theme to Plastik
* Turn konqueror homepage to blank or home folder
* Plasma: change the desktop to Folder-view and remove all plasmoids.
* I picked a different theme and found "Solid" to work quickly.
* Change the Kickoff menu to Classic menu.
Turning all this off makes a surprising difference. I do love all the shades
and graphical fancies from KDE4 but for LTSP use we need to have a KDE4
slimline theming system for Plasma, widgets and windows. I wonder if anyone is
working on it?
Any other ideas?
Regards,
Kevin
On Wednesday 12 August 2009, Will Esselink wrote:
I would also like to say thank you for the kde3
version of Kubuntu. Last
year we migrated 1000 workstations to Linux in our elementary schools and
all of our recently created screenshots and documentation are all using
kde3 and we did not want to rework at this time. In addition we have many
users who are resistant to change ;-)
I have experienced the same problem Kevin has at our site as well. When the
user first logs on both kde3 and kde4
We are using DRBL fat clients at our site rather that LTSP but I am not
sure the problem is related to LTSP. I have a standalone test machine that
has the same behaviour.
A temporary solution is to logout (using the kde3 menu because the kde4
kmenu doesn't seen to respond) Then at the kdm screen select kde session
from the drop down list. The next login should be kde3 only. Another thing
you can do is create a file called .dmrc and put this the users home
directory with the following two lines:
[Desktop]
Session=kde3
--Will Esselink
School District 33
Chilliwack, BC
Canada
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Kevin Colyer <kevin(a)ywambrussels.be> wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> Thanks for making KDE3 available for Kubuntu users. I have been running
> an LTSP network with KDE3 for several happy users. Anyway as I was
> restricted to
> running Hardy I have taken the plunge and now have Jaunty with KDE3 and
> KDE installed. (I have decided 4.3 is OK for me)
>
> So I have the LTSP terminals working OK. But when I boot them into KDE3
> Plasma
> starts too, as well as a number of duplicated KDE 4 services (or because
> of probably).
>
> I added:
> export KDEDIRS=/opt/kde3/:/usr/
> export XDG_DATA_DIRS=/opt/kde3/share/:/usr/share/
>
> to /opt/kde3/bin/startkde but that makes no difference.
>
> KDE4 performance is poor on LTSP so I can't migrate the users. I call
> kill off
> the KDE4 processes and will train users to do this.
>
> Any ideas how I can stop KDE4 processes starting? Where are they being
> started
> from?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kevin
>
> --
> Kevin Colyer
> YWAM National Director (interim)
> YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
>
> Avenue Des Celtes, 19
> 1040 Bruxelles
> Belgium
>
> Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
> Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
> GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
> GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
> http://www.ywambrussels.be
> skype: kevincolyerwork
--
Kevin Colyer
YWAM National Director (interim)
YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
Avenue Des Celtes, 19
1040 Bruxelles
Belgium
Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
http://www.ywambrussels.be
skype: kevincolyerwork
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kb9vqf＠pearsoncomputing.net -
Kevin Colyer -
Will Esselink