TDM according to ps -A is "running" when init completes even though multi-user is default target, and regardless whether 3 or 5 or neither is included on cmdline. Killall tdm then startx does produce a TDE session, but there's no .xsession-errors.
There doesn't seem to be any kind of clues I can decipher in any logs:
http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/Xorg/tdm.log-fi965-stretch http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/Xorg/xorg.0.log-fi965-stretch ii tdm-trinity 4:14.0.5~pre14-0debian9.0.0+2~a amd64 # inxi -c0 -v1 System: Host: fi965 Kernel: 4.9.0-2-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit) Desktop: N/A Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 9 (stretch) CPU: Dual core Intel Core2 6700 (-MCP-) speed: 2668 MHz (max) Graphics: Card: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD/ATI] Cedar [Radeon HD 5000/6000/7350/8350 Series] Display Server: X.org 1.19.2 drivers: modesetting (unloaded: fbdev,vesa) tty size: 111x36 Advanced Data: N/A for root # systemctl status tdm â tdm.service - Trinity Display Manager Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/tdm.service; static; vendor preset: enabled) Active: inactive (dead) Docs: man:tdm-trinity(1)
Is ignoring the default target normal or expected on Debian running systemd? Searching BZ for comment including systemd and target produced no hits except for an Ubuntu crasher. Is there some way to get TDM to not start automatically on Stretch boot?
My bias is anti systemd, just so you know.-- scant documentation and there has never been a security review of its package.
I had a lot of weird issues running Jessie 8.5 and Trinity--it became a very unstable system. There was no proof (nor was there enough systemd documentation that would let you troubleshoot the issues) but a few clues led me to believe that systemd was involved somehow, in some of my issues.
I switched to Devuan (Debian Jessie without systemd) a couple of months ago, and a lot of the problems went away... Devuan just released their Release Canidate 1.0 in the last week or so... so I decided to do a bare metal install of Devuan and Trinity..
There were a few problems with installing the pair, but nothing serious. First problem was that the Deuvan Live Install didn't like my UEFI bios and after I attempted to install grub2's UEFI version using the Live distro. I then had to manually remove the version of grub2 that it installed, using apt from the console and a grub2 USB rescue stick.
The second issue was that I used a live USB stick to install Devuan and it put that info in /etc/sources.list as a CD install and when Trinity wanted to install stuff from the ppa it demanded the "distro CD" be mounted and would not pay any attention to my USB stick. I edited sources.list using nano and commented out the reference to the CD listing and then everything worked.
So if you can't get your problem solved and or you start having more problems, you might consider installing Devuan. It can upgrade Debian Jessie in place and that feature worked fine the first time I installed Devuan. It took about 15 minutes to do the upgrade and kept all of my configurations. I made a clone of my system (Clonezilla) before I upgraded and I suggest you do too...
Keith
On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 2:41 AM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
TDM according to ps -A is "running" when init completes even though multi-user is default target, and regardless whether 3 or 5 or neither is included on cmdline. Killall tdm then startx does produce a TDE session, but there's no .xsession-errors.
There doesn't seem to be any kind of clues I can decipher in any logs:
http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/Xorg/tdm.log-fi965-stretch http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Linux/Xorg/xorg.0.log-fi965-stretch ii tdm-trinity 4:14.0.5~pre14-0debian9.0.0+2~a amd64 # inxi -c0 -v1 System: Host: fi965 Kernel: 4.9.0-2-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit) Desktop: N/A Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 9 (stretch) CPU: Dual core Intel Core2 6700 (-MCP-) speed: 2668 MHz (max) Graphics: Card: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD/ATI] Cedar [Radeon HD 5000/6000/7350/8350 Series] Display Server: X.org 1.19.2 drivers: modesetting (unloaded: fbdev,vesa) tty size: 111x36 Advanced Data: N/A for root # systemctl status tdm â tdm.service - Trinity Display Manager Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/tdm.service; static; vendor preset: enabled) Active: inactive (dead) Docs: man:tdm-trinity(1)
Is ignoring the default target normal or expected on Debian running systemd? Searching BZ for comment including systemd and target produced no hits except for an Ubuntu crasher. Is there some way to get TDM to not start automatically on Stretch boot? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-devel-unsubscribe@ lists.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-devel-help@lists. pearsoncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-devel. pearsoncomputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity. pearsoncomputing.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting
Keith Daniels wrote:
My bias is anti systemd, just so you know.-- scant documentation and there has never been a security review of its package.
Meanwhile the situation has improved. There are many things improved including documentation. What I can recommend is the "systemd cheat sheet" which can be found in different flavors around.
Just few examples.
https://wiki.debian.org/systemd/CheatSheet https://gist.github.com/mbodo/8f87c96ce11e91f80fbf6175412a2206
My personal experience is ... after looking into it I used systemd free debian for some time until I was ready to move my system to systemd. It took me few hours ... mainly fixing some custom networking logic (scripts that would execute on certain conditions) and migrating few scripts.
Since than I can not complain. I moved all systems from init to systemd - no issue.
I can just conclude that the main problem is the unwillingness to grow. Of course I can understand this - why fixing something again after some 10-15y when it was working flawlessly ... but guys this is called evolution - for good or for bad. Using the default system brings the advantage that it is easily maintainable - and working on each and every package to work around systemd is IMO less efficient.
As for the Felix's problem I think it is related to default manager. Did you try to remove or fix the service?
# ls -al /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 31 Jan 6 02:43 /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service -> /lib/systemd/system/tdm.service
# cat /lib/systemd/system/tdm.service [Unit] Description=Trinity Display Manager Documentation=man:tdm-trinity(1) Conflicts=getty@tty7.service plymouth-quit.service After=systemd-user-sessions.service getty@tty7.service plymouth-quit.service
[Service] # temporary safety check until all DMs are converted to correct # display-manager.service symlink handling ExecStartPre=/bin/sh -c '[ "$(basename $(cat /etc/X11/default-display-manager 2>/dev/null))" = "tdm" ]' ExecStart=/opt/trinity/bin/tdm Restart=always
regards
--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 8:23 PM, deloptes deloptes@gmail.com wrote:
Keith Daniels wrote:
My bias is anti systemd, just so you know.-- scant documentation and there has never been a security review of its package.
Meanwhile the situation has improved.
by design it's never going to "improve". https://ewontfix.com/14/
the problems you're encountering with lack of documentation are down to pottering's pathological lack of comprehension of his responsibilities as a software developer:
http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog...
don't get caught up in the "civility" part, that's a distraction.
no, there's no documentation because pottering *keeps adding more and more to systemd*, making it a moving target, and, as PID 1, that's incredibly dangerous. i wasn't previously aware that you can't even upgrade without a reboot any more thanks to systemd being PID 1.
the more i learn about systemd the more shocked i become that people don't realise how serious this really is.
l.
On 05/04/2017 07:03 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
the more i learn about systemd the more shocked i become that people don't realise how serious this really is.
Has TDE been patched to provide 'multi-seat' under systemd? That, and the removal of console-kit by Arch, sent us down a strange path in a pure systemd environment several years ago with session/process tracking issues. (see old Bugs 1902 and 1656). Things have completely changed since I was building TDE for Arch. Hopefully I'll find time in the future to crank the build system up and find out where we are in the near future. (can't wait, with Linux 4.10.13, gcc 6.3, and glibc 2.25, ... that should be fun...)
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
the more i learn about systemd the more shocked i become that people don't realise how serious this really is.
I do realize, but swimming against the flow is getting very hard. Especially for notebook and phone systemd has some advantages, regardless of the disadvantages. I agree a lot could be done better, I agree there should have been a broader discussion, but systemd is an evidence of the changes in our society - at least I see it this way. There are groups of people, who think they know better and the impose decisions to the rest without asking. Interestingly a lot of those people come from the left/liberal corner. Not that I want to mess up with politics here, but those are my observations. So ... quo vadis Free Software, is my question?
regards
On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 9:10 AM, deloptes deloptes@gmail.com wrote:
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
the more i learn about systemd the more shocked i become that people don't realise how serious this really is.
I do realize, but swimming against the flow is getting very hard. Especially for notebook and phone systemd has some advantages, regardless of the disadvantages. I agree a lot could be done better, I agree there should have been a broader discussion, but systemd is an evidence of the changes in our society - at least I see it this way. There are groups of people, who think they know better and the impose decisions to the rest without asking.
yeah. i'm glad - relieved - to know that i'm not the only one that's noticed. i just watched captain america, civil war (again) and sharon quotes her aunt as saying that you have to have the courage to stand and say "no, you move".
Interestingly a lot of those people come from the left/liberal corner. Not that I want to mess up with politics here, but those are my observations. So ... quo vadis Free Software, is my question?
yeah, exactly.
a couple of observations: i began working with software libre - particularly on samba - because the polarisation of 2+ decades of windows (SMB, NT Domains) was causing businesses to get completely trapped and to have to take DRASTIC decisions to entirely abandon either UNIX or NT, or to simply remain unable to convert and to have to deal with the consequences.
.... now fast-forward to this decade... take out "Microsoft" and replace it with "Pottering working for Redhat"... replace "Samba" with "sysvinit" (or any other init system), replace "NT" with "systemd"...
... you get where i'm going with that? because apart from the names, the scenario is exactly the same: just as you describe, certain people have placed themselves into a position of power which they are then blatantly abusing.
second: i don't know about you but anyone who's had death threats made against them, i simply do not want that person's software on any machines that are my responsibility, and that's really the end of the matter. pottering is a type of individual whose general attitude inspires otherwise reasonable and rational people to go absolutely fucking nuts: that's a good enough indication that there's something desperately, desperately wrong with *his* mind-set... and that ends up percolating down to the code that he writes. it's a real simple decision: his code is OUT.
the third observation: software libre is actually about ethical behaviour *AND* software. it's an extremely rare combination which leaves the total number of people who actually really truly understand the "whole point", worldwide, as being really very small.
systemd's across the board ram-it-down-people's-throats adoption has completely violated the implicit trust placed by end-users in the developers of software libre... in *DIRECT* violation of the underlying ethical principles on which software libre is founded.
not even dr stallman fully comprehends this... because.. well... systemd has a GNU GPL license on it, right? so he's *not even in a position to criticise it*.
basically software libre is at a really interesting cross-roads which really has absolutely nothing to do with proprietary software at all.
the more people that are aware of this, recognise it, and decide "no, the line is drawn. we will not bow to being rail-roaded" the better society will be for it.
dr stallman's recent interview with lunduke has a really appropriate turn of phrase that he used to describe tim berners lee. the exact same words are appropriate here.
l.
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
... you get where i'm going with that? because apart from the names, the scenario is exactly the same: just as you describe, certain people have placed themselves into a position of power which they are then blatantly abusing.
Thank you for the good lecture. It might sound contradicting to my previous post, but I completely agree with you. My observation is that in the past 15y the society and free software changed. They are moving in the same autocratic direction pretending to be liberal and/or free. 15y ago it was easier to choose a lot of things. So indeed our freedom declines at all levels.
My conclusion is (after doing some research) that it is in fact related to education, hence the only way to change it is enlightenment. The contradictory in fact happens. Look at the fundings of the education system around the world. It all starts in the family, the kindergarden, the school. It is a virus that is eating up slowly, because it infects the family, the person and gets passed by.
Look at what happened to the mobile phone market. 15y ago you had perhaps 20 players ... now it is down to 2. My old Nokia N9 runs with /sbin/init. The SailFish, I had to order from India, has systemd. What can I do? Nokia N9 is a great phone, but it will die physically sooner or later. I need a replacement. What are my options? I feel limited in my choice compared to 5y ago etc.
The scary part is that the mass is driving all this, because the mass is driven by invisible force and the choice had been taken from it already. In fact it does not care about real choice. It wants to have a feeling that it is free, not that it is really free. This reminds me of the matrix somehow.
Now the main question is cui bono? that free software or "libre", as you call it, is being splitting up in fractions, thus not united anymore as it was time ago. Pseudo code with pseudo quality on top of it. Should I start doing farming and throw away that BS I have infront of me?
regards
-
David C. Rankin -
deloptes -
Felix Miata -
Keith Daniels -
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton