25 Apr
2020
25 Apr
'20
12:35 p.m.
On Saturday 25 April 2020 04:04:09 deloptes wrote:
Slávek Banko wrote:
Ideally, out of respect to those readers who want to be about ONLY TDE-Trinity
technical matters (and NOTHING MORE): We really ought to have something like
a forum, where such matters can be given free rein, without annoying them who
don't want to read our dreaming and scheming. Readers can just skim over the
threads, and choose what to read, or not. When it's like this, where
everything gets sent out to the mailing list, and annoys some of the
subscribers, well that's just not good for anybody concerned. But so this is
where we are, and we can try to deal with it. Apologies to all who take
offense; what follows is both verbose and prolix, and moreover, uses too many
words.
Myself, I would agree that less involvement with the business side of matters
is definitely preferable. Who, after all, wants to keep the accounts, pay for
servers, hosting, etc.? However, somebody does something now, or we wouldn't
be here; so it seems to me that it is rather a question of how to bring it
all out into the open, allowing members to get involved, if they have
something to contribute in the way of resource, skills, background,
knowledge, or useful business/legal connections. I do not want to see TDE
taken over by a gang of Suits, who only see it from the point of view of
business; I believe any business or legal arrangements ought to serve the
collective interests of furthering development of the Trinity desktop, rather
than TDE serving business or similar interests in profit or whatever.
However, to take only the matter of branding: If TDE is to be circulated and
promoted along side other desktops, gets included in the mainstream
repositories such as Debian, Ubuntu, etc., then we will eventually be forced
to establish copyright over logos, and any other unique details of design,
and so on. This means that we will need at least some involvement in the
dirty world of business. Otherwise, we create polo shirts and coffee mugs and
mouse mats: but for what purpose, except to raise a little money, to keep
development going forward, to ensure that TDE will still be available in the
future, so that we all don't end up being forced to use ... ? some other
desktop?
If I recall, Mozilla (for example) is, or used to be, a non-profit
organization. Just because a business is set up as a non-profit doesn't mean
that they cannot make money; it just means that the nature of their business
aims primarily at a public good, or a service to community. Some non-profit
businesses in the US can make BILLIONS of dollars (e.g., hospitals and such);
so much so, that the notion of "non-profit" seems rather like a word-game,
that it is really just a trick to avoid taxes, and meanwhile the smaller
non-profit businesses are sometimes overburdened with paperwork.
In any case, there is no point in creating T-shirts, or any other items with
TDE logo, name, catch-phrases, etc., if we do not consider these matters of
branding and copyright. We might recall that Mozilla got all upset not so
much that other people forked their project to create Seamonkey, Iceweasel,
Icecat, etc.; but rather that they wanted changes in both name and logos. It
was a conflict over branding and who owns the logos and names. And to take
care of those matters, we will need some sort of legal framework and business
structure; as well as a name, a place, and local address to call home, where
mail gets sent, and so on. That can be a post office box, and whoever
collects the mail can also keep the books, so long as there are some
guidelines.
And I agree with Nik that it seems best to avoid US jurisdictions, if
possible. (I hear, through the grapevine, that Delaware is a good state to
incorporate for businesses; I don't know if it is preferable for non-profits,
but the information can be found.) In any case, we might think hard before
establishing business in the US. Wait until the dust settles from all the
weirdness going on here in the States ... say, another 20 or 30 years? ...
before putting down roots here in the US, and our states might not be
called "united" by that time. Moreover, legislators have very little
understanding of their computers and smartphones actually work: witness the
controversies over encryption and such.
But then, so we decide (for example) to keep it as simple as possible, to use
a fiscal host (as Slavek recommends). Now let's say that somebody in Germany
has set up an operation to manufacture and sell T-shirts and polo shirts;
another person, in France, is creating coffee mugs, some others in Russia
have made TDE mouse mats; and meanwhile we have people in the US who want to
buy these items, or otherwise contribute some money to the cause. How do we
establish our name, slogans or catch-phrases, any kind of design copyright,
unless we have some kind of legal framework, business structure, and a local
address in some nation or other? Moreover, when these cottage industries
manufacture TDE swag, how do we funnel the extra funds (above basic expenses)
into an account where it may be used to further the development of TDE? Or
shall we expect that these various operations will just hand it over out of
the goodness of their hearts? What if they decide unilaterally to change
something in design of TDE logo, name, slogans, etc.? for example, to promote
a private agenda (political, religious, etc.), or if their products are just
plain crap, and an embarrassment to the rest of us?
All of these issues imply the need of some kind of legal framework and
business structure. And I, out of everybody here, avoid that stuff like the
plague. Nothing kills creativity so fast as when, for example, a group of
Suits walk into a recording session; and I don't imagine that the Suits are
much different in any other kind of creative work. But there it is. We need
to have some kind of place, a locale in the real world, and this means
getting entangled with local laws and government and business practices.
As for *where* might be most suitable for our needs? I don't know,
Switzerland? Belize? Grenada? the Bahamas? I hear that there are some
abandoned or unclaimed rigs off the coast of the UK and Europe, and there is
some spot of land that is not claimed by any nation, somewhere in Eastern
Europe, if I recall. We could wait and hope that somebody discovers the
mythical kingdom of Shambala ... that's always a possibility.
Apologies for the length, but that's my rant.
Bill
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Hi Nik, all,
I dare to disagree with a number of opinions.
Tim founded the project, Tim was its leader, Tim agreed to hand over the
role of project leader. As far as I know, there is no registered
trademark for which Tim would be its holder. Therefore, I believe that
there is no reason to claim that only Tim is the legal holder for
project. Tim, as an ordinary natural person, handed over the role of
project leader, so I don't find a reason to call it a fork.
Similar to your opinion that only Tim is legal to accept donations. Tim
is only a natural person and so far he accepts donations as a natural
person on some of his account. He is not an organization. He is the
founder of the project. A project for which other natural persons have
taken responsibility for its continuation.
I do not agree that the only way for a TDE project to accept donations
and manage funds is to create our own organization. Obviously, there are
at least two possible variants:
1. Create our own organization and take responsibility for all legal
matters relating to the status of the organization.
2. Leave the project as a team and use a fiscal host. This is the same
principle as projects associated with organizations such as the Freedom
Software Conservancy, the Apache Foundation, the Linux Foundation and
also Open Collective.
As I see in the comments from others involved in the discussion, for the
creation of our own organization, some claim that it is quite simple,
others claim that there are many problem points - the choice of
continent, country, state, legislation,... so a lot of problems. Do you
really want to deal with that? In addition, do you really want to deal
with the fact that it will then be necessary to monitor changes in the
legislation of a selected country so that the organization does not
neglect any new regulations of the law? Who would want to do that?
Because it is important for us to work on a project and not to deal with
legal matters, bookkeeping, and so on, the option with a fiscal host
seems to me to be definitely more advantageous.
Hi Slavek,
I understand the people here are discussing just in theory what could be
doable, where, how and when. It looks like many people care about TDE and
it might be the concern they have about the future of TDE.
I let you explain if you wish how the future looks like, but may be (I have
not looked at the TDE page) there are all the details explained (if not it
is worth putting it down). I tend to remember that replacement of Tim was
publicly announced.
On the other hand I was looking with some friends into the regulations
regarding NGOs in Austria fiew years ago, and they are really appealing. It
is almost no cost and offers benefits if you want to get funds, do charity
or support an idea.
Originally the thread was about T-shirts and pollos and they started
looking into how such things (for example your favorite coffee mug) can be
sold and support TDE. This is not a bad idea at all, if someone wants to do
the administrative part.
For example it can be that Nic takes the responsibility to do the paper
work in Austria and someone else (Thiery) organizes the shirts and
whatever.
I think it should be clear, that nither you nor whoever from the developers
and the people working on the project can and want to spend time on such
activities.
In any case it is interesting to read.