Hi All,
Based upon many valuable comments and shared thoughts from this list, I’m find myself in the anti systemd group.
With this pretty much being the best, non-biased, comparison of Debian (or any systemd OS) and Devuan (e.g. a non systemd OS) that I found to solidify my opinions on systemd:
https://blog.ungleich.ch/en-us/cms/blog/2017/12/10/the-importance-of-devuan/
Do Note: The author does use an [overly] dramatic introduction, so please do read all 878 words of his article. I believe you’ll find the considerations his conclusion brings up well worth the 5-10 minutes of your time it takes to get there.
And then Bill commented in another thread:
On Sunday 05 August 2018 11:48:18 am William Morder wrote:
I've never been able to do a successful installation directly from a Devuan disc, but must install Debian, then Devuan, then TDE, then uninstall LibreOffice and install OpenOffice, etc. And cannot do net install here, so I need to use a live disc. If my circumstances were different, then I would probably take a different approach.
Which lead me to this:
Linked From: https://devuan.org/os/partners/devuan-distros
Exe GNU/Linux Devuan-based Live Linux Images with Trinity Desktop Environment (TDE) https://sourceforge.net/projects/exegnulinux/
Exe GNU/Linux live images are based on Devuan and use Trinity Desktop Environment (TDE). Versions for i386 and amd64 are available. see [1] also
Bill might this solve your issue(s)?
Now finally my question(s)... :)
- Is anyone using Devuan 2.0.0 (ASCII) w/ TDE installed? - - If so any issues?
Ah, never mind the next Q: “Devuan package repositories are exclusive. Other repositories, including Debian’s, should NOT be used directly.”
- Can external (deb?/ppa?) packages be added to Devuan similar to Ubuntu? - - Would you use the corresponding Debian release?
Example:
# cat /etc/apt/sources.list.d/opera-stable.list # This file makes sure that Opera Browser is kept up-to-date # as part of regular system upgrades
deb https://deb.opera.com/opera-stable/ stable non-free #Opera Browser
(final releases)
- So the only choice for Opera, LibreOffice, etc., is to manually install from a downloaded .deb?
Okay, last question... From the standpoint of wanting the leanest system possible with only software I’ve specifically installed:
- Would it make the most sense to install the Exe GNU/Linux above, then upgrade in place to Devuan 2 and then TDE R14.0.5?
- Or is there a way to install just a bare bones, console only Devuan?
I do the second with dedicated servers under CentOS 6 all the time, but it’s the hosting firm that’s doing the initial system build to ‘base’ (and of course each likes to call it a different name, ‘base,’ ‘bare,’ ‘init’), which has much less overhead than the published RH/CentOS ‘minimal’ install profile. So, I’m guessing it can be done, but the Devuan website doesn’t have much beyond how to do a ‘full’ install.
If the second method is the way to go, does anyone have a favorite write up on how it’s done with Debian I can use to guide me through doing the same with Devuan?
Best and Thanks! Michel
[1] Referential Note: https://sourceforge.net/p/exegnulinux/discussion/general/thread/fdff84f2/?li...
Mike Hunt - 2018-05-05
Hello,
I have been running this distro for a while now, but after some months became puzzled over why I didn't receive any single update. I found out that Devuan's Update and Security repos were not added anywhere; after adding them the updates tickled in. Is this an oversight?
On Sunday 05 August 2018 11:48:18 am William Morder wrote:
I've never been able to do a successful installation directly from a Devuan disc,...
Never been able either!
I don't understand how works their installer (live cd), I've never been able to use it the way I wanted Devuan to be installed (with two disks).
I could install Devuan with their traditional install cd (with the Debian installer if I'm not mistaken) but none of my network cards where working, both needed an extra firmware. One of the card had a ralink chipset so I picked the firmware with ralink in the title, well wrong choice! I should have taken an other (don't remenber the name) instead with a bunch of packaged non-free firmwares. My cards were working but no network, Devuan uses wicd, I also had to install manually several wicd packages with for some of them, their dependencies. I can't remener how many time I had moved the thumb drive from the laptop to the station and had to Google between them.
If I recall correctly, their live cds bundle the non-free firmwares but when it comes to fill in the 'sources.list' file with their repos, that doesn't work because between the moment they wrote their installer and now, the adresses of the repos have changed. I had to adjust that file manually with the new repos, repos that are differents with Devuan jessie and Devuan ascii (I had installed jessie).
For someone who's not used to Debian, installing Devuan on the station was quite an exercice, that, I'm not in the mood to do it again...if ever!
Cheers.
Michael wrote:
Based upon many valuable comments and shared thoughts from this list, I’m find myself in the anti systemd group.
I was going there too, but found out that I can install sysv package and use init as init process. Since then all my issues are gone. systemd is in the back, but I guess not used at all. I only once had to reboot after upgrade, because when systemd upgraded it somehow respawned itself as init process, but good that I did it on a test system, so that I knew what is to expect on the real one.
regards
On Mon, 06 Aug 2018 09:28:54 +0200 deloptes deloptes@gmail.com wrote:
I was going there too, but found out that I can install sysv package and use init as init process. Since then all my issues are gone. systemd is in the back, but I guess not used at all. I only once had to reboot after upgrade, because when systemd upgraded it somehow respawned itself as init process, but good that I did it on a test system, so that I knew what is to expect on the real one.
To prevent systemd respawn on upgrades, create a file in /etc/apt/preferences.d/ with following content Package: systemd-sysv Pin: release o=Debian Pin-Priority: -1
Nick Koretsky wrote:
To prevent systemd respawn on upgrades, create a file in /etc/apt/preferences.d/ with following content Package: systemd-sysv Pin: release o=Debian Pin-Priority: -1
Thanks - I have already forgotten that I have already done so :). As I checked exactly the same file was exactly there :) Not sure if I got it from you or someone else, but looks like this is the solution. I must admit with sysv init, everything works like a charm. I just can't confirm this for a laptop anymore as I had to stop using one with linux, but server and workstations are doing great.
regards
Hello Michael,
welcome to the club! ;-)
Am Montag 06 August 2018 schrieb Michael:
Hi All,
[...]
- Is anyone using Devuan 2.0.0 (ASCII) w/ TDE installed?
- If so any issues?
I'm using Devuan ascii with TDE R14.0.5 and it's generally running fine. No major issues I'm aware of.
Ah, never mind the next Q: “Devuan package repositories are exclusive. Other repositories, including Debian’s, should NOT be used directly.”
Meaning: not using Debian's own repositories (they are mirrored/merged into Devuan). With any other third party repository with debian packages matching the according Devuan (Debian) version it's the same like with Debian.
- Can external (deb?/ppa?) packages be added to Devuan similar to Ubuntu?
- Would you use the corresponding Debian release?
You can. Just like with Debian. And yes, Devuan ascii corresponds to Debian stretch. Devuan is basically Debian without systemd and a few packages stripped of their respective dependencies. You may have issues with new software which depends on systemd or related stuff, but not with TDE, at least not because of lacking systemd.
Example:
# cat /etc/apt/sources.list.d/opera-stable.list # This file makes sure that Opera Browser is kept up-to-date # as part of regular system upgrades
deb https://deb.opera.com/opera-stable/ stable non-free #Opera Browser
I haven't used Opera since more than ten years ago so I can't tell, but you can try.
- So the only choice for Opera, LibreOffice, etc., is to manually install
from a downloaded .deb?
When it's not in the official repository, yes. With Opera you would use Opera's repository, I guess. LibreOffice you can install from the official repositories, so no need for an extra repository, unless you want to use a version which is not in the official repositories.
Okay, last question... From the standpoint of wanting the leanest system possible with only software I’ve specifically installed:
I'd recommend netinstall iso.
- Would it make the most sense to install the Exe GNU/Linux above, then
upgrade in place to Devuan 2 and then TDE R14.0.5?
I think it's easier to install Devuan ascii and then TDE on top of it. That's what I did and it was a smooth install.
- Or is there a way to install just a bare bones, console only Devuan?
See above.
If the second method is the way to go, does anyone have a favorite write up on how it’s done with Debian I can use to guide me through doing the same with Devuan?
I'm not familiar with all subtleties of different versions and differences between Debian/Devuan, but I think it is almost the same.
HTH.
Kind regards, Stefan
Stefan Krusche wrote:
- Would it make the most sense to install the Exe GNU/Linux above, then
upgrade in place to Devuan 2 and then TDE R14.0.5?
I think it's easier to install Devuan ascii and then TDE on top of it. That's what I did and it was a smooth install.
+1 I install minimal system from net install usb/cd/debootstrap and then install TDE on top, which pulls whatever it needs. Just take absolute minimum from the netinstall - especially desktop or server related is what you do not need! You can add stuff always afterwards. Once you get all the minimum that fits your requirements setup and running - just dump the packages list so you do not need to reselect/readd later when you need to install fresh.
regards
On Monday 06 August 2018 08:44:24 am deloptes wrote:
Stefan Krusche wrote:
- Would it make the most sense to install the Exe GNU/Linux above, then
upgrade in place to Devuan 2 and then TDE R14.0.5?
I think it's easier to install Devuan ascii and then TDE on top of it. That's what I did and it was a smooth install.
+1 I install minimal system from net install usb/cd/debootstrap and then install TDE on top, which pulls whatever it needs. Just take absolute minimum from the netinstall - especially desktop or server related is what you do not need! You can add stuff always afterwards. Once you get all the minimum that fits your requirements setup and running
- just dump the packages list so you do not need to reselect/readd later
when you need to install fresh.
regards
+1
First Devuan install, netinstall in a Vbox. Not neccessarily equal to an install on hardware for testing hardware compatability. No hickups, TDE installs/works perfectly with Devuan.
I use the same methods as I use for Debian. Minimum = base + standard, do not select the task "desktop", it installs "desktop-base" TDE has its own "desktop-base-trinity".
Have the Trinity sources list available, mine is on my network, I use rsync to copy the file. A usb key would be easier to use.
Cat the two files together, then edit the sources.list, if you need to use "contrib" & "non-free", non-free wireless driver for laptop comes to mind. or copy paste the Trinity repos,
A BIG plus for Devuan, during the install I had an option to add "console functionality" (approx), I added it not knowing exactly what it was, one feature, it added "gpm" so copy paste will work from the terminal. Also, afaikt, "rsync" is installed in Devuan but not Stretch. I use both in my install.
One use case that is not covered, installing without having the Trinity sources.list available. Another + for Devuan, it installs "links2", simple cli web browser, use it to fetch the repos from Trinity web site.
I just realized this is definately not for the inexperienced. Just don't use Ubuntu to run TDE :-). Use Debian,Devuan and the lightest graphical install. lxde & xfce are in "tasksel",
greg
On Monday 06 August 2018 11:08:39 am Greg Madden wrote:
On Monday 06 August 2018 08:44:24 am deloptes wrote:
Stefan Krusche wrote:
- Would it make the most sense to install the Exe GNU/Linux above,
then upgrade in place to Devuan 2 and then TDE R14.0.5?
I think it's easier to install Devuan ascii and then TDE on top of it. That's what I did and it was a smooth install.
+1 I install minimal system from net install usb/cd/debootstrap and then install TDE on top, which pulls whatever it needs. Just take absolute minimum from the netinstall - especially desktop or server related is what you do not need! You can add stuff always afterwards. Once you get all the minimum that fits your requirements setup and running - just dump the packages list so you do not need to reselect/readd later when you need to install fresh.
regards
+1
First Devuan install, netinstall in a Vbox. Not neccessarily equal to an install on hardware for testing hardware compatability. No hickups, TDE installs/works perfectly with Devuan.
I use the same methods as I use for Debian. Minimum = base + standard, do not select the task "desktop", it installs "desktop-base" TDE has its own "desktop-base-trinity".
Have the Trinity sources list available, mine is on my network, I use rsync to copy the file. A usb key would be easier to use.
Cat the two files together, then edit the sources.list, if you need to use "contrib" & "non-free", non-free wireless driver for laptop comes to mind. or copy paste the Trinity repos,
A BIG plus for Devuan, during the install I had an option to add "console functionality" (approx), I added it not knowing exactly what it was, one feature, it added "gpm" so copy paste will work from the terminal. Also, afaikt, "rsync" is installed in Devuan but not Stretch. I use both in my install.
One use case that is not covered, installing without having the Trinity sources.list available. Another + for Devuan, it installs "links2", simple cli web browser, use it to fetch the repos from Trinity web site.
I just realized this is definately not for the inexperienced. Just don't use Ubuntu to run TDE :-). Use Debian,Devuan and the lightest graphical install. lxde & xfce are in "tasksel",
greg
Correction, it is "console functionality", it is one of the tasks in "task select"
greg
On 08/05/2018 06:57 PM, Michael wrote:
Hi All,
Based upon many valuable comments and shared thoughts from this list, I’m find myself in the anti systemd group.
With this pretty much being the best, non-biased, comparison of Debian (or any systemd OS) and Devuan (e.g. a non systemd OS) that I found to solidify my opinions on systemd:
https://blog.ungleich.ch/en-us/cms/blog/2017/12/10/the-importance-of-devuan/
Do Note: The author does use an [overly] dramatic introduction, so please do read all 878 words of his article. I believe you’ll find the considerations his conclusion brings up well worth the 5-10 minutes of your time it takes to get there.
Welcome Michael! Yes indeed upstream linux is a fright, could cause some to switch to Slackware. ;) Yes, the promise of faster startup & shutdown and we get "wait 1:30 for process to complete".
Things Devuan could use some help with are, having its own kernel, its own certs, maybe even a host file, etc. Never enough security.
And then Bill commented in another thread:
On Sunday 05 August 2018 11:48:18 am William Morder wrote:
I've never been able to do a successful installation directly from a Devuan disc, but must install Debian, then Devuan, then TDE, then uninstall LibreOffice and install OpenOffice, etc. And cannot do net install here, so I need to use a live disc. If my circumstances were different, then I would probably take a different approach.
Which lead me to this:
Linked From: https://devuan.org/os/partners/devuan-distros
Exe GNU/Linux Devuan-based Live Linux Images with Trinity Desktop Environment (TDE) https://sourceforge.net/projects/exegnulinux/
Exe GNU/Linux live images are based on Devuan and use Trinity Desktop Environment (TDE). Versions for i386 and amd64 are available. see [1] also
Bill might this solve your issue(s)?
I install using the ASCII net-install iso and it's just the core install with No added packages. Reboot, update, add TDE repos, update, install TDE key, install TDE and any other packages I want. Now I can ctrl+d to user and $ startx.
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb/ stretch main-r14 deps-r14 deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged/ ascii main contrib non-free deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged/ ascii-security main contrib non-free deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged/ ascii-updates main contrib non-free
Now finally my question(s)... :)
- Is anyone using Devuan 2.0.0 (ASCII) w/ TDE installed?
- If so any issues?
For me and other HDMI audio/video users there have been bugs, but recent updates seem to have solved those bugs. These HDMI bugs effect all linux of the same version from what I see, Slackware 14.2, Debian Stretch or Devuan ASCII. But things are much better now. Things are getting better all the time.. I use Devuan Jessie or Slackware 14.0 it's the most stable for my audio/video. But you will find TDE on ASCII very nice, I'm using it now fully updated watching a movie on my multimedia computer on the big screen smart tv and it's working swell and typing this post on this computer with no problems. :)
Ah, never mind the next Q: “Devuan package repositories are exclusive. Other repositories, including Debian’s, should NOT be used directly.”
- Can external (deb?/ppa?) packages be added to Devuan similar to Ubuntu?
- Would you use the corresponding Debian release?
Example:
# cat /etc/apt/sources.list.d/opera-stable.list # This file makes sure that Opera Browser is kept up-to-date # as part of regular system upgrades
deb https://deb.opera.com/opera-stable/ stable non-free #Opera Browser
(final releases)
- So the only choice for Opera, LibreOffice, etc., is to manually install from
a downloaded .deb?
Do what you think you have to do. :) You can use 'gdebi' to install downloaded packages or use 'dpkg'.
Okay, last question... From the standpoint of wanting the leanest system possible with only software I’ve specifically installed:
- Would it make the most sense to install the Exe GNU/Linux above, then
upgrade in place to Devuan 2 and then TDE R14.0.5?
- Or is there a way to install just a bare bones, console only Devuan?
I covered this above, but Exe Linux is another way to go but not needed an defiantly not bare bones.
-
deloptes -
Greg Madden -
gregory guy -
Jimmy Johnson -
Michael -
Nick Koretsky -
Stefan Krusche