================================ #trinity-desktop-meeting Meeting ================================
Meeting started by kb9vqf at 19:06:23 UTC. The full logs are available at http://ftp.heanet.ie/pub/lincomlinux/MeetBot/trinity-desktop-meeting/2011/tr... The mirror syncs every six hours. Try again later if you cannot current access it. .
Meeting summary --------------- * this is the June meeting (MutantTurkey, 19:06:38) * CMake conversion (kb9vqf, 19:06:46) * LINK: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/9 (MutantTurkey, 19:07:14) * 3.5.13 will not be a full CMake port, it will be a blend of CMake for the core modules and Automake for the rest (kb9vqf, 19:08:12) * ACTION: samelian and MutantTurkey will keep working oni t (MutantTurkey, 19:08:52)
* TQt for Qt4 (kb9vqf, 19:10:06) * LINK: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/28 (MutantTurkey, 19:10:32) * TQt4 port is on schedule (MutantTurkey, 19:13:08)
* Git Migration (kb9vqf, 19:13:45) * LINK: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/29 (kb9vqf, 19:14:31) * LINK: http://git.xfce.org/ see how xfce does it (MutantTurkey, 19:16:46) * research needs to be done, but the move is probably a definite, 3rd party? (MutantTurkey, 19:26:39) * ACTION: MutantTurkey and Xu_R will look into the best way to handle the GIT repo (kb9vqf, 19:26:51)
* CMake conversion (kb9vqf, 19:27:24) * ACTION: Xu_R needs to update the roadmap (Xu_R|iPodWC, 19:29:40)
* Patchwork (kb9vqf, 19:30:36) * patchwork can be used to send in patches via ML (MutantTurkey, 19:34:51)
* Earlier outage (kb9vqf, 19:37:11)
* SuSE Support (kb9vqf, 19:40:15) * ACTION: Pull and commit gcc46.diff patches from opensuse (kb9vqf, 19:42:48) * invite people to provide binaries (MutantTurkey, 19:50:58) * ACTION: invite distro binary maintainers and validate from candidates (kb9vqf, 19:52:02)
* Monthly Bugs (kb9vqf, 19:54:56) * LINK: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/25 (kb9vqf, 19:59:14)
* Dependencies (kb9vqf, 20:01:41) * ACTION: figure out potential libssh breakage (kb9vqf, 20:02:41) * libssh does not break fish/sftp (kb9vqf, 20:03:06) * LINK: http://linuxtesting.org/upstream-tracker/compat_reports/libssh/ (MutantTurkey, 20:03:49) * ACTION: samelian will try to rewrite fish:// for 3.5.13 (kb9vqf, 20:09:15)
* Trinity Documentation / Dev Info Location (kb9vqf, 20:09:30) * ACTION: MutantTurkey will handle Wiki/Etherpad integration (kb9vqf, 20:15:26)
* Module Deprecation (kb9vqf, 20:15:49) * LINK: http://community.kde.org/Calligra/Meetings/Begin_2011_meeting/Ideas#Going_mo... (MutantTurkey, 20:16:43) * ACTION: Deprecate koffice (kb9vqf, 20:19:33)
* String freeze (kb9vqf, 20:20:22)
* Future Versions (kb9vqf, 20:26:53) * ACTION: Xu_R needs to update the Roadmap based on the June meeting Etherpad (kb9vqf, 20:29:22)
* General Discussion (kb9vqf, 20:30:02)
Meeting ended at 20:42:33 UTC.
Action Items ------------ * samelian and MutantTurkey will keep working oni t * MutantTurkey and Xu_R will look into the best way to handle the GIT repo * Xu_R needs to update the roadmap * Pull and commit gcc46.diff patches from opensuse * invite distro binary maintainers and validate from candidates * figure out potential libssh breakage * samelian will try to rewrite fish:// for 3.5.13 * MutantTurkey will handle Wiki/Etherpad integration * Deprecate koffice * Xu_R needs to update the Roadmap based on the June meeting Etherpad
Action Items, by person ----------------------- * MutantTurkey * samelian and MutantTurkey will keep working oni t * MutantTurkey and Xu_R will look into the best way to handle the GIT repo * MutantTurkey will handle Wiki/Etherpad integration * samelian * samelian and MutantTurkey will keep working oni t * samelian will try to rewrite fish:// for 3.5.13 * Xu_R * MutantTurkey and Xu_R will look into the best way to handle the GIT repo * Xu_R needs to update the roadmap * Xu_R needs to update the Roadmap based on the June meeting Etherpad * **UNASSIGNED** * Pull and commit gcc46.diff patches from opensuse * invite distro binary maintainers and validate from candidates * figure out potential libssh breakage * Deprecate koffice
People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * kb9vqf (293) * MutantTurkey (131) * samelian (61) * Xu_R|iPodWC (32) * Xu_R (11) * ammo42 (8) * [lindaemon] (2) * msb (2)
Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4
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You can track the progress we are making on these meeting minutes through here: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/30
You can track the progress we are making on these meeting minutes through here: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/30
This is a very sad news that you are going to deprecate KOffice, a major part of KDE.
You can track the progress we are making on these meeting minutes through here: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/30
This is a very sad news that you are going to deprecate KOffice, a major part of KDE.
We can reconsider this at the next meeting. Can you please provide a rationale for keeping koffice, why it is better than LibreOffice with TDE integration, who still uses it, etc.?
Thanks!
Tim
On Monday 20 June 2011 00:28:45 Timothy Pearson wrote:
This is a very sad news that you are going to deprecate KOffice, a major part of KDE.
We can reconsider this at the next meeting. Can you please provide a rationale for keeping koffice, why it is better than LibreOffice with TDE integration, who still uses it, etc.?
Basically there is no other office suite that is so closely integrated with KDE/Trinity. Aside spreadsheet and word processor KOffice includes graphical apps such as Krita, Kivio etc to which Open Office has no alternatives (or do you suggest using GIMP?).
Removing KOffice is equal to removing a half of KDE apps. Seriously guys I thought you hold vector on improvement and expansion (i.e. adding more apps) rather than removing the core KDE components.
If KOffice is removed then there is no reason why other apps should be added to Trinity. KDE:KDE3 repository currently has more than 420 KDE3 packages but adding them to Trinity would have no reason if KOffice is removed (as KOffice has better quality and better integrated than most of them).
Even more, if KOfiice is removed then there is no reason why other Trinity components should not be removed as well by the same logic (AmaroK, Kaffeine, even Konqueror).
Concerning Open/Libre Office as you know it has only basic KDE3 integration which can be removed any moment. Libre Office team for example is currently discussing radical change of the user interface which may lead to removal of Qt3 styles support.
Also by your logic the Gnome team should kill Gnumeric and Abiword because Open Office is better?
On Monday 20 June 2011 00:28:45 Timothy Pearson wrote:
This is a very sad news that you are going to deprecate KOffice, a
major
part of KDE.
We can reconsider this at the next meeting. Can you please provide a rationale for keeping koffice, why it is better than LibreOffice with TDE integration, who still uses it, etc.?
Basically there is no other office suite that is so closely integrated with KDE/Trinity. Aside spreadsheet and word processor KOffice includes graphical apps such as Krita, Kivio etc to which Open Office has no alternatives (or do you suggest using GIMP?).
OK, this is a valid point. I wish you had made it to our meeting; by bringing this up you probably would have killed off the deprecation suggestion very quickly.
Removing KOffice is equal to removing a half of KDE apps. Seriously guys I thought you hold vector on improvement and expansion (i.e. adding more apps) rather than removing the core KDE components.
See above. koffice is not half of all apps though.
If KOffice is removed then there is no reason why other apps should be added to Trinity. KDE:KDE3 repository currently has more than 420 KDE3 packages but adding them to Trinity would have no reason if KOffice is removed (as KOffice has better quality and better integrated than most of them).
In certain areas. In others (kword and such) the quality is inferior.
Even more, if KOfiice is removed then there is no reason why other Trinity components should not be removed as well by the same logic (AmaroK, Kaffeine, even Konqueror).
No. Some of the koffice components have direct and better replacements, such as kword.
Concerning Open/Libre Office as you know it has only basic KDE3 integration which can be removed any moment. Libre Office team for example is currently discussing radical change of the user interface which may lead to removal of Qt3 styles support.
LibreOffice is more than happy to accept TDE integration support.
As of now, consider koffice deprecation cancelled.
Tim
On Monday 20 June 2011 01:13:49 Timothy Pearson wrote:
If KOffice is removed then there is no reason why other apps should be added to Trinity. KDE:KDE3 repository currently has more than 420 KDE3 packages but adding them to Trinity would have no reason if KOffice is removed (as KOffice has better quality and better integrated than most of them).
In certain areas. In others (kword and such) the quality is inferior.
I think there is no other general-purpose word processor for KDE3 other than KWord. It is unique in its class. I have Scribus, Lyx, TexMaker, PDF Editor in KDE:KDE3 but they all implement different functionality and less closely integrated with KDE.
Even more, if KOfiice is removed then there is no reason why other Trinity components should not be removed as well by the same logic (AmaroK, Kaffeine, even Konqueror).
No. Some of the koffice components have direct and better replacements, such as kword.
This is completely subjective. One can argue that Amarok 1.4 has better replacements Amarok 2 and Clementine. It can be argued that Konqueror can be replaced with Rekonq and Dolphin etc.
It is also quite arguable whether say OOo Calc is better than KSpread: opening a spreadsheet in Calc can take minutes while in KSpread only one or two seconds.
Concerning Open/Libre Office as you know it has only basic KDE3 integration which can be removed any moment. Libre Office team for example is currently discussing radical change of the user interface which may lead to removal of Qt3 styles support.
LibreOffice is more than happy to accept TDE integration support.
Re-implementing Qt3 support after the change may require huge effort while LibreOffice team is not commited to do it themselves. Do you feel capable to re-implement interface integration yourselves even if your patches will be happily accepted?
On Monday 20 June 2011 01:13:49 Timothy Pearson wrote:
If KOffice is removed then there is no reason why other apps should be added to Trinity. KDE:KDE3 repository currently has more than 420 KDE3 packages but adding them to Trinity
would
have no reason if KOffice is removed (as KOffice has better quality and better
integrated
than most of them).
In certain areas. In others (kword and such) the quality is inferior.
I think there is no other general-purpose word processor for KDE3 other than KWord. It is unique in its class. I have Scribus, Lyx, TexMaker, PDF Editor in KDE:KDE3 but they all implement different functionality and less closely integrated with KDE.
This is completely subjective. I would argue that OpenOffice.org is unmatched for the way it blends in to TDE and reads/writes all the major document formats nearly flawlessly.
Even more, if KOfiice is removed then there is no reason why other
Trinity
components should not be removed as well by the same logic (AmaroK, Kaffeine, even Konqueror).
No. Some of the koffice components have direct and better replacements, such as kword.
This is completely subjective. One can argue that Amarok 1.4 has better replacements Amarok 2 and Clementine. It can be argued that Konqueror can be replaced with Rekonq and Dolphin etc.
No, because in those cases the feature set did not include features that were present in the original applications.
It is also quite arguable whether say OOo Calc is better than KSpread: opening a spreadsheet in Calc can take minutes while in KSpread only one or two seconds.
Concerning Open/Libre Office as you know it has only basic KDE3 integration which can be removed any moment. Libre Office team for example is currently discussing radical change of the user interface which may lead to removal of Qt3 styles support.
LibreOffice is more than happy to accept TDE integration support.
Re-implementing Qt3 support after the change may require huge effort while LibreOffice team is not commited to do it themselves. Do you feel capable to re-implement interface integration yourselves even if your patches will be happily accepted?
Actually, yes! I have done it before with other apps and to be honest it is not difficult at all.
Tim
On Monday 20 June 2011 01:38:41 Timothy Pearson wrote:
I think there is no other general-purpose word processor for KDE3 other than KWord. It is unique in its class. I have Scribus, Lyx, TexMaker, PDF Editor in KDE:KDE3 but they all implement different functionality and less closely integrated with KDE.
This is completely subjective. I would argue that OpenOffice.org is unmatched for the way it blends in to TDE and reads/writes all the major document formats nearly flawlessly.
We were talking about KDE:KDE3 repository. As I said if KOffice removed there is no reason to include any other KDE3 word processor in Trinity because all of those apps are inferior.
Even more, if KOfiice is removed then there is no reason why other
Trinity
components should not be removed as well by the same logic (AmaroK, Kaffeine, even Konqueror).
No. Some of the koffice components have direct and better replacements, such as kword.
This is completely subjective. One can argue that Amarok 1.4 has better replacements Amarok 2 and Clementine. It can be argued that Konqueror can be replaced with Rekonq and Dolphin etc.
No, because in those cases the feature set did not include features that were present in the original applications.
Clementine is a direct continuation of Amarok. And in any way, as I already said, it can be similarly argued that OpenOffice does not have all features of KOffice.
It is also quite arguable whether say OOo Calc is better than KSpread: opening a spreadsheet in Calc can take minutes while in KSpread only one or two seconds.
Concerning Open/Libre Office as you know it has only basic KDE3 integration which can be removed any moment. Libre Office team for example is currently discussing radical change of the user interface which may lead to removal of Qt3 styles support.
LibreOffice is more than happy to accept TDE integration support.
Re-implementing Qt3 support after the change may require huge effort while LibreOffice team is not commited to do it themselves. Do you feel capable to re-implement interface integration yourselves even if your patches will be happily accepted?
Actually, yes! I have done it before with other apps and to be honest it is not difficult at all.
About what sort of integration do you speak now?
On Monday 20 June 2011 01:55:35 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Clementine is a direct continuation of Amarok
And KDE4 is a direct continuation of KDE3. Please be careful here.
Not as direct as Clementine. But yes, one can argue that Trinity is not necessary and work should be abandoned based on the same arguments as removal of KOffice.
About what sort of integration do you speak now?
dbus-qt and poppler-qt for starters.
Are you going to add this kind of integration to Libre Office?
On 19 June 2011 18:50, Ilya Chernykh anixxsus@gmail.com wrote:
Not as direct as Clementine. But yes, one can argue that Trinity is not necessary and work should be abandoned based on the same arguments as removal of KOffice.
I don't see where you are going with this. Everything you are saying isn't really alluding to anything concrete. If it is obvious that your KDE:KDE3 is so far superior, why are you bothering time with us?
Calvin Morrison
On Monday 20 June 2011 02:54:37 Calvin Morrison wrote:
Not as direct as Clementine. But yes, one can argue that Trinity is not necessary and work should be abandoned based on the same arguments as removal of KOffice.
I don't see where you are going with this. Everything you are saying isn't really alluding to anything concrete. If it is obvious that your KDE:KDE3 is so far superior, why are you bothering time with us?
Here I did not mean abandoning Trinity in favor of other KDE3 project seems you have problems with understanding the meaning of the text.
On Monday 20 June 2011 01:38:41 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Actually, yes! I have done it before with other apps and to be honest it is not difficult at all.
If it so easy why not to start with Firefox for example? What prevents one from adding KDE3/Qt3 support to it?
On Monday 20 June 2011 01:38:41 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Actually, yes! I have done it before with other apps and to be honest it is not difficult at all.
If it so easy why not to start with Firefox for example? What prevents one from adding KDE3/Qt3 support to it?
It already has that in the form of a plugin module. Please look in the Trinity source repository; you will find kgtk-* which provides TDE/Qt3 theming for GTK applications.
Tim
On Monday 20 June 2011 01:53:50 Timothy Pearson wrote:
It already has that in the form of a plugin module. Please look in the Trinity source repository; you will find kgtk-* which provides TDE/Qt3 theming for GTK applications.
It exists in KDE:KDE3 as well, but it is not a proper integration.
On 19/06/2011 22:28, Timothy Pearson wrote:
You can track the progress we are making on these meeting minutes through here: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/30
This is a very sad news that you are going to deprecate KOffice, a major part of KDE.
Hi,
Maybe we can see this as "koffice is a part of the free software ecosystem" (and is surely a good software too). But supporting koffice in TDE might be a lot of work, so this is really a matter of priority/human capacity instead of subjective battle, isn't it?
I wonder if there a clear Trinity manifesto out there? (except the about page http://www.trinitydesktop.org/about.php)
Nicolas
Sad but a mayor reality, the solution maybe its port kofice 2 brand, but curent work in TDE its a lot of, so if more people colaborate with devel team in TDE and some people join to mantain or port koffice, its better.
currently TDE its focused on defines way of work and progress port of portion of kde3 , so currenly porting to cmake. So currenly its a lot of work..
On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Nicolas Bercher nbercher@yahoo.fr wrote:
On 19/06/2011 22:28, Timothy Pearson wrote:
You can track the progress we are making on these meeting minutes
through here: http://trinity.etherpad.**trinitydesktop.org/30http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/30
This is a very sad news that you are going to deprecate KOffice, a major part of KDE.
Hi,
Maybe we can see this as "koffice is a part of the free software ecosystem" (and is surely a good software too). But supporting koffice in TDE might be a lot of work, so this is really a matter of priority/human capacity instead of subjective battle, isn't it?
I wonder if there a clear Trinity manifesto out there? (except the about page http://www.trinitydesktop.org/**about.phphttp://www.trinitydesktop.org/about.php )
Nicolas
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On 19 June 2011 16:20, Ilya Chernykh anixxsus@gmail.com wrote:
You can track the progress we are making on these meeting minutes through here: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/30
This is a very sad news that you are going to deprecate KOffice, a major part of KDE.
Honestly?
there are many better solutions to KOffice, and maintaining and ENTIRE office suite is enough work on top of an entire Desktop Environment! I think we are going to instead make patches for libreoffice integration.
Another option may be Calligra in the future (current version of koffice). they might be moving away from KDE4's kdelibs and going just qt, which would open up that for us to use.
Calvin Morrison
On Monday 20 June 2011 00:28:49 Calvin Morrison wrote:
You can track the progress we are making on these meeting minutes through here: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/30
This is a very sad news that you are going to deprecate KOffice, a major part of KDE.
Honestly?
there are many better solutions to KOffice, and maintaining and ENTIRE office suite is enough work
Enough work? I suppose you know what do you talk about? Did you try that work and found it too difficult? I am asking seriously, because in KDE:KDE3 I did not touch KOffice for a year or more. Or maybe maintaining in Trinity is more difficult?
on top of an entire Desktop Environment! I think we are going to instead make patches for libreoffice integration.
Which patches exactly?
Another option may be Calligra in the future (current version of koffice). they might be moving away from KDE4's kdelibs and going just qt, which would open up that for us to use.
First Trinity should be finally ported to Qt4. But I doubt Calligra will ever drop dependence on kdelibs because pure Qt cannot provide the necessary level of components integration.
On Monday 20 June 2011 00:28:49 Calvin Morrison wrote:
You can track the progress we are making on these meeting minutes
through here:
This is a very sad news that you are going to deprecate KOffice, a
major part of KDE.
Honestly?
there are many better solutions to KOffice, and maintaining and ENTIRE office suite is enough work
Enough work? I suppose you know what do you talk about? Did you try that work and found it too difficult? I am asking seriously, because in KDE:KDE3 I did not touch KOffice for a year or more. Or maybe maintaining in Trinity is more difficult?
I know as I have worked on Trinity for years now. The problem is not just letting it sit in the repository, the problem is in enabling TQt4 support for it. If you look at the Trinity roadmap, 3.5.13 is supposed to include full TQt4 support (which will bring Qt4 support once TQt4 has been fully stabilized). koffice is a very large code base that will take a significant amount of time to port to TQt4, even with the automated tools I have written to assist with that task.
I hope this helps some.
Tim
On Monday 20 June 2011 01:18:20 Timothy Pearson wrote:
I know as I have worked on Trinity for years now. The problem is not just letting it sit in the repository, the problem is in enabling TQt4 support for it. If you look at the Trinity roadmap, 3.5.13 is supposed to include full TQt4 support (which will bring Qt4 support once TQt4 has been fully stabilized). koffice is a very large code base that will take a significant amount of time to port to TQt4, even with the automated tools I have written to assist with that task.
I see. But this points to a greater problem: aside KOffice there are still a large base of KDE3 applications which are still not ported to Tqinterface. They are not in your repository, but they exist. Rejecting them will make TDE a not-so functional desktop at least until full Qt4 integration is over.
And, btw, it honestly thought that you already completed Tqt porting of core KDE parts.
On Monday 20 June 2011 01:18:20 Timothy Pearson wrote:
I know as I have worked on Trinity for years now. The problem is not just letting it sit in the repository, the problem is in enabling TQt4 support for it. If you look at the Trinity roadmap, 3.5.13 is supposed to include full TQt4 support (which will bring Qt4 support once TQt4 has been fully stabilized). koffice is a very large code base that will take a significant amount of time to port to TQt4, even with the automated tools I have written to assist with that task.
I see. But this points to a greater problem: aside KOffice there are still a large base of KDE3 applications which are still not ported to Tqinterface. They are not in your repository, but they exist. Rejecting them will make TDE a not-so functional desktop at least until full Qt4 integration is over.
And, btw, it honestly thought that you already completed Tqt porting of core KDE parts.
koffice is not core!
On Monday 20 June 2011 01:52:47 Timothy Pearson wrote:
And, btw, it honestly thought that you already completed Tqt porting of core KDE parts.
koffice is not core!
This depends on the perspective. KDE:KDE3 has much more applications written for KDE3 and from this point of view all KDE3 components tat are part of the official distribution look as core.
On Monday 20 June 2011 01:52:47 Timothy Pearson wrote:
And, btw, it honestly thought that you already completed Tqt porting
of
core KDE parts.
koffice is not core!
This depends on the perspective. KDE:KDE3 has much more applications written for KDE3 and from this point of view all KDE3 components tat are part of the official distribution look as core.
"Much more applications". Curious then that the (large) Trinity userbase has not run into issues due to missing applications in Trinity itself.
I submit that KDE:KDE3 is likely chock full of practically useless, stagnant applications that very few people even knew existed back when KDE3 was in use.
What are you doing to keep KDE3 up to date? What will you do when Qt3 finally is completely useless/uncompilable on modern desktops? How are you improving KDE3 by adding new features? From what I can tell the KDE:KDE3 maintainers are content to maintain a codebase that is not only cluttered, but is slowly growing stale and irrelevant, just so that they can claim to have "more appliations", which in and of itself is of dubious value.
Not to be rude, but I have not seen much factual information from you, just a lot of unsubstantiated and/or dubious claims. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Timothy Pearson Trinity Desktop Project
I think it's not so much that Trinity doesn't like KOffice, and more-so that they have to make some tough decisions regarding what projects to spend their limited development resources on. I'm sure they'd be happy for people to adopt other KDE apps. :-) If you can maintain (or pay someone to maintain) KOffice, I'm sure they'll be happy to get help, and that they'll be able to "save" another KDE app. As it is, they need to focus on the projects they think will be the most useful to people in general/themselves in particular. Personally, I'd rather the core and konqueror, etc are stable, efficient, and converted to Qt4 sooner, rather than having KOffice support, but that's just my opinion. I mean, I'd prefer both, but such is life.
Lukas Korsika Not Affiliated With Trinity Desktop Project
I think it's not so much that Trinity doesn't like KOffice, and more-so that they have to make some tough decisions regarding what projects to spend their limited development resources on. I'm sure they'd be happy for people to adopt other KDE apps. :-) If you can maintain (or pay someone to maintain) KOffice, I'm sure they'll be happy to get help, and that they'll be able to "save" another KDE app. As it is, they need to focus on the projects they think will be the most useful to people in general/themselves in particular. Personally, I'd rather the core and konqueror, etc are stable, efficient, and converted to Qt4 sooner, rather than having KOffice support, but that's just my opinion. I mean, I'd prefer both, but such is life.
Lukas Korsika Not Affiliated With Trinity Desktop Project
I agree with Lukas here. Unfortunately we can't just drop koffice, as there is at least one application within it that cannot be replaced, but the overall goal was to save as much of the KDE3 experience as possible. Polluting the repository with obsolete applications that perform functions that are no longer needed in the real world is a sure fire way to kill a project, unless there are so many developers attached to the project that it can absorb the loss of time. Sadly, in the OSS world (and even in corporations such as Microsoft), this is not the case.
I do not mean to promote one repository over another, but I would appreciate it if the two main KDE3 / KDE3 fork repositories could coexist without sniping at one another with comments about how much better one is, or how disappointing it is that a decision was made, especially when such decisions are made with the intent of increasing the value and stability of this style of desktop environment.
Tim
On Monday 20 June 2011 03:39:56 Timothy Pearson wrote:
I do not mean to promote one repository over another, but I would appreciate it if the two main KDE3 / KDE3 fork repositories could coexist without sniping at one another with comments about how much better one is, or how disappointing it is that a decision was made, especially when such decisions are made with the intent of increasing the value and stability of this style of desktop environment.
Sorry I thought I had the right to express disappointment with deprcation of KOffice.
On Monday 20 June 2011 03:39:56 Timothy Pearson wrote:
I do not mean to promote one repository over another, but I would appreciate it if the two main KDE3 / KDE3 fork repositories could coexist without sniping at one another with comments about how much better one is, or how disappointing it is that a decision was made, especially when such decisions are made with the intent of increasing the value and stability of this style of desktop environment.
Sorry I thought I had the right to express disappointment with deprcation of KOffice.
You do. The only thing I would ask is that you rationally explain why it is a bad idea, which you did in the first part of your message. You will notice that I immediately halted the deprecation based on that part alone.
It is NOT our intent to drop anything unless there is a very good reason. Your mention of krita, etc. invalidated the assumptions under which we were ready to drop koffice. There is a reason that the decision was made during a meeting, so that people such as yourself could come and express your views or bring to light things that we may have overlooked. As you know, the codebase is large, and it is easy to overlook something that is important to another individual.
Tim
On Monday 20 June 2011 03:39:56 Timothy Pearson wrote:
I agree with Lukas here. Unfortunately we can't just drop koffice, as there is at least one application within it that cannot be replaced, but the overall goal was to save as much of the KDE3 experience as possible. Polluting the repository with obsolete applications that perform functions that are no longer needed in the real world
Btw, did you try to backport export/import filters from KDE4's KOffice? They are fairly independent from the rest and already in cmake.
I would have to agree with Ilya Chernykh. While I do understand the undertaking required to keep it, life has shown me, nothing worth while, is ever easy. Becoming dependant on outside office suites, which are now becoming fragmented (project fragmentation is FOSS's kryptonite) is unwise.
I do use koffice, its has a lot of advantages OOo and its off shoots don't. Too many to go into but avid users know.
Its something that needs to be considered patiently. Hast makes waste and all that rot.
Thanks for listen (or reading rather)
Kate Draven
On 6/20/11, Ilya Chernykh anixxsus@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday 20 June 2011 03:39:56 Timothy Pearson wrote:
I agree with Lukas here. Unfortunately we can't just drop koffice, as there is at least one application within it that cannot be replaced, but the overall goal was to save as much of the KDE3 experience as possible. Polluting the repository with obsolete applications that perform functions that are no longer needed in the real world
Btw, did you try to backport export/import filters from KDE4's KOffice? They are fairly independent from the rest and already in cmake.
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On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Katheryne Draven borgqueen4@gmail.comwrote:
I would have to agree with Ilya Chernykh. While I do understand the undertaking required to keep it, life has shown me, nothing worth while, is ever easy. Becoming dependant on outside office suites, which are now becoming fragmented (project fragmentation is FOSS's kryptonite) is unwise.
That is not an issue provided that they are open to integration patches, IMHO. One always has the chance to fork that suite, integrate the patches and supply ir to whoever wants that.
I do use koffice, its has a lot of advantages OOo and its off shoots don't. Too many to go into but avid users know.
I personally never was able to use KOffice 3.5. It didn't open any files, the interface was a mess, it simply didn't work ok. The only app I ever used regularly was Krita - which was quite good - though I mostly replaced it with GIMP nowadays, even though I can install Krita with no problems.
I would very much like to hear what is so great about KOffice 3, as LibreOffice is not perfect but I haven't truly found anything better. Otherwise, my personal opinion on the matter is very much like of all others. What we would gain with integration and consistent user interfaces doesn't make up for the lack of features and file support under KOffice.
Best regards, Tiago
Its something that needs to be considered patiently. Hast makes waste
and all that rot.
Thanks for listen (or reading rather)
Kate Draven
On 6/20/11, Ilya Chernykh anixxsus@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday 20 June 2011 03:39:56 Timothy Pearson wrote:
I agree with Lukas here. Unfortunately we can't just drop koffice, as there is at least one application within it that cannot be replaced, but the overall goal was to save as much of the KDE3 experience as possible. Polluting the repository with obsolete applications that perform
functions
that are no longer needed in the real world
Btw, did you try to backport export/import filters from KDE4's KOffice? They are fairly independent from the rest and already in cmake.
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On Wednesday 22 June 2011 06:54:36 Tiago Marques wrote:
I would have to agree with Ilya Chernykh. While I do understand the undertaking required to keep it, life has shown me, nothing worth while, is ever easy. Becoming dependant on outside office suites, which are now becoming fragmented (project fragmentation is FOSS's kryptonite) is unwise.
That is not an issue provided that they are open to integration patches, IMHO.
I still yet have to see at least one integration patch to Open Office by the Trinity team.
One always has the chance to fork that suite, integrate the patches and supply ir to whoever wants that.
Oh yes. This team is so huge that in can even fork Open Office.
On Wednesday 22 June 2011 06:54:36 Tiago Marques wrote:
I would have to agree with Ilya Chernykh. While I do understand the undertaking required to keep it, life has shown me, nothing worth while, is ever easy. Becoming dependant on outside office suites, which are now becoming fragmented (project fragmentation is FOSS's kryptonite) is unwise.
That is not an issue provided that they are open to integration patches, IMHO.
I still yet have to see at least one integration patch to Open Office by the Trinity team.
So far the upstream KDE3 integration has been working just fine with no changes. And patches will be submitted to LibreOffice as well, when they are necessary.
One always has the chance to fork that suite, integrate the patches and supply ir to whoever wants that.
Oh yes. This team is so huge that in can even fork Open Office.
And this is just plain silly. Of course we are not going to fork OpenOffice!
What was probably meant was that we can supply patches for OpenOffice/LibreOffice and build binaries ourselves if the main distros will not build it with TDE support included. That is a very different concept than a fork.
Tim
Hi all,
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Timothy Pearson < kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net> wrote:
On Wednesday 22 June 2011 06:54:36 Tiago Marques wrote:
I would have to agree with Ilya Chernykh. While I do understand the undertaking required to keep it, life has shown me, nothing worth while, is ever easy. Becoming dependant on outside office suites, which are now becoming fragmented (project fragmentation is FOSS's kryptonite) is unwise.
That is not an issue provided that they are open to integration patches, IMHO.
I still yet have to see at least one integration patch to Open Office by the Trinity team.
So far the upstream KDE3 integration has been working just fine with no changes. And patches will be submitted to LibreOffice as well, when they are necessary.
Which, though far from perfect, is good enough IMHO, given the state of open source office suites.
I'd love to have the free time to take KOffice and make it an even better suite than LibreOffice - unfortunately I don't have the time, nor does anyone else from what I was able to read from this thread so far. One can also argue that, despite the benefits of high integration, the office suite war is not where a good linux desktop environment wants to be part of. Consider that it is hard enough for non-technical users to become users of LibreOffice, let alone of an "obscure" office suite that, was rather sub-par(again, last time I checked). Same for browsers.
It is rather pointless to be pursuing an independent browser when the ones already available(especially Chrome) integrates well enough with xdg utilities to provide a rather seamless usage experience. The only lacking points, much more easily fixable than maintaing a full, modern web browser, are theming and file dialogs. Consider how pointless it is that most people end up never touching browsers like Epiphany or Konqueror. It has taken Google at least two years to bring Chrome up to speed with Firefox, at least in features and porting to other OSs.
One must face the reality that even after a lot of work is put into a browser, and it's good and all, most people still want to use what they are familiar with, something that for a project as small as Trinity has repercussions on the rest of what still is an excellent desktop environment. Same is applicable to office suites - it is hard enough to get people to send you ODF files.
My personal opinion is that it is better to focus on overall usability - we're not Apple, nor Google, so don't expect relying only on DE + Kernel for your daily needs, even though that would be a wonderful goal for this project if it ever grows that big.
One always has the chance to fork that suite, integrate the patches and supply ir to whoever wants that.
Oh yes. This team is so huge that in can even fork Open Office.
And this is just plain silly. Of course we are not going to fork OpenOffice!
What was probably meant was that we can supply patches for OpenOffice/LibreOffice and build binaries ourselves if the main distros will not build it with TDE support included. That is a very different concept than a fork.
Precisely, that's what I meant. Thanks Tim.
Best regards, Tiago
Tim
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On Wednesday 22 June 2011 19:20:51 Timothy Pearson wrote:
I would have to agree with Ilya Chernykh. While I do understand the undertaking required to keep it, life has shown me, nothing worth while, is ever easy. Becoming dependant on outside office suites, which are now becoming fragmented (project fragmentation is FOSS's kryptonite) is unwise.
That is not an issue provided that they are open to integration patches, IMHO.
I still yet have to see at least one integration patch to Open Office by the Trinity team.
So far the upstream KDE3 integration has been working just fine with no changes.
Not quite correct. The file picker was broken for a long time. And Trinity did nothing to patch it until openSUSE people fixed it finally.
The integration with KDE3 styles is still far from perfect.
Don't you think you overestimate your abilities?
And patches will be submitted to LibreOffice as well, when they are necessary.
One always has the chance to fork that suite, integrate the patches and supply ir to whoever wants that.
Oh yes. This team is so huge that in can even fork Open Office.
And this is just plain silly. Of course we are not going to fork OpenOffice!
What was probably meant was that we can supply patches for OpenOffice/LibreOffice and build binaries ourselves if the main distros will not build it with TDE support included. That is a very different concept than a fork.
As I already said LibreOffice now considers a radical change in interface. This means the support for Qt3 styles could require a complete rewrite.
On Wednesday 22 June 2011 19:20:51 Timothy Pearson wrote:
I would have to agree with Ilya Chernykh. While I do understand
the
undertaking required to keep it, life has shown me, nothing worth while, is ever easy. Becoming dependant on outside office suites, which are now becoming fragmented (project fragmentation is FOSS's kryptonite) is unwise.
That is not an issue provided that they are open to integration
patches,
IMHO.
I still yet have to see at least one integration patch to Open Office
by
the Trinity team.
So far the upstream KDE3 integration has been working just fine with no changes.
Not quite correct. The file picker was broken for a long time. And Trinity did nothing to patch it until openSUSE people fixed it finally.
Interesting that I never noticed a problem with it (???)
The integration with KDE3 styles is still far from perfect.
Don't you think you overestimate your abilities?
No, not really. However I think you do overestimate yours...
And patches will be submitted to LibreOffice as well, when they are necessary.
One always has the chance to fork that suite, integrate the patches and supply ir to whoever wants that.
Oh yes. This team is so huge that in can even fork Open Office.
And this is just plain silly. Of course we are not going to fork OpenOffice!
What was probably meant was that we can supply patches for OpenOffice/LibreOffice and build binaries ourselves if the main distros will not build it with TDE support included. That is a very different concept than a fork.
As I already said LibreOffice now considers a radical change in interface. This means the support for Qt3 styles could require a complete rewrite.
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<snip>
The integration with KDE3 styles is still far from perfect.
Don't you think you overestimate your abilities?
No, not really. However I think you do overestimate yours...
Specifically, how are you providing Qt4 compatibility? How are you improving KOffice to properly read and write standard .ods/.odt file formats? Have you fixed any of the couple hundred bugs on the Trinity bugtracker? All I see you doing is packaging other people's source and patching minor compilation issues, without reporting the patches upstream via the bugtracker.
There is nothing wrong with having two different positions here--the Trinity project is a FOSS project, tasked with new development, general maintenance, bug control, and project direction management (that includes deciding what is part of the project and what is not), and you are a distribution packager/maintainer, tasked with making upstream FOSS projects work properly on your distribution. Am I incorrect?
On Friday 24 June 2011 04:19:52 Timothy Pearson wrote:
The integration with KDE3 styles is still far from perfect.
Don't you think you overestimate your abilities?
No, not really. However I think you do overestimate yours...
Specifically, how are you providing Qt4 compatibility?
I ever claimed I patched KDE3 for Qt4 support?
How are you improving KOffice to properly read and write standard .ods/.odt file formats?
I ever claimed that I patched KOffice for ODF support? By the way, if you succeed to make KOffice to open ODF files, please let me know.
Have you fixed any of the couple hundred bugs on the Trinity bugtracker?
Sorry never looked into Trinity bugtracker in search for bugreports. I fixed some bugs which I personally encountered and sent you the patches if they were connected with the KDE3 source.
All I see you doing is packaging other people's source and patching minor compilation issues, without reporting the patches upstream via the bugtracker.
I reported the patches which I made here in the list. Of course I can do it using the bugtracker if you wish.
There is nothing wrong with having two different positions here--the Trinity project is a FOSS project, tasked with new development, general maintenance, bug control, and project direction management (that includes deciding what is part of the project and what is not), and you are a distribution packager/maintainer, tasked with making upstream FOSS projects work properly on your distribution. Am I incorrect?
You are correct. So what?
On Friday 24 June 2011 04:19:52 Timothy Pearson wrote:
The integration with KDE3 styles is still far from perfect.
Don't you think you overestimate your abilities?
No, not really. However I think you do overestimate yours...
Specifically, how are you providing Qt4 compatibility?
I ever claimed I patched KDE3 for Qt4 support?
How are you improving KOffice to properly read and write standard .ods/.odt file formats?
I ever claimed that I patched KOffice for ODF support? By the way, if you succeed to make KOffice to open ODF files, please let me know.
Have you fixed any of the couple hundred bugs on the Trinity bugtracker?
Sorry never looked into Trinity bugtracker in search for bugreports. I fixed some bugs which I personally encountered and sent you the patches if they were connected with the KDE3 source.
All I see you doing is packaging other people's source and patching minor compilation issues, without reporting the patches upstream via the bugtracker.
I reported the patches which I made here in the list. Of course I can do it using the bugtracker if you wish.
There is nothing wrong with having two different positions here--the Trinity project is a FOSS project, tasked with new development, general maintenance, bug control, and project direction management (that includes deciding what is part of the project and what is not), and you are a distribution packager/maintainer, tasked with making upstream FOSS projects work properly on your distribution. Am I incorrect?
You are correct. So what?
The point of all of the above is to establish who is in control of the Trinity desktop project. Personally I am sick and tired of hearing that things "cannot be done"--that is merely what the KDE4 devs have started as propaganda to promote their new way of doing things.
Rather than criticizing almost every decision we have made, please try to help where possible and make KDE3/TDE a better desktop environment. If you see a potential problem, why don't you see what the best alternatives are from your perspective and mention them on this list, or even try to put in some work towards fixing the problem?
We have enough idle critics out on the Internet; please don't be one on this mailing list.
Thanks!
Tim
<snip>
Rather than criticizing almost every decision we have made, please try to help where possible and make KDE3/TDE a better desktop environment. If you see a potential problem, why don't you see what the best alternatives are from your perspective and mention them on this list, or even try to put in some work towards fixing the problem?
We have enough idle critics out on the Internet; please don't be one on this mailing list.
Just to clarify, if you see a potential problem with the project please feel free to bring it up on this list. What has really struck a raw nerve here is the promotion of the apparently dead-end KDE:KDE3 as a real world alternative to the Trinity desktop project, combined with the rejection/criticism of our ideas with absolutely no alternatives presented or suggestions made.
Most FOSS projects establish their leadership based on who has contributed the most towards advancing the goals of the project. We are aiming to be somewhat different by listening to our users and adjusting our plans accordingly, but please realize that all of us are working on this project for free in our spare time, and therefore may still have different priorities than yours. If you really want to see something done, as in all FOSS projects, the best way is to do it yourself, or pay someone to do it for you.
I hope this clarifies things a bit, and I hope that this thread, which has long outlived its useful purpose, can now be put to rest.
Tim
On Friday 24 June 2011 05:02:59 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Just to clarify, if you see a potential problem with the project please feel free to bring it up on this list. What has really struck a raw nerve here is the promotion of the apparently dead-end KDE:KDE3 as a real world alternative to the Trinity desktop project,
From a user's point of view currently it is an alternative. But you are incorrect: I never made any promoting, marketing etc here. KDE3 in openSUSE just works and if somebody will package Trinity in OBS it will be excellent.
combined with the rejection/criticism of our ideas with absolutely no alternatives presented or suggestions made.
Well an alternative to dropping KOffice is porting ODF support from KDE4's KOffice. Do you like this idea? You said you have much of resources even to reimplement KDE3 support in Libre Office if it completely changes its interface, so adding ODF would be just as to swat a moquito, won't it?
On Friday 24 June 2011 05:02:59 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Just to clarify, if you see a potential problem with the project please feel free to bring it up on this list. What has really struck a raw nerve here is the promotion of the apparently dead-end KDE:KDE3 as a real world alternative to the Trinity desktop project,
From a user's point of view currently it is an alternative. But you are incorrect: I never made any promoting, marketing etc here. KDE3 in openSUSE just works and if somebody will package Trinity in OBS it will be excellent.
Then please be careful with your word choice. What you have written here in the past has, from a native English speaker's point of view, sounded very antagonistic and competitive.
combined with the rejection/criticism of our ideas with absolutely no alternatives presented or suggestions made.
Well an alternative to dropping KOffice is porting ODF support from KDE4's KOffice. Do you like this idea? You said you have much of resources even to reimplement KDE3 support in Libre Office if it completely changes its interface, so adding ODF would be just as to swat a moquito, won't it?
Here is another example of what I mentioned above. Whether you realize it or not, the way this statement is phrased it is rather insulting. How an average English-speaking individual might read this would be as follows:
"Since you claim to have so many resources (which I really don't think you do) then do what I suggested a long time ago, since I think it is terribly easy and cannot understand why it is so very hard for you to do."
Is that really what you meant? If not then please say so! I had not considered that there may be a language issue here.
To answer your question, yes, I think that is a good idea. Would you like to try your hand at it? I probably will not get around to doing so until the entire TQt4 port is complete and some of the open bugs have been addressed.
The project is currently somewhat swamped; once the TQt4 port is complete and CMake support has been added, we have enough developer resources to keep things moving along quickly. However, we are still in the middle of those two operations and so are not able to absorb as many of the miscellaneous tasks (such as gcc 4.6 compilation repairs, .odf support, etc.) as you or I would like. Any help is much appreciated during this transitional period.
Tim
"The point of all of the above is to establish who is in control of the Trinity desktop project. Personally I am sick and tired of hearing that things "cannot be done"--that is merely what the KDE4 devs have started as propaganda to promote their new way of doing things."
This is true, which is why I've left all kde4 project nor will I support any kde4 distros. Also why I'm reluctant to join any dev group period.
When I said I would continue to use my Ark Linux 3.5.10 setup, I was also told it "cannot be done" by the kde4 devs I was working with. I'm still using my AL setup very productively with no real drawbacks.
"Rather than criticizing almost every decision we have made, please try to help where possible and make KDE3/TDE a better desktop environment. If you see a potential problem, why don't you see what the best alternatives are from your perspective and mention them on this list, or even try to put in some work towards fixing the problem?"
There are times I disagree with something, however it doesn't mean I don't explore it. Perhaps I'm wrong... Its never a waste of time, if something is learned from it. So I have to agree. Should TDE choose to dump koffice in favour of OOo or the like, then let it be. Perhaps it will work, if it doesn't I KNOW, the devs will see this and rethink themselves. To date no one has show themselves to have a poor grip on reality.
"We have enough idle critics out on the Internet; please don't be one on this mailing list."
Agreed. We are better than this. To date, the only other project that hears all the voices, is Unity. Ultimately I believe it will put both project well ahead of the game. But such things take time and patience.
I hope I haven't made matter worse by adding my two pea. It just saddens me to see such strife where none need be.
Cheers,
Kate
On Friday 24 June 2011 06:18:02 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Then please be careful with your word choice. What you have written here in the past has, from a native English speaker's point of view, sounded very antagonistic and competitive.
combined with the rejection/criticism of our ideas with absolutely no alternatives presented or suggestions made.
Well an alternative to dropping KOffice is porting ODF support from KDE4's KOffice. Do you like this idea? You said you have much of resources even to reimplement KDE3 support in Libre Office if it completely changes its interface, so adding ODF would be just as to swat a moquito, won't it?
Here is another example of what I mentioned above. Whether you realize it or not, the way this statement is phrased it is rather insulting. How an average English-speaking individual might read this would be as follows:
"Since you claim to have so many resources (which I really don't think you do) then do what I suggested a long time ago, since I think it is terribly easy and cannot understand why it is so very hard for you to do."
Is that really what you meant? If not then please say so! I had not considered that there may be a language issue here.
No, this was written with sarcasm. I know that porting ODF support from KDE4 is uneasy. But it is of course easier than re-implementing KDE3 support in an office suite starting from zero.
To answer your question, yes, I think that is a good idea. Would you like to try your hand at it? I probably will not get around to doing so until the entire TQt4 port is complete and some of the open bugs have been addressed.
I also have much of the ongoing tasks. First of all it's adding more software to reach at least 500 packages in KDE:KDE3. Then I will evaluate a possibility to port Yast2 with Qt3 support from an older openSUSE release. Then I will probably repair some broken default icon themes of KDE3 (i.e. iKons and so on), then will probably look into some other annoying bugs of KDE3. I also want to make the tray to use as much rows as the taskbar does.
There are multiple other tasks, for example, updating weather stations info (i saw a report on the internet that the weather station for say, Novosibirsk is outdated and there was a patch but there is some way to automatize this updating actually).
The project is currently somewhat swamped; once the TQt4 port is complete and CMake support has been added, we have enough developer resources to keep things moving along quickly. However, we are still in the middle of those two operations and so are not able to absorb as many of the miscellaneous tasks (such as gcc 4.6 compilation repairs, .odf support, etc.) as you or I would like. Any help is much appreciated during this transitional period.
I also have much of the ongoing tasks. First of all it's adding more software to reach at least 500 packages in KDE:KDE3. Then I will evaluate a possibility to port Yast2 with Qt3 support from an older openSUSE release. Then I will probably repair some broken default icon themes of KDE3 (i.e. iKons and so on), then will probably look into some other annoying bugs of KDE3. I also want to make the tray to use as much rows as the taskbar does.
There are multiple other tasks, for example, updating weather stations info (i saw a report on the internet that the weather station for say, Novosibirsk is outdated and there was a patch but there is some way to automatize this updating actually).
Sounds great! Would you mind sending us a copy of each fix as you create it? Simply sending an Email to this list with the patch attached in plain text (no compressed files please) is sufficient; our tools will capture the patch and add it to a queue for review and application to the Trinity source.
Thanks!
Tim
And by the way, I have just checked - KOffice supports .odf and .odt quite well. Seems there is nothing to patch so what's the problem?
The only advantage of OpenOffice is the support of VB macros.
On Jul 1, 2011, at 16:48, Ilya Chernykh anixxsus@gmail.com wrote:
And by the way, I have just checked - KOffice supports .odf and .odt quite well. Seems there is nothing to patch so what's the problem?
The only advantage of OpenOffice is the support of VB macros.
Why are we discussing this now? You do not need to continue, we are already going to keep KOffice.
-- later, Robert Xu
On Friday 24 June 2011 04:12:12 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Not quite correct. The file picker was broken for a long time. And Trinity did nothing to patch it until openSUSE people fixed it finally.
Interesting that I never noticed a problem with it (???)
This problem has been discussed many times even on this list.
The integration with KDE3 styles is still far from perfect.
Don't you think you overestimate your abilities?
No, not really. However I think you do overestimate yours...
?
On Friday 24 June 2011 04:12:12 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Not quite correct. The file picker was broken for a long time. And Trinity did nothing to patch it until openSUSE people fixed it finally.
Interesting that I never noticed a problem with it (???)
This problem has been discussed many times even on this list.
Link please?
On Friday 24 June 2011 04:34:45 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Not quite correct. The file picker was broken for a long time. And Trinity did nothing to patch it until openSUSE people fixed it finally.
Interesting that I never noticed a problem with it (???)
This problem has been discussed many times even on this list.
Link please?
I actually do not understand why do you ask me since you was one of the people who participated in the discussion: http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::1693
other discussions: http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::1680 http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::1126 http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::183 http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::1708 ftp://ftp.heanet.ie/disk1/lincomlinux/repo/MeetBot/trinity-desktop-meeting/2011/trinity-desktop-meeting.2011-03-16-23.22.log.html
On Friday 24 June 2011 04:34:45 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Not quite correct. The file picker was broken for a long time. And Trinity did nothing to patch it until openSUSE people fixed it finally.
Interesting that I never noticed a problem with it (???)
This problem has been discussed many times even on this list.
Link please?
I actually do not understand why do you ask me since you was one of the people who participated in the discussion: http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::1693
Ah, OK, now I know what you are referring to.
That is not a problem in the file picker code itself; rather it is a problem in the OpenOffice.org build options, which are set by the distribution that provides the binary packages (in this case Debian). Out of courtesy to my Ubuntu userbase I have rebuilt OpenOffice with the KDE3 integration module turned on; no changes to the file picker code itself required.
That being said, I understand this is not a long term solution. I will respond shortly to your other message with more information.
Tim
On Friday 24 June 2011 06:08:28 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Ah, OK, now I know what you are referring to.
That is not a problem in the file picker code itself; rather it is a problem in the OpenOffice.org build options, which are set by the distribution that provides the binary packages (in this case Debian). Out of courtesy to my Ubuntu userbase I have rebuilt OpenOffice with the KDE3 integration module turned on; no changes to the file picker code itself required.
No, this is not a problem of turning on the KDE3 integration. The file picker did not work even with KDE3 integration turned on.
That being said, I understand this is not a long term solution. I will respond shortly to your other message with more information.
On Friday 24 June 2011 06:08:28 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Ah, OK, now I know what you are referring to.
That is not a problem in the file picker code itself; rather it is a problem in the OpenOffice.org build options, which are set by the distribution that provides the binary packages (in this case Debian). Out of courtesy to my Ubuntu userbase I have rebuilt OpenOffice with the KDE3 integration module turned on; no changes to the file picker code itself required.
No, this is not a problem of turning on the KDE3 integration. The file picker did not work even with KDE3 integration turned on.
Was a bug report filed? I have not run into this problem myself, and I use OpenOffice on a daily basis.
Tim
On Friday 24 June 2011 07:02:37 Timothy Pearson wrote:
No, this is not a problem of turning on the KDE3 integration. The file picker did not work even with KDE3 integration turned on.
Was a bug report filed? I have not run into this problem myself, and I use OpenOffice on a daily basis.
You probably used the standard OpenOffice file picker.
On Friday 24 June 2011 07:02:37 Timothy Pearson wrote:
No, this is not a problem of turning on the KDE3 integration. The file picker did not work even with KDE3 integration turned on.
Was a bug report filed? I have not run into this problem myself, and I use OpenOffice on a daily basis.
You probably used the standard OpenOffice file picker.
No I did not. I do know the difference between the two!
If you want to see what was compiled, download the OpenOffice source from QuickBuild and take a look. As there is no central upstream repository for the integration patches (yet) it was up to each distribution to keep a copy of what worked. It is quite possible that I happen to have a version that works, in which case I need to upload it to the Trinity SVN so that others may use it as well.
Tim
On Monday 20 June 2011 03:33:07 Lukas Korsika wrote:
I think it's not so much that Trinity doesn't like KOffice, and more-so that they have to make some tough decisions regarding what projects to spend their limited development resources on. I'm sure they'd be happy for people to adopt other KDE apps. :-) If you can maintain (or pay someone to maintain) KOffice, I'm sure they'll be happy to get help, and that they'll be able to "save" another KDE app.
I think there is little people who can do porting of KOffice to Tqt interface.
On Monday 20 June 2011 03:19:17 Timothy Pearson wrote:
This depends on the perspective. KDE:KDE3 has much more applications written for KDE3 and from this point of view all KDE3 components tat are part of the official distribution look as core.
"Much more applications". Curious then that the (large) Trinity userbase has not run into issues due to missing applications in Trinity itself.
I cannot comment on this. But note that say, Alt Linux includes many KDE3 apps besides Trinity.
I submit that KDE:KDE3 is likely chock full of practically useless, stagnant applications that very few people even knew existed back when KDE3 was in use.
Well actually it turns out that KDE packages were spread and dispersed between multiple distros and no distro ever had even 50% of all available packages. I would say that openSUSE had about 10% of all available KDE3 packages at KDE3's peak.
What are you doing to keep KDE3 up to date? What will you do when Qt3 finally is completely useless/uncompilable on modern desktops?
I don't think this is a near future. Note that both Qt3 and kdebase3 are parts of openSUSE now and for the forseeable future. They receive patches from Novell employees. Anyway I am glad that such project as Trinity exists, which certifies that KDE3 has its future.
How are you improving KDE3 by adding new features? From what I can tell the KDE:KDE3 maintainers are content to maintain a codebase that is not only cluttered, but is slowly growing stale and irrelevant,
There are different packages of different value. I keep in the repo anything useful. If an app was ported to Qt4 I consider it to be another application even if it has the same name and higher version number because in many cases porting to Qt4 indeed requires complete rewriting with loss of function.
just so that they can claim to have "more appliations", which in and of itself is of dubious value.
So your choice is to drop anything step by step? Actually I appreciate the strategic moves that you do (porting to tqinteface, to cmake etc) but whether Trinity will be of any value if it drops software that is around KDE?
Not to be rude, but I have not seen much factual information from you, just a lot of unsubstantiated and/or dubious claims. Please correct me if I am wrong.
What info do you want?
On Monday 20 June 2011 03:19:17 Timothy Pearson wrote:
What are you doing to keep KDE3 up to date? What will you do when Qt3 finally is completely useless/uncompilable on modern desktops?
And I think those who deal with KDE4 have more reasons to fear transition to Qt5/KDE5
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Calvin Morrison -
Ilya Chernykh -
Katheryne Draven -
Lukas Korsika -
Nicolas Bercher -
PICCORO McKAY Lenz -
Robert Xu -
Tiago Marques -
Timothy Pearson