7 May
2019
7 May
'19
3:51 a.m.
Maybe the better question would be does anyone here have any users using POTS and
WINE, and if so, on which distro? I haven't haven't suffered POTS or known more
than one who has in close to 20 years. The one who has is the owner of the target.
He has zero competence in computer setup or maintenance, historically struggling
to do much more with internet than collect Windows malware. His email is Juno.
Absent a suggestion backed by recent experience with POTS and WINE, I'll be
choosing between Mageia, openSUSE and Debian.
Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz dual core with 2GB RAM and GM965
14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only IceWM for X)
on it now, which will stay.
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
7 May
7 May
4:48 p.m.
On Monday 06 May 2019 10:51:51 pm Felix Miata wrote:
Maybe the better question would be does anyone here
have any users using
POTS and WINE, and if so, on which distro? I haven't haven't suffered POTS
or known more than one who has in close to 20 years. The one who has is the
owner of the target. He has zero competence in computer setup or
maintenance, historically struggling to do much more with internet than
collect Windows malware. His email is Juno.
Absent a suggestion backed by recent experience with POTS and WINE, I'll be
choosing between Mageia, openSUSE and Debian.
Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz dual core with 2GB RAM and
GM965 14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only
IceWM for X) on it now, which will stay.
Hi Felix,
Q’s first:
- POTS as he connects to the Internet by telephone dial up?
- Juno as in Juno WebMail or through a mail client?
Otherwise:
- User has No computer skills.
- Needs Wine. (for what?)
- Computer’s technology is 10+ years old.
# # #
Based upon just the ‘zero competence in computer’ try him on a MX Linux Live
USB in persistent mode [1]? That should be about the easiest way for you to
test if the hardware can handle it and once that’s figured out, then you can
add TDE.
Best,
Michael
[1]
Update the release references to 18.x on
https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/create-a-live-usb-w-persist-from-a-windows-…
and
https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/MX_Linux_Trinity_Repository_Installation_In…
This might also help,
http://inet-design.com/blogs/michael/how-create-bootable-usb-stick-iso-imag…
Or just search, https://mxlinux.org/?s=make+live+usb+persistence
8 May
8 May
2:16 a.m.
Michael composed on 2019-05-07 11:48 (UTC-0500):
Felix Miata wrote:
> Maybe the better question would be does anyone
here have any users using
> POTS and WINE, and if so, on which distro? I haven't haven't suffered POTS
> or known more than one who has in close to 20 years. The one who has is the
> owner of the target. He has zero competence in computer setup or
> maintenance, historically struggling to do much more with internet than
> collect Windows malware. His email is Juno.
> Absent a suggestion backed by recent experience
with POTS and WINE, I'll be
> choosing between Mageia, openSUSE and Debian.
> Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz
dual core with 2GB RAM and
> GM965 14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only
> IceWM for X) on it now, which will stay.
Q’s first:
- POTS as he connects to the Internet by telephone
dial up?
Plain Old Telephone Service (land line). For a long time he had wifi, but it
recently disappeared.
- Juno as in Juno WebMail or through a mail client?
I doubt he knows what a mail client is, though possibly in the past he might have
used a proprietary Juno or Netzero or other cheap proprietary ISP client.
Otherwise:
- User has No computer skills.
He has a tablet to use when he can get a free wifi connection, which is rare where
he lives. Let's say minimal any kind of skills. He's physically and mentally
challenged to a degree I don't have a handle on, living on disability his whole
life. He accidentally had his head bashed (before he reached his teens is as much
as he remembers).
- Needs Wine. (for what?)
Dunno. Maybe he doesn't. Sometimes he throws out Windows app names I've never
heard of. His poor memory keeps me challenged.
- Computer’s technology is 10+ years old.
12 or so, first generation of Intel GPUs (GMA X3100) supported by Xorg's
modesetting DDX.
# # #
Based upon just the ‘zero competence in computer’ try
him on a MX Linux Live
USB in persistent mode [1]? That should be about the easiest way for you to
test if the hardware can handle it and once that’s figured out, then you can
add TDE.
I don't do USB except for occasional rescues. My interest isn't so much in what
the hardware can support as a desktop he and I and POTS can work with, with an
emphasis on minimal effort from me when he needs help. Without broadband, his
phone is tied up with internet connection at the times he needs to call for help.
Or so I thought. I just found out he has a cell phone too. Must be an Obama phone.
I already have minimal openSUSE 15.1 and TDE on Debian Buster installations on two
of five / partitions I allocated for root filesystems. That leaves two possible
distros/desktops to try besides IceWM and TDE (there will be two openSUSE 15.1:
the existing, which will be for me only for fixing breakage on the other four, and
one for him).
[1]
Update the release references to 18.x on
https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/create-a-live-usb-w-persist-from-a-windows-…
and
https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/MX_Linux_Trinity_Repository_Installation_In…
This might also help,
http://inet-design.com/blogs/michael/how-create-bootable-usb-stick-iso-imag…
Or just search,
https://mxlinux.org/?s=make+live+usb+persistence
AFAICT, MX is XFCE-focused. I don't like XFCE (or Gnome, the reason why I jumped
on KDE1 when I discovered it), or that it's built on a gtk3 foundation, which may
be why.
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757142 (wontfix)
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1269274 (wontfix)
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1420743 (wontfix)
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830 (FIXED)
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1269145 (fixed)
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=781807 (wontfix)
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
7:14 a.m.
On Tuesday 07 May 2019 19:16:59 Felix Miata wrote:
Michael composed on 2019-05-07 11:48 (UTC-0500):
He would probably be better off sticking with Windoze (I hate to say it), but
I imagine that a large part of the problem here is money, and I wouldn't
recommend that anybody use pirated versions, either, which are possibly the
only thing worse than Windoze itself.
So you're trying to help somebody less fortunate, which is a good thing. From
what I gather of the situation, I would recommend something like PINGuy Linux
(based on Ubuntu), if it is still around.
https://pinguyos.com/
https://www.distrowatch.com/pinguy
I tried it out myself a little, but wanted more control over my own system.
However, when I had some friends who wanted to give Linux a try, but weren't
techies or geeks at all, and didn't seem likely to make the jump from Windoze
to something like Debian, Slackware, etc., I set them up with PINGuy, and it
seemed to work pretty well for them.
If you are just looking to build a computer for somebody else out of an old
box and parts, etc. (which I'm still doing myself), then it requires minimal
user input; the firewall is already set up, and I imagine it can handle
dial-up, too.
ALSO: I sometimes have to use public computers in an area shared by lots of
people who are rather similar to your description of this person. The network
admin installed Lubuntu (i.e., with LXDE desktop) on all the public computers
at this place, and everybody seems to have adjusted pretty quickly. You could
also install Debian with LXDE. But then I imagine that you might fall into
that trap of having to hold his hand for every little thing, and I myself
have a deep appreciation for anybody who wants to avoid people who will not
only waste my time, but who will somehow claim more and more of it. Life is
short.
Either way, I think, you get caught in a dilemma. Do you choose the initial
ease of installation, and simple point-and-click interfaces, etc.; or do you
choose stability, and trust that maybe you won't have to return too often.
Good luck,
Bill
Felix Miata wrote:
Plain Old Telephone Service (land line). For a long time he had wifi, but
it recently disappeared.
Maybe the better question would be does anyone
here have any users using
POTS and WINE, and if so, on which distro? I haven't haven't suffered
POTS or known more than one who has in close to 20 years. The one who
has is the owner of the target. He has zero competence in computer setup
or maintenance, historically struggling to do much more with internet
than collect Windows malware. His email is Juno.
Absent a suggestion backed by recent experience with POTS and WINE, I'll
be choosing between Mageia, openSUSE and Debian.
Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz dual core with 2GB RAM
and GM965 14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance
installation (only IceWM for X) on it now, which will stay.
Q’s first:
- POTS as he connects to the Internet by telephone dial up? - Juno as in Juno WebMail or through a mail
client?
I doubt he knows what a mail client is, though possibly in the past he
might have used a proprietary Juno or Netzero or other cheap proprietary
ISP client.
Otherwise:
- User has No computer skills.
He has a tablet to use when he can get a free wifi connection, which is
rare where he lives. Let's say minimal any kind of skills. He's physically
and mentally challenged to a degree I don't have a handle on, living on
disability his whole life. He accidentally had his head bashed (before he
reached his teens is as much as he remembers).
- Needs Wine. (for what?)
Dunno. Maybe he doesn't. Sometimes he throws out Windows app names I've
never heard of. His poor memory keeps me challenged.
- Computer’s technology is 10+ years old.
12 or so, first generation of Intel GPUs (GMA X3100) supported by Xorg's
modesetting DDX.
# # #
Based upon just the ‘zero competence in computer’ try him on a MX Linux
Live USB in persistent mode [1]? That should be about the easiest way
for you to test if the hardware can handle it and once that’s figured
out, then you can add TDE.
I don't do USB except for occasional rescues. My interest isn't so much in
what the hardware can support as a desktop he and I and POTS can work with,
with an emphasis on minimal effort from me when he needs help. Without
broadband, his phone is tied up with internet connection at the times he
needs to call for help. Or so I thought. I just found out he has a cell
phone too. Must be an Obama phone.
I already have minimal openSUSE 15.1 and TDE on Debian Buster installations
on two of five / partitions I allocated for root filesystems. That leaves
two possible distros/desktops to try besides IceWM and TDE (there will be
two openSUSE 15.1: the existing, which will be for me only for fixing
breakage on the other four, and one for him).
[1]
Update the release references to 18.x on
https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/create-a-live-usb-w-persist-from-a-window
s-desktop/ and
https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/MX_Linux_Trinity_Repository_Installation_
Instructions
This might also help,
http://inet-design.com/blogs/michael/how-create-bootable-usb-stick-iso-im
age.html
Or just search, https://mxlinux.org/?s=make+live+usb+persistence
AFAICT, MX is XFCE-focused. I don't like XFCE (or Gnome, the reason why I
jumped on KDE1 when I discovered it), or that it's built on a gtk3
foundation, which may be why.
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757142 (wontfix)
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1269274 (wontfix)
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1420743 (wontfix)
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830 (FIXED)
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1269145 (fixed)
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=781807 (wontfix)
6:19 p.m.
On Wednesday 08 May 2019 02:14:07 am William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 07 May 2019 19:16:59 Felix Miata wrote:
> Michael composed on 2019-05-07 11:48 (UTC-0500):
> > Felix Miata wrote:
> I don't do USB except for occasional rescues. My interest isn't so much
> in what the hardware can support as a desktop he and I and POTS can work
> with, with an emphasis on minimal effort from me when he needs help.
> AFAICT, MX is XFCE-focused. I don't like XFCE
(or Gnome, the reason why I
> jumped on KDE1 when I discovered it), or that it's built on a gtk3
> foundation, which may be why.
Hi Felix,
I have to agree with Bill, kudos to you for helping this person out! I’ve
dealt with people who’ve had head injuries and you’re never sure where they
are capable. Worse some of them never seem to know if they’ve actually told
you a), b), or c) so tell you them multiple time. Or they think they told
you all three and have really only told you b). Highly frustrating from both
sides. :(
On MX, yes I think it does default install XFCE, but you don’t have to use it,
nor do you need anything Gnome. I don’t, I use TDE with it. I brought it up
as MX does have a lot of MX built tools that would make your install/setup
life easier.
Since you’re going with TDE as the interface (guessing), per Bill’s
installation vs. stability, I’d say MX is in the middle for installation. MX
is a no-systemd Debian stable so I believe people would score that high on
stability?
The USB was to just try it, it does install to the hard drive.
I’ll guess you’ve already thought of trying an Ubuntu LTS? I’d surmise that
the 16.04 LTS would be basically feature locked by now and would give you
until 2024 until you’d need to look at it again.
Hope that helps,
Michael
7:44 p.m.
On Wednesday 08 May 2019 11:19:17 Michael wrote:
On Wednesday 08 May 2019 02:14:07 am William Morder
via trinity-users wrote:
I forgot to mention AntiX, which is in that MX family, also no-systemd, etc. I
did like a lot about that system, and if I were using just a laptop, or
similar setup, I might choose it again; however, it couldn't manage to
recognize my internal hard drives (aside from sda1) on the initial
installation, so I went back to Devuan. (I like to give all my hard drives
special mount points, so that my reference points remain the same, even if
they get unmounted and remounted.) While I could do this manually, after
installation, it would be a real bother.
AntiX also works well with TDE.
On Tuesday 07 May 2019 19:16:59 Felix Miata
wrote:
> Michael composed on 2019-05-07 11:48 (UTC-0500):
> > Felix Miata wrote:
>
> I don't do USB except for occasional rescues. My interest isn't so much
> in what the hardware can support as a desktop he and I and POTS can
> work with, with an emphasis on minimal effort from me when he needs
> help.
>
> AFAICT, MX is XFCE-focused. I don't like XFCE (or Gnome, the reason why
> I jumped on KDE1 when I discovered it), or that it's built on a gtk3
> foundation, which may be why.
Hi Felix,
I have to agree with Bill, kudos to you for helping this person out! I’ve
dealt with people who’ve had head injuries and you’re never sure where they
are capable. Worse some of them never seem to know if they’ve actually
told you a), b), or c) so tell you them multiple time. Or they think they
told you all three and have really only told you b). Highly frustrating
from both sides. :(
On MX, yes I think it does default install XFCE, but you don’t have to use
it, nor do you need anything Gnome. I don’t, I use TDE with it. I brought
it up as MX does have a lot of MX built tools that would make your
install/setup life easier.
Since you’re going with TDE as the interface (guessing), per Bill’s
installation vs. stability, I’d say MX is in the middle for installation.
MX is a no-systemd Debian stable so I believe people would score that high
on stability?
The USB was to just try it, it does install to the hard drive.
I’ll guess you’ve already thought of trying an Ubuntu LTS? I’d surmise
that the 16.04 LTS would be basically feature locked by now and would give
you until 2024 until you’d need to look at it again.
Hope that helps,
Michael
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15 May
15 May
6:01 a.m.
Michael composed on 2019-05-08 13:19 (UTC-0500):
William Morder wrote:
> Felix Miata wrote:
>> AFAICT, MX is XFCE-focused. I don't like
XFCE (or Gnome, the reason why I
>> jumped on KDE1 when I discovered it), or that it's built on a gtk3
>> foundation, which may be why.
...
On MX, yes I think it does default install XFCE, but
you don’t have to use it,
nor do you need anything Gnome. I don’t, I use TDE with it. I brought it up
as MX does have a lot of MX built tools that would make your install/setup
life easier.
MX 18.2 on distrowatch shows it with GTK 3.22.11. This problem was in my OP as
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757142 and the links following it.
That's hardly the only problem I have with GTK, so anything built with it as a
foundation I'm ruling out unless it has something compelling that nothing else
has. Are these custom MX tools built with something else, QT or assembler maybe?
Since you’re going with TDE as the interface
(guessing), per Bill’s
installation vs. stability, I’d say MX is in the middle for installation. MX
is a no-systemd Debian stable so I believe people would score that high on
stability?
Is MX in the same place philosophically as AntiX was WRT /usr/local/ 3 years ago?
If it is, it's out of consideration, as explained on:
<https://mxlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=118&t=39978&sid=1ccc8a12cf8a26783b61084247a0625b>
I don't have a problem with systemd any more. I'm well enough used to it. Since
it's part of the majors that I'm familiar with, not having it for me is not a
plus. It's actually a negative if system is Debian-based. I never got acclimated
to Debian's lack of a GUI-free multi-user runlevel, or lack of chkconfig for
managing init.
I’ll guess you’ve already thought of trying an Ubuntu
LTS? I’d surmise that
the 16.04 LTS would be basically feature locked by now and would give you
until 2024 until you’d need to look at it again.
If I was to consider Ubuntu, it would be the most recent LTS.
Maybe I just need to stick with TDE on openSUSE or Debian.
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
17 May
17 May
4:08 p.m.
On 05/06/2019 08:51 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz dual
core with 2GB RAM and GM965
14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only IceWM for X)
on it now, which will stay.
One problem that I didn't see anyone mention, that you may already be aware
of: The modem in that Vaio is almost certainly a winmodem. Most of those
can't be made to work with Linux, and for those that can, it's more trouble
than it's worth. You'll need to use an external or PCMCIA card modem, but
make sure it's a hardware modem, not a winmodem.
Bottom line, you'll save yourself a lot of headaches by leaving him on Windoze.
24 May
24 May
8:17 p.m.
Dan Youngquist composed on 2019-05-17 09:08 (UTC-0700):
Felix Miata wrote:
> Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz
dual core with 2GB RAM and GM965
> 14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only IceWM for
X)
> on it now, which will stay.
One problem that I didn't see anyone mention, that
you may already be aware
of: The modem in that Vaio is almost certainly a winmodem. Most of those> can't
be made to work with Linux,
Actually it is one that ostensibly is supported, technically a high definition
audio device.
and for those that can, it's more trouble
than it's worth.
I wholeheartedly agree. I tried by starting with basics, determining whether the
modem could work at all. My support mailing list discuss-subscribe(a)linmodems.org
sub attempt was returned to sender. ScanModem found a 14f1:2c06 High Definition
Audio device that should be supported as a modem, but underlying support for
modems in distros seems to have died through lack maintenance required for newer
foundational software versions, e.g. glibc, gcc, etc. The driver has to be built,
and automatic building by installing the .deb (Debian 10) or .rpm (openSUSE 15.1)
fails with "C compiler cannot create executables" on the cli and in config.log.
In
Debian, every attempt to use apt or aptitude for anything since trying to install
the .deb results in "E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)"
on
account of alsa-driver-linuxant producing exit status 77 in post processing. e.g.:
apt install wvdial
You'll need to use an external or PCMCIA card
modem, but
make sure it's a hardware modem, not a winmodem.
He would have to come up with that on his own. He could probably come up with $10
or so at most. Whether he could find one is another matter requiring a lot of luck.
Bottom line, you'll save yourself a lot of
headaches by leaving him on Windoze.
The Vaio's only license is for Vista, long since wiped from his HD.
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
9:38 p.m.
On Fri, 24 May 2019 16:17:02 -0400
Felix Miata <mrmazda(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
Dan Youngquist composed on 2019-05-17 09:08
(UTC-0700):
Bumbling around on the linuxant homepage for a while identifies them as the
weak link in all this--they stopped developing the driver about ten years ago,
and never upstreamed it. They say the driver you need "works under 2.6.16 or
newer kernels", which probably means you need a kernel version V where
2.6.16 <= V < 3.0. I don't know if any current distro carries a kernel that
old.
At this point, having your guy hit garage sales and junk shops to check for old
PCMCIA or even external modems looks like a better bet.
E. Liddell
Felix Miata wrote:
> Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with
2.2GHz dual core with 2GB RAM and GM965
> 14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only IceWM for
X)
> on it now, which will stay.
One problem that I didn't see anyone mention,
that you may already be aware
of: The modem in that Vaio is almost certainly a winmodem. Most of those> can't
be made to work with Linux,
Actually it is one that ostensibly is supported, technically a high definition
audio device.
and for those that can, it's more trouble
than it's worth.
I wholeheartedly agree. I tried by starting with basics, determining whether the
modem could work at all. My support mailing list discuss-subscribe(a)linmodems.org
sub attempt was returned to sender. ScanModem found a 14f1:2c06 High Definition
Audio device that should be supported as a modem, but underlying support for
modems in distros seems to have died through lack maintenance required for newer
foundational software versions, e.g. glibc, gcc, etc. The driver has to be built,
and automatic building by installing the .deb (Debian 10) or .rpm (openSUSE 15.1)
fails with "C compiler cannot create executables" on the cli and in config.log.
In
Debian, every attempt to use apt or aptitude for anything since trying to install
the .deb results in "E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)"
on
account of alsa-driver-linuxant producing exit status 77 in post processing. e.g.:
apt install wvdial
10:33 p.m.
On Friday 24 May 2019 04:38:45 pm E. Liddell wrote:
At this point, having your guy hit garage sales and junk shops to check for
old PCMCIA or even external modems looks like a better bet.
Is he close enough to some open/public wifi that a tin can wireless booster
(cantenna) is an option? They're not that hard to build, and cheap, and way
back in the day some guy in Australia had a setup that pushed a signal about
20 klicks to his offshore island home by using one on each end. I’ll guess
you could get a couple klicks fairly easy, granted you still need half way
decent line of sight…
Best,
Michael
1798
days inactive
1815
days old
10 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Dan Youngquist -
E. Liddell -
Felix Miata -
Michael -
William Morder via trinity-users