12 Feb
2012
12 Feb
'12
1:34 p.m.
I would move to an Indian ashram and forsake computing all together,
although they probably also have a few boxes but certainly not with enough
processing power to run KDE4.
Seriously, i would switch to lxde after i had sucked the life out of
trinity. I agree that moores law dictates that things will move forward,
and nothing is as permanent as change ... but i'm not not throwing out my
perfectly good tennis shoes just because nike released some shit hot plasma
soul technology in the latest shoe.
Community based projects keep the end user in mind, and that is what we
need. This is why my preference lies with projects such as Trinity. KDE3
was an abandoned child, adopted by Trinity and slowly growing to be a
respectable, viable alternative to the bloated, overweight and overly
complicated (read non intuitive) standards adopted by KDE4 and other DM's
hell bent on moving forward while throwing caution (and compatability
throughout linux) to the wind.
Jay
On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Timothy Pearson <
kb9vqf(a)pearsoncomputing.net> wrote:
the
A hypothetical poll for users
here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use
instead? You would
be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what
item are missing
or suboptimal in the other environment.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some
concrete examples to
fall back on to counter detractors.
Thanks!
I have spent considerable time thinking about that question ever since official announcement that KDE3 no longer would
be actively supported by
the KDE developers.
I would use the last available release of Trinity or KDE 3.5.10 --- for
as
long as I could. If Trinity disappeared today I
could squeeze a couple of
more years out of either before running into insurmountable compiling
issues.
I never have been a GTK fan. The standard file picker dialog is clunky.
Much of the GTK design seems to revolve around the NIH (Not Invented
Here)
syndrome. Every year I try Xfce, LXDE, Fluxbox,
IceWM, etc. and
immediately yearn for KDE3. I do not like any of the file managers
offered
in the GTK world, which is where my yearning
begins. Konqueror 3.5 is one
of the all-time great file managers.
Initially I decided I'd bide my time until KDE4 became fully usable. As I
mentioned some days ago, I did not blame the initial KDE 4.0 reaction as
the fault of the developers but the distro maintainers. Until the day
when
I determined KDE4 had matured for my usage ---
and I would determine that
day, not self-appointed nannies --- I decided to learn to rebuild 3.5.10
to fill the void.
Somewhere along the way Trinity appeared and I saw hope.
As a free/libre software advocate I want KDE4 to succeed. I want GNOME
and
'buntu to succeed. That does not mean those
environments satisfy my needs
for desktop computer usage.
I gave 4.2.4 a serious shot when I built my home theater PC. A horrible
experience. I installed 3.5.10 and used the various kiosk features to
build a great little appliance.
A year ago I gave KDE 4.5.5 a serious opportunity. The more I used KDE4
the more exhausted I became. A desktop should never get in a user's way.
As a desktop I could acclimate to KDE4 without fanfare. My challenge is
ever since the KDE4 developers announced that Akonadi would be deeply
entrenched into the PIM apps, I am faced with running the KDE4 PIM apps
with that overhead or face finding GTK apps to replace what I use. Not to
mention that KMail has been broken through 7 point releases. I'm waiting
for glowing reviews about KMail from 4.8 users.
I use KMail, Akregator, and KAlarm. I don't need a database caching that
data all day. I'm not an information or data junkie.
I don't care what spin doctors say about managing personal information. A
significant number of users who do not need enterprise support get along
fine with each PIM app handling its own data. I understand why the KDE4
developers chose their path. The PIM data management ties into their idea
of semantic desktops and sharing data among users and apps. I do not have
that kind of information flow in my life that requires the backend
overhead KDE4 now requires, but I can't disable the overhead.
I don't like Dolphin.
I don't like the look and feel of KDE4. Perhaps Qt4 is the actual
culprit,
I don't know.
Amarok 2 is awful compared to the simplicity of Amarok 1.4. Yeah, I know,
there is Clementine, but I like 1.4.
Although there is a method to the new way of doing things in KDE4,
configuring a KDE4 desktop takes more effort. Using apps requires more
mouse clicks or keyboard strokes.
The more that KDE4 evolves the more that various external apps will be
built with dependencies on Akonadi, Nepomuk, and Strigi. There is no Plan
B with KDE4.
I'm sure those who use KDE4 love what they have. I want them to be happy
with their choice. That is how free/libre software should be. Likewise,
for me, I like the way KDE3/Trinity works and not the way KDE4 works. I
should be able to enjoy my choice and be left alone and not be hen-pecked
by self-appointed nannies.
I have the hardware to run the overhead of KDE4 PIM apps. If today my
only
choice was a GTK desktop or KDE4 I would choose
KDE4. To me KDE4 is more
palatable than anything in GTK. I don't like certain design decisions
made
with KDE4 but I would learn to live with the
bloated design. I would
rebuild packages if that avenue allowed me to reduce some cruft.
Today those two environments are not the sole options. Therefore I would
keep my eye on Razor-Qt, maybe even join their effort. I don't think
think
they offer PIM apps, but perhaps someday somebody
will strip the Akonadi
crap from KDE4 PIM apps and port to Razor-Qt.
To my perspective, that Razor-Qt exists is an indicator that users are
unhappy with the direction of KDE4.
Fortunately I need not decide today. For now I continue rebuilding KDE
3.5.10 and Trinity. I'll squeeze as many years as possible from those
sources. As I am teaching myself C++, possibly one day I might even learn
enough to keep Trinity as my desktop for a long time.
I'd be dismayed if the day came soon that Trinity disappeared. GNOME and
KDE4 do not help me feel warm and fuzzy. I'm too deep in the 'nix way of
using computers. Therefore Windows is not a palatable option. Outside of
work contracts I don't use Windows. I detest the philosophy of the Apple
people and their walled gardens. The philosophy of free/libre software
fits me wonderfully. That does not mean the current trend in free/libre
desktops fits me wonderfully. Trinity is my hope for the future.
The KDE4 developers do what they want. The GNOME developers do what they
want. The 'buntu people do what they want. And to a certain degree,
rightfully so. And rightfully so I wish others would leave us alone to do
what we want. We don't bother anybody. Why do they believe they have
standing to bother and attack us?
Mostly I don't like the attitude of KDE4 and GNOME developers. At one
time
the BSD developers were blatant about who they
wrote the software for ---
themselves. There was no pretense. I could endure the GNOME and KDE4
developers (but not their software) if they would be as honest and admit
they develop the software for themselves and not others.
I prefer the attitude and philosophy of those participating in Trinity.
In
the discussions held here in this list there is a
genuine concern for
users. Even I have solicited ideas and then retracted because of the
needs
of the wider user base.
I invest a lot of my time to make Trinity succeed. I need to because the
alternatives leave me sour. I wish we had one or two additional crack C++
coders on board to expedite development and bug fixing. I wish I could
crank C++ code a tenth as good as you.
I don't own any crystal balls and can't predict the future of Trinity.
For
my style of usage, I hope Trinity hangs around
for several more years. If
not then I'll hang on as long as possible and hope Razor-Qt becomes
popular with traditional apps and no KDE4 overhead. Yet as long as
Trinity
is active I'll do my part to help.
With that all said, I ask and hope that everybody involved here ignores
the KDE4 people every time they interrupt our discussions. Just ignore
them. No response at all no matter how tempting. Let them say and think
what they want while we mind our own business and devote our energies to
Trinity. :)
Darrell
Very well said Darrell. And TDE is not going anywhere soon if I have
anything to say about it. :-)
Responses like yours are good material for the KDE4 devs to digest as
well. If they care about the users then they can use your insight to
actually do something about KDE's flaws. If not, their desired direction
will be clearer and we can safely ignore a good chunk of the criticism (as
you said above).
And yes, Qt4 is the culprit to a large extent when you said "I don't like
the look and feel of KDE4". What you are seeing is the end result of a
widget pool and default styles that were designed for cell phones (after
all, they are what Nokia makes!). KDE4 could theoretically override these
defaults, but there is some resistance to creating a new widget set that
is more appropriate for a desktop environment as far as I can tell from
reading various mailing lists. Part of that is that creating widget sets
is a lot of work, and I guess another part is that smaller widgets will
only serve to accentuate the loss of point-and-click functionality from
items such as toolbars, treeviews, and toolboxes.
Thank you all for your responses; I think the original blog post that
started this whole discussion is now relatively well handled.
Tim
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