Re: [trinity-users] desktop crashing

said Slávek Banko: | On Sunday 11 of January 2015 17:44:08 dep wrote: | > said Michele Calgaro: | > | On 01/03/2015 07:53 AM, dep wrote: | > | > said Gerhard Zintel: | On Friday 02 January 2015, dep wrote: | > | > | > said Michele Calgaro: | > | On 12/28/2014 08:15 AM, dep wrote: | > | > | > | > sorry to be such a bother, but as long as i'm bringing things | > | > up, | > | > | > | > | > | > here's one that has been an issue for a couple of years and | | > | > | > > | | > | > > | > | > > survived into R14. | > | > | > | > my desktop crashes, but in | > | > > such a | > | > | > | > way as to not even be noticeable | > | > at first. | > | > | > | > | > | > i have in lieu of wallpaper xplanet set up as a realtime moon | > | > | > | > phase indicator, updating hourly. the way i tell the desktop | > | > has | > | | > | > | > | > > crashed is that it doesn't update -- in this case it last | > | | > | > > > | > | > | > | > refreshed at 10:30 a.m. yesterday. i believe that i was probably | | > | > > | | > | > | > | > > editing pictures at that time, though would not swear to it. | > | > | > > | > | > | > > | > | > | > | > after it crashes, a right click on the desktop does not | > | > | > | > produce | > | > the expected menu. as it happens, kicker and | > | > everything else | | > | > | > | > > | > continues to function as expected -- in fact, it was just | > | > > | > now that | > | > i noticed that the desktop itself | > | > | > | > had gone south. | > | > | > | > i thought i'd look in the x error | > | > log, bit i see that the one i | > | > have, ~/.xsession-errors, is | > | > of an unspecified file type and won't | > | > open in a text | > | > editor (it reports its size as 500.0 k). | > | > | > | > any idea | > | > if there's a log that might let me see what's going on | > | > | > | > here and if so what log it might be? bonus points, how i might | > | > | > | > restart the desktop without logging out and back in? extra | > | > bonus | > | > points, how i might fix it so it doesn't do this | > | > anymore? i'm | > | > running some flavor of ubuntu 12.04LTS -- i | > | > say some flavor | > | > because when i sought to upgrade a few | > | > days ago the ubuntu | > | > upgrader refused, citing third-party | > | > apps or a beta version of the | > | > opsys, or something; it | > | > didn't specify. i thought i had bog | > | > standard 12.04LTS on | > | > the machine but am apparently wrong. | > | | > | sorry for the | > | > late reply. | > | > | > | > The desktop behavior is controlled by the | > | kdesktop process. | > | > When | > | > your desktop stops updating, from CLI type: | > | > | > | ps aux | grep desktop | > | and see if there is something like: | > | > | > | | > | username 8414 0.4 0.7 260192 | > | > | > | > 28956 pts/8 Sl 12:50 0:00 | > | kdesktop | > | > avahi | > | > 1973 0.0 0.0 32308 1732 ? S 2014 0:01 | > | > | > avahi-daemon: running [dep-desktop.local] | > dep 3200 0.0 | > | > 0.1 252184 17972 ? Sl 2014 | | > | > | > | > > 1:04 /opt/trinity/bin/kdesktop | > dep 11289 0.0 0.0 | > | > > 0 0 ? Z 2014 0:02 | > | > | > | > | > [kdesktop_lock] <defunct> | > dep 29758 0.0 0.0 9388 | > | > 904 pts/0 S+ 16:12 0:00 grep | > desktop | | > | > | > | > > | > nevertheless, it hasn't updated since 10:19:53 AM 26 | > | > > | > December. and a | > rmb click on the desktop does not | > | > | > | > produce the expected menu. | > | > | If not, kdesktop has crashed. | > | > You can type: | > | kdesktop & from CLI to restart it (or | > | > alternatively Alt-F2 and then | > | kdesktop). | > | > | > | > dep@dep-desktop:~$ kdesktop is already running! | > | > | If this | > | > brings everything back in order, please let us know because | > | | > | > we need some more advanced testing to understand why and where | > | > | > | kdesktop crashed. | > | > fwiw, top reports 3 zombies. | | have | > | > you tried to kill the running kdesktop beforehand (not the | | > | > defuncts)? I assume it runns under process number 3200. Thus: | $ | > | > kill -9 3200 | | and than launch kdesktop again? | > | > | > | > this worked. i do not know if we learned anything from its having | > | > worked, but work it did. | > | > | > | > thanks! | > | | > | kdesktop_lock died and has not been reaped, so I suspect that | > | kdesktop may be waiting on some unreleased mutex, which would be the | > | reason why the background does not update any more and the RMB click | > | doesn't do anything. Something obviously went wrong. | > | The next time you see the error, can you try the following: | > | 1) ps aux | grep kdesktop -> this should give again kdesktop_lock | > | <defunct> 2) take note of the kdesktop pid (not the kdesktop_lock) | > | 3) from CLI (not within TDE, but from a tty), run: gdb --pid=<pid of | > | kdesktop> --> you may try from a TDE console, but you may loose the | > | keyboard. In such case you have to switch to a tty, kill the gdb | > | instance and retry from there. 4) type: thread apply all bt | > | Report what is printed out. This hopefully will provide some | > | additional info. If it is not critical for you, please do not exit | > | gdb and do not kill and restart kdesktop. Depending on what we find, | > | we may have to run some other commands. | > | | > | By the way, can you open a proper bug report on our bugszilla? It | > | looks like there is something to fix here :-) | > | > I shall create an account there and do so; it hath happened again. The | > results from your instructions: | > | > dep@dep-desktop:~$ ps aux | grep kdesktop | > dep 11451 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? Z Jan08 3:19 | > [kdesktop_lock] <defunct> | > dep 30334 0.0 0.1 252428 18252 ? Sl Jan02 4:55 | > kdesktop dep 30724 0.0 0.0 9384 908 pts/0 S+ 11:37 | > 0:00 grep kdesktop | > dep@dep-desktop:~$ gdb --pid=30334 | > GNU gdb (Ubuntu/Linaro 7.4-2012.04-0ubuntu2.1) 7.4-2012.04 | > Copyright (C) 2012 Free Software Foundation, Inc. | > License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later | > <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html> | > This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. | > There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. Type "show | > copying" and "show warranty" for details. | > This GDB was configured as "x86_64-linux-gnu". | > For bug reporting instructions, please see: | > <http://bugs.launchpad.net/gdb-linaro/>. | > Attaching to process 30334 | > Could not attach to process. If your uid matches the uid of the | > target process, check the setting of | > /proc/sys/kernel/yama/ptrace_scope, or try again as the root user. | > For more details, see /etc/sysctl.d/10-ptrace.conf ptrace: Operation | > not permitted. | > (gdb) thread apply all bt | > (gdb) | > | > so tried again as root: | > | > GNU gdb (Ubuntu/Linaro 7.4-2012.04-0ubuntu2.1) 7.4-2012.04 | > Copyright (C) 2012 Free Software Foundation, Inc. | > License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later | > <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html> | > This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. | > There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. Type "show | > copying" and "show warranty" for details. | > This GDB was configured as "x86_64-linux-gnu". | > For bug reporting instructions, please see: | > <http://bugs.launchpad.net/gdb-linaro/>. | > Attaching to process 30334 | > Reading symbols from /opt/trinity/bin/kdesktop...(no debugging symbols | > found)...done. | > Reading symbols from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeinit_kdesktop.so...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeinit_kdesktop.so | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 | > Reading symbols from /opt/trinity/lib/libkonq.so.4...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /opt/trinity/lib/libkonq.so.4 | > Reading symbols from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeutils.so.1...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeutils.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXrender.so.1...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXrender.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11.so.6...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11.so.6 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXcursor.so.1...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXcursor.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXext.so.6...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXext.so.6 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXss.so.1...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXss.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/libdbus-1-tqt.so.0...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/libdbus-1-tqt.so.0 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXau.so.6...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXau.so.6 | > Reading symbols from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeio.so.14...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeio.so.14 | > Reading symbols from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeui.so.14...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeui.so.14 | > Reading symbols from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdesu.so.14...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /opt/trinity/lib/libtdesu.so.14 | > Reading symbols from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdecore.so.14...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /opt/trinity/lib/libtdecore.so.14 | > Reading symbols from /opt/trinity/lib/libDCOP.so.14...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /opt/trinity/lib/libDCOP.so.14 | > Reading symbols from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdefx.so.14...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /opt/trinity/lib/libtdefx.so.14 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3...(no debugging symbols | > found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 | > Reading symbols from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeparts.so.2...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeparts.so.2 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libz.so.1...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libz.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxcb.so.1...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxcb.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXfixes.so.3...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXfixes.so.3 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdbus-1.so.3...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdbus-1.so.3 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > [Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled] | > Using host libthread_db library | > "/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libthread_db.so.1". [New Thread 0x7f5c62de7700 | > (LWP 30339)] | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 | > Reading symbols from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdewalletclient.so.1...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /opt/trinity/lib/libtdewalletclient.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/libr.so.0...(no debugging symbols | > found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/libr.so.0 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libacl.so.1...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libacl.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/libmagic.so.1...(no debugging symbols | > found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/libmagic.so.1 | > Reading symbols from | > /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libfontconfig.so.1...(no debugging symbols | > found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libfontconfig.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/libtqt.so.4...(no debugging symbols | > found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for 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/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libglib-2.0.so.0 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXi.so.6...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXi.so.6 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXrandr.so.2...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXrandr.so.2 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXinerama.so.1...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXinerama.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXft.so.2...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXft.so.2 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libfreetype.so.6...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libfreetype.so.6 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXdmcp.so.6...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXdmcp.so.6 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/librt.so.1...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/librt.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/libbfd-2.22-system.so...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/libbfd-2.22-system.so | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libattr.so.1...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libattr.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libexpat.so.1...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libexpat.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXt.so.6...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXt.so.6 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpcre.so.3...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpcre.so.3 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libnss_compat.so.2...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libnss_compat.so.2 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libnsl.so.1...(no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libnsl.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libnss_nis.so.2...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libnss_nis.so.2 | > Reading symbols from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libnss_files.so.2...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libnss_files.so.2 | > Reading symbols from | > /opt/trinity/lib/trinity/plugins/styles/asteroid.so... (no debugging | > symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /opt/trinity/lib/trinity/plugins/styles/asteroid.so | > Reading symbols from | > /usr/lib/tqt3/plugins/imageformats/libqmng.so...(no debugging symbols | > found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/tqt3/plugins/imageformats/libqmng.so | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libmng.so.1...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libmng.so.1 | > Reading symbols from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/liblcms.so.1...(no | > debugging symbols found)...done. | > Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/liblcms.so.1 | > 0x00007f5c6cca1feb in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 | > (gdb) | > | > Not sure that this is overarchingly helpful . . . | > | > Many thanks, as always. | | On the second try - as root - you did not enter in gdb command: | thread apply all bt | | Listing is unfortunately not useful. alas -- i am an idiot. here goes: (gdb) thread apply all bt Thread 2 (Thread 0x7f5c62de7700 (LWP 30339)): #0 0x00007f5c6801689c in __lll_lock_wait () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 #1 0x00007f5c68012065 in _L_lock_858 () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 #2 0x00007f5c68011eba in pthread_mutex_lock () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 #3 0x00007f5c6971f4ff in ?? () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #4 0x00007f5c69493655 in TQEventLoop::hasPendingEvents() const () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #5 0x00007f5c694931d5 in TQEventLoop::gsourceCheck(_GSource*) () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #6 0x00007f5c69493243 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #7 0x00007f5c65897b03 in g_main_context_check () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libglib-2.0.so.0 #8 0x00007f5c65897f96 in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libglib-2.0.so.0 #9 0x00007f5c65898124 in g_main_context_iteration () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libglib-2.0.so.0 #10 0x00007f5c69492b68 in TQEventLoop::processEvents(unsigned int) () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #11 0x00007f5c694c2319 in TQEventLoop::enterLoop() () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 ---Type <return> to continue, or q <return> to quit--- #12 0x00007f5c694c22a9 in TQEventLoop::exec() () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #13 0x00007f5c694a970d in ?? () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #14 0x00007f5c658b99b5 in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libglib-2.0.so.0 #15 0x00007f5c6800fe9a in start_thread () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 #16 0x00007f5c6cc942ed in clone () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 #17 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () Thread 1 (Thread 0x7f5c6d413780 (LWP 30334)): #0 0x00007f5c6cca1feb in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 #1 0x00007f5c6cc24f61 in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 #2 0x00007f5c6cc22c87 in malloc () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 #3 0x00007f5c68fddded in operator new(unsigned long) () from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6 #4 0x00007f5c6972fdde in TQGArray::newData() () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #5 0x00007f5c6972fec7 in TQGArray::TQGArray() () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #6 0x00007f5c69725809 in TQCString::TQCString(char const*) () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #7 0x00007f5c69515ccc in TQSignal::connect(TQObject const*, char const*) () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #8 0x00007f5c695218f4 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #9 0x00007f5c6cfbeccc in ?? () from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeinit_kdesktop.so #10 0x00007f5c6cfbcd93 in ?? () from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeinit_kdesktop.so #11 <signal handler called> #12 0x00007f5c6cc2406a in calloc () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 #13 0x00007f5c6a1586ee in NETWinInfo::NETWinInfo(_XDisplay*, unsigned long, unsigned long, unsigned long, NET::Role) () from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdecore.so.14 #14 0x00007f5c6a1b4922 in ?? () from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdecore.so.14 #15 0x00007f5c6a138ff0 in TDEApplication::x11EventFilter(_XEvent*) () from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdecore.so.14 #16 0x00007f5c6cfe5039 in ?? () from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeinit_kdesktop.so #17 0x00007f5c6945b6f6 in TQApplication::x11ProcessEvent(_XEvent*) () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #18 0x00007f5c69492d12 in TQEventLoop::processX11Events() () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #19 0x00007f5c694934f6 in TQEventLoop::gsourceDispatch(_GSource*) () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #20 0x00007f5c69493623 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #21 0x00007f5c65897d13 in g_main_context_dispatch () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libglib-2.0.so.0 #22 0x00007f5c65898060 in ?? () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libglib-2.0.so.0 #23 0x00007f5c65898124 in g_main_context_iteration () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libglib-2.0.so.0 #24 0x00007f5c69492b68 in TQEventLoop::processEvents(unsigned int) () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #25 0x00007f5c694c2319 in TQEventLoop::enterLoop() () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #26 0x00007f5c694c22a9 in TQEventLoop::exec() () from /usr/lib/libtqt-mt.so.3 #27 0x00007f5c6cf973ec in kdemain () from /opt/trinity/lib/libtdeinit_kdesktop.so #28 0x00000000004007a4 in _start () (gdb) -- dep The shortest distance between you and playing great acoustic guitar: the great new instructional DVDs from Marjorie Thompson, available at www.MarjorieThompson.com