Ok full stop to all of this. Just stop. This is a forum for development of free open source software and not a plateform for political debate. Nor is my emotional sentiment.
This comes to a full stop now.
Kate
On Monday 16 November 2015 23:27:20 Kate Draven wrote:
This comes to a full stop now.
a) You started this. b) Whilst I entirely agree that this has gone in my opinion too far, I really feel that you cannot issue orders in this way.
Lis
On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 12:23:18AM +0000, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Monday 16 November 2015 23:27:20 Kate Draven wrote:
This comes to a full stop now.
a) You started this. b) Whilst I entirely agree that this has gone in my opinion too far, I really feel that you cannot issue orders in this way.
Especially when, according to the timestamps on the emails, 40 seconds later you (Kate) replied to another political email to agree. It certainly comes across as hypocritical and bossy.
I think that only one person on this mailing list can issue orders about what is and what is not allowed, and that is the list owner, Tim.
The rest of us can just say... please, enough is enough. This is not a general discussion forum for political matters. Please stop. (That's a request, not a demand.)
As for Michael, who wrote in another email to complain about people contacting him off-list, I think Michael's demand that people keep off-topic discussions about politics on this mailing list is *completely* wrong and harmful.
Two or three messages in the heat of the moment may be understandable and forgivable, but there comes a time where we as a community should bite our lips (or sit on our typing hands) and stop. There are plenty of other forums to debate and argue the political situation (Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, etc.), please take it there.
If Michael wishes to *request* that people don't contact him off-list, that is one thing. (Of course, people are free to ignore his wishes, just as he is free to delete their emails.) But to insist that people take *private* and *off-topic* messages public, well, I consider that far more rude and harmful to this community than the things that Michael was complaining about. After all, he is free to just ignore any aggressive or disagreeable private messages, but (unless he is the list owner) I think that he is out of line in encouraging others to pollute this list with off-topic messages. Especially disruptive and angry messages about politics.
If anyone (other than Tim) wishes to disagree (or even agree) with me, please take your off-topic and/or political messages to private mail. I promise to read them. I don't promise to reply (that depends on how polite you are).
Let's please keep it civil and on-topic (well, mostly on-topic) here.
Thank you,
Steve
As for Michael, who wrote in another email to complain about people contacting him off-list, I think Michael's demand that people keep off-topic discussions about politics on this mailing list is *completely* wrong and harmful.
Where did I demand that people keep off topic discussions on list? I didn't. People have options and I discussed those options. I don't want people, such as yourself, emailing me privately. My email is available for all to see but it doesn't mean anyone has the right to use it to have a go at me.
Now you have merged 2 different "off-topic" discussions into one. What is *completely* wrong and harmful is people misquoting (at best) or telling lies (at worst) with regards to what other people are saying. Twisting reality isn't a good thing.
On 17 November 2015 at 13:41, Steven D'Aprano steve@pearwood.info wrote:
On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 12:23:18AM +0000, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Monday 16 November 2015 23:27:20 Kate Draven wrote:
This comes to a full stop now.
a) You started this. b) Whilst I entirely agree that this has gone in my opinion too far, I
really
feel that you cannot issue orders in this way.
Especially when, according to the timestamps on the emails, 40 seconds later you (Kate) replied to another political email to agree. It certainly comes across as hypocritical and bossy.
I think that only one person on this mailing list can issue orders about what is and what is not allowed, and that is the list owner, Tim.
The rest of us can just say... please, enough is enough. This is not a general discussion forum for political matters. Please stop. (That's a request, not a demand.)
As for Michael, who wrote in another email to complain about people contacting him off-list, I think Michael's demand that people keep off-topic discussions about politics on this mailing list is *completely* wrong and harmful.
Two or three messages in the heat of the moment may be understandable and forgivable, but there comes a time where we as a community should bite our lips (or sit on our typing hands) and stop. There are plenty of other forums to debate and argue the political situation (Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, etc.), please take it there.
If Michael wishes to *request* that people don't contact him off-list, that is one thing. (Of course, people are free to ignore his wishes, just as he is free to delete their emails.) But to insist that people take *private* and *off-topic* messages public, well, I consider that far more rude and harmful to this community than the things that Michael was complaining about. After all, he is free to just ignore any aggressive or disagreeable private messages, but (unless he is the list owner) I think that he is out of line in encouraging others to pollute this list with off-topic messages. Especially disruptive and angry messages about politics.
If anyone (other than Tim) wishes to disagree (or even agree) with me, please take your off-topic and/or political messages to private mail. I promise to read them. I don't promise to reply (that depends on how polite you are).
Let's please keep it civil and on-topic (well, mostly on-topic) here.
Thank you,
Steve
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On Tuesday 17 November 2015 02:41:29 Steven D'Aprano wrote:
As for Michael, who wrote in another email to complain about people contacting him off-list, I think Michael's demand that people keep off-topic discussions about politics on this mailing list is *completely* wrong and harmful.
Two or three messages in the heat of the moment may be understandable and forgivable, but there comes a time where we as a community should bite our lips (or sit on our typing hands) and stop. There are plenty of other forums to debate and argue the political situation (Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, etc.), please take it there.
If Michael wishes to *request* that people don't contact him off-list, that is one thing. (Of course, people are free to ignore his wishes, just as he is free to delete their emails.) But to insist that people take *private* and *off-topic* messages public, well, I consider that far more rude and harmful to this community than the things that Michael was complaining about. After all, he is free to just ignore any aggressive or disagreeable private messages, but (unless he is the list owner) I think that he is out of line in encouraging others to pollute this list with off-topic messages. Especially disruptive and angry messages about politics.
Michael has had a good go at me before when I have eventually taken his more vituperative attacks on me off line.
Look what I have just received; persecution or what!!!! And why?? I have blacklisted him, but I haven't told him that: ---------- Forwarded Message ----------
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I know that I requested that we all cease the off-topic arguing, complaints and attacks, but somebody has complained about something I said and so for the sake of peace I'd like to make a correction.
On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 01:41:29PM +1100, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
As for Michael, who wrote in another email to complain about people contacting him off-list, I think Michael's demand that people keep off-topic discussions about politics on this mailing list is *completely* wrong and harmful.
There is some disagreement as to whether Michael's words were actually a demand or not, and in fairness to Michael he did also offer a third option besides posting off-topic arguments on-list or to private mail (namely, not to post at all). So in the interests of fairness and getting back to the topic of this mailing list, I'll withdraw the word "demand".
I still stand by the gist of my argument: continuing the off-topic arguments on-list is not a wise thing to do.
-
Kate Draven -
Lisi Reisz -
Michael . -
Steven D'Aprano