Tim, All,
What is the status of renaming from 'k_whatever' to 't_whatever'? Are we at a point where all that will be done is done? Obviously, this effects building and packaging. For instance tdebase still contains all the 'k' applications:
kappfinder kate kcheckpass kcminit kcontrol kdcop kdebugdialog kdeeject kdepasswd kdesktop kdialog kfind khelpcenter khotkeys kicker kioslave klipper kmenuedit knetattach konqueror konsole kpager kpersonalizer kreadconfig krootbacking kscreensaver ksmserver ksplashml kstart ksysguard ksystraycmd
While some have move to 't' apps:
tdeinit tdeprint tdesu tdm tdmlib
Do we expect to see in the future:
tappfinder tate tcheckpass tcminit ... tonqueror (Sounds like the biggest baddest Tonka truck) tonsole (Sounds like something you have removed as a kid) ...
Or can we be pretty certain the remaining 'k' names won't change?
What is the status of renaming from 'k_whatever' to 't_whatever'? Are we at a point where all that will be done is done? Obviously, this effects building and packaging. For instance tdebase still contains all the 'k' applications:
Check etherpad for the status of renaming.
Tim said he is not going to rename everything unless there are legal or license requirements to do so. With that said, there have been and are several bug reports addressing what needs to be renamed specifically to avoid conflicts with KDE4.
A few apps I'd like to see renamed are kde-config, kde-menu, and khelpcenter.
The latter especially because I am working on updating all help files. From the user perspective I can edit the underlying docbook files to avoid displaying "khelpcenter," but I would like to see all khelpcenter references renamed to tdehelpcenter. Like other renaming efforts, such as kdm -> tdm, renaming khelpcenter requires a focused effort and not just a simple search-and-replace.
I am not demanding anything be renamed right now. Renaming everything that has a "k" prefix is a huge task and one not to be considered lightly. Renaming some apps and commands makes sense, but I am not in favor of wholesale changes right now. Possibly as an R15 goal but for R14, I wish people would get more involved in resolving current outstanding bug reports. :)
Darrell
On 02/23/2012 10:41 AM, Darrell Anderson wrote:
What is the status of renaming from 'k_whatever' to 't_whatever'? Are we at a point where all that will be done is done? Obviously, this effects building and packaging. For instance tdebase still contains all the 'k' applications:
Check etherpad for the status of renaming.
Tim said he is not going to rename everything unless there are legal or license requirements to do so. With that said, there have been and are several bug reports addressing what needs to be renamed specifically to avoid conflicts with KDE4.
A few apps I'd like to see renamed are kde-config, kde-menu, and khelpcenter.
The latter especially because I am working on updating all help files. From the user perspective I can edit the underlying docbook files to avoid displaying "khelpcenter," but I would like to see all khelpcenter references renamed to tdehelpcenter. Like other renaming efforts, such as kdm -> tdm, renaming khelpcenter requires a focused effort and not just a simple search-and-replace.
I am not demanding anything be renamed right now. Renaming everything that has a "k" prefix is a huge task and one not to be considered lightly. Renaming some apps and commands makes sense, but I am not in favor of wholesale changes right now. Possibly as an R15 goal but for R14, I wish people would get more involved in resolving current outstanding bug reports. :)
Darrell
When it is all said and done all the "k" prefixes should be done otherwise you have a kde/tde environment. Which one is it?
Is this thing tde or is this thing kde3++?
On 02/23/2012 10:41 AM, Darrell Anderson wrote:
What is the status of renaming from 'k_whatever' to 't_whatever'? Are we at a point where all that will be done is done? Obviously, this effects building and packaging. For instance tdebase still contains all the 'k' applications:
Check etherpad for the status of renaming.
Tim said he is not going to rename everything unless there are legal or license requirements to do so. With that said, there have been and are several bug reports addressing what needs to be renamed specifically to avoid conflicts with KDE4.
A few apps I'd like to see renamed are kde-config, kde-menu, and khelpcenter.
The latter especially because I am working on updating all help files. From the user perspective I can edit the underlying docbook files to avoid displaying "khelpcenter," but I would like to see all khelpcenter references renamed to tdehelpcenter. Like other renaming efforts, such as kdm -> tdm, renaming khelpcenter requires a focused effort and not just a simple search-and-replace.
I am not demanding anything be renamed right now. Renaming everything that has a "k" prefix is a huge task and one not to be considered lightly. Renaming some apps and commands makes sense, but I am not in favor of wholesale changes right now. Possibly as an R15 goal but for R14, I wish people would get more involved in resolving current outstanding bug reports. :)
Darrell
When it is all said and done all the "k" prefixes should be done otherwise you have a kde/tde environment. Which one is it?
Is this thing tde or is this thing kde3++?
It is TDE, which is continued development on a fork of KDE3. There are significant practical problems with renaming major user visible applications (konsole and konqueror come to mind), both in terms of the sound of the new name and major retraining effort/confusion. Remember that some people have been using these applications by name for close to a decade.
The renaming effort has mainly focused on libraries and very small applications that users are unlikely to ever execute by name directly.
Tim
On Thursday 23 February 2012 11:20:45 am Timothy Pearson wrote:
On 02/23/2012 10:41 AM, Darrell Anderson wrote: When it is all said and done all the "k" prefixes should be done otherwise you have a kde/tde environment. Which one is it?
Is this thing tde or is this thing kde3++?
It is TDE, which is continued development on a fork of KDE3. There are significant practical problems with renaming major user visible applications (konsole and konqueror come to mind), both in terms of the sound of the new name and major retraining effort/confusion. Remember that some people have been using these applications by name for close to a decade.
The renaming effort has mainly focused on libraries and very small applications that users are unlikely to ever execute by name directly.
I agree with both of the above points. While it is TDE, all the K prefixes can be confusing for new users, while just changing names can be confusing for veterans. Personally, I think the renaming of major apps should be very gradual to allow for veterans to adjust little by little. I do believe that consistency is needed in all the apps.
Planned and completed renames should be posted on the web site somewhere for normal users to view (wiki?). In addition, renames (even for minor apps) should be included in the docbooks under, e.g., "Where did all my 'K' apps go?"
One solution for Konqueror and Konsole is to rename to Conqueror and Console, perhaps in R15. That /should/ be similar enough that people can adjust to the new names before adding the T prefix, or could be a temporary name until we think of something else.
Planned and completed renames should be posted on the web site somewhere for normal users to view (wiki?). In addition, renames (even for minor apps) should be included in the docbooks under, e.g., "Where did all my 'K' apps go?"
I'm updating the help files and user guides. I plan to add a section titled something like "The K and T In App Names." I will explain the history of the naming convention. In that section I could explain the gradual renaming efforts and state the goal is gradual and that renaming is not a priority and only a nice goal.
In recent discussions I mentioned we have no documentation review process. Any renaming necessarily requires a documentation review (and I'm doing just that in my current revisions). Long term, if done correctly, upon release the documentation will reflect the new name and any renaming will require only an announcement in all mailing lists and any "What's New" documents we push with each release.
I notice some in this list still refer to package names with a k rather than the newer t. :)
I'm a long-time user with deeply engrained habits. Yet I don't see major hurdles with renaming. We have to be careful to keep everybody fully informed, that's all. We can change text strings in the sources, but we can't change custom configurations or scripts users have created.
For example, recently I was troubleshooting something and made no progress until I realized I was incorrectly typing kdesu rather than tdesu. Another example is one of my startup scripts failed to work as expected until I realized I had not yet updated from kdm to tdm.
Yes, there will be mental adjustments with any significant renaming. I agree there should be both a forewarning announcement as well as a release announcement. :)
Darrell
On 02/23/2012 10:20 AM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
It is TDE, which is continued development on a fork of KDE3.
I for one like the k_names for all that can stay k_whatever. ALT+F2 <app I want> is second nature. Even going forward, if major apps change names, then instead of replacing the 'k' with a 't' why not just add a 't' in the beginning:
tkonsole (sounds a lot better than 'tonsole') and tkonqueror (sounds a lot better than 'tonqueror')
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:19:52 -0600 "David C. Rankin" drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
On 02/23/2012 10:20 AM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
It is TDE, which is continued development on a fork of KDE3.
I for one like the k_names for all that can stay k_whatever. ALT+F2 <app I want> is second nature. Even going forward, if major apps change names, then instead of replacing the 'k' with a 't' why not just add a 't' in the beginning:
tkonsole (sounds a lot better than 'tonsole') and tkonqueror (sounds a lot better than 'tonqueror')
Or we could completely change the names, as MATÉ did. For Konsole, unfortunately Terminal and Terminator both exist. I think Trinitype (as a name which is close to Teletype) could be a good name, but as I'm French-speaking I can't say if it sounds good ;) For Konqueror, the original name came from the browsers (http://konqueror.kde.org/faq/#WheredoesthenameiKonqueroricomefrom): Navigator, Explorer, Konqueror. Perhaps ColonisT would be a good sequel ?
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:19:52 -0600 "David C. Rankin" drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
On 02/23/2012 10:20 AM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
It is TDE, which is continued development on a fork of KDE3.
I for one like the k_names for all that can stay k_whatever. ALT+F2 <app I want> is second nature. Even going forward, if major apps change names, then instead of replacing the 'k' with a 't' why not just add a 't' in the beginning:
tkonsole (sounds a lot better than 'tonsole') and tkonqueror (sounds a lot better than 'tonqueror')
Or we could completely change the names, as MATÃ did. For Konsole, unfortunately Terminal and Terminator both exist. I think Trinitype (as a name which is close to Teletype) could be a good name, but as I'm French-speaking I can't say if it sounds good ;) For Konqueror, the original name came from the browsers (http://konqueror.kde.org/faq/#WheredoesthenameiKonqueroricomefrom): Navigator, Explorer, Konqueror. Perhaps ColonisT would be a good sequel ?
Sounds like a colonoscopy to me. ;-)
Konqueror is an especially tricky app to rename; it would be like trying to rename Explorer under Windows. How many times have you said to a user "Fire up Konqueror and do..."?
Tim
On 23 February 2012 15:00, Timothy Pearson kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net wrote:
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:19:52 -0600 "David C. Rankin" drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
On 02/23/2012 10:20 AM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
It is TDE, which is continued development on a fork of KDE3.
I for one like the k_names for all that can stay k_whatever. ALT+F2 <app I want> is second nature. Even going forward, if major apps change names, then instead of replacing the 'k' with a 't' why not just add a 't' in the beginning:
tkonsole (sounds a lot better than 'tonsole') and tkonqueror (sounds a lot better than 'tonqueror')
Or we could completely change the names, as MATÉ did. For Konsole, unfortunately Terminal and Terminator both exist. I think Trinitype (as a name which is close to Teletype) could be a good name, but as I'm French-speaking I can't say if it sounds good ;) For Konqueror, the original name came from the browsers (http://konqueror.kde.org/faq/#WheredoesthenameiKonqueroricomefrom): Navigator, Explorer, Konqueror. Perhaps ColonisT would be a good sequel ?
Sounds like a colonoscopy to me. ;-)
Konqueror is an especially tricky app to rename; it would be like trying to rename Explorer under Windows. How many times have you said to a user "Fire up Konqueror and do..."?
Tim
We need to consider that while these applications might have arbitrary names - they are just as arbitrary as Apple or Microsoft, Chevy or Ford or Mozilla Firefox.
But what do these names carry? Recognition. Recognition. Recognition.
Whenever KDE3 is mentioned in a reddit thread on /r/linux, it almost always involves "I wish I had Konqueror back". That recognition is important.
I say we leave applications that are recognizable by name the same. Konsole, Kicker, Konversation, Konqueror. but KPPP and KPDF and other less notable ones should be renamed.
P.S. Colon-ist? I don't want to be the butt of every joke.
Calvin
We need to consider that while these applications might have arbitrary names - they are just as arbitrary as Apple or Microsoft, Chevy or Ford or Mozilla Firefox.
But what do these names carry? Recognition. Recognition. Recognition.
Whenever KDE3 is mentioned in a reddit thread on /r/linux, it almost always involves "I wish I had Konqueror back". That recognition is important.
I say we leave applications that are recognizable by name the same. Konsole, Kicker, Konversation, Konqueror. but KPPP and KPDF and other less notable ones should be renamed.
P.S. Colon-ist? I don't want to be the butt of every joke.
Just my 2 cent: From the marketing point of view it would not be very wise idea to rename the flagship applications like konqueror.
The less recogizable, well, one should at least make sure that the new name is not worse than the old one .. or that the new name carries a new meaning :-)
Adding a wraper, that pops up a messgebox to give the user a clue what was renamed to what and then starts the "new" application would help a lot for scripts and heavy console users (like myself) and users that try to move their old settings from kde to tde.
Nik
On 02/23/2012 02:21 PM, Calvin Morrison wrote:
I say we leave applications that are recognizable by name the same. Konsole, Kicker, Konversation, Konqueror. but KPPP and KPDF and other less notable ones should be renamed.
Or -- don't rename a damn thing unless absolutely required :)
On 02/23/2012 01:54 PM, /dev/ammo42 wrote:
Or we could completely change the names, as MATÉ did. For Konsole, unfortunately Terminal and Terminator both exist. I think Trinitype (as a name which is close to Teletype) could be a good name, but as I'm French-speaking I can't say if it sounds good ;) For Konqueror, the original name came from the browsers (http://konqueror.kde.org/faq/#WheredoesthenameiKonqueroricomefrom): Navigator, Explorer, Konqueror. Perhaps ColonisT would be a good sequel ?
alt+F2 <now WTF was the name of that thing now?>...
the closer to the original the better :)
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/dev/ammo42 -
Baho Utot -
Calvin Morrison -
Darrell Anderson -
David C. Rankin -
Kristopher John Gamrat -
Mag. Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
Timothy Pearson