greets!
I want to install Trinity on a multiboot uefi system. I think I've messed up the uefi already so I am wary about doing something that renders the system unbootable. (will of course do backup but still...)
it's got Windows 7 and NetRunner on it. csm is turned on (which I think is part of the problem) and of course secure boot and fast boot are off.
when it boots it goes into BIOS, ok UEFI, and I can choose or it defaults to Linux. my preference would be to have a grub interface but so be it for now.
suppose I now install Trinity. should I let it write to the mbr or rather to its own partition?
if you know a good (detailed but essentials highlighted) online reference, that would be great. as yet I'm confused about the logic of uefi.
thanks for advice!
f.
On Saturday 31 December 2016 12:56:59 Felmon Davis wrote:
greets!
I want to install Trinity on a multiboot uefi system. I think I've messed up the uefi already so I am wary about doing something that renders the system unbootable. (will of course do backup but still...)
it's got Windows 7 and NetRunner on it. csm is turned on (which I think is part of the problem) and of course secure boot and fast boot are off.
CSM? Definition plz.
when it boots it goes into BIOS, ok UEFI, and I can choose or it defaults to Linux. my preference would be to have a grub interface but so be it for now.
suppose I now install Trinity. should I let it write to the mbr or rather to its own partition?
if you know a good (detailed but essentials highlighted) online reference, that would be great. as yet I'm confused about the logic of uefi.
So am I as I've not bought a board with a UEFI bios on it yet. However, there is not a single reason trinity, to my knowledge, writes anything to the MBR.
thanks for advice!
f.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
On Saturday 31 December 2016 12:56:59 Felmon Davis wrote:
greets!
I want to install Trinity on a multiboot uefi system. I think I've messed up the uefi already so I am wary about doing something that renders the system unbootable. (will of course do backup but still...)
it's got Windows 7 and NetRunner on it. csm is turned on (which I think is part of the problem) and of course secure boot and fast boot are off.
CSM? Definition plz.
I'd have to google what the acronym stands for but it's a utility in UEFI which allows 'legacy' booting, that is, booting via the MBR.
So am I as I've not bought a board with a UEFI bios on it yet. However, there is not a single reason trinity, to my knowledge, writes anything to the MBR.
not sure what you mean: that's where some of the partitioning code used to lodge. I forget the details but something like BIOS jumps to code in the MBR which knows the partitioning scheme. UEFI, replacing BIOS, uses a different process. details cloudy. the crucial code is in a uefi-boot partition.
I don't like it defaulting to NetRunner since I wanted it to default to grub and then I could manage everything there. I'd like Windows, NetRunner (soon Maui?) and Trinity. I may remove NetRunner in the longer run but it's been fun and useful.
f.
A little more information on what distro you are using would be helpful. Debian Live build now has proper UEFI support so you can build, or get someone to build one for you, a live image and use that to install it. Grub-efi should install, if you are using an efi capable installer and Windows is installed using efi, and you should then be able to select whatever OS you want as you would normally using Grub.
On 1 January 2017 at 06:22, Felmon Davis davisf@union.edu wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
On Saturday 31 December 2016 12:56:59 Felmon Davis wrote:
greets!
I want to install Trinity on a multiboot uefi system. I think I've messed up the uefi already so I am wary about doing something that renders the system unbootable. (will of course do backup but still...)
it's got Windows 7 and NetRunner on it. csm is turned on (which I think is part of the problem) and of course secure boot and fast boot are off.
CSM? Definition plz.
I'd have to google what the acronym stands for but it's a utility in UEFI which allows 'legacy' booting, that is, booting via the MBR.
So am I as I've not bought a board with a UEFI bios on it yet. However,
there is not a single reason trinity, to my knowledge, writes anything to the MBR.
not sure what you mean: that's where some of the partitioning code used to lodge. I forget the details but something like BIOS jumps to code in the MBR which knows the partitioning scheme. UEFI, replacing BIOS, uses a different process. details cloudy. the crucial code is in a uefi-boot partition.
I don't like it defaulting to NetRunner since I wanted it to default to grub and then I could manage everything there. I'd like Windows, NetRunner (soon Maui?) and Trinity. I may remove NetRunner in the longer run but it's been fun and useful.
f.
-- Felmon Davis
Getting into trouble is easy. -- D. Winkel and F. Prosser
To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@list s.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-users-help@lists.pears oncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.pearsonco mputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputin g.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting
On Sun, 1 Jan 2017, Michael . wrote:
A little more information on what distro you are using would be helpful. Debian Live build now has proper UEFI support so you can build, or get someone to build one for you, a live image and use that to install it. Grub-efi should install, if you are using an efi capable installer and Windows is installed using efi, and you should then be able to select whatever OS you want as you would normally using Grub.
as mentioned, I have Windows 7 and NetRunner; I want to add Trinity. I like Hare's exegnu version.
however, I guess I can install Debian Live with uefi support. then load Trinity on top of it!
I will have to check if I installed Windows via uefi. NetRunner is, I'm pretty sure, using uefi.
however, you imply that there will be problems if Windows is not under uefi. presumably I would have to boot it from the 'BIOS' instead of via grub-efi. if so, not pretty but tolerable. I don't have time right now for magic surgical operations.
f.
On 1 January 2017 at 06:22, Felmon Davis davisf@union.edu wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016, Gene Heskett wrote:
On Saturday 31 December 2016 12:56:59 Felmon Davis wrote:
greets!
I want to install Trinity on a multiboot uefi system. I think I've messed up the uefi already so I am wary about doing something that renders the system unbootable. (will of course do backup but still...)
it's got Windows 7 and NetRunner on it. csm is turned on (which I think is part of the problem) and of course secure boot and fast boot are off.
CSM? Definition plz.
I'd have to google what the acronym stands for but it's a utility in UEFI which allows 'legacy' booting, that is, booting via the MBR.
So am I as I've not bought a board with a UEFI bios on it yet. However,
there is not a single reason trinity, to my knowledge, writes anything to the MBR.
not sure what you mean: that's where some of the partitioning code used to lodge. I forget the details but something like BIOS jumps to code in the MBR which knows the partitioning scheme. UEFI, replacing BIOS, uses a different process. details cloudy. the crucial code is in a uefi-boot partition.
I don't like it defaulting to NetRunner since I wanted it to default to grub and then I could manage everything there. I'd like Windows, NetRunner (soon Maui?) and Trinity. I may remove NetRunner in the longer run but it's been fun and useful.
f.
-- Felmon Davis
Getting into trouble is easy. -- D. Winkel and F. Prosser
To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@list s.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-users-help@lists.pears oncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.pearsonco mputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputin g.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting
On Saturday 31 December 2016 17:56:59 Felmon Davis wrote:
suppose I now install Trinity. should I let it write to the mbr or rather to its own partition?
I am confused, or you are confused, or we are both confused.
Trinity is a desktop environment, not an operating system. The mbr doesn't come into it. Install the relevant operating system, with or without a DE, then install Trinity from the Trinity repositories as you would any other software from your distros repositories. Then it cannot muck up your other OS's.
It is, if you wish, possible to use one of the available Live CDs to install an OS with Trinity already installed, and the default DE, just as most Debian newbies install Debian with Gnome and most Ubuntu newbies install Ubuntu with Unity. But you don't have to do so, and I never do. I install Debian, and then add Trinity.
Lisi
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Saturday 31 December 2016 17:56:59 Felmon Davis wrote:
suppose I now install Trinity. should I let it write to the mbr or rather to its own partition?
I am confused, or you are confused, or we are both confused.
I think I am.
Trinity is a desktop environment, not an operating system.
you're right, of course. I usually install DE and OS together. thus the conflation.
The mbr doesn't come into it. Install the relevant operating system, with or without a DE, then install Trinity from the Trinity repositories as you would any other software from your distros repositories. Then it cannot muck up your other OS's.
here another point of confusion: NetRunner uses KDE4 (or KDE5, not sure).
can I really install Trinity side-by-side with it?
I figured I should format a partition and do an install of Trinity (ok, debian + trinity).
It is, if you wish, possible to use one of the available Live CDs to install an OS with Trinity already installed, and the default DE, just as most Debian newbies install Debian with Gnome and most Ubuntu newbies install Ubuntu with Unity. But you don't have to do so, and I never do. I install Debian, and then add Trinity.
I usually install exegnu which defaults to trinity as DE.
thanks for clearing my mind about an aspect of this.
so I can install OS and Trinity on separate partition.
or (?) install Trinity on top of NetRunner.
f.
as mentioned, I have Windows 7 and NetRunner; I want to add Trinity. I
like Hare's exegnu version. exegnu is what I needed to know.
however, I guess I can install Debian Live with uefi support. then load
Trinity on top of it! I think you need to find out if Windows is installed using EFI before you do anything.
I will have to check if I installed Windows via uefi. NetRunner is, I'm
pretty sure, using uefi. Don't be pretty sure, be absolutely positive.
however, you imply that there will be problems if Windows is not under
uefi. presumably I would have to boot it from the 'BIOS' instead of via grub-efi. if so, not pretty but tolerable. I don't have time right now for magic surgical operations. If Windows is installed non efi (i.e. Legacy BIOS) and other OSs are installed EFI then the PC will default to EFI boot and Windows will not be a bootable option (I had this happen with my current motherboard) If Windows is installed EFI other OSs installed Legacy BIOS will not be a bootable option because Windows EFI boot takes precedence (it was MSs attempt to kill off Linux from mainstream PCs) If Windows is installed EFI and other OSs are installed EFI then Grub EFI will become the primary bootloader and should provide you with a menu that shows the EFI bootable OSs. Windows will show up in Grub EFI as long as it was installed EFI and selecting it will initiate NTbootloader and start Windows.
So be absolutely positive how your system is setup and then come back and let us know so we can, if need be, walk you through the install.
Just as an aside does exegnu support EFI installation? if it doesn't and that is what you want to use you will need to get an iso of Devuan, and do the required research to ensure Devuan is EFI compatible, to install it and then install TDE of top of that.
On Sun, 1 Jan 2017, Michael . wrote:
as mentioned, I have Windows 7 and NetRunner; I want to add Trinity. I
like Hare's exegnu version. exegnu is what I needed to know.
however, I guess I can install Debian Live with uefi support. then load
Trinity on top of it! I think you need to find out if Windows is installed using EFI before you do anything.
I will have to check if I installed Windows via uefi. NetRunner is, I'm
pretty sure, using uefi. Don't be pretty sure, be absolutely positive.
I have CSM enabled; I installed Windows 7 then on the MBR. subsequently I installed NetRunner. the computer boots by default to NR.
when I go to 'BIOS' or whatever it's now called, there are two options for NR, one is marked 'uefi os'.
the option for Windows is not so marked.
I infer NR is uefi while Windows is not.
however, you imply that there will be problems if Windows is not under
uefi. presumably I would have to boot it from the 'BIOS' instead of via grub-efi. if so, not pretty but tolerable. I don't have time right now for magic surgical operations. If Windows is installed non efi (i.e. Legacy BIOS) and other OSs are installed EFI then the PC will default to EFI boot and Windows will not be a bootable option (I had this happen with my current motherboard)
in my case Windows is a "bootable option" but I think you mean "bootable from grub"?
If Windows is installed EFI other OSs installed Legacy BIOS will not be a bootable option because Windows EFI boot takes precedence (it was MSs attempt to kill off Linux from mainstream PCs) If Windows is installed EFI and other OSs are installed EFI then Grub EFI will become the primary bootloader and should provide you with a menu that shows the EFI bootable OSs. Windows will show up in Grub EFI as long as it was installed EFI and selecting it will initiate NTbootloader and start Windows.
ok. this is pretty clear. to fix it so grub-efi works I'll have to re-install Windows 7.
So be absolutely positive how your system is setup and then come back and let us know so we can, if need be, walk you through the install.
Just as an aside does exegnu support EFI installation?
this I do not know - it was one motive for my caution.
if it doesn't and that is what you want to use you will need to get an iso of Devuan, and do the required research to ensure Devuan is EFI compatible, to install it and then install TDE of top of that.
well, Lisi suggested I could use some standard live Debian disk. I guess exegnu is now restricted to Devuan? I'll check. not absolutely married to it but it's been my standard.
I installed NR only because I was in a bit of a rush in that moment and didn't want to fool around with getting up the wifi drivers - exegnu live doesn't see the wifi whereas NR does 'out of the box'. once up I just decided to go with the install and see how NR worked. (I used it for a spell some yrs ago.)
f.
On Saturday 31 December 2016 22:29:07 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Saturday 31 December 2016 17:56:59 Felmon Davis wrote:
suppose I now install Trinity. should I let it write to the mbr or rather to its own partition?
I am confused, or you are confused, or we are both confused.
I think I am.
Trinity is a desktop environment, not an operating system.
you're right, of course. I usually install DE and OS together. thus the conflation.
The mbr doesn't come into it. Install the relevant operating system, with or without a DE, then install Trinity from the Trinity repositories as you would any other software from your distros repositories. Then it cannot muck up your other OS's.
here another point of confusion: NetRunner uses KDE4 (or KDE5, not sure).
can I really install Trinity side-by-side with it?
TDE does not always go well with KDE 4+. I personally tend to avoid putting those two together. But others will know more about this than I do. One can certainly normally install extra DEs, but this may be a case where it does not go well, both for the reason I have given and because the two (DE and OS) do appear to be rather entangled in this case.
I figured I should format a partition and do an install of Trinity (ok, debian + trinity).
That might be simpler, so long as you are clear that Debian with Trinity is not the same thing as an OS called Trinity!
It is, if you wish, possible to use one of the available Live CDs to install an OS with Trinity already installed, and the default DE, just as most Debian newbies install Debian with Gnome and most Ubuntu newbies install Ubuntu with Unity. But you don't have to do so, and I never do. I install Debian, and then add Trinity.
I usually install exegnu which defaults to trinity as DE.
It does for now. It went through a phase of having LXDE available as well. This strikes me as a good choice. Named after a rather beautiful place, too! But you are still installing an OS and a DE, and could install other additional DEs after installation if you wished.
thanks for clearing my mind about an aspect of this.
so I can install OS and Trinity on separate partition.
Yes.
or (?) install Trinity on top of NetRunner.
In general one can, but I fear that this may be the exception that proves the rule. :-( Anyone?? I don't know NetRunner, and had to look it up. I am always cautious about mixing any version of KDE and Trinity. To do so would certainly not muck up your mbr, but it might muck up your NetRunner!
Lisi
On Sun, 1 Jan 2017, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Saturday 31 December 2016 22:29:07 Felmon Davis wrote:
...
here another point of confusion: NetRunner uses KDE4 (or KDE5, not sure).
can I really install Trinity side-by-side with it?
TDE does not always go well with KDE 4+. I personally tend to avoid putting those two together. But others will know more about this than I do. One can certainly normally install extra DEs, but this may be a case where it does not go well, both for the reason I have given and because the two (DE and OS) do appear to be rather entangled in this case.
'entangled'. my impression also.
I figured I should format a partition and do an install of Trinity (ok, debian + trinity).
That might be simpler, so long as you are clear that Debian with Trinity is not the same thing as an OS called Trinity!
got it!
It is, if you wish, possible to use one of the available Live CDs to install an OS with Trinity already installed, and the default DE, just as most Debian newbies install Debian with Gnome and most Ubuntu newbies install Ubuntu with Unity. But you don't have to do so, and I never do. I install Debian, and then add Trinity.
I usually install exegnu which defaults to trinity as DE.
It does for now. It went through a phase of having LXDE available as well. This strikes me as a good choice. Named after a rather beautiful place, too!
sorry: what place is it named after?
I believe (belated) well-wishing for a great new year is due? I watched online some celebrations from Germany (some people dear to me are there) so I feel my new yrs stuff is done too.
f.
Greg M On 12/31/2016 01:29 PM, Felmon Davis wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Saturday 31 December 2016 17:56:59 Felmon Davis wrote:
suppose I now install Trinity. should I let it write to the mbr or rather to its own partition?
I am confused, or you are confused, or we are both confused.
I think I am.
Trinity is a desktop environment, not an operating system.
you're right, of course. I usually install DE and OS together. thus the conflation.
The mbr doesn't come into it. Install the relevant operating system, with or without a DE, then install Trinity from the Trinity repositories as you would any other software from your distros repositories. Then it cannot muck up your other OS's.
updating/installing grub might solve the lack of grub boot screen. I would use the 'dry-run' option..os-prober is the part that looks for all the other OS's installed so grub can build a multiboot scenario.
Debian has no issues with uefi, at least stretch.
ps multiboot is the old way, if you have the hardware, virtualization works great. I use Debian with Win7 as a guest..runs fine..caveat, I have an OEM Win7 disk.,
greg
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016, Greg Madden wrote:
updating/installing grub might solve the lack of grub boot screen. I would use the 'dry-run' option..os-prober is the part that looks for all the other OS's installed so grub can build a multiboot scenario.
certainly worth a try!
Debian has no issues with uefi, at least stretch.
good.
ps multiboot is the old way, if you have the hardware, virtualization works great. I use Debian with Win7 as a guest..runs fine..caveat, I have an OEM Win7 disk.,
yeah, I have a VM running under NetRunner too. I bought a copy of Windows 7 pretty cheap and got a license.
for no good reason, maybe mainly just lack of familiarity with VM, I'm inclined to keep 'the old way' available.
I do agree that the VM works nicely. I need it to work with the school's classroom projectors (hdmi) and this I haven't tested yet.
f.
Some things need to be cleared up. 1) UEFI does not use MBR (Master Boot Record), UEFI uses GPT (GUID Partition Table). 2) GPT can, and does, work in some newer BIOSs but not all. 3) I have never seen, or heard of, any instance where an OS installed in Legacy BIOS is visible on a UEFI boot. Please verify your install of Windows 7 is installed on BIOS and is an option on Grub EFI. 4) AFAIK Windows does not recognise non MS OSs in its bootloader, to have multiple options that include non MS OSs you must use a non MS bootloader as the primary bootloader (i.e. GRUB) which will then initiate the MS bootloader (NT bootloader) to boot MS OS installs. As mentioned above by someone else using os-prober will let GRUB know if there are other OSs installed. 5) Using a VM is a drain on RAM, you need enough RAM to run the host OS and then enough to run the Virtual OS inside the VM. If you are using a VM to run an MS OS most of your RAM will need to be reserved for the MS OS. In my experience unless you have alot of RAM this will negatively affect performance. There is a general move towards Hypervisors (Zen being an excellent open source option) but even these are host machines with virtualised OSs and the same RAM issues apply.
On 1 January 2017 at 13:40, Felmon Davis davisf@union.edu wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016, Greg Madden wrote:
updating/installing grub might solve the lack of grub boot screen. I
would use the 'dry-run' option..os-prober is the part that looks for all the other OS's installed so grub can build a multiboot scenario.
certainly worth a try!
Debian has no issues with uefi, at least stretch.
good.
ps multiboot is the old way, if you have the hardware, virtualization
works great. I use Debian with Win7 as a guest..runs fine..caveat, I have an OEM Win7 disk.,
yeah, I have a VM running under NetRunner too. I bought a copy of Windows 7 pretty cheap and got a license.
for no good reason, maybe mainly just lack of familiarity with VM, I'm inclined to keep 'the old way' available.
I do agree that the VM works nicely. I need it to work with the school's classroom projectors (hdmi) and this I haven't tested yet.
f.
-- Felmon Davis
For courage mounteth with occasion. -- William Shakespeare, "King John"
To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@list s.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-users-help@lists.pears oncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.pearsonco mputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputin g.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting
On Sun, 1 Jan 2017, Michael . wrote:
Some things need to be cleared up.
- UEFI does not use MBR (Master Boot Record), UEFI uses GPT (GUID
Partition Table). 2) GPT can, and does, work in some newer BIOSs but not all. 3) I have never seen, or heard of, any instance where an OS installed in Legacy BIOS is visible on a UEFI boot. Please verify your install of Windows 7 is installed on BIOS and is an option on Grub EFI.
Windows is not visible in grub (as I noted). it is visible of course in the BIOS.
parted tells me the disk is MBR. it says, "Partition Table: msdos."
- AFAIK Windows does not recognise non MS OSs in its bootloader, to have
multiple options that include non MS OSs you must use a non MS bootloader as the primary bootloader (i.e. GRUB) which will then initiate the MS bootloader (NT bootloader) to boot MS OS installs. As mentioned above by someone else using os-prober will let GRUB know if there are other OSs installed.
weirdly in NetRunner os-prober gives no feedback. it is installed.
- Using a VM is a drain on RAM, you need enough RAM to run the host OS and
then enough to run the Virtual OS inside the VM.
it's ok, the laptop has 8 gb ram.
so it's not running gpt, thus no uefi.
the BIOS though has two entries for NetRunner, one indicating uefi-os. I also see uefi files in /boot.
recall csm legacy is enabled.
I'm going to hold off and study the situation. my window for playing around is drawing closed for now, so may re-visit next weekend.
I don't know why grub doesn't see Windows. I can't do it right now but I'll try grub-update, as suggested, at my next opportunity.
f.
If you are using a VM to run an MS OS most of your RAM will need to be reserved for the MS OS. In my experience unless you have alot of RAM this will negatively affect performance. There is a general move towards Hypervisors (Zen being an excellent open source option) but even these are host machines with virtualised OSs and the same RAM issues apply.
On 1 January 2017 at 13:40, Felmon Davis davisf@union.edu wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016, Greg Madden wrote:
updating/installing grub might solve the lack of grub boot screen. I
would use the 'dry-run' option..os-prober is the part that looks for all the other OS's installed so grub can build a multiboot scenario.
certainly worth a try!
Debian has no issues with uefi, at least stretch.
good.
ps multiboot is the old way, if you have the hardware, virtualization
works great. I use Debian with Win7 as a guest..runs fine..caveat, I have an OEM Win7 disk.,
yeah, I have a VM running under NetRunner too. I bought a copy of Windows 7 pretty cheap and got a license.
for no good reason, maybe mainly just lack of familiarity with VM, I'm inclined to keep 'the old way' available.
I do agree that the VM works nicely. I need it to work with the school's classroom projectors (hdmi) and this I haven't tested yet.
f.
-- Felmon Davis
For courage mounteth with occasion. -- William Shakespeare, "King John"
To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@list s.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-users-help@lists.pears oncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.pearsonco mputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputin g.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting
-
Felmon Davis -
Gene Heskett -
Greg Madden -
Lisi Reisz -
Michael .