https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2025/06/20/new_version_of_xorg_x11/ https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver https://www.freelists.org/
So much for Wayland being the only way forward!!! :D
On 2025-06-22 03:23 PM, Felix Miata via tde-devels wrote:
https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2025/06/20/new_version_of_xorg_x11/ https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver https://www.freelists.org/
So much for Wayland being the only way forward!!! :D
I have been testing it since news of the fork came out and it has worked flawlessly under TDE. Considering how much effort it would be to develop TDE Wayland support (stable and reliable), this is much appreciated. It would be very cool to see TDE implement and support some of the new features XLibre is working on too like the recent XNamespaces.
On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 16:23:44 -0400 Felix Miata via tde-devels devels@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2025/06/20/new_version_of_xorg_x11/ https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver https://www.freelists.org/
So much for Wayland being the only way forward!!! :D
https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts suggests that unfortunately the real reason the main developer for X11Libre broke away from the main X project is that he isn't a very good coder. There are also some indications of unhinged ideological leanings.
Maybe something worthwhile will come of this anyway, but I'm not holding my breath.
E. Liddell
On 2025-06-23 04:23 PM, E. Liddell via tde-devels wrote:
https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts suggests that unfortunately the real reason the main developer for X11Libre broke away from the main X project is that he isn't a very good coder.
It had nothing to do with him being a bad coder. It had been well known for awhile that the X.org Foundation was holding back development from the X11 project because they have their own conflict of interest in regards to Wayland (and wanted to kill X11). Enrico was the only one who was trying to contribute anything, and he ended up forming his fork (before they reverted anything and banned him) because his merge requests would get ignored. It should also be worth noting that the article you linked is written by Michael Larabel, who is very clearly Wayland-biased and has admitted it.
The changes Enrico made that ended up getting reverted were major code cleanups and security improvements, and they were pushed in master and asked for testing. Was he perfect? No, but it is the master branch and nobody would help him test so he just kept moving on. Despite the supposed "bad code", XLibre works almost flawlessly and it is a community project, not just the guy who got kicked out of FDO. Every issue users have faced have had quick bug fixes and there are major improvements in both functionality and security without hurting the users or developers under X.
There are also some indications of unhinged ideological leanings.
I do not understand how some guys opinions are in any way shape or form relevant unless they are detrimental to his work on software. All that should matter is making good working software. Regardless, Enrico is one guy and there are many people contributing to XLibre. If he ends up in the looney bin by chance, there are many others who will just continue the XLibre project. The important work of starting a fork away from those who think they own it and are trying to kill it has already been finished.
Anno domini 2025 Mon, 23 Jun 20:21:52 -0500 Wirlaburla via tde-devels scripsit:
On 2025-06-23 04:23 PM, E. Liddell via tde-devels wrote:
https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts suggests that unfortunately the real reason the main developer for X11Libre broke away from the main X project is that he isn't a very good coder.
It had nothing to do with him being a bad coder. It had been well known for awhile that the X.org Foundation was holding back development from the X11 project because they have their own conflict of interest in regards to Wayland (and wanted to kill X11). Enrico was the only one who was trying to contribute anything, and he ended up forming his fork (before they reverted anything and banned him) because his merge requests would get ignored. It should also be worth noting that the article you linked is written by Michael Larabel, who is very clearly Wayland-biased and has admitted it.
The changes Enrico made that ended up getting reverted were major code cleanups and security improvements, and they were pushed in master and asked for testing. Was he perfect? No, but it is the master branch and nobody would help him test so he just kept moving on. Despite the supposed "bad code", XLibre works almost flawlessly and it is a community project, not just the guy who got kicked out of FDO. Every issue users have faced have had quick bug fixes and there are major improvements in both functionality and security without hurting the users or developers under X.
IMO Devuan is going to include Xlibre sooner or later - at least, when Debian is ging the dark road again. Just as OpenBSD did withtheir fork of Xorg.
Nik
There are also some indications of unhinged ideological leanings.
I do not understand how some guys opinions are in any way shape or form relevant unless they are detrimental to his work on software. All that should matter is making good working software. Regardless, Enrico is one guy and there are many people contributing to XLibre. If he ends up in the looney bin by chance, there are many others who will just continue the XLibre project. The important work of starting a fork away from those who think they own it and are trying to kill it has already been finished.
On 6/23/25 8:21 PM, Wirlaburla via tde-devels wrote:
On 2025-06-23 04:23 PM, E. Liddell via tde-devels wrote:
https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts suggests that unfortunately the real reason the main developer for X11Libre broke away from the main X project is that he isn't a very good coder.
It had nothing to do with him being a bad coder. It had been well known for awhile that the X.org Foundation was holding back development from the X11 project because they have their own conflict of interest in regards to Wayland (and wanted to kill X11). Enrico was the only one who was trying to contribute anything, and he ended up forming his fork (before they reverted anything and banned him) because his merge requests would get ignored. It should also be worth noting that the article you linked is written by Michael Larabel, who is very clearly Wayland-biased and has admitted it.
The changes Enrico made that ended up getting reverted were major code cleanups and security improvements, and they were pushed in master and asked for testing. Was he perfect? No, but it is the master branch and nobody would help him test so he just kept moving on. Despite the supposed "bad code", XLibre works almost flawlessly and it is a community project, not just the guy who got kicked out of FDO. Every issue users have faced have had quick bug fixes and there are major improvements in both functionality and security without hurting the users or developers under X.
Proof positive the politics and code don't mix. Still, there does appear to be fire where there is smoke. The Devuan reversions and Torvalds apt rejection of the "bat sh.. crazy" Anti-Vaccine comments from the Xlibre maintainer is cause for concern.
That said, if he can maintain focus on the code and leave the distractions alone, I'm very happy to see progress on improving X11 and providing a path forward. The distractions are just that, but they take time, toil and energy away from Xlibre development for naught.
I fully support continued development of X11 no matter what form it takes. I've never liked the idea of one "compositor" providing the graphics on anything I use. A crash in the Wayland compositor takes all apps down, not just one, and anything not saved is lost -- in all GUI applications, not just one.
David C Rankin via tde-devels wrote:
rejection of the "bat sh.. crazy" Anti-Vaccine comments from the Xlibre maintainer is cause for concern.
Keep your opinion for yourself. I do not advocate anti-vaccine but everybody should be free to decide. Thank you!
That said, if he can maintain focus on the code and leave the distractions alone, I'm very happy to see progress on improving X11 and providing a path forward. The distractions are just that, but they take time, toil and energy away from Xlibre development for naught.
I fully support continued development of X11 no matter what form it takes.
Division is worst enemy of FOSS and in the past 15+ years it got even worse. But time ago I read why Wayland was started and what challenges it tried to mitigate. X11 is also not perfect. Soooo I do not know what is better. It looks like so many new projects. Someone with ego bigger than Saturn, almost as big as the sun are deciding that they can write a code that is much better than what is being developed for 40years. And usually you can not argue with those guys. Very pity.
deloptes composed on 2025-07-05 20:36 (UTC+0200):
David C Rankin wrote:
I fully support continued development of X11 no matter what form it takes.
Division is worst enemy of FOSS and in the past 15+ years it got even worse. But time ago I read why Wayland was started and what challenges it tried to mitigate. X11 is also not perfect. Soooo I do not know what is better.
By design, and as announced, Wayland will never be able to provide all functionality of that which it purports to be replacing. Meanwhile, check out the disaster Plasma 6 has become trying to use multiple displays, whether using Wayland or X11. It dumps every session restored app on the primary display and virtual desktop #1, wholly disregarding original position within display, among other ineptitudes.
IMO, without some fork of X11, whether Xlibre or some other, I expect non-Wayland users will increasingly suffer. X11 bugs not reproducible in Wayland already get no attention.
Thank the Lord, Tim who forked it, Slavek, Michelle and the rest who keep TDE keeping on!!!
Felix Miata via tde-devels wrote:
By design, and as announced, Wayland will never be able to provide all functionality of that which it purports to be replacing. Meanwhile, check out the disaster Plasma 6 has become trying to use multiple displays, whether using Wayland or X11. It dumps every session restored app on the primary display and virtual desktop #1, wholly disregarding original position within display, among other ineptitudes.
Well this is KDE philosophy since 2008. I am not surprised at all.
IMO, without some fork of X11, whether Xlibre or some other, I expect non-Wayland users will increasingly suffer. X11 bugs not reproducible in Wayland already get no attention.
This will be hard to maintain. It is indeed old cryptic code, no one understands anymore. I think this is why they started new project and they are reinventing the wheel. I see increasing level of imbecility around me, but what do I know. The guys are good developers and enthusiasts and probably most of them use Windows, Apple or in worse case TDE :-D :-D.
Thank the Lord, Tim who forked it, Slavek, Michelle and the rest who keep TDE keeping on!!!
AMEN!
On Sat, 5 Jul 2025 16:57:07 -0400 Felix Miata via tde-devels devels@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
IMO, without some fork of X11, whether Xlibre or some other, I expect non-Wayland users will increasingly suffer. X11 bugs not reproducible in Wayland already get no attention.
I suspect this is a better lifeline: https://www.theregister.com/2025/07/03/wayback_wayland_display_server/
Short version: it's a compatibility layer running as a Wayland display server that allows desktop environments without Wayland support to run correctly under XWayland. No non-code baggage, and it already has a distro of middling significance (Alpine) backing it. I also get the impression that the codebase is relatively small, making it a lot less work to maintain.
E. Liddell
E. Liddell composed on 2025-07-05 19:29 (UTC-0400):
On Sat, 5 Jul 2025 16:57:07 -0400 Felix Miata via tde-devels wrote:
IMO, without some fork of X11, whether Xlibre or some other, I expect non-Wayland users will increasingly suffer. X11 bugs not reproducible in Wayland already get no attention.
I suspect this is a better lifeline: https://www.theregister.com/2025/07/03/wayback_wayland_display_server/
Short version: it's a compatibility layer running as a Wayland display server that allows desktop environments without Wayland support to run correctly under XWayland.
Running in Wayland is one thing, not equivalent to doing everything in Wayland one was able to do before Wayland.
On 7/5/25 1:36 PM, deloptes via tde-devels wrote:
rejection of the "bat sh.. crazy" Anti-Vaccine comments from the Xlibre maintainer is cause for concern.
Keep your opinion for yourself. I do not advocate anti-vaccine but everybody should be free to decide. Thank you!
That wasn't my opinion, that was to reason the maintainer was rebuked by Torvalds. https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/6/10/957
Just the facts mam. Not opinion.
David C Rankin via tde-devels wrote:
That wasn't my opinion, that was to reason the maintainer was rebuked by Torvalds. https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/6/10/957
Just the facts mam. Not opinion.
The only fact is that you cite someones else opinion. Torvalds is not authority in medicine, so again, please, keep your opinion for yourself. I bet you are also not authority in medicine as I am not as well, so no point to argue here.
We try to keep the list free of anything not TDE related.
Thank you in advance!
Anno domini 2025 Wed, 9 Jul 03:13:31 -0500 David C Rankin via tde-devels scripsit:
On 7/5/25 1:36 PM, deloptes via tde-devels wrote:
rejection of the "bat sh.. crazy" Anti-Vaccine comments from the Xlibre maintainer is cause for concern.
Keep your opinion for yourself. I do not advocate anti-vaccine but everybody should be free to decide. Thank you!
That wasn't my opinion, that was to reason the maintainer was rebuked by Torvalds. https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/6/10/957
Just the facts mam. Not opinion.
well, it was linus opinon (not based on facts) .. anyway I'm quite happy Xlibre exists, as I'm about the existance of OpenBSDs X11 fork.
Nik
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David C Rankin -
deloptes -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
E. Liddell -
Felix Miata -
Wirlaburla