As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an odt and pdf of the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
On Sat, 2011-01-22 at 17:48 -0500, Katheryne Draven wrote:
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an odt and pdf of the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
<snip> I can certainly relate to the usability issues you identify. May I suggest renaming Desktop Publishing. That has very specific meaning to many folks such as myself. I'm not sure what a good name would be because there are so many important items in there. Perhaps something like Productivity Tools, Office Tools, Business Tools - I'm not sure.
I'll admit that I didn't like the KDE4 menu system at all but, as I used it more and more, I realized it did make one important improvement once it sunk in how to use it. It allowed the mouse to stay still and move the menu (via scrolling) rather than keeping the menu fixed and moving the mouse. Once I got used to that, it was much, much more productive than moving my mouse all over the screen. Would there be some way to incorporate that? Thanks - John
On 1/22/11, John A. Sullivan III jsullivan@opensourcedevel.com wrote:
On Sat, 2011-01-22 at 17:48 -0500, Katheryne Draven wrote:
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an odt and pdf of the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
<snip> I can certainly relate to the usability issues you identify. May I suggest renaming Desktop Publishing. That has very specific meaning to many folks such as myself. I'm not sure what a good name would be because there are so many important items in there. Perhaps something like Productivity Tools, Office Tools, Business Tools - I'm not sure.
I'll admit that I didn't like the KDE4 menu system at all but, as I used it more and more, I realized it did make one important improvement once it sunk in how to use it. It allowed the mouse to stay still and move the menu (via scrolling) rather than keeping the menu fixed and moving the mouse. Once I got used to that, it was much, much more productive than moving my mouse all over the screen. Would there be some way to incorporate that? Thanks - John
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John
that's not a bad idea, Productivity Tools. Perhaps the answer it so to create new parent directories, one for Desktop Publishing, One for Productivity Tools, etc. I need to think about it, but this is the input I needed. Thanks.
As for the kde4 kmenu not, being mouse responsive (no auto-selection), I completely agree. I think auto selection was a bad idea to begin with. I've found it to be a bother rather than a use feature.
I do hope its something we can use.
thank you again for the useful input.
Kate
Long Response Incoming. Do not be offended by the response.
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 17:48, Katheryne Draven borgqueen4@gmail.com wrote:
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an odt and pdf of the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I'm sorry, being under 20 is old? o_O
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
This is an another attempt, based on the attempt by Borg^Queen (the android running Windows Vista build 1), to improve upon the KDE menu system and make it more organized.
I am going to be referring to Kickoff, the KDE3 alternate menu and the KDE4 default menu.
The favorites menu is usually the first place people see – and in turn, the place that many people expect all their favorite applications to exist. When people have to put in the effort (elderly and middle-life crisis people (Borg^Queen)) to navigate to their all programs menu, it just doesn't work out.
Let's keep a short list of what people come to expect here. A web browser (Firefox, Chromium, Rekonq, Midori) An email client (Thunderbird, Evolution, Kmail) Although there is the idea just to put a link to a webpage showing the most popular email sites. A word processor (LibreOffice, AbiWord, Koffice) A File Browser (Dolphin, Konqueror) A Personal Settings Link (Many distributions call it System Settings, confusing users) A System Settings Link (Requires Root Access) A help option (For the easily confused) This usually provides almost everything a user needs to get started on his/her computer. For those of us who have an application not listed in there that we want, we usually dive into the Applications tab.
Let's go through a typical KDE menu.
Development Education Games Graphics Internet Multimedia Office System Utilities Help (Link to help browser) YaST (or other related System Tool)
This is very complicated for the modern day user. Sure, it's alphabetical! Ooh, this is great! No. It's not. Let's see an example of why. We'll use Mandriva's setup:
Internet Office Graphics Sound & Video Tools Development
Fewer categories, more simplicity. Of course, there's more clutter, but that's up to the user to clean up all that crap. Internet and Office at the top – The most used applications are usually Internet-connected Software and Productivity software.
If I had to make a menu style, it would look a bit more like this: Internet Office Multimedia (Graphics and “Sound & Video”/”Multimedia” combined) Games Education Windows Applications (Wine) Tools (Includes System and Utilities) Development More Applications (Lost & Found... This happens rarely, but it still does)
It's very close to Mandriva's, I admit that. But truthfully, it's probably the more logical one. You should see how Fedora butcher's theirs with upstream's. I've found apps in the wrong categories.
You can find a few submenus. But NOT TOO MANY! That's where I think openSUSE got it wrong. It's more work to the average user, and a pain in the ass after a navigating them a few times. The search menu at the top of Kicker? I've been using SuSE and Kicker for a long time but I didn't even notice that until 11.1 came out. *Assume people are oblivious to the obvious.*
I've seen stuff like this: Kickoff > Applications > Internet > Web Browsers > More > Firefox Me: -___-******
Submenus? Here's how I will break it down.
Internet Messaging Web Browsers Office Office Suite Business Tools Multimedia (Graphics and “Sound & Video”/”Multimedia” combined) Graphics Music Video Games Education Windows Applications (Wine) (we can have Windows emulated start menu here) Tools (Includes System and Utilities) (see below for this) Development IDEs Debuggers (I'm drawing a blank for this) More Applications (Lost & Found... This happens rarely, but it still does)
Borg^Queen did this layout:
Desktop Publishing (Contains everything related to published documents of all kinds) Development Edutainment & Health Emulators Games Graphics (symlinked) Lost & Found Multimedia (both audio and video) Network Settings System User-Apps (This is a special directory that initially remains empty. Users can place their fav apps and link other menu subdir into this one. Some distros I proposed this to are now calling it a “favourite” directory.)
Truthfully, I find Settings and System too similar in meaning. Emulators? Many people don't know what that is when they first try out a Linux system. Edutainment & Health: not crazy about this. Lost & Found: it's like KDE lost an app you just installed. Desktop Publishing: I saw you have Finance in there... Wouldn't that make it more than Desktop Publishing? Um... Office?
I'm not going to go into the details like what kind of apps should be in each category. The thing is, less is better for some people. And giving sub-menu after sub-menu will drive someone crazy (eventually) if they are not already by looking at the structure.
And regarding submenus in Tools:
Tools > System-Wide Settings submenu Any system setting that isn't in YaST (or other System Tool) The Rest of the stuff here is all Utilities That nobody cares about (usually)
You're then asking, where does YaST (or other system tool) and Personal Settings go? Please move the tab over to Computer in the Kicker menu and See above.
For those of us who like old-fashioned mouse-moving Kmenu, It would look something like this:
Recently Used Apps ----------- Internet Office Multimedia (Graphics and “Sound & Video”/”Multimedia” combined) Games Education Windows Applications (Wine) Tools (Includes System and Utilities) System-Wide Settings Random Utilities Here Development More Applications (Lost & Found... This happens rarely, but it still does) ---------- Personal Settings YaST (or related system tool) ---------- A Favorites Menu Favorite Apps here Switch User End Session
In the end, all I'm trying to say is that if you break it up too much, it's worse than what it was in the beginning.
Feel free to criticize, laugh, humiliate, or hate. :)
On Sat, 2011-01-22 at 21:56 -0500, Robert Xu wrote:
Long Response Incoming. Do not be offended by the response.
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 17:48, Katheryne Draven borgqueen4@gmail.com wrote:
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an odt and pdf of the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I'm sorry, being under 20 is old? o_O
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
<snip>
You can find a few submenus. But NOT TOO MANY! That's where I think openSUSE got it wrong. It's more work to the average user, and a pain in the ass after a navigating them a few times.
<snip>
I'm not going to go into the details like what kind of apps should be in each category. The thing is, less is better for some people. And giving sub-menu after sub-menu will drive someone crazy (eventually) if they are not already by looking at the structure.
<snip> I don't like lots of submenus either but there are so many options available in Linux that the huge menus which can popup are more cumbersome and confusing that the submenus. I think we need to find a reasonable balance - John
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 22:35, John A. Sullivan III jsullivan@opensourcedevel.com wrote:
I don't like lots of submenus either but there are so many options available in Linux that the huge menus which can popup are more cumbersome and confusing that the submenus. I think we need to find a reasonable balance - John
The way I see it, we should try to create a submenu that has a broad meaning but doesn't completely include all the apps. For example, we could say Office > Management for finance and other such applications such as to-do lists And also Office > Processors for Word/Spreadsheet/Presentation Processors...
I forgot to mention - no more than one submenu.
On 1/22/11, Robert Xu robxu9@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 22:35, John A. Sullivan III jsullivan@opensourcedevel.com wrote:
I don't like lots of submenus either but there are so many options available in Linux that the huge menus which can popup are more cumbersome and confusing that the submenus. I think we need to find a reasonable balance - John
The way I see it, we should try to create a submenu that has a broad meaning but doesn't completely include all the apps. For example, we could say Office > Management for finance and other such applications such as to-do lists And also Office > Processors for Word/Spreadsheet/Presentation Processors...
I forgot to mention - no more than one submenu.
-- later, Robert Xu
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All of this is very useful so thanks for that. Ru_X, dueling pistols at dawn.
With regard to multiple submenus. Over 4 years of testing has shown me people aren't put off my them, so long as they are logically ordered and well labeled. What does put them off, is being bombarded by dozens, even hundreds of apps under one or two submenus (choice, both the beauty and curse of FOSS). With multiple, logically labeled, submenus they can just follow along. They key is, logical progression, informative labeling, and this is also the rub. A problem I've been dealing with for a while, I'm close but I need help. So I'm thankful for this opportunity.
Regarding terminology, its important to avoid pop computing terms such as folders, windows apps, because it fails to educate the user. The use of improper terms by MS was an attempt (in my opinion and the opinions of many) to create a dependency on windows. Prove it to yourself, find a windows user and ask them to create a folder on their desktop. When they're finished, ask them to create a directory. 90% of the time they will draw blank. FOSS is said to be about freedom of knowledge, how can that knowledge be passed on if everything is being dumbed down.
Dumbing down is the worst thing anyone can do. I give you the NJ Educational system. 10 years ago it began dumbing everything down to "make it easier for kids to get an education" now NJ is a state of illiterates. Young adults entering college unable to read to any useful degree. NJ has learned a hard lesson and as a result as been forced to take such actions as eliminating the grade D. Forcing parents, students and teachers to work harder. Its been working.
There is a difference between making something accessible and useless. I have faith in people's ability to adapt and learn. I've seen it in action and I'm willing to bet on it by building something better.
/action: Kate hops off her soapbox pulpit.
Thanks (and I do mean that) to all
Kate
On 01/23/2011 07:05 AM, Katheryne Draven wrote:
On 1/22/11, Robert Xu robxu9@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 22:35, John A. Sullivan III
<snip>
I don't like lots of submenus either but there are so many options available in Linux that the huge menus which can popup are more cumbersome and confusing that the submenus. I think we need to find a reasonable balance - John
Exactly, the key is balance. I understand that people have personal preference for "more or less" or "standard menu verses kickoff", but there is no replacement for a clean default menu. When a menu expands to 2 columns, my eyes glaze over hunting for the app I want hoping like heck that it is "Named" correctly. Desktops get completely unusable very quickly when know applications get hidden under some ridiculous "Description - Name" layout in whatever menu you use. For example, in July, my apps disappeared and this was what greeted me in lost+found:
[131k] http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/arch/bugs/kde3-lost+found-menu.jpg
One thing that absolutely drove me crazy with the kickoff style menu was everything was hidden from view and it was (and still is unnavigable). Even with icon size reduced to 22-28, you click on System and only see the first 8 or so submenus or entries and then you have to 'scroll' hoping what you want is somewhere further down in the list and then repeat the process until you find the right menu or submenu. Horribly inefficient. The 'search' feature fails in this regard because if you use it, it doesn't tell you where the app you found lives. That's one of the reasons I have always preferred the traditional kmenu over kickoff -- it was much more visual.
Another issue with kickoff is the 'Favorite' view. If what you want is already in your favorites, then your fine, but it not, then it is back to the game of hide-and-seek. The default kickoff is basically empty. So for the new user, you are forced to go 'build a menu' before it becomes usable. Then the limitations of the kickoff become apparent. If you use no more than 10 apps, you will probably be OK after you add everything to the favorites. If you use more, then it is back to hunting for apps or scrolling through a list that extends out of site defeating the 'fly-out' auto opening of subs for access.
The way I see it, we should try to create a submenu that has a broad meaning but doesn't completely include all the apps. For example, we could say Office > Management for finance and other such applications such as to-do lists And also Office > Processors for Word/Spreadsheet/Presentation Processors...
I forgot to mention - no more than one submenu.
I respect Robert's input here. (I assume Robert means a maxdepth of 2 (toplevel + 1-sublevel) when speaking of 'no more than one submenu') When I click on a menu or submenu, I only want to see a dozen or so entries. At most -- a single column on a 900 px height display. If the menu entries are logical and descriptive, I don't think a maxdepth of 3 is necessary, even considering the number of utilities and apps that need a home in the menu. I think it can all be done with:
Development ------------ quick list of 3-5 most used apps ------------ Submenu1 Submenu2 Submenu3 ... Education ------------ quick list of 3-5 most used apps ------------ Submenu1 Submenu2 Submenu3 ... Games ------------ quick list of 3-5 most used apps ------------ Submenu1 Submenu2 Submenu3 .. etc...
The key here is toplevel design. When you click on kmenu
With regard to multiple submenus. Over 4 years of testing has shown me people aren't put off my them, so long as they are logically ordered and well labeled.
+1
What does put them off, is being bombarded by
dozens, even hundreds of apps under one or two submenus (choice, both the beauty and curse of FOSS). With multiple, logically labeled, submenus they can just follow along. They key is, logical progression, informative labeling, and this is also the rub. A problem I've been dealing with for a while, I'm close but I need help. So I'm thankful for this opportunity.
Well put.
<snip>
FOSS is said to be about freedom of knowledge, how can that knowledge be passed on if everything is being dumbed down.
dumbed down = frustratingly useless
No one expects to go into any desktop and not expect some type of learning curve. Logic and clarity minimizes the frustration and allows the reasonable user to find the app or information they need with the minimum of learning. You can 'focus group' what the 'average joe' thinks is the correct name for a menu or application should be to the point of absurdity and then end up with menu entries like "My Computer" that pop up more windows and tabs and buttons that eventually show you a MAC address (or whatever).
The point being, providing a logical working menu that correctly identifies and categorizes applications and information is far easier to learn than some esoteric set of 'cute' names that eventually lead somewhere. (you can memorize the telephone book with enough effort, but once you have succeeded, you have actually learned nothing except how to memorize)
That is why I applaud this effort and think the result will, while keeping Robert's caution about "how Fedora butcher's theirs" in mind, be one of the best standardizations that Trinity can do.
<snip>
There is a difference between making something accessible and useless. I have faith in people's ability to adapt and learn. I've seen it in action and I'm willing to bet on it by building something better.
/action: Kate hops off her soapbox pulpit.
I think you are doing a fantastic job and taking the right approach -- soapbox and all. I can't wait to see what results.
(Now back to figuring out how to build trinity on Arch so I can dump the old version of KDEmod3 for good :-)
On Monday 24 January 2011 23:50:22 David C. Rankin wrote:
On 01/23/2011 07:05 AM, Katheryne Draven wrote:
On 1/22/11, Robert Xu robxu9@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 22:35, John A. Sullivan III
<snip>
I don't like lots of submenus either but there are so many options available in Linux that the huge menus which can popup are more cumbersome and confusing that the submenus. I think we need to find a reasonable balance - John
Exactly, the key is balance. I understand that people have personal preference for "more or less" or "standard menu verses kickoff", but there is no replacement for a clean default menu. When a menu expands to 2 columns, my eyes glaze over hunting for the app I want hoping like heck that it is "Named" correctly. Desktops get completely unusable very quickly when know applications get hidden under some ridiculous "Description - Name" layout in whatever menu you use. For example, in July, my apps disappeared and this was what greeted me in lost+found:
[131k] http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/arch/bugs/kde3-lost+found-menu.jpg
One thing that absolutely drove me crazy with the kickoff style menu was everything was hidden from view and it was (and still is unnavigable). Even with icon size reduced to 22-28, you click on System and only see the first 8 or so submenus or entries and then you have to 'scroll' hoping what you want is somewhere further down in the list and then repeat the process until you find the right menu or submenu. Horribly inefficient. The 'search' feature fails in this regard because if you use it, it doesn't tell you where the app you found lives. That's one of the reasons I have always preferred the traditional kmenu over kickoff -- it was much more visual.
Another issue with kickoff is the 'Favorite' view. If what you want is already in your favorites, then your fine, but it not, then it is back to the game of hide-and-seek. The default kickoff is basically empty. So for the new user, you are forced to go 'build a menu' before it becomes usable. Then the limitations of the kickoff become apparent. If you use no more than 10 apps, you will probably be OK after you add everything to the favorites. If you use more, then it is back to hunting for apps or scrolling through a list that extends out of site defeating the 'fly-out' auto opening of subs for access.
The way I see it, we should try to create a submenu that has a broad meaning but doesn't completely include all the apps. For example, we could say Office > Management for finance and other such applications such as to-do lists And also Office > Processors for Word/Spreadsheet/Presentation Processors...
I forgot to mention - no more than one submenu.
I respect Robert's input here. (I assume Robert means a maxdepth of 2 (toplevel + 1-sublevel) when speaking of 'no more than one submenu') When I click on a menu or submenu, I only want to see a dozen or so entries. At most -- a single column on a 900 px height display. If the menu entries are logical and descriptive, I don't think a maxdepth of 3 is necessary, even considering the number of utilities and apps that need a home in the menu. I think it can all be done with:
Development
quick list of 3-5 most used apps
Submenu1 Submenu2 Submenu3 ... Education
quick list of 3-5 most used apps
Submenu1 Submenu2 Submenu3 ... Games
quick list of 3-5 most used apps
Submenu1 Submenu2 Submenu3 .. etc...
The key here is toplevel design. When you click on kmenu
With regard to multiple submenus. Over 4 years of testing has shown me people aren't put off my them, so long as they are logically ordered and well labeled.
+1
What does put them off, is being bombarded by
dozens, even hundreds of apps under one or two submenus (choice, both the beauty and curse of FOSS). With multiple, logically labeled, submenus they can just follow along. They key is, logical progression, informative labeling, and this is also the rub. A problem I've been dealing with for a while, I'm close but I need help. So I'm thankful for this opportunity.
Well put.
<snip>
FOSS is said to be about freedom of knowledge, how can that knowledge be passed on if everything is being dumbed down.
dumbed down = frustratingly useless
No one expects to go into any desktop and not expect some type of learning curve. Logic and clarity minimizes the frustration and allows the reasonable user to find the app or information they need with the minimum of learning. You can 'focus group' what the 'average joe' thinks is the correct name for a menu or application should be to the point of absurdity and then end up with menu entries like "My Computer" that pop up more windows and tabs and buttons that eventually show you a MAC address (or whatever).
The point being, providing a logical working menu that correctly identifies and categorizes applications and information is far easier to learn than some esoteric set of 'cute' names that eventually lead somewhere. (you can memorize the telephone book with enough effort, but once you have succeeded, you have actually learned nothing except how to memorize)
That is why I applaud this effort and think the result will, while keeping Robert's caution about "how Fedora butcher's theirs" in mind, be one of the best standardizations that Trinity can do.
<snip>
There is a difference between making something accessible and useless. I have faith in people's ability to adapt and learn. I've seen it in action and I'm willing to bet on it by building something better.
/action: Kate hops off her soapbox pulpit.
I think you are doing a fantastic job and taking the right approach -- soapbox and all. I can't wait to see what results.
(Now back to figuring out how to build trinity on Arch so I can dump the old version of KDEmod3 for good :-)
Dare I say it... I like the menu in KDE 3.5.10. I don't think it is perfect, I don't think that it cannot be improved, but by and large I can find things.
My one gripe about it is that on the rare occasions that I reinstall, I have to search all over again for the right action to get rid of those pesky favourites. <ducks and dons flame-proof suit> I work from the keyboard, and there is a limit to the number of keystrokes I want to have to use to shutdown.
But I don't forget that Kate is actually *doing* something, not just sitting on the sidelines. She therefore has the casting vote as far as I am concerned!
Lisi
On 01/22/2011 04:48 PM, Katheryne Draven wrote:
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an odt and pdf of the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
Thank you Kate!
I generally spend a couple of hours sorting apps into their logical places when I start with a fresh install. Standardizing kmenu into a logical order limiting each menu/submenu entry to ~ 10-15 items with a max depth of ~4 is much needed. Here are two thoughts for consideration:
(1) of the existing distros that did a good job with kmenu, SuSE's inclusion of a 'Utilities' submenu that held all the kde apps really helped with organization. Here is a shot of what I adapted from an old openSuSE 11.0 install:
[93k] http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/dt/trinity/ss/kmenu-utilities.jpg
(2) everybody also has a subset of applications they use most frequently. What I call "mytools" or I guess what "User-Apps" is intended for in your setup. For what it is worth, here is a shot of the collection of mytools that may have a submenu or two that may be of interest:
[138k] http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/dt/trinity/ss/kmenu-mytools.jpg
(I don't know how the duplicate basket entries got there. On suse, when you edit the gnome menu, you often get unwanted side-effects in the k3 menu as well)
I think this effort to tame the kmenu jungle is well worth the time and I thank you for your efforts.
On 01/22/2011 04:48 PM, Katheryne Draven wrote:
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an odt and pdf of the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
Kate, All,
I don't know how to do it, but this sure seems like the perfect topic for some type of collaboration tool that would allow all comments for the proposed toplevel menus and submenus to be hosted somewhere. I envision something, for lack of better words, like a spreadsheet laid out something similar to the following:
MENU ALT NAME PROS CONS VOTES (WHATEVER) ------ ---------- ------ ----- ------
where the current proposal of applications-kmenuedit.menu (or whatever the filename is) can be dumped and made web accessible in some wiki/blog or other interactive format to facilitate collaboration in a way that is better than trying to keep track of a string of emails.
I don't know how much work that would be, or if it is worth doing, but it just seems like it would make it easier to collect and analyze the great input and feedback that this thread has produced. Anybody know of a quick way to set something like this up? Doesn't seem like space or bandwidth would be an issue with something of this scope.
Just a thought to try and capture this information in a way that would help boil it down to what will be implemented and help offload some of the work on Kate... who I presume is the one that is collecting all the comments and thoughts.
On 01/22/2011 04:48 PM, Katheryne Draven wrote:
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an odt and pdf of the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
Kate, All,
I don't know how to do it, but this sure seems like the perfect topic for some type of collaboration tool that would allow all comments for the proposed toplevel menus and submenus to be hosted somewhere.
<snip> How about the Wiki? http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/ProposedSystemM...
Tim
On 01/24/2011 05:29 PM, Timothy Pearson wrote: <snip>
I don't know how to do it, but this sure seems like the perfect topic for some type of collaboration tool that would allow all comments for the proposed toplevel menus and submenus to be hosted somewhere.
<snip> How about the Wiki? http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/ProposedSystemMenuLayout
Tim
I think that's doable, but my first thought was the auto generated TOC wouldn't allow for alternatives to be easily shown without doing some type of table. I guess we could do something like:
- autogen TOC (The Menu Entries)
- Summary (Table)
- Each Entry Discussion
The only drawback I see to the wiki is the wiki syntax. It's not that difficult, I agree, but it can be an impediment. We would also need to keep in mind, and limit, the topic headings to the menu entries and make the topic/subtopic order reflect the menu layout.
Do we want to do a 'divide-and-conquer'? Have one person on the list originally volunteer to build one of the toplevel and submenu layout in the wiki? I'll take one. We can start with Kate's proposed toplevel and go from there:
Desktop Publishing Development Edutainment & Health Emulators Games Graphics Lost & Found Multimedia Network Settings System User-Apps
Why don't you get the names of other volunteers and assign a name to each entry (me included) and we'll get going. For those (like me) who are not immediately familiar with the toplevel/sub/entry(and category) of Trinity. It would be helpful to get a list of the current menu hierarchy in trinity. Just a simple:
file1.menu -> file2.menu -> etc. so we can confirm we get everything included. Thanks.
On 01/24/2011 06:18 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 01/24/2011 05:29 PM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
<snip> > How about the Wiki? > http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/ProposedSystemMenuLayout > > Tim
OK,
I have started the page:
http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/ProposedSystemM...
but I must admit "wiki markup HATES me". I have included the toplevel and a couple of thoughts under each (hoping that would help the TOC straighten itself out), but for some reason the wiki wasn't accepting the standard section level designations of '==' and '===' and so on. (Lord knows it was probably my fault, but I was looking at a wiki markup reference and it still wasn't working...) I have found I'm much better at editing or adding to an existing wiki rather than starting one from scratch.
The outline is supposed to be:
==Trinity Kmenu Standardization Proposal== ==Current Summary== ===Desktop Publishing=== ===Development=== ===Edutainment & Health=== ===Emulators=== ===Games=== ===Graphics=== ===Lost & Found=== ===Multimedia=== ===Network=== ===Settings=== ===System=== ===User-Apps=== ==Kmenu source files and inclusion order==
but as you can see, the wiki is eating a few of the '==' entries and failing to recognize the '===' markup. If someone smarter than I on wiki markup can tweak it, it would be appreciated.
At any rate, the page is there. If we can get the summarized information from the kmail thread in there, then I think we can pick up the collaboration on the wiki instead of in a string of emails to capture the thoughts and ideas in a single location.
Since I didn't start the thread, I felt awkward providing the summary for the menu entries and I didn't want to 'step on anyones toes' by doing it.
Kate, since I'm following your lead here, I don't want to usurp your effort and I'd feel better if you put your current thoughts in as a starting point.
On 01/26/2011 09:28 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:
but I must admit "wiki markup HATES me"
Raw edit works better, but I still can't get the TOC to generate or the wiki to accept the == section designations. So we need a bit of help here :(
On 1/26/11, David C. Rankin drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
On 01/26/2011 09:28 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:
but I must admit "wiki markup HATES me"
Raw edit works better, but I still can't get the TOC to generate or the wiki to accept the == section designations. So we need a bit of help here :(
-- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com
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Not much of a wiki user, tend to avoid social like network stuff. So I'll need some guidance and time.
On 01/26/2011 09:28 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:
but I must admit "wiki markup HATES me"
Raw edit works better, but I still can't get the TOC to generate or the wiki to accept the == section designations. So we need a bit of help here :(
That is a "feature" I have been fighting with as well. My best advice is to put a space in between each equals sign, so rather than foo == bar you would write foo = = bar
Tim
On 01/26/2011 11:41 AM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
On 01/26/2011 09:28 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:
but I must admit "wiki markup HATES me"
Raw edit works better, but I still can't get the TOC to generate or the wiki to accept the == section designations. So we need a bit of help here :(
That is a "feature" I have been fighting with as well. My best advice is to put a space in between each equals sign, so rather than foo == bar you would write foo = = bar
Tim
Thanks Tim,
Here is the wiki markup reference I'm trying to use to get the sections and TOC working:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_markup
I know it works, I have created sections and TOC entries for the Arch Linux wiki many times. Is there some setting that can be tweaked on the trinity wiki install that would help it interpret the normal wiki markup?
I've never installed a wiki package before, so I don't know if there is something similar to a httpd.conf or php.ini for it that would control how it behaves?
On Wednesday 26 Jan 2011 15:28:58 David C. Rankin wrote:
the wiki is eating a few of the '==' entries and failing to recognize the '===' markup. If someone smarter than I on wiki markup can tweak it, it would be appreciated.
Different Wikis have different markups. The Trinity Wiki is FOSWiki. See http://foswiki.org/System/TextFormattingRules for FOSWiki's markup.
I have corrected the headers to use FOSWiki markup.
HTH
Neil Youngman
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David C. Rankin -
John A. Sullivan III -
Katheryne Draven -
Lisi -
Neil Youngman -
Robert Xu -
Timothy Pearson