Yes, this is a coup.... Well, i don't think i'm saying anything controversial, when i'm saying that pearson has no time for trinity, and the project is effectively leaderless.
From the perspective of an outsider (me), Slavek seams the most invested in the project.... Maybe he should be in charge.
Hi Anonymous wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com,
Before we all vote to make you BDFL it would be helpful if you would provide a list of the new TDE features you have implemented.
And the helpful TDE documents you have written.
And the TDE infrastructure you maintain.
And the number of TDE installations/users you support and over how many release cycles.
And the TDE bugs you have fixed (excluding those you closed by mistake.)
Thanks!
--Mike
On Saturday 26 May 2018 22:38:49 Mike Bird wrote:
Hi Anonymous wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com,
Before we all vote to make you BDFL it would be helpful if you would provide a list of the new TDE features you have implemented.
And the helpful TDE documents you have written.
And the TDE infrastructure you maintain.
And the number of TDE installations/users you support and over how many release cycles.
And the TDE bugs you have fixed (excluding those you closed by mistake.)
Thanks!
--Mike
You are the master mirror guy? when was the last time pearson posted in this mailing list? You can't have a project with effectively no leader. Just look at the European Union.
I'm sure you'll respect Slavec as dictator of the project. He seam to put most of the effort.
On Sat May 26 2018 14:04:20 wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday 26 May 2018 22:38:49 Mike Bird wrote:
Hi Anonymous wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com,
Before we all vote to make you BDFL it would be helpful if you would provide a list of the new TDE features you have implemented.
And the helpful TDE documents you have written.
And the TDE infrastructure you maintain.
And the number of TDE installations/users you support and over how many release cycles.
And the TDE bugs you have fixed (excluding those you closed by mistake.)
Thanks!
--Mike
You are the master mirror guy? when was the last time pearson posted in this mailing list? You can't have a project with effectively no leader. Just look at the European Union.
I'm sure you'll respect Slavec as dictator of the project. He seam to put most of the effort.
If you haven't done significant work on TDE, what makes you think you know how the project works? Or should work?
Primum non nocere.
--Mike
On Saturday 26 May 2018 23:30:45 Mike Bird wrote:
On Sat May 26 2018 14:04:20 wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday 26 May 2018 22:38:49 Mike Bird wrote:
Hi Anonymous wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com,
Before we all vote to make you BDFL it would be helpful if you would provide a list of the new TDE features you have implemented.
And the helpful TDE documents you have written.
And the TDE infrastructure you maintain.
And the number of TDE installations/users you support and over how many release cycles.
And the TDE bugs you have fixed (excluding those you closed by mistake.)
Thanks!
--Mike
You are the master mirror guy? when was the last time pearson posted in this mailing list? You can't have a project with effectively no leader. Just look at the European Union.
I'm sure you'll respect Slavec as dictator of the project. He seam to put most of the effort.
If you haven't done significant work on TDE, what makes you think you know how the project works? Or should work?
Primum non nocere.
--Mike
Simple question. Who's in charge here?
On Sat May 26 2018 14:54:08 wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com wrote:
Simple question. Who's in charge here?
Who is in charge of FLOSS?
What question do you want a person in charge to decide for you?
* Primum non nocere. * If it ain't broke don't fix it. * Pečení holubi nelítají do huby.
Why not fix a few bugs to learn how the process works?
--Mike
On Sunday 27 May 2018 00:36:55 Mike Bird wrote:
On Sat May 26 2018 14:54:08 wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com wrote:
Simple question. Who's in charge here?
Who is in charge of FLOSS?
What question do you want a person in charge to decide for you?
- Primum non nocere.
- If it ain't broke don't fix it.
- Pečení holubi nelítají do huby.
Why not fix a few bugs to learn how the process works?
--Mike
Your logic is flawed. What you have in mind are small one man projects. Big projects need a leader or they fail.
A successful example is the Linux kernel with Linus torvalds. An unsuccessful example is freebsd and their ban on hugs.
An example of failure in trinity, is the issue of renaming. No one is seeing long term consequences (distros don't like it), just the short term (just shove it in opt).
The leader, should be above the crowd. Set long term goals. Take final decisions. See the whole picture of the project. Properly manage people and politics. Deal with other projects. etc....
Leadership matters. Strange group dynamics are involved. In short, the bigger the group, the stupider it gets.
An example of failure in trinity, is the issue of renaming.
TDE applications are run from menus and icons. TDE users don't care that the executable is called /opt/trinity/bin/kmail. They care that clicking on KMail works as they expect and that it works well.
Google Earth is also in /opt and AFAIK not in any major distros. Go and tell Larry and Sergey they're doing it all wrong and they'll explain to you that as Google Earth is an add-on application like TDE rather than a distro like Debian the correct place for both TDE and Google Earth is /opt, not /usr.
If and when a distro such as Devuan were to include TDE then they would probably install it in /usr. But TDE users wouldn't notice and wouldn't care. And TDE would still go in /opt when added to systems built from other distros.
You are sending a lot of emails, and closing bug reports that are not yet fixed, but I don't see you actually fixing any bugs or doing anything constructive.
TDE software works and works well. Therefore the TDE project is working and working well.
--Mike
Hi,
Please all cool down and remember that Timothy Pearson is providing infrastructure, internet and power-hungry servers for TDE. Even if he does not participate actively on TDE anymore, what he provides is still of great value, probably of a few hundreds of dollars per months. Please consider TDE to be in maintenance mode, with changes made only to make it still work on newer linux systems.
(please don't talk to me about the top-posting thing, as I can't do anything else with this ms outlook account. I already proposed the idea of having a forum instead, but it was promptly rejected. But a forum would have avoided the top-posting issues...)
Thank you and keep it cool!
-Alexandre
________________________________ De : Mike Bird mgb-trinity@yosemite.net Envoyé : 26 mai 2018 20:02:56 À : trinity-devel@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Objet : Re: [trinity-devel] proposal to change project leader
An example of failure in trinity, is the issue of renaming.
TDE applications are run from menus and icons. TDE users don't care that the executable is called /opt/trinity/bin/kmail. They care that clicking on KMail works as they expect and that it works well.
Google Earth is also in /opt and AFAIK not in any major distros. Go and tell Larry and Sergey they're doing it all wrong and they'll explain to you that as Google Earth is an add-on application like TDE rather than a distro like Debian the correct place for both TDE and Google Earth is /opt, not /usr.
If and when a distro such as Devuan were to include TDE then they would probably install it in /usr. But TDE users wouldn't notice and wouldn't care. And TDE would still go in /opt when added to systems built from other distros.
You are sending a lot of emails, and closing bug reports that are not yet fixed, but I don't see you actually fixing any bugs or doing anything constructive.
TDE software works and works well. Therefore the TDE project is working and working well.
--Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-devel-unsubscribe@lists.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-devel-help@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting
On Sunday 27 May 2018 02:30:59 Alexandre Couture wrote:
Hi,
Please all cool down and remember that Timothy Pearson is providing infrastructure, internet and power-hungry servers for TDE. Even if he does not participate actively on TDE anymore, what he provides is still of great value, probably of a few hundreds of dollars per months. Please consider TDE to be in maintenance mode, with changes made only to make it still work on newer linux systems.
(please don't talk to me about the top-posting thing, as I can't do anything else with this ms outlook account. I already proposed the idea of having a forum instead, but it was promptly rejected. But a forum would have avoided the top-posting issues...)
Thank you and keep it cool!
-Alexandre
Just say it clearly. This project is leaderless.
I'm not aggressive against pearson. Very nice about the servers. For a project, servers are not enough. It needs some one who is actually in charge. A kid need's parents, not just food.
Let's put Slavec in charge. There's an other credible candidate?
Am Sonntag, 27. Mai 2018 schrieb wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com:
On Sunday 27 May 2018 02:30:59 Alexandre Couture wrote:
Hi,
Please all cool down and remember that Timothy Pearson is providing infrastructure, internet and power-hungry servers for TDE. Even if he does not participate actively on TDE anymore, what he provides is still of great value, probably of a few hundreds of dollars per months. Please consider TDE to be in maintenance mode, with changes made only to make it still work on newer linux systems.
(please don't talk to me about the top-posting thing, as I can't do anything else with this ms outlook account. I already proposed the idea of having a forum instead, but it was promptly rejected. But a forum would have avoided the top-posting issues...)
Thank you and keep it cool!
-Alexandre
Just say it clearly. This project is leaderless.
I'm not aggressive against pearson. Very nice about the servers. For a project, servers are not enough. It needs some one who is actually in charge. A kid need's parents, not just food.
Let's put Slavec in charge. There's an other credible candidate?
I vote for my cat! He's some invaluable capabilities needed for a leader: first class manipulator, looks cute but has teeth and claws, and not to forget: only eats vagan food! This is easily to be proven: his food eats veagan food, so by mathematical deduction we can conclude he eats only vegan food by eating food that eats vegan food so he has good carma and thats what each project needs!
Nik
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
I vote for my cat! He's some invaluable capabilities needed for a leader: first class manipulator, looks cute but has teeth and claws, and not to forget: only eats vagan food! This is easily to be proven: his food eats veagan food, so by mathematical deduction we can conclude he eats only vegan food by eating food that eats vegan food so he has good carma and thats what each project needs!
This is great idea :)
It is a neutral team player, no one would blame.
On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 1:30 AM, Alexandre Couture ac586133@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi,
Please all cool down and remember that Timothy Pearson is providing infrastructure, internet and power-hungry servers for TDE.
which is worth respecting and appreciating.
i trust, timothy (if you're reading this) that you're not going to be handing over the domain name?
Even if he does not participate actively on TDE anymore, what he provides is still of great value, probably of a few hundreds of dollars per months. Please consider TDE to be in maintenance mode, with changes made only to make it still work on newer linux systems.
that's precisely why i recommend it for my clients, as it is *not* modified / enhanced / feature-upgraded and so on. my clients are *specifically* used to KDE 3.5 and it would be an unmitigated disaster for it to be "upgraded".
(please don't talk to me about the top-posting thing, as I can't do anything else with this ms outlook account. I already proposed the idea of having a forum instead, but it was promptly rejected. But a forum would have avoided the top-posting issues...)
forums for software development typically result in it being swamped by AOL-style "metoo" postings... they're suitable for shallow "end-user" conversations and utterly insane for technical development.
l.
On 05/27/2018 03:48 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 1:30 AM, Alexandre Couture ac586133@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi,
Please all cool down and remember that Timothy Pearson is providing infrastructure, internet and power-hungry servers for TDE.
which is worth respecting and appreciating.
I got to work with Timothy for a short while when he started Trinity, he was asking for help with Debian permissions while trying to port Trinity to Debian, he got a lot of help and I have a lot of respect for him, much love.
Cheers,
On Sunday 27 May 2018 12:48:57 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
Even if he does not participate actively on TDE anymore, what he provides is still of great value, probably of a few hundreds of dollars per months. Please consider TDE to be in maintenance mode, with changes made only to make it still work on newer linux systems.
that's precisely why i recommend it for my clients, as it is *not* modified / enhanced / feature-upgraded and so on. my clients are *specifically* used to KDE 3.5 and it would be an unmitigated disaster for it to be "upgraded".
And they are not enough devs to fix bugs or to update to new standards.
On Sun May 27 2018 09:47:52 wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com wrote:
And they are not enough devs to fix bugs or to update to new standards.
Other than bugs you've mistakenly closed that were not actually fixed, how many bugs have you actually fixed?
And how much developer time have you wasted with your posts here?
Your net contribution to TDE thus far is negative. Think about that.
--Mike
On Sunday 27 May 2018 19:27:24 Mike Bird wrote:
On Sun May 27 2018 09:47:52 wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com wrote:
And they are not enough devs to fix bugs or to update to new standards.
Other than bugs you've mistakenly closed that were not actually fixed, how many bugs have you actually fixed?
And how much developer time have you wasted with your posts here?
Your net contribution to TDE thus far is negative. Think about that.
--Mike
Trinity has too many red flags
The leader has disappeared. dev mailing list is a ghost town Bugs accumulate and don't get fixed You find easily many unreported bugs. Failure to function with important apps Hackish/sloppy solutions Not enough maintainers No new features/ compliance with standards.
The project is dying!!!
This is why distros don't touch this. Not even one. (Q4OS is simply one of you guys)
**What is needed, is to bend over backwards to go where people are.** To Distros and other popular sites.
On Sun May 27 2018 11:10:07 wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com wrote:
Trinity has too many red flags
The leader has disappeared. dev mailing list is a ghost town Bugs accumulate and don't get fixed You find easily many unreported bugs. Failure to function with important apps Hackish/sloppy solutions Not enough maintainers No new features/ compliance with standards.
The project is dying!!!
This is why distros don't touch this. Not even one. (Q4OS is simply one of you guys)
**What is needed, is to bend over backwards to go where people are.** To Distros and other popular sites.
Shouldn't you be focusing on your golf game, Mr President?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512
Hackish/sloppy solutions
Please provide a list of the sloppy solutions and we will try to make them better if possible.
This is why distros don't touch this. Not even one. (Q4OS is simply one of you guys)
Q4OS is not one of TDE development team, AFAICT. But they do a good job at reporting bugs, so it helps.
I really would like to see TDE in linux distros, but don't want to eradicate TDE nature to do so. IMHO, if the distro guys are interested, they can start from the packages we are already providing and customize them as they see fit, but TDE as a project would remain the same. The approach is absolutely doable, see Q4OS for a well executed example. Debian could follow the same path if they wish to add TDE and same goes for other distros.
I agree that more exposure is more likely to get more devs, but the nature of TDE must remain intact. Efficient. Productive.
Cheers Michele
Michele Calgaro composed on 2018-05-28 14:57 (UTC+0900):
I agree that more exposure is more likely to get more devs, but the nature of TDE must remain intact. Efficient. Productive.
+ + + :-)
On 05/28/2018 08:09 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
Michele Calgaro composed on 2018-05-28 14:57 (UTC+0900):
I agree that more exposure is more likely to get more devs, but the nature of TDE must remain intact. Efficient. Productive.
- :-)
Don't make me laugh. You guys, you will not even accept moving the user list to reedit. If you could do that, you would have done so years ago.
Am Montag, 28. Mai 2018 schrieb wofgdkncxojef:
On 05/28/2018 08:09 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
Michele Calgaro composed on 2018-05-28 14:57 (UTC+0900):
I agree that more exposure is more likely to get more devs, but the nature of TDE must remain intact. Efficient. Productive.
- :-)
Don't make me laugh. You guys, you will not even accept moving the user list to reedit. If you could do that, you would have done so years ago.
Does this scene remember you of something?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bsCu5yD9aY
Nik
On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 9:32 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp office@klepp.biz wrote:
Am Montag, 28. Mai 2018 schrieb wofgdkncxojef:
Don't make me laugh. You guys, you will not even accept moving the user list to reedit.
if you believe that that would be something you would like to take responsibility for (instead of complaining and accusing), because you feel it would be effective, don't wait for anyone else's permission, go ahead, take responsibility for it and DO IT.
... yeh?
Does this scene remember you of something?
so in 2012, when i was earning barely above the minimum amount to feed myself, my partner and my 3 year old daughter - this through various activities that i didn't ask permission for - some motherfucking delusional dickheads decided to hijack the domain of the software libre project that was my primary source of income.
within about a month my already dangerously-low income went down from around USD $900 a month to below $500.
within three months we were evicted from the property that we lived at: this was actually a good thing because it had, due to the harsh weather, become unfit for human habitation. the water pump for the well failed: we had no drinking water (bear in mind that i had a 3 year old child to look after) and it took screaming at the landlord, threatening to report them, to get it fixed.
the complete lack of respect that you are showing towards timothy pearson by using his server's resources to discuss a hostile takeover of the project and to IMPOSE your world view is reminding me of the delusional attitude that those people had, back in 2012.
you DO NOT start a discussion in the way that you have, wofgdkncxojef. you need to start with QUESTIONS. your first post should have started "hello i am new here: why does this project appear to be leaderless?" and that would have got you some informed non-confrontational answers that DID NOT PISS EVERYBODY OFF.
then you could have moved on to asking if anyone was INTERESTED in changing things from the way that they are, and established a rapport with them.
you could then have asked, "does anyone else have any ideas on how to improve the project, i have some suggestions, including leveraging reddit, github, etc. etc." at which point you would have got some useful feedback.
instead you went straight in with, "i'm new, fuck you all, you're totally incompetent fuckers, fucking well abandoned the project, i DEMAND that slavek be put in charge cos he's clearly much better than any of you fuckers".
to which the only answer is: FUCK OFF.
it's just that nobody's really spelled it out to you that way: they're trying to be polite but you're *really* trying their patience.
ASKING QUESTIONS and INVITING PEOPLE TO CONTRIBUTE is how you BECOME the benevolent dictator, wofgdkncxojef. it's done by NOT being a leader AT ALL. you are just the person who asks people the things that they might otherwise be a bit afraid to do. you initiate the conversations so that they can get over their fears. you are respectful and understanding. you give people the opportunity to learn from their mistakes... and make it clear that they have to clear up their own messes. you provide development rules and guidelines that allow people to work together instead of making yourself the most important person in the room.
in short: you have NO IDEA how successful free software projects work, wofgdkncxojef.... and right now you have NO IDEA how to LISTEN to people, or indicate that you've understood their point of view.
most people at this point would say, "go away, stop bothering us, and fork the project: nobody is stopping you". however it annoys me intensely to hear this being said (to just me and me alone, so i'm not going to do that), what i recommend that you do is: talk to the people that you know, get a *group* of you together, and do your own thing. just the coordination and communication of *establishing* that group will teach you a lot.
but please, for god's sake, STOP using timothy pearson's time, money and resources, it's enormously disrespectful, and, given that at least four people have tried to explain to you that what you want to do is not welcome (and why), you're at the point where continuing to fail to listen to people is going to get you banned from the list.
do you get the gist?
l.
On Monday 28 May 2018 02:09:08 Felix Miata wrote:
Michele Calgaro composed on 2018-05-28 14:57 (UTC+0900):
I agree that more exposure is more likely to get more devs, but the nature of TDE must remain intact. Efficient. Productive.
- :-)
I would like to agree with that, too. (I'm not an active developer, but follow this list, and sometimes build things and look at the source code.)
Sadly, more devs is not necessarily a good thing, if they don't know what they are doing, and break things rather than improving them. Sadly, KDE seemed to have a problem with this, when I moved to Trinity around March last year.
There's no doubt that some of the KDE developers are really excellent. Konqueror in Debian 8.7, which I installed around March last year, is great, and I use it every day, in Trinity. Okular is also great, and I use it nearly every day, in Trinity. There are some other great KDE programs in Debian 8.7, too, which I use in Trinity.
But sadly, some of the KDE programs, that previously worked well, have been broken so badly in Debian 8.7, it almost amounts to vandalism. Here are two examples.
KolourPaint, a wonderful program, that I use a lot. It really needed no revision at all. But in Debian 8.7, someone has drastically damaged it, by making the tools area at the left far larger than it needs to be, by putting long winded text next to each tool. So the area for the picture you are trying to work on is far smaller. (There is no need for text on the toolbar at all, because a tooltip tells you what each tool is for, if you hover the mouse over it.) Thank goodness for KolourPaint-Trinity, which has not been damaged.
KWrite, a great program. But in Debian 8.7, someone has drastically broken the hard word wrap tool, in the Tools menu, which worked perfectly in an earlier version of KDE4. It now does a hard word wrap that is unstable, in the sense that if you apply a hard word wrap again, the wrapping of a paragraph often changes right back to the beginning, even if you have made no further edits at all, or just added something to the end of the paragraph. It often takes 5 or 6 applications of this broken hard word wrap, to achieve a stable result. Now I always use KWrite-Trinity.
I really appreciate the fact that Trinity is stable, reliable, and works. I also really appreciate the fact that I can use the good things from later versions of KDE in Trinity, and they work perfectly together. Since I installed Trinity R14.0.4 around March last year, I've been getting the best of both worlds. It's great.
Trinity is doing absolutely great.
I would like to say thank you to Timothy Pearson, and the developers, and everyone else who contributes to Trinity, including the other organizations that host repositories.
With best regards, Chris Austin
On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 5:47 PM, wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com wrote:
And they are not enough devs to fix bugs
my risk-analysis says:
* KDE 3.5 has been stable for ages: there are unlikely to be any significant new bugs * external dependency libraries are likely to have bugs... that will be fixed by the developers *of those 3rd party libraries*
therefore, i am not in the slightest bit concerned about "bugs".
or to update to new standards.
GREAT! i absolutely specifically *do not want* new standards. or updates. or upgrades. or anyone to piss with, mess with, claim "it's out of date therefore it MUST be changed, altered, developed or otherwise fucked with".
l.
On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 12:29 AM, wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com wrote:
Big projects need a leader or they fail.
this is a voice of inexperience. are you going to recommend a toxic code-of-conduct and mob-rule voting as well? please state clearly if you are and i will know that i need to move my clients off of TDE, immediately.
l.
On Sunday 27 May 2018 12:44:26 Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 12:29 AM, wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com wrote:
Big projects need a leader or they fail.
this is a voice of inexperience. are you going to recommend a toxic code-of-conduct and mob-rule voting as well? please state clearly if you are and i will know that i need to move my clients off of TDE, immediately.
l.
What happened in freebsd, happened precisely because they have no leadership. They have an experiment in democracy with votes and bureaucracy. And that turned to shit.
A benevolent dictator is more viable. Right now, trinity has no leader at all. No long term vision, no strategy. Only short term. Only the next patch.
wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com wrote:
What happened in freebsd, happened precisely because they have no leadership. They have an experiment in democracy with votes and bureaucracy. And that turned to shit.
A benevolent dictator is more viable. Right now, trinity has no leader at all. No long term vision, no strategy. Only short term. Only the next patch.
I disagree - you still don't get it. The vision of Timothy and all TDE and its users is exactly to not change much if there is no reason. Each change leads to risk and consumes resources.
Take as an example kgpg. Last year suddenly gpg2 became standard and I and others spent many hours to upgrade kgpg to handle gpg2. I have not written down exactly how much time I spent on it, but it might have been around 10-15days/2-3 weeks in total - so something like 80-120h. And I am not a great developer, but still can do things right and I am willing to contribute and learn. At the end every one is doing this in the free time on voluntary base. If I have earned the money for the time I could have gone to a vacation with the family. Have more respect to what you have on the table. If you don't like it, then you are not on the right table. But eating and complaining that the taste is not good and that the owner of the restaurant should go, is something I dislike mostly.
No one here wants to spent time on something if it is not necessary and IMO for the future more people will look for a desktop that just works. True that it is not that shiny and looks like from last century, but for many people stable environment that just works is more important than fancy and shiny thing.
So you have been given some options: first start working on bug fixes or whatever that will prove you qualify (in the restaurants dishwashers are always handy) and make a compromise regarding things that TDE does not want to see changed (respect authority). I can not imagine going to RedHat and telling them that their manager must be replaced because I don't like the way he leads RedHat or systemd or whatever.
Your benefit from TDE is none in offending and starting wars, but in simply using it as stable environment and improving it.
regards
On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 10:04 PM, wofgdkncxojef@gmail.com wrote:
You can't have a project with effectively no leader.
you can if it does not actually need development.
l.
-
Alexandre Couture -
Chris Austin -
deloptes -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
Felix Miata -
Jimmy Johnson -
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton -
Michele Calgaro -
Mike Bird -
wofgdkncxojef -
wofgdkncxojef＠gmail.com