1 Feb
2012
1 Feb
'12
7:47 p.m.
All there:
https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always open!
--
later daze. :: Robert Xu :: rxu.lincomlinux.org :: protocol.by/rxu
1 Feb
1 Feb
8:42 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-devel] 01 February 2012 Meeting Notes
Am 01.02.2012 20:47, schrieb Robert Xu:
All there:
https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always
open!
Before misinformation about KWin spread, I dare to speak up.
17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I would
hate to have to install
kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4 libraries and automatically
installs that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
Personally I hate statements without checking facts. KWin neither
requires Akonadi nor Nepomuk. My CI-system has neither one installed.
But to give proof:
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kde-window-manager | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-runtime | grep akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-workspace-bin | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$
So this should not at all be a problem for Trinity - yeah \o/ :-)
17:48:04 <kb9vqf-offsite> kwin4 is highly
integrated into kde4's core
libraries
17:48:13 <kb9vqf-offsite> unless I'm wrong :)
again checking facts first,
helps. You are mistaken. Of course KWin
uses kde4 libs, but nothing so critical that I would not suggest to you
to use KWin instead of your fork. In fact I did an in dep analysis
whether we could go for a Qt4-only version just last week. I decided to
postpone to after frameworks 5 due to many kDebug statements. But apart
from that the usage is rather small and could easily be ifdefed. I think
I offered you to use a special branch in kde-workspace and I have a
CI-system which can ensure that the branch does not break.
17:48:48 <eliddell> I find it odd that that KDE
dev never gave a
concrete example of a twin bug fixed in kwin. Why is it superior?
I find it odd
that you question the stating of one of the devs who
really knows the code. If you are interested in the bugs: our bug
tracker and version control system is open. Feel free to search :-)
17:49:19 <Strangelv> Didn't they fix most of
the bugs by starting
over with a mostly new slate of bugs?
17:49:22 <kb9vqf-offsite> yep
no! We did not start over! The window manager
is unchanged - except
less bugs! We added a compositor which is orthogonal to the window
manager and of course we introduced bugs there. But we also fixed them.
At least there are less bugs in KWin's compositor than in kcompmgr used
by trinity (btw. the developer of kcompmgr is one of the core
contributor to todays compositor). Feel free to watch my blog where I
soon will show some stats about the development history since 4.0. It
shows nicely that the window manager is hardly changed.
17:49:34 <kb9vqf-offsite> kwin has a different
focus
17:49:43 <kb9vqf-offsite> it aims to be a fancy effects type manager
No! KWin
has no focus on being a "fancy effects type manager". Yes we
have fancy effects, because there is user demand, but we have none of
the fancy effects supported by default.
17:50:01 <kb9vqf-offsite> but I can almost
guarantee dependence on
new Qt4 features
Yes of course we make use of features of Qt 4.7. Why shouldn't
we? It's
a great release and I can only recommend you to make usage of it :-)
If you have questions about KWin please ask, but please don't base any
decisions on wrong information. Unfortunately none of the statements by
kb9vqf in regards of KWin has been correct. I have no idea who is behind
this nickname and I personally don't care.
Once again I can only recommend you to use KWin instead of twin. KWin 4
is a continuation of KWin 3 and not a rewrite. The KWin team has more
active contributors than people had been active in your latest meeting
:-)
Kind Regards
Martin Gräßlin
KWin maintainer
8:54 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-devel] 01 February 2012 Meeting Notes
Am 01.02.2012 20:47, schrieb Robert Xu:
As I said... "unless I am wrong" :-) I was speaking from past experience
only, and the basic steps outlined still hold. twin is not going to go
away, but kwin should be allowed (along with any other WM) in TDE
sessions.
I meant nepomuk, not akodanai. It can be hard to keep all of the (foreign
language) codenames straight in one's mind. :-)
On my Ubuntu system nepomuk has to be installed with kwin:
===========================================================================
~$ sudo apt-get install kde-window-manager
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
kdebase-runtime kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins kdoctools
kubuntu-debug-installer libkdecorations4 libkephal4 libkwineffects1a
libkworkspace4
libvirtodbc0 qapt-batch virtuoso-minimal virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin
virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common
The following NEW packages will be installed:
kde-window-manager kdebase-runtime kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins
kdoctools kubuntu-debug-installer libkdecorations4 libkephal4
libkwineffects1a
libkworkspace4 libvirtodbc0 qapt-batch virtuoso-minimal
virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common
===========================================================================
~$ dpkg -L kdebase-runtime-data | grep nepomuk | grep autostart
/usr/share/autostart/nepomukserver.desktop
===========================================================================
so that is NOT an option for me.
Tim
All there:
https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always
open!
Before misinformation about KWin spread, I dare to speak up.
17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I
would hate to have to install
kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4 libraries and automatically
installs that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
Personally I hate statements without checking facts. KWin neither
requires Akonadi nor Nepomuk. My CI-system has neither one installed.
But to give proof:
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kde-window-manager | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-runtime | grep akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-workspace-bin | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$
So this should not at all be a problem for Trinity - yeah \o/ :-) 
9:57 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-devel] 01 February 2012 Meeting Notes
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 14:54:23 -0600
"Timothy Pearson" <kb9vqf(a)pearsoncomputing.net> wrote:
[...]
Am 01.02.2012
20:47, schrieb Robert Xu:
As I said... "unless I am wrong" :-) I was speaking from past experience
only, and the basic steps outlined still hold. twin is not going to go
away, but kwin should be allowed (along with any other WM) in TDE
sessions.
I meant nepomuk, not akodanai. It can be hard to keep all of the (foreign
language) codenames straight in one's mind. :-)
On my Ubuntu system nepomuk has to be installed with kwin: All there:
https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always
open!
Before misinformation about KWin spread, I dare to speak up.
17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I
would hate to have to install
kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4 libraries and automatically
installs that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
Personally I hate statements without checking facts. KWin neither
requires Akonadi nor Nepomuk. My CI-system has neither one installed.
But to give proof:
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kde-window-manager | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-runtime | grep akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-workspace-bin | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$
So this should not at all be a problem for Trinity - yeah \o/ :-) so that is NOT an option for me.
Gentoo doesn't appear to require nepomuk as a kwin dependency (~30 other
packages I don't have installed, yes, but not nepomuk), so I suspect you're
running into either an Ubuntu quirk or something to do with semantic desktops,
which are not an absolute requirement for KDE4 IIRC.
The main problem I'm seeing is kdelibs, which *is* a kwin dependency as far as I
can tell, and which wants to drag in strigi and a bunch of other unwanted-by-me
cruft ranging from phonon to consolekit. Either all references to kdelibs that can't
be replaced with tdelibs would need to be scrubbed from the kwin code, or a small
kdelibs-subset containing only the functions vital to kwin would need to be created.
Without knowing the code, I can't say whether that's possible or not--presumably,
Martin can tell us.
If we're going to include kwin in Trinity, we have to cut it down those of its
dependencies that aren't used by anything else to at most 2-3 smallish packages,
regardless of what those packages are, IMNSHO. Concentrating on
akonadi/strigi/nepomuk is a red herring.
10:12 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-devel] 01 February 2012 Meeting Notes
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 14:54:23 -0600
"Timothy Pearson" <kb9vqf(a)pearsoncomputing.net> wrote:
As I said... "unless I am wrong" :-) I was speaking from past
experience
only, and the basic steps outlined still hold. twin is not going to go
away, but kwin should be allowed (along with any other WM) in TDE
sessions.
I meant nepomuk, not akodanai. It can be hard to keep all of the
(foreign
language) codenames straight in one's mind. :-)
On my Ubuntu system nepomuk has to be installed with kwin: [...]
Sounds reasonable. Martin, can this be done?
Tim
Am
01.02.2012 20:47, schrieb Robert Xu:
automatically
All there:
https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always
open!
Before misinformation about KWin spread, I dare to speak up.
> 17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I would hate to have to install
> kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4 libraries and installs
that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
Personally I hate statements without checking facts. KWin neither
requires Akonadi nor Nepomuk. My CI-system has neither one installed.
But to give proof:
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kde-window-manager | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-runtime | grep akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-workspace-bin | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$
So this should not at all be a problem for Trinity - yeah \o/ :-) so that is NOT an option for me.
Gentoo doesn't appear to require nepomuk as a kwin dependency (~30 other
packages I don't have installed, yes, but not nepomuk), so I suspect
you're
running into either an Ubuntu quirk or something to do with semantic
desktops,
which are not an absolute requirement for KDE4 IIRC.
The main problem I'm seeing is kdelibs, which *is* a kwin dependency as
far as I
can tell, and which wants to drag in strigi and a bunch of other
unwanted-by-me
cruft ranging from phonon to consolekit. Either all references to kdelibs
that can't
be replaced with tdelibs would need to be scrubbed from the kwin code, or
a small
kdelibs-subset containing only the functions vital to kwin would need to
be created.
Without knowing the code, I can't say whether that's possible or
not--presumably,
Martin can tell us.
If we're going to include kwin in Trinity, we have to cut it down those of
its
dependencies that aren't used by anything else to at most 2-3 smallish
packages,
regardless of what those packages are, IMNSHO. Concentrating on
akonadi/strigi/nepomuk is a red herring.
10:42 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-devel] 01 February 2012 Meeting Notes
Am 01.02.2012 22:57, schrieb E. Liddell:
The main problem I'm seeing is kdelibs, which *is*
a kwin dependency
as far as I
can tell, and which wants to drag in strigi and a bunch of other
unwanted-by-me
cruft ranging from phonon to consolekit.
These are all issues going away with KDE
Frameworks 5 which we can
expect the first release out in this year.
Either all references to
kdelibs that can't
be replaced with tdelibs would need to be scrubbed from the kwin
code, or a small
kdelibs-subset containing only the functions vital to kwin would need
to be created.
Without knowing the code, I can't say whether that's possible or
not--presumably,
Martin can tell us.
It is possible to build such a kdelibs-subset. That was my idea
for "Qt
only kwin". What we need is KWindowSystem which actually belongs to KWin
but is for historic reasons part of kdelibs. It will also become an
independent library in Frameworks 5.
If we're going to include kwin in Trinity, we have to cut it down
those of its
dependencies that aren't used by anything else to at most 2-3
smallish packages,
regardless of what those packages are, IMNSHO. Concentrating on
akonadi/strigi/nepomuk is a red herring.
I quite agree that buzzword bingo is the
wrong approach ;-) We have not
many dependencies and I am interested in having a branch with few
dependencies (also for other parties than just Trinity). But as I wrote
in the last mail: I decided to delay it till we are based on Frameworks
5. For Trinity it might be easier as things like kDebug did not change
between kdelibs 3 and 4.
Cheers
Martin
10:33 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-devel] 01 February 2012 Meeting Notes
Am 01.02.2012 21:54, schrieb Timothy Pearson:
This is a packaging issue. As I mentioned: my CI
builds without
anything of Nepomuk (no soprano, no strigi, etc.) being installed at all
on my server.
Cheers
Martin
Am 01.02.2012
20:47, schrieb Robert Xu:
As I said... "unless I am wrong" :-) I was speaking from past
experience
only, and the basic steps outlined still hold. twin is not going to
go
away, but kwin should be allowed (along with any other WM) in TDE
sessions.
I meant nepomuk, not akodanai. It can be hard to keep all of the
(foreign
language) codenames straight in one's mind. :-)
On my Ubuntu system nepomuk has to be installed with kwin:
===========================================================================
~$ sudo apt-get install kde-window-manager
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
kdebase-runtime kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins kdoctools
kubuntu-debug-installer libkdecorations4 libkephal4 libkwineffects1a
libkworkspace4
libvirtodbc0 qapt-batch virtuoso-minimal
virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin
virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common
The following NEW packages will be installed:
kde-window-manager kdebase-runtime kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins
kdoctools kubuntu-debug-installer libkdecorations4 libkephal4
libkwineffects1a
libkworkspace4 libvirtodbc0 qapt-batch virtuoso-minimal
virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common
===========================================================================
~$ dpkg -L kdebase-runtime-data | grep nepomuk | grep autostart
/usr/share/autostart/nepomukserver.desktop
===========================================================================
so that is NOT an option for me. All there:
https://gist.github.com/1718892
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is
always
open!
Before misinformation about KWin spread, I dare to speak up.
17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I
would hate to have to
install
kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4 libraries and
automatically
installs that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
Personally I hate statements without checking facts. KWin neither
requires Akonadi nor Nepomuk. My CI-system has neither one
installed.
But to give proof:
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kde-window-manager | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-runtime | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-workspace-bin | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$
So this should not at all be a problem for Trinity - yeah \o/ :-) 
10:41 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-devel] 01 February 2012 Meeting Notes
On 1 February 2012 17:33, Martin Gräßlin <mgraesslin(a)kde.org> wrote:
Am 01.02.2012 21:54, schrieb Timothy Pearson:
Am 01.02.2012 20:47, schrieb Robert Xu:
As I said... "unless I am wrong" :-) I was speaking from past experience
only, and the basic steps outlined still hold. twin is not going to go
away, but kwin should be allowed (along with any other WM) in TDE
sessions.
I meant nepomuk, not akodanai. It can be hard to keep all of the (foreign
language) codenames straight in one's mind. :-)
On my Ubuntu system nepomuk has to be installed with kwin:
==============================**==============================**
===============
~$ sudo apt-get install kde-window-manager
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
kdebase-runtime kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins kdoctools
kubuntu-debug-installer libkdecorations4 libkephal4 libkwineffects1a
libkworkspace4
libvirtodbc0 qapt-batch virtuoso-minimal virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin
virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common
The following NEW packages will be installed:
kde-window-manager kdebase-runtime kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins
kdoctools kubuntu-debug-installer libkdecorations4 libkephal4
libkwineffects1a
libkworkspace4 libvirtodbc0 qapt-batch virtuoso-minimal
virtuoso-opensource-6.1-bin virtuoso-opensource-6.1-common
==============================**==============================**
===============
~$ dpkg -L kdebase-runtime-data | grep nepomuk | grep autostart
/usr/share/autostart/**nepomukserver.desktop
==============================**==============================**
===============
so that is NOT an option for me.
This is a packaging issue. As I mentioned: my CI builds without anything
of Nepomuk (no soprano, no strigi, etc.) being installed at all on my
server.
Cheers
Martin
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Same here. About 174Mb of depends getting pulld in on ubuntu - no thanks!
I see the reasoning behind switching to kwin. I don't see it being worth
the effort.
All there:
https://gist.github.com/**1718892 <https://gist.github.com/1718892>
Feel free to speak up should you have an opinion - the door is always
open!
Before misinformation about KWin spread, I dare to speak up.
17:47:35 <kb9vqf-offsite> Personally I would hate to have to install
kwin, which relies on a bunch of other KDE4
libraries and automatically
installs that akodani garbage scanner stuff, just to use TDE
Personally I hate statements without checking facts. KWin neither
requires Akonadi nor Nepomuk. My CI-system has neither one installed.
But to give proof:
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kde-window-manager | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-runtime | grep akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$ aptitude show kdebase-workspace-bin | grep
akonadi
martin@martin-thinkpad:~$
So this should not at all be a problem for Trinity - yeah \o/ :-)
10:45 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-devel] 01 February 2012 Meeting Notes
Am 01.02.2012 23:41, schrieb Calvin Morrison:
Same here. About 174Mb of depends getting pulld in on
ubuntu - no
thanks!
I see the reasoning behind switching to kwin. I don't see it being
worth
the effort.
AFAIK Trinity is doing its own packaging. If you are unsatisfied with
the packaging of kwin on ubuntu, provide a different package. You have
to do this anyway as e.g. you would not want Plasma integration while we
do.
10:57 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-devel] 01 February 2012 Meeting Notes
On 1 February 2012 17:45, Martin Gräßlin <mgraesslin(a)kde.org> wrote:
Am 01.02.2012 23:41, schrieb Calvin Morrison:
Same here. About 174Mb of depends getting pulld in on ubuntu - no thanks!
Agreed - At what point will the Frameworks 5 be used? Until then we might
as well wait.
I see the reasoning behind switching to kwin. I don't see it being worth
the effort.
AFAIK Trinity is doing its own packaging. If you are unsatisfied with the
packaging of kwin on ubuntu, provide a different package. You have to do
this anyway as e.g. you would not want Plasma integration while we do.
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2 Feb
2 Feb
8:10 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-devel] 01 February 2012 Meeting Notes
Am 01.02.2012 23:57, schrieb Calvin Morrison:
On 1 February 2012 17:45, Martin Gräßlin
<mgraesslin(a)kde.org> wrote:
There is no date yet, but we expect a Frameworks release this year.
After that we can transit KWin to use Frameworks. Part of Frameworks can
hopefully even be used before (e.g. KWindowSystem).
Cheers
Martin
Am 01.02.2012 23:41, schrieb Calvin Morrison:
Same here. About 174Mb of depends getting pulld in on ubuntu - no
thanks!
Agreed - At what point will the Frameworks 5 be used? Until then we
might
as well wait.
I see the reasoning behind switching to kwin. I don't see it being
worth
the effort.
AFAIK Trinity is doing its own packaging. If you are unsatisfied
with the
packaging of kwin on ubuntu, provide a different package. You have
to do
this anyway as e.g. you would not want Plasma integration while we
do.
4677
days inactive
4678
days old
10 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Calvin Morrison -
E. Liddell -
Martin Gräßlin -
Robert Xu -
Timothy Pearson