I temporarily renamed the ~/.kde directory so Trinity would create a new
profile directory.
Beauty is always subjective, but I think Trinity should change some of
the
old die-hard KDE defaults. As you mentioned previously, Trinity is now
the
upstream source, not KDE. You now are the man. Be bold. Be different. :)
I agree for the most part, but we must be careful not to be bold and different in the KDE4 style. ;-). Sometimes minor changes are OK in small quantities between releases, but usually large, sweeping changes will start alienating the types of users that are interested in this project.
So here are some thoughts about the default Trinity desktop.
- As you seem keen on changing references from KDE to Trinity, you
might
want to consider a new splash image. Likewise for your side image in the
K-Menu.
Done. Thank goodness for the GIMP!
- I always found the KDE-Classic Icon Theme somewhat unpleasant. The
Crystal SVG icon set is popular and cleaner.
Agree; it looks like the default is already set to crystalsvg in the code though?
- I never understood the blind acceptance of four virtual desktops.
Most
new users will appreciate two.
Sorry; I don't agree here. I can't imagine life without four desktops (and I have two 21" screens per desktop)! While this usage case may be a bit extreme, this feature is still a major productivity enhancer compared to Window$/Mac, therefore I think it should be emphasized as much as possible. Also on a more practical note, IIRC other Linux DEs use four desktops by default.
If you want to create a separate default for Slackware that could be done quite easily; I do that for the stock "cartoon" version of Kubuntu each release.
- With only two virtual desktops, the Small panel can be used as a
default.
Same with four; changed.
- Digital clocks are geeky. Just choose Plain as the default.
Agree; changed.
- Change the default desktop icon text to non-shadowed, white.
Not sure on this one; the non-shadowed icons blend in to certain desktop wallpapers and this may confuse users over time. Any thoughts from other list members?
- Get rid of the bouncing mouse cursor. :) Yeah, I mentioned that
already. I'm making a not-so-subtle point. The thing is obnoxious. Stupid,
Dumb. Irritating. Annoying. Childish. Unprofessional. I greatly
appreciate
any distro I test where the devs have changed the default mouse pointer
to
Non Busy. And quite a few devs have done that too.
Fully agree; I thought I already got rid of it though?
- None of the desktop device icons are enabled. You went through the
effort to create many new useful icons, so why not add them and set enable
Device Icons as the default?
Agree; changed.
- I don't understand the fetish and dumbing down with the default view
in
Konqueror with icons. Set the default view to Tree View, and Show Hidden
Files. Treat users like adults and not kids. :)
Sorry, disagree. I like the intuitive icon view myself, and even by their name, hidden files are supposed to be hidden! ;-) I can see too many "oops, I just dragged and dropped my .<critical system file> who knows where and now I can't use my computer" type complaints cropping up.
- A bug: when I select the desktop Web Browser Device Icon, I receive
an
error message: Unknown host default.browser. The message box has an OK
button but the message box disappears by itself in about 1.5 seconds. Insufficient time to actually read without repeating the process a few times.
Fixed.
- A bug: Selecting the My Documents Device Icon results in an error
because the ~/Documents directory does not exist. I personally would get upset if any software created such a directory on my system. On the other
hand, I think when a person explicitly enables that device icon then
such
a directory should get created. No, not quite. I think when a person
enables that directory a pop-up should appear asking for the path to that
directory. The default would be ~/Documents, but the user can change the
text in the popup text box. I don't consider that a feature request needing to be added after your feature freeze. I consider this behavior a
bug.
Fixed; the shortcut now queries XDG for the documents directory path.
- I'm glad you selected to display both software names and
descriptions
in the K-Menu. I always empathize with new users and they need both.
Flip
a coin, but I prefer Description (Name) rather than Name (Description).
My
belief is that most people are looking to solve a task and a description
first helps toward that goal. Especially since so many developers have given their apps names that provide no clue to the apps purpose.
The problem is that descriptions can change; e.g. become more descriptive. Change the first letter in the description and the user has to hunt through the entire list to find the same application again.
- So you added the option to use a Kickoff style K-Menu. Nice
programming touch. Really! You'll never see me use the Kickoff though.
I'm
just too old to change some habits. :) 14. Place the Exit/Lockout applet buttons on the default kicker. Many
people use the buttons and they provide a familiar method to exit for new
users.
Agree; changed.
- Trinity did not create a new ~/.kde3 directory, but honored $KDEHOME
and created a new ~/.kde!
I hope this helps!
Sure does!
Update kdelibs and kdebase to SVN revision 1176514 or above, recompile both, and re-test everything. I believe I have repaired most of the bugs, including the Klipper icon (thanks to your latest message regarding applet mode, which allowed me to reproduce the bug here).
Let me know if anything fishy shows up in testing, or if I forgot to address an issue!
Thanks,
Tim
I agree for the most part, but we must be careful not to be bold and different in the KDE4 style. ;-). Sometimes minor changes are OK in small quantities between releases, but usually large, sweeping changes will start alienating the types of users that are interested in this project.
Except for the bugs, everything was a suggestion. You're the Trinity BMOC and you get to make the final decisions.
I more than likely will modify the package defaults to my tastes with comments for people to restore the other defaults if they want.
Looks like we are making some progress with the various bugs. Still some that are unsolved and I'm working on those too. My head hurts.
I agree for the most part, but we must be careful not to be bold and different in the KDE4 style. ;-). Sometimes minor changes are OK in small quantities between releases, but usually large, sweeping changes will start alienating the types of users that are interested in this project.
Except for the bugs, everything was a suggestion. You're the Trinity BMOC and you get to make the final decisions.
I know. I also know I don't always make good decisions, which is why I try to take input from others on this list seriously. ;-)
I more than likely will modify the package defaults to my tastes with comments for people to restore the other defaults if they want.
That is expected; Slackware users are completely different from Ubuntu users, which are quite different from Fedora users, etc. Most good distros fine-tune the default settings to match their target audience.
Looks like we are making some progress with the various bugs.
Great!
Still some that are unsolved and I'm working on those too.
Sounds good.
Tim
While back I had offered the group a 4 or 5 year study (can't remember how many years now) of users and their impressions, suggestions, complaint and so on regarding KDE and Ark Linux (most KDE since it was how they interfaced) but no one seemed interested.
Because of this I've remained silent watching the emails go by. However, I'm going to offer some of that now.
I agree for the most part, but we must be careful not to be bold and different in the KDE4 style. ;-). Sometimes minor changes are OK in small quantities between releases, but usually large, sweeping changes will start alienating the types of users that are interested in this project.
This is very true. Aggressive changes leave no reference point for which to make the adaptive leap.
So here are some thoughts about the default Trinity desktop.
- As you seem keen on changing references from KDE to Trinity, you
might want to consider a new splash image. Likewise for your side image in
the K-Menu.
Done. Thank goodness for the GIMP!
Beware of excessive customization, they rarely go over well. 90% of the time, the users found a basic initial setup a good ground point to customize their DE.
- I always found the KDE-Classic Icon Theme somewhat unpleasant. The
Crystal SVG icon set is popular and cleaner.
Agree; it looks like the default is already set to crystalsvg in the code though?
A variety of icon sets should be made available, crystal is indeed one of the most popular, as were (in my studies) sparkle, Alien Aqua Baghira was also a very popular theme.
- I never understood the blind acceptance of four virtual desktops.
Most new users will appreciate two.
Sorry; I don't agree here. I can't imagine life without four desktops (and I have two 21" screens per desktop)! While this usage case may be a bit extreme, this feature is still a major productivity enhancer compared to Window$/Mac, therefore I think it should be emphasized as much as possible. Also on a more practical note, IIRC other Linux DEs use four desktops by default.
Even my noobiest of noobie users found having multiple desktops advantages it helped them focus their multitasking.
- Digital clocks are geeky. Just choose Plain as the default.
Agree; changed.
Many, especially the visually impaired found the digtil clock helpful. So long as its still there, it doesn't matter what the default is.,
- Change the default desktop icon text to non-shadowed, white.
Not sure on this one; the non-shadowed icons blend in to certain desktop wallpapers and this may confuse users over time. Any thoughts from other list members?
None shadowing, helps in most cases, once again, especially with the visually impaired. A semi bright blue will show up on dark and light backgrounds.
- Get rid of the bouncing mouse cursor. :) Yeah, I mentioned that
already. I'm making a not-so-subtle point. The thing is obnoxious. Stupid,
Dumb. Irritating. Annoying. Childish. Unprofessional. I greatly
appreciate > > any distro I test where the devs have changed the default
mouse pointer to Non Busy. And quite a few devs have done that too.
Fully agree; I thought I already got rid of it though?
The bouncy cursor is very popular, but was off by default on pure kde distros.
- None of the desktop device icons are enabled. You went through the
effort to create many new useful icons, so why not add them and set enable
Device Icons as the default?
Agree; changed.
Define Icon sets enabled?
- I don't understand the fetish and dumbing down with the default view
in Konqueror with icons. Set the default view to Tree View, and Show Hidden Files. Treat users like adults and not kids. :)
I completely agree here as do the results of my studies. 100% of the average 80 people switched to treeview (but didn't show hidden files). This dumbing down, for example "folders" instead of directory, is killing the chances of creating an educated KDE user.
Sorry, disagree. I like the intuitive icon view myself, and even by their name, hidden files are supposed to be hidden! ;-) I can see too many "oops, I just dragged and dropped my .<critical system file> who knows where and now I can't use my computer" type complaints cropping up.
Exposing hidden files is a dangerous idea, I've seen the results of it first hand. A combination of things can be used here. For example targeted icons sets for directories. All of my setups have custom icons to help identify the purpose of that dir. For example. The music dir under Media_Works, has a musically icon. Video dir has a video icon. Konq is still set to tree view but the icons help them ID the dir of choice faster. The icon view annoyed many people because of its lack of functionality. For example in tree view you can "peek" into the dir without having to enter it.
- A bug: Selecting the My Documents Device Icon results in an error
because the ~/Documents directory does not exist. I personally would get upset if any software created such a directory on my system. On the other hand, I think when a person explicitly enables that device icon then such a directory should get created. No, not quite. I think when a person enables that directory a pop-up should appear asking for the path to that directory. The default would be ~/Documents, but the user can change the text in the popup text box. I don't consider that a feature request needing to be added after your feature freeze. I consider this behavior a bug.
This is interesting since I use a User-Files dir for my files (See attached image), I also focus the side bar better. This allows for faster, easier navigation. My test subjects (ok victims) increased their ability to find file and navigate through the dirs by at least 80%.
- I'm glad you selected to display both software names and
descriptions in the K-Menu. I always empathize with new users and they need
both.
Exactly.
Flip a coin, but I prefer Description (Name) rather than Name (Description). My belief is that most people are looking to solve a task and a description first helps toward that goal. Especially since so many developers have given their apps names that provide no clue to the apps purpose.
I would have agreed with this, it was what I believed at first too. However, I was proven wrong. Most times, they wanted the name first then the description, because once they knew that K3B was the burner app, they looked for K3B, not the description. It slowed them down to have to glance through it before they found the name. Sort of like "get to the point already"
The problem is that descriptions can change; e.g. become more descriptive. Change the first letter in the description and the user has to hunt through the entire list to find the same application again.
Exactly
- So you added the option to use a Kickoff style K-Menu. Nice
programming touch. Really! You'll never see me use the Kickoff though.
I'm just too old to change some habits. :)
None of my users like kickoff, they preferred a the straight to the point kmenu. They do like personalized menus, its basically a dir contained in a "system" dir in user's home. the dir contains deskop files of the fave apps. Which is then used as a quick browser on kicker. Its a great short cut to all the most used apps. I can create a video for anyone who is interested. The most used "mini menu" is the penguin menu (so called because use a crystal tux for the icon, everyone loves it). You drag and drop your fave apps in there and then click, there it is. As I said, I can provide videos to anyone who wants to see it in action.
- Place the Exit/Lockout applet buttons on the default kicker. Many
people use the buttons and they provide a familiar method to exit for new users.
yes and no. I have found that, if people use a top bar, they like it, but putting it on the bottom kicker makes it "too busy". Most of my users, use ctrl, alt del, to bring it up or just right click on the desktop itself (most common way they use).
I hope this is of some use and for what its worth.
Kate Draven
While back I had offered the group a 4 or 5 year study (can't remember how many years now) of users and their impressions, suggestions, complaint and so on regarding KDE and Ark Linux (most KDE since it was how they interfaced) but no one seemed interested.
Because of this I've remained silent watching the emails go by. However, I'm going to offer some of that now.
Much appreciated.
<snip>
Beware of excessive customization, they rarely go over well. 90% of the time, the users found a basic initial setup a good ground point to customize their DE.
You are correct. However in this case, the only changes made were to replace KDE references with TDE ones; this is required as Trinity is a fork of KDE, and I don't know how much longer KDE e.V. (which holds the trademarks for the affected images) is going to put up with this project using their symbols. Visually the changes are very minor.
- I always found the KDE-Classic Icon Theme somewhat unpleasant. The
Crystal SVG icon set is popular and cleaner.
Agree; it looks like the default is already set to crystalsvg in the code though?
A variety of icon sets should be made available, crystal is indeed one of the most popular, as were (in my studies) sparkle, Alien Aqua Baghira was also a very popular theme.
Are those icon sets fully GPL compatible? If so, can you send over links to them for possible inclusion?
<snip>
- Change the default desktop icon text to non-shadowed, white.
Not sure on this one; the non-shadowed icons blend in to certain desktop wallpapers and this may confuse users over time. Any thoughts from other list members?
None shadowing, helps in most cases, once again, especially with the visually impaired. A semi bright blue will show up on dark and light backgrounds.
I would; I'm just getting nervous about the amount of UI changes being made in this release. Maybe for 3.5.13?
- Get rid of the bouncing mouse cursor. :) Yeah, I mentioned that
already. I'm making a not-so-subtle point. The thing is obnoxious. Stupid,
Dumb. Irritating. Annoying. Childish. Unprofessional. I greatly
appreciate > > any distro I test where the devs have changed the default
mouse pointer to Non Busy. And quite a few devs have done that too.
Fully agree; I thought I already got rid of it though?
The bouncy cursor is very popular, but was off by default on pure kde distros.
It's still available, just turned off by default.
- None of the desktop device icons are enabled. You went through the
effort to create many new useful icons, so why not add them and set enable
Device Icons as the default?
Agree; changed.
Define Icon sets enabled?
The default is now for six new system icons to show up on the desktop, much like MS Windows. These icons can be turned off by the user in the desktop configuration dialog if desired.
- I don't understand the fetish and dumbing down with the default
view in Konqueror with icons. Set the default view to Tree View, and Show Hidden Files. Treat users like adults and not kids. :)
I completely agree here as do the results of my studies. 100% of the average 80 people switched to treeview (but didn't show hidden files). This dumbing down, for example "folders" instead of directory, is killing the chances of creating an educated KDE user.
I'll have to think about it some more. I have users at an educational institution that are completely confused when presented with the tree view; I wonder if this default should be set by each distribution based on its intended audience. E.g. Ubuntu users won't like the tree view, but maybe Slackware users would?
<snip>
- So you added the option to use a Kickoff style K-Menu. Nice
programming touch. Really! You'll never see me use the Kickoff though.
I'm just too old to change some habits. :)
None of my users like kickoff, they preferred a the straight to the point kmenu. They do like personalized menus, its basically a dir contained in a "system" dir in user's home. the dir contains deskop files of the fave apps. Which is then used as a quick browser on kicker. Its a great short cut to all the most used apps. I can create a video for anyone who is interested. The most used "mini menu" is the penguin menu (so called because use a crystal tux for the icon, everyone loves it). You drag and drop your fave apps in there and then click, there it is. As I said, I can provide videos to anyone who wants to see it in action.
I personally hate Kickoff myself, but it was a very popular feature request for Trinity. The K Menu will *always* be the default for the Trinity project.
- Place the Exit/Lockout applet buttons on the default kicker. Many
people use the buttons and they provide a familiar method to exit for new users.
yes and no. I have found that, if people use a top bar, they like it, but putting it on the bottom kicker makes it "too busy". Most of my users, use ctrl, alt del, to bring it up or just right click on the desktop itself (most common way they use).
Good point; I started to notice this myself when dogfooding the recent changes. This change has been reverted, but I have left a single #define statement in kdebase/kicker/kicker/core/containerarea.cpp to control this feature, should a distribution wish to reactivate it.
I hope this is of some use and for what its worth.
Thanks again; hard data always helps!
Tim
Another idea.
Might be too late for 3.5.12, but you decide.
I have been impressed with a few distro devs who provide a handy user manual. Some provide the manual as a desktop icon, some as a menu item.
Examples are Linux Mint, sidux, and Mepis.
Trinity is not a full distro. Yet Trinity has evolved already with some significant new features. My recent flurry of usability posts has proven that even a long-time user of KDE can get lost for a spell with some of the changes.
I think Trinity would shine in reviews if reviewers saw some kind of help page on the new Trinity desktop so even veteran KDE 3.5 users can get up to speed more quickly.
I can write. I can edit. I can create simple HTML pages. Yet I would need help assembling the information. I still have not wrapped my head around how to filter the svn logs because many of the svn log entries are narrowly descriptive. That is, those descriptions make sense only when a person knows what the patch does to a particular segment of code.
The 3.5.11 web page is a good start, but I think something on the Trinity desktop will garnish kudos.
For those people migrating to Trinity from 3.5, like me, who will be using an existing KDE profile, some mechanism is needed to place that "Welcome!" icon on the desktop. Perhaps an entry in startupconfig?
Just a thought.
Great idea.
The manual I wrote basically focuses on KDE and some basic gnu linux commands. Which may be outdated now. I could try to dig it up and see if it can be adapted. It also included a basic install and custom install guide which could be adapted to a given distro. Ark Linux had a full GUI installer with QTParted for its partitioner. It was still under devel when everything came to a halt. :(
Kate
PS regardless of how its done or where it comes from, its a big project.
On Friday 17 September 2010, Darrell Anderson wrote:
Another idea.
Might be too late for 3.5.12, but you decide.
I have been impressed with a few distro devs who provide a handy user manual. Some provide the manual as a desktop icon, some as a menu item.
Examples are Linux Mint, sidux, and Mepis.
Trinity is not a full distro. Yet Trinity has evolved already with some significant new features. My recent flurry of usability posts has proven that even a long-time user of KDE can get lost for a spell with some of the changes.
I think Trinity would shine in reviews if reviewers saw some kind of help page on the new Trinity desktop so even veteran KDE 3.5 users can get up to speed more quickly.
I can write. I can edit. I can create simple HTML pages. Yet I would need help assembling the information. I still have not wrapped my head around how to filter the svn logs because many of the svn log entries are narrowly descriptive. That is, those descriptions make sense only when a person knows what the patch does to a particular segment of code.
The 3.5.11 web page is a good start, but I think something on the Trinity desktop will garnish kudos.
For those people migrating to Trinity from 3.5, like me, who will be using an existing KDE profile, some mechanism is needed to place that "Welcome!" icon on the desktop. Perhaps an entry in startupconfig?
Just a thought.
Regarding what the defaults should be, I'll readily admit I'm old school. :) I have been using computers for 30 years.
Just some additional comments. As I wrote previously, other than the bugs, I offered only suggestions. Final decisions are not mine to make. :)
I can very much live with the default of Tree View and not showing hidden files. I find Icon View disorienting. All of the icons look the same to me. Pictures might be worth a thousand words, but in a file manager I'd rather have a thousand words. Maybe that is only because of the way I started using computers so long ago.
I don't think changing the default icon set will change any user's expectations of how the desktop should work. Most computer users today understand the desktop icon metaphor. But the icon style/theme can easily change the user's impression. As the old adage goes, only one chance to make a first impression. I don't think the old classic icon set makes a good impression.
I was not arguing against using virtual desktops. Only the default number. I use two and find that sufficient. I think any new Trinity user who is a power user will quickly change the number if he or she wants. My vote for two virtual desktops is that new users and the less technically inclined probably are never going to use more than two so why overwhelm them with four? With two icons in the panel they will learn easily enough whether they like that feature.
I think the shadows with icon text is hard to see for many people. I know the older I get the more I dislike such bling. I wear reading glasses or the text in a book is blurry to me. Not so 10 years ago. :) When I see gimmicks like shadowed text on the computer desktop I struggle to read the content. I suspect many people with poor vision do too. My greatest pet peeve with Web 2.0 is that web devs all use humongous TVs for monitors and they design the text for that size picture, which means the text is too small to read on most desktop monitors. I treat gimmicks like shadowed text the same way. Developers impress me the most when I remain productive, not when they try to show off their programming skills. :)
The bouncing cursor is popular? I just lowered my hope for humanity another couple of notches. :)
Interesting information about Name (Description) vs. Description (Name). No problem with either choice for my part. But okay, if we use Tree View in the file manager (and not hidden files), then continue treating the user like an adult and use Name (Description). That will help them learn the app names much quicker. And probably leads toward keeping everything sorted easier too.
KDE provides several options for customizing the classic menu. There are options to add special menu items, such as Most Recently Used items, Settings, and Favorites.
As a side comment I always have struggled with the penguin focus. I don't want to play favorites toward Torvalds or Stallman. Both were pivotal for where where we are today. I think both men should be respected equally. I believe favoring one over the other is disrespectful. I would prefer either using both the penguin and gnu graphics or using neither and using something neutral.
<snip>
I can very much live with the default of Tree View and not showing hidden files. I find Icon View disorienting. All of the icons look the same to me. Pictures might be worth a thousand words, but in a file manager I'd rather have a thousand words. Maybe that is only because of the way I started using computers so long ago.
I do understand your reasoning, however I'm not comfortable making that large of a change at this point. If you want to enable it as the default for Slackware that's fine with me--the file you will want to modify is profile_filemanagement.desktop; change "View2_ServiceName=konq_iconview" to "View2_ServiceName=konq_listview"
I don't think changing the default icon set will change any user's expectations of how the desktop should work. Most computer users today understand the desktop icon metaphor. But the icon style/theme can easily change the user's impression. As the old adage goes, only one chance to make a first impression. I don't think the old classic icon set makes a good impression.
Neither do I. Right now Crystal should be used (at least it shows up that way on my test system)--does a new user still use the old Classic theme on your system?
<snip>
I think the shadows with icon text is hard to see for many people. I know the older I get the more I dislike such bling. I wear reading glasses or the text in a book is blurry to me. Not so 10 years ago. :) When I see gimmicks like shadowed text on the computer desktop I struggle to read the content. I suspect many people with poor vision do too. My greatest pet peeve with Web 2.0 is that web devs all use humongous TVs for monitors and they design the text for that size picture, which means the text is too small to read on most desktop monitors. I treat gimmicks like shadowed text the same way. Developers impress me the most when I remain productive, not when they try to show off their programming skills. :)
OK, I'm convinced. White text with no shadows it is.
Tim
On Saturday 18 September 2010 00:18:54 Timothy Pearson wrote: [...]
- I never understood the blind acceptance of four virtual desktops.
Most
new users will appreciate two.
Sorry; I don't agree here. I can't imagine life without four desktops
+1
- Digital clocks are geeky. Just choose Plain as the default.
Agree; changed.
I preffer LCD-look because is easier to see the clock when I'm away from computer.
[...]
- I don't understand the fetish and dumbing down with the default view
in Konqueror with icons. Set the default view to Tree View, and Show
Hidden Files. Treat users like adults and not kids. :)
Sorry, disagree. I like the intuitive icon view myself, and even by their name, hidden files are supposed to be hidden! ;-) I can see too many "oops, I just dragged and dropped my .<critical system file> who knows where and now I can't use my computer" type complaints cropping up.
Maybe sometime we will replace konqueror with dolphin. I never used konq as filemanager because I feel it too slow and uncomfortable. I started using dolphin when I begin to create cmake scripts for kdelibs and seems pretty versatile and agile (for example filtering is very useful feature).
[...]
- A bug: Selecting the My Documents Device Icon results in an error
because the ~/Documents directory does not exist. I personally would get upset if any software created such a directory on my system. On the other
hand, I think when a person explicitly enables that device icon then
such
a directory should get created. No, not quite. I think when a person
enables that directory a pop-up should appear asking for the path to that
directory. The default would be ~/Documents, but the user can change the
text in the popup text box.
In this case I think is better to follow xdg standards. For example, for user documents, xdg_user_dir_lookup("DOCUMENTS").
Check http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/xdg-user-dirs
- I'm glad you selected to display both software names and
descriptions in the K-Menu. I always empathize with new users and they need both. Flip a coin, but I prefer Description (Name) rather than Name (Description).
Bad ideea. For example I have 4 webbrowsers. I do not want to start one of it, but specific one. And I can continue with many examples.
[...]
-
Darrell Anderson -
Kate Draven -
Serghei Amelian -
Timothy Pearson