Hallo all.
I'm re-setting up an old machine (a core 2 quad from 15 xears ago) and wanted to use a somewhat older distribution. I decided for Stretch and managed to find the online repos for older Debians.
I then wantes to install trinity (from the website it seems 14.1.1 should be available, I also tried 14.0.0). I followed the instructions for repositories, however when I run install tde-trinity, I get dependency hell
Several packages have unmet dependencies, for example Depends : tde-core-trinity (>= 4:14.0.0~) but it is not going to be installed
Another weirdness is that aptitude has no installation candidate. I suppose apt or apt-get can be used instead.
An idea?
Thierry
Anno domini 2024 Sun, 17 Nov 09:44:49 +0100 Thierry de Coulon via tde-users scripsit:
Hallo all.
I'm re-setting up an old machine (a core 2 quad from 15 xears ago) and wanted to use a somewhat older distribution. I decided for Stretch and managed to find the online repos for older Debians.
I then wantes to install trinity (from the website it seems 14.1.1 should be available, I also tried 14.0.0). I followed the instructions for repositories, however when I run install tde-trinity, I get dependency hell
Several packages have unmet dependencies, for example Depends : tde-core-trinity (>= 4:14.0.0~) but it is not going to be installed
Another weirdness is that aptitude has no installation candidate. I suppose apt or apt-get can be used instead.
An idea?
Don't use an old distribution. Your C2D has 64 bit, so use anything new. You can try some of the TDE live ISOs and check if it works, e.g (shameless selfadvertising) http://mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/cdimages/devuan/darkness-202409...
Nik
Thierry ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
-- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ...
Thierry de Coulon composed on 2024-11-17 09:44 (UTC+0100):
I'm re-setting up an old machine (a core 2 quad from 15 xears ago) and wanted to use a somewhat older distribution.
Why? I have a bunch of machines of that ilk (LGA775), all using various distros' current releases, most plus Trixie. Each has at least one distro using TDE. Only one has any problem, due to its particular NVidia GPU and recent kernels: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/nouveau/-/issues/385
On Sunday 17 November 2024 11.53:10 Felix Miata via tde-users wrote:
Why? I have a bunch of machines of that ilk (LGA775), all using various distros' current releases, most plus Trixie. Each has at least one distro using TDE. Only one has any problem, due to its particular NVidia GPU and recent kernels: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/nouveau/-/issues/385
Well, your hardware is not my hardware, it seems.
Here:
- Debian 9 installs, TDE does not - Debian 11 installs, but you only get a command line, there are install errors (seems related to network) that I am not interrested to solve on this machine. - Debian 10 intalls AND TDE installs.
I has tried MX but the system was very slow, with a lot of harddisk activity.
Thierry
Thierry de Coulon composed on 2024-11-17 16:01 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
Why? I have a bunch of machines of that ilk (LGA775), all using various distros' current releases, most plus Trixie. Each has at least one distro using TDE. Only one has any problem, due to its particular NVidia GPU and recent kernels: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/nouveau/-/issues/385
Well, your hardware is not my hardware, it seems.
Here:
- Debian 9 installs, TDE does not
- Debian 11 installs, but you only get a command line, there are install
errors (seems related to network) that I am not interrested to solve on this machine.
- Debian 10 intalls AND TDE installs.
I has tried MX but the system was very slow, with a lot of harddisk activity.
I doubt materially different from at least one of them, if not all. Oldest Core2duo is a 4400. Newest are 3 8400s, each running a different GPU. A few still have Buster or Buster and Stretch or even Wheezy. The one I have currently booted I am upgrading from 128 byte inodes to 256 bytes on every EXTx filesystem, so that if I live until 2038 I won't have the date/clock problem then arising. I have 8.5 left to do at about 25 minutes per on 500G rotating rust: # inxi -C CPU: Info: dual core model: Intel Core2 Duo E7600 bits: 64 type: MCP cache: L2: 3 MiB Speed (MHz): avg: 1603 min/max: 1603/3066 cores: 1: 1603 2: 1603 # ls -Ggh /disks | egrep 'deb|ub|mint|mx|anti' drwxr-xr-x 28 1.0K Sep 2 22:44 deb11 drwxr-xr-x 23 1.0K Nov 11 21:59 deb12 drwxr-xr-x 23 1.0K Nov 15 01:23 deb13 drwxr-xr-x 27 1.0K Jun 5 23:54 ub20 drwxr-xr-x 27 1.0K Nov 11 23:46 ub22 drwxr-xr-x 26 1.0K Sep 21 23:32 ub24 # It has 3 Debians, 3 Ubuntus, and no MX. All 6 have only TDE and IceWM installed for running Xorg. All are upgrades, were originally older versions going back as far as Debian 6 or Ubuntu 10.04. So, the only significant likely difference between at least one of mine and yours is none of mine are fresh installations.
On 11/17/24 7:01 AM, Thierry de Coulon via tde-users wrote:
I has tried MX but the system was very slow, with a lot of harddisk activity.
I've run into that on occasion on old hardware. You can use Antix instead, or you can tweak the swapfile settings to make it a lot less eager to swap, by adding these lines to /etc/sysctl.conf:
vm.swappiness=1 vm.vfs_cache_pressure=200
A big problem with using a distro as old as Stretch is, you can't run a current browser. I think Firefox 78 is the newest that will run on Stretch, at least in my experience. So as time goes on, it'll be less and less functional online.
On Sun November 17 2024 00:44:49 Thierry de Coulon via tde-users wrote:
I'm re-setting up an old machine (a core 2 quad from 15 xears ago) and wanted to use a somewhat older distribution. I decided for Stretch and managed to find the online repos for older Debians.
I then wantes to install trinity (from the website it seems 14.1.1 should be available, I also tried 14.0.0). I followed the instructions for repositories, however when I run install tde-trinity, I get dependency hell
Several packages have unmet dependencies, for example Depends : tde-core-trinity (>= 4:14.0.0~) but it is not going to be installed
Another weirdness is that aptitude has no installation candidate. I suppose apt or apt-get can be used instead.
An idea?
Hi Thierry,
I've used TDE on every Debian since Debian 6 (Squeeze). Prior to that I used KDE 3.
You say you tried R14.0.0 but TTBOMK R14.0.0 is no longer available or supported. Where, please, are you seeing TDE R14.0.0 available online?
The current stable TDE is R14.1.3, but the latest version of TDE for Stretch is R14.1.1. Support for Stretch ended in 2020 and LTS ended in 2022. By limiting yourself to Stretch you're exposing yourself to known vulnerabilities in Debian, as well as missing features and bugfixes in TDE since R14.1.1. Debian 11 (Bullseye) is now in LTS. Debian 12 (Bookworm) is recommended.
If you still wish to proceed with Stretch you'll need to show us your install command, full error output, your sources.list, and your apt preferences and/or preferences.d/* if any.
--Mike
Mike Bird composed on 2024-11-17 08:02 (UTC-0800):
Where, please, are you seeing TDE R14.0.0 available online?
These suggest it: https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/Debian_Trinity_Repository_Installation_Instr... http://archive.trinitydesktop.net/trinity/deb/
On Sun November 17 2024 08:10:36 Felix Miata via tde-users wrote:
Mike Bird composed on 2024-11-17 08:02 (UTC-0800):
Where, please, are you seeing TDE R14.0.0 available online?
These suggest it: https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/Debian_Trinity_Repository_Installation_Inst ructions http://archive.trinitydesktop.net/trinity/deb/
Thanks Felix. I didn't know we still had those old debs. --Mike
On Sunday 17 November 2024 17.02:08 Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
You say you tried R14.0.0 but TTBOMK R14.0.0 is no longer available or supported. Where, please, are you seeing TDE R14.0.0 available online?
On the TDE website
By limiting yourself to Stretch you're exposing yourself to known vulnerabilities in Debian, as well as missing features and bugfixes in TDE since R14.1.1.
I never said I want to use this machine for anything like that. I've actually put it together to run Freedos. I've hooked a good old floppy drive and an internal Zip drive to it and I will use Linux as a more comfortable way to use and manage files that will be put on zips that an even older 286 computer can access through parallel zip drive. Linux can use USB sticks that DOS can't see. Recreating floppies is also necessary for some installs as the old software don't acces any other way...
Basically the machine will not even be connected to the network, so Debian vulnerabilities and Broser version are not relevant in my case :)
Thierry
Hello,
Sorry if I missed mails with this subject. Why do you want to install TDE on an old Debian ? (computer too old ?). Because with a SSD hard disk, Linux can work fine, even if the computer is old, not so slow, and Debian-Bookworm will accept the last TDE version.
Old cars are better than new ones, including mine, and also my old Dell computer too. Why to change them ! :-)
On Sunday 17 November 2024 19.14:53 ajh-valmer via tde-users wrote:
Hello,
Sorry if I missed mails with this subject. Why do you want to install TDE on an old Debian ?
As I explained, this is sort of a Frankenstein-PC to access obsolete hardware (floppy drive, zip drive) that I need to write floppy disks and move files to zip cardriges that I use on an even olde AT-286 to have fun with old, obsolete (and admittedly useless) software.
I'm nearing ritirement and I suppose it's a way to feel younger ;)
Can you imagine how slow these zip drives were?
Anyway I'll use Linux there only because it's so easier to care about files from TDE than (even) from GEM 3.
Thierry
17.11.24 21:46, Thierry de Coulon via tde-users:
On Sunday 17 November 2024 19.14:53 ajh-valmer via tde-users wrote:
Hello,
Sorry if I missed mails with this subject. Why do you want to install TDE on an old Debian ?
As I explained, this is sort of a Frankenstein-PC to access obsolete hardware (floppy drive, zip drive) that I need to write floppy disks and move files to zip cardriges that I use on an even olde AT-286 to have fun with old, obsolete (and admittedly useless) software.
RW access to floppy is broken in TDE and which I have some fixed in Debian 7 and TDE 14.0.10 here, so you can get that on my Debian7 LiveDisks, which are allowed to install from CD at least on Pentium 1 (K6-2 in my case) — http://oscada.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Sub-projects/Automation_Linux_dist...
Regards, Roman
Thierry de Coulon via tde-users wrote:
I then wantes to install trinity (from the website it seems 14.1.1 should be available, I also tried 14.0.0).
I looked in https://www.trinitydesktop.org/releases/R14.0.5/ - what about 14.0.5?
and
https://www.trinitydesktop.org/releases/R14.0.13/ - what about 14.0.13?
but it seems supported/provided TDE are
12.x - bookworm amd64, i386, ppc64el, arm64, armhf 11.x - bullseye amd64, i386, ppc64el, arm64, armhf 10.x - buster amd64, i386, ppc64el, arm64, armhf
Newer versions of Debian should also work on older HW. I was using upto last year an older 2006/7 i386 Acrosser with bullseye (but no TDE on top).
Also I recall there was some story around aptitude ... and it was discouraged to use.
On 2024/11/18 05:07 PM, deloptes via tde-users wrote:
Thierry de Coulon via tde-users wrote:
I then wantes to install trinity (from the website it seems 14.1.1 should be available, I also tried 14.0.0).
I looked in https://www.trinitydesktop.org/releases/R14.0.5/
- what about 14.0.5?
Hi Thierry, I don't have your hw details, but I have debian trixie + TDE testing installed on an old 2011 laptop and it works without any issue. Maybe you should give a recent debian another try before aiming for older versions? I understand your computer won't be connected to the internet, but Debian is a rock solid distro and I am surprise you would not be able to install it on an old computer, as long as the architecture of your computer is still supported (I assume it is 386?)
RW access to floppy is broken in TDE
Access to devices is controlled by the linux kernel, it has nothing to do with TDE or any DE for that matters. User programs simply don't have direct access to any physical device in linux, it all happens through kernel system calls and the kernel is the solely responsible piece of code for reading/writing to any device.
Cheers Michele
18.11.24 15:08, Michele Calgaro via tde-users:
RW access to floppy is broken in TDE
Access to devices is controlled by the linux kernel, it has nothing to do with TDE or any DE for that matters
Access is controlled by udisks or from /etc/fstab! :)
And udisks directly mounts floppy only in RO.
And when you write a record about floppy in /etc/fstab, TDE uses direct mounting by call mount for it, and that is wrong work also for userspace.
Then I just disabled the direct mounting at a record in /etc/fstab, so TDE is using udisks for that and udisks reads /etc/fstab and mounts RW in userspace correctly in this way.
User programs simply don't have direct access to any physical device in linux, it all happens through kernel system calls and the kernel is the solely responsible piece of code for reading/writing to any device.
Do you think I have no real old device to test such behavior? :)
Regards, Roman
Roman Savochenko via tde-users wrote:
Access is controlled by udisks or from /etc/fstab! :)
And udisks directly mounts floppy only in RO.
And when you write a record about floppy in /etc/fstab, TDE uses direct mounting by call mount for it, and that is wrong work also for userspace.
Then I just disabled the direct mounting at a record in /etc/fstab, so TDE is using udisks for that and udisks reads /etc/fstab and mounts RW in userspace correctly in this way.
According documentation https://wiki.debian.org/Floppy
you should create /mnt/floppy, give user the permissions and add user to floppy group, then adjust fstab /dev/fd0 /media/floppy auto rw,user,noauto,exec,gid=floppy,umask=007 0 0
I don't have floppy anymore, but last time I checked it was working just fine (also in TDE)
BR
Ponedilok 18 Lystopad 7532 19:27:05 deloptes via tde-users wrote:
Roman Savochenko via tde-users wrote:
Access is controlled by udisks or from /etc/fstab! :)
And udisks directly mounts floppy only in RO.
And when you write a record about floppy in /etc/fstab, TDE uses direct mounting by call mount for it, and that is wrong work also for userspace.
Then I just disabled the direct mounting at a record in /etc/fstab, so TDE is using udisks for that and udisks reads /etc/fstab and mounts RW in userspace correctly in this way.
According documentation https://wiki.debian.org/Floppy
you should create /mnt/floppy, give user the permissions and add user to floppy group, then adjust fstab /dev/fd0 /media/floppy auto rw,user,noauto,exec,gid=floppy,umask=007 0 0
Thanks for the tip. :)
Yes, that will work also without using udisks, but I have struck to the problem through udisks, so resolved it through udisks, and read also many such manuals before.
Any way, that is strange of using direct mounting at udisks presence, who is correctly processed /etc/fstab for proper user with a record in /etc/fstab: /dev/fd0 /media/floppy auto noauto,users,owner,iocharset=utf8,codepage=866 0 0
P.S. This EMail I wrote on K6-2. :)
Regards, Roman
On 2024/11/19 12:49 AM, Roman Savochenko via tde-users wrote:
18.11.24 15:08, Michele Calgaro via tde-users:
RW access to floppy is broken in TDE
Access to devices is controlled by the linux kernel, it has nothing to do with TDE or any DE for that matters
Access is controlled by udisks or from /etc/fstab! :)
And udisks directly mounts floppy only in RO.
And when you write a record about floppy in /etc/fstab, TDE uses direct mounting by call mount for it, and that is wrong work also for userspace.
Then I just disabled the direct mounting at a record in /etc/fstab, so TDE is using udisks for that and udisks reads / etc/fstab and mounts RW in userspace correctly in this way.
User programs simply don't have direct access to any physical device in linux, it all happens through kernel system calls and the kernel is the solely responsible piece of code for reading/writing to any device.
Do you think I have no real old device to test such behavior? :)
Hi Roman, I suggest you take an Operating System class before you write some comments, it may save you some embarrassment :-) Cheers Michele
вт, 19 нояб. 2024 г., 05:40 Michele Calgaro via tde-users < users@trinitydesktop.org>:
On 2024/11/19 12:49 AM, Roman Savochenko via tde-users wrote:
18.11.24 15:08, Michele Calgaro via tde-users:
RW access to floppy is broken in TDE
Access to devices is controlled by the linux kernel, it has nothing to
do with TDE or any DE for that matters
Access is controlled by udisks or from /etc/fstab! :)
And udisks directly mounts floppy only in RO.
And when you write a record about floppy in /etc/fstab, TDE uses direct
mounting by call mount for it, and that is wrong
work also for userspace.
Then I just disabled the direct mounting at a record in /etc/fstab, so
TDE is using udisks for that and udisks reads /
etc/fstab and mounts RW in userspace correctly in this way.
User programs simply don't have direct access to any physical device in
linux, it all happens through kernel system
calls and the kernel is the solely responsible piece of code for
reading/writing to any device.
Do you think I have no real old device to test such behavior? :)
Hi Roman, I suggest you take an Operating System class before you write some comments, it may save you some embarrassment :-)
It surely goes via kernel driver, but dd (and mount) are userspace programs ... let alone udisks and TDE.
Many pieces above kernel to go wrong ...
Cheers
Michele ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
It surely goes via kernel driver, but dd (and mount) are userspace programs ... let alone udisks and TDE.
Many pieces above kernel to go wrong ...
Absolutely correct! We could have a system without any DE at all, just command line, and still be able to access (or not) a floppy disk. It is the whole system setup that needs to be correct, not an issue with the DE installed in the system. That was my whole point. So blaming a DE (TDE or any other DE) for not being able to access a device is wrong information.
It's like those comments on the internet saying that Qt3 and TDE have an unsafe network stack. That is also wrong information because the network stack does not come from the DE itself. At most, we can say that Qt3 network *API* are limited and that is indeed a true fact when compared with Qt4 or more recent versions.
If I have misinterpreted the original post, I have no problems to put my hands up and apologize if someone feels offended.
Cheers Michele
вт, 19 нояб. 2024 г., 11:10 Michele Calgaro michele.calgaro@yahoo.it:
It surely goes via kernel driver, but dd (and mount) are userspace
programs ... let alone udisks and TDE.
Many pieces above kernel to go wrong ...
Absolutely correct! We could have a system without any DE at all, just command line, and still be able to access (or not) a floppy disk. It is the whole system setup that needs to be correct, not an issue with the DE installed in the system.
In theory, DE should help with configuring system correctly ...
That was my whole point. So blaming a DE (TDE or any other DE) for not
being able to access a device is wrong information.
It's like those comments on the internet saying that Qt3 and TDE have an unsafe network stack. That is also wrong information because the network stack does not come from the DE itself. At most, we can say that Qt3 network *API* are limited and that is indeed a true fact when compared with Qt4 or more recent versions.
If I have misinterpreted the original post, I have no problems to put my hands up and apologize if someone feels offended.
Cheers Michele
Anno domini 2024 Tue, 19 Nov 11:13:36 +0300 Andrew Randrianasulu via tde-users scripsit:
вт, 19 нояб. 2024 г., 11:10 Michele Calgaro michele.calgaro@yahoo.it:
[...] In theory, DE should help with configuring system correctly ...
No theory survives reality :)
Nik
On Vivtorok 19 Lystopad 7532 04:39:29 Michele Calgaro via tde-users wrote:
On 2024/11/19 12:49 AM, Roman Savochenko via tde-users wrote:
18.11.24 15:08, Michele Calgaro via tde-users:
RW access to floppy is broken in TDE
Access to devices is controlled by the linux kernel, it has nothing to do with TDE or any DE for that matters
Access is controlled by udisks or from /etc/fstab! :)
And udisks directly mounts floppy only in RO.
And when you write a record about floppy in /etc/fstab, TDE uses direct mounting by call mount for it, and that is wrong work also for userspace.
Then I just disabled the direct mounting at a record in /etc/fstab, so TDE is using udisks for that and udisks reads / etc/fstab and mounts RW in userspace correctly in this way.
User programs simply don't have direct access to any physical device in linux, it all happens through kernel system calls and the kernel is the solely responsible piece of code for reading/writing to any device.
Do you think I have no real old device to test such behavior? :)
Hi Roman, I suggest you take an Operating System class before you write some comments, it may save you some embarrassment :-) Cheers
Hi Michele I suggest you to read the thread at least two posts in the depth, it may you won't consider everyone novice and don't drop to elementar explanations! :)
Please end the name-calling here and now.
There is negative value in discussing elementary mount mechanics in a thread on a problem Thierry encountered while trying to install TDE on an old version of Debian.
As a professional systems programmer since 1977, and as a user of TDE since it forked from KDE, I am very grateful to Michele and the other TDE devs for the desktop environment I value above all others.
--Mike
On Vivtorok 19 Lystopad 7532 09:35:23 Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
Please end the name-calling here and now.
There is negative value in discussing elementary mount mechanics in a thread on a problem Thierry encountered while trying to install TDE on an old version of Debian.
As a professional systems programmer since 1977, and as a user of TDE since it forked from KDE, I am very grateful to Michele and the other TDE devs for the desktop environment I value above all others.
So, just install TDE on old HW and try use FD here without any trick, and then praise-pray on "saint" TDE bugs from Michele and Slaveck! :)
And don't shut up others who want to fix this mess at least for themselves!
Roman Savochenko via tde-users wrote:
So, just install TDE on old HW and try use FD here without any trick, and then praise-pray on "saint" TDE bugs from Michele and Slaveck! :)
Hi Roman, I respect your work, but this is definitely not a TDE bug and to comment out part of the code is not a solution. May be there is indeed a bug somewhere, but not exactly where you point to.
IMO you should remove the entry in /etc/fstab and use udisks2 configuration, so that TDE can take advantage of udisks2.
It all boils down to what has precedence - /etc/fstab or udsisk2. May be this should be discussed here (in separate thread) or in an issue on TGW.
And don't shut up others who want to fix this mess at least for themselves!
We are asking politely to not do a bad publicity and finger pointing.
I allow myself to write this as I had same experience 20+y ago with same results, before I studied game theory. May be you read about cooperative games too. It does not guarantee 100% success, but in most cases > 0%.
BR
On Tuesday 19 November 2024 08.35:23 Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
Please end the name-calling here and now.
There is negative value in discussing elementary mount mechanics in a thread on a problem Thierry encountered while trying to install TDE on an old version of Debian.
I second this! This list is (usually) distinguished by the fact that people - even when they disagree - remain nice to each other. Let's keep it so!
thank you.
Thierry
said Michele Calgaro via tde-users:
| I don't have your hw details, but I have debian trixie + TDE testing | installed on an old 2011 laptop and it works without any issue. Maybe | you should give a recent debian another try before aiming for older | versions? I understand your computer won't be connected to the internet, | but Debian is a rock solid distro and I am surprise you would not be | able to install it on an old computer, as long as the architecture of | your computer is still supported (I assume it is 386?)
I have Trixie and TDE testing running just fine as well on a 2008 ThinkPad X200. And it isn't even slow. I do wish that the Express Card were good for something -- apparently there is a USB 3.0 adapter that will work with external devices, but I've never seen one. (Alas, I have a world of PCMCIA stuff that work with some older portable machines I have, but backward compatability is now more a joke than a desired attribute. Would be great to be able to use a PCMCIA floppy drive, for instance.)
dep via tde-users wrote:
I have Trixie and TDE testing running just fine as well on a 2008 ThinkPad X200.
I have https://www.notebookcheck.net/Toshiba-Satellite-Pro-A120.1803.0.html
I installed TDE i386 with debian, but internet surfing in firefox is very slow, videos/youtube do not work well - otherwise very robust and reliable machine. In any case I am thinking to either disassemble it and extract some useful parts or give it to the recycling place.
-
ajh-valmer -
Andrew Randrianasulu -
Dan Youngquist -
deloptes -
dep -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
Felix Miata -
Michele Calgaro -
Mike Bird -
Roman Savochenko -
Thierry de Coulon