Hi all!
One of these GNOMEs just hit me with a club again: By unknown reason polkitd & udisksd do not start on system startup - and I don't find the reason why. I have to place in my rc.local:
/usr/libexec/polkitd & /usr/libexec/udisks2/udisksd &
Then at least mounting/unmounting works. NetworkManager does not work - it complains about insufficient permissions. Now his system was not used for ~ 5 months and it did not show these problems prior to the update.
Anybody has a clue where to start? Oh, and it's devuan chimera.
Nik
On Wednesday 27 October 2021 23:13:29 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Hi all!
One of these GNOMEs just hit me with a club again: By unknown reason polkitd & udisksd do not start on system startup - and I don't find the reason why. I have to place in my rc.local:
/usr/libexec/polkitd & /usr/libexec/udisks2/udisksd &
There was some problem I had with udisks and polkitd, and I seem to recall finding a workaround. I'm not sure it's the same problem, but if you want me to look for my workaround, I think I still have it.
Right now I don't have that problem, so it has been a year or two since I did any of this.
Then at least mounting/unmounting works. NetworkManager does not work - it complains about insufficient permissions. Now his system was not used for ~ 5 months and it did not show these problems prior to the update.
Anybody has a clue where to start? Oh, and it's devuan chimera.
Nik
tdenetworkmanager has not worked properly for me since, to be honest, the beginning of TDE. For a while, back when I was still running Debian/Devuan Jessie (I believe that's when I changed to Devuan), tdenetworkmanager would work okay about every third or fourth time that I reinstalled my system. Since upgrading to Devuan Beowulf, though, tdenetworkmanager has *never* worked properly. I get that same error as Nik reports.
Otherwise, I just gave up and started using wicd with wicd-gtk, and it has been dependable enough that I don't care whether this one TDE application works or not.
Bill
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
tdenetworkmanager has not worked properly for me since, to be honest, the beginning of TDE. For a while, back when I was still running Debian/Devuan Jessie (I believe that's when I changed to Devuan), tdenetworkmanager would work okay about every third or fourth time that I reinstalled my system. Since upgrading to Devuan Beowulf, though, tdenetworkmanager has *never* worked properly. I get that same error as Nik reports.
ahm I think because it relays on networkmanager, which relays on systemd
On the notebook systemd + all the other stuff works fine. On the server sysvinit + all the other stuff works fine - but here no networkmanager or whatever is needed
On Tuesday 02 November 2021 01:10:23 deloptes wrote:
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
tdenetworkmanager has not worked properly for me since, to be honest, the beginning of TDE. For a while, back when I was still running Debian/Devuan Jessie (I believe that's when I changed to Devuan), tdenetworkmanager would work okay about every third or fourth time that I reinstalled my system. Since upgrading to Devuan Beowulf, though, tdenetworkmanager has *never* worked properly. I get that same error as Nik reports.
ahm I think because it relays on networkmanager, which relays on systemd
On the notebook systemd + all the other stuff works fine. On the server sysvinit + all the other stuff works fine - but here no networkmanager or whatever is needed
Sorry to take so long in my reply. I am still in the midst of moving house.
Now that you tell me that networkmanager depends on systemd, that makes sense, and explains why tdenetworkmanager has stopped working after about Jessie. (I am running Devuan, by the way.)
Now the problem is, how to get a networkmanager that actually works for me that doesn't depend on systemd. I can only assume that the people at Devuan know about this, so maybe they will come up with a solution, or somebody will find some workarounds.
As for me, systemd is a deal-breaker. My machine would always hang, and there was nothing I could do but to reboot constantly. Since using Devuan and init, no problems at all.
I note the recent discussion about wicd, and I believe that *extremist* may be too extreme a word to describe deloptes, as I have got some good pointers in the past. We all like what works best for us, and we tend to project our views on others.
For anybody who is stuck between those choices, I would note that the packages for wicd are still available (sometimes for older releases), and so far they still work fine. I myself save my packages, so that I can install without an internet connection.
If there are other solutions, I would like to hear them, because so far TDE works great, except for tdenetworkmanager. It would be nice if this did not depend on neworkmanager, and thus systemd. Is there any hope of a non-systemd networkmanager, if wicd becomes useless?
:-\
Bill
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
As for me, systemd is a deal-breaker. My machine would always hang, and there was nothing I could do but to reboot constantly. Since using Devuan and init, no problems at all.
just a short answer. Now 11/9/2021 systemd is fine to use. I also postponed adopting it for few years, but I setup couple of requirements and at some point of time it beat them. So ATM I am using it on the Desktop and Notebook. On the server and firewall I do not see any benefit, so I use sysvinit-core.
What Devuan does is to be respected, but IMO it is waist of time. Those precious resources could be used to improve Debian itself.
Sure there are and will be issues with systemd, but for now in Debian stable it is unlikely as systemd is already mature enough.
I am not advocating for systemd, but after studying the backgrounds and why it was adopted by all major distros, it really makes sense (even on servers)
Anyway - this is my PoV, my thoughts and my experience.
On Tuesday 09 November 2021 15:05:00 deloptes wrote:
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
As for me, systemd is a deal-breaker. My machine would always hang, and there was nothing I could do but to reboot constantly. Since using Devuan and init, no problems at all.
just a short answer. Now 11/9/2021 systemd is fine to use. I also postponed adopting it for few years, but I setup couple of requirements and at some point of time it beat them. So ATM I am using it on the Desktop and Notebook. On the server and firewall I do not see any benefit, so I use sysvinit-core.
What Devuan does is to be respected, but IMO it is waist of time. Those precious resources could be used to improve Debian itself.
Sure there are and will be issues with systemd, but for now in Debian stable it is unlikely as systemd is already mature enough.
I am not advocating for systemd, but after studying the backgrounds and why it was adopted by all major distros, it really makes sense (even on servers)
Anyway - this is my PoV, my thoughts and my experience.
It's good to hear your opinion in some depth. I like to weigh different sides so that I can make choices. I am not techie enough to dig into why Debian or Devuan; I only know what makes sense in terms of their stated philosophy, and ultimately, what works best for me.
I've read some of the background of the "political" mess and various personal scandals at Debian, and I wondered why a person's private life should affect their organization, or why should that have any bearing on whether they go with systemd or not. Maybe you know about these incidents?
Anyway, it was for me more a problem of philosophy; that systemd tried to do too much, things which went against the rules laid down for Debian itself from the start.
Whether any of those other things matter is, it seems to me, pointless. My only real test is what works for me, and so far the new systemd Debian doesn't. Now, sometime in the (near?) future I plan to get into a bigger place to live, where I can have enough space to run several machines to do their various things. And then, I imagine, I will try out some other distros, and I'll probably give Debian a try. But since I don't have much space, I confine myself to a single machine, and it doesn't seem to like Debian.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Bill
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
It's good to hear your opinion in some depth. I like to weigh different sides so that I can make choices. I am not techie enough to dig into why Debian or Devuan; I only know what makes sense in terms of their stated philosophy, and ultimately, what works best for me.
I've read some of the background of the "political" mess and various personal scandals at Debian, and I wondered why a person's private life should affect their organization, or why should that have any bearing on whether they go with systemd or not. Maybe you know about these incidents?
No, I did not have time to learn why Debian adopted it nor I had time to read about personal issues in Debian. I read the arguments why systemd is needed and why it was decided to be adopted (these are the same arguments leading to this fact), which brings me to your next point.
Anyway, it was for me more a problem of philosophy; that systemd tried to do too much, things which went against the rules laid down for Debian itself from the start.
At the end you would agree that systemd is not exactly trying to do too much. It is responding to a need, which is "there is too much to do". A dynamic computer like Desktop or Notebook needs an application such as systemd. If systemd and its design/implementation are the best fit to this need, I do not know. I just can hope the people behind are mature enough to do something useful (although some of the stories I read make me believe some of them are lunatics) Never mind, at the end I had same thinking as you and saw where the journey was going. I live and work in 2021. I work with computers and servers, I earn money with it. It is inevitable to know systemd. The more you know it, the better you understand it. At the end a kind of relationship develops. My server at home with pure old init, feels like archaic today. But I have only couple of services running there, that do not require the dynamics of systemd
Whether any of those other things matter is, it seems to me, pointless. My only real test is what works for me, and so far the new systemd Debian doesn't. Now, sometime in the (near?) future I plan to get into a bigger place to live, where I can have enough space to run several machines to do their various things. And then, I imagine, I will try out some other distros, and I'll probably give Debian a try. But since I don't have much space, I confine myself to a single machine, and it doesn't seem to like Debian.
It usually takes one USB stick with the size of a thumb nail to try Debian, but I am not telling you what to do.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
You are welcome
It usually takes one USB stick with the size of a thumb nail to try Debian, but I am not telling you what to do.
I have been "trying" Debian since version 6.x (I forget the code name); but as I was changing from Kubuntu, I needed to learn a few things, and never got it working quite right. Only with Jessie did I have success, but as I said, networking became a problem.
At last I switched to Devuan, starting with Jessie, and suddenly everything worked! It was like magic, only without the need for blood sacrifices and all that. The biggest problem was always with the network.
Now wicd will be obsolete? They (whoever "they" are) really don't want me to connect to the internet.
Bill
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
At last I switched to Devuan, starting with Jessie, and suddenly everything worked! It was like magic, only without the need for blood sacrifices and all that. The biggest problem was always with the network.
might be coincidence, because after jessie many things started working, but hey we have choices and whatever works is the best
Now wicd will be obsolete? They (whoever "they" are) really don't want me to connect to the internet.
I still believe network manager became stable and is the way to go if you need dynamic network management. Even if you do not like tdenetworkmanager, you could learn network manager. It has CLI, ncurses and all kind of other guis.
IF you have static network - the old /etc/network/interfaces still works, but if you have wireless it could be a pain
BR
On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:22:05 -0800 William Morder via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
If there are other solutions, I would like to hear them, because so far TDE works great, except for tdenetworkmanager. It would be nice if this did not depend on neworkmanager, and thus systemd. Is there any hope of a non-systemd networkmanager, if wicd becomes useless?
networkmanager is not, in fact, dependent on systemd as such—elogind should be an acceptable substitute (if it isn't, it's because of the way your distro has compiled it, not some innate feature of the program).
dhcpcd, with wpa_supplicant for wireless support, should be an adequate alternative for most normal networking cases, although dhcpcd doesn't have a GUI (configuring it should be something you need to do only once, though—mostly it just needs to know what network card to bind to), and wpa_supplicant's GUI wasn't great as of some years ago when I last needed to use it. Neither should care what init system they're running on, though.
If you've got a desktop, you may not need any of the above—I'm not sure how Devuan operates, but Gentoo provides enough support for static wired network configurations in the netifrc base package, although you need to know things like the netmask and gateway address for your LAN to use it effectively.
E. Liddell
On Wednesday 10 November 2021 11:46:01 E. Liddell wrote:
On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:22:05 -0800
William Morder via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
If there are other solutions, I would like to hear them, because so far TDE works great, except for tdenetworkmanager. It would be nice if this did not depend on neworkmanager, and thus systemd. Is there any hope of a non-systemd networkmanager, if wicd becomes useless?
networkmanager is not, in fact, dependent on systemd as such—elogind should be an acceptable substitute (if it isn't, it's because of the way your distro has compiled it, not some innate feature of the program).
dhcpcd, with wpa_supplicant for wireless support, should be an adequate alternative for most normal networking cases, although dhcpcd doesn't have a GUI (configuring it should be something you need to do only once, though—mostly it just needs to know what network card to bind to), and wpa_supplicant's GUI wasn't great as of some years ago when I last needed to use it. Neither should care what init system they're running on, though.
If you've got a desktop, you may not need any of the above—I'm not sure how Devuan operates, but Gentoo provides enough support for static wired network configurations in the netifrc base package, although you need to know things like the netmask and gateway address for your LAN to use it effectively.
E. Liddell
Yes, I use a self-built Frankenstein desktop, although I am looking for a laptop, probably a Lenovo something, which looks best for me according to what I've been reading online.
If it comes down to no wicd, that would be fine if I can still use TDE, as I like to stick with Trinity where I can. At least this gives me some clue about how to make it work.
For future TDE development, it would be nice to imagine that tdenetworkmanager will work with both systemd and init, for those who care.
Maybe Santa Claus reads this mailing list?
Bill
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deloptes -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
E. Liddell -
Stefan Krusche -
William Morder