9 Jun
2018
9 Jun
'18
1:40 p.m.
Hi all!
This question might be a bit OT (and probably totally useless for the systemd-fraction),
but ... what is the purpose of need consolekit & policykit & elogind ? I observed
consolekit creating hordes of children, resulting in ~ 5% cpu usage. I deleted consolekit
& policykit & elogind, restarted the system and found everything still working
perfectly. So, what are these good for? Is TDE depending on these in any way?
Nik
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
9 Jun
9 Jun
2:04 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] why consolekit & policykit & elogind?
On Saturday 09 of June 2018 15:40:57 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Hi all!
This question might be a bit OT (and probably totally useless for the
systemd-fraction), but ... what is the purpose of need consolekit &
policykit & elogind ? I observed consolekit creating hordes of
children, resulting in ~ 5% cpu usage. I deleted consolekit & policykit
& elogind, restarted the system and found everything still working
perfectly. So, what are these good for? Is TDE depending on these in
any way?
Nik
Hi Nik,
consolekit and policykit may be needed for tde_dbus_hardwarecontrol,
NetworkManager and UDisks / UDisks2.
Cheers
--
Slávek
3:19 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] why consolekit & policykit & elogind?
Am Samstag, 9. Juni 2018 schrieb Slávek Banko:
On Saturday 09 of June 2018 15:40:57 Dr. Nikolaus
Klepp wrote:
Hi Slávek!
Interesting. "udisks/udisks2" is not installed, but "pmount". Mounting
removable devices without "pmount" fails. I also have no networkmanager running
(just plain dhcp on eth0). Sounds good to me :-)
On FreeBSD it looks like the TDEs hal-component does not work propperly when hal is
compiled without consolekit/policykit: it just shows the interlan hd, but no removeable
media - devd based automount still works propperly.
Nik
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
Hi all!
This question might be a bit OT (and probably totally useless for the
systemd-fraction), but ... what is the purpose of need consolekit &
policykit & elogind ? I observed consolekit creating hordes of
children, resulting in ~ 5% cpu usage. I deleted consolekit & policykit
& elogind, restarted the system and found everything still working
perfectly. So, what are these good for? Is TDE depending on these in
any way?
Nik
Hi Nik,
consolekit and policykit may be needed for tde_dbus_hardwarecontrol,
NetworkManager and UDisks / UDisks2.
Cheers 
6:46 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] why consolekit & policykit & elogind?
On 06/09/2018 10:19 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Interesting. "udisks/udisks2" is not installed, but "pmount".
Mounting removable devices without "pmount" fails. I also have no networkmanager
running (just plain dhcp on eth0). Sounds good to me :-)
On FreeBSD it looks like the TDEs hal-component does not work propperly when hal is
compiled without consolekit/policykit: it just shows the interlan hd, but no removeable
media - devd based automount still works propperly.
Nik
Consolekit was also needed for tdm to implement mulit-seat. I do not know the
current state of systemd inheriting the multi-seat functionality from
consolekit, but when I was building TDE for Arch, when arch dropped consolekit
and went to pure systemd, it broke tdm and there was a big push to implement
multi-seat without consolekit that was never quite brought to fruition.
Slavek probably recalls that mess. A good introduction of the
consolekit/polkit/udisk relationship is:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Multiseat
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
8:51 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] why consolekit & policykit & elogind?
Am Samstag, 9. Juni 2018 schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 06/09/2018 10:19 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
That's an interesting article. So aparently consolekit/polkit/udisk and desendents are
still around to solve a the multiseat "problem" which died when? 1995? Am I
missing some bigger picture here?
Somehow the documentation of consolekit makes me smile in that context:
https://www.freedesktop.org/software/ConsoleKit/doc/ConsoleKit.html "Defining the
Problem ... To be written."
Polkit documentation is no better, 2. paragraph under "Usage in unprivileged
programs"
https://www.freedesktop.org/software/polkit/docs/latest/polkit-apps.html - translates to
"avoid polkit" to me.
Ok, as I mentioned before, on devuan nothing changes after I got rid of
consolekit/polkit/elogind.
On FreeBSD things are a bit different: I compiled sysutils/hal without consolekit2 and
without polkit. I removed consolekit2 and polkit. After restarting hald, "konqueror
media:/" works almost as expected: I get one error message "device busy",
reloading shows the content of the media. Unmounting gives an error message, but the
device is unmounted correctly (which does not happen with consolekit+polkit). But there is
no atempt made to mount the device twice (which was what I wrote about some days ago)
which is a big plus for me.
Nik
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
Interesting. "udisks/udisks2" is not installed, but "pmount".
Mounting removable devices without "pmount" fails. I also have no networkmanager
running (just plain dhcp on eth0). Sounds good to me :-)
On FreeBSD it looks like the TDEs hal-component does not work propperly when hal is
compiled without consolekit/policykit: it just shows the interlan hd, but no removeable
media - devd based automount still works propperly.
Nik
Consolekit was also needed for tdm to implement mulit-seat. I do not know the
current state of systemd inheriting the multi-seat functionality from
consolekit, but when I was building TDE for Arch, when arch dropped consolekit
and went to pure systemd, it broke tdm and there was a big push to implement
multi-seat without consolekit that was never quite brought to fruition.
Slavek probably recalls that mess. A good introduction of the
consolekit/polkit/udisk relationship is:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Multiseat
11:23 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] why consolekit & policykit & elogind?
On 06/09/2018 01:51 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Hi Nik, I was able to remove consolekit and it was replaced by devuan
packages but removing polkit also removes synaptic and I don't want to
remove synaptic. Isn't polkit and elogind now harmless devuan packages?
Thanks,
--
Jimmy Johnson
Devuan Jessie - TDE Trinity R14.0.4 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda2
Registered Linux User #380263
Am Samstag, 9. Juni 2018 schrieb David C. Rankin:
> On 06/09/2018 10:19 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
>>
>> Interesting. "udisks/udisks2" is not installed, but "pmount".
Mounting removable devices without "pmount" fails. I also have no networkmanager
running (just plain dhcp on eth0). Sounds good to me :-)
>>
>> On FreeBSD it looks like the TDEs hal-component does not work propperly when hal
is compiled without consolekit/policykit: it just shows the interlan hd, but no removeable
media - devd based automount still works propperly.
Consolekit was
also needed for tdm to implement mulit-seat. I do not know the
current state of systemd inheriting the multi-seat functionality from
consolekit, but when I was building TDE for Arch, when arch dropped consolekit
and went to pure systemd, it broke tdm and there was a big push to implement
multi-seat without consolekit that was never quite brought to fruition.
Slavek probably recalls that mess. A good introduction of the
consolekit/polkit/udisk relationship is:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Multiseat
That's an interesting article. So aparently consolekit/polkit/udisk and desendents
are still around to solve a the multiseat "problem" which died when? 1995? Am I
missing some bigger picture here?
Somehow the documentation of consolekit makes me smile in that context:
https://www.freedesktop.org/software/ConsoleKit/doc/ConsoleKit.html "Defining the
Problem ... To be written."
Polkit documentation is no better, 2. paragraph under "Usage in unprivileged
programs"
https://www.freedesktop.org/software/polkit/docs/latest/polkit-apps.html - translates to
"avoid polkit" to me.
Ok, as I mentioned before, on devuan nothing changes after I got rid of
consolekit/polkit/elogind.
On FreeBSD things are a bit different: I compiled sysutils/hal without consolekit2 and
without polkit. I removed consolekit2 and polkit. After restarting hald, "konqueror
media:/" works almost as expected: I get one error message "device busy",
reloading shows the content of the media. Unmounting gives an error message, but the
device is unmounted correctly (which does not happen with consolekit+polkit). But there is
no atempt made to mount the device twice (which was what I wrote about some days ago)
which is a big plus for me.
10 Jun
10 Jun
8:39 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] why consolekit & policykit & elogind?
Hi Jimmy,
Am Sonntag, 10. Juni 2018 schrieb Jimmy Johnson:
On 06/09/2018 01:51 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Hi Nik, I was able to remove consolekit and it was replaced by devuan
packages but removing polkit also removes synaptic and I don't want to
remove synaptic. Isn't polkit and elogind now harmless devuan packages?
Thanks,
GNOME-stuff forces you to use those ingeniouse freedesktop.org inventions, so with
synaptic you are out of luck. BTW, have you tried kpackage-trinity?
I don't know if the devuan versions of polkit and elogind are harmful. They just got
in my way. On FreeBSD they were in my way from day one :-(
Nik
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
Am Samstag, 9. Juni 2018 schrieb David C.
Rankin:
> On 06/09/2018 10:19 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
>>
>> Interesting. "udisks/udisks2" is not installed, but "pmount".
Mounting removable devices without "pmount" fails. I also have no networkmanager
running (just plain dhcp on eth0). Sounds good to me :-)
>>
>> On FreeBSD it looks like the TDEs hal-component does not work propperly when hal
is compiled without consolekit/policykit: it just shows the interlan hd, but no removeable
media - devd based automount still works propperly.
Consolekit was also needed for tdm to implement mulit-seat. I do not know the
current state of systemd inheriting the multi-seat functionality from
consolekit, but when I was building TDE for Arch, when arch dropped consolekit
and went to pure systemd, it broke tdm and there was a big push to implement
multi-seat without consolekit that was never quite brought to fruition.
Slavek probably recalls that mess. A good introduction of the
consolekit/polkit/udisk relationship is:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Multiseat
That's an interesting article. So aparently consolekit/polkit/udisk and desendents
are still around to solve a the multiseat "problem" which died when? 1995? Am I
missing some bigger picture here?
Somehow the documentation of consolekit makes me smile in that context:
https://www.freedesktop.org/software/ConsoleKit/doc/ConsoleKit.html "Defining the
Problem ... To be written."
Polkit documentation is no better, 2. paragraph under "Usage in unprivileged
programs"
https://www.freedesktop.org/software/polkit/docs/latest/polkit-apps.html - translates to
"avoid polkit" to me.
Ok, as I mentioned before, on devuan nothing changes after I got rid of
consolekit/polkit/elogind.
On FreeBSD things are a bit different: I compiled sysutils/hal without consolekit2 and
without polkit. I removed consolekit2 and polkit. After restarting hald, "konqueror
media:/" works almost as expected: I get one error message "device busy",
reloading shows the content of the media. Unmounting gives an error message, but the
device is unmounted correctly (which does not happen with consolekit+polkit). But there is
no atempt made to mount the device twice (which was what I wrote about some days ago)
which is a big plus for me. 
10:38 a.m.
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
GNOME-stuff forces you to use those ingeniouse
freedesktop.org inventions,
so with synaptic you are out of luck. BTW, have you tried
kpackage-trinity?
Cause they (freedesktop.org) use dbus, which makes sense IMO. There ain't
that many alternatives out there. Gnome just follows the path and I think
modern KDE does this too.
I was looking recently in bluetooth which also uses dbus, so if you want to
communicate with bluetooth (bluez5 and I think bluez4 too) you have to use
dbus- there ain't much choice. Luckily someone ported qt dbus to trinity
and we have tqt dbus now and I think it works pretty well.
So if synaptic uses dbus and you want to use it, you have to stick to
those "ingeniouse freedesktop.org inventions"
regards
13 Jun
13 Jun
8 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] why consolekit & policykit & elogind?
On 06/10/2018 01:39 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Hi Jimmy,
Am Sonntag, 10. Juni 2018 schrieb Jimmy Johnson:
Hi Nik, yes, I used kpackage a lot before synaptic and for a short while
recently while replacing KDE with Trinity and now wonder about a lot of
things we where using then and can those things help us get back on track.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedesktop.org
Cheers,
--
Jimmy Johnson
Devuan Jessie - KDE 4.14.2 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda5
Registered Linux User #380263
On 06/09/2018 01:51 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp
wrote:
Hi Nik, I was able to remove consolekit and it was replaced by devuan
packages but removing polkit also removes synaptic and I don't want to
remove synaptic. Isn't polkit and elogind now harmless devuan packages?
Thanks,
GNOME-stuff forces you to use those ingeniouse freedesktop.org inventions, so with
synaptic you are out of luck. BTW, have you tried kpackage-trinity?
I don't know if the devuan versions of polkit and elogind are harmful. They just got
in my way. On FreeBSD they were in my way from day one :-( Am Samstag, 9. Juni 2018 schrieb David C.
Rankin:
> On 06/09/2018 10:19 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
>>
>> Interesting. "udisks/udisks2" is not installed, but "pmount".
Mounting removable devices without "pmount" fails. I also have no networkmanager
running (just plain dhcp on eth0). Sounds good to me :-)
>>
>> On FreeBSD it looks like the TDEs hal-component does not work propperly when hal
is compiled without consolekit/policykit: it just shows the interlan hd, but no removeable
media - devd based automount still works propperly.
Consolekit was also needed for tdm to implement mulit-seat. I do not know the
current state of systemd inheriting the multi-seat functionality from
consolekit, but when I was building TDE for Arch, when arch dropped consolekit
and went to pure systemd, it broke tdm and there was a big push to implement
multi-seat without consolekit that was never quite brought to fruition.
Slavek probably recalls that mess. A good introduction of the
consolekit/polkit/udisk relationship is:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Multiseat
That's an interesting article. So aparently consolekit/polkit/udisk and desendents
are still around to solve a the multiseat "problem" which died when? 1995? Am I
missing some bigger picture here?
Somehow the documentation of consolekit makes me smile in that context:
https://www.freedesktop.org/software/ConsoleKit/doc/ConsoleKit.html "Defining the
Problem ... To be written."
Polkit documentation is no better, 2. paragraph under "Usage in unprivileged
programs"
https://www.freedesktop.org/software/polkit/docs/latest/polkit-apps.html - translates to
"avoid polkit" to me.
Ok, as I mentioned before, on devuan nothing changes after I got rid of
consolekit/polkit/elogind.
On FreeBSD things are a bit different: I compiled sysutils/hal without consolekit2 and
without polkit. I removed consolekit2 and polkit. After restarting hald, "konqueror
media:/" works almost as expected: I get one error message "device busy",
reloading shows the content of the media. Unmounting gives an error message, but the
device is unmounted correctly (which does not happen with consolekit+polkit). But there is
no atempt made to mount the device twice (which was what I wrote about some days ago)
which is a big plus for me.
10 Jun
10 Jun
7:42 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] why consolekit & policykit & elogind?
On 06/09/2018 03:51 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
That's an interesting article. So aparently
consolekit/polkit/udisk and
desendents are still around to solve a the multiseat "problem" which died
when? 1995? Am I missing some bigger picture here?
Well, depending on how your system is used -- it's actually quite a big deal.
If you track the article closely, it isn't something that died, it more or
less functionality that has been passed around between packages since that
time. HAL, console kit, systemd, etc.. As far as it's importance, it was a
blocker for KDE4+ until it was capable of being implemented without console kit.
Apparently the next step-parent will be systemd-logind (most of which will
remain only partially documented, if at all -- just like the fact that console
blank and powerdown defaults were removed from the 4.16 kernel and supposedly
given to systemd to implement -- but nobody got around to writing a service to
replace the default (600) in /sys/module/kernel/parameters/consoleblank.
Ain't moving targets fun?...
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
8:38 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] why consolekit & policykit & elogind?
Am Sonntag, 10. Juni 2018 schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 06/09/2018 03:51 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
I remember reading some chatter about that, but I did not get the point. What did not
work? And what could not be solved much easier by providing a glue layer by some call to
external programs instead of depending on volatile 3rd party libraries? Ok, maybe that did
not look as unstable as it's now, but anyway. From my point of view the missing
documentation for practicly anything from freedesktop.org has reached the point where at
least I want to get rid of that stuff, because I cannot rely on the system behaving in a
sane predictable way any more.
That's an interesting article. So aparently
consolekit/polkit/udisk and
desendents are still around to solve a the multiseat "problem" which died
when? 1995? Am I missing some bigger picture here?
Well, depending on how your system is used -- it's actually quite a big deal.
If you track the article closely, it isn't something that died, it more or
less functionality that has been passed around between packages since that
time. HAL, console kit, systemd, etc.. As far as it's importance, it was a
blocker for KDE4+ until it was capable of being implemented without console kit. Apparently the next step-parent will be systemd-logind
(most of which will
remain only partially documented, if at all -- just like the fact that console
blank and powerdown defaults were removed from the 4.16 kernel and supposedly
given to systemd to implement -- but nobody got around to writing a service to
replace the default (600) in /sys/module/kernel/parameters/consoleblank.
Ain't moving targets fun?...
systemd-logind is on devuan in the form of elogind :-/. This does not sound good at all.
Nik
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
2384
days inactive
2388
days old
10 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
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David C. Rankin -
deloptes -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
Jimmy Johnson -
Slávek Banko