22 Jan
2011
22 Jan
'11
10:48 p.m.
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an odt and pdf of
the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
23 Jan
23 Jan
12:10 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On Sat, 2011-01-22 at 17:48 -0500, Katheryne Draven wrote:
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an
odt and pdf of
the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
<snip>
I can certainly relate to the usability issues you identify. May I
suggest renaming Desktop Publishing. That has very specific meaning to
many folks such as myself. I'm not sure what a good name would be
because there are so many important items in there. Perhaps something
like Productivity Tools, Office Tools, Business Tools - I'm not sure.
I'll admit that I didn't like the KDE4 menu system at all but, as I used
it more and more, I realized it did make one important improvement once
it sunk in how to use it. It allowed the mouse to stay still and move
the menu (via scrolling) rather than keeping the menu fixed and moving
the mouse. Once I got used to that, it was much, much more productive
than moving my mouse all over the screen. Would there be some way to
incorporate that? Thanks - John
2:21 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On 1/22/11, John A. Sullivan III <jsullivan(a)opensourcedevel.com> wrote:
On Sat, 2011-01-22 at 17:48 -0500, Katheryne Draven
wrote:
John
that's not a bad idea, Productivity Tools. Perhaps the answer it so to
create new parent directories, one for Desktop Publishing, One for
Productivity Tools, etc.
I need to think about it, but this is the input I needed. Thanks.
As for the kde4 kmenu not, being mouse responsive (no auto-selection),
I completely agree. I think auto selection was a bad idea to begin
with. I've found it to be a bother rather than a use feature.
I do hope its something we can use.
thank you again for the useful input.
Kate
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old
Man) an odt and pdf of
the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
<snip>
I can certainly relate to the usability issues you identify. May I
suggest renaming Desktop Publishing. That has very specific meaning to
many folks such as myself. I'm not sure what a good name would be
because there are so many important items in there. Perhaps something
like Productivity Tools, Office Tools, Business Tools - I'm not sure.
I'll admit that I didn't like the KDE4 menu system at all but, as I used
it more and more, I realized it did make one important improvement once
it sunk in how to use it. It allowed the mouse to stay still and move
the menu (via scrolling) rather than keeping the menu fixed and moving
the mouse. Once I got used to that, it was much, much more productive
than moving my mouse all over the screen. Would there be some way to
incorporate that? Thanks - John
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2:56 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
Long Response Incoming. Do not be offended by the response.
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 17:48, Katheryne Draven <borgqueen4(a)gmail.com> wrote:
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an
odt and pdf of
the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I'm sorry, being under 20 is old? o_O
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
This is an another attempt, based on the attempt by Borg^Queen (the
android running Windows Vista build 1), to improve upon the KDE menu
system and make it more organized.
I am going to be referring to Kickoff, the KDE3 alternate menu and the
KDE4 default menu.
The favorites menu is usually the first place people see – and in
turn, the place that many people expect all their favorite
applications to exist. When people have to put in the effort (elderly
and middle-life crisis people (Borg^Queen)) to navigate to their all
programs menu, it just doesn't work out.
Let's keep a short list of what people come to expect here.
A web browser (Firefox, Chromium, Rekonq, Midori)
An email client (Thunderbird, Evolution, Kmail) Although there is the
idea just to put a link to a webpage showing the most popular email
sites.
A word processor (LibreOffice, AbiWord, Koffice)
A File Browser (Dolphin, Konqueror)
A Personal Settings Link (Many distributions call it System Settings,
confusing users)
A System Settings Link (Requires Root Access)
A help option (For the easily confused)
This usually provides almost everything a user needs to get started on
his/her computer. For those of us who have an application not listed
in there that we want, we usually dive into the Applications tab.
Let's go through a typical KDE menu.
Development
Education
Games
Graphics
Internet
Multimedia
Office
System
Utilities
Help (Link to help browser)
YaST (or other related System Tool)
This is very complicated for the modern day user. Sure, it's
alphabetical! Ooh, this is great! No. It's not.
Let's see an example of why. We'll use Mandriva's setup:
Internet
Office
Graphics
Sound & Video
Tools
Development
Fewer categories, more simplicity. Of course, there's more clutter,
but that's up to the user to clean up all that crap. Internet and
Office at the top – The most used applications are usually
Internet-connected Software and Productivity software.
If I had to make a menu style, it would look a bit more like this:
Internet
Office
Multimedia (Graphics and “Sound & Video”/”Multimedia” combined)
Games
Education
Windows Applications (Wine)
Tools (Includes System and Utilities)
Development
More Applications (Lost & Found... This happens rarely, but it still does)
It's very close to Mandriva's, I admit that. But truthfully, it's
probably the more logical one.
You should see how Fedora butcher's theirs with upstream's.
I've found apps in the wrong categories.
You can find a few submenus. But NOT TOO MANY!
That's where I think openSUSE got it wrong. It's more work to the
average user, and a pain in the ass after a navigating them a few
times.
The search menu at the top of Kicker? I've been using SuSE and Kicker
for a long time but I didn't even notice that until 11.1 came out.
*Assume people are oblivious to the obvious.*
I've seen stuff like this:
Kickoff > Applications > Internet > Web Browsers > More > Firefox
Me: -___-******
Submenus? Here's how I will break it down.
Internet
Messaging
Web Browsers
Office
Office Suite
Business Tools
Multimedia (Graphics and “Sound & Video”/”Multimedia” combined)
Graphics
Music
Video
Games
Education
Windows Applications (Wine)
(we can have Windows emulated start menu here)
Tools (Includes System and Utilities)
(see below for this)
Development
IDEs
Debuggers
(I'm drawing a blank for this)
More Applications (Lost & Found... This happens rarely, but it still does)
Borg^Queen did this layout:
Desktop Publishing (Contains everything related to published documents
of all kinds)
Development
Edutainment & Health
Emulators
Games
Graphics (symlinked)
Lost & Found
Multimedia (both audio and video)
Network
Settings
System
User-Apps (This is a special directory that initially remains empty.
Users can place their fav apps and link other menu subdir into this
one. Some distros I proposed this to are now calling it a “favourite”
directory.)
Truthfully, I find Settings and System too similar in meaning.
Emulators? Many people don't know what that is when they first try out
a Linux system.
Edutainment & Health: not crazy about this.
Lost & Found: it's like KDE lost an app you just installed.
Desktop Publishing: I saw you have Finance in there... Wouldn't that
make it more than Desktop Publishing? Um... Office?
I'm not going to go into the details like what kind of apps should be
in each category.
The thing is, less is better for some people. And giving sub-menu
after sub-menu will drive someone crazy (eventually) if they are not
already by looking at the structure.
And regarding submenus in Tools:
Tools >
System-Wide Settings submenu
Any system setting that isn't in YaST (or
other System Tool)
The
Rest of the stuff
here is all Utilities
That nobody cares about
(usually)
You're then asking, where does YaST (or other system tool) and
Personal Settings go?
Please move the tab over to Computer in the Kicker menu and See above.
For those of us who like old-fashioned mouse-moving Kmenu, It would
look something like this:
Recently
Used
Apps
-----------
Internet
Office
Multimedia (Graphics and “Sound & Video”/”Multimedia” combined)
Games
Education
Windows Applications (Wine)
Tools (Includes System and Utilities)
System-Wide Settings
Random Utilities Here
Development
More Applications (Lost & Found... This happens rarely, but it still does)
----------
Personal Settings
YaST (or related system tool)
----------
A Favorites Menu
Favorite
Apps
here
Switch User
End Session
In the end, all I'm trying to say is that if you break it up too much,
it's worse than what it was in the beginning.
Feel free to criticize, laugh, humiliate, or hate. :)
--
later, Robert Xu
3:35 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On Sat, 2011-01-22 at 21:56 -0500, Robert Xu wrote:
Long Response Incoming. Do not be offended by the
response.
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 17:48, Katheryne Draven <borgqueen4(a)gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old
Man) an odt and pdf of
the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I'm sorry, being under 20 is old? o_O
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
You can find a few submenus. But NOT TOO MANY!
That's where I think openSUSE got it wrong. It's more work to the
average user, and a pain in the ass after a navigating them a few
times.
<snip>
I'm not going to go into the details like what
kind of apps should be
in each category.
The thing is, less is better for some people. And giving sub-menu
after sub-menu will drive someone crazy (eventually) if they are not
already by looking at the structure.
<snip>
I don't like lots of submenus either but there are so many options
available in Linux that the huge menus which can popup are more
cumbersome and confusing that the submenus. I think we need to find a
reasonable balance - John
3:41 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 22:35, John A. Sullivan III
<jsullivan(a)opensourcedevel.com> wrote:
I don't like lots of submenus either but there are
so many options
available in Linux that the huge menus which can popup are more
cumbersome and confusing that the submenus. I think we need to find a
reasonable balance - John
The way I see it, we should try to create a submenu that has a broad
meaning but doesn't completely include all the apps.
For example, we could say Office > Management for finance and other
such applications such as to-do lists
And also Office > Processors for Word/Spreadsheet/Presentation Processors...
I forgot to mention - no more than one submenu.
--
later, Robert Xu
1:05 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On 1/22/11, Robert Xu <robxu9(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 22:35, John A. Sullivan III
<jsullivan(a)opensourcedevel.com> wrote:
All of this is very useful so thanks for that. Ru_X, dueling pistols at dawn.
With regard to multiple submenus. Over 4 years of testing has shown me
people aren't put off my them, so long as they are logically ordered
and well labeled. What does put them off, is being bombarded by
dozens, even hundreds of apps under one or two submenus (choice, both
the beauty and curse of FOSS). With multiple, logically labeled,
submenus they can just follow along. They key is, logical progression,
informative labeling, and this is also the rub. A problem I've been
dealing with for a while, I'm close but I need help. So I'm thankful
for this opportunity.
Regarding terminology, its important to avoid pop computing terms such
as folders, windows apps, because it fails to educate the user. The
use of improper terms by MS was an attempt (in my opinion and the
opinions of many) to create a dependency on windows. Prove it to
yourself, find a windows user and ask them to create a folder on their
desktop. When they're finished, ask them to create a directory. 90% of
the time they will draw blank. FOSS is said to be about freedom of
knowledge, how can that knowledge be passed on if everything is being
dumbed down.
Dumbing down is the worst thing anyone can do. I give you the NJ
Educational system. 10 years ago it began dumbing everything down to
"make it easier for kids to get an education" now NJ is a state of
illiterates. Young adults entering college unable to read to any
useful degree. NJ has learned a hard lesson and as a result as been
forced to take such actions as eliminating the grade D. Forcing
parents, students and teachers to work harder. Its been working.
There is a difference between making something accessible and useless.
I have faith in people's ability to adapt and learn. I've seen it in
action and I'm willing to bet on it by building something better.
/action: Kate hops off her soapbox pulpit.
Thanks (and I do mean that) to all
Kate
I don't like lots of submenus either but
there are so many options
available in Linux that the huge menus which can popup are more
cumbersome and confusing that the submenus. I think we need to find a
reasonable balance - John
The way I see it, we should try to create a submenu that has a broad
meaning but doesn't completely include all the apps.
For example, we could say Office > Management for finance and other
such applications such as to-do lists
And also Office > Processors for Word/Spreadsheet/Presentation Processors...
I forgot to mention - no more than one submenu.
--
later, Robert Xu
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24 Jan
24 Jan
11:50 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On 01/23/2011 07:05 AM, Katheryne Draven wrote:
On 1/22/11, Robert Xu <robxu9(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 22:35, John A. Sullivan III
<snip>
>> I don't like lots of submenus either but
there are so many options
>> available in Linux that the huge menus which can popup are more
>> cumbersome and confusing that the submenus. I think we need to find a
>> reasonable balance - John
>>
Exactly, the key is balance. I understand that people have personal preference
for "more or less" or "standard menu verses kickoff", but there is no
replacement for a clean default menu. When a menu expands to 2 columns, my eyes
glaze over hunting for the app I want hoping like heck that it is "Named"
correctly. Desktops get completely unusable very quickly when know applications
get hidden under some ridiculous "Description - Name" layout in whatever menu
you use. For example, in July, my apps disappeared and this was what greeted me
in lost+found:
[131k]
http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/arch/bugs/kde3-lost+found-menu.jpg
One thing that absolutely drove me crazy with the kickoff style menu was
everything was hidden from view and it was (and still is unnavigable). Even with
icon size reduced to 22-28, you click on System and only see the first 8 or so
submenus or entries and then you have to 'scroll' hoping what you want is
somewhere further down in the list and then repeat the process until you find
the right menu or submenu. Horribly inefficient. The 'search' feature fails in
this regard because if you use it, it doesn't tell you where the app you found
lives. That's one of the reasons I have always preferred the traditional kmenu
over kickoff -- it was much more visual.
Another issue with kickoff is the 'Favorite' view. If what you want is already
in your favorites, then your fine, but it not, then it is back to the game of
hide-and-seek. The default kickoff is basically empty. So for the new user, you
are forced to go 'build a menu' before it becomes usable. Then the limitations
of the kickoff become apparent. If you use no more than 10 apps, you will
probably be OK after you add everything to the favorites. If you use more, then
it is back to hunting for apps or scrolling through a list that extends out of
site defeating the 'fly-out' auto opening of subs for access.
>
> The way I see it, we should try to create a submenu that has a broad
> meaning but doesn't completely include all the apps.
> For example, we could say Office > Management for finance and other
> such applications such as to-do lists
> And also Office > Processors for Word/Spreadsheet/Presentation Processors...
>
> I forgot to mention - no more than one submenu.
I respect Robert's input here. (I assume Robert means a maxdepth of 2 (toplevel
+ 1-sublevel) when speaking of 'no more than one submenu') When I click on a
menu or submenu, I only want to see a dozen or so entries. At most -- a single
column on a 900 px height display. If the menu entries are logical and
descriptive, I don't think a maxdepth of 3 is necessary, even considering the
number of utilities and apps that need a home in the menu. I think it can all be
done with:
Development
------------
quick list of 3-5 most used apps
------------
Submenu1
Submenu2
Submenu3
...
Education
------------
quick list of 3-5 most used apps
------------
Submenu1
Submenu2
Submenu3
...
Games
------------
quick list of 3-5 most used apps
------------
Submenu1
Submenu2
Submenu3
..
etc...
The key here is toplevel design. When you click on kmenu
With regard to multiple submenus. Over 4 years of testing has shown me
people aren't put off my them, so long as they are logically ordered
and well labeled.
+1
What does put them off, is being bombarded by
dozens, even hundreds of apps under one or two
submenus (choice, both
the beauty and curse of FOSS). With multiple, logically labeled,
submenus they can just follow along. They key is, logical progression,
informative labeling, and this is also the rub. A problem I've been
dealing with for a while, I'm close but I need help. So I'm thankful
for this opportunity.
Well put.
<snip>
FOSS is said to be about freedom of
knowledge, how can that knowledge be passed on if everything is being
dumbed down.
dumbed down = frustratingly useless
No one expects to go into any desktop and not expect some type of learning
curve. Logic and clarity minimizes the frustration and allows the reasonable
user to find the app or information they need with the minimum of learning. You
can 'focus group' what the 'average joe' thinks is the correct name for a
menu
or application should be to the point of absurdity and then end up with menu
entries like "My Computer" that pop up more windows and tabs and buttons that
eventually show you a MAC address (or whatever).
The point being, providing a logical working menu that correctly identifies and
categorizes applications and information is far easier to learn than some
esoteric set of 'cute' names that eventually lead somewhere. (you can memorize
the telephone book with enough effort, but once you have succeeded, you have
actually learned nothing except how to memorize)
That is why I applaud this effort and think the result will, while keeping
Robert's caution about "how Fedora butcher's theirs" in mind, be one of
the best
standardizations that Trinity can do.
<snip>
There is a difference between making something accessible and useless.
I have faith in people's ability to adapt and learn. I've seen it in
action and I'm willing to bet on it by building something better.
/action: Kate hops off her soapbox pulpit.
I think you are doing a fantastic job and taking the right approach -- soapbox
and all. I can't wait to see what results.
(Now back to figuring out how to build trinity on Arch so I can dump the old
version of KDEmod3 for good :-)
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Rankin Law Firm, PLLC
510 Ochiltree Street
Nacogdoches, Texas 75961
Telephone: (936) 715-9333
Facsimile: (936) 715-9339
www.rankinlawfirm.com
25 Jan
25 Jan
6:49 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On Monday 24 January 2011 23:50:22 David C. Rankin wrote:
On 01/23/2011 07:05 AM, Katheryne Draven wrote:
Dare I say it... I like the menu in KDE 3.5.10. I don't think it is perfect,
I don't think that it cannot be improved, but by and large I can find things.
My one gripe about it is that on the rare occasions that I reinstall, I have
to search all over again for the right action to get rid of those pesky
favourites. <ducks and dons flame-proof suit> I work from the keyboard, and
there is a limit to the number of keystrokes I want to have to use to
shutdown.
But I don't forget that Kate is actually *doing* something, not just sitting
on the sidelines. She therefore has the casting vote as far as I am
concerned!
Lisi
On 1/22/11, Robert Xu <robxu9(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 22:35, John A. Sullivan III
<snip>
>> I don't like lots of submenus either
but there are so many options
>> available in Linux that the huge menus which can popup are more
>> cumbersome and confusing that the submenus. I think we need to find a
>> reasonable balance - John
Exactly, the key is balance. I understand that people have personal
preference for "more or less" or "standard menu verses kickoff", but
there
is no replacement for a clean default menu. When a menu expands to 2
columns, my eyes glaze over hunting for the app I want hoping like heck
that it is "Named" correctly. Desktops get completely unusable very quickly
when know applications get hidden under some ridiculous "Description -
Name" layout in whatever menu you use. For example, in July, my apps
disappeared and this was what greeted me in lost+found:
[131k]
http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/arch/bugs/kde3-lost+found-menu.jpg
One thing that absolutely drove me crazy with the kickoff style menu was
everything was hidden from view and it was (and still is unnavigable). Even
with icon size reduced to 22-28, you click on System and only see the first
8 or so submenus or entries and then you have to 'scroll' hoping what you
want is somewhere further down in the list and then repeat the process
until you find the right menu or submenu. Horribly inefficient. The
'search' feature fails in this regard because if you use it, it doesn't
tell you where the app you found lives. That's one of the reasons I have
always preferred the traditional kmenu over kickoff -- it was much more
visual.
Another issue with kickoff is the 'Favorite' view. If what you want is
already in your favorites, then your fine, but it not, then it is back to
the game of hide-and-seek. The default kickoff is basically empty. So for
the new user, you are forced to go 'build a menu' before it becomes usable.
Then the limitations of the kickoff become apparent. If you use no more
than 10 apps, you will probably be OK after you add everything to the
favorites. If you use more, then it is back to hunting for apps or
scrolling through a list that extends out of site defeating the 'fly-out'
auto opening of subs for access.
> The way I see it, we should try to create a
submenu that has a broad
> meaning but doesn't completely include all the apps.
> For example, we could say Office > Management for finance and other
> such applications such as to-do lists
> And also Office > Processors for Word/Spreadsheet/Presentation
> Processors...
>
> I forgot to mention - no more than one submenu.
I respect Robert's input here. (I assume Robert means a maxdepth of 2
(toplevel + 1-sublevel) when speaking of 'no more than one submenu') When I
click on a menu or submenu, I only want to see a dozen or so entries. At
most -- a single column on a 900 px height display. If the menu entries are
logical and descriptive, I don't think a maxdepth of 3 is necessary, even
considering the number of utilities and apps that need a home in the menu.
I think it can all be done with:
Development
------------
quick list of 3-5 most used apps
------------
Submenu1
Submenu2
Submenu3
...
Education
------------
quick list of 3-5 most used apps
------------
Submenu1
Submenu2
Submenu3
...
Games
------------
quick list of 3-5 most used apps
------------
Submenu1
Submenu2
Submenu3
..
etc...
The key here is toplevel design. When you click on kmenu
With regard to multiple submenus. Over 4 years of
testing has shown me
people aren't put off my them, so long as they are logically ordered
and well labeled.
+1
What does put them off, is being bombarded by
dozens, even hundreds of apps under one or two
submenus (choice, both
the beauty and curse of FOSS). With multiple, logically labeled,
submenus they can just follow along. They key is, logical progression,
informative labeling, and this is also the rub. A problem I've been
dealing with for a while, I'm close but I need help. So I'm thankful
for this opportunity.
Well put.
<snip>
FOSS is said to be about freedom of
knowledge, how can that knowledge be passed on if everything is being
dumbed down.
dumbed down = frustratingly useless
No one expects to go into any desktop and not expect some type of learning
curve. Logic and clarity minimizes the frustration and allows the
reasonable user to find the app or information they need with the minimum
of learning. You can 'focus group' what the 'average joe' thinks is the
correct name for a menu or application should be to the point of absurdity
and then end up with menu entries like "My Computer" that pop up more
windows and tabs and buttons that eventually show you a MAC address (or
whatever).
The point being, providing a logical working menu that correctly identifies
and categorizes applications and information is far easier to learn than
some esoteric set of 'cute' names that eventually lead somewhere. (you can
memorize the telephone book with enough effort, but once you have
succeeded, you have actually learned nothing except how to memorize)
That is why I applaud this effort and think the result will, while keeping
Robert's caution about "how Fedora butcher's theirs" in mind, be one of
the
best standardizations that Trinity can do.
<snip>
There is a difference between making something
accessible and useless.
I have faith in people's ability to adapt and learn. I've seen it in
action and I'm willing to bet on it by building something better.
/action: Kate hops off her soapbox pulpit.
I think you are doing a fantastic job and taking the right approach --
soapbox and all. I can't wait to see what results.
(Now back to figuring out how to build trinity on Arch so I can dump the
old version of KDEmod3 for good :-)
24 Jan
24 Jan
1:06 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On 01/22/2011 04:48 PM, Katheryne Draven wrote:
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an
odt and pdf of
the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
Thank you Kate!
I generally spend a couple of hours sorting apps into their logical places when
I start with a fresh install. Standardizing kmenu into a logical order limiting
each menu/submenu entry to ~ 10-15 items with a max depth of ~4 is much needed.
Here are two thoughts for consideration:
(1) of the existing distros that did a good job with kmenu, SuSE's inclusion of
a 'Utilities' submenu that held all the kde apps really helped with
organization. Here is a shot of what I adapted from an old openSuSE 11.0 install:
[93k]
http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/dt/trinity/ss/kmenu-utilities.jpg
(2) everybody also has a subset of applications they use most frequently. What I
call "mytools" or I guess what "User-Apps" is intended for in your
setup. For
what it is worth, here is a shot of the collection of mytools that may have a
submenu or two that may be of interest:
[138k]
http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/dt/trinity/ss/kmenu-mytools.jpg
(I don't know how the duplicate basket entries got there. On suse, when you edit
the gnome menu, you often get unwanted side-effects in the k3 menu as well)
I think this effort to tame the kmenu jungle is well worth the time and I thank
you for your efforts.
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Rankin Law Firm, PLLC
510 Ochiltree Street
Nacogdoches, Texas 75961
Telephone: (936) 715-9333
Facsimile: (936) 715-9339
www.rankinlawfirm.com
10:58 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On 01/22/2011 04:48 PM, Katheryne Draven wrote:
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an
odt and pdf of
the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
Kate, All,
I don't know how to do it, but this sure seems like the perfect topic for some
type of collaboration tool that would allow all comments for the proposed
toplevel menus and submenus to be hosted somewhere. I envision something, for
lack of better words, like a spreadsheet laid out something similar to the
following:
MENU ALT NAME PROS CONS VOTES (WHATEVER)
------ ---------- ------ ----- ------
where the current proposal of applications-kmenuedit.menu (or whatever the
filename is) can be dumped and made web accessible in some wiki/blog or other
interactive format to facilitate collaboration in a way that is better than
trying to keep track of a string of emails.
I don't know how much work that would be, or if it is worth doing, but it just
seems like it would make it easier to collect and analyze the great input and
feedback that this thread has produced. Anybody know of a quick way to set
something like this up? Doesn't seem like space or bandwidth would be an issue
with something of this scope.
Just a thought to try and capture this information in a way that would help
boil it down to what will be implemented and help offload some of the work on
Kate... who I presume is the one that is collecting all the comments and thoughts.
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Rankin Law Firm, PLLC
510 Ochiltree Street
Nacogdoches, Texas 75961
Telephone: (936) 715-9333
Facsimile: (936) 715-9339
www.rankinlawfirm.com
11:29 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On 01/22/2011 04:48 PM, Katheryne Draven wrote:
<snip>
How about the Wiki?
http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/ProposedSystem…
Tim
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old
Man) an odt and pdf of
the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
Kate, All,
I don't know how to do it, but this sure seems like the perfect topic for
some
type of collaboration tool that would allow all comments for the proposed
toplevel menus and submenus to be hosted somewhere.
25 Jan
25 Jan
12:18 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On 01/24/2011 05:29 PM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
<snip>
I think that's doable, but my first thought was the auto generated TOC wouldn't
allow for alternatives to be easily shown without doing some type of table. I
guess we could do something like:
- autogen TOC (The Menu Entries)
- Summary (Table)
- Each Entry Discussion
The only drawback I see to the wiki is the wiki syntax. It's not that difficult,
I agree, but it can be an impediment. We would also need to keep in mind, and
limit, the topic headings to the menu entries and make the topic/subtopic order
reflect the menu layout.
Do we want to do a 'divide-and-conquer'? Have one person on the list originally
volunteer to build one of the toplevel and submenu layout in the wiki? I'll take
one. We can start with Kate's proposed toplevel and go from there:
Desktop Publishing
Development
Edutainment & Health
Emulators
Games
Graphics
Lost & Found
Multimedia
Network
Settings
System
User-Apps
Why don't you get the names of other volunteers and assign a name to each entry
(me included) and we'll get going. For those (like me) who are not immediately
familiar with the toplevel/sub/entry(and category) of Trinity. It would be
helpful to get a list of the current menu hierarchy in trinity. Just a simple:
file1.menu -> file2.menu -> etc. so we can confirm we get everything included.
Thanks.
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Rankin Law Firm, PLLC
510 Ochiltree Street
Nacogdoches, Texas 75961
Telephone: (936) 715-9333
Facsimile: (936) 715-9339
www.rankinlawfirm.com
I don't
know how to do it, but this sure seems like the perfect topic for
some
type of collaboration tool that would allow all comments for the proposed
toplevel menus and submenus to be hosted somewhere.
<snip>
How about the Wiki?
http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/ProposedSystem…
Tim
26 Jan
26 Jan
3:28 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On 01/24/2011 06:18 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 01/24/2011 05:29 PM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
<snip>
> How about the Wiki?
>
http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/ProposedSystem…
>
> Tim
OK,
I have started the page:
http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/ProposedSystem…
but I must admit "wiki markup HATES me". I have included the toplevel and a
couple of thoughts under each (hoping that would help the TOC straighten itself
out), but for some reason the wiki wasn't accepting the standard section level
designations of '==' and '===' and so on. (Lord knows it was probably my
fault,
but I was looking at a wiki markup reference and it still wasn't working...) I
have found I'm much better at editing or adding to an existing wiki rather than
starting one from scratch.
The outline is supposed to be:
==Trinity Kmenu Standardization Proposal==
==Current Summary==
===Desktop Publishing===
===Development===
===Edutainment & Health===
===Emulators===
===Games===
===Graphics===
===Lost & Found===
===Multimedia===
===Network===
===Settings===
===System===
===User-Apps===
==Kmenu source files and inclusion order==
but as you can see, the wiki is eating a few of the '==' entries and failing to
recognize the '===' markup. If someone smarter than I on wiki markup can tweak
it, it would be appreciated.
At any rate, the page is there. If we can get the summarized information from
the kmail thread in there, then I think we can pick up the collaboration on the
wiki instead of in a string of emails to capture the thoughts and ideas in a
single location.
Since I didn't start the thread, I felt awkward providing the summary for the
menu entries and I didn't want to 'step on anyones toes' by doing it.
Kate, since I'm following your lead here, I don't want to usurp your effort and
I'd feel better if you put your current thoughts in as a starting point.
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Rankin Law Firm, PLLC
510 Ochiltree Street
Nacogdoches, Texas 75961
Telephone: (936) 715-9333
Facsimile: (936) 715-9339
www.rankinlawfirm.com
3:41 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On 01/26/2011 09:28 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:
but I must admit "wiki markup HATES me"
Raw edit works better, but I still can't get the TOC to generate or the wiki to
accept the == section designations. So we need a bit of help here :(
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Rankin Law Firm, PLLC
510 Ochiltree Street
Nacogdoches, Texas 75961
Telephone: (936) 715-9333
Facsimile: (936) 715-9339
www.rankinlawfirm.com
4:28 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On 1/26/11, David C. Rankin <drankinatty(a)suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
On 01/26/2011 09:28 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:
Not much of a wiki user, tend to avoid social like network stuff. So
I'll need some guidance and time.
but I must admit "wiki markup HATES me"
Raw edit works better, but I still can't get the TOC to generate or the wiki
to
accept the == section designations. So we need a bit of help here :(
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Rankin Law Firm, PLLC
510 Ochiltree Street
Nacogdoches, Texas 75961
Telephone: (936) 715-9333
Facsimile: (936) 715-9339
www.rankinlawfirm.com
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5:41 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On 01/26/2011 09:28 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:
That is a "feature" I have been fighting with as well. My best advice is
to put a space in between each equals sign, so rather than
foo == bar
you would write
foo = = bar
Tim
but I must admit "wiki markup HATES me"
Raw edit works better, but I still can't get the TOC to generate or the
wiki to
accept the == section designations. So we need a bit of help here :(
8:06 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On 01/26/2011 11:41 AM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
Thanks Tim,
Here is the wiki markup reference I'm trying to use to get the sections and
TOC working:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_markup
I know it works, I have created sections and TOC entries for the Arch Linux
wiki many times. Is there some setting that can be tweaked on the trinity wiki
install that would help it interpret the normal wiki markup?
I've never installed a wiki package before, so I don't know if there is
something similar to a httpd.conf or php.ini for it that would control how it
behaves?
--
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On 01/26/2011
09:28 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:
That is a "feature" I have been fighting with as well. My best advice is
to put a space in between each equals sign, so rather than
foo == bar
you would write
foo = = bar
Tim
but I must admit "wiki markup HATES me"
Raw edit works better, but I still can't get the TOC to generate or the
wiki to
accept the == section designations. So we need a bit of help here :(
9:32 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Kmenu Reasoning Explained
On Wednesday 26 Jan 2011 15:28:58 David C. Rankin wrote:
the wiki is eating a few of the '==' entries
and failing to
recognize the '===' markup. If someone smarter than I on wiki markup can
tweak it, it would be appreciated.
Different Wikis have different markups. The Trinity Wiki is FOSWiki. See
http://foswiki.org/System/TextFormattingRules for FOSWiki's markup.
I have corrected the headers to use FOSWiki markup.
HTH
Neil Youngman
5087
days inactive
5091
days old
18 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
David C. Rankin -
John A. Sullivan III -
Katheryne Draven -
Lisi -
Neil Youngman -
Robert Xu -
Timothy Pearson