My internal 2 tb SSD has suddenly become "locked"; even though I myself didn't lock it. The good people at Mc$haft started nagging me about enabling UEFI partitioning, but I had managed to get round that by using grub instead.
Now, however, that 2 tb SSD will not mount at all as a separate drive. When I try to boot from a Devuan installation USB, that works just fine, as usual ... *unless* that 2 tb USB is present in the system.
I get a window asking for a password to unlock it. I never set a password for this SSD, nor an admin password (for the boot process) until the system started asking me to set one.
I did manage to back up all the data on that SSD before this happened, but now I can only boot the system from a 250 gb USB, where I have installed my Devuan system, with root, swap and home partitions, and it runs nearly perfectly, just like always ... or usually always, until crap like this happens.
This SSD I bought specially to put in the laptop in order to replace the factory-installed 128 gb SSD. The original factory SSD will only boot into Mc$haft's registration process. This newer SSD, where for the past couple years I have had my system installed, been running fine, will not boot at all. When it is present at boot, I cannot boot an installation USB or disc, cannot boot a repair disc, cannot even boot my home partition (the one now installed on the USB) if that 2 tb USB is present.
I tried a sort of dangerous hardware hack, which was to open up the laptop, and hotplug the 2 tb SSD, just to see if the system would recognize it.
So here is (are) my question(s):
Can I get the system to recognize this 2 tb SSD. It is plugged in, but doesn't appear?
Do I need to buy some sort of gadget (an enclosure or something?) so that I can plug in the SSD as if it were a USB drive?
Can I somehow reformat this 2 tb SSD without buying more stuff?
Any help will be appreciated!
Bill
William Morder composed on 2024-09-07 08:53 (UTC-0700):
Do I need to buy some sort of gadget (an enclosure or something?) so that I can plug in the SSD as if it were a USB drive?
Can I somehow reformat this 2 tb SSD without buying more stuff?
It's something most of us should have in our tools boxes anyway: https://www.newegg.com/rosewill-rcuc-16001/p/N82E16812119874
On Saturday 07 September 2024 09:34:27 Felix Miata via tde-users wrote:
William Morder composed on 2024-09-07 08:53 (UTC-0700):
Do I need to buy some sort of gadget (an enclosure or something?) so that I can plug in the SSD as if it were a USB drive?
Can I somehow reformat this 2 tb SSD without buying more stuff?
It's something most of us should have in our tools boxes anyway: https://www.newegg.com/rosewill-rcuc-16001/p/N82E16812119874
Yes, and I believe that I bought an older version of this, maybe a different brand. Now I have to go and search for it, but I don't know it it will work, anyway, as mine was for SATA II, USB 2.0, I think.
Anyway, if that's all I need, then I ought to be able to get this problem solved pretty quickly.
Bill
Hello all,
On Saturday 07 September 2024 17:53:54 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
I tried a sort of dangerous hardware hack, which was to open up the laptop, and hotplug the 2 tb SSD, just to see if the system would recognize it.
Oh dear :-) how could hot plugging help? It can make only thing worse if anything.
So here is (are) my question(s):
Can I get the system to recognize this 2 tb SSD. It is plugged in, but doesn't appear?
You mean: dir /dev/disk/by-id/
Does not show this drive at all?
Do I need to buy some sort of gadget (an enclosure or something?) so that I can plug in the SSD as if it were a USB drive?
If you want to use it as USB, yes.
Can I somehow reformat this 2 tb SSD without buying more stuff?
Well, if it is not recognized at all (because it is damaged), than no. And if it is, and it is not damaged, all you would need is attaching it -- formatting is possible if it is connected directly, or via USB.
Kind regards,
On Saturday 07 September 2024 09:44:31 Maciej Pilichowski via tde-users wrote:
Hello all,
On Saturday 07 September 2024 17:53:54 William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
I tried a sort of dangerous hardware hack, which was to open up the laptop, and hotplug the 2 tb SSD, just to see if the system would recognize it.
Oh dear :-) how could hot plugging help? It can make only thing worse if anything.
Well, I don't intend to make a habit of hot plugging, but I cannot have it installed on boot, otherwise it is locked, and cannot be bypassed, and then I cannot get into my system at all. This happens even before grub, and I cannot get into the bios when this SSD is in the machine.
So ... I intend to go out and buy something to attach it as an external drive, then hope to reformat that way, then decide how to use it.
At present, this SSD is a brick, anyway, and I already saved all the data. So if I can't find a way to get the system to recognize it, mount it, reformat it, then it is money down the drain anyway.
So here is (are) my question(s):
Can I get the system to recognize this 2 tb SSD. It is plugged in, but doesn't appear?
You mean: dir /dev/disk/by-id/
Does not show this drive at all?
No, nothing shows up for this SSD. My other drives (attached via USB) do show up, however.
Do I need to buy some sort of gadget (an enclosure or something?) so that I can plug in the SSD as if it were a USB drive?
If you want to use it as USB, yes.
I want to mount it as a USB, reformat it, then decide how to use it. If this might happen again, then I will keep running my machine from the USB.
Can I somehow reformat this 2 tb SSD without buying more stuff?
Well, if it is not recognized at all (because it is damaged), than no. And if it is, and it is not damaged, all you would need is attaching it -- formatting is possible if it is connected directly, or via USB.
Obviously it is "recognized" in some fashion; because if I shut down the machine, plug in the drive, then boot again, I find that the machine and/or SSD is locked, requires a password, etc. So it is not entirely corrupt.
After I get something to attach it as an external drive, I believe that I will get a little more control over the situation.
Anno domini 2024 Sat, 7 Sep 08:53:54 -0700 William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
My internal 2 tb SSD has suddenly become "locked"; even though I myself didn't lock it. The good people at Mc$haft started nagging me about enabling UEFI partitioning, but I had managed to get round that by using grub instead. [...]
Just to clearify: is this a lenovo laptop? If yes, there are some models where the internal sata connector took a leave from his place on the mainboard, creating creative error messages on the way.
Nik
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On Saturday 07 September 2024 09:57:09 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
Anno domini 2024 Sat, 7 Sep 08:53:54 -0700
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
My internal 2 tb SSD has suddenly become "locked"; even though I myself didn't lock it. The good people at Mc$haft started nagging me about enabling UEFI partitioning, but I had managed to get round that by using grub instead. [...]
Just to clearify: is this a lenovo laptop? If yes, there are some models where the internal sata connector took a leave from his place on the mainboard, creating creative error messages on the way.
Nik
Hi Nik!
Yes, it is a Lenovo Ideapad 3-15, only a couple years old. The 2 tb SSD was bought specifically to replace the factory-installed 128 gb SSD, so that nothing Windoze would ever be permitted to run on this machine. Until now, of course, when Mc$haft reappears out ot nowhere.
Bill
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 08:53:54 -0700 William Morder via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
My internal 2 tb SSD has suddenly become "locked"; even though I myself didn't lock it. The good people at Mc$haft started nagging me about enabling UEFI partitioning, but I had managed to get round that by using grub instead.
[...]
This newer SSD, where for the past couple years I have had my system installed, been running fine, will not boot at all.
Is this a Samsung SSD? The reason I ask is that they've had issues recently: some 970/980/990 SSDs were shipped with bad firmware that causes them to age and die prematurely. A firmware update was published, but it only prevents further premature aging and doesn't fix drives that have already died, from what I understand. (There are also rumours of some batches of 870 EVOs being flaky, but I don't think that was ever confirmed by the manufacturer.)
If your drive is one of the affected Samsung models, you may be out of luck, although your description of the failure doesn't match the most common manifestation of this issue, which has the drive dropping to read-only.
E. Liddell
On Saturday 07 September 2024 10:26:55 E. Liddell via tde-users wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 08:53:54 -0700
William Morder via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
My internal 2 tb SSD has suddenly become "locked"; even though I myself didn't lock it. The good people at Mc$haft started nagging me about enabling UEFI partitioning, but I had managed to get round that by using grub instead.
[...]
This newer SSD, where for the past couple years I have had my system installed, been running fine, will not boot at all.
Is this a Samsung SSD? The reason I ask is that they've had issues recently: some 970/980/990 SSDs were shipped with bad firmware that causes them to age and die prematurely. A firmware update was published, but it only prevents further premature aging and doesn't fix drives that have already died, from what I understand. (There are also rumours of some batches of 870 EVOs being flaky, but I don't think that was ever confirmed by the manufacturer.)
Indeed yes, I believe that it is a Samsung 970 SSD. (I need to shut down the machine and take it apart to look, but I believe it's one of those.)
Going to dig out my SATA/SSD tool, similar to that to which Felix gave a link -- and, if it fits my newer SSD -- I will be better prepared. It may be that I will need an adapter, or even need to buy a new one of these tools, but I was imagining that I might have to do that anyway. If this tool works, at least with an adapter, that will be a simple and cheap fix, just requires a bit of walking and digging, and I need the exercise.
If your drive is one of the affected Samsung models, you may be out of luck, although your description of the failure doesn't match the most common manifestation of this issue, which has the drive dropping to read-only.
E. Liddell
More later.
Bill
On Saturday 07 September 2024 10:26:55 E. Liddell via tde-users wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2024 08:53:54 -0700
William Morder via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
My internal 2 tb SSD has suddenly become "locked"; even though I myself didn't lock it. The good people at Mc$haft started nagging me about enabling UEFI partitioning, but I had managed to get round that by using grub instead.
[...]
This newer SSD, where for the past couple years I have had my system installed, been running fine, will not boot at all.
Is this a Samsung SSD? The reason I ask is that they've had issues recently: some 970/980/990 SSDs were shipped with bad firmware that causes them to age and die prematurely. A firmware update was published, but it only prevents further premature aging and doesn't fix drives that have already died, from what I understand. (There are also rumours of some batches of 870 EVOs being flaky, but I don't think that was ever confirmed by the manufacturer.)
If your drive is one of the affected Samsung models, you may be out of luck, although your description of the failure doesn't match the most common manifestation of this issue, which has the drive dropping to read-only.
E. Liddell
I am replying here, as this was the last response that I got; not ignoring Felix, Nik, et al.
Well, so I went across town and dug out my SATA/SSD connector tools out of storage. It turns out that I have not just one, but two of them, and they are both USB 3.0, so I assume that they are pretty up-to-date, even though I haven't used them at all in a couple years. They have just been sitting tight in a sealed plastic bag.
Neither of these SSDs are recognized by my machine, using either connector. (Don't know what they are properly called, but there is a picture in that links that Felix sent:
https://www.newegg.com/rosewill-rcuc-16001/p/N82E16812119874 https://web.archive.org/web/20240907172904/https://www.newegg.com/rosewill-r...
Mine look pretty much the same, except my brands are, respectively, StarTech and Sabrent.
The internal SSDs are, respectively, a Samsung 2 tb, 970 EVO Plus, and the factory-installed 128 gb SSD, don't know a brand name, other than that it shipped installed with a Lenovo Ideapad 3.15 laptop, and was never used.
Only when this Samsung 2 tb SSD started misbehaving, then I tried out the factory-installed SSD, and that only seemed to make things worse, as now I cannot use either one, nor even get my machine to recognize them.
When the Samsung is installed as the internal drive in my system, it is locked, and I cannot get into my system at all; When the factory SSD is installed as the internal drive, I get the startup menu trying to get me to register my "new" machine, which is now of course at least 2 years old.
It may be that I can take these drives to somebody who knows better, and get them wiped clean, reformatted, breathe some new life into them. Otherwise, this 2 tb Samsung is a waste of money and time, as I just barely managed to back up all my data (and not as organized and neatly as I would like) before everything went to hell.
At present I have install my entire system on a 256 gb flash drive, complete with root, swap and home partitions, with no internal hard drive at all. I boot from grub, and superstitiously avoiding UEFI and everything from Mc$haft, the rotten Apple, or other similar places of origin.
Any ideas about how to proceed are welcome. I can look around for a new laptop, but I think that it will just be more of the same. I hesitate to put another SSD in my machine, as I fear that I will get caught in that same endless loop again.
Well, at least I didn't lose any data, and all my work is still intact. I am once again considering how feasible it would be to move into a cave up in the mountains, buying a solar panel setup, using stone tools, and living as a hermit.
Bill
Hi Bill,
It does sound like a faulty laptop motherboard, i.e. the sata connection.
When running from your usb install, what does 'dmesg' report after you have plugged in either of the problematic ssd drives?
If you get some new output from 'dmesg' you should be able to determine the drive letter/assignment and use 'fdisk' to re-partition.
It's unlikely that both ssd drives and both adapters are faulty so the laptop loooks like the culprit and a faulty internal sata connection may have messed with the drives format but accessing via usb should enable some sort of recovery. Having said that, we have no idea _exactly_ what has happened to cuase your issues.
Cheers, Mike.
On Saturday 07 September 2024 23:37:10 Mike Howard via tde-users wrote:
Hi Bill,
It does sound like a faulty laptop motherboard, i.e. the sata connection.
When running from your usb install, what does 'dmesg' report after you have plugged in either of the problematic ssd drives?
If you get some new output from 'dmesg' you should be able to determine the drive letter/assignment and use 'fdisk' to re-partition.
It's unlikely that both ssd drives and both adapters are faulty so the laptop loooks like the culprit and a faulty internal sata connection may have messed with the drives format but accessing via usb should enable some sort of recovery. Having said that, we have no idea _exactly_ what has happened to cuase your issues.
Cheers, Mike.
Hi Mike,
Is it possible to replace the SATA connection without replacing the whole motherboard?
As I mentioned in another response, first I will find another machine or way of testing these SSDs, and if it seems that they can be used, then I might think about buying replacement parts for the laptop.
It's only 2+ years old! I can afford to keep buying new machines every couple years. That's why I started building my own machines. But building desktops, and scrounging for old parts, or finding suppliers of low-cost replacement parts, used to be easy.
Doing the same thing with laptops is harder for me; mainly because they are small, and I have big clumsy hands, and also my near-vision eyesight is gradually getting worse. Bifocals are hard to use for close work; I would almost have to get special reading glasses.
Bill
On 08/09/2024 12:41, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Saturday 07 September 2024 23:37:10 Mike Howard via tde-users wrote:
Hi Bill,
It does sound like a faulty laptop motherboard, i.e. the sata connection.
<snip>
Hi Mike,
Is it possible to replace the SATA connection without replacing the whole motherboard?
Not for mere mortals like us.
As I mentioned in another response, first I will find another machine or way of testing these SSDs, and if it seems that they can be used, then I might think about buying replacement parts for the laptop.
If you have booted from usb than there shouldn't be a need for another machine. That is _if_ the adapters you are using can provide enough power for the ssd drives. If they can, just plug in and see what 'dmesg' reports. If they don't provide enough power, you'll need an external enclosure.
Cheers, Mike. --
On Sunday 08 September 2024 05:46:39 Mike Howard via tde-users wrote:
correction: I *can't* afford to keep buying new machines every couple years.
But you probably figured out what I meant. For some reason, when writing on a computer keyboard nowadays, I tend to drop the negative; don't know why. It is a sloppy habit that has only slipped into my emails and posts in the past ten years or so. And due to my eyesight getting worse for near vision, I don't catch the mistakes.
Is it possible to replace the SATA connection without replacing the whole motherboard?
Not for mere mortals like us.
Yeah, kinda figured that would be so, which is again why I can build my own desktops, but don't bother with laptops.
As I mentioned in another response, first I will find another machine or way of testing these SSDs, and if it seems that they can be used, then I might think about buying replacement parts for the laptop.
If you have booted from usb than there shouldn't be a need for another machine. That is _if_ the adapters you are using can provide enough power for the ssd drives. If they can, just plug in and see what 'dmesg' reports. If they don't provide enough power, you'll need an external enclosure.
I was wondering about power. On SATAs, inside a desktop, there are special power cords just for that, and I have a whole box of them ... in storage ... the other place, far, far away.
I have a big, powered USB hub, and it may be better to plug into that. I have been plugging the adapter straight into the laptop's 3.0 ports, but I was wondering about power.
At present my machine sees nothing, and the adapters' lights show that they are working. I don't have anything else here to test. (I mean, SATAs, etc.; as my desktop is in that storage place far, far away from here.)
If I can test these drives somehow, before buying an enclosure, that would be a good thing. I don't want to keep buying more stuff that I may never use.
Bill
Anno domini 2024 Sun, 8 Sep 10:53:42 -0700 William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Sunday 08 September 2024 05:46:39 Mike Howard via tde-users wrote:
correction: I *can't* afford to keep buying new machines every couple years.
But you probably figured out what I meant. For some reason, when writing on a computer keyboard nowadays, I tend to drop the negative; don't know why. It is a sloppy habit that has only slipped into my emails and posts in the past ten years or so. And due to my eyesight getting worse for near vision, I don't catch the mistakes.
Is it possible to replace the SATA connection without replacing the whole motherboard?
Not for mere mortals like us.
Yeah, kinda figured that would be so, which is again why I can build my own desktops, but don't bother with laptops.
It's not that bad, actually there' me guy having the same problem here (T570, so a bit older than yout ideapad): https://thinkpad-forum.de/threads/welches-l%C3%B6tzinn-um-ssd-connector-zu-l...
it helps to have a hotair station and not to use the trustworthy 100W irons :)
Nik
As I mentioned in another response, first I will find another machine or way of testing these SSDs, and if it seems that they can be used, then I might think about buying replacement parts for the laptop.
If you have booted from usb than there shouldn't be a need for another machine. That is _if_ the adapters you are using can provide enough power for the ssd drives. If they can, just plug in and see what 'dmesg' reports. If they don't provide enough power, you'll need an external enclosure.
I was wondering about power. On SATAs, inside a desktop, there are special power cords just for that, and I have a whole box of them ... in storage ... the other place, far, far away.
I have a big, powered USB hub, and it may be better to plug into that. I have been plugging the adapter straight into the laptop's 3.0 ports, but I was wondering about power.
At present my machine sees nothing, and the adapters' lights show that they are working. I don't have anything else here to test. (I mean, SATAs, etc.; as my desktop is in that storage place far, far away from here.)
If I can test these drives somehow, before buying an enclosure, that would be a good thing. I don't want to keep buying more stuff that I may never use.
Bill
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Anno domini 2024 Sat, 7 Sep 23:18:30 -0700 William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
[...] Well, at least I didn't lose any data, and all my work is still intact. I am once again considering how feasible it would be to move into a cave up in the mountains, buying a solar panel setup, using stone tools, and living as a hermit.
I can only suggest what I do here: have at least 3 identical drives, cept in sync, on 3 different computers, so when one dies I can just pull out the next one. I keep my old X61/T61/T470/T480 ... exactly for this reason - and has saved my arse a lot of times. And I have a "server" that runs FreeBSD + ZFS mirrors that I turn on to move data to cold storage (BD) and halfe-frozen mirrors.
I'm afraid there is not alot you can do on your drives, either the mainboard killed them, the mainboard is faulty, the drives re bad ... whatever, no use investing more time on tkem. That is, if you have verified your USB-SATA-adapters work with different drives on a different computer :)
Nik
Bill
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On Sunday 08 September 2024 08.18:30 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
At present I have install my entire system on a 256 gb flash drive,
Any ideas about how to proceed are welcome.
Just to make sure we have all informations:
- You can boot your laptop from a flash drive, so at leat that USB port is working - none of your SSDs are seem by your "flash" system if you connect them to other USB ports with your adapters
I suppose you don't have another computer available to test connecting the ssd's on it?
It seems to me the key is to get some machine to see you drive, then you can reformat them. If no machine can see the drives, then I am afraid they are dead. The main drawback of SSD compared to traditionnal SATA is that you usually "see" your SATA drive dying, but your SSD gives no warning.
Thierry
On Sunday 08 September 2024 02:11:44 Thierry de Coulon via tde-users wrote:
On Sunday 08 September 2024 08.18:30 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
At present I have install my entire system on a 256 gb flash drive,
Any ideas about how to proceed are welcome.
Just to make sure we have all informations:
- You can boot your laptop from a flash drive, so at leat that USB port is
working
- none of your SSDs are seem by your "flash" system if you connect them to
other USB ports with your adapters
I suppose you don't have another computer available to test connecting the ssd's on it?
It seems to me the key is to get some machine to see you drive, then you can reformat them. If no machine can see the drives, then I am afraid they are dead. The main drawback of SSD compared to traditionnal SATA is that you usually "see" your SATA drive dying, but your SSD gives no warning.
Thierry
Yes, that's more or less what I am thinking, to find a machine to use to test these drives. Moreover, I am not confident that the same thing won't happen again if I get a new SSD to replace these. If the fault is in the machine itself, the SATA connector, whatever, I would just ruin another drive. Besides which, these SSDs are not so fabulous as they promise.
My only problem is, my other machines that I might use for testing (desktop, old laptops, etc.) are in yet a different storage place -- far, far away from here rather than a walk across town.
So for the moment, I do at least have a working system, and everything looks and works exactly like before; which is to say, almost perfect, except of course for little things like a non-working SSD. And I still have all my work and other data on external drives, so it's not the end of the world.
I know a few friends of the GNU/Linux persuasion, so I hope to get their help, or to use one of their old machines for testing.
Bill
said William Morder via tde-users:
| Neither of these SSDs are recognized by my machine, using either | connector. (Don't know what they are properly called, but there is a | picture in that links that Felix sent:
My experience has been that SSDs ain't soup yet. I have a WD 500gb SA500 that worked for about two weeks before dying. This spring, I got a 1-tb NVMe M.2 SSDs for a Raspberry Pi 5 machine. The first one was in the process of a write when there was a power glitch so slight that it didn't even make the clocks blink. But it killed the drive stone dead. Crucial replaced it, and I have UPSed the Raspberry to a farethewell. If you poke around you'll find that such stories are common.
In both cases the failure's symptom was that it simply disappeared.
Which is to say that in my experience the damned things are too delicate for use other than in a big raid, where they can be yanked and tossed when they fail.
They might be food for something, maybe fast buffering or something, but until they can be made more robust they're a lot less safe than mechanical hard drives, imho.
On Monday 09 September 2024 21.19:12 dep via tde-users wrote:
My experience has been that SSDs ain't soup yet. (...) Which is to say that in my experience the damned things are too delicate for use other than in a big raid, where they can be yanked and tossed when they fail.
They might be food for something, maybe fast buffering or something, but until they can be made more robust they're a lot less safe than mechanical hard drives, imho.
While I would certainly not pretend this (horror) story is an exception, and possibly here in Switzerland we have a better power net, I've been running on SSDs and Nvme's on my main machines for a few years with no such experience (and many of these drives are second hand).
But one thing remains: with solid state disks you can have a "healthy" disc today and wake up tomorrow with a dead one, no dying symptom.
My solution for my main machine is that I purchased three identical nvmes (128GB, cheap because everyone wnats big drives now). One is in the machine, two are in USB enclosures. The drive contains /, home and a data partition with important files. "Backup" is made by cloning to one of the USB drives (takes less than 15 minutes).
Other, less valuable data are on a 1TB SSD.
So your mileage may vary, but I did not have such trouble with solid state data support.
Thierry
On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 at 19:19 (+0000), dep via tde-users wrote:
said William Morder via tde-users:
Neither of these SSDs are recognized by my machine, using either connector. (Don't know what they are properly called, but there is a picture in that links that Felix sent:
My experience has been that SSDs ain't soup yet. I have a WD 500gb SA500 that worked for about two weeks before dying. This spring, I got a 1-tb NVMe M.2 SSDs for a Raspberry Pi 5 machine. The first one was in the process of a write when there was a power glitch so slight that it didn't even make the clocks blink. But it killed the drive stone dead. Crucial replaced it, and I have UPSed the Raspberry to a farethewell. If you poke around you'll find that such stories are common.
<snip>
My experience (fortunately) has been different. I started replacing spinny disks with SSDs in my laptops about 7 or 8 years ago, and I've had some RPis using them 24/7/365 for a few (4 or 5?) years.
So far, I have had zero problems with them. Further, my local power company was just fined over $1M (the fourth year in a row they have been fined) because of their inability to meet delivery reliability targets, so it isn't like the quality of power I get is excellent.
I've had laptops with flash memory (i.e., not SATA interface SSDs) since 2017, and I haven't had any problem with them either.
On the flip side, I've had a number of spinny disks go bad. All but one gave me some warning. One died without notice, remarkably within 2 minutes of a backup finishing.
In summary, I'm sorry that some of you have been having problems, but the situation is not uniformly bleak.
Jim
-
dep -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
E. Liddell -
Felix Miata -
Jim -
Maciej Pilichowski -
Mike Howard -
Thierry de Coulon -
William Morder