Hi all!
This question might be a bit OT (and probably totally useless for the systemd-fraction), but ... what is the purpose of need consolekit & policykit & elogind ? I observed consolekit creating hordes of children, resulting in ~ 5% cpu usage. I deleted consolekit & policykit & elogind, restarted the system and found everything still working perfectly. So, what are these good for? Is TDE depending on these in any way?
Nik
On Saturday 09 of June 2018 15:40:57 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Hi all!
This question might be a bit OT (and probably totally useless for the systemd-fraction), but ... what is the purpose of need consolekit & policykit & elogind ? I observed consolekit creating hordes of children, resulting in ~ 5% cpu usage. I deleted consolekit & policykit & elogind, restarted the system and found everything still working perfectly. So, what are these good for? Is TDE depending on these in any way?
Nik
Hi Nik,
consolekit and policykit may be needed for tde_dbus_hardwarecontrol, NetworkManager and UDisks / UDisks2.
Cheers
Am Samstag, 9. Juni 2018 schrieb Slávek Banko:
On Saturday 09 of June 2018 15:40:57 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Hi all!
This question might be a bit OT (and probably totally useless for the systemd-fraction), but ... what is the purpose of need consolekit & policykit & elogind ? I observed consolekit creating hordes of children, resulting in ~ 5% cpu usage. I deleted consolekit & policykit & elogind, restarted the system and found everything still working perfectly. So, what are these good for? Is TDE depending on these in any way?
Nik
Hi Nik,
consolekit and policykit may be needed for tde_dbus_hardwarecontrol, NetworkManager and UDisks / UDisks2.
Cheers
Hi Slávek!
Interesting. "udisks/udisks2" is not installed, but "pmount". Mounting removable devices without "pmount" fails. I also have no networkmanager running (just plain dhcp on eth0). Sounds good to me :-)
On FreeBSD it looks like the TDEs hal-component does not work propperly when hal is compiled without consolekit/policykit: it just shows the interlan hd, but no removeable media - devd based automount still works propperly.
Nik
On 06/09/2018 10:19 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Interesting. "udisks/udisks2" is not installed, but "pmount". Mounting removable devices without "pmount" fails. I also have no networkmanager running (just plain dhcp on eth0). Sounds good to me :-)
On FreeBSD it looks like the TDEs hal-component does not work propperly when hal is compiled without consolekit/policykit: it just shows the interlan hd, but no removeable media - devd based automount still works propperly.
Nik
Consolekit was also needed for tdm to implement mulit-seat. I do not know the current state of systemd inheriting the multi-seat functionality from consolekit, but when I was building TDE for Arch, when arch dropped consolekit and went to pure systemd, it broke tdm and there was a big push to implement multi-seat without consolekit that was never quite brought to fruition.
Slavek probably recalls that mess. A good introduction of the consolekit/polkit/udisk relationship is:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Multiseat
Am Samstag, 9. Juni 2018 schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 06/09/2018 10:19 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Interesting. "udisks/udisks2" is not installed, but "pmount". Mounting removable devices without "pmount" fails. I also have no networkmanager running (just plain dhcp on eth0). Sounds good to me :-)
On FreeBSD it looks like the TDEs hal-component does not work propperly when hal is compiled without consolekit/policykit: it just shows the interlan hd, but no removeable media - devd based automount still works propperly.
Nik
Consolekit was also needed for tdm to implement mulit-seat. I do not know the current state of systemd inheriting the multi-seat functionality from consolekit, but when I was building TDE for Arch, when arch dropped consolekit and went to pure systemd, it broke tdm and there was a big push to implement multi-seat without consolekit that was never quite brought to fruition.
Slavek probably recalls that mess. A good introduction of the consolekit/polkit/udisk relationship is:
That's an interesting article. So aparently consolekit/polkit/udisk and desendents are still around to solve a the multiseat "problem" which died when? 1995? Am I missing some bigger picture here?
Somehow the documentation of consolekit makes me smile in that context: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/ConsoleKit/doc/ConsoleKit.html "Defining the Problem ... To be written."
Polkit documentation is no better, 2. paragraph under "Usage in unprivileged programs" https://www.freedesktop.org/software/polkit/docs/latest/polkit-apps.html - translates to "avoid polkit" to me.
Ok, as I mentioned before, on devuan nothing changes after I got rid of consolekit/polkit/elogind.
On FreeBSD things are a bit different: I compiled sysutils/hal without consolekit2 and without polkit. I removed consolekit2 and polkit. After restarting hald, "konqueror media:/" works almost as expected: I get one error message "device busy", reloading shows the content of the media. Unmounting gives an error message, but the device is unmounted correctly (which does not happen with consolekit+polkit). But there is no atempt made to mount the device twice (which was what I wrote about some days ago) which is a big plus for me.
Nik
On 06/09/2018 01:51 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Am Samstag, 9. Juni 2018 schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 06/09/2018 10:19 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Interesting. "udisks/udisks2" is not installed, but "pmount". Mounting removable devices without "pmount" fails. I also have no networkmanager running (just plain dhcp on eth0). Sounds good to me :-)
On FreeBSD it looks like the TDEs hal-component does not work propperly when hal is compiled without consolekit/policykit: it just shows the interlan hd, but no removeable media - devd based automount still works propperly.
Consolekit was also needed for tdm to implement mulit-seat. I do not know the current state of systemd inheriting the multi-seat functionality from consolekit, but when I was building TDE for Arch, when arch dropped consolekit and went to pure systemd, it broke tdm and there was a big push to implement multi-seat without consolekit that was never quite brought to fruition.
Slavek probably recalls that mess. A good introduction of the consolekit/polkit/udisk relationship is:
That's an interesting article. So aparently consolekit/polkit/udisk and desendents are still around to solve a the multiseat "problem" which died when? 1995? Am I missing some bigger picture here?
Somehow the documentation of consolekit makes me smile in that context: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/ConsoleKit/doc/ConsoleKit.html "Defining the Problem ... To be written."
Polkit documentation is no better, 2. paragraph under "Usage in unprivileged programs" https://www.freedesktop.org/software/polkit/docs/latest/polkit-apps.html - translates to "avoid polkit" to me.
Ok, as I mentioned before, on devuan nothing changes after I got rid of consolekit/polkit/elogind.
On FreeBSD things are a bit different: I compiled sysutils/hal without consolekit2 and without polkit. I removed consolekit2 and polkit. After restarting hald, "konqueror media:/" works almost as expected: I get one error message "device busy", reloading shows the content of the media. Unmounting gives an error message, but the device is unmounted correctly (which does not happen with consolekit+polkit). But there is no atempt made to mount the device twice (which was what I wrote about some days ago) which is a big plus for me.
Hi Nik, I was able to remove consolekit and it was replaced by devuan packages but removing polkit also removes synaptic and I don't want to remove synaptic. Isn't polkit and elogind now harmless devuan packages?
Thanks,
Hi Jimmy, Am Sonntag, 10. Juni 2018 schrieb Jimmy Johnson:
On 06/09/2018 01:51 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Am Samstag, 9. Juni 2018 schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 06/09/2018 10:19 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Interesting. "udisks/udisks2" is not installed, but "pmount". Mounting removable devices without "pmount" fails. I also have no networkmanager running (just plain dhcp on eth0). Sounds good to me :-)
On FreeBSD it looks like the TDEs hal-component does not work propperly when hal is compiled without consolekit/policykit: it just shows the interlan hd, but no removeable media - devd based automount still works propperly.
Consolekit was also needed for tdm to implement mulit-seat. I do not know the current state of systemd inheriting the multi-seat functionality from consolekit, but when I was building TDE for Arch, when arch dropped consolekit and went to pure systemd, it broke tdm and there was a big push to implement multi-seat without consolekit that was never quite brought to fruition.
Slavek probably recalls that mess. A good introduction of the consolekit/polkit/udisk relationship is:
That's an interesting article. So aparently consolekit/polkit/udisk and desendents are still around to solve a the multiseat "problem" which died when? 1995? Am I missing some bigger picture here?
Somehow the documentation of consolekit makes me smile in that context: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/ConsoleKit/doc/ConsoleKit.html "Defining the Problem ... To be written."
Polkit documentation is no better, 2. paragraph under "Usage in unprivileged programs" https://www.freedesktop.org/software/polkit/docs/latest/polkit-apps.html - translates to "avoid polkit" to me.
Ok, as I mentioned before, on devuan nothing changes after I got rid of consolekit/polkit/elogind.
On FreeBSD things are a bit different: I compiled sysutils/hal without consolekit2 and without polkit. I removed consolekit2 and polkit. After restarting hald, "konqueror media:/" works almost as expected: I get one error message "device busy", reloading shows the content of the media. Unmounting gives an error message, but the device is unmounted correctly (which does not happen with consolekit+polkit). But there is no atempt made to mount the device twice (which was what I wrote about some days ago) which is a big plus for me.
Hi Nik, I was able to remove consolekit and it was replaced by devuan packages but removing polkit also removes synaptic and I don't want to remove synaptic. Isn't polkit and elogind now harmless devuan packages?
Thanks,
GNOME-stuff forces you to use those ingeniouse freedesktop.org inventions, so with synaptic you are out of luck. BTW, have you tried kpackage-trinity?
I don't know if the devuan versions of polkit and elogind are harmful. They just got in my way. On FreeBSD they were in my way from day one :-(
Nik
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
GNOME-stuff forces you to use those ingeniouse freedesktop.org inventions, so with synaptic you are out of luck. BTW, have you tried kpackage-trinity?
Cause they (freedesktop.org) use dbus, which makes sense IMO. There ain't that many alternatives out there. Gnome just follows the path and I think modern KDE does this too. I was looking recently in bluetooth which also uses dbus, so if you want to communicate with bluetooth (bluez5 and I think bluez4 too) you have to use dbus- there ain't much choice. Luckily someone ported qt dbus to trinity and we have tqt dbus now and I think it works pretty well. So if synaptic uses dbus and you want to use it, you have to stick to those "ingeniouse freedesktop.org inventions"
regards
On 06/10/2018 01:39 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Hi Jimmy, Am Sonntag, 10. Juni 2018 schrieb Jimmy Johnson:
On 06/09/2018 01:51 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Am Samstag, 9. Juni 2018 schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 06/09/2018 10:19 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Interesting. "udisks/udisks2" is not installed, but "pmount". Mounting removable devices without "pmount" fails. I also have no networkmanager running (just plain dhcp on eth0). Sounds good to me :-)
On FreeBSD it looks like the TDEs hal-component does not work propperly when hal is compiled without consolekit/policykit: it just shows the interlan hd, but no removeable media - devd based automount still works propperly.
Consolekit was also needed for tdm to implement mulit-seat. I do not know the current state of systemd inheriting the multi-seat functionality from consolekit, but when I was building TDE for Arch, when arch dropped consolekit and went to pure systemd, it broke tdm and there was a big push to implement multi-seat without consolekit that was never quite brought to fruition.
Slavek probably recalls that mess. A good introduction of the consolekit/polkit/udisk relationship is:
That's an interesting article. So aparently consolekit/polkit/udisk and desendents are still around to solve a the multiseat "problem" which died when? 1995? Am I missing some bigger picture here?
Somehow the documentation of consolekit makes me smile in that context: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/ConsoleKit/doc/ConsoleKit.html "Defining the Problem ... To be written."
Polkit documentation is no better, 2. paragraph under "Usage in unprivileged programs" https://www.freedesktop.org/software/polkit/docs/latest/polkit-apps.html - translates to "avoid polkit" to me.
Ok, as I mentioned before, on devuan nothing changes after I got rid of consolekit/polkit/elogind.
On FreeBSD things are a bit different: I compiled sysutils/hal without consolekit2 and without polkit. I removed consolekit2 and polkit. After restarting hald, "konqueror media:/" works almost as expected: I get one error message "device busy", reloading shows the content of the media. Unmounting gives an error message, but the device is unmounted correctly (which does not happen with consolekit+polkit). But there is no atempt made to mount the device twice (which was what I wrote about some days ago) which is a big plus for me.
Hi Nik, I was able to remove consolekit and it was replaced by devuan packages but removing polkit also removes synaptic and I don't want to remove synaptic. Isn't polkit and elogind now harmless devuan packages?
Thanks,
GNOME-stuff forces you to use those ingeniouse freedesktop.org inventions, so with synaptic you are out of luck. BTW, have you tried kpackage-trinity?
I don't know if the devuan versions of polkit and elogind are harmful. They just got in my way. On FreeBSD they were in my way from day one :-(
Hi Nik, yes, I used kpackage a lot before synaptic and for a short while recently while replacing KDE with Trinity and now wonder about a lot of things we where using then and can those things help us get back on track. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedesktop.org
Cheers,
On 06/09/2018 03:51 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
That's an interesting article. So aparently consolekit/polkit/udisk and desendents are still around to solve a the multiseat "problem" which died when? 1995? Am I missing some bigger picture here?
Well, depending on how your system is used -- it's actually quite a big deal. If you track the article closely, it isn't something that died, it more or less functionality that has been passed around between packages since that time. HAL, console kit, systemd, etc.. As far as it's importance, it was a blocker for KDE4+ until it was capable of being implemented without console kit.
Apparently the next step-parent will be systemd-logind (most of which will remain only partially documented, if at all -- just like the fact that console blank and powerdown defaults were removed from the 4.16 kernel and supposedly given to systemd to implement -- but nobody got around to writing a service to replace the default (600) in /sys/module/kernel/parameters/consoleblank.
Ain't moving targets fun?...
Am Sonntag, 10. Juni 2018 schrieb David C. Rankin:
On 06/09/2018 03:51 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
That's an interesting article. So aparently consolekit/polkit/udisk and desendents are still around to solve a the multiseat "problem" which died when? 1995? Am I missing some bigger picture here?
Well, depending on how your system is used -- it's actually quite a big deal. If you track the article closely, it isn't something that died, it more or less functionality that has been passed around between packages since that time. HAL, console kit, systemd, etc.. As far as it's importance, it was a blocker for KDE4+ until it was capable of being implemented without console kit.
I remember reading some chatter about that, but I did not get the point. What did not work? And what could not be solved much easier by providing a glue layer by some call to external programs instead of depending on volatile 3rd party libraries? Ok, maybe that did not look as unstable as it's now, but anyway. From my point of view the missing documentation for practicly anything from freedesktop.org has reached the point where at least I want to get rid of that stuff, because I cannot rely on the system behaving in a sane predictable way any more.
Apparently the next step-parent will be systemd-logind (most of which will remain only partially documented, if at all -- just like the fact that console blank and powerdown defaults were removed from the 4.16 kernel and supposedly given to systemd to implement -- but nobody got around to writing a service to replace the default (600) in /sys/module/kernel/parameters/consoleblank.
Ain't moving targets fun?...
systemd-logind is on devuan in the form of elogind :-/. This does not sound good at all.
Nik
-
David C. Rankin -
deloptes -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
Jimmy Johnson -
Slávek Banko