Gmail's UI is confusing garbage... I somehow managed to send this reply only to Michele, and not the list
On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 3:14 AM Michele Calgaro michele.calgaro@yahoo.it wrote:
Thanks for the info. KJobViewer autostart is dependant on tdeprintrc:Jobs:KeepWindow property, so you can set that to false rather than remove the file, otherwise the next build may reisntall the desktop autostart file. Still we will need to see why cups is pulled in if built without support for it. I have created an issue on TGW as a reminder https://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org/gitea/TDE/tdelibs/issues/78
Every distro would have it, so it's not something that would get noticed. I was thinking, I might well be the only person here that doesn't have CUPS. I'm a stubborn dinosaur... I'll have only what I want, how I want it, and where I want it :-)
The option to disable Cups does allow tdelibs to build, at least. It was never a problem for me before this change, perhaps kjobviewer was just silently failing to load (I don't think I've ever seen it, even on my Manjaro gaming setup where I do have Cups... also a build from before the change, I'm soon going to do a new build there too). I don't remember seeing it in KDE back in the 2000's either (and you guessed it, I didn't have a printer then either)
I also saw the KJobViewer "keep window permanent" commit in tdelibs when I was looking for the cause of the changed behaviour for me, but didn't make the connection. Indeed I would expect my next build to install that .desktop file with tdebase.
Thanks for posting the report. I'm not too good at that. Will test if anything is done about it though.
On Thursday 19 March 2020 03:22:03 am Snidely Whiplash wrote:
I might well be the only person here that doesn't have CUPS.
You’re not the only one. The maintainer of CUPS (Apple employee) proposed several years back to remove, in 2020, all existing CUPS code that supports any ‘not-new’ printer. He basically ignored anyone who disagreed with him and presented rebuttals and arguments ‘for’ that were smoke and mirrors. (My interpretation, you’ll need to check the support queue yourself. But when the maintainer states that “Common” doesn’t mean “common” it’s pretty safe to say the handwriting is on the wall. Yes, unless he deleted it since, that what he wrote, and it’s also when I gave up.)
My last interaction with this CUPS issue was in ~2018 when my previously working under CUPS printer stopped working and that support queue/post was what I was ultimately pointed at to ‘help’ me. Blatantly, from my perspective, CUPS is completely useless, and will be more so after that change is made, so...
Q1: Is there a way to not install CUPS during a standard install of TDE?
Why waste the space and CPU cycles...
Q2: Anyone have a recommendation for a CUPS replacement?
There’s nothing wrong with my 7 year old printer (which I now have to send files to a windows box to print...).
Thanks All, Michael
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On 19/03/2020 16:27, Michael wrote:
On Thursday 19 March 2020 03:22:03 am Snidely Whiplash wrote:
I might well be the only person here that doesn't have CUPS.
You’re not the only one. The maintainer of CUPS (Apple employee) proposed several years back to remove, in 2020, all existing CUPS code that supports any ‘not-new’ printer. He basically ignored anyone who disagreed with him and presented rebuttals and arguments ‘for’ that were smoke and mirrors. (My interpretation, you’ll need to check the support queue yourself. But when the maintainer states that “Common” doesn’t mean “common” it’s pretty safe to say the handwriting is on the wall. Yes, unless he deleted it since, that what he wrote, and it’s also when I gave up.)
Sadly, a lot of developers seem to be like that, take Debian for example. Not all of course :)
My last interaction with this CUPS issue was in ~2018 when my previously working under CUPS printer stopped working and that support queue/post was what I was ultimately pointed at to ‘help’ me. Blatantly, from my perspective, CUPS is completely useless, and will be more so after that change is made, so...
Q1: Is there a way to not install CUPS during a standard install of TDE?
Why waste the space and CPU cycles...
Q2: Anyone have a recommendation for a CUPS replacement?
There’s nothing wrong with my 7 year old printer (which I now have to send files to a windows box to print...).
Which printer is it?
On Thursday 19 March 2020 11:40:28 am Michael Howard via trinity-users wrote:
On 19/03/2020 16:27, Michael wrote:
There’s nothing wrong with my 7 year old printer (which I now have to send files to a windows box to print...).
Which printer is it?
i-don't-know, make me walk to the printer closet to look will ya!
Panasonic KX-MB2030 (Multi-Function Laser)
Eventually I want to try installing the Panasonic Windows print utility in a Windows VM. Would seem to be a complete waste, but *shrug* if it works, so be it...
Anyone ever tried that (printing from a Windows VM on a Linux box)?
Best, Michael
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On 19/03/2020 17:40, Michael wrote:
On Thursday 19 March 2020 11:40:28 am Michael Howard via trinity-users wrote:
On 19/03/2020 16:27, Michael wrote:
There’s nothing wrong with my 7 year old printer (which I now have to send files to a windows box to print...).
Which printer is it?
i-don't-know, make me walk to the printer closet to look will ya!
Panasonic KX-MB2030 (Multi-Function Laser)
Ah, a GDI printer. GDI is a microsoft system and the printer expects most of the processing to be done from within Windows, so in this case, it's really not the fault of CUPS but that of the printer really.
Eventually I want to try installing the Panasonic Windows print utility in a Windows VM. Would seem to be a complete waste, but *shrug* if it works, so be it...
Anyone ever tried that (printing from a Windows VM on a Linux box)?
If you have windows already, or with a new installation (either real or virtual) just share the printer and let Windows do the processing.
On Thursday 19 March 2020 02:21:32 pm Michael Howard via trinity-users wrote:
On 19/03/2020 17:40, Michael wrote:
On Thursday 19 March 2020 11:40:28 am Michael Howard via trinity-users
wrote:
On 19/03/2020 16:27, Michael wrote:
There’s nothing wrong with my 7 year old printer (which I now have to send files to a windows box to print...).
Which printer is it?
i-don't-know, make me walk to the printer closet to look will ya!
Panasonic KX-MB2030 (Multi-Function Laser)
Ah, a GDI printer. GDI is a microsoft system and the printer expects most of the processing to be done from within Windows, so in this case, it's really not the fault of CUPS but that of the printer really.
Ah, but it use to print fine from CentOS 6 up to about 2016/2017. It wasn't even that hard to setup, extract some file(s) from the Win software, drop them into Linux, and CUPS just worked. Now CUPS flips you the bird and will no longer print to it.
Eventually I want to try installing the Panasonic Windows print utility in a Windows VM. Would seem to be a complete waste, but *shrug* if it works, so be it...
Anyone ever tried that (printing from a Windows VM on a Linux box)?
If you have windows already, or with a new installation (either real or virtual) just share the printer and let Windows do the processing.
Cool!
Thanks, Michael
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Michael Howard via trinity-users wrote:
Ah, a GDI printer. GDI is a microsoft system and the printer expects most of the processing to be done from within Windows, so in this case, it's really not the fault of CUPS but that of the printer really.
Eventually I want to try installing the Panasonic Windows print utility in a Windows VM. Would seem to be a complete waste, but *shrug* if it works, so be it...
Anyone ever tried that (printing from a Windows VM on a Linux box)?
If you have windows already, or with a new installation (either real or virtual) just share the printer and let Windows do the processing.
A guy buys windows crap and complains about support!
Another one said recently "inexpensive" is "cheep" and "cheep" is shit.
I was using a 15y/o HP 4L until last year, when it finally gave up and maintenance cost was higher than buying a new one.
Buy a decent printer and be happy. I bought HP 402dn - will work the next 15y. It pays off over time, believe me.
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On Thursday 19 March 2020 22.44:49 deloptes wrote:
I was using a 15y/o HP 4L until last year, when it finally gave up and maintenance cost was higher than buying a new one.
Buy a decent printer and be happy. I bought HP 402dn - will work the next 15y. It pays off over time, believe me.
I don't know how it is where you live, but here I manage to buy second hand HP 4200 or 4250 quite cheap, they run fine and the 8000 pages toner is not much more expensive than 2000 pages for other printers.
OK, the printers are bulky but...
I also got a 401dn that I can move if necessary - tends to jam but is very fast.
I've been a fan of HP printers for years.
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On Thursday 19 March 2020 05:04:11 pm Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Thursday 19 March 2020 22.44:49 deloptes wrote:
A guy buys windows crap and complains about support!
Yes, I bought windows crap. No I’m not complaining about support.
I’m complaining about the removal of existing, working code. I’m complaining about the Window’s (&Apple) attitude of, “Fuck them, I’ll break it so they have to buy new,” that has migrated into the Linux work ethic and value system.
I was using a 15y/o HP 4L until last year, when it finally gave up and maintenance cost was higher than buying a new one.
Buy a decent printer and be happy. I bought HP 402dn - will work the next 15y. It pays off over time, believe me.
I don't know how it is where you live, but here I manage to buy second hand HP 4200 or 4250 quite cheap, they run fine and the 8000 pages toner is not much more expensive than 2000 pages for other printers.
OK, the printers are bulky but...
I also got a 401dn that I can move if necessary - tends to jam but is very fast.
I've been a fan of HP printers for years.
Thank you both for the HP recommendations. For those of us with basically no knowledge of printers it’s very helpful. (Sadly, yes, I’m the equivalent of a typical teenage girl buying a car with respect to purchasing printers.)
Best, Michael
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On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:12:56 -0500 Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:
On Thursday 19 March 2020 05:04:11 pm Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Thursday 19 March 2020 22.44:49 deloptes wrote:
I was using a 15y/o HP 4L until last year, when it finally gave up and maintenance cost was higher than buying a new one.
Buy a decent printer and be happy. I bought HP 402dn - will work the next 15y. It pays off over time, believe me.
I don't know how it is where you live, but here I manage to buy second hand HP 4200 or 4250 quite cheap, they run fine and the 8000 pages toner is not much more expensive than 2000 pages for other printers.
OK, the printers are bulky but...
I also got a 401dn that I can move if necessary - tends to jam but is very fast.
I've been a fan of HP printers for years.
Thank you both for the HP recommendations. For those of us with basically no knowledge of printers it’s very helpful. (Sadly, yes, I’m the equivalent of a typical teenage girl buying a car with respect to purchasing printers.)
I find the best thing to do is look for any printer that supports PostScript, since that means it can use generic drivers that aren't likely to be dropped from CUPS any time soon.
E. Liddell
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E. Liddell wrote:
I find the best thing to do is look for any printer that supports PostScript, since that means it can use generic drivers that aren't likely to be dropped from CUPS any time soon.
This is AFAIK another crap advise. OF course if a printer supports PS it would works in linux - especially if it was 2002.
Just buy a decent printer that is known to be working - there are cheaper or more expensive once that work pretty well. Some manufacturers are more linux friendly like HP, but also some of their low budget printers are crap.
PS support BTW makes a printer unnecessary expensive. Look here - it is called emulation now days https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c04324001
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On Saturday 21 March 2020 01.14:27 deloptes wrote:
Some manufacturers are more linux friendly like HP, but also some of their
low budget printers are crap.
If it's like their scanner, the cheaper ones are not from HP, they are rebranded from other makers...
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On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 01:14:27 +0100 deloptes deloptes@gmail.com wrote:
E. Liddell wrote:
I find the best thing to do is look for any printer that supports PostScript, since that means it can use generic drivers that aren't likely to be dropped from CUPS any time soon.
This is AFAIK another crap advise. OF course if a printer supports PS it would works in linux - especially if it was 2002.
Just buy a decent printer that is known to be working - there are cheaper or more expensive once that work pretty well. Some manufacturers are more linux friendly like HP, but also some of their low budget printers are crap.
Sooner or later, support for the printer-specific driver will end--if only because the developers no longer have the hardware to test it on! PS provides a guarantee that the printer will continue to function at a useful level until the hardware dies. *Yes*, the PostScript driver may not support all the printer's features, but most people don't need the fancy bits anyway for most of what they print.
E. Liddell
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E. Liddell wrote:
Sooner or later, support for the printer-specific driver will end--if only because the developers no longer have the hardware to test it on! PS provides a guarantee that the printer will continue to function at a useful level until the hardware dies. *Yes*, the PostScript driver may not support all the printer's features, but most people don't need the fancy bits anyway for most of what they print.
E. Liddell
What I wanted to point out that this PS thing is past. The patent licenses and hardware costs were too hight. This is why now we have emulated PS, because meanwhile CPU and ROM are much cheaper and the printer has more of them and can do the conversion.
Even my old 4L, that I gave up last year did not support PS (cheap model from 1998), but worked perfectly well and the linux/cups driver still exists.
The problem with windows printer is, that a proprietary software must run on the host to drive the printers hardware, cause manufacturer is saving on hard/software on the printer this way. Imagine you install the software on the windows PC - you need to write this software once and no expensive CPU and ROM in the printer. If you want just a driver on the PC - you need more CPU and ROM on the printer to do the conversion and drive the hardware.
So what people did is hack this proprietary software to make it run under linux and perhaps those hacks violate copy rights or licenses or whatever or are unmaintainable or as you say the crap was sent to Africa and can not be tested anymore.
In any case it is not about PS, but decent hardware - it costs more, but pays off with time. For example my previous HP 4L served from 1999 - 2019. The cost was perhaps 200,- - it is 10,-/y. I replaced toner 3 times - cost 3*60=180,- - makes 9,-/y Can I live with that 19,-/y (1.59/month w/o the paper) for printing? This is the question.
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Michael wrote:
On Thursday 19 March 2020 05:04:11 pm Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Thursday 19 March 2020 22.44:49 deloptes wrote:
A guy buys windows crap and complains about support!
Yes, I bought windows crap. No I’m not complaining about support.
I’m complaining about the removal of existing, working code. I’m complaining about the Window’s (&Apple) attitude of, “Fuck them, I’ll break it so they have to buy new,” that has migrated into the Linux work ethic and value system.
most likely something hacky or unmaintainable code for printers almost no one uses under linux. I wonder what the openprinting says about the model - you'll probably understand.
And please keep in mind that no one owes you something - just the way you do not owe anybody something in the free software world.
I agree that developers could be more polite and listen to the users and I do not know the case, but next time you buy a printer, have a look at openprinting or the community to find out if it is worth buying.
And yes, I guess now you know what is best to do - sell it on EBay and buy a new working one.
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On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 12:28 PM Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:
Q1: Is there a way to not install CUPS during a standard install of TDE?
Why waste the space and CPU cycles...
Q2: Anyone have a recommendation for a CUPS replacement?
There’s nothing wrong with my 7 year old printer (which I now have to send files to a windows box to print...).
You can't completely remove CUPS on a Linux distribution, because it's a hard dependency for a lot of things. You can disable the Cups daemon from starting though (e.g. systemctl disable cups.service). Depending on your distribution, you may also be able to just have the cups libraries installed for the dependency, and not actually have the cups printing service (daemon) installed.
As for a Cups replacement, it's the standard and sometimes only printing system available on a distribution. Other printing systems tend to plug into Cups (e.g. gutenprint, foomatic). You'd be better off to look for support for your printer model and go from there. I'm sorry, I don't know a lot about printing on Linux.
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 14:06:34 -0400 Snidely Whiplash therealgrogan@gmail.com wrote:
You can't completely remove CUPS on a Linux distribution, because it's a hard dependency for a lot of things.
General-purpose binary distros fold CUPS in and include support for it in everything because they want to be a "plug-and-play" experience for people who know nothing about Linux. Linux without CUPS, however, is certainly possible--the Pi3 blinking happily to itself above my desk has never had CUPS installed, because it doesn't need it in order to fulfill its role.
E. Liddell
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On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 4:04 PM E. Liddell ejlddll@warpmail.net wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 14:06:34 -0400 Snidely Whiplash therealgrogan@gmail.com wrote:
You can't completely remove CUPS on a Linux distribution, because it's a hard dependency for a lot of things.
General-purpose binary distros fold CUPS in and include support for it in everything because they want to be a "plug-and-play" experience for people who know nothing about Linux. Linux without CUPS, however, is certainly possible--the Pi3 blinking happily to itself above my desk has never had CUPS installed, because it doesn't need it in order to fulfill its role.
It depends what packages you install from a distribution of course. I meant in context of desktop usage. Any desktop environment you install from distro packages is likely to have Cups libraries as a dependency. Similarly for software like LibreOffice (I compile my own and have to pass --disable-cups on this system.)
On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 02:08:22 -0400 Snidely Whiplash therealgrogan@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 4:04 PM E. Liddell ejlddll@warpmail.net wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 14:06:34 -0400 Snidely Whiplash therealgrogan@gmail.com wrote:
You can't completely remove CUPS on a Linux distribution, because it's a hard dependency for a lot of things.
General-purpose binary distros fold CUPS in and include support for it in everything because they want to be a "plug-and-play" experience for people who know nothing about Linux. Linux without CUPS, however, is certainly possible--the Pi3 blinking happily to itself above my desk has never had CUPS installed, because it doesn't need it in order to fulfill its role.
It depends what packages you install from a distribution of course. I meant in context of desktop usage. Any desktop environment you install from distro packages is likely to have Cups libraries as a dependency. Similarly for software like LibreOffice (I compile my own and have to pass --disable-cups on this system.)
Any desktop environment? Let's see:
TDE? CUPS should be optional, barring bugs.
XFCE? Nope, no CUPS deps in the base environment (not even optional).
LXDE/LXQT? Same.
Mate? Same (granted, packages for it are a bit out-of-date in Gentoo)
Gnome? Needs a patch to make CUPS fully optional for gnome control center, and there are a couple of other optional dependencies.
KDE? CUPS is required unconditionally by xdg-desktop-portal-kde.
So only KDE and Gnome could be said to require it, and Gnome is a bit iffy.
Of course, Gentoo is not a binary distribution. With the package manager compiling pretty much everything locally, I have a lot more freedom, at the cost of slower installation times.
Interestingly, even gutenprint can be compiled without CUPS support, although I'm not altogether sure why you'd want to.
E. Liddell
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deloptes -
E. Liddell -
Michael -
Michael Howard via trinity-users -
Snidely Whiplash -
Thierry de Coulon