All there: https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always open!
Am 01.02.2012 20:47, schrieb Robert Xu:
All there: https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always open!
Before misinformation about KWin spread, I dare to speak up.
17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I would hate to have to install kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4 libraries and automatically installs that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
Personally I hate statements without checking facts. KWin neither requires Akonadi nor Nepomuk. My CI-system has neither one installed. But to give proof:
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kde-window-manager | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-runtime | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-workspace-bin | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$
So this should not at all be a problem for Trinity - yeah \o/ :-)
17:48:04 <kb9vqf-offsite> kwin4 is highly integrated into kde4's core libraries 17:48:13 <kb9vqf-offsite> unless I'm wrong :)
again checking facts first, helps. You are mistaken. Of course KWin uses kde4 libs, but nothing so critical that I would not suggest to you to use KWin instead of your fork. In fact I did an in dep analysis whether we could go for a Qt4-only version just last week. I decided to postpone to after frameworks 5 due to many kDebug statements. But apart from that the usage is rather small and could easily be ifdefed. I think I offered you to use a special branch in kde-workspace and I have a CI-system which can ensure that the branch does not break.
17:48:48 <eliddell> I find it odd that that KDE dev never gave a concrete example of a twin bug fixed in kwin. Why is it superior?
I find it odd that you question the stating of one of the devs who really knows the code. If you are interested in the bugs: our bug tracker and version control system is open. Feel free to search :-)
17:49:19 <Strangelv> Didn't they fix most of the bugs by starting over with a mostly new slate of bugs? 17:49:22 <kb9vqf-offsite> yep
no! We did not start over! The window manager is unchanged - except less bugs! We added a compositor which is orthogonal to the window manager and of course we introduced bugs there. But we also fixed them. At least there are less bugs in KWin's compositor than in kcompmgr used by trinity (btw. the developer of kcompmgr is one of the core contributor to todays compositor). Feel free to watch my blog where I soon will show some stats about the development history since 4.0. It shows nicely that the window manager is hardly changed.
17:49:34 <kb9vqf-offsite> kwin has a different focus 17:49:43 <kb9vqf-offsite> it aims to be a fancy effects type manager
No! KWin has no focus on being a "fancy effects type manager". Yes we have fancy effects, because there is user demand, but we have none of the fancy effects supported by default.
17:50:01 <kb9vqf-offsite> but I can almost guarantee dependence on new Qt4 features
Yes of course we make use of features of Qt 4.7. Why shouldn't we? It's a great release and I can only recommend you to make usage of it :-)
If you have questions about KWin please ask, but please don't base any decisions on wrong information. Unfortunately none of the statements by kb9vqf in regards of KWin has been correct. I have no idea who is behind this nickname and I personally don't care.
Once again I can only recommend you to use KWin instead of twin. KWin 4 is a continuation of KWin 3 and not a rewrite. The KWin team has more active contributors than people had been active in your latest meeting :-)
Kind Regards Martin Gräßlin
KWin maintainer
Am 01.02.2012 20:47, schrieb Robert Xu:
All there: https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always open!
Before misinformation about KWin spread, I dare to speak up.
17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I would hate to have to install kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4 libraries and automatically installs that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
Personally I hate statements without checking facts. KWin neither requires Akonadi nor Nepomuk. My CI-system has neither one installed. But to give proof:
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kde-window-manager | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-runtime | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-workspace-bin | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$
So this should not at all be a problem for Trinity - yeah \o/ :-)
As I said... "unless I am wrong" :-) I was speaking from past experience only, and the basic steps outlined still hold. twin is not going to go away, but kwin should be allowed (along with any other WM) in TDE sessions.
I meant nepomuk, not akodanai. It can be hard to keep all of the (foreign language) codenames straight in one's mind. :-)
On my Ubuntu system nepomuk has to be installed with kwin:
===========================================================================
~$ sudo apt-get install kde-window-manager Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following extra packages will be installed: kdebase-runtime kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins kdoctools kubuntu-debug-installer libkdecorations4 libkephal4 libkwineffects1a libkworkspace4 libvirtodbc0 qapt-batch virtuoso-minimal virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common The following NEW packages will be installed: kde-window-manager kdebase-runtime kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins kdoctools kubuntu-debug-installer libkdecorations4 libkephal4 libkwineffects1a libkworkspace4 libvirtodbc0 qapt-batch virtuoso-minimal virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common
===========================================================================
~$ dpkg -L kdebase-runtime-data | grep nepomuk | grep autostart /usr/share/autostart/nepomukserver.desktop
===========================================================================
so that is NOT an option for me.
Tim
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 14:54:23 -0600 "Timothy Pearson" kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net wrote:
Am 01.02.2012 20:47, schrieb Robert Xu:
All there: https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always open!
Before misinformation about KWin spread, I dare to speak up.
17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I would hate to have to install kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4 libraries and automatically installs that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
Personally I hate statements without checking facts. KWin neither requires Akonadi nor Nepomuk. My CI-system has neither one installed. But to give proof:
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kde-window-manager | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-runtime | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-workspace-bin | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$
So this should not at all be a problem for Trinity - yeah \o/ :-)
As I said... "unless I am wrong" :-) I was speaking from past experience only, and the basic steps outlined still hold. twin is not going to go away, but kwin should be allowed (along with any other WM) in TDE sessions.
I meant nepomuk, not akodanai. It can be hard to keep all of the (foreign language) codenames straight in one's mind. :-)
On my Ubuntu system nepomuk has to be installed with kwin:
[...]
so that is NOT an option for me.
Gentoo doesn't appear to require nepomuk as a kwin dependency (~30 other packages I don't have installed, yes, but not nepomuk), so I suspect you're running into either an Ubuntu quirk or something to do with semantic desktops, which are not an absolute requirement for KDE4 IIRC.
The main problem I'm seeing is kdelibs, which *is* a kwin dependency as far as I can tell, and which wants to drag in strigi and a bunch of other unwanted-by-me cruft ranging from phonon to consolekit. Either all references to kdelibs that can't be replaced with tdelibs would need to be scrubbed from the kwin code, or a small kdelibs-subset containing only the functions vital to kwin would need to be created. Without knowing the code, I can't say whether that's possible or not--presumably, Martin can tell us.
If we're going to include kwin in Trinity, we have to cut it down those of its dependencies that aren't used by anything else to at most 2-3 smallish packages, regardless of what those packages are, IMNSHO. Concentrating on akonadi/strigi/nepomuk is a red herring.
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 14:54:23 -0600 "Timothy Pearson" kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net wrote:
Am 01.02.2012 20:47, schrieb Robert Xu:
All there: https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always open!
Before misinformation about KWin spread, I dare to speak up.
17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I would hate to have to install kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4 libraries and
automatically
installs that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
Personally I hate statements without checking facts. KWin neither requires Akonadi nor Nepomuk. My CI-system has neither one installed. But to give proof:
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kde-window-manager | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-runtime | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-workspace-bin | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$
So this should not at all be a problem for Trinity - yeah \o/ :-)
As I said... "unless I am wrong" :-) I was speaking from past experience only, and the basic steps outlined still hold. twin is not going to go away, but kwin should be allowed (along with any other WM) in TDE sessions.
I meant nepomuk, not akodanai. It can be hard to keep all of the (foreign language) codenames straight in one's mind. :-)
On my Ubuntu system nepomuk has to be installed with kwin:
[...]
so that is NOT an option for me.
Gentoo doesn't appear to require nepomuk as a kwin dependency (~30 other packages I don't have installed, yes, but not nepomuk), so I suspect you're running into either an Ubuntu quirk or something to do with semantic desktops, which are not an absolute requirement for KDE4 IIRC.
The main problem I'm seeing is kdelibs, which *is* a kwin dependency as far as I can tell, and which wants to drag in strigi and a bunch of other unwanted-by-me cruft ranging from phonon to consolekit. Either all references to kdelibs that can't be replaced with tdelibs would need to be scrubbed from the kwin code, or a small kdelibs-subset containing only the functions vital to kwin would need to be created. Without knowing the code, I can't say whether that's possible or not--presumably, Martin can tell us.
If we're going to include kwin in Trinity, we have to cut it down those of its dependencies that aren't used by anything else to at most 2-3 smallish packages, regardless of what those packages are, IMNSHO. Concentrating on akonadi/strigi/nepomuk is a red herring.
Sounds reasonable. Martin, can this be done?
Tim
Am 01.02.2012 22:57, schrieb E. Liddell:
The main problem I'm seeing is kdelibs, which *is* a kwin dependency as far as I can tell, and which wants to drag in strigi and a bunch of other unwanted-by-me cruft ranging from phonon to consolekit.
These are all issues going away with KDE Frameworks 5 which we can expect the first release out in this year.
Either all references to kdelibs that can't be replaced with tdelibs would need to be scrubbed from the kwin code, or a small kdelibs-subset containing only the functions vital to kwin would need to be created. Without knowing the code, I can't say whether that's possible or not--presumably, Martin can tell us.
It is possible to build such a kdelibs-subset. That was my idea for "Qt only kwin". What we need is KWindowSystem which actually belongs to KWin but is for historic reasons part of kdelibs. It will also become an independent library in Frameworks 5.
If we're going to include kwin in Trinity, we have to cut it down those of its dependencies that aren't used by anything else to at most 2-3 smallish packages, regardless of what those packages are, IMNSHO. Concentrating on akonadi/strigi/nepomuk is a red herring.
I quite agree that buzzword bingo is the wrong approach ;-) We have not many dependencies and I am interested in having a branch with few dependencies (also for other parties than just Trinity). But as I wrote in the last mail: I decided to delay it till we are based on Frameworks 5. For Trinity it might be easier as things like kDebug did not change between kdelibs 3 and 4.
Cheers Martin
Am 01.02.2012 21:54, schrieb Timothy Pearson:
Am 01.02.2012 20:47, schrieb Robert Xu:
All there: https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always open!
Before misinformation about KWin spread, I dare to speak up.
17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I would hate to have to install kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4 libraries and automatically installs that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
Personally I hate statements without checking facts. KWin neither requires Akonadi nor Nepomuk. My CI-system has neither one installed. But to give proof:
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kde-window-manager | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-runtime | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-workspace-bin | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$
So this should not at all be a problem for Trinity - yeah \o/ :-)
As I said... "unless I am wrong" :-) I was speaking from past experience only, and the basic steps outlined still hold. twin is not going to go away, but kwin should be allowed (along with any other WM) in TDE sessions.
I meant nepomuk, not akodanai. It can be hard to keep all of the (foreign language) codenames straight in one's mind. :-)
On my Ubuntu system nepomuk has to be installed with kwin:
===========================================================================
~$ sudo apt-get install kde-window-manager Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following extra packages will be installed: kdebase-runtime kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins kdoctools kubuntu-debug-installer libkdecorations4 libkephal4 libkwineffects1a libkworkspace4 libvirtodbc0 qapt-batch virtuoso-minimal virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common The following NEW packages will be installed: kde-window-manager kdebase-runtime kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins kdoctools kubuntu-debug-installer libkdecorations4 libkephal4 libkwineffects1a libkworkspace4 libvirtodbc0 qapt-batch virtuoso-minimal virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common
===========================================================================
~$ dpkg -L kdebase-runtime-data | grep nepomuk | grep autostart /usr/share/autostart/nepomukserver.desktop
===========================================================================
so that is NOT an option for me.
This is a packaging issue. As I mentioned: my CI builds without anything of Nepomuk (no soprano, no strigi, etc.) being installed at all on my server.
Cheers Martin
On 1 February 2012 17:33, Martin Gräßlin mgraesslin@kde.org wrote:
Am 01.02.2012 21:54, schrieb Timothy Pearson:
Am 01.02.2012 20:47, schrieb Robert Xu:
All there: https://gist.github.com/**1718892 https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always open!
Before misinformation about KWin spread, I dare to speak up.
17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I would hate to have to install
kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4 libraries and automatically installs that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
Personally I hate statements without checking facts. KWin neither requires Akonadi nor Nepomuk. My CI-system has neither one installed. But to give proof:
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kde-window-manager | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-runtime | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-workspace-bin | grep akonadi martin@martin-thinkpad:~$
So this should not at all be a problem for Trinity - yeah \o/ :-)
As I said... "unless I am wrong" :-) I was speaking from past experience only, and the basic steps outlined still hold. twin is not going to go away, but kwin should be allowed (along with any other WM) in TDE sessions.
I meant nepomuk, not akodanai. It can be hard to keep all of the (foreign language) codenames straight in one's mind. :-)
On my Ubuntu system nepomuk has to be installed with kwin:
==============================**==============================**
~$ sudo apt-get install kde-window-manager Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following extra packages will be installed: kdebase-runtime kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins kdoctools kubuntu-debug-installer libkdecorations4 libkephal4 libkwineffects1a libkworkspace4 libvirtodbc0 qapt-batch virtuoso-minimal virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common The following NEW packages will be installed: kde-window-manager kdebase-runtime kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins kdoctools kubuntu-debug-installer libkdecorations4 libkephal4 libkwineffects1a libkworkspace4 libvirtodbc0 qapt-batch virtuoso-minimal virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common
==============================**==============================**
~$ dpkg -L kdebase-runtime-data | grep nepomuk | grep autostart /usr/share/autostart/**nepomukserver.desktop
==============================**==============================**
so that is NOT an option for me.
This is a packaging issue. As I mentioned: my CI builds without anything of Nepomuk (no soprano, no strigi, etc.) being installed at all on my server.
Cheers Martin
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Same here. About 174Mb of depends getting pulld in on ubuntu - no thanks!
I see the reasoning behind switching to kwin. I don't see it being worth the effort.
Am 01.02.2012 23:41, schrieb Calvin Morrison:
Same here. About 174Mb of depends getting pulld in on ubuntu - no thanks!
I see the reasoning behind switching to kwin. I don't see it being worth the effort.
AFAIK Trinity is doing its own packaging. If you are unsatisfied with the packaging of kwin on ubuntu, provide a different package. You have to do this anyway as e.g. you would not want Plasma integration while we do.
On 1 February 2012 17:45, Martin Gräßlin mgraesslin@kde.org wrote:
Am 01.02.2012 23:41, schrieb Calvin Morrison:
Same here. About 174Mb of depends getting pulld in on ubuntu - no thanks!
I see the reasoning behind switching to kwin. I don't see it being worth the effort.
AFAIK Trinity is doing its own packaging. If you are unsatisfied with the packaging of kwin on ubuntu, provide a different package. You have to do this anyway as e.g. you would not want Plasma integration while we do.
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Agreed - At what point will the Frameworks 5 be used? Until then we might as well wait.
Am 01.02.2012 23:57, schrieb Calvin Morrison:
On 1 February 2012 17:45, Martin Gräßlin mgraesslin@kde.org wrote:
Am 01.02.2012 23:41, schrieb Calvin Morrison:
Same here. About 174Mb of depends getting pulld in on ubuntu - no thanks!
I see the reasoning behind switching to kwin. I don't see it being worth the effort.
AFAIK Trinity is doing its own packaging. If you are unsatisfied with the packaging of kwin on ubuntu, provide a different package. You have to do this anyway as e.g. you would not want Plasma integration while we do.
Agreed - At what point will the Frameworks 5 be used? Until then we might as well wait.
There is no date yet, but we expect a Frameworks release this year. After that we can transit KWin to use Frameworks. Part of Frameworks can hopefully even be used before (e.g. KWindowSystem).
Cheers Martin
-
Calvin Morrison -
E. Liddell -
Martin Gräßlin -
Robert Xu -
Timothy Pearson