28 Oct
2021
28 Oct
'21
6:13 a.m.
Hi all!
One of these GNOMEs just hit me with a club again: By unknown reason polkitd & udisksd
do not start on system startup - and I don't find the reason why. I have to place in
my rc.local:
/usr/libexec/polkitd &
/usr/libexec/udisks2/udisksd &
Then at least mounting/unmounting works. NetworkManager does not work - it complains about
insufficient permissions. Now his system was not used for ~ 5 months and it did not show
these problems prior to the update.
Anybody has a clue where to start? Oh, and it's devuan chimera.
Nik
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28 Oct
28 Oct
6:58 a.m.
On Wednesday 27 October 2021 23:13:29 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Hi all!
One of these GNOMEs just hit me with a club again: By unknown reason
polkitd & udisksd do not start on system startup - and I don't find the
reason why. I have to place in my rc.local:
/usr/libexec/polkitd &
/usr/libexec/udisks2/udisksd &
There was some problem I had with udisks and polkitd, and I seem to recall
finding a workaround. I'm not sure it's the same problem, but if you want me
to look for my workaround, I think I still have it.
Right now I don't have that problem, so it has been a year or two since I did
any of this.
Then at least mounting/unmounting works. NetworkManager does not work - it
complains about insufficient permissions. Now his system was not used for ~
5 months and it did not show these problems prior to the update.
Anybody has a clue where to start? Oh, and it's devuan chimera.
Nik
tdenetworkmanager has not worked properly for me since, to be honest, the
beginning of TDE. For a while, back when I was still running Debian/Devuan
Jessie (I believe that's when I changed to Devuan), tdenetworkmanager would
work okay about every third or fourth time that I reinstalled my system.
Since upgrading to Devuan Beowulf, though, tdenetworkmanager has *never*
worked properly. I get that same error as Nik reports.
Otherwise, I just gave up and started using wicd with wicd-gtk, and it has
been dependable enough that I don't care whether this one TDE application
works or not.
Bill
2 Nov
2 Nov
8:10 a.m.
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
tdenetworkmanager has not worked properly for me
since, to be honest, the
beginning of TDE. For a while, back when I was still running Debian/Devuan
Jessie (I believe that's when I changed to Devuan), tdenetworkmanager
would work okay about every third or fourth time that I reinstalled my
system. Since upgrading to Devuan Beowulf, though, tdenetworkmanager has
*never* worked properly. I get that same error as Nik reports.
ahm I think because it relays on networkmanager, which relays on systemd
On the notebook systemd + all the other stuff works fine.
On the server sysvinit + all the other stuff works fine - but here no
networkmanager or whatever is needed
9 Nov
9 Nov
10:22 p.m.
On Tuesday 02 November 2021 01:10:23 deloptes wrote:
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Sorry to take so long in my reply. I am still in the midst of moving house.
Now that you tell me that networkmanager depends on systemd, that makes sense,
and explains why tdenetworkmanager has stopped working after about Jessie. (I
am running Devuan, by the way.)
Now the problem is, how to get a networkmanager that actually works for me
that doesn't depend on systemd. I can only assume that the people at Devuan
know about this, so maybe they will come up with a solution, or somebody will
find some workarounds.
As for me, systemd is a deal-breaker. My machine would always hang, and there
was nothing I could do but to reboot constantly. Since using Devuan and init,
no problems at all.
I note the recent discussion about wicd, and I believe that *extremist* may be
too extreme a word to describe deloptes, as I have got some good pointers in
the past. We all like what works best for us, and we tend to project our
views on others.
For anybody who is stuck between those choices, I would note that the packages
for wicd are still available (sometimes for older releases), and so far they
still work fine. I myself save my packages, so that I can install without an
internet connection.
If there are other solutions, I would like to hear them, because so far TDE
works great, except for tdenetworkmanager. It would be nice if this did not
depend on neworkmanager, and thus systemd. Is there any hope of a non-systemd
networkmanager, if wicd becomes useless?
:-\
Bill
tdenetworkmanager has not worked properly for me
since, to be honest, the
beginning of TDE. For a while, back when I was still running
Debian/Devuan Jessie (I believe that's when I changed to Devuan),
tdenetworkmanager would work okay about every third or fourth time that I
reinstalled my system. Since upgrading to Devuan Beowulf, though,
tdenetworkmanager has *never* worked properly. I get that same error as
Nik reports.
ahm I think because it relays on networkmanager, which relays on systemd
On the notebook systemd + all the other stuff works fine.
On the server sysvinit + all the other stuff works fine - but here no
networkmanager or whatever is needed
11:05 p.m.
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
As for me, systemd is a deal-breaker. My machine would
always hang, and
there was nothing I could do but to reboot constantly. Since using Devuan
and init, no problems at all.
just a short answer.
Now 11/9/2021 systemd is fine to use. I also postponed adopting it for few
years, but I setup couple of requirements and at some point of time it beat
them. So ATM I am using it on the Desktop and Notebook. On the server and
firewall I do not see any benefit, so I use sysvinit-core.
What Devuan does is to be respected, but IMO it is waist of time. Those
precious resources could be used to improve Debian itself.
Sure there are and will be issues with systemd, but for now in Debian stable
it is unlikely as systemd is already mature enough.
I am not advocating for systemd, but after studying the backgrounds and why
it was adopted by all major distros, it really makes sense (even on
servers)
Anyway - this is my PoV, my thoughts and my experience.
11:27 p.m.
On Tuesday 09 November 2021 15:05:00 deloptes wrote:
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
It's good to hear your opinion in some depth. I like to weigh different sides
so that I can make choices. I am not techie enough to dig into why Debian or
Devuan; I only know what makes sense in terms of their stated philosophy, and
ultimately, what works best for me.
I've read some of the background of the "political" mess and various
personal
scandals at Debian, and I wondered why a person's private life should affect
their organization, or why should that have any bearing on whether they go
with systemd or not. Maybe you know about these incidents?
Anyway, it was for me more a problem of philosophy; that systemd tried to do
too much, things which went against the rules laid down for Debian itself
from the start.
Whether any of those other things matter is, it seems to me, pointless. My
only real test is what works for me, and so far the new systemd Debian
doesn't. Now, sometime in the (near?) future I plan to get into a bigger
place to live, where I can have enough space to run several machines to do
their various things. And then, I imagine, I will try out some other distros,
and I'll probably give Debian a try. But since I don't have much space, I
confine myself to a single machine, and it doesn't seem to like Debian.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Bill
As for me, systemd is a deal-breaker. My machine
would always hang, and
there was nothing I could do but to reboot constantly. Since using Devuan
and init, no problems at all.
just a short answer.
Now 11/9/2021 systemd is fine to use. I also postponed adopting it for few
years, but I setup couple of requirements and at some point of time it beat
them. So ATM I am using it on the Desktop and Notebook. On the server and
firewall I do not see any benefit, so I use sysvinit-core.
What Devuan does is to be respected, but IMO it is waist of time. Those
precious resources could be used to improve Debian itself.
Sure there are and will be issues with systemd, but for now in Debian
stable it is unlikely as systemd is already mature enough.
I am not advocating for systemd, but after studying the backgrounds and why
it was adopted by all major distros, it really makes sense (even on
servers)
Anyway - this is my PoV, my thoughts and my experience.
10 Nov
10 Nov
7:14 a.m.
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
It's good to hear your opinion in some depth. I
like to weigh different
sides so that I can make choices. I am not techie enough to dig into why
Debian or Devuan; I only know what makes sense in terms of their stated
philosophy, and ultimately, what works best for me.
I've read some of the background of the "political" mess and various
personal scandals at Debian, and I wondered why a person's private life
should affect their organization, or why should that have any bearing on
whether they go with systemd or not. Maybe you know about these incidents?
No, I did not have time to learn why Debian adopted it nor I had time to
read about personal issues in Debian.
I read the arguments why systemd is needed and why it was decided to be
adopted (these are the same arguments leading to this fact), which brings
me to your next point.
Anyway, it was for me more a problem of philosophy;
that systemd tried to
do too much, things which went against the rules laid down for Debian
itself from the start.
At the end you would agree that systemd is not exactly
trying to do too
much. It is responding to a need, which is "there is too much to do".
A dynamic computer like Desktop or Notebook needs an application such as
systemd. If systemd and its design/implementation are the best fit to this
need, I do not know.
I just can hope the people behind are mature enough to do something useful
(although some of the stories I read make me believe some of them are
lunatics)
Never mind, at the end I had same thinking as you and saw where the journey
was going.
I live and work in 2021. I work with computers and servers, I earn money
with it. It is inevitable to know systemd. The more you know it, the better
you understand it. At the end a kind of relationship develops.
My server at home with pure old init, feels like archaic today. But I have
only couple of services running there, that do not require the dynamics of
systemd
Whether any of those other things matter is, it seems to me, pointless. My
only real test is what works for me, and so far the new systemd Debian
doesn't. Now, sometime in the (near?) future I plan to get into a bigger
place to live, where I can have enough space to run several machines to do
their various things. And then, I imagine, I will try out some other
distros, and I'll probably give Debian a try. But since I don't have much
space, I confine myself to a single machine, and it doesn't seem to like
Debian.
It usually takes one USB stick with the size of a thumb nail to try Debian,
but I am not telling you what to do.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
You are welcome
11:17 p.m.
It usually takes one USB stick with the size of a
thumb nail to try Debian,
but I am not telling you what to do.
I have been "trying" Debian since version 6.x (I forget the code name); but as
I was changing from Kubuntu, I needed to learn a few things, and never got it
working quite right. Only with Jessie did I have success, but as I said,
networking became a problem.
At last I switched to Devuan, starting with Jessie, and suddenly everything
worked! It was like magic, only without the need for blood sacrifices and all
that. The biggest problem was always with the network.
Now wicd will be obsolete? They (whoever "they" are) really don't want me to
connect to the internet.
Bill
11 Nov
11 Nov
2:19 a.m.
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
At last I switched to Devuan, starting with Jessie,
and suddenly
everything worked! It was like magic, only without the need for blood
sacrifices and all that. The biggest problem was always with the network.
might be coincidence, because after jessie many things started working, but
hey we have choices and whatever works is the best
Now wicd will be obsolete? They (whoever
"they" are) really don't want me
to connect to the internet.
I still believe network manager became stable and is the way to go if you
need dynamic network management. Even if you do not like tdenetworkmanager,
you could learn network manager. It has CLI, ncurses and all kind of other
guis.
IF you have static network - the old /etc/network/interfaces still works,
but if you have wireless it could be a pain
BR
10 Nov
10 Nov
7:46 p.m.
On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:22:05 -0800
William Morder via tde-users <users(a)trinitydesktop.org> wrote:
If there are other solutions, I would like to hear
them, because so far TDE
works great, except for tdenetworkmanager. It would be nice if this did not
depend on neworkmanager, and thus systemd. Is there any hope of a non-systemd
networkmanager, if wicd becomes useless?
networkmanager is not, in fact, dependent on systemd as such—elogind should
be an acceptable substitute (if it isn't, it's because of the way your distro has
compiled it, not some innate feature of the program).
dhcpcd, with wpa_supplicant for wireless support, should be an adequate alternative
for most normal networking cases, although dhcpcd doesn't have a GUI (configuring
it should be something you need to do only once, though—mostly it just needs to
know what network card to bind to), and wpa_supplicant's GUI wasn't great as
of some years ago when I last needed to use it. Neither should care what init system
they're running on, though.
If you've got a desktop, you may not need any of the above—I'm not sure
how Devuan operates, but Gentoo provides enough support for static wired
network configurations in the netifrc base package, although you need to know
things like the netmask and gateway address for your LAN to use it effectively.
E. Liddell
11:24 p.m.
On Wednesday 10 November 2021 11:46:01 E. Liddell wrote:
On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:22:05 -0800
William Morder via tde-users <users(a)trinitydesktop.org> wrote:
Yes, I use a self-built Frankenstein desktop, although I am looking for a
laptop, probably a Lenovo something, which looks best for me according to
what I've been reading online.
If it comes down to no wicd, that would be fine if I can still use TDE, as I
like to stick with Trinity where I can. At least this gives me some clue
about how to make it work.
For future TDE development, it would be nice to imagine that tdenetworkmanager
will work with both systemd and init, for those who care.
Maybe Santa Claus reads this mailing list?
Bill
If there are other solutions, I would like to
hear them, because so far
TDE works great, except for tdenetworkmanager. It would be nice if this
did not depend on neworkmanager, and thus systemd. Is there any hope of a
non-systemd networkmanager, if wicd becomes useless?
networkmanager is not, in fact, dependent on systemd as such—elogind should
be an acceptable substitute (if it isn't, it's because of the way your
distro has compiled it, not some innate feature of the program).
dhcpcd, with wpa_supplicant for wireless support, should be an adequate
alternative for most normal networking cases, although dhcpcd doesn't have
a GUI (configuring it should be something you need to do only once,
though—mostly it just needs to know what network card to bind to), and
wpa_supplicant's GUI wasn't great as of some years ago when I last needed
to use it. Neither should care what init system they're running on,
though.
If you've got a desktop, you may not need any of the above—I'm not sure
how Devuan operates, but Gentoo provides enough support for static wired
network configurations in the netifrc base package, although you need to
know things like the netmask and gateway address for your LAN to use it
effectively.
E. Liddell
891
days inactive
905
days old
11 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
deloptes -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
E. Liddell -
Stefan Krusche -
William Morder