Greets, everybody . . .
Insomnia led me to this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6C8QTf7GLfs
In case you don't want to watch it (though Christopher Barnatt is highly enjoyable), it is the quick and easy construction of an ARM desktop PC, which seems pretty cool and which is both inexpensive and uses next to no electricity.
It automagically installs Debian with KDE.
My desktop machine is approaching 10 years old. Some drives will need replacement soon. Seeing this video, I wondered if a different approach might be in order.
But I'm unclear as to the cross compatibility of the architectures. There are a few concerns I have, the two main ones being the Proton applications and TDE. (I've been spoiled in that almost everything -- but not Proton stuff -- has worked perfectly on the Raspberry Pi.)
So, there being substantial knowledge here, I have a question: Why is it a bad idea to build an ARM-based desktop machine?
Thanks.
dep Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
Anno domini 2024 Sun, 11 Aug 07:57:39 +0000 dep via tde-users scripsit:
Greets, everybody . . . [...] So, there being substantial knowledge here, I have a question: Why is it a bad idea to build an ARM-based desktop machine?
It's not a bad idea, in fact it's quite a sane decision if you can live with the constraints. Firefox is a slug (but tuat's platform independent) and you have lag, when you run off an sd card and more lag when you run of usb storage. But when you habe a eMMC or PCI or better SATA interface you have a nice system - that is, as long as you stay away from systemd.
Nik
Thanks.
dep Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/ ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
On Sunday 11 August 2024 09.57:39 dep via tde-users wrote:
So, there being substantial knowledge here, I have a question: Why is it a bad idea to build an ARM-based desktop machine?
From my experience with various ARM-based SBCs:
- Performance claims tend to be exagerated (latest Pi5 is quite good though) - Very little proprietary software are compiled for ARM
So, as long as you can be sure that the performance of the CPU/GPU suits your needs, and you rely only on software that are available in the distribution you use, I can see no reason it would be a bad idea.
But as a matter of fact, all my ARM based devices until now have been secondary machines and those I really depend on use "Intel" processors (AMD actually at the time).
This ITX system seems interresting anyway.
Thierry
On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 07:57:39 +0000 dep via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
But I'm unclear as to the cross compatibility of the architectures. There are a few concerns I have, the two main ones being the Proton applications and TDE.
Proton will never work—it's a patchset over WINE, which is a translator of system calls for x86 and descendant architectures only.
TDE should be fine.
Some other popular software that definitely won't work: several Chrome-based browsers (Chrome itself, Vivaldi, Edge, Opera), a number of messaging applications like Slack and the desktop version of Skype, many non-Proton games, EagleCAD. Some of those may run inside qemu, but only with a painful speed penalty.
The Pi is an ARM system, so if it works on a Pi, it works on ARM. Conversely, if it doesn't work on a popular and well-supported SBC like the Pi, it's unlikely to work on other ARM systems.
E. Liddell
said E. Liddell via tde-users: | On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 07:57:39 +0000 | | dep via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote: | > But I'm unclear as to the cross compatibility of the architectures. | > There are a few concerns I have, the two main ones being the Proton | > applications and TDE. | | Proton will never work—it's a patchset over WINE, which is a translator | of system calls for x86 and descendant architectures only.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant the Proton security and privacy products -- mail, passwords, vpn, and drive. Some are available via web interface. The ones that are troublesome are ProtonMail, because I prefer to store my mail locally, which I can do with KMail via the ProtonMail Bridge on X86 and likely can't with ARM. (The native and web incarnations make bottom replies damn near impossible, also.) I can also cobble together the VPN service, but it relies on OpenVPN in that implementation and makes switching servers a giant pita.
| Some other popular software that definitely won't work: several | Chrome-based browsers (Chrome itself, Vivaldi, Edge, Opera), a number | of messaging applications like Slack and the desktop version of Skype, | many non-Proton games, EagleCAD. Some of those may run inside | qemu, but only with a painful speed penalty.
Hmmm. I've run Chromium, Opera, Vivaldi, Firefox, and so on with no difficulty on my Pi5 machines running Debian.
| The Pi is an ARM system, so if it works on a Pi, it works on ARM. | Conversely, if it doesn't work on a popular and well-supported SBC like | the Pi, it's unlikely to work on other ARM systems.
I guess I'm hoping to some extent that the move to RISC systems will be great enough that developers will be pretty much forced to support them. Having been an OS/2 user and on Linux since 1998 I'm accustomed to kludges and workarounds, but there are a few things out with which I will not do.
I have TDE on the Pi machines, no problem. So I guess it comes down to the Proton products (again, the privacy and security applications, not games).
On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 21:04:36 +0000 dep via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
said E. Liddell via tde-users: | On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 07:57:39 +0000 | | dep via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote: | > But I'm unclear as to the cross compatibility of the architectures. | > There are a few concerns I have, the two main ones being the Proton | > applications and TDE. | | Proton will never work—it's a patchset over WINE, which is a translator | of system calls for x86 and descendant architectures only.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant the Proton security and privacy products -- mail, passwords, vpn, and drive. Some are available via web interface. The ones that are troublesome are ProtonMail, because I prefer to store my mail locally, which I can do with KMail via the ProtonMail Bridge on X86 and likely can't with ARM. (The native and web incarnations make bottom replies damn near impossible, also.) I can also cobble together the VPN service, but it relies on OpenVPN in that implementation and makes switching servers a giant pita.
I don't know if there's anyone else here using ProtonMail, so it's likely you'll have to check their download page yourself for an ARM-friendly version of the bridge software.
You also have the option of buying up an Intel NUC or small-form-factor x86_64 box with relatively low power requirements and setting it up to do server jobs like pulling your mail across. It can be old and slow and sleep most of the time to reduce its power footprint.
| Some other popular software that definitely won't work: several | Chrome-based browsers (Chrome itself, Vivaldi, Edge, Opera), a number | of messaging applications like Slack and the desktop version of Skype, | many non-Proton games, EagleCAD. Some of those may run inside | qemu, but only with a painful speed penalty.
Hmmm. I've run Chromium, Opera, Vivaldi, Firefox, and so on with no difficulty on my Pi5 machines running Debian.
Okay, apparently no one on Gentoo cared enough to keyword Vivaldi or Opera on ARM—I just did a quick pass with grep looking for KEYWORDS="-* amd64" or similar in the tree.
E. Liddell
Am Tuesday 13 August 2024 01:08:34 schrieb E. Liddell via tde-users:
Intel NUC
this was 10y ago. Now is AliExpress with tons of chinese small factor at 1/3 the price of western rubbish. Sorry to be harsh, but this is the truth.
BR
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Anno domini 2024 Tue, 13 Aug 06:58:26 +0200 deloptes via tde-users scripsit:
Am Tuesday 13 August 2024 01:08:34 schrieb E. Liddell via tde-users:
Intel NUC
this was 10y ago. Now is AliExpress with tons of chinese small factor at 1/3 the price of western rubbish. Sorry to be harsh, but this is the truth.
+1
Now you get great SBCs with AI coprocessor and RISC-V (or ARM if you prefer). Maybe ARM is faster and can do more, but IMO the window of oppotunity for ARM is closing fast. I'm slowly moving my stuff to RISC-V, especially the embedded stuff. I still have STM32 and the like and migration takes time, but it's quite clear where the journey goes.
Just my 2¢
Nik
BR
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On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 06:58:26 +0200 deloptes emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org wrote:
Am Tuesday 13 August 2024 01:08:34 schrieb E. Liddell via tde-users:
Intel NUC
this was 10y ago. Now is AliExpress with tons of chinese small factor at 1/3 the price of western rubbish. Sorry to be harsh, but this is the truth.
You can still buy a new NUC13 off Amazon and other outlets. The aliexpress trash is cheaper, but then it always was. Looks to me like used would be sufficient for your use case anyway, and those are priced in the Pi4/Pi5 range on ebay.
E. Liddell
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dep via tde-users wrote:
But I'm unclear as to the cross compatibility of the architectures. There are a few concerns I have, the two main ones being the Proton applications and TDE. (I've been spoiled in that almost everything -- but not Proton stuff -- has worked perfectly on the Raspberry Pi.)
I actually tried this since RPi2. With RPi4 I can say, TDE works fine on ARM. I couldn't use it for daily work however, because I have a scanner with some part of the code(firmware or similar proprietary library) that required x86 32/64 arch. For the RPi4 it required the RPi kernel, because of firmware and some other stuff for periphery (display, audio etc).
So, there being substantial knowledge here, I have a question: Why is it a bad idea to build an ARM-based desktop machine?
No idea why it would not be recommended. It works fine.
BR
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deloptes -
dep -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
E. Liddell -
E. Liddell
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Thierry de Coulon