26 Feb
2022
26 Feb
'22
12:01 a.m.
One more try...
On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 14:22 (-0800), William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Now all of a sudden this issue, with almost none of my
usual browsers able to
start up at all: it's blind-sided me, and I don't even know where to look for
the cause.
I'm still curious as to what exactly that means.
If you open a terminal window and try to start (for example) firefox,
by typing
firefox
to the shell prompt and pressing the enter key, *exactly* what
happens? Saying "doesn't start" is vague to the point of meaninglessness.
(Or opera or vivaldi or whatever browser you like.)
Does the shell say something like "command not found"?
Does the shell report the browser crashed?
Do you get a prompt back, but no window shows up on your screen?
Do you not get a prompt back?
Are there absolutely no error messages or similar that show up in your
terminal window?
Note that unless you have a very long window, a process that isn't
using much CPU time might be far enough down the list that you won't
see it with top or htop. If you really want to know whether it is
there, open a second terminal window and try typing the command
ps axuw | grep firefox
(or grep for whatever browser you tried to start that "isn't
starting") and let us know what it says.
Jim
26 Feb
26 Feb
12:19 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Friday 25 February 2022 16:01:41 Jim wrote:
One more try...
On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 14:22 (-0800), William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Sorry, but I have never had a problem quite like this. I don't even know where
to begin. I've been running TDE since about 2010, off and on, and KDE3 before
that from about 2006. This is a first for me.
As it happens, I have been experimenting with just that approach. Here is what
I get from trying to start Firefox from a konsole window.
$ firefox
(firefox-esr:19742): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:12:42.109: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected.
Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
ExceptionHandler::GenerateDump cloned child
ExceptionHandler::WaitForContinueSignal waiting for continue signal...
19749
ExceptionHandler::SendContinueSignalToChild sent continue signal to child
Trace/breakpoint trap
Vivaldi gives even less information:
$ vivaldi-snapshot
(vivaldi-snapshot:20029): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:14:29.797: GTK+ 2.x symbols
detected. Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
Trace/breakpoint trap
$ midori
(midori:20520): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:17:48.267: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected. Using
GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
Trace/breakpoint trap
I could go on, but it seems to be this problem with gtk2 and gtk3.
Thanks for your interest.
Bill
Now all of a sudden this issue, with almost none
of my usual browsers
able to start up at all: it's blind-sided me, and I don't even know where
to look for the cause.
I'm still curious as to what exactly that means.
If you open a terminal window and try to start (for example) firefox,
by typing
firefox
to the shell prompt and pressing the enter key, *exactly* what
happens? Saying "doesn't start" is vague to the point of meaninglessness.
(Or opera or vivaldi or whatever browser you like.)
Does the shell say something like "command not found"?
Does the shell report the browser crashed?
Do you get a prompt back, but no window shows up on your screen?
Do you not get a prompt back?
Are there absolutely no error messages or similar that show up in your
terminal window?
Note that unless you have a very long window, a process that isn't
using much CPU time might be far enough down the list that you won't
see it with top or htop. If you really want to know whether it is
there, open a second terminal window and try typing the command
ps axuw | grep firefox
(or grep for whatever browser you tried to start that "isn't
starting") and let us know what it says.
Jim
12:59 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
Now we might be getting somewhere...
On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 16:19 (-0800), William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Friday 25 February 2022 16:01:41 Jim wrote:
> One more try...
> I'm still curious as to what exactly that
means.
> If you open a terminal window and try to start
(for example) firefox,
> by typing
> firefox
> to the shell prompt and pressing the enter key, *exactly* what
> happens? Saying "doesn't start" is vague to the point of
meaninglessness.
> (Or opera or vivaldi or whatever browser you
like.)
> Does the shell say something like "command
not found"?
> Does the shell report the browser crashed?
> Do you get a prompt back, but no window shows up
on your screen?
> Do you not get a prompt back?
> Are there absolutely no error messages or similar
that show up in your
> terminal window?
Sorry, but I have never had a problem quite like this.
I don't even know where
to begin. I've been running TDE since about 2010, off and on, and KDE3 before
that from about 2006. This is a first for me.
As it happens, I have been experimenting with just
that approach. Here is what
I get from trying to start Firefox from a konsole window.
$ firefox
(firefox-esr:19742): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:12:42.109: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected.
Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
ExceptionHandler::GenerateDump cloned child
ExceptionHandler::WaitForContinueSignal waiting for continue signal...
19749
ExceptionHandler::SendContinueSignalToChild sent continue signal to child
Trace/breakpoint trap
I've never seen an error specifically like that before. Having said
that, the error message is reasonably informative.
On my system (Slackware64 15.0) firefox uses libgtk-3.so.0. How
exactly your version of firefox is (presumably) linking to libgtk2 is
an interesting question, but my offhand guess is that you have somehow
ended up with an inconsistent set of libraries, and some other library
that firefox (and your other browsers) pull in has been linked against
gtk2, rather than gtk3.
On my system a running firefox has 95 dynamic libraries pulled in, and
tracking through which of yours loads in gtk2 might be quite the hunt.
Or not...
On my system firefox is the following shell script:
------------------------------------------------------------
#!/bin/sh
#
# Shell script to start Mozilla Firefox.
#
# Don't reset the user profile on a detected browser downgrade:
export MOZ_ALLOW_DOWNGRADE=1
# Start Firefox:
exec /usr/lib64/firefox/firefox "$@"
------------------------------------------------------------
If yours is similar (note that you might have lib instead of lib64,
for example), you could try
env MOZ_ALLOW_DOWNGRADE=1 strace /usr/lib64/firefox/firefox |& less
and then use
/libgtk2
to find where one of the gtks is loaded in, type
u
to go up half a page and see if you can figure out a recently-loaded
library which might itself be loading gtk2. If you find that, then
maybe you have found the guilty party. But then you'd have to decide
why it is guilty, and whether you have installed an inconsistent
version of the guilty library.
Admittedly, the above is neither for the faint of heart nor for people
who have no idea about what the output of "strace" means.
Good luck, you might need it.
Jim
8:57 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
Anno domini 2022 Fri, 25 Feb 16:19:44 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Friday 25 February 2022 16:01:41 Jim wrote:
Ok, that says a lot. You'll not be able to use those builds with GTK2 and GTK3 mixed
in any more. Say thank you to all the GNOMES out there.
Nik
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
One more try...
On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 14:22 (-0800), William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Sorry, but I have never had a problem quite like this. I don't even know where
to begin. I've been running TDE since about 2010, off and on, and KDE3 before
that from about 2006. This is a first for me.
As it happens, I have been experimenting with just that approach. Here is what
I get from trying to start Firefox from a konsole window.
$ firefox
(firefox-esr:19742): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:12:42.109: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected.
Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
ExceptionHandler::GenerateDump cloned child
ExceptionHandler::WaitForContinueSignal waiting for continue signal...
19749
ExceptionHandler::SendContinueSignalToChild sent continue signal to child
Trace/breakpoint trap
Vivaldi gives even less information:
$ vivaldi-snapshot
(vivaldi-snapshot:20029): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:14:29.797: GTK+ 2.x symbols
detected. Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
Trace/breakpoint trap
$ midori
(midori:20520): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:17:48.267: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected. Using
GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
Trace/breakpoint trap
I could go on, but it seems to be this problem with gtk2 and gtk3.
Thanks for your interest.
Bill
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Now all of a sudden this issue, with almost none
of my usual browsers
able to start up at all: it's blind-sided me, and I don't even know where
to look for the cause.
I'm still curious as to what exactly that means.
If you open a terminal window and try to start (for example) firefox,
by typing
firefox
to the shell prompt and pressing the enter key, *exactly* what
happens? Saying "doesn't start" is vague to the point of meaninglessness.
(Or opera or vivaldi or whatever browser you like.)
Does the shell say something like "command not found"?
Does the shell report the browser crashed?
Do you get a prompt back, but no window shows up on your screen?
Do you not get a prompt back?
Are there absolutely no error messages or similar that show up in your
terminal window?
Note that unless you have a very long window, a process that isn't
using much CPU time might be far enough down the list that you won't
see it with top or htop. If you really want to know whether it is
there, open a second terminal window and try typing the command
ps axuw | grep firefox
(or grep for whatever browser you tried to start that "isn't
starting") and let us know what it says.
Jim 
12:25 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 04:19:44PM -0800, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
$ firefox
(firefox-esr:19742): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:12:42.109: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected.
Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
There should be no possible way to get that error from a fresh
installation (or re-installation, from scratch) of the OS. That would
suggest that either Devuan is broken out of the box, or you have not
actually done a fresh re-installation of the OS, and have ended up with
some parts of the old OS and some of the new.
The error you are getting is a sign that your applications (Firefox,
Vivaldi, even xfce4-terminal) are simultaneously linked to both the
GTK+2 and GTK+3 libraries, which is a no-no. That normally only happens
when you incompletely upgrade and end up with the application relying on
some old libraries from pre-upgrade and some new from post-upgrade.
See this five year old thread:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/06/msg00314.html
I doubt that Devuan would put out a stable release that was so seriously
broken that you can't even launch a web browser or terminal. But what do
I know, maybe that is normal for Devuan?
"Sorry, we got our package dependencies completely wrong *again*,
and installed the wrong versions of libraries all over the place!!!
Oops, our bad, LOL smiley-face tears-of-laughter heart heart."
Not very likely.
Oh I don't know. I've never installed Debian or Devuan. Maybe this is
normal for them.
This is clearly not a TDE issue. It is a severe and massive breakage of
your Devuan system, one which affects multiple applications. You should
be asking for help on Devuan forums where people are more likely to give
you specific Devuan advice.
--
Steve
2:02 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 16:19:44 -0800
William Morder via tde-users <users(a)trinitydesktop.org> wrote:
Sorry, but I have never had a problem quite like this.
I don't even know where
to begin. I've been running TDE since about 2010, off and on, and KDE3 before
that from about 2006. This is a first for me.
As it happens, I have been experimenting with just that approach. Here is what
I get from trying to start Firefox from a konsole window.
$ firefox
(firefox-esr:19742): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:12:42.109: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected.
Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
ExceptionHandler::GenerateDump cloned child
ExceptionHandler::WaitForContinueSignal waiting for continue signal...
19749
ExceptionHandler::SendContinueSignalToChild sent continue signal to child
Trace/breakpoint trap
Vivaldi gives even less information:
$ vivaldi-snapshot
(vivaldi-snapshot:20029): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:14:29.797: GTK+ 2.x symbols
detected. Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
Trace/breakpoint trap
$ midori
(midori:20520): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:17:48.267: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected. Using
GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
Trace/breakpoint trap
I could go on, but it seems to be this problem with gtk2 and gtk3.
Things which may or may not be of use to you in sorting this out:
I remember similar error messages showing up in the past when one of the
impose-TDE-visual-settings-on-GTK optional bits malfunctioned, so uninstall
those if you have them. (I thought that bug had been fixed, though.)
Pale Moon probably works because it's still GTK2-primary, so no GTK3.
links apparently doesn't use a toolkit and calls X stuff directly.
Vivaldi has a direct runtime dependency on the at-spi-bus crud.
E. Liddell
3:57 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Saturday 26 February 2022 06:02:51 E. Liddell wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 16:19:44 -0800
William Morder via tde-users <users(a)trinitydesktop.org> wrote:
I get a bad feeling that I may be just the canary in the coal mine. I've
already tried uninstalling gtk3-tqt-engine-trinity, although it keeps
returning when I go through reinstallation, probably because I don't notice
it among a lot of other dependencies. (And I only ever use hard dependencies,
no recommends, etc. If I want those extra things, then I do a search to see
what else will get installed.)
So I have several times installed, by accident or otherwise,
gtk3-tqt-engine-trinity, then removed it again; yet through it all I've never
encountered these problems until just a few days ago when I did an upgrade
using the TDE stable repositories. (I did try out PSB repos, but I got a
problem with Kmail crashing, so I figured it was just a bug, and went back to
the stable builds.)
As for the freshness of my installation, I am using the same Devuan Chimaera
disk image that I put on a brand-new flash drive using dd. It is the same
image and same flash drive that I have been using for installation since I
got this laptop in early December of 2021.
The only significant thing that has changed, so far as I can tell, is to
remove non-free and contrib from the sources.list, because I don't seem to
need those things to make my network usable and reliable.
Next thing, I suppose, is to try enabling those items in my sources.list.
First, however, I will try booting into the xfce desktop, just to see if I
can use those browsers with xfce.
And by the way, I just went through three or four complete new installations
over the past few days, and nothing changes, still got this problem. Last
night I reinstalled, and was careful to keep everything to the bare minimum
(or at least, what always worked).
I am wondering if anybody else has done a fresh installation of Devuan
Chimaera recently, or something close to my own OS. My hunch is that this
apparent conflict between gtk2 and gtk3 will start to affect other TDE users.
Bill
Sorry, but I have never had a problem quite like
this. I don't even know
where to begin. I've been running TDE since about 2010, off and on, and
KDE3 before that from about 2006. This is a first for me.
As it happens, I have been experimenting with just that approach. Here is
what I get from trying to start Firefox from a konsole window.
$ firefox
(firefox-esr:19742): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:12:42.109: GTK+ 2.x symbols
detected. Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
ExceptionHandler::GenerateDump cloned child
ExceptionHandler::WaitForContinueSignal waiting for continue signal...
19749
ExceptionHandler::SendContinueSignalToChild sent continue signal to child
Trace/breakpoint trap
Vivaldi gives even less information:
$ vivaldi-snapshot
(vivaldi-snapshot:20029): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:14:29.797: GTK+ 2.x symbols
detected. Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
Trace/breakpoint trap
$ midori
(midori:20520): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:17:48.267: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected.
Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
Trace/breakpoint trap
I could go on, but it seems to be this problem with gtk2 and gtk3.
Things which may or may not be of use to you in sorting this out:
I remember similar error messages showing up in the past when one of the
impose-TDE-visual-settings-on-GTK optional bits malfunctioned, so uninstall
those if you have them. (I thought that bug had been fixed, though.)
Pale Moon probably works because it's still GTK2-primary, so no GTK3.
links apparently doesn't use a toolkit and calls X stuff directly.
Vivaldi has a direct runtime dependency on the at-spi-bus crud.
E. Liddell
5:06 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
Anno domini 2022 Sat, 26 Feb 07:57:39 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
[...]
I am wondering if anybody else has done a fresh installation of Devuan
Chimaera recently, or something close to my own OS. My hunch is that this
apparent conflict between gtk2 and gtk3 will start to affect other TDE users.
I have installed devuan daedalus on a t470 and on my ryzen, basicly without issues
(madness of freedesktop GNOMEs does not count). GTK2 is still there, firfox-esr works as
expected. My last chimaera installation was in December - again without problems. But I
have to say that I only use programs from the repositories, not from 3rd party sites, so
palemoon, iceweasle etc. are not installed.
So I'd suggest you first do "apt-get update && aptitude distupgrade"
and then fix/remove any packages not from the repositories. You get a list of offenders
via:
$ apt-show-versions | grep --invert-match "\(uptodate\|not\ installed\)"
These packages will survive any upgrade and cause praublems.
Nik
Bill
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5:50 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
> I am wondering if anybody else has done a fresh
installation of Devuan
> Chimaera recently, or something close to my own OS. My hunch is that this
> apparent conflict between gtk2 and gtk3 will start to affect other TDE
> users.
The signficant words here are "fresh installation"; yours, by comparison to
mine, is already starting to smell just a bit ripe.
I have installed devuan daedalus on a t470 and on my ryzen, basicly without
issues (madness of freedesktop GNOMEs does not count). GTK2 is still there,
firfox-esr works as expected. My last chimaera installation was in December
- again without problems. But I have to say that I only use programs from
the repositories, not from 3rd party sites, so palemoon, iceweasle etc. are
not installed.
Aside from palemoon, etc., I don't install third-party packages. These
browsers, palemoon, vivaldi, etc., are stand-alone items, nothing added. I
don't update them until necessary, so their repositories are not enabled in
my sources.list. And I might add, if I didn't have palemoon, for example, I
would not have been able to use an internet browser at all, unless by booting
into the XFCE desktop.
I got my laptop in early December, so your installation is older than my
laptop itself.
So I'd suggest you first do "apt-get update && aptitude
distupgrade" and
then fix/remove any packages not from the repositories. You get a list of
offenders via:
I already did an upgrade and dist-upgrade. Now I am attempting to trace any
offenders.
$ apt-show-versions | grep --invert-match
"\(uptodate\|not\ installed\)"
These packages will survive any upgrade and cause praublems.
Nik
A "fresh" installation would be (for comparison to my own system)
sometime
within the past few days.
Bill
6:10 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
Anno domini 2022 Sat, 26 Feb 09:50:03 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
[..]
A "fresh" installation would be (for comparison to my own system) sometime
within the past few days.
Ha! Don't tell me my fish is not fresh!
Nik
Bill
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6:31 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Saturday 26 February 2022 10:10:06 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2022 Sat, 26 Feb 09:50:03 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
I hope that your apfelstrudel (sorry no umlauts, etc.) at least is fresher
than your fish.
Well, so here's an interesting non-development. I did a apt purge of
everything gnome and gnomish, all the gtk2 and gtk3 packages that weren't
needed. (I also unchecked those boxes that told other programs to use my TDE
settings, all that good stuff.)
After purging, then purging again, and purging yet again, I *still* got these
packages that clung to life inside my system, despite every attempt to
eradicate them:
gnome-keyring gtk3-nooverlayscrollbar network-manager-gnome policykit-1-gnome
gnome-desktop3-data gnome-icon-theme gnome-keyring gnome-keyring-pkcs11
libgnome-desktop-3-19 xdg-desktop-portal-gtk libpam-gnome-keyring
libpipewire-0.3-0 libpipewire-0.3-modules libspa-0.2-modules libxkbregistry0
p11-kit p11-kit-modules pipewire pipewire-bin xdg-desktop-portal
libayatana-appindicator3-1 libayatana-ido3-0.4-0 libayatana-indicator3-7
libnma-common libnma0 mobile-broadband-provider-info
I finally used dpkg --purge --force-all and got rid of them, but they just
keep coming back. I used to say of Gnome, well, at least it's not as bad as
KDE4/5, etc., but now I begin to think maybe it's much worse than the rest.
Bill
[..]
A "fresh" installation would be (for comparison to my own system)
sometime within the past few days.
Ha! Don't tell me my fish is not fresh!
Nik
6:50 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
Anno domini 2022 Sat, 26 Feb 10:31:12 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Saturday 26 February 2022 10:10:06 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Well, the appes are from last summer, some are showins a bit of patina ... na, nobody will
notice :)
Anno domini 2022 Sat, 26 Feb 09:50:03 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
I hope that your apfelstrudel (sorry no umlauts, etc.) at least is fresher
than your fish. [..]
A "fresh" installation would be (for comparison to my own system)
sometime within the past few days.
Ha! Don't tell me my fish is not fresh!
Nik [...]
I finally used dpkg --purge --force-all and got rid of them, but they just
keep coming back. I used to say of Gnome, well, at least it's not as bad as
KDE4/5, etc., but now I begin to think maybe it's much worse than the rest.
Can you ask "aptitude why ..." for each of these returning dead? I have
"network-manager " and "network-manager-tde", but no
"network-manager-gnome" (that beast I killed with my mace). And in case you
didn't alread, purge all configs of unused packages with "apt purge ~c". I
have the strong feeling that you have some GNOMIsh package installed that hides under a
unsuspicious name.
Nik
Bill
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7:34 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Saturday 26 February 2022 19.31:12 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
. I used to say of Gnome, well, at least it's not
as bad as
KDE4/5, etc., but now I begin to think maybe it's much worse than the rest.
I don't remember what you use for a distribution but I have the feeling that
most desktops (and *many* applications) simply rely on gnomish material.
Maybe building something like Gentoo from scratch could give a base system
totaly Gnome-free - I don't know.
So the question is - is there a really good reason to try to avoid them
competely (no troll, just a question). As far as I am concerned I am happy if
they don't mess with my system in a way I feel.
Thierry
7:58 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Saturday 26 February 2022 11:34:07 Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Saturday 26 February 2022 19.31:12 William Morder
via tde-users wrote:
No problem, no troll intended, no troll perceived.
Well, let's suppose that I *don't* use icecat or palemoon or seamonkey or
vivaldi-snapshot, since they are rather non-mainstream, third-party
repositories, etc. (As I said, they are all stand-alone items, nothing
added.) For sake of argument, that sounds reasonable.
Still, however, firefox doesn't work, and that's basically, comes already
installed with most systems; not only Devuan, but all Debian-based, and
probably most other Linux distros.
It's not that I wouldn't like to learn Gentoo and other distros, but I am
getting old, and want to use my computer to finish some work that has taken
literally decades to bring to completion; and I am almost there. I don't have
decades of life left. I want to use my computer for things besides learning
more about computers.
If there is some way for me to resolve this, and to get a working computer
with internet access - and more importantly, some kind of working office
software that I can actually use - then I am willing to try. But I think it's
unreasonable that I must relearn everything every few years.
I need to make the most of the years that I have left, not waste my time
fighting against the machines.
Bill
. I used to say of Gnome, well, at least it's
not as bad as
KDE4/5, etc., but now I begin to think maybe it's much worse than the
rest.
I don't remember what you use for a distribution but I have the feeling
that most desktops (and *many* applications) simply rely on gnomish
material.
Maybe building something like Gentoo from scratch could give a base system
totaly Gnome-free - I don't know.
So the question is - is there a really good reason to try to avoid them
competely (no troll, just a question). As far as I am concerned I am happy
if they don't mess with my system in a way I feel.
Thierry
8:08 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
Anno domini 2022 Sat, 26 Feb 11:58:37 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
[...]
I need to make the most of the years that I have left, not waste my time
fighting against the machines.
I think this is called "progress", which will definitly lead menkind into a
"bright" future ...
Bill
____________________________________________________
tde-users mailing list -- users(a)trinitydesktop.org
To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org
Web mail archive available at
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt…
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
8:28 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info - OT
On Saturday 26 February 2022 12:08:14 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2022 Sat, 26 Feb 11:58:37 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
Okay, so this response is definitely off-topic, but it seems appropriate:
https://www/newyorker.com/cartoons/daily-cartoon/tuesday-february-22nd-robo…
(I don't know if this link still works, since I am blocked; I believe that I
made a backup of the page on archive.org, but again, I am blocked.)
For me it is even more special, as Tuesday 22/02/2022 (palindrome day) was my
birthday. (No presents, please! unless they are really good ...)
Bill
[...]
I need to make the most of the years that I have left, not waste my time
fighting against the machines.
I think this is called "progress", which will definitly lead menkind into a
"bright" future ...
27 Feb
27 Feb
12:29 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info - OT
On Sat, Feb 26, 2022 at 12:28:12PM -0800, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Okay, so this response is definitely off-topic, but it
seems appropriate:
https://www/newyorker.com/cartoons/daily-cartoon/tuesday-february-22nd-robo…
(I don't know if this link still works, since I am blocked; I believe that I
made a backup of the page on archive.org, but again, I am blocked.)
You have a slash www/ where it should be a dot.
https://www.newyorker.com/cartoons/daily-cartoon/tuesday-february-22nd-robo…
You're not blocked, you're just doing it wrong.
--
Steve
1:54 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info - OT
On Saturday 26 February 2022 16:29:41 Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Sorry, copied the link (manually, with my own hands) from my phone, where I
had sent it to somebody. And then my old eyes did not see the mistake.
At least I still have some access to the internets.
Thanks for the correction!
Bill
On Sat, Feb 26, 2022 at 12:28:12PM -0800, William
Morder via tde-users
wrote:
Okay, so this
response is definitely off-topic, but it seems appropriate:
https://www/newyorker.com/cartoons/daily-cartoon/tuesday-february-22nd-ro
bot-party (I don't know if this link still works, since I am blocked; I
believe that I made a backup of the page on archive.org, but again, I am
blocked.)
You have a slash www/ where it should be a dot.
https://www.newyorker.com/cartoons/daily-cartoon/tuesday-february-22nd-robo
t-party
You're not blocked, you're just doing it wrong.
1:41 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Sat, Feb 26, 2022 at 11:58:37AM -0800, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
It's not that I wouldn't like to learn Gentoo
and other distros, but I am
getting old, and want to use my computer to finish some work that has taken
literally decades to bring to completion; and I am almost there. I don't have
decades of life left. I want to use my computer for things besides learning
more about computers.
If there is some way for me to resolve this, and to get a working computer
with internet access - and more importantly, some kind of working office
software that I can actually use - then I am willing to try. But I think it's
unreasonable that I must relearn everything every few years.
I need to make the most of the years that I have left, not waste my time
fighting against the machines.
So why do you *choose* to spend some much time fighting against the
machine?
Why do you insist on spending hours and days tracking down every little
package that does you no harm and eradicating it from your system (even
if doing so breaks stuff!) because it is "Gnomish"?
At the point that you are removing packages using dpkg --purge --force-all
you are literally fighting the system and telling it that you know
better than it what libraries and packages are needed.
--
Steve
2:04 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
So why do you *choose* to spend some much time
fighting against the
machine?
Why do you insist on spending hours and days tracking down every little
package that does you no harm and eradicating it from your system (even
if doing so breaks stuff!) because it is "Gnomish"?
At the point that you are removing packages using dpkg --purge --force-all
you are literally fighting the system and telling it that you know
better than it what libraries and packages are needed.
No, I am trying to get a machine that actually works. I did try to use the
defaults, but those browsers stopped working. It was because they stopped
working that I tried to remove those packages. I went back to basics and
started over completely, and tried installing packages and their dependencies
one-at-a-time, trying to figure out where I had gone wrong (rather than
following my tried-and-true method that always worked on my old desktop,
where I was running Beowulf). I would return to my desktop and chuck this
piece of junk laptop, but alas! my desktop is put away in storage.
I am almost ready to surrender and return to Windoze.
I did try to use LibreOffice, again and again, and can't use it, so I try to
get OpenOffice to work. I have tried to run my system using those Gnome
packages, and when it works, and I don't notice it, I don't mind so much.
At this point, I find that I have spent a big pile of money on nothing, and
cannot move forward. I have a machine that is only useful for a passive
spectator, to listen to music and online radio and watch videos, etc., but I
cannot actually use it for work.
Thanks for caring, though.
;-)
Bill
7:45 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Sunday 27 February 2022 03.04:39 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
No, I am trying to get a machine that actually works.
I did try to use the
defaults, but those browsers stopped working.
(...)
I did try to use LibreOffice, again and again, and
can't use it, so I try
to get OpenOffice to work.
Then the question is rather: what do you have for a machine?
I have and have had Linux running on *lots* of machines, desktops, laptops,
Single Board Computers, Raspberry Pi and raspi copies, many if not most of
them with Debian or Debian derivatives, and I *never* experiences any of
these problems. Brwosers always run and LO always runs.
So maybe some incompatibility at machine level?
Thierry
5:21 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Sat, Feb 26, 2022 at 06:04:39PM -0800, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
No, I am trying to get a machine that actually works.
I did try to use the
defaults, but those browsers stopped working. It was because they stopped
working that I tried to remove those packages.
That's not what you told us initially.
You reported the three "strange visitors":
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt…
then nearly 18 hours later you said:
Now here's another puzzle. I don't know if it's related to my
previous question about unwanted visitors in top, but I decided that
I ought to start a new thread.
I managed to get rid of those pesky unwelcome visitors, and imagined
that I was on the way to having a machine that actually does what I
want.
All of a sudden, most of my browsers will not launch at all. I even
went on a spree, and downloaded lots of different browsers, just to
try them out (and to see if I could get anything to connect to the
Internet).
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt…
At this point, I find that I have spent a big pile of
money on nothing, and
cannot move forward. I have a machine that is only useful for a passive
spectator, to listen to music and online radio and watch videos, etc., but I
cannot actually use it for work.
I know that you are frustrated, and I feel for you.
I am confident that the computer is fine for doing work, or at least it
will be once you stop "fixing" it and actually do fix it. I am not a
betting man, but if I were, I would bet dollars to donuts that the
problems you are having have nothing to do with the hardware, or that
Devuan is broken.
--
Steve
7:04 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
That's not what you told us initially.
You reported the three "strange visitors":
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt
op.org/message/J32P3DLUUN2WLBDDKWQ7E4R2N7GZL7PC/
then nearly 18 hours later you said:
Now here's another puzzle. I don't know if it's related to my
previous question about unwanted visitors in top, but I decided that
I ought to start a new thread.
I managed to get rid of those pesky unwelcome visitors, and imagined
that I was on the way to having a machine that actually does what I
want.
All of a sudden, most of my browsers will not launch at all. I even
went on a spree, and downloaded lots of different browsers, just to
try them out (and to see if I could get anything to connect to the
Internet).
True, but the first thing I noticed is that some of my text editors
were
acting a little weird, and wouldn't launch. I didn't think that so important
at the time. Next thing is that I noticed the "strange visitors"; but these
occurred after an upgrade, for which nothing different was added, and nothing
to do with Gnome or TDE or anything remarkable.
I am confident that the computer is fine for doing work, or at least it
will be once you stop "fixing" it and actually do fix it. I am not a
betting man, but if I were, I would bet dollars to donuts that the
problems you are having have nothing to do with the hardware, or that
Devuan is broken.
I don't keep "fixing" it. I only tried to track down Gnomish packages after
Nik's remark, and I kept track of what was removed and installed. Then I did
another system reinstall, and haven't removed anything.
Bill
26 Feb
26 Feb
10:28 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:34:07 +0100
Thierry de Coulon <tcoulon(a)decoulon.ch> wrote:
Maybe building something like Gentoo from scratch
could give a base system
totaly Gnome-free - I don't know.
Speaking as a Gentoo user, the answer is "sort of". Unfortunately, you're
kind of
stuck with librsvg and a couple of others if you have anything GTK.
I currently have seven packages from categories gnome-base and gnome-extra
installed (to support various browsers, Libreoffice, GIMP, Inkscape, etc.), plus a
few Gnome-adjacent packages that live in other categories (like the at-spi2 stuff).
I would say it's extremely difficult at this point in time to run a general-purpose
desktop without any Gnome-adjacent packages on it. The largest issue is
web browsing (qutebrowser and links seem to be free of GTK and at-spi2,
but I wouldn't trust them to support the average Javascript-choked "modern"
website), and your only option for an office suite would be the
KDE5-encumbered Calligra.
E. Liddell
27 Feb
27 Feb
12:04 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
I would say it's extremely difficult at this point
in time to run a
general-purpose desktop without any Gnome-adjacent packages on it. The
largest issue is web browsing (qutebrowser and links seem to be free of GTK
and at-spi2, but I wouldn't trust them to support the average
Javascript-choked "modern" website), and your only option for an office
suite would be the
KDE5-encumbered Calligra.
E. Liddell
I can only imagine that these problems will get worse; that whatever I am
experiencing now is just the start. Since I have tried almost everything
else, I am considering downgrading to Devuan Beowulf, which ought to
remain "old stable" for another couple years. I don't know if that will
change anything.
By the way, regarding "fresh" installations: I don't hear anybody on the
list
saying that they have only just installed or reinstalled their OS within the
last few days. (That cartoon for which I sent the link was from 22 Feb., and
my system was still running normally then; it is only a day or so afterwards
that I started noticing these problems.)
So there is my question, or challenge, if you will. Who dares reinstall their
OS, to see if they run into these same problems?
Bill
8:02 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Sunday 27 February 2022 01.04:33 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
So there is my question, or challenge, if you will.
Who dares reinstall
their OS, to see if they run into these same problems?
Bill
I recently installed Devuan Chimaera on my main machine. I did not have time
to re-install everything I need for everyday life and will probably have to
wait until summer for this, but so far and as far as browsing and Libre
Office are concerned everythin is working.
The machine is a three years old tower with AMD Ryzen and Intel Graphics, no
nothing fancy.
Thierry
1:43 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
I recently installed Devuan Chimaera on my main
machine. I did not have
time to re-install everything I need for everyday life and will probably
have to wait until summer for this, but so far and as far as browsing and
Libre Office are concerned everythin is working.
The machine is a three years old tower with AMD Ryzen and Intel Graphics,
no nothing fancy.
Thierry
Okay, so like I said to Nik, I don't know how "fresh" is your installation.
Mine is within the past few days. But at least it gives me something for
comparison. For this comparison to be more exact, it would have to be a
reinstallation or at least an upgrade within the past few days. (This started
maybe the 23rd, the day after that robot cartoon that I sent; which I say
because I was using Icecat when I originally happened on that page at the New
Yorker site.) Today is the 27th; so about the 23rd until now is what I mean
by a "fresh" installation.
My machine (description taken from manufacturer's site) is this:
Lenovo Ideapad 3 15 15.6_ Laptop AMD Ryzen 3 8GB Memory 128GB SSD
I had thought it came with a 250 GB SSD by default; somewhere I have the
original. Anyway, I took out the factory SSD and put in a new 2 TB SSD, one
of those newer ones, SSD2 or whatever they are called. They look very
different from the first run of SSDs.
For the record, as I stated before, I had voided my warranty within the first
day or so, once I had my new SSD. I fiddled around with trying to install
Whonix, but that proved a bit too complicated for now.
Within the first few days, I had it up and running tolerably well, and since
then it had only ever improved. Up until a few days ago, things were working
well, and I had not really changed much of anything. LibreOffice worked, but
it's the GUI interface that hurts my eyes and makes it hard to work.
OpenOffice installs, but crashes or doesn't launch. When I go back to
LibreOffice, sometimes that give me a problem. But in general, Office
programs are not the problem here, because I haven't had either one installed
while I've had these recent issues.
I did an upgrade, nothing was added. Shortly thereafter, a few of my programs
started acting weird, such as text editors. So I eventually decided to
reinstall my OS, but though to take out non-free and contrib from my repos
before reinstallation. After reinstallation, same procedures and programs
added as usual, I immediately began to have problems with those browsers
mentioned earlier (most "modern" or "mainstream" browsers such as
firefox,
icecat, etc., but also seamonkey, midori, chromium, epiphany, etc.); only
palemoon and links2 are dependable running in the TDE desktop.
To test whether my changes in repositories had any effect, I put non-free and
contrib back in, did another upgrade, another reinstallation, and see no
appreciable difference regarding these problems, so once again I took those
lines out of my sources.list, because my network and so on seem to work okay.
When I booted into my XFCE desktop, which I had used for installation, all
these browsers worked fine. I have not tried either Libre Office or Open
Office to see if they will run under XFCE.
Regarding Libre Office versus Open Office: I would gladly go with Libre
Office, although I would really like to be able to force my TDE colors onto
the LO GUI interface, because it is actually painful for me to stare at it
for longer than about five minutes. I would still like to use Open Office,
but that may not be possible. My workaround is to keep exporting my document
to a pdf file, then switching to that screen where I can use kpdf-trinity and
my TDE colors; for revisions and other changes, I switch back to my office
program, make those corrections, export to pdf again, then return to reading
the exported document in kpdf. So it is sort of possible for me to use Libre
Office or Open Office, though this is still not ideal.
The main problem, as I said, is whatever has caused these browsers and other
programs that cannot the mixed gtk2 and gtk3 that is affecting either TDE
itself, or at any rate my own machine. I have tried taking those things out,
putting them back in; tried taking them out a few at a time (checking to see
what else they will affect), putting them back in a few at at time. I did not
try to track down and purge those problem Gnomes until long after these
problems arose. So I did not cause my system to break by getting rid of
Gnomish dependencies; the breakage was already happening after a simple
upgrade from the same system which had been running stable since early
December.
Sorry for the lengthy description; but I wanted to lay to rest the false
notion that I somehow did this to myself by removing essential packages. All
I did was a simple upgrade. There after I tried removing non-free and
contrib; then I tried adding them back in. Since then, in the past few days,
I tried a couple new reinstallations, and these same problems persist.
I hope this makes clear the general sequence of events that led me into this
mess. As I pointed out earlier, if these browsers work fine in XFCE but not
in TDE, then it seems to me that this ought to concern us who run TDE, as it
could be a sign of what's to come.
Thanks everybody for your patience. Help or suggestions are appreciated.
Bill
3:59 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 8:43:25 AM EST William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
I'm with Bill on this one. This is pretty much a default install of
bullseye, on a 6 core i5 with 32 gigs of dram, I do some design work for
my 3d printer using OpenSCAD, and have had to give OpenSCAD access to
over 20 gigs to get some renders done. System storage is a 500GB SSD, and
/home and swap are on a 2T raid10, made up from 4, 1T SSD's. My gfx stuff
runs from AppImages because the distro copies are over a year old and way
out of date, the current OpenSCAD AppImage is nearly 20x faster than the
distro copy from Jan 2021. Development activity is a new AppImage a week!
But while I'd love to put things back on TDE, bullseye and apt refuse to
install more than 2 pieces of TDE without going into an endless loop of
broken packages that is stopped only by forcibly removeing that which I
have tried to install. Couple that with the inability to reboot w/o doing
a re-install, which I've now done about 20 damned times, because
someplace in my USB tree, there's at least one, and probably more, FDTI
usb to serial adaptors that the installer THINKS is a Braille driver, so
it, without asking, installs brltty and orca, the speech enabled screen
reader no one can understand. And it, if you remove the stuff after the
install is done, will NOT reboot past the 10 second mark in the boot log
cuz its stuck looking for that crap and can't find it.
Very damned distracting when its trying to pronounce every key you type
and no one knows how to remove it without filling the boot drive with
/var/log/syslog until the system is unusable because of the lags imposed
by opening the log when its 50+ megabytes 18 hours after the install,
search for the end of it, writing 9 or 10 more lines of error messages
and closing the log, for every keystroke typed.
The only fix I've found that lets my machine stay up for a few days,
(uptime is 7+ days atm) is to find the .conf files in /etc, and direct
all that error output to /dev/null. That leaves one line of errors still
going to syslog about every 20 seconds as something in systemd.d keeps
looking for the speech dispatcher over blue tooth, and there isn't any of
that except the keyboad and mouse.
So I'm stuck on a plasma desktop thats as buggy as a 6 day old road kill
in August. Northern hemisphere summer of course. ;o) Typical of KDE, they
get an idea for eye candy but never finish squishing the bugs. 3 or 4 of
the desktop backgrounds have a nice analog clock, but no background image
is loaded and the clock may be up to several hours out of time with
gkrellms excellent digital clock. It only tries to update if you wave the
mouse over it. What the hell good is a clock thats frozen in time 99% of
the time? Its purty, but it does not work. Right now its stuck at
10:44:35, while gkrellm says its 10:49:19.
You may take it that I'm upset. But I'll keep on lurking in case a fix
shows up.
Thanks for reading my vitriolic spew.
Take care and stay well everybody.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
I recently
installed Devuan Chimaera on my main machine. I did not
have time to re-install everything I need for everyday life and will
probably have to wait until summer for this, but so far and as far
as browsing and Libre Office are concerned everythin is working.
The machine is a three years old tower with AMD Ryzen and Intel
Graphics, no nothing fancy.
Thierry
Okay, so like I said to Nik, I don't know how "fresh" is your
installation. Mine is within the past few days. But at least it gives
me something for comparison. For this comparison to be more exact, it
would have to be a reinstallation or at least an upgrade within the
past few days. (This started maybe the 23rd, the day after that robot
cartoon that I sent; which I say because I was using Icecat when I
originally happened on that page at the New Yorker site.) Today is the
27th; so about the 23rd until now is what I mean by a "fresh"
installation.
My machine (description taken from manufacturer's site) is this:
Lenovo Ideapad 3 15 15.6_ Laptop AMD Ryzen 3 8GB Memory 128GB SSD
I had thought it came with a 250 GB SSD by default; somewhere I have
the original. Anyway, I took out the factory SSD and put in a new 2 TB
SSD, one of those newer ones, SSD2 or whatever they are called. They
look very different from the first run of SSDs.
For the record, as I stated before, I had voided my warranty within the
first day or so, once I had my new SSD. I fiddled around with trying
to install Whonix, but that proved a bit too complicated for now.
Within the first few days, I had it up and running tolerably well, and
since then it had only ever improved. Up until a few days ago, things
were working well, and I had not really changed much of anything.
LibreOffice worked, but it's the GUI interface that hurts my eyes and
makes it hard to work. OpenOffice installs, but crashes or doesn't
launch. When I go back to LibreOffice, sometimes that give me a
problem. But in general, Office programs are not the problem here,
because I haven't had either one installed while I've had these recent
issues.
I did an upgrade, nothing was added. Shortly thereafter, a few of my
programs started acting weird, such as text editors. So I eventually
decided to reinstall my OS, but though to take out non-free and
contrib from my repos before reinstallation. After reinstallation,
same procedures and programs added as usual, I immediately began to
have problems with those browsers mentioned earlier (most "modern" or
"mainstream" browsers such as firefox, icecat, etc., but also
seamonkey, midori, chromium, epiphany, etc.); only palemoon and links2
are dependable running in the TDE desktop.
To test whether my changes in repositories had any effect, I put
non-free and contrib back in, did another upgrade, another
reinstallation, and see no appreciable difference regarding these
problems, so once again I took those lines out of my sources.list,
because my network and so on seem to work okay.
When I booted into my XFCE desktop, which I had used for installation,
all these browsers worked fine. I have not tried either Libre Office
or Open Office to see if they will run under XFCE.
Regarding Libre Office versus Open Office: I would gladly go with Libre
Office, although I would really like to be able to force my TDE colors
onto the LO GUI interface, because it is actually painful for me to
stare at it for longer than about five minutes. I would still like to
use Open Office, but that may not be possible. My workaround is to
keep exporting my document to a pdf file, then switching to that
screen where I can use kpdf-trinity and my TDE colors; for revisions
and other changes, I switch back to my office program, make those
corrections, export to pdf again, then return to reading the exported
document in kpdf. So it is sort of possible for me to use Libre Office
or Open Office, though this is still not ideal.
The main problem, as I said, is whatever has caused these browsers and
other programs that cannot the mixed gtk2 and gtk3 that is affecting
either TDE itself, or at any rate my own machine. I have tried taking
those things out, putting them back in; tried taking them out a few at
a time (checking to see what else they will affect), putting them back
in a few at at time. I did not try to track down and purge those
problem Gnomes until long after these problems arose. So I did not
cause my system to break by getting rid of Gnomish dependencies; the
breakage was already happening after a simple upgrade from the same
system which had been running stable since early December.
Sorry for the lengthy description; but I wanted to lay to rest the
false notion that I somehow did this to myself by removing essential
packages. All I did was a simple upgrade. There after I tried removing
non-free and contrib; then I tried adding them back in. Since then, in
the past few days, I tried a couple new reinstallations, and these
same problems persist.
I hope this makes clear the general sequence of events that led me into
this mess. As I pointed out earlier, if these browsers work fine in
XFCE but not in TDE, then it seems to me that this ought to concern us
who run TDE, as it could be a sign of what's to come.
Thanks everybody for your patience. Help or suggestions are
appreciated.
Bill
5:39 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
Anno domini 2022 Sun, 27 Feb 10:59:33 -0500
gene heskett scripsit:
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 8:43:25 AM EST William
Morder via tde-users
[...]
You may take it that I'm upset. But I'll keep on lurking in case a fix
shows up.
Thanks for reading my vitriolic spew.
Take care and stay well everybody.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
I feel I'm out of good ideas for both of you. Just 3 things where your aproach differs
from mine:
- Use at least devuan chimera (better daedalus) for a fresh installation. Bullseye is dead
and gone by now. Nativecam needs bullseye, linuxcnc does not - pick your poision.
- Deselect any DE that the installer wants to install (XFCE/KDE). That is: no DE and no
Xorg in the tasksel. You'll need to install xorg manually if it's not pulled in by
tde-desktop.
- Use PBS repository for TDE.
And when TDE is up and running, take notes what you install/uninstall/configure.
Nik
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
7:07 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
- Use at least devuan chimera (better daedalus) for a
fresh installation.
Bullseye is dead and gone by now. Nativecam needs bullseye, linuxcnc does
not - pick your poision. - Deselect any DE that the installer wants to
install (XFCE/KDE). That is: no DE and no Xorg in the tasksel. You'll need
to install xorg manually if it's not pulled in by tde-desktop. - Use PBS
repository for TDE.
And when TDE is up and running, take notes what you
install/uninstall/configure.
Nik
I hesitate to move up to daedalus, but I suppose that's not impossible. I do
have other flash drives, so I could try one of those images. It could be that
those "things to come" are already doing well in a more current system.
And here I just got out of beowulf and imagined that I had chimaera working
pretty well.
Bill
7:08 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 12:39:40 PM EST Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2022 Sun, 27 Feb 10:59:33 -0500
gene heskett scripsit:
Linuxcnc won't even build on bullseye, python-3.9.2 gives it a fatal
tummy ache in the ./configure step, and NativeCAM isn't on my radar as I
generally write my own g-code. I like 80 line programs that take 3 days
to finish, instead of some CAM unrolling the loop into 367 megabytes of
drivel.
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 8:43:25 AM EST
William Morder via
tde-users [...]
You may take it that I'm upset. But I'll keep on lurking in case a
fix
shows up.
Thanks for reading my vitriolic spew.
Take care and stay well everybody.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
I feel I'm out of good ideas for both of you. Just 3 things where your
aproach differs from mine:
- Use at least devuan chimera (better daedalus) for a fresh
installation. Bullseye is dead and gone by now. Nativecam needs
bullseye, linuxcnc does not - pick your poision. - Deselect any DE
that the installer wants to install (XFCE/KDE). That is: no DE and no
Xorg in the tasksel. You'll need to install xorg manually if it's not
pulled in by tde-desktop. - Use PBS repository for TDE.
And that is @? (I'm not familiar with that abreviation)
And when TDE is up and running, take notes what you
install/uninstall/configure.
Nik
Thanks Nik, take care and stay well.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
7:40 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
Anno domini 2022 Sun, 27 Feb 14:08:59 -0500
gene heskett scripsit:
deb http://mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org/trinity-testing daedalus deps extra main
deb-src http://mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org/trinity-testing daedalus deps extra main
Nik
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 12:39:40 PM EST Dr.
Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Ok, this is how I build it on chimaera:
git clone --depth=1 git://github.com/linuxcnc/linuxcnc.git linuxcnc-dev
cd linuxcnc-dev/src
./autogen.sh
./configure --with-python=python3 --enable-non-distributable=yes --with-realtime=uspace
make -k
Then I can run it with "linuxcnc-dev/scripts/rip-environment linuxcnc"
Anno domini 2022 Sun, 27 Feb 10:59:33 -0500
gene heskett scripsit:
Linuxcnc won't even build on bullseye, python-3.9.2 gives it a fatal
tummy ache in the ./configure step, and NativeCAM isn't on my radar as I
generally write my own g-code. I like 80 line programs that take 3 days
to finish, instead of some CAM unrolling the loop into 367 megabytes of
drivel. On Sunday, February 27, 2022 8:43:25 AM EST
William Morder via
tde-users [...]
You may take it that I'm upset. But I'll keep on lurking in case a
fix
shows up.
Thanks for reading my vitriolic spew.
Take care and stay well everybody.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
I feel I'm out of good ideas for both of you. Just 3 things where your
aproach differs from mine:
- Use at least devuan chimera (better daedalus) for a fresh
installation. Bullseye is dead and gone by now. Nativecam needs
bullseye, linuxcnc does not - pick your poision. - Deselect any
DE
that the installer wants to install (XFCE/KDE). That is: no DE and no
Xorg in the tasksel. You'll need to install xorg manually if it's not
pulled in by tde-desktop. - Use PBS repository for TDE.
And that is @? (I'm not familiar with that abreviation)
And when TDE is up and running, take notes what you
install/uninstall/configure.
Nik
Thanks Nik, take care and stay well.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
9:44 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 2:40:32 PM EST Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Ok, this is how I build it on chimaera:
git clone --depth=1 git://github.com/linuxcnc/linuxcnc.git linuxcnc-dev
cd linuxcnc-dev/src
./autogen.sh
./configure --with-python=python3 --enable-non-distributable=yes
--with-realtime=uspace make -k
Then I can run it with "linuxcnc-dev/scripts/rip-environment linuxcnc"
deb http://mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org/trinity-testing daedalus deps
extra main deb-src
http://mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org/trinity-testing daedalus deps
extra main
Nik
Now if I just had a printer so this would survive a reboot/reinstall.
Thanks Nik.
Anno domini 2022 Sun, 27 Feb 14:08:59 -0500
gene heskett scripsit:
> On Sunday, February 27, 2022 12:39:40 PM EST Dr. Nikolaus Klepp
wrote:
Anno domini 2022 Sun, 27 Feb 10:59:33 -0500
gene heskett scripsit:
Linuxcnc won't even build on bullseye, python-3.9.2 gives it a fatal
tummy ache in the ./configure step, and NativeCAM isn't on my radar
as I generally write my own g-code. I like 80 line programs that
take 3 days to finish, instead of some CAM unrolling the loop into
367 megabytes of drivel. On Sunday, February 27, 2022 8:43:25 AM EST
William Morder via
tde-users [...]
You may take it that I'm upset. But I'll keep on lurking in case
a
fix
shows up.
Thanks for reading my vitriolic spew.
Take care and stay well everybody.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
I feel I'm out of good ideas for both of you. Just 3 things where
your
aproach differs from mine:
- Use at least devuan chimera (better daedalus) for a fresh
installation. Bullseye is dead and gone by now. Nativecam needs
bullseye, linuxcnc does not - pick your poision. -
Deselect any DE
that the installer wants to install (XFCE/KDE). That is: no DE and
no
Xorg in the tasksel. You'll need to install xorg manually if it's
not
pulled in by tde-desktop. - Use PBS repository for TDE.
And that is @? (I'm not familiar with that abreviation)
> > And when TDE is up and running, take notes what you
> > install/uninstall/configure.
> >
> > Nik
>
Thanks Nik, take care and stay well.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
6:01 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 10:59:33 -0500
gene heskett <gheskett(a)shentel.net> wrote:
someplace in my USB tree, there's at least one,
and probably more, FDTI
usb to serial adaptors that the installer THINKS is a Braille driver, so
it, without asking, installs brltty and orca, the speech enabled screen
reader no one can understand. And it, if you remove the stuff after the
install is done, will NOT reboot past the 10 second mark in the boot log
cuz its stuck looking for that crap and can't find it.
Very damned distracting when its trying to pronounce every key you type
and no one knows how to remove it without filling the boot drive with
/var/log/syslog until the system is unusable because of the lags imposed
by opening the log when its 50+ megabytes 18 hours after the install,
search for the end of it, writing 9 or 10 more lines of error messages
and closing the log, for every keystroke typed.
The only fix I've found that lets my machine stay up for a few days,
(uptime is 7+ days atm) is to find the .conf files in /etc, and direct
all that error output to /dev/null. That leaves one line of errors still
going to syslog about every 20 seconds as something in systemd.d keeps
looking for the speech dispatcher over blue tooth, and there isn't any of
that except the keyboad and mouse.
Sounds like you need to kill the service(s) involved using whatever
systemd's equivalent of rc-update is (or overwrite the service files
with no-ops and then make them unwritable so they can't be changed),
blacklist any kernel modules involved, and possibly write some udev
rules to force the problem device to be properly identified. Rather a
tedious process that would have to start with identifying the problem
device and its USB ID.
E. Liddell
7:09 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
The only fix
I've found that lets my machine stay up for a few days,
(uptime is 7+ days atm) is to find the .conf files in /etc, and direct
all that error output to /dev/null. That leaves one line of errors still
going to syslog about every 20 seconds as something in systemd.d keeps
looking for the speech dispatcher over blue tooth, and there isn't any of
that except the keyboad and mouse.
Sounds like you need to kill the service(s) involved using whatever
systemd's equivalent of rc-update is (or overwrite the service files
with no-ops and then make them unwritable so they can't be changed),
blacklist any kernel modules involved, and possibly write some udev
rules to force the problem device to be properly identified. Rather a
tedious process that would have to start with identifying the problem
device and its USB ID.
E. Liddell
8:23 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 1:01:06 PM EST E. Liddell wrote:
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 10:59:33 -0500
gene heskett <gheskett(a)shentel.net> wrote:
idVendor 0x0403 Future Technology Devices International, Ltd
idProduct 0x6001 FT232 Serial (UART) IC
idVendor 0x0403 Future Technology Devices International, Ltd
idProduct 0x6001 FT232 Serial (UART) IC
That device seems to be the device triggering all this hate and
discontent, but the differences in priority of whats to be done boggles
my mind.
I have done around 20 installs, which include finding, unpacking a
copying back to where they belong each time I thought I had whupped it
this time. Thats around a 40 hour day per install.
Two of those are plugged in but in all the hubs laying on the floor, I
have no idea which cable is actually those 2. And I can see 3 hubs from
this chair. Now if we had an lsusb utility that told us which port of
which hub it was plugged into...
I don't want to lose that data yet again, but while the installer can
find the partitions and the raifd10 just fine, it will not proceed with
the install unless it can format a goodly number of gigabytes of data
away yet again... I've been doing these from scratch installs since early
October last year. This stuff can be removed with the package manager,
but it will not remove the startup stuff that stops a reboot from
proceeding past the 10 second mark because the startup stuff has not been
removed too, so the only way I could reboot was to install it all new,
which of course put it back in.
I asked how to get rid of it gracefully several times and was either
ignored, or was given advice that was totally unrelated to the problem
but all of which involved doing yet another install.
Surely whats been installed should be removable without destroying the
rest of the system? But that approach isn't on the menu.
Yet I'm to blame for my frustration?
Debian made this situation, and debian s/b willing to help without me
embarking on yet another multiday install and data recovery that takes
days to get it all back. I have another SSD the netinstall could be
copied to and booted from if I could figure out how to bypass the iso
9660 stuff, and that could be edited to bypass this stuff, but no one at
debian in a position to actually fix it wants to help me do that. In
fairness to debian I have not specifically asked about that possibility.
Thank you, take care and stay well, E. Liddell
someplace in my USB tree, there's at least
one, and probably more,
FDTI usb to serial adaptors that the installer THINKS is a Braille
driver, so it, without asking, installs brltty and orca, the speech
enabled screen reader no one can understand. And it, if you remove
the stuff after the install is done, will NOT reboot past the 10
second mark in the boot log cuz its stuck looking for that crap and
can't find it.
Very damned distracting when its trying to pronounce every key you
type and no one knows how to remove it without filling the boot
drive with>
/var/log/syslog until the system is unusable because of the lags
imposed>
by opening the log when its 50+ megabytes 18 hours after the install,
search for the end of it, writing 9 or 10 more lines of error
messages
and closing the log, for every keystroke typed.
The only fix I've found that lets my machine stay up for a few days,
(uptime is 7+ days atm) is to find the .conf files in /etc, and
direct
all that error output to /dev/null. That leaves one line of errors
still going to syslog about every 20 seconds as something in
systemd.d keeps looking for the speech dispatcher over blue tooth,
and there isn't any of that except the keyboad and mouse.
Sounds like you need to kill the service(s) involved using whatever
systemd's equivalent of rc-update is (or overwrite the service files
with no-ops and then make them unwritable so they can't be changed),
blacklist any kernel modules involved, and possibly write some udev
rules to force the problem device to be properly identified. Rather a
tedious process that would have to start with identifying the problem
device and its USB ID. E. Liddell
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
One of the things I have not yet restored.
9:14 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday 27 February 2022 02:23:21 pm gene heskett wrote:
Surely whats been installed should be removable
without destroying the
rest of the system? But that approach isn't on the menu.
Hi Gene,
Okay, I have not read this whole thread, so if I've misunderstood so be it…
MX Linux (Debian derivative) has options during install to ‘preserve home’ and
to not have to reformat the HD. My last install took a total of about 30
minutes and I did not have to reconfigure every TDE package to get them back
to how I like them. Between the two options I probably saved 100 hours
of ‘work.’
HTH, if not best anyways!,
Michael
https://mxlinux.org/download-links/
Note: MX21 now includes systemd.
9:26 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday 27 February 2022 13:14:08 Michael wrote:
On Sunday 27 February 2022 02:23:21 pm gene heskett
wrote:
I did not quite understand what Gene was saying myself, so perhaps he could
clarify?
Regarding MX Linux (or any other Debian type of system), don't you *always*
have that option of preserving your home folder? I've tried AntiX (forget how
it's related to your MX), and looked into MX Linux, but I don't see any
appreciable difference when it comes to "preserving the home folder".
In Debian or Devuan or something similar, pick "expert install" from the menu
choices, don't choose "guided installation", define the size and type of
your
own partitions, and that ought to do it.
Not disputing your advice, Michael; but as I said, you can already preserve
your home folder in Debian or Devuan or Ubuntu or pretty much any other Linux
distro that I've tried. If this is not the case, we need Gene to clarify.
Like yourself (that is, Michael), reinstallation takes me about 30 minutes,
then getting TDE installed is another hour or two at most. So I'm guessing a
couple hours, tops. And I haven't wiped out my home folder since about 2006,
but just copied over the relevant parts, or saved the whole thing to a
separate hard drive.
If Gene keeps losing all his data, then has to go through recovery: that just
doesn't sound right.
Bill
Surely whats been installed should be removable
without destroying the
rest of the system? But that approach isn't on the menu.
Hi Gene,
Okay, I have not read this whole thread, so if I've misunderstood so be it…
MX Linux (Debian derivative) has options during install to ‘preserve home’
and to not have to reformat the HD. My last install took a total of about
30 minutes and I did not have to reconfigure every TDE package to get them
back to how I like them. Between the two options I probably saved 100
hours of ‘work.’
HTH, if not best anyways!,
Michael
28 Feb
28 Feb
1:21 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 4:26:24 PM EST William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
and to not have to reformat the HD. My last install took a
clarify?
On Sunday 27 February 2022 13:14:08 Michael wrote:
> On Sunday 27 February 2022 02:23:21 pm gene heskett wrote:
>
> > Surely whats been installed should be removable without destroying
> > the
rest of the system? But that approach isn't on the menu.
Hi Gene,
Okay, I have not read this whole thread, so if I've misunderstood so
be it…
>
>
> MX Linux (Debian derivative) has options during install to ‘preserve
> home’ total of about
30 minutes and I did not have to reconfigure every
TDE package to get them back to how I like them. Between the two
options I probably saved 100 hours of ‘work.’
HTH, if not best anyways!,
Michael
I did not quite understand what Gene was saying myself, so perhaps he
could
Regarding MX Linux (or any other Debian type of system), don't you
*always*
have that option of preserving your home folder? I've tried
AntiX (forget how it's related to your MX), and
looked into MX Linux,
but I don't see any appreciable difference when it comes to
"preserving the home folder".
In Debian or Devuan or something similar, pick "expert install" from
the menu
choices, don't choose "guided installation", define the
size and type of your own partitions, and that ought
to do it.
Not disputing your advice, Michael; but as I said, you can already
preserve
your home folder in Debian or Devuan or Ubuntu or pretty
much any other Linux distro that I've tried. If
this is not the case,
we need Gene to clarify.
What I'm saying is that the installer can find and assemble the raid10 I
use for home, no problem, but it refuses to proceed with the install if
it isn't commanded to format it, wipeing out around 50 gigs of data that
I recovered from amanda backups without amanda help cuz amanda won't
build on bullseye. Perl and python are both too new. So I'm reduced to
gzip, dd and tar.
Like yourself (that is, Michael), reinstallation takes
me about 30
minutes, then getting TDE installed is another hour or two at most.
So I'm guessing a couple hours, tops. And I haven't wiped out my home
folder since about 2006, but just copied over the relevant parts, or
saved the whole thing to a separate hard drive.
If Gene keeps losing all his data, then has to go through recovery:
that just doesn't sound right.
Bill
+10 or so Bill. Take care and stay well.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
1:28 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sun February 27 2022 17:21:13 gene heskett wrote:
What I'm saying is that the installer can find and
assemble the raid10 I
use for home, no problem, but it refuses to proceed with the install if
it isn't commanded to format it, wipeing out around 50 gigs of data that
I recovered from amanda backups without amanda help cuz amanda won't
build on bullseye. Perl and python are both too new. So I'm reduced to
gzip, dd and tar.
Hi Gene,
What words or other communication mode does the installer use
to refuse your command?
At the point in time when this happens, what is the complete
disk configuration you have told the installed to use?
--Mike
2:43 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 8:28:21 PM EST Mike Bird wrote:
On Sun February 27 2022 17:21:13 gene heskett wrote:
It doesn't refuse per say, but ignores the enter key to proceed.
What I'm saying is that the installer can
find and assemble the
raid10 I use for home, no problem, but it refuses to proceed with
the install if it isn't commanded to format it, wipeing out around
50 gigs of data that I recovered from amanda backups without amanda
help cuz amanda won't build on bullseye. Perl and python are both
too new. So I'm reduced to gzip, dd and tar.
Hi Gene,
What words or other communication mode does the installer use
to refuse your command? At the point in time when this happens, what is the
complete
disk configuration you have told the installed to use?
--Mike
I have /home and quite a few gigs of swap on the raid10 which is 4, 1T
SSD's on its own dumb controller, but the boot drive and the rest of the
system is on a 500Gig SSD. /dv/sda here.
root@coyote:/etc/init.d# df
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
udev 16361920 0 16361920 0% /dev
tmpfs 3274336 1644 3272692 1% /run
/dev/sda5 286294368 5515384 266163024 3% /
tmpfs 16371672 313776 16057896 2% /dev/shm
tmpfs 5120 4 5116 1% /run/lock
/dev/sda1 1020896 47968 902888 6% /boot
/dev/sda7 95541668 36032 90606156 1% /tmp
/dev/sda6 95534500 545464 90089916 1% /var
/dev/md0p1 1796382580 133999276 1571058328 8% /home
tmpfs 3274332 22384 3251948 1% /run/user/1000
/dev/sdb1 229638476 214568940 3331732 99% /sdb1
/sdb1 is a 240G SSD I'm using as a scratchpad for recovering from a 2T
drive labled amandatapes2T but not presently mounted. It has the backups
amanda made of most of my stuff for around 60 days before its twin drive
puked and started this whole nightmare. /sdb1 It has another partition,
unmounted here, that accounts for the missng 10G's.
Thanks Mike, take care and stay well.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
3:27 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sun February 27 2022 18:43:15 gene heskett wrote:
How do you know it is not reformatting your /home that is
causing it to balk rather than some other issue?
What words or
other communication mode does the installer use
to refuse your command?
It doesn't refuse per say, but ignores the enter key to proceed. root@coyote:/etc/init.d# df
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
udev 16361920 0 16361920 0% /dev
tmpfs 3274336 1644 3272692 1% /run
/dev/sda5 286294368 5515384 266163024 3% /
tmpfs 16371672 313776 16057896 2% /dev/shm
tmpfs 5120 4 5116 1% /run/lock
/dev/sda1 1020896 47968 902888 6% /boot
/dev/sda7 95541668 36032 90606156 1% /tmp
/dev/sda6 95534500 545464 90089916 1% /var
/dev/md0p1 1796382580 133999276 1571058328 8% /home
tmpfs 3274332 22384 3251948 1% /run/user/1000
/dev/sdb1 229638476 214568940 3331732 99% /sdb1
That's the current state of your system, not what you
had told the installer.
Maybe the installer should be able to read and use your
old configuration but I don't think it does.
Are you sure you told it which partition to use for / ?
--Mike
11:06 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 10:27:38 PM EST Mike Bird wrote:
On Sun February 27 2022 18:43:15 gene heskett wrote:
How do you know it is not reformatting your /home that is
causing it to balk rather than some other issue?
No progress bar. yes, many many times.
What
words or other communication mode does the installer use
to refuse your command?
It doesn't refuse per say, but ignores the enter key to proceed. root@coyote:/etc/init.d# df
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
udev 16361920 0 16361920 0% /dev
tmpfs 3274336 1644 3272692 1% /run
/dev/sda5 286294368 5515384 266163024 3% /
tmpfs 16371672 313776 16057896 2% /dev/shm
tmpfs 5120 4 5116 1% /run/lock
/dev/sda1 1020896 47968 902888 6% /boot
/dev/sda7 95541668 36032 90606156 1% /tmp
/dev/sda6 95534500 545464 90089916 1% /var
/dev/md0p1 1796382580 133999276 1571058328 8% /home
tmpfs 3274332 22384 3251948 1% /run/user/1000
/dev/sdb1 229638476 214568940 3331732 99% /sdb1
That's the current state of your system, not what you
had told the installer.
Maybe the installer should be able to read and use your
old configuration but I don't think it does.
Are you sure you told it which partition to use for / ?
--Mike
____________________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org
Web mail archive available at
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinity
desktop.org .
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
7:47 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
Anno domini 2022 Sun, 27 Feb 13:26:24 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
[...]
Like yourself (that is, Michael), reinstallation takes me about 30 minutes,
then getting TDE installed is another hour or two at most. So I'm guessing a
couple hours, tops. And I haven't wiped out my home folder since about 2006,
but just copied over the relevant parts, or saved the whole thing to a
separate hard drive.
There could lie your problem buried in some old configs.
Nik
If Gene keeps losing all his data, then has to go through recovery: that just
doesn't sound right.
Bill
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CIA ...
8:25 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday 27 February 2022 23:47:52 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2022 Sun, 27 Feb 13:26:24 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
I do copy my whole home folder to another hard drive, but I don't copy it
wholesale into the new partition for my home folder. I copy in folders or
config files as I need them. I keep the backup of my home folder on a
separate hard drive.
Since 2006 I have done this, learning from my mistakes. I have gone through 3
desktop computers and 5 laptops (if memory serves), so I can usually trace my
problems to their sources. There have been some bumps in the road, but I get
my machines to run as I want. But this is a new thing.
Besides which, this was already done back in December, when I got the laptop
and installed Devuan. Back then it definitely had a few issues, but I
gradually solved my problems.
It was only after I upgraded that all this weirdness with browsers crashing,
etc., started happening. The other things, like text editors acting
strangely, and those visitors on top, they didn't seem too important.
And it may be that those visitors were essential depencies, Gnome or not; but
my point is, I never noticed them before. I check top several times
throughout the day, because at a glance I can tell that things seem to be
normal, or not. And I had never seen those things before, taking up all my
CPU. That didn't seem right.
In any case, those visitors went away. I haven't removed anything essential.
But this problem with browsers remains.
Today I did have palemoon crash once, when I tried to use ublock origin to
block a banner on a site. I got a message that said "gtk2-tqt-engine
(palemoon-gtk-tqt-application) crashed"; I do hope that this is not a sign
that palemoon will also stop working.
Well, I am pondering my next move. It will not do me any good to try to rush
through this, just because I want to use my machine for other things besides
serving the needs of the machine.
Bill
[...]
Like yourself (that is, Michael), reinstallation takes me about 30
minutes, then getting TDE installed is another hour or two at most. So
I'm guessing a couple hours, tops. And I haven't wiped out my home folder
since about 2006, but just copied over the relevant parts, or saved the
whole thing to a separate hard drive.
There could lie your problem buried in some old configs.
Nik
8:44 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
Anno domini 2022 Mon, 28 Feb 00:25:28 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
[...]
Today I did have palemoon crash once, when I tried to use ublock origin to
block a banner on a site. I got a message that said "gtk2-tqt-engine
(palemoon-gtk-tqt-application) crashed"; I do hope that this is not a sign
that palemoon will also stop working.
Ok, "gtk2-tqt-engine" is part of the problem, but I suspect you have already
removed it?
Nik
Well, I am pondering my next move. It will not do me
any good to try to rush
through this, just because I want to use my machine for other things besides
serving the needs of the machine.
Bill
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6:19 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
[...]
Today I did have palemoon crash once, when I tried to use ublock origin to
block a banner on a site. I got a message that said "gtk2-tqt-engine
(palemoon-gtk-tqt-application) crashed"; I do hope that this is not a sign
that palemoon will also stop working.
Ok, "gtk2-tqt-engine" is part of the problem,
but I suspect you have already
removed it?
Nik
Just did a search, and it's not installed.
Bill
1:07 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 4:14:08 PM EST Michael wrote:
On Sunday 27 February 2022 02:23:21 pm gene heskett
wrote:
> Surely whats been installed should be removable without destroying
> the
rest of the system? But that approach isn't on the menu.
Hi Gene,
Okay, I have not read this whole thread, so if I've misunderstood so be
it…
Your synopsis seems to be reasonably correct.
So tell me a bit more about MX-linux please.
MX Linux (Debian derivative) has options during
install to ‘preserve
home’ and
to not have to reformat the HD. My last install took a
total of about 30 minutes and I did not have to
reconfigure every TDE
package to get them back to how I like them. Between the two options
I probably saved 100 hours of ‘work.’
Do I still have to strip my usb tree down to the keyboard and mouse to
keep it from installing orca and brltty?
I don't want an installer like debians that puts a bunch of blind folks
stuff in that wrecks the system in 1 or 2 days just because it finds a
serial port. I'm not again the sight impaired but I think the installer
should ask if that stuff is wanted BEFORE it puts it into the system,
without supplying the tools to remove it. UPS's use it, cm11a's use it
even if nut/heyu thinks its a usb interface. I have a legacy machine from
1985 in the basement that talks to this system thru either a modem like
port based on a 6551 or a high speed bit banger thats actually slightly
faster than a floppy drive. x10 home autmation stuff uses it for two way
com with all its toy's that can do two way.
Then you've a good idea of where I'm coming from.
Final Q, does this MX-linux have a donation page?
HTH, if not best anyways!,
Michael
https://mxlinux.org/download-links/
Note: MX21 now includes systemd.
Take care and stay well, and thanks for the suggestions.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
2:38 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On 2/27/22 5:07 PM, gene heskett wrote:
So tell me a bit more about MX-linux please.
Final Q, does this MX-linux have a donation page?
https://mxlinux.org/
https://mxlinux.org/donate/
I've been using MX for, I think, 6 or 7 years now. For me the attraction is
that it's pretty much straight Debian, in a form that makes it easy to end
up with a working system with all the multimedia stuff ready to go, without
having to make it all work myself. They have a bunch of their own MX tools
for various things, but I rarely use them because I'm usually running TDE.
--
PGP key: http://homestead-products.com/pubkey.htm
2:48 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 9:38:57 PM EST Dan Youngquist wrote:
On 2/27/22 5:07 PM, gene heskett wrote:
Thanks Dan, I'll take a look at it tomorrow when I've both eyes open at
the same time. Its been a very long day.
So tell me a bit more about MX-linux please.
Final Q, does this MX-linux have a donation page?
https://mxlinux.org/
https://mxlinux.org/donate/
I've been using MX for, I think, 6 or 7 years now.
For me the
attraction is that it's pretty much straight Debian, in a form that
makes it easy to end up with a working system with all the multimedia
stuff ready to go, without having to make it all work myself. They
have a bunch of their own MX tools for various things, but I rarely
use them because I'm usually running TDE.
Take care & stay well.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
4:36 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday 27 February 2022 08:48:59 pm gene heskett wrote:
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 9:38:57 PM EST Dan
Youngquist wrote:
Hi Gene,
Additional info for if you decide to use MX (or antiX).
Their MX Package Installer* is extremely useful and one of the easiest ways to
install NVIDIA drivers and VirtualBox I’ve ever used. But there are a couple
apps that don’t install well from TDE, so it is best to use it in their
default desktop (Xfce) rather than TDE. (The MX dev’s and I did try to fully
integrate it with TDE in MX19 but we never got all the bugs out.)
Here’s the TDE install page for MX:
https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/MX_Linux_Trinity_Repository_Installation_In…
It’s only up to MX-19, but I believe MX-21 should be the same. Note: I will
be moving to antiX-21, not MX-21, so I won’t be updating that page any
longer.
Ah, last thoughts, both MX and antiX** have really good Live USBs. Trying
either, or both, first should identify if they’ll help with the issues in
this thread. I’ll bow out now (since I haven’t kept up with this whole
thread), but if you need any MX help just holler.
HTH,
Michael
* MX Package Installer
Menu > MX Tools > MX Package Installer
** https://antixlinux.com/the-most-extensive-live-usb-on-the-planet/
On 2/27/22 5:07 PM, gene heskett wrote:
Thanks Dan, I'll take a look at it tomorrow when I've both eyes open at
the same time. Its been a very long day.
So tell me a bit more about MX-linux please.
Final Q, does this MX-linux have a donation page?
https://mxlinux.org/
https://mxlinux.org/donate/ I've been using MX for, I think, 6 or 7 years
now. For me the
attraction is that it's pretty much straight Debian, in a form that
makes it easy to end up with a working system with all the multimedia
stuff ready to go, without having to make it all work myself. They
have a bunch of their own MX tools for various things, but I rarely
use them because I'm usually running TDE.
Take care & stay well.
Cheers, Gene Heskett. 
4:40 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
Hi Folks:
If you want a full TDE integrated MX 21, please let me know. I have a
remastered version which is my daily desktop. I also have LXDE, Gnome,
xfce, and others.
Thanks,
John
On February 27, 2022 11:38:31 p.m. Michael
<mb_trinity_desktop(a)inet-design.com> wrote:
On Sunday 27 February 2022 08:48:59 pm gene heskett
wrote:
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 9:38:57 PM EST Dan
Youngquist wrote:
Hi Gene,
Additional info for if you decide to use MX (or antiX).
Their MX Package Installer* is extremely useful and one of the easiest ways to
install NVIDIA drivers and VirtualBox I’ve ever used. But there are a couple
apps that don’t install well from TDE, so it is best to use it in their
default desktop (Xfce) rather than TDE. (The MX dev’s and I did try to fully
integrate it with TDE in MX19 but we never got all the bugs out.)
Here’s the TDE install page for MX:
https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/MX_Linux_Trinity_Repository_Installation_In…
It’s only up to MX-19, but I believe MX-21 should be the same. Note: I will
be moving to antiX-21, not MX-21, so I won’t be updating that page any
longer.
Ah, last thoughts, both MX and antiX** have really good Live USBs. Trying
either, or both, first should identify if they’ll help with the issues in
this thread. I’ll bow out now (since I haven’t kept up with this whole
thread), but if you need any MX help just holler.
HTH,
Michael
* MX Package Installer
Menu > MX Tools > MX Package Installer
** https://antixlinux.com/the-most-extensive-live-usb-on-the-planet/
____________________________________________________
tde-users mailing list -- users(a)trinitydesktop.org
To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org
Web mail archive available at
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt… On 2/27/22 5:07 PM, gene heskett wrote:
Thanks Dan, I'll take a look at it tomorrow when I've both eyes open at
the same time. Its been a very long day.
So tell me a bit more about MX-linux please.
Final Q, does this MX-linux have a donation page?
https://mxlinux.org/
https://mxlinux.org/donate/ I've been using MX for, I think, 6 or 7 years
now. For me the
attraction is that it's pretty much straight Debian, in a form that
makes it easy to end up with a working system with all the multimedia
stuff ready to go, without having to make it all work myself. They
have a bunch of their own MX tools for various things, but I rarely
use them because I'm usually running TDE.
Take care & stay well.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
11:31 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 11:40:42 PM EST John Cassidy wrote:
Hi Folks:
If you want a full TDE integrated MX 21, please let me know. I have a
remastered version which is my daily desktop. I also have LXDE, Gnome,
xfce, and others.
Thanks,
John
On February 27, 2022 11:38:31 p.m. Michael
<mb_trinity_desktop(a)inet-design.com> wrote:
> On Sunday 27 February 2022 08:48:59 pm gene heskett wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 27, 2022 9:38:57 PM EST Dan Youngquist wrote:
>> > On 2/27/22 5:07 PM, gene heskett wrote:
>> > > So tell me a bit more about MX-linux please.
>> > > Final Q, does this MX-linux have a donation page?
>> >
>> > https://mxlinux.org/
>> > https://mxlinux.org/donate/
>>
>> Thanks Dan, I'll take a look at it tomorrow when I've both eyes open
>> at the same time. Its been a very long day.
>>
>> > I've been using MX for, I think, 6 or 7 years now. For me the
>> > attraction is that it's pretty much straight Debian, in a form
>> > that
>> > makes it easy to end up with a working system with all the
>> > multimedia
>> > stuff ready to go, without having to make it all work myself.
>> > They
>> > have a bunch of their own MX tools for various things, but I
>> > rarely
>> > use them because I'm usually running TDE.
>>
>> Take care & stay well.
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
>
> Hi Gene,
>
> Additional info for if you decide to use MX (or antiX).
>
> Their MX Package Installer* is extremely useful and one of the
> easiest ways to install NVIDIA drivers and VirtualBox I’ve ever
> used. But there are a couple apps that don’t install well from TDE,
> so it is best to use it in their default desktop (Xfce) rather than
> TDE. (The MX dev’s and I did try to fully integrate it with TDE in
> MX19 but we never got all the bugs out.)
>
> Here’s the TDE install page for MX:
>
> https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/MX_Linux_Trinity_Repository_Installat
> ion_Instructions
>
> It’s only up to MX-19, but I believe MX-21 should be the same. Note:
> I will be moving to antiX-21, not MX-21, so I won’t be updating that
> page any longer.
>
> Ah, last thoughts, both MX and antiX** have really good Live USBs.
> Trying either, or both, first should identify if they’ll help with
> the issues in this thread. I’ll bow out now (since I haven’t kept
> up with this whole thread), but if you need any MX help just holler.
>
> HTH,
> Michael
>
> * MX Package Installer
> Menu > MX Tools > MX Package Installer
>
> ** https://antixlinux.com/the-most-extensive-live-usb-on-the-planet/
I like the propaganda of this one, but its a UEFI install, something I've
so far refused to enable. It too much like the camel sticking it head
into the tent, pretty soon only M$ stuff will work. Or M$ decides it
won't work, killing 3/4ths of the machines on the planet. BG and I have
had our differences but he made a mistake when he called me a pirate in
the early days of NT-3.51. NT-3.51 had a habit of its housekeeping disk
checker deleting the main .dll library so you had to buy a new copy of
NT-3.51 for around $400 in order to recover. I had it happen to 2
machines at about the same age. Draw your own conclusions.
>
____________________________________________________
> tde-users mailing list -- users(a)trinitydesktop.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org
> Web mail archive available at
> https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinit
> ydesktop.org
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
4:11 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Monday 28 February 2022 05:31:43 am gene heskett wrote:
I like the propaganda of this one, but its a UEFI install, something I've
I'm pretty sure UEFI is just legacy support as the page says. (Or at least it
didn't install that on my system...)
6:03 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Monday, February 28, 2022 11:11:21 AM EST Michael wrote:
On Monday 28 February 2022 05:31:43 am gene heskett
wrote:
I dl'd it, but will have to wait till I get a usb stick big enough to
work it, and maybe edit out the stuff that created this debacle.
I need a couple reams of paper, so I'll check wally's stock while I'm
there. But today I'm walking carefully, I think I broke a little toe
saturday and it is still complaining today.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
I like the propaganda of this one, but its a UEFI install, something
I've
I'm pretty sure UEFI is just legacy support as the page says. (Or
at
least it didn't install that on my system...)
4:42 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
Also, just a quick note, I also have hwcorners, and skipoy-xd built into
it. You can use hot corners with twin, xfce, enlightenment, LXDE, etc.
Without compiz. Although I have compiz in there as well:)
On February 27, 2022 11:38:31 p.m. Michael
<mb_trinity_desktop(a)inet-design.com> wrote:
On Sunday 27 February 2022 08:48:59 pm gene heskett
wrote:
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 9:38:57 PM EST Dan
Youngquist wrote:
Hi Gene,
Additional info for if you decide to use MX (or antiX).
Their MX Package Installer* is extremely useful and one of the easiest ways to
install NVIDIA drivers and VirtualBox I’ve ever used. But there are a couple
apps that don’t install well from TDE, so it is best to use it in their
default desktop (Xfce) rather than TDE. (The MX dev’s and I did try to fully
integrate it with TDE in MX19 but we never got all the bugs out.)
Here’s the TDE install page for MX:
https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/MX_Linux_Trinity_Repository_Installation_In…
It’s only up to MX-19, but I believe MX-21 should be the same. Note: I will
be moving to antiX-21, not MX-21, so I won’t be updating that page any
longer.
Ah, last thoughts, both MX and antiX** have really good Live USBs. Trying
either, or both, first should identify if they’ll help with the issues in
this thread. I’ll bow out now (since I haven’t kept up with this whole
thread), but if you need any MX help just holler.
HTH,
Michael
* MX Package Installer
Menu > MX Tools > MX Package Installer
** https://antixlinux.com/the-most-extensive-live-usb-on-the-planet/
____________________________________________________
tde-users mailing list -- users(a)trinitydesktop.org
To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org
Web mail archive available at
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt… On 2/27/22 5:07 PM, gene heskett wrote:
Thanks Dan, I'll take a look at it tomorrow when I've both eyes open at
the same time. Its been a very long day.
So tell me a bit more about MX-linux please.
Final Q, does this MX-linux have a donation page?
https://mxlinux.org/
https://mxlinux.org/donate/ I've been using MX for, I think, 6 or 7 years
now. For me the
attraction is that it's pretty much straight Debian, in a form that
makes it easy to end up with a working system with all the multimedia
stuff ready to go, without having to make it all work myself. They
have a bunch of their own MX tools for various things, but I rarely
use them because I'm usually running TDE.
Take care & stay well.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
12:05 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:23:21 -0500
gene heskett <gheskett(a)shentel.net> wrote:
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 1:01:06 PM EST E. Liddell
wrote:
A full reinstall shouldn't be necessary—it sounds like someone at the
Debian end is fond of the Windows approach to problems and doesn't
want to troubleshoot whatever misconfiguration is going on here.
0403:6001 is indeed a generic USB<->serial chip, per
https://usb-ids.gowdy.us/read/UD/0403/6001 , and shouldn't be getting
recognized as anything else. However, your biggest problem seems to
be systemd pulling in unwanted text-to-speech services early in the boot
process. If you can figure out the name of orca's systemd service,
you should be able to disable or mask it per
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/three-levels-of-off . That should (as far
as this OpenRC user can tell, anyway) make it possible to boot your
system without extreme lag. The trick is likely to be making sure it
stays off when your distro is attempting to be "helpful".
E. Liddell
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 10:59:33 -0500
gene heskett <gheskett(a)shentel.net> wrote:
idVendor 0x0403 Future Technology Devices International, Ltd
idProduct 0x6001 FT232 Serial (UART) IC
idVendor 0x0403 Future Technology Devices International, Ltd
idProduct 0x6001 FT232 Serial (UART) IC
That device seems to be the device triggering all this hate and
discontent, but the differences in priority of whats to be done boggles
my mind. someplace in my USB tree, there's at least
one, and probably more,
FDTI usb to serial adaptors that the installer THINKS is a Braille
driver, so it, without asking, installs brltty and orca, the speech
enabled screen reader no one can understand. And it, if you remove
the stuff after the install is done, will NOT reboot past the 10
second mark in the boot log cuz its stuck looking for that crap and
can't find it.
Very damned distracting when its trying to pronounce every key you
type and no one knows how to remove it without filling the boot
drive with>
/var/log/syslog until the system is unusable because of the lags
imposed>
by opening the log when its 50+ megabytes 18 hours after the install,
search for the end of it, writing 9 or 10 more lines of error
messages
and closing the log, for every keystroke typed.
The only fix I've found that lets my machine stay up for a few days,
(uptime is 7+ days atm) is to find the .conf files in /etc, and
direct
all that error output to /dev/null. That leaves one line of errors
still going to syslog about every 20 seconds as something in
systemd.d keeps looking for the speech dispatcher over blue tooth,
and there isn't any of that except the keyboad and mouse.
Sounds like you need to kill the service(s) involved using whatever
systemd's equivalent of rc-update is (or overwrite the service files
with no-ops and then make them unwritable so they can't be changed),
blacklist any kernel modules involved, and possibly write some udev
rules to force the problem device to be properly identified. Rather a
tedious process that would have to start with identifying the problem
device and its USB ID.
2:24 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday, February 27, 2022 7:05:01 PM EST E. Liddell wrote:
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:23:21 -0500
gene heskett <gheskett(a)shentel.net> wrote:
> On Sunday, February 27, 2022 1:01:06 PM EST E. Liddell wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 10:59:33 -0500
> >
> > gene heskett <gheskett(a)shentel.net> wrote:
> >
> > > someplace in my USB tree, there's at least one, and probably
> > > more,
> > > FDTI usb to serial adaptors that the installer THINKS is a
> > > Braille
> > > driver, so it, without asking, installs brltty and orca, the
> > > speech
> > > enabled screen reader no one can understand. And it, if you
> > > remove
> > > the stuff after the install is done, will NOT reboot past the 10
> > > second mark in the boot log cuz its stuck looking for that crap
> > > and
> > > can't find it.
> > >
> > > Very damned distracting when its trying to pronounce every key
> > > you
> > > type and no one knows how to remove it without filling the boot
> > > drive with>
> > >
> > > /var/log/syslog until the system is unusable because of the lags
> > >
> > > imposed>
> > >
> > > by opening the log when its 50+ megabytes 18 hours after the
> > > install,
> > > search for the end of it, writing 9 or 10 more lines of error
> > > messages
> > > and closing the log, for every keystroke typed.
> > >
> > > The only fix I've found that lets my machine stay up for a few
> > > days,
> > > (uptime is 7+ days atm) is to find the .conf files in /etc, and
> > > direct
> > > all that error output to /dev/null. That leaves one line of
> > > errors
> > > still going to syslog about every 20 seconds as something in
> > > systemd.d keeps looking for the speech dispatcher over blue
> > > tooth,
> > > and there isn't any of that except the keyboad and mouse.
> >
> >
> > Sounds like you need to kill the service(s) involved using
> > whatever
> > systemd's equivalent of rc-update is (or overwrite the service
> > files
> > with no-ops and then make them unwritable so they can't be
> > changed),
> > blacklist any kernel modules involved, and possibly write some
> > udev
> > rules to force the problem device to be properly identified.
> > Rather a
tedious process that would have to start with
> > identifying the problem device and its USB
ID.
>
>
> idVendor 0x0403 Future Technology Devices International,
> Ltd
idProduct 0x6001 FT232 Serial (UART) IC
>
> idVendor 0x0403 Future Technology Devices International,
> Ltd
idProduct 0x6001 FT232 Serial (UART) IC
>
> That device seems to be the device triggering all this hate and
> discontent, but the differences in priority of whats to be done
> boggles
my mind.
A full reinstall shouldn't be necessary—it sounds like someone at the
Debian end is fond of the Windows approach to problems and doesn't
want to troubleshoot whatever misconfiguration is going on here.
0403:6001 is indeed a generic USB<->serial chip, per
https://usb-ids.gowdy.us/read/UD/0403/6001 , and shouldn't be getting
recognized as anything else. However, your biggest problem seems to
be systemd pulling in unwanted text-to-speech services early in the
boot
process. If you can figure out the name of orca's systemd
service, you should be able to disable or mask it per
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/three-levels-of-off .
Aha, a web page I can print,
black text on a white screen. So lets see if
I can make this stuff work. orca is I think, speech-dispatcher.service
looks like I have disabled brltty, and stopped thr running 6 olr 7
copies. But orca is in the middle of this too but I cannot see it in
htop. So to page 3, and masking. but orca.service does not exist in that
path used in the example. If this was so easy as that, why the hell
didn't somebody at debian suggest it? Mind boggling that I've been put
thru this BS since last October. One last look at the same stuff in /lib/
systemd/system, which does have a speech-dispatcher.service:
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1122 Sep 19 09:55 speech-dispatcherd.service
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 26 Sep 19 09:55 speech-dispatcher.service ->
speech-dispatcherd.service
So how do I properly dispose of that? I assume it will be executed on
reboot since theres nothing like it in the /etc copy, which will then
need yet another install, and I start all over again from square one
because debian won't fix their installer.
Or, since grep -R can't find a mention of orca, am I barking up the wrong
tree? IDK. And I just fount another speech-dispatcher in /etc/init.d, but
it calls festival to drive me to drink, not orca. Call me confused, but
not too late for dinner. ;o)
That should (as far as this OpenRC user can tell,
anyway) make it
possible to boot
your system without extreme lag. The trick is likely
to be making
sure it stays off when your distro is attempting to be "helpful".
E. Liddell
Thank you, I think I got rid of he brltty part of this with your help.
That after going on 4 months, has to be progress.
Take care and stay well.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
27 Feb
27 Feb
4:14 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On 2/27/22 5:43 AM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
I hope this makes clear the general sequence of events
that led me into this
mess. As I pointed out earlier, if these browsers work fine in XFCE but not
in TDE, then it seems to me that this ought to concern us who run TDE, as it
could be a sign of what's to come.
Did you install TDE using the tde-trinity metapackage, or some other way? I
think, in your position, I would purge TDE, reinstall using the metapackage,
and see what happens. If that doesn't work, next thing I would try is some
other distro, like MX Linux.
--
PGP key: http://homestead-products.com/pubkey.htm
6:29 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sun, Feb 27, 2022 at 05:43:25AM -0800, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
This started maybe the 23rd, the day after that robot
cartoon that I sent;
You sent the robot cartoon to the list yesterday (Saturday 26th).
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt…
For the record, as I stated before, I had voided my
warranty within the first
day or so, once I had my new SSD.
Merely replacing the hard drive should not void your warranty.
Within the first few days, I had it up and running
tolerably well, and since
then it had only ever improved. Up until a few days ago, things were working
well, and I had not really changed much of anything. LibreOffice worked, but
it's the GUI interface that hurts my eyes and makes it hard to work.
Have you considered using LibreOffice themes?
https://ask.libreoffice.org/t/how-to-change-themes/4764/2
the breakage was already happening after a simple
upgrade from the same system which had been running stable since early
December.
...
Sorry for the lengthy description; but I wanted to lay
to rest the false
notion that I somehow did this to myself by removing essential packages. All
I did was a simple upgrade.
It is conceivable that an upgrade broke something, but that's not how
your emails set out the chain of events. According to the emails you
sent earlier, you spotted some unexpected entries in top, removed a
bunch of packages until those entries went away, and only then, did the
browsers stop working.
Earlier you suggested that the unwelcome entries in top "seem to have
been dragged in when I trying to get tork-trinity working". If those
libraries were dependencies of tork-trinity, why did you remove them?
Over the course of these threads, you have said that you have
reinstalled the OS multiple times, "and had already pruned everything
that seemed to be the cause", you have copied over the preferences
from your old desktop, you forcefully removed packages that were
marked as hard dependencies with dpkg --prune --force-all, and who knows
what else you have done.
You have made so many changes to what *was* a working system, it doesn't
surprise me that things are not working correctly.
I am not an expert on the detailed internals of how gtk+ libraries are
dynamically linked with applications, but given that your browsers are
working correctly under xfce now, I think it would be worth logging
out, logging back in to TDE, and see if they work again.
And if they do work now, for pity's sake, stop removing packages!
--
Steve
7:24 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
Merely replacing the hard drive should not void your
warranty.
It was a joke. Installing Linux "voids the warranty"; I don't really intend
to
return the laptop. I'm sure it's a pretty good machine, if I can ever get it
running right. But just using it since early December, putting into my bag,
taking it out again, that has caused it to look just a bit used. So I don't
think it would work, putting the original hard drive back in, then trying to
return it for a refund.
;-)
Have you considered using LibreOffice themes?
https://ask.libreoffice.org/t/how-to-change-themes/4764/2
Will look into it, thanks.
> the breakage was already happening after a simple
> upgrade from the same system which had been running stable since early
> December.
It is conceivable that an upgrade broke something, but
that's not how
your emails set out the chain of events. According to the emails you
sent earlier, you spotted some unexpected entries in top, removed a
bunch of packages until those entries went away, and only then, did the
browsers stop working.
I did not remove a "bunch of packages" I tried to find the source of whatever
made those unwelcome visitors appear so prominently in top. I didn't actually
remove those items.
Earlier you suggested that the unwelcome entries in top "seem to have
been dragged in when I trying to get tork-trinity working". If those
libraries were dependencies of tork-trinity, why did you remove them?
The items were not dependencies of tork-trinity. I was trying to find
tork-trinity dependencies (libevent, geoclue, etc.), but installed some
near-namesakes by mistake. It was those extra packages that I removed.
Over the course of these threads, you have said that
you have
reinstalled the OS multiple times, "and had already pruned everything
that seemed to be the cause", you have copied over the preferences
from your old desktop, you forcefully removed packages that were
marked as hard dependencies with dpkg --prune --force-all, and who knows
what else you have done.
You have made so many changes to what *was* a working system, it doesn't
surprise me that things are not working correctly.
And I kept track of what was removed. And I reinstalled them, to no effect.
And then I did a complete reinstallation. By "pruning" I meant that I did not
follow my usual method for installation on a system that is running
comfortably well.
I have text files saved that have a list of packages to be installed, so that
I only have to paste in those names. I kept my old lists from my desktop,
which was running Devuan Beowulf. I copied over my home folder to my laptop,
tried to follow those lists to install Devuan Chimaera to the laptop. And for
the most part, this worked just fine. A few things had changed, and I
adapted.
And by the way, I've been doing it like this since I started running KDE3,
back in about 2006-2008 or so. I've run either KDE3 or TDE since then. I have
gone through PC Linux, Kubuntu Hardy Heron 8.04x, Debian since about 6 or 7,
I believe, and then switched to Devuan since Jessie.
Never seen anything like this.
I am not an expert on the detailed internals of how gtk+ libraries are
dynamically linked with applications, but given that your browsers are
working correctly under xfce now, I think it would be worth logging
out, logging back in to TDE, and see if they work again.
And if they do work now, for pity's sake, stop removing packages!
When I put things back to how they were before (because I have all the saved
packages, and lists of what I installed when), I am able to reproduce what I
did. When I reinstall, and try to put the system back to how it was before,
this same problem occurs. It doesn't matter that I tried to put it back the
same as before.
Bill
7:48 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
Anno domini 2022 Sun, 27 Feb 11:24:29 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
[...]
When I put things back to how they were before (because I have all the saved
packages, and lists of what I installed when), I am able to reproduce what I
did. When I reinstall, and try to put the system back to how it was before,
this same problem occurs. It doesn't matter that I tried to put it back the
same as before.
There might be a gotcha: look into /etc/alternatives - these do not get rebuild to the
same links that you might expect. GNOMEs just started to place "xdg-open" as
alternative to "open" in there (including the manpage) and it looks like the
last package installed wins.
Nik
Bill
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8 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sunday 27 February 2022 11:48:03 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2022 Sun, 27 Feb 11:24:29 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
But wouldn't /etc/* (thus also everything inside it) get overwritten in a
fresh installation? If so, why does it persist? When I try to go back to
whatever installs by default, I still have this problem.
I do try to follow the rules, but I get the same results either way when it
comes to these browsers not starting, etc.
Bill
[...]
When I put things back to how they were before (because I have all the
saved packages, and lists of what I installed when), I am able to
reproduce what I did. When I reinstall, and try to put the system back to
how it was before, this same problem occurs. It doesn't matter that I
tried to put it back the same as before.
There might be a gotcha: look into /etc/alternatives - these do not get
rebuild to the same links that you might expect. GNOMEs just started to
place "xdg-open" as alternative to "open" in there (including the
manpage)
and it looks like the last package installed wins.
Nik
28 Feb
28 Feb
7:58 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
Anno domini 2022 Sun, 27 Feb 12:00:21 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Sunday 27 February 2022 11:48:03 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
It would. But the "alternatives" system imposed by deian does not work as the
package system. In packages you cannot have 2 or more binaries of the same name in the
same place and a random procedure decides what binary you want to use. The
"alternatives" does exactly this: by some random order one of several binaries
that are supposed to do the same thing are linked to /etc/alternatives". What could
possibly go wrong with that? Just try "man open": When you have xdg-utils
installed, it giver the manpage of "xdg-open". When you have xdg-utils not
installed, it gives the manpage of "open". How cool is that!
Nik
Anno domini 2022 Sun, 27 Feb 11:24:29 -0800
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
But wouldn't /etc/* (thus also everything inside it) get overwritten in a
fresh installation? If so, why does it persist? When I try to go back to
whatever installs by default, I still have this problem. [...]
When I put things back to how they were before (because I have all the
saved packages, and lists of what I installed when), I am able to
reproduce what I did. When I reinstall, and try to put the system back to
how it was before, this same problem occurs. It doesn't matter that I
tried to put it back the same as before.
There might be a gotcha: look into /etc/alternatives - these do not get
rebuild to the same links that you might expect. GNOMEs just started to
place "xdg-open" as alternative to "open" in there (including the
manpage)
and it looks like the last package installed wins.
Nik
I do try to follow the rules, but I get the same results either way when it
comes to these browsers not starting, etc.
Bill
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Web mail archive available at
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Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
9:10 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - the whole sad history
On Sun February 27 2022 23:58:05 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
It would. But the "alternatives" system
imposed by deian does not work as
the package system. In packages you cannot have 2 or more binaries of the
same name in the same place and a random procedure decides what binary you
want to use. The "alternatives" does exactly this: by some random order one
of several binaries that are supposed to do the same thing are linked to
/etc/alternatives". What could possibly go wrong with that? Just try "man
open": When you have xdg-utils installed, it giver the manpage of
"xdg-open". When you have xdg-utils not installed, it gives the manpage of
"open". How cool is that!
Maybe "man update-alternatives" would help?
--Mike
26 Feb
26 Feb
5:36 p.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - work on XFCE but not on TDE
Okay, so I am tempted to start a new thread, due to this late breaking news.
All those problematic browsers start up in XFCE just fine, but not in TDE. I
was able to use vivaldi-snapshot to check my bank account. (I am pleased to
find out that I still have some money, and even a few beans more due to
interest. The library has not revoked my privileges for overdue books. And
oh, I have some packages to pick up at the post office. Just thought you'd
like to know what I have been missing without my usual browsers.) In any
case, if these work in XFCE, one would hope the same for TDE.
I am trying to trace any issues back to their sources, but from what I see by
comparing both desktops, it does seem to be caused by something Gnomish.
At this point, I think it can be declared to be a TDE problem (at least from
my perspective), and soon to be a problem for everybody who uses TDE; or
maybe just TDE with a Debian-based system, or maybe just TDE with Devuan. I
haven't sorted that part out yet.
It doesn't seem to have anything to do with non-free and contrib in my sources
list. At least, when I did an upgrade, it only upgraded packages that I
already had, and which I had recently upgraded without enabling non-free and
contrib in my sources.list.
I did already purge those gtk3 and gtk2 Trinity packages, as recommended by
Slavek, Nik, and others; doesn't seem to matter.
My guess is that this is an issue that others will also start to experience,
whenever next they do an upgrade or reinstallation. I don't know if it
affects Trinity's PSB or PTB repositories; so far I can't get out of the
stable builds.
I am off to hunt down any fugitive Gnomes hiding in my system If anybody has
any ideas or suggestions about these matters, I'd love to hear them.
Bill
12:41 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
On Friday 25 February 2022 06:01:41 pm Jim wrote:
One more try...
On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 14:22 (-0800), William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Ah, thanks Jim, you made me remember KsysGuard.
Hi Bill,
Menu > System > KsysGuard >> (tab) Process Table
Per mine all 3 of:
applet.py
agent
at-spi-bus-laun
are part of tdeinit.
So!... Make sure all three of those are put back into your system.
Best,
Michael
Now all of a sudden this issue, with almost none
of my usual browsers
able to start up at all: it's blind-sided me, and I don't even know where
to look for the cause.
Note that unless you have a very long window, a process that isn't
using much CPU time might be far enough down the list that you won't
see it with top or htop. If you really want to know whether it is
there, open a second terminal window and try typing the command
ps axuw | grep firefox
(or grep for whatever browser you tried to start that "isn't
starting") and let us know what it says.
Jim
1:01 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
Hi Bill,
Menu > System > KsysGuard >> (tab) Process Table
Per mine all 3 of:
applet.py
agent
at-spi-bus-laun
are part of tdeinit.
So!... Make sure all three of those are put back into your system.
Best,
Michael
Yeah, as I said, I didn't actually uninstall those items. I searched for what
programs would cause those things to run. But please don't ask me how or
what, because that was done before I reinstalled my OS. Mainly I just did not
install some packages, when I reinstalled my OS, rather than uninstalling
these items from a running system.
I lock my konsole windows to a specific desktop; but to use alsamixer on the
same desktop as my media player, I start xfce terminal, because, you know,
it's there and convenient. It's always worked okay, but now running the
command xfce4- terminal won't start it.
Just for the heck of it, I tried starting xfce4-terminal from a terminal
(dunno if that's a good idea or not), and I get the same kind of message as
with my non-starting browsers.
$ xfce4-terminal
(xfce4-terminal:26359): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:59:47.126: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected.
Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
Trace/breakpoint trap
Bill
1:14 a.m.
New subject: non-starting browsers - more info
Here's an idea, for what it is worth...
On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 17:01 (-0800), William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Just for the heck of it, I tried starting
xfce4-terminal from a terminal
(dunno if that's a good idea or not), and I get the same kind of message as
with my non-starting browsers.
$ xfce4-terminal
(xfce4-terminal:26359): Gtk-ERROR **: 16:59:47.126: GTK+ 2.x symbols detected.
Using GTK+ 2.x and GTK+ 3 in the same process is not supported
Trace/breakpoint trap
try this:
xf=`which xfce4-terminal`
for i in `ldd $xf | sed -e 's/.*=> //' -e 's/ .*//'`
do
echo "=========================" ; echo looking at library $i; ldd $i ; echo
done | less
When in less, type
/libgtk
to find a line (if any) with something like
libgtk2 or libgtk-2
and then hold down the
k
key to go backwards until you find a line like
looking at library XXX
and then I'd guess that XXX is the broken library. But if this is a
new install, I'm not sure why/how you would have a broken library.
But we can actually learn something from the Micro$oft three R's
retry (you've done that)
reboot (maybe you've done that)
reinstall (maybe just the package with library XXX in it)
Good luck.
Jim
782
days inactive
784
days old
68 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
Dan Youngquist -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
E. Liddell -
gene heskett -
Jim -
John Cassidy -
Michael -
Mike Bird -
Steven D'Aprano -
Thierry de Coulon -
William Morder