said Hunter via tde-users: | I'd like to ask, does anyone *actually* use Konqueror to regularly | browse the internet? I have used no better file manager than Konqueror | but the web aspect seems to be hindered. I don't think its a fault of | Konqueror itself but the way web design has changed. You can test this | yourself by using wiby.me (an early web design search engine) and | looking at sites indexed on it. These usually display fine in Konqueror, | but when you go to a modern website like DuckDuckGo for example it | doesn't display properly at all. It's a bummer since Konqueror is one of | the hallmarks of TDE for me, although I don't know much about the web | browser (KHTML) aspect I believe its integrated into some Trinity | applications which is a really nice feature. I first really thought of | this when I used KlamAV's virus browser function (which I assume is | using KHTML integrated) but Trend Micro website (being that it's likely | changed a lot) doesn't display properly. | | For the time being I'm using SeaMonkey since my usual browser, Pale | Moon, does not take too kindly to *BSD.. And since it's a suite with a | mail client as well I'm not using Kmail. I might switch to Firefox, but | if there is any way to use Konqueror I would love to. There's so many | options that far outweigh most dedicated web browsers such as its | adblock filters and the ability to disable JavaScript which gets rid of | any need for an add-on like uBlock Origin. I completely understand that | working on it to display modern web pages is probably too difficult | since Trinity's KHTML/Konqueror is older, this is just me dreaming here. | Ideally I'd like to be able to make full use of a TDE web browser and | the applications that work with it =) In my estimation Konqueror is not only the worst web browser ever made but the worst from its very inception and the worst imaginable. It's a good file browser, though for anything critical I prefer mc in a terminal or Krusader, which is an X mc. And I very much hope that no one ever tries to make Konqueror a browser anymore -- the idea of it as a web browser was abaodoned by KDE about five years ago, to the regret of no one because it really sucked in that function. https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?t=132499 There are a lot of good web browsers. (And too many KDE file managers!) -- dep Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://www.athensnews.com/opinion/columns/the_view_from_mudsock_heights/

I agree that Konqueror is the best file manager. As a web browser, it's a rowboat in a world of jet aircraft. On 6/29/21, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp <office(a)klepp.biz> wrote: > Anno domini 2021 Tue, 29 Jun 13:34:27 -0500 > Hunter via tde-users scripsit: >> Good morning everybody =) >> >> I'd like to ask, does anyone *actually* use Konqueror to regularly >> browse the internet? I have used no better file manager than Konqueror >> but the web aspect seems to be hindered. I don't think its a fault of >> Konqueror itself but the way web design has changed. You can test this >> yourself by using wiby.me (an early web design search engine) and >> looking at sites indexed on it. These usually display fine in Konqueror, >> but when you go to a modern website like DuckDuckGo for example it >> doesn't display properly at all. It's a bummer since Konqueror is one of >> the hallmarks of TDE for me, although I don't know much about the web >> browser (KHTML) aspect I believe its integrated into some Trinity >> applications which is a really nice feature. I first really thought of >> this when I used KlamAV's virus browser function (which I assume is >> using KHTML integrated) but Trend Micro website (being that it's likely >> changed a lot) doesn't display properly. >> >> For the time being I'm using SeaMonkey since my usual browser, Pale >> Moon, does not take too kindly to *BSD.. And since it's a suite with a >> mail client as well I'm not using Kmail. I might switch to Firefox, but >> if there is any way to use Konqueror I would love to. There's so many >> options that far outweigh most dedicated web browsers such as its >> adblock filters and the ability to disable JavaScript which gets rid of >> any need for an add-on like uBlock Origin. I completely understand that >> working on it to display modern web pages is probably too difficult >> since Trinity's KHTML/Konqueror is older, this is just me dreaming here. >> Ideally I'd like to be able to make full use of a TDE web browser and >> the applications that work with it =) > > Just my ¢; I loved konqueror to browse the net ... but that was a different > net, not to say totally alien. Remember goopher? There was a time when you > could choose the rendering engine in konqueror. This option is long gone, a > propper integration of e.g. firefox rendering engine would end at > firefox-with-different-decos, so no win. How many different rendering > engines are under active development now? 4? Less then 10 I bet. CSS of > KHTML never implemented the full standard, now it's totally outdated. I > don't see a way to get it on track again - and I doubt it would be of any > use. KHTML is good for browsing the man:// and info:// pages - there's no > better way to do it. > > Nik > > >> >> - Hunter aka hunter0one >> ____________________________________________________ >> tde-users mailing list -- users(a)trinitydesktop.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org >> Web mail archive available at >> https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt… >> > > > > -- > Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing > with the NSA, CIA ... > ____________________________________________________ > tde-users mailing list -- users(a)trinitydesktop.org > To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org > Web mail archive available at > https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt… >

I don't think the major problem is CSS; the major problem must be JavaScript and the different APIs which are constantly increasing in number (WebAudio, WebSockets, there was even an API for accessing USB devices if I remember correctly) and all this is just adding to the bloat of the "modern" Web. Does one /really/ need all of these APIs? What's the next step? An API for brewing coffee? In this frustrating course that the Web has taken it does not surprise me how many people are "going back to the roots" and re-discovering Gopher just for fun... There is even this new protocol, Gemini, which was created because the Web is the mess it is. I think it is highly improbable that KHTML will thrive in its current form. Speaking historically, WebKit was based on KHTML, so why not port WebKit instead? There is no way that such a small team be able to compete with giants like Google and... ehh... Google. I don't know about Mozilla. They give away an impression of stagnation. Nothing seems to truly change except for the constant UI reorganizations and option removal. They even threw away their "native" extensions API for the disfunctional WebExtensions solution. -- Mavridis Philippe

On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 13:34:27 -0500 Hunter via tde-users <users(a)trinitydesktop.org> wrote: Don't. It's a good file manager, but it doesn't implement the most recent Web standards. It remains mostly usable for static pages or those generated using server-side systems like PHP or CGI, but strictly server-side pages are rare these days. Konqueror's Javascript engine is antiquated to the point of uselessness, and most "modern" pages rely on Javascript. [Insert 20-page foaming rant about incompetent designers here. Man, I feel old.] The idea of replacing Konqueror's existing HTML rendering engine with WebKit was floated at one point, but TDE has never had enough manpower to attempt it. Use *anything* else for general browsing. E. Liddell

On 2021-06-29 14:28:07 Mavridis Philippe wrote: Mozilla perpetually touts their browser as "for the user", but they have moved most of its configuration settings into the opaque about:config interface, which uses closed documentation and obscure naming to discourage users from using it. The more accessible controls are so coarse-grained it's hard to tell just what they do. Firefox seems to be much too voluble about users' activities, reporting excessive amounts of information back to Mozilla and other entities for my taste. (Much of that can be turned off if one can figure out which about:config entries do what.) I'm starting to see more and more websites rejecting alternatives to Firefox and its popular siblings; quite a few sites won't let me connect with Waterfox. Leslie -- Operating System: Linux Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.3 x86_64 Desktop Environment: Trinity Qt: 3.5.0 TDE: R14.0.10 tde-config: 1.0

On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 07:01:33PM +0000, dep via tde-users wrote: In the early 2000s, before the KDE 3 -> KDE 4 redesign that lead to the creation of TDE, I used to regularly use Konquorer on the web. At the time, it was very possibly the best or second web browser available, up there with Opera. It was so good that Apple used Konquorer's web engine as the basis of Safari. (To be precise, it was technically KHTML and KJS that were forked to become Webkit, the core of Safari.) A bit of browser history for the kiddies who may not have been alive back then, and the grown-ups who may have forgotten :-) In the late 1990s, most of the web was designed for Internet Explorer only, which had over 90% marketshare. Most web developers thought that IE *was* the internet. If you found one that acknowledged the existence of Netscape Navigator, you were doing well. If you found one who tested their web pages on Navigator, you celebrated. On the Mac, you had IE for Mac. Until Safari came out, Apple's web browser was a version of IE for Mac. Chimera, which later rebranded as Camino, didn't come out until 2002, and Safari in 2003. On Linux, there were a couple of text-only browsers, lynx and links, Netscape Navigator (which was them forked to Mozilla), Opera, and Konquorer (which came out in 2000). Konq, and Opera, were by far the better of the options. But Opera was closed source and couldn't be distributed with Linux, and Konq only worked with KDE. Midori didn't come out until 2007. So if you wanted a desktop-independent open source graphical web browser in 2000 on Linux, your only choice was Mozilla, even though it was big, bloated and slow. Mozilla later became the name of the foundation overseeing the former Netscape software products, and the browser renamed as Seamonkey. The web browser parts of Mozilla/Seamonkey were forked into Phoenix, which was then renamed to Firebird, then Firefox. Firefox changed the world of the web, breaking IE's near monopoly, but that was still many years in the future. There was no Chrome or Chromium. Opera was closed-source, there was no Vivaldi yet. There was no Brave, and in the glory days of 2000, "privacy on the internet" meant "don't tell people your home address". In those early days, Javascript was still optional, most web pages were static HTML, and Konquorer was an unknown treasure, unknown outside of the KDE community, and Apple, which took notice of it and forked it for Safari. Somebody ought to tell KDE then, because Konquorer's last update was one day ago: https://invent.kde.org/network/konqueror https://apps.kde.org/konqueror/ -- Steve

said Steven D'Aprano via tde-users: | It was so good that Apple used Konquorer's web engine as the basis of | Safari. Which is so good that everyone using Mac or IOS first thing gets another browser and commences bitching that it can't be made the default. | In the late 1990s, most of the web was designed for Internet Explorer | only, which had over 90% marketshare. Most web developers thought that | IE *was* the internet. If you found one that acknowledged the existence | of Netscape Navigator, you were doing well. If you found one who tested | their web pages on Navigator, you celebrated. Actually, msft got totally blindsided by the advent of the Internet, which is why there wasn't even a tcp/ip stack with stock Win 95 -- which is why the "Windows 95 Plus! Pack" thing got rushed to market. The market share of which you speak had to do with Microsoft including a basically unremovable IE in every copy of Windows, along with forcing computer makers to pay for a copy of Windows for every computer they sold, whether it had Windows on it or not. At the end of 1995, IE's market share was >3 percent; it was ~40 percent at the end of 1997 -- Netscape still had more than half of the browser market at that time. There was a vast amount of litigation in connection with it. Netscape at the time charged for the Navigator browser and the Communicator suite. | On Linux, there were a couple of text-only browsers, lynx and links, | Netscape Navigator (which was them forked to Mozilla), Opera, and | Konquorer (which came out in 2000). Konq, and Opera, were by far the | better of the options. But Opera was closed source and couldn't be | distributed with Linux, and Konq only worked with KDE. Midori didn't | come out until 2007. So if you wanted a desktop-independent open source | graphical web browser in 2000 on Linux, your only choice was Mozilla, | even though it was big, bloated and slow. No. First, from the beginning of KDE there was what amounted to Konqueror, KFM, which was a file manager as well as a browser (and really good ftp client). I've attached a screenshot I made in July 1999 of it displaying the KDE home page. The arrival of Konqueror with KDE2 marked functionally a port of KFM with a new name. Even so, we had other browsers. Netscape was packaged with most distributions, as was Star Office, which was a lot different from the OpenOffice and LibreOffice it would be decades later. Actually, the Star Office browser in SO-3.x, was pretty nice, though Star Office was an extremely strange desktop paradigm. The real issue for interoperability was that no one had good .doc filters, so the best most of us could so was save documents as .rtf -- that was a more important aspect of Linux's not being taken up at the time than the browser war was. | Mozilla later became the name of the foundation overseeing the former | Netscape software products, and the browser renamed as Seamonkey. The | web browser parts of Mozilla/Seamonkey were forked into Phoenix, which | was then renamed to Firebird, then Firefox. Interestingly, Mozilla was the name netscape had reported itself as being, in browser identification, history, and such, pretty much from the beginning. And heaven help you if you were a Netscape user who had checked the KDE configuration box that applied KDE styles and colors to non-KDE applications. | Somebody ought to tell KDE then, because Konquorer's last update was one | day ago: | | https://invent.kde.org/network/konqueror | | https://apps.kde.org/konqueror/ I have no doubt that it's being picked at here and there, just as is the KDE office suite that got announced the day KDE 1.0 was released but that has never been ready for prime time, even though there are people still fiddling with it. https://kde.org/announcements/1-2-3/1.0/ As with KFM, its name has gotten changed. I've never heard of anybody using it for anything much, though, because there's other free stuff that's a world better, something it has in common with KFM, Konqueror, and so on. -- dep Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://www.athensnews.com/opinion/columns/the_view_from_mudsock_heights/

J Leslie Turriff composed on 2021-06-29 17:31 (UTC-0500): I don't think "selling" was the usurpation method. IMO, big money interests found hungry developers they could salary to assimilate into the management sections of development communities to convert the former "user agents" aka web browsers into advertisers' agents and data collectors that are in a near perpetual state of bloat growth. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata

On 2021-06-29 18:46:04 Slávek Banko via tde-users wrote: This is slightly off-topic, but can you tell me what, if any, functionality the Konqueror configuration for Plugins provides? Particularly, where does one acquire Netscape plugins these days? Leslie -- Operating System: Linux Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.3 x86_64 Desktop Environment: Trinity Qt: 3.5.0 TDE: R14.0.10 tde-config: 1.0