11 Aug
2024
11 Aug
'24
7:57 a.m.
Greets, everybody . . .
Insomnia led me to this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6C8QTf7GLfs
In case you don't want to watch it (though Christopher Barnatt is highly enjoyable),
it is the quick and easy construction of an ARM desktop PC, which seems pretty cool and
which is both inexpensive and uses next to no electricity.
It automagically installs Debian with KDE.
My desktop machine is approaching 10 years old. Some drives will need replacement soon.
Seeing this video, I wondered if a different approach might be in order.
But I'm unclear as to the cross compatibility of the architectures. There are a few
concerns I have, the two main ones being the Proton applications and TDE. (I've been
spoiled in that almost everything -- but not Proton stuff -- has worked perfectly on the
Raspberry Pi.)
So, there being substantial knowledge here, I have a question: Why is it a bad idea to
build an ARM-based desktop machine?
Thanks.
dep
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Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
11 Aug
11 Aug
8:11 a.m.
Anno domini 2024 Sun, 11 Aug 07:57:39 +0000
dep via tde-users scripsit:
Greets, everybody . . .
[...]
So, there being substantial knowledge here, I have a question: Why is it a bad idea to
build an ARM-based desktop machine?
It's not a bad idea, in fact it's quite a sane decision if you can live with the
constraints. Firefox is a slug (but tuat's platform independent) and you have lag,
when you run off an sd card and more lag when you run of usb storage. But when you habe a
eMMC or PCI or better SATA interface you have a nice system - that is, as long as you stay
away from systemd.
Nik
Thanks.
dep
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Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
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9:40 a.m.
On Sunday 11 August 2024 09.57:39 dep via tde-users wrote:
So, there being substantial knowledge here, I have a
question: Why is it a
bad idea to build an ARM-based desktop machine?
From my experience with various ARM-based SBCs:
- Performance claims tend to be exagerated (latest Pi5 is quite good though)
- Very little proprietary software are compiled for ARM
So, as long as you can be sure that the performance of the CPU/GPU suits your
needs, and you rely only on software that are available in the distribution
you use, I can see no reason it would be a bad idea.
But as a matter of fact, all my ARM based devices until now have been
secondary machines and those I really depend on use "Intel" processors (AMD
actually at the time).
This ITX system seems interresting anyway.
Thierry
1:09 p.m.
On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 07:57:39 +0000
dep via tde-users <users(a)trinitydesktop.org> wrote:
But I'm unclear as to the cross compatibility of
the architectures. There are a few concerns I have, the two main ones being the Proton
applications and TDE.
Proton will never work—it's a patchset over WINE, which is a translator of
system calls for x86 and descendant architectures only.
TDE should be fine.
Some other popular software that definitely won't work: several
Chrome-based browsers (Chrome itself, Vivaldi, Edge, Opera), a number
of messaging applications like Slack and the desktop version of Skype,
many non-Proton games, EagleCAD. Some of those may run inside
qemu, but only with a painful speed penalty.
The Pi is an ARM system, so if it works on a Pi, it works on ARM.
Conversely, if it doesn't work on a popular and well-supported SBC like
the Pi, it's unlikely to work on other ARM systems.
E. Liddell
9:04 p.m.
said E. Liddell via tde-users:
| On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 07:57:39 +0000
|
| dep via tde-users <users(a)trinitydesktop.org> wrote:
| > But I'm unclear as to the cross compatibility of the architectures.
| > There are a few concerns I have, the two main ones being the Proton
| > applications and TDE.
|
| Proton will never work—it's a patchset over WINE, which is a translator
| of system calls for x86 and descendant architectures only.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant the Proton security and
privacy products -- mail, passwords, vpn, and drive. Some are available
via web interface. The ones that are troublesome are ProtonMail, because I
prefer to store my mail locally, which I can do with KMail via the
ProtonMail Bridge on X86 and likely can't with ARM. (The native and web
incarnations make bottom replies damn near impossible, also.) I can also
cobble together the VPN service, but it relies on OpenVPN in that
implementation and makes switching servers a giant pita.
| Some other popular software that definitely won't work: several
| Chrome-based browsers (Chrome itself, Vivaldi, Edge, Opera), a number
| of messaging applications like Slack and the desktop version of Skype,
| many non-Proton games, EagleCAD. Some of those may run inside
| qemu, but only with a painful speed penalty.
Hmmm. I've run Chromium, Opera, Vivaldi, Firefox, and so on with no
difficulty on my Pi5 machines running Debian.
| The Pi is an ARM system, so if it works on a Pi, it works on ARM.
| Conversely, if it doesn't work on a popular and well-supported SBC like
| the Pi, it's unlikely to work on other ARM systems.
I guess I'm hoping to some extent that the move to RISC systems will be
great enough that developers will be pretty much forced to support them.
Having been an OS/2 user and on Linux since 1998 I'm accustomed to kludges
and workarounds, but there are a few things out with which I will not do.
I have TDE on the Pi machines, no problem. So I guess it comes down to the
Proton products (again, the privacy and security applications, not games).
--
dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album
Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
12 Aug
12 Aug
11:08 p.m.
On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 21:04:36 +0000
dep via tde-users <users(a)trinitydesktop.org> wrote:
said E. Liddell via tde-users:
| On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 07:57:39 +0000
|
| dep via tde-users <users(a)trinitydesktop.org> wrote:
| > But I'm unclear as to the cross compatibility of the architectures.
| > There are a few concerns I have, the two main ones being the Proton
| > applications and TDE.
|
| Proton will never work—it's a patchset over WINE, which is a translator
| of system calls for x86 and descendant architectures only.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant the Proton security and
privacy products -- mail, passwords, vpn, and drive. Some are available
via web interface. The ones that are troublesome are ProtonMail, because I
prefer to store my mail locally, which I can do with KMail via the
ProtonMail Bridge on X86 and likely can't with ARM. (The native and web
incarnations make bottom replies damn near impossible, also.) I can also
cobble together the VPN service, but it relies on OpenVPN in that
implementation and makes switching servers a giant pita.
I don't know if there's anyone else here using ProtonMail, so it's likely
you'll have to check their download page yourself for an ARM-friendly
version of the bridge software.
You also have the option of buying up an Intel NUC or small-form-factor
x86_64 box with relatively low power requirements and setting it up to do
server jobs like pulling your mail across. It can be old and slow and sleep
most of the time to reduce its power footprint.
| Some other popular software that definitely
won't work: several
| Chrome-based browsers (Chrome itself, Vivaldi, Edge, Opera), a number
| of messaging applications like Slack and the desktop version of Skype,
| many non-Proton games, EagleCAD. Some of those may run inside
| qemu, but only with a painful speed penalty.
Hmmm. I've run Chromium, Opera, Vivaldi, Firefox, and so on with no
difficulty on my Pi5 machines running Debian.
Okay, apparently no one on Gentoo cared enough to keyword Vivaldi or Opera
on ARM—I just did a quick pass with grep looking for KEYWORDS="-* amd64"
or similar in the tree.
E. Liddell
13 Aug
13 Aug
4:58 a.m.
Am Tuesday 13 August 2024 01:08:34 schrieb E. Liddell via tde-users:
Intel NUC
this was 10y ago. Now is AliExpress with tons of chinese small factor at 1/3
the price of western rubbish. Sorry to be harsh, but this is the truth.
BR
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6:47 a.m.
Anno domini 2024 Tue, 13 Aug 06:58:26 +0200
deloptes via tde-users scripsit:
Am Tuesday 13 August 2024 01:08:34 schrieb E. Liddell via tde-users:
+1
Now you get great SBCs with AI coprocessor and RISC-V (or ARM if you prefer). Maybe ARM is
faster and can do more, but IMO the window of oppotunity for ARM is closing fast. I'm
slowly moving my stuff to RISC-V, especially the embedded stuff. I still have STM32 and
the like and migration takes time, but it's quite clear where the journey goes.
Just my 2¢
Nik
Intel NUC
this was 10y ago. Now is AliExpress with tons of chinese small factor at 1/3
the price of western rubbish. Sorry to be harsh, but this is the truth.
BR
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2:36 p.m.
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 06:58:26 +0200
deloptes <emanoil.kotsev(a)deloptes.org> wrote:
Am Tuesday 13 August 2024 01:08:34 schrieb E. Liddell via tde-users:
You can still buy a new NUC13 off Amazon and other outlets. The
aliexpress trash is cheaper, but then it always was. Looks to me like
used would be sufficient for your use case anyway, and those are
priced in the Pi4/Pi5 range on ebay.
E. Liddell
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Intel NUC
this was 10y ago. Now is AliExpress with tons of chinese small factor at 1/3
the price of western rubbish. Sorry to be harsh, but this is the truth.
12 Aug
12 Aug
2:13 p.m.
dep via tde-users wrote:
But I'm unclear as to the cross compatibility of
the architectures. There
are a few concerns I have, the two main ones being the Proton applications
and TDE. (I've been spoiled in that almost everything -- but not Proton
stuff -- has worked perfectly on the Raspberry Pi.)
I actually tried this since RPi2. With RPi4 I can say, TDE works fine on
ARM. I couldn't use it for daily work however, because I have a scanner
with some part of the code(firmware or similar proprietary library) that
required x86 32/64 arch.
For the RPi4 it required the RPi kernel, because of firmware and some other
stuff for periphery (display, audio etc).
So, there being substantial knowledge here, I have a
question: Why is it a
bad idea to build an ARM-based desktop machine?
No idea why it would not be recommended. It works fine.
BR
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160
days inactive
162
days old
9 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
deloptes -
dep -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
E. Liddell -
E. Liddell
-
Thierry de Coulon