Hi all,
recently I encountere a problem with using Konsole. For some reason using Shift+<arrow key> stopped working in Emacs. At first I thought Emacs is at fault but a quick investigation revealed that using Shift+<arrow> simply does not work in Konsole. With google's help I found a solution [1], which was to edit keytab file found in /opt/trinity/share/apps/konsole/. An interesting fact is that I found five files in that directory, but on my system Konsole is using a key set named "XFree (4.x.x)" and that set is not found in the above directory. I scanned the whole disk for files ending with *keytab but found only these five files in konsole directory. Does anyone know where is the definition of "XFree (4.x.x)" key set? I'd like to fix the problem by editing that set but for now I have edited a set named "XFree (3.x.x)"
Janek
[1]https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=59256
--- Politechnika Łódzka Lodz University of Technology
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On 05/16/2016 02:23 AM, Jan Stolarek wrote:
recently I encountere a problem with using Konsole. For some reason using Shift+<arrow key> stopped working in Emacs. At first I thought Emacs is at fault but a quick investigation revealed that using Shift+<arrow> simply does not work in Konsole. With google's help I found a solution [1], which was to edit keytab file found in /opt/trinity/share/apps/konsole/.
Why not just edit Konsole's shortcuts to remove those keys? Konsole uses them for Go To Next/Previous Session.
Dan Youngquist composed on 2016-05-16 05:46 (UTC-0700):
Jan Stolarek wrote:
recently I encountere a problem with using Konsole. For some reason using Shift+<arrow key> stopped working in Emacs. At first I thought Emacs is at fault but a quick investigation revealed that using Shift+<arrow> simply does not work in Konsole. With google's help I found a solution [1], which was to edit keytab file found in /opt/trinity/share/apps/konsole/.
Why not just edit Konsole's shortcuts to remove those keys? Konsole uses them for Go To Next/Previous Session.
Maybe it would be better for Konsole to be more like other apps in their emulation of the source of the tab paradigm, at least via a simple option. Tabs' origin is in a binder, pages in a "book", enabling one to quickly select a particular point in a (vertical) _stack_ or _layer_ of sheets or pages. Thus, at least arguably, the more sensible emulation is up/down, not right/left.
Ctrl-Up/Ctrl-Down works in Mozilla products, my first exposure to tabs in any Linux environment, though not my first in a PC environment. (Alt-# in Quattro Pro for DOS was the first, just short of 3 decades ago.) Thus, because I spend more time in web browsers than all other tabbed apps combined, and with many many many tabs, than Konsole, keyboard tab switching in Konsole requires extra mental effort.
Felix Miata wrote:
Maybe it would be better for Konsole to be more like other apps in their emulation of the source of the tab paradigm, at least via a simple option. Tabs' origin is in a binder, pages in a "book", enabling one to quickly select a particular point in a (vertical) stack or layer of sheets or pages. Thus, at least arguably, the more sensible emulation is up/down, not right/left.
Ctrl-Up/Ctrl-Down works in Mozilla products, my first exposure to tabs in any Linux environment, though not my first in a PC environment. (Alt-# in Quattro Pro for DOS was the first, just short of 3 decades ago.) Thus, because I spend more time in web browsers than all other tabbed apps combined, and with many many many tabs, than Konsole, keyboard tab switching in Konsole requires extra mental effort.
I am sure you can modify this behavior to suit your needs the best. This is completely configurable.
regards
deloptes composed on 2016-05-16 19:58 (UTC+0200):
I am sure you can modify this behavior to suit your needs the best. This is completely configurable.
With only one PC, sure. But here, there are too many different machines and logins for that to be viable. Why should Konsole tab navigation be unconditionally different from virtually all other tabbed interface apps? Who benefits?
Felix Miata wrote:
With only one PC, sure. But here, there are too many different machines and logins for that to be viable. Why should Konsole tab navigation be unconditionally different from virtually all other tabbed interface apps? Who benefits?
Perhaps because at the time the convention was not clear. For me it is much better to use Shift+arrow to switch over the console windows than CTRL+PgUp/PgDn. Another reason would be perhaps the availability and layout of those buttons on different keyboards.
If you have 1000 pcs you should anyway need to manage them remotely and there are configuration management systems - saltstack.com is a good one.
Who benefits in changing it? Me definitely not. I'm just used to it and I think not only me.
Where is this configuration written anyway?
regards
deloptes composed on 2016-05-17 21:14 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
With only one PC, sure. But here, there are too many different machines and logins for that to be viable. Why should Konsole tab navigation be unconditionally different from virtually all other tabbed interface apps? Who benefits?
Perhaps because at the time the convention was not clear. For me it is much better to use Shift+arrow to switch over the console windows than CTRL+PgUp/PgDn. Another reason would be perhaps the availability and layout of those buttons on different keyboards.
If you have 1000 pcs you should anyway need to manage them remotely and there are configuration management systems - saltstack.com is a good one.
Not 1000 alike. 1000 of which purposely few alike. Good defaults are very important here.
Who benefits in changing it? Me definitely not. I'm just used to it and I think not only me.
Methinks you glossed over a keyword above:
unconditionally
Why not just edit Konsole's shortcuts to remove those keys? Konsole uses them for Go To Next/Previous Session.
These keys are unassigned in my Konsole configuration.
It turns out that XFree 4.x.x configuration is compiled into Konsole, but there is a template that corresponds to that configuration. That template is located in a file README.default.Keytab (due to capital K in Keytab my previous searches did not find it). Problem solved.
As for Ctrl+Up/Down for tab switching to me this is counter-intuitive. Tabs are displayed horizontally. Using keys for vertical movement to switch between them does not make much sense to me.
Janek
--- Politechnika Łódzka Lodz University of Technology
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On Wednesday 18 May 2016 16:33:51 Jan Stolarek wrote:
As for Ctrl+Up/Down for tab switching to me this is counter-intuitive. Tabs are displayed horizontally. Using keys for vertical movement to switch between them does not make much sense to me.
They are numbered 1,2,3,4 etc. One usually regards numbers as going up and down.
Lisi
Lisi Reisz composed on 2016-05-18 16:40 (UTC+0100):
Jan Stolarek composed on 2016-05-18 17:33 (UTC+0200):
As for Ctrl+Up/Down for tab switching to me this is counter-intuitive. Tabs are displayed horizontally. Using keys for vertical movement to switch between them does not make much sense to me.
This is why an alternate tab switching option employed in other apps includes the tab key.
Did you ever use a real tab, such as sheets in a ring binder or pages in a printed manual? Those tabs are each an extension of a layer constituted of one or more pages. Even today, paper manuals often use pseudo-tabs, pages with contrasting colors at different positions on pages' ends to correspond to different chapters, e.g. my Magnavox DVR and Brother printer.
They are numbered 1,2,3,4 etc. One usually regards numbers as going up and down.
Not so much that as the physics of real rather than virtual tabs. Yes, they look like they are horizontal, but each real tab is attached to a layer. Each can overlap one or more others, completely hiding them. One goes up and down through anything that is layered, unless the whole layered stack is stood on end, in which case movement within layers in the stack becomes fore and aft, not side to side.
On Wed, 18 May 2016, Felix Miata wrote:
Lisi Reisz composed on 2016-05-18 16:40 (UTC+0100):
Jan Stolarek composed on 2016-05-18 17:33 (UTC+0200):
As for Ctrl+Up/Down for tab switching to me this is counter-intuitive. Tabs are displayed horizontally. Using keys for vertical movement to switch between them does not make much sense to me.
This is why an alternate tab switching option employed in other apps includes the tab key.
Did you ever use a real tab, such as sheets in a ring binder or pages in a printed manual? Those tabs are each an extension of a layer constituted of one or more pages. Even today, paper manuals often use pseudo-tabs, pages with contrasting colors at different positions on pages' ends to correspond to different chapters, e.g. my Magnavox DVR and Brother printer.
They are numbered 1,2,3,4 etc. One usually regards numbers as going up and down.
Not so much that as the physics of real rather than virtual tabs. Yes, they look like they are horizontal, but each real tab is attached to a layer. Each can overlap one or more others, completely hiding them. One goes up and down through anything that is layered, unless the whole layered stack is stood on end, in which case movement within layers in the stack becomes fore and aft, not side to side.
wow! people are really taking a metaphor very seriously! someone calls a bit of coding a 'tab' and that generates an argument about whether the coding should look like a book!
as I vaguely recall there were similar scholastic arguments about the metaphor of a 'desktop' or 'folders' and such.
these arguments are as difficult to settle as the dispute Swift recounts of the quarrel between the 'Big-endians' and 'Little-endians' in _Gulliver's Travels_! and that was causa belli!
(itself a parodic mirror of the dispute between 'Catholic' vs 'Protestant' in Ireland, well of course this wasn't purely theological....)
say here's what we do: let's code 'tabs' so they go up and down the right or left side for the 'Up-endians' and so they go along the bottom or top for 'side-winders'!
I'm a 'side-winder' myself but will willingly concede the word 'tab' to the 'Up-endians' if they insist - what's in a name?
but my fellow side-winders will insist on their metaphysics: tabs are 'really' left-right, after all some books have tabs at the top or bottom so....
f.
Felmon Davis wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016, Felix Miata wrote:
Lisi Reisz composed on 2016-05-18 16:40 (UTC+0100):
Jan Stolarek composed on 2016-05-18 17:33 (UTC+0200):
As for Ctrl+Up/Down for tab switching to me this is counter-intuitive. Tabs are displayed horizontally. Using keys for vertical movement to switch between them does not make much sense to me.
This is why an alternate tab switching option employed in other apps includes the tab key.
Did you ever use a real tab, such as sheets in a ring binder or pages in a printed manual? Those tabs are each an extension of a layer constituted of one or more pages. Even today, paper manuals often use pseudo-tabs, pages with contrasting colors at different positions on pages' ends to correspond to different chapters, e.g. my Magnavox DVR and Brother printer.
They are numbered 1,2,3,4 etc. One usually regards numbers as going up and down.
Not so much that as the physics of real rather than virtual tabs. Yes, they look like they are horizontal, but each real tab is attached to a layer. Each can overlap one or more others, completely hiding them. One goes up and down through anything that is layered, unless the whole layered stack is stood on end, in which case movement within layers in the stack becomes fore and aft, not side to side.
wow! people are really taking a metaphor very seriously! someone calls a bit of coding a 'tab' and that generates an argument about whether the coding should look like a book!
as I vaguely recall there were similar scholastic arguments about the metaphor of a 'desktop' or 'folders' and such.
these arguments are as difficult to settle as the dispute Swift recounts of the quarrel between the 'Big-endians' and 'Little-endians' in _Gulliver's Travels_! and that was causa belli!
(itself a parodic mirror of the dispute between 'Catholic' vs 'Protestant' in Ireland, well of course this wasn't purely theological....)
say here's what we do: let's code 'tabs' so they go up and down the right or left side for the 'Up-endians' and so they go along the bottom or top for 'side-winders'!
I'm a 'side-winder' myself but will willingly concede the word 'tab' to the 'Up-endians' if they insist - what's in a name?
but my fellow side-winders will insist on their metaphysics: tabs are 'really' left-right, after all some books have tabs at the top or bottom so....
f.
Lisi, "tab" is coming from the maps with tabs AFAIK - from the paper world. This is a normal process in language(s) to use the description of something old for something new with similar function. Some are horizontal, some are vertical. The relation between the tabulator button and the tab/folder is however not clear to me. And to me it is a mere convention that we use ALT+Tab to switch between application windows, CTRL+PgUp/PgDn to switch between tabs in firefox and Shift+right/left to switch between the konsole windows. However similar to the languages, if convention is already there, it is usually hard to change, because people get use to it. This given as argument, I see the option for Felix to change it himself ... there are many ways to do so.
regards
On Thursday 19 May 2016 07:50:32 deloptes wrote:
Felmon Davis wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016, Felix Miata wrote:
Lisi Reisz composed on 2016-05-18 16:40 (UTC+0100):
Jan Stolarek composed on 2016-05-18 17:33 (UTC+0200):
As for Ctrl+Up/Down for tab switching to me this is counter-intuitive. Tabs are displayed horizontally. Using keys for vertical movement to switch between them does not make much sense to me.
This is why an alternate tab switching option employed in other apps includes the tab key.
Did you ever use a real tab, such as sheets in a ring binder or pages in a printed manual? Those tabs are each an extension of a layer constituted of one or more pages. Even today, paper manuals often use pseudo-tabs, pages with contrasting colors at different positions on pages' ends to correspond to different chapters, e.g. my Magnavox DVR and Brother printer.
They are numbered 1,2,3,4 etc. One usually regards numbers as going up and down.
Not so much that as the physics of real rather than virtual tabs. Yes, they look like they are horizontal, but each real tab is attached to a layer. Each can overlap one or more others, completely hiding them. One goes up and down through anything that is layered, unless the whole layered stack is stood on end, in which case movement within layers in the stack becomes fore and aft, not side to side.
wow! people are really taking a metaphor very seriously! someone calls a bit of coding a 'tab' and that generates an argument about whether the coding should look like a book!
as I vaguely recall there were similar scholastic arguments about the metaphor of a 'desktop' or 'folders' and such.
these arguments are as difficult to settle as the dispute Swift recounts of the quarrel between the 'Big-endians' and 'Little-endians' in _Gulliver's Travels_! and that was causa belli!
(itself a parodic mirror of the dispute between 'Catholic' vs 'Protestant' in Ireland, well of course this wasn't purely theological....)
say here's what we do: let's code 'tabs' so they go up and down the right or left side for the 'Up-endians' and so they go along the bottom or top for 'side-winders'!
I'm a 'side-winder' myself but will willingly concede the word 'tab' to the 'Up-endians' if they insist - what's in a name?
but my fellow side-winders will insist on their metaphysics: tabs are 'really' left-right, after all some books have tabs at the top or bottom so....
f.
Lisi, "tab" is coming from the maps with tabs AFAIK - from the paper world. This is a normal process in language(s) to use the description of something old for something new with similar function. Some are horizontal, some are vertical. The relation between the tabulator button and the tab/folder is however not clear to me. And to me it is a mere convention that we use ALT+Tab to switch between application windows, CTRL+PgUp/PgDn to switch between tabs in firefox and Shift+right/left to switch between the konsole windows. However similar to the languages, if convention is already there, it is usually hard to change, because people get use to it. This given as argument, I see the option for Felix to change it himself ... there are many ways to do so.
I don't quite see why this is addressed to me by name. It is not my argument!!! :-/ I merely pointed out that one can produce a rational argument for up/down. (I don't think, mind you, that rationality comes into it.)
If Firefox is pitched against Konsole, I instinctively stick up for TDE against Mozilla. And left-right is in fact more instinctive to me. But one can produce a rational argument for up/down.
Lisi
Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Thursday 19 May 2016 07:50:32 deloptes wrote:
Felmon Davis wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2016, Felix Miata wrote:
Lisi Reisz composed on 2016-05-18 16:40 (UTC+0100):
Jan Stolarek composed on 2016-05-18 17:33 (UTC+0200):
As for Ctrl+Up/Down for tab switching to me this is counter-intuitive. Tabs are displayed horizontally. Using keys for vertical movement to switch between them does not make much sense to me.
This is why an alternate tab switching option employed in other apps includes the tab key.
Did you ever use a real tab, such as sheets in a ring binder or pages in a printed manual? Those tabs are each an extension of a layer constituted of one or more pages. Even today, paper manuals often use pseudo-tabs, pages with contrasting colors at different positions on pages' ends to correspond to different chapters, e.g. my Magnavox DVR and Brother printer.
They are numbered 1,2,3,4 etc. One usually regards numbers as going up and down.
Not so much that as the physics of real rather than virtual tabs. Yes, they look like they are horizontal, but each real tab is attached to a layer. Each can overlap one or more others, completely hiding them. One goes up and down through anything that is layered, unless the whole layered stack is stood on end, in which case movement within layers in the stack becomes fore and aft, not side to side.
wow! people are really taking a metaphor very seriously! someone calls a bit of coding a 'tab' and that generates an argument about whether the coding should look like a book!
as I vaguely recall there were similar scholastic arguments about the metaphor of a 'desktop' or 'folders' and such.
these arguments are as difficult to settle as the dispute Swift recounts of the quarrel between the 'Big-endians' and 'Little-endians' in _Gulliver's Travels_! and that was causa belli!
(itself a parodic mirror of the dispute between 'Catholic' vs 'Protestant' in Ireland, well of course this wasn't purely theological....)
say here's what we do: let's code 'tabs' so they go up and down the right or left side for the 'Up-endians' and so they go along the bottom or top for 'side-winders'!
I'm a 'side-winder' myself but will willingly concede the word 'tab' to the 'Up-endians' if they insist - what's in a name?
but my fellow side-winders will insist on their metaphysics: tabs are 'really' left-right, after all some books have tabs at the top or bottom so....
f.
Lisi, "tab" is coming from the maps with tabs AFAIK - from the paper world. This is a normal process in language(s) to use the description of something old for something new with similar function. Some are horizontal, some are vertical. The relation between the tabulator button and the tab/folder is however not clear to me. And to me it is a mere convention that we use ALT+Tab to switch between application windows, CTRL+PgUp/PgDn to switch between tabs in firefox and Shift+right/left to switch between the konsole windows. However similar to the languages, if convention is already there, it is usually hard to change, because people get use to it. This given as argument, I see the option for Felix to change it himself ... there are many ways to do so.
I don't quite see why this is addressed to me by name. It is not my argument!!! :-/ I merely pointed out that one can produce a rational argument for up/down. (I don't think, mind you, that rationality comes into it.)
If Firefox is pitched against Konsole, I instinctively stick up for TDE against Mozilla. And left-right is in fact more instinctive to me. But one can produce a rational argument for up/down.
Lisi
Sorry - I mixed it up - sometimes there is irrational shortcut in the brain. I also prefer the arrow keys for the konsole. In firefox I rarely use PgUp/PgDn, because in the browser one uses the mouse anyway, so why move the hand to the keyboard. I also agree with you about constructing argumentation with fallacies. This is a phenomenon that me and my wife are personally interested in. She did a thesis about fallacies in financial news. If there would be a conspiracy someone should be teaching somewhere how you make good arguments that are based on fallacy. If I had some time I would do a research from historic point of view - how this developed, because IMHO 100y ago people had different kind of education and those who graduated did not talk nonsense .... well today we have a higher rate of literacy ... but lower level of communication.
Just sharing my thought off topic without being asked :)
regards
-
Dan Youngquist -
deloptes -
Felix Miata -
Felmon Davis -
Jan Stolarek -
Lisi Reisz