20 May
2024
20 May
'24
8:14 p.m.
Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI laptop. The article is here
but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/
The discussion is visible in LWN's RSS feed. Thus far
I see two short threads:
https://lwn.net/Articles/974365/
https://lwn.net/Articles/974381/
Maybe TDE devs can add some useful info to the latter thread.
20 May
20 May
8:29 p.m.
On 5/20/24 3:14 PM, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI laptop.
The article is here
but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/
The discussion is visible in LWN's RSS feed. Thus far
I see two short threads:
https://lwn.net/Articles/974365/
https://lwn.net/Articles/974381/
Maybe TDE devs can add some useful info to the latter thread.
Sometimes LWN subscribers can make the article public before the
two-week period expires. Until then we'll have to wait to see what the
author actually wrote.
My wild guess is Joe Brockmeier, newly hired at LWN, is the author. Joe
has been around free/libre circles for a few decades.
The title of the article, "Trinity keeps KDE 3 on life support" is off
putting. This is something I inferred in a previous post that because
TDE is not "new" or "shiny" that people should disregard all efforts.
What I find puzzling is people do not use the same condescending
verbiage when referring to MATE -- a fork of GNOME 2, or Xfce, a desktop
environment with very slow development cycles. Many people do not use
that kind of verbiage when referring to various window managers that
have been around since the 1990s. So why the useless jabs at TDE? This
type of cynicism has been ongoing since the original KDE 3 fork.
Perhaps the TDE documentation and wiki should be reviewed to minimize
any mention of being a fork. Just focus on TDE being its own software?
But this is the way many people think. Not new or shiny -- "Meh."
10:04 p.m.
Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
Perhaps the TDE documentation and wiki should be
reviewed to minimize
any mention of being a fork. Just focus on TDE being its own software?
but this is not factually correct as it is a fork.
But this is the way many people think. Not new or
shiny -- "Meh."
This is exactly right. I found there are two type of people: smart and dumb.
Why bothering with the latter? This fact can not be changed. The smart one
would use older tool to accomplish a task, because the tool works well. The
latter category would try to use something that would brake while solving
the task only because it is shiny.
The problem is that the "Meh" is creating a bad publicity for TDE, but so be
it. The truth is always shy. I guess those people (at least this is my
experience with such people) always try something new in the hope this will
be the one that works perfectly well ... then there comes the "Meh" and
they move to the next one and the next one and the next one.
10:32 p.m.
On 5/20/24 5:04 PM, deloptes via tde-users wrote:
but this is not factually correct as it is a fork.
I did not mean to deny the fork, only to not emphasize. :) Such as with
press releases.
My idea is eluding click-bait authors into not emphasizing the original
fork. They seldom do that with MATE. MATE is treated as standing on its
own. TDE is still treated like the proverbial red-headed step child.
I am hardly surprised when these authors rant about perceived missing
features and then dismiss the entire project. After all, look at the
author's profile byline and notice the "I am cool because I wear
sunglasses" picture. My sunglasses mean I am smart and you're not.
Something about baby and bath water or letting perfect being the enemy
of good. Still the same argument -- not shiny -- meh.
Sometimes I like being a grumpy old man. :)
22 May
22 May
7:01 p.m.
said deloptes via tde-users:
| The problem is that the "Meh" is creating a bad publicity for TDE, but
| so be it. The truth is always shy. I guess those people (at least this
| is my experience with such people) always try something new in the hope
| this will be the one that works perfectly well ... then there comes the
| "Meh" and they move to the next one and the next one and the next one.
It's an example I always use, but it's exemplary: put the current KDE and
the current TDE on identical computers. Ask any user to add an application
to Kicker (or whatever they call it on blood-without-the-good-stuff). When
they fail, drag an application from KMenu to Kicker. Then jump through the
hoops you have to jump through with Plasma. And point out that in the
latter there is *no* good reason for the added complication. No benefit at
all. None.
--
dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album
Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
20 May
20 May
9:55 p.m.
Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
The discussion is visible in LWN's RSS feed. Thus
far
I see two short threads:
https://lwn.net/Articles/974365/
https://lwn.net/Articles/974381/
Maybe TDE devs can add some useful info to the latter thread.
I am using TDE via Thunderbolt, but my external display is 1980x1040, so I
can not speak about higher resolutions. The notebook I use TDE has 13.3"
1920 x 1080 Anti-Glare IPS Display. It works just fine over Thunderbolt.
It seems some use cases are being discussed in the article or discussion,
but there are no details on those use cases.
For example I recently converted one machine to Proxmox and migrated all of
my VMs there. Now, when I run a TDE desktop and use the NoVNC web console I
have absolutely no issue with rendering speed. It feels like working on the
local machine.
10:43 p.m.
On 5/20/24 3:14 PM, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI laptop.
The article is here
but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/
The discussion is visible in LWN's RSS feed. Thus far
I see two short threads:
https://lwn.net/Articles/974365/
https://lwn.net/Articles/974381/
Maybe TDE devs can add some useful info to the latter thread.
I should add that most people do not use such condescending verbiage
when talking about people who restore furniture or vintage cars. Seems
this attitude prevails too much with software development.
There is no "life support" involved. There is only people developing and
using software because they want to. Crazy concept that people should do
what they want and enjoy life rather than follow lemmings.
Not to mention keeping functional computers out of landfills.
Sorry, just another grumpy old man moment shaking fists at clouds.
11:32 p.m.
On Monday 20 May 2024 15:43:03 Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
On 5/20/24 3:14 PM, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
I should add that most people do not use such condescending verbiage
when talking about people who restore furniture or vintage cars. Seems
this attitude prevails too much with software development.
There is no "life support" involved. There is only people developing and
using software because they want to. Crazy concept that people should do
what they want and enjoy life rather than follow lemmings.
Not to mention keeping functional computers out of landfills.
Sorry, just another grumpy old man moment shaking fists at clouds.
I propose to divide all computer stuff (both hardware and software) into just
two categories:
SUCKS & DOESN'T SUCK
But to stick with our desktop question:
sucks
------
KDE/4/5/6
Gnome
etc.
sucks less
------------
MATE
LXDE
etc.
doesn't suck at all
----------------------
TDE
can't think of any others
The categories are inspired by deloptes' earlier comment, two kinds of people,
smart and dumb.
By the way, there are only two kinds of anything, really, when you think about
it, good or bad: good music or bad music, good food or bad food, good beer or
bad beer ...
Everything else is just a matter of degree, exactly how good or how bad.
Bill
21 May
21 May
12:12 a.m.
On Monday 20 May 2024 06:32:31 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
But to stick with our desktop question:
sucks
------
KDE/4/5/6
Gnome
XFCE <~~~~ I AM ADDING THIS ONE lol. #NOTsorry.
LXQT <~~~~ I AM ADDING THIS ONE TOO, due to they
killed off LXDE. I loved
LXDE too.
sucks less
------------
LXDE
etc.
doesn't suck at all
----------------------
TDE
MATE <~~~~ NOPE, MATE SHOULD BE HERE. :D I LOVE MATE.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks,
Chris
OFF LIST: CM030(a)YAHOO.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
12:56 a.m.
On Monday 20 May 2024 17:12:37 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
Well, to me MATE is tolerable, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that I love
it. For me, there are only two for which I might use the L word, and that is
KDE3.5 and TDE.
Bill
On Monday 20 May 2024 06:32:31 pm William Morder via
tde-users wrote:
TDE
MATE <~~~~ NOPE, MATE SHOULD BE HERE. :D I LOVE MATE.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------- Thanks,
Chris 
6:56 a.m.
Anno domini 2024 Mon, 20 May 17:56:47 -0700
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Monday 20 May 2024 17:12:37 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
Well, to me MATE is tolerable, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that I love
it. For me, there are only two for which I might use the L word, and that is
KDE3.5 and TDE.
:) I'd add FVWM to this list. Not a DE but a programmable WM. Once upon a time when
KDE3's future was not clear I remodeled most parts of KDE3 in fvwm - not the
applications, but enough of the rest to keep a KDE feeling without KDE.
What really pisses me nowadays is that most applications using QT5/QT6/GTK3 cannot handle
HDPI displays at all. And the color presets - even for dark mode - try to rebuild the user
experience on shaby first generation TFTs with 1:100 contrast ratio. Just a PITA to get
these color schemes to actually use good contrast. And the fonts ... who teaches devopers
to make pick the smallest, contrast-less fonts possible and don't let the user escape
that hell? Thin pastel fonts on gray backgroud, really?
Nik
On Monday 20 May 2024 06:32:31 pm William Morder
via tde-users wrote:
TDE
MATE <~~~~ NOPE, MATE SHOULD BE HERE. :D I LOVE MATE.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------- Thanks,
Chris
Bill
____________________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org
Web mail archive available at
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7:16 a.m.
On 2024-05-21 01:56:12 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
Anno domini 2024 Mon, 20 May 17:56:47 -0700
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
And why are default fonts always Sans-Serif? (Not sure who started this, but
I suspect MacroShaft.) I suppose it's more of the "dumb down the user
interface" nonsense that Gnome et al promulgated.* There are too many easily
confused glyphs in Sans-Serif fonts. Thank goodness that in the control
center I can set all of the non-monospace fonts at once!
Leslie
* And while Gnome has done that, they and KDE4+ have gone to extremes to make
it difficult to configure their DEs by scattering settings all over the
place, and Mozilla seems to want to thwart their users' desire to make their
applications user-friendly by hiding most settings in about:config and
providing no documentation at all. :-(
--
Platform: Linux
Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.5 - x86_64
Desktop Environment: Trinity
Qt: 3.5.0
TDE: R14.1.2
tde-config: 1.0
On Monday 20 May 2024 17:12:37 Chris M via
tde-users wrote:
:) I'd add FVWM to this list. Not a DE but a programmable WM. Once upon a
: time when KDE3's future was not clear I remodeled most parts of KDE3 in
: fvwm - not the applications, but enough of the rest to keep a KDE feeling
: without KDE.
What really pisses me nowadays is that most applications using QT5/QT6/GTK3
cannot handle HDPI displays at all. And the color presets - even for dark
mode - try to rebuild the user experience on shaby first generation TFTs
with 1:100 contrast ratio. Just a PITA to get these color schemes to
actually use good contrast. And the fonts ... who teaches devopers to make
pick the smallest, contrast-less fonts possible and don't let the user
escape that hell? Thin pastel fonts on gray backgroud, really?
Nik
> Bill On Monday 20 May 2024 06:32:31 pm William Morder
via tde-users wrote:
Well, to me MATE is tolerable, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that I
love it. For me, there are only two for which I might use the L word, and
that is KDE3.5 and TDE.
TDE
MATE <~~~~ NOPE, MATE SHOULD BE HERE. :D I LOVE MATE.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---- -------------------------- Thanks,
Chris
5:12 p.m.
On 5/21/24 2:16 AM, J Leslie Turriff via tde-users wrote:
And why are default fonts always Sans-Serif? (Not
sure who started this, but
I suspect MacroShaft.) I suppose it's more of the "dumb down the user
interface" nonsense that Gnome et al promulgated.* There are too many easily
confused glyphs in Sans-Serif fonts. Thank goodness that in the control
center I can set all of the non-monospace fonts at once!
I worked as a tech writer for many years. Back in the day before
computers, a general rule of thumb was Sans Serif Bold for headings and
serif for content text. There were always artistic exceptions but often
that was a starting point. This general perspective still prevails with
computer text as seen in KDE/TDE Handbooks.
The roots of typography go far back, before computer companies existed.
Newspaper and magazine editors had notable influence on typography. The
common Times and Times New Roman font was created for newspapers, where
the content was in narrow columns. Serif fonts helped people read and
browse the columns faster. Studies have shown that most people do not
actually read word-for-word, but skim through words and serif fonts help
with that.
Regional and cultural differences played a role. All those little jots
and tittles and diacritics.
Before computers there were typewriters. About the only way to change
emphasis was underlining. The IBM Selectric more or less revolutionized
office typing with the removable typeface balls and eraser ribbons.
Typography has been continually evolving since the first days of movable
type.
Through this evolution there have been popular style guides such as the
Chicago Manual of Style, AP style guide, etc., all still around.
When computers became popular, some early usability studies found Sans
Serif usually more readable on screen than Serif. A notable difference
with computer screens, and with human eyes, is print is based on
reflected light and screens on emitted light. Human eyes are not well
adapted to viewing emitted light and too many people these days succumb
to eyeglasses.
Another change with computers was jargon. For decades the common user
and technical guide had a one-page preface explaining what the different
typefaces represented.
Microsoft was one of the first computer companies to contribute to some
consistency with computer typography and style with their Manual of
Style for Technical Publications. I still have my copy ((c) 1995) on my
desk and the original copy is online. Regardless of opinions about
Windows through the years, the Windows Help interface was consistent and
helped many people. Cottage industries appeared developing software
devoted to creating Windows Help dialogs.
This is something the original Unix and KDE folks got right with man
pages and Docbook standard handbooks. Regardless of content, there is at
least a high degree of consistency with how these software documents look.
As a former tech writer, software Help remains something that annoys the
Hell out of me. Most developers nowadays do not embed help into their
software. Instead they presume everybody is connected 24/7 and link all
Help to online web sites. Not connected? Too bad for you -- no help is
available.
10:34 p.m.
On 2024-05-21 12:12:18 Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
When computers became popular, some early usability
studies found Sans
Serif usually more readable on screen than Serif. A notable difference
with computer screens, and with human eyes, is print is based on
reflected light and screens on emitted light. Human eyes are not well
adapted to viewing emitted light and too many people these days succumb
to eyeglasses.
I believe that part of that was due to the nature of low-resolution bitmapped
fonts. Now we have higher resolutions and anti-aliasing, but inertia has led
us to continue with fonts that are IMO suboptimal.
Leslie
--
Platform: Linux
Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.5 - x86_64
Desktop Environment: Trinity
Qt: 3.5.0
TDE: R14.1.2
tde-config: 1.0
22 May
22 May
7:09 p.m.
said J Leslie Turriff via tde-users:
| And why are default fonts always Sans-Serif? (Not sure who started
| this, but I suspect MacroShaft.) I suppose it's more of the "dumb down
| the user interface" nonsense that Gnome et al promulgated.* There are
| too many easily confused glyphs in Sans-Serif fonts. Thank goodness
| that in the control center I can set all of the non-monospace fonts at
| once!
The defaults are not annoying if they're easy to change, which they are in
TDE and aren't much of anyplace else. Also, when you make changes in TDE,
they stick. One of the irritations I found in whatever the
Plasma-derivative thing PiOS uses is that the system lets individual
applications undo the settings. On KDE and then TDE I've kept the same
settings for *decades.* And Netscape, later Opera, later Mozilla has not
been able to break them. (KDE-1.x icons, too, until there were just too
many things that didn't exist in the KDE-1.x era!)
--
dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album
Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
21 May
21 May
4:34 p.m.
On 5/21/24 1:56 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
What really pisses me nowadays is that most
applications using QT5/QT6/GTK3 cannot handle HDPI displays at all. And the color presets
- even for dark mode - try to rebuild the user experience on shaby first generation TFTs
with 1:100 contrast ratio. Just a PITA to get these color schemes to actually use good
contrast. And the fonts ... who teaches devopers to make pick the smallest, contrast-less
fonts possible and don't let the user escape that hell? Thin pastel fonts on gray
backgroud, really?
I think this derives from a couple of places: 1) smart phones and
tablets, and 2) developers using monitors bigger than most TVs. Either
way developers lose any sense of proportion or usability.
I have been complaining about small fonts for about 20 years, especially
web sites. Now that I am old and grumpy, small fonts are poison for
folks like me.
Those developers with big monitors likely test only for big monitors and
smart phones. Often they do not seem to test for anything in between
such as laptops and modest home systems.
I struggle with this in the house network. TV is 37" 1920x1080, office
desktop is 22" 1920x1080, laptop 1 is 15" 1920x1080, laptop 2 is 14"
1280x800. Testing systems include 19" 1680x1050, 21" 1600x900 monitor,
17" 1280x1024, and 15" 1024x768.
Back in the day of 4:3 aspect ratios, there was not much choice and
video cards were designed for that. Nowadays monitor sizes and
resolutions are all over the place. I don't think developers and
engineers have really caught up.
5:35 p.m.
Darrell Anderson composed on 2024-05-21 11:34 (UTC-0500):
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
> who teaches devopers to make pick the smallest,
contrast-less fonts possible and don't let the user escape that hell? Thin pastel
fonts on gray backgroud, really?
I think this derives from a couple of places: 1) smart
phones and
tablets, and 2) developers using monitors bigger than most TVs. Either
way developers lose any sense of proportion or usability.
Smart phones may have bloated the problem, but they certainly are not the
derivation, as the problem dates back to well before the web arrived on mobile phones.
I have been complaining about small fonts for about 20
years, especially
web sites. Now that I am old and grumpy, small fonts are poison for
folks like me.
me2
Those developers with big monitors likely test only
for big monitors and
smart phones. Often they do not seem to test for anything in between
such as laptops and modest home systems.
It's not just developers using big monitors, but also who as a group website
developers are - mainly relative youngsters with good eyesight. In general, people
with poor eyesight don't get into any business involving constant or extensive PC
use, but more like quite the opposite. They're mostly naive youngsters or relative
youngsters who don't have any clue about the trouble they cause force-feeding
mousetype and demi-weight fonts. At least, they don't until they've been at it a
while, and learn that testing is inadequate unless also using environments less
like those they themselves use for their daily work.
I struggle with this in the house network. TV is
37" 1920x1080, office
desktop is 22" 1920x1080, laptop 1 is 15" 1920x1080, laptop 2 is 14"
1280x800. Testing systems include 19" 1680x1050, 21" 1600x900 monitor,
17" 1280x1024, and 15" 1024x768.
55" 3840x2160 LR TV; 24" 1920x1200 main display; 27" 2560x1440, 24"
1920x1200, 22"
1680x1050 X3, 31.5" 1920x1080 (TV) displays for secondary PC and test PCs
continuously at ready (6 total always on desk); 14" 1280x800 laptops; 20"
1600x900
X2, 19" 1440x900, 17" 1280x1024, 14" 1024x768 X2, any of which can be added
to the
six. In the guest bedroom there's a 24" 1920x1200 iMac and 43" 1920x1080
TV.
Back in the day of 4:3 aspect ratios, there was not
much choice and
video cards were designed for that. Nowadays monitor sizes and
resolutions are all over the place. I don't think developers and
engineers have really caught up.
That and their addiction to the power CSS gives them to make everything "just
so"
to their own liking.
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata
22 May
22 May
4:24 p.m.
On Tuesday 21 May 2024 12:35:09 pm Felix Miata via tde-users wrote:
Me Third!!!!! lol.
I am "young" per se lol, I just turned 40 this year, and the first thing I do
when setting up my OS is bump up the Font DPI and font sizes in my OS.
Yes, I should be wearing my glasses but, sometimes I just can't be bothered to
hunt where I last laid them down at. lol. * Shrugs* :P
Chris
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks,
Chris
OFF LIST: CM030(a)JUNO.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
I have been complaining about small fonts for
about 20 years, especially
web sites. Now that I am old and grumpy, small fonts are poison for
folks like me.
me2 -- Felix
7:24 p.m.
said Felix Miata via tde-users:
| 55" 3840x2160 LR TV; 24" 1920x1200 main display; 27" 2560x1440, 24"
| 1920x1200, 22" 1680x1050 X3, 31.5" 1920x1080 (TV) displays for secondary
| PC and test PCs continuously at ready (6 total always on desk); 14"
| 1280x800 laptops; 20" 1600x900 X2, 19" 1440x900, 17" 1280x1024, 14"
| 1024x768 X2, any of which can be added to the six. In the guest bedroom
| there's a 24" 1920x1200 iMac and 43" 1920x1080 TV.
When I gave the 55-inch TV over to the RPi, the first thing I did was set
it to 1920x1080 instead of 4k. Remember, DVD quality is 480p. BluRay is
720p, with some expensive and largely impractical exceptions. Going beyond
that is mostly to appeal to the more money than sense, keep up with the
Joneses crowd. For all but a very few purposes, and at distances of normal
use, I defy anyone to find much if any difference between 1080p and 8k.
It's like digital cameras, back when the marketing was that more megapixels
meant better, even though Sports Illustrated was getting those stunning
covers with the 2.7-megapixel Nikon D-1 cameras.
--
dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album
Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
21 May
21 May
10:31 p.m.
On 2024-05-21 11:34:01 Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
On 5/21/24 1:56 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users
wrote:
Haven't you heard? Nobody uses
desktop systems anymore. :-> Thank goodness
TDE allows one to adjust the DPI to compensate for this. It might be nice,
though, if it could look at the monitor characteristics and guess what a
useful setting could be. My monitor is 30" 2560x1080 and 120DPI works well,
but the laptop is worse: 15" 1920x1080, and 120DPI is marginal at best.
What really pisses me nowadays is that most
applications using
QT5/QT6/GTK3 cannot handle HDPI displays at all. And the color presets -
even for dark mode - try to rebuild the user experience on shaby first
generation TFTs with 1:100 contrast ratio. Just a PITA to get these color
schemes to actually use good contrast. And the fonts ... who teaches
devopers to make pick the smallest, contrast-less fonts possible and
don't let the user escape that hell? Thin pastel fonts on gray backgroud,
really?
I think this derives from a couple of places: 1) smart phones and
tablets, and 2) developers using monitors bigger than most TVs. Either
way developers lose any sense of proportion or usability.
I have been complaining about small fonts for about 20 years, especially
web sites. Now that I am old and grumpy, small fonts are poison for
folks like me.
Those developers with big monitors likely test only for big monitors and
smart phones. Often they do not seem to test for anything in between
such as laptops and modest home systems.
I struggle with this in the house network. TV is 37" 1920x1080, office
desktop is 22" 1920x1080, laptop 1 is 15" 1920x1080, laptop 2 is 14"
1280x800. Testing systems include 19" 1680x1050, 21" 1600x900 monitor,
17" 1280x1024, and 15" 1024x768.
Back in the day of 4:3 aspect ratios, there was not much choice and
video cards were designed for that. Nowadays monitor sizes and
resolutions are all over the place. I don't think developers and
engineers have really caught up.
Leslie
--
Platform: Linux
Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.5 - x86_64
Desktop Environment: Trinity
Qt: 3.5.0
TDE: R14.1.2
tde-config: 1.0
2:49 a.m.
On 5/20/24 6:32 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
SUCKS & DOESN'T SUCK
But to stick with our desktop question:
sucks
------
KDE/4/5/6
Gnome
etc.
sucks less
------------
MATE
LXDE
etc.
doesn't suck at all
----------------------
TDE
can't think of any others
Because of employment requirements, I used MATE for a few years until
the devs adopted GTK 3. End of the road. I used Xfce for a few years
thereafter and then those devs succumbed to the GTK3 spider web. End of
the road.
I have no hatred for KDE 5 and after much sweat equity pruned the bloat
to create a boring and basic desktop. Along the way I have been
returning to TDE, little by little.
I tried LXQT for a few weeks. Nice but not close to KDE or TDE. Should
keep maturing though to provide another Qt alternative.
GNOME is just another four letter word for me (the G is silent remember?).
6:45 a.m.
William Morder composed on 2024-05-20 16:32 (UTC-0700):
TDE
can't think of any others
Maybe because you don't use openSUSE, from where KDE3 never left, and where I've
primarily been, since around the time KDE 3.5.0 was released.
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata
11:05 p.m.
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
The categories are inspired by deloptes' earlier
comment, two kinds of
people, smart and dumb.
By the way, there are only two kinds of anything, really, when you think
about it, good or bad: good music or bad music, good food or bad food,
good beer or bad beer ...
Everything else is just a matter of degree, exactly how good or how bad.
Exactly right - this is the binary nature of the universe. From the POV of
epistemology we could add "I don't know", but from the POV of ontology it
is irrelevant and everything would fall into one of those categories.
There are still few things that need improvement in TDE though - it ain't
perfect
11:28 p.m.
On Tuesday 21 May 2024 16:05:09 deloptes via tde-users wrote:
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
People get too hung up on the power of reviews, but don't think critically
about how that system used to be structured.
There was a time when reviews might have actually meant something; but even
that is questionable. Back in the newspaper days, an *individual* food critic
or music critic might give a subject 1-5 stars, in which case it meant
something. Whether one agreed with the critic's judgment or not is another
matter, but at least it was clear what that review meant.
When we get masses of people all trying to give 1-5 star reviews, it actually
screws up the system, and gives us false readings.
I worked some jobs (many years ago) where people would review our work, 1-5
stars. But we found out very quickly, with so many people making their
own "reviews" (really, just votes), that there was one BIG problem with the
system.
To get anything less than 4 or 5 stars was like a death sentence: might as
well get just 1 star, because it messed up your numbers, and anybody who
wasn't regularly pulling an average of 4.5 stars or better would be cut out
of the loop, stop getting work, which affected income, life, everything.
If people had just voted yes or no, good or bad, that would give truer
results. 85% positive is better than saying your work gets 4.89 stars out of
5, especially if those "reviewers" are really just customers or clients, who
moreover have had somebody beg them not to give less than 5 stars, or at the
very least, not less than 4 stars.
It reminds me of that radio show that we used to have here in the US, Prairie
Home Companion, where in Garrison Keillor's imaginary hometown, "all the
children are above average"!
Bill
The categories are inspired by deloptes'
earlier comment, two kinds of
people, smart and dumb.
By the way, there are only two kinds of anything, really, when you think
about it, good or bad: good music or bad music, good food or bad food,
good beer or bad beer ...
Everything else is just a matter of degree, exactly how good or how bad.
Exactly right - this is the binary nature of the universe. From the POV of
epistemology we could add "I don't know", but from the POV of ontology it
is irrelevant and everything would fall into one of those categories.
There are still few things that need improvement in TDE though - it ain't
perfect
22 May
22 May
12:13 a.m.
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
There was a time when reviews might have actually
meant something; but
even that is questionable. Back in the newspaper days, an *individual*
food critic or music critic might give a subject 1-5 stars, in which case
it meant something. Whether one agreed with the critic's judgment or not
is another matter, but at least it was clear what that review meant.
Reviewers do not work for our benefit. They work for their own benefit -
they get money or quotes. This means they write the review for specific
target group and the wider the group, the better the results (for them).
So the key is the target group. Unfortunately in the past 30y or so the west
turned into lazy stupid consumer society and worst of all are the younger
people. Even if they have good education etc., they want everything to be
easy, quick and simple. Because of TV and smart phone, they can hardly
concentrate and barely comprehend complex propositions. This is how I
explain to myself all the changes in Gnome/KDE etc. and the LWN article.
TDE is too complex, has too many options needs learning and reading ... it
can not be managed by one click only etc.
Couple of years ago we talked about a movie called Idiocracy. A friend said
it is not the future, it is the now. Sadly it is true.
This is why I think it is irrelevant what people think. It is important to
have a good and clear vision. Whoever can value TDE, will benefit from it's
stability. There are just few things that needs improvement so that it is
more contemporary (DBus integration, OAuth to name some for example)
6 p.m.
said Mike Bird via tde-users:
| Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI laptop. The article is
| here but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
|
| https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/
|
| The discussion is visible in LWN's RSS feed. Thus far
| I see two short threads:
|
| https://lwn.net/Articles/974365/
| https://lwn.net/Articles/974381/
|
| Maybe TDE devs can add some useful info to the latter thread.
Possibly TDE is not favored by those who keep LWN on life support. I was
actually surprised that it still exists.
--
dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album
Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
31 May
31 May
2:52 a.m.
On 5/20/24 3:14 PM, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI laptop.
The article is here
but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/
Today the article became available to non subscribers. Please read
before replying. :)
Possible helpful points:
"None of the major Linux distributions have an official TDE spin or
include its packages in their official repositories...."
The Q4OS folks officially support TDE, but Q4OS probably is not
considered a major distro. Does having a "Tubuntu" spin improve
credibility? That TDE is not part of official repos does seem to raise
eyebrows when other "lesser" desktop environments such as MATE, Xfce,
Cinnamon, Budgie, LXQt, LXDE, and Enlightenment are supported
officially. Would be nice to see TDE receive more positive support
upstream, but is being included in official repos important?
"Though the Trinity web site claims compatibility with newer hardware,
it had some significant issues with a high-resolution (HiDPI) laptop
display and external monitors over Thunderbolt connections."
Outside of KDE and GNOME, a lazy web search seems to indicate none of
the other "lesser" desktop environments provide a Thunderbolt management
front-end.
"For example, on a 13" laptop display with 2256x1504 resolution, TDE's
user-interface elements were too small to use comfortably."
A 13" inch display seems small. Maybe not. In today's world where many
computer users wear eyeglasses, how many people can "comfortably" use a
13" inch display at such high resolutions? How do other desktop
environments or window managers fare in that same environment? High
resolution support probably is something that should be addressed in
TDE, but this complaint seems to be a nit pick outside an area of how
many people use computers.
"Trying to use the network settings utility pops up an "unsupported
platform" warning, and provides a list of supported distributions: the
most recent of which is from 2015. The backend for the network settings
is the knetworkconf package, a collection of Perl scripts that are far
out of date for managing networking on current Linux systems."
Fair enough. Conversely, if the scripts remain functional then should
they be labeled "far out of date"? Perhaps as long as this specific
backend exists, a tracking item should exist that the visible
distributions list is updated before release. At least provide the
illusion of being current.
"Network configuration is still possible with NetworkManager, but it
isn't integrated into TDE."
Perhaps the author was unaware of the tdenetworkmanager package. I have
not used the package and can't vouch for usability. Does the TDE package
function similarly to the KDE NetworkManager front-end or the GTK
nmcli-applet?
"Users have plenty of configuration options for mice, but no trackpad
options at all."
The lack of a trackpad/touchpad front-end seems a fair point. KDE has an
extensive configuration module for touchpads, while Xfce has a nominal
config module. Probably the other "lesser" desktop environments have
modules too. There is an active feature request (tdebase 481) about
adding TDE Control Center support features. Is this a critical issue?
"Konqueror is still a decent file manager, but it doesn't handle modern
web sites well at all."
Subjective, but Konqueror still rates as one of the finest file
managers. Using Konqueror as a web browser has been debated for years,
within KDE circles and back in the KDE 3 days. Konqueror remains part of
KDE although the underlying web engine has been updated. How well does
KDE Konqueror handle "modern web sites"?
"The Kopete instant-messaging application offers to connect users to
networks and protocols that are either dead and gone (AIM, Yahoo,
Windows WinPopup) or well out of mainstream use (Novell GroupWise, Lotus
Sametime)."
Perhaps the dead and obsolete protocols should be purged from the TDE
source code.
"Support for more recent protocols, such as Matrix instant messaging, is
not to be found."
Matrix is a relatively new kid on the block. The first official release
was 2019. KDE has an "umbrella" project called neochat. Outside of KDE,
most if not all of the current Matrix clients seem to be third-party
rather than desktop natives. Possibly a fine feather in the cap, but
should TDE developers be expected to provide a Matrix client?
"The vintage version of Amarok that is included still lists internet
radio services that are defunct, and it immediately crashes when trying
to play AAC files."
If true then perhaps the defunct services should be pulled from the
code. Has anybody confirmed the AAC issue?
Personal thoughts:
Commenters offered points about interface design and usability
requirements for why TDE remains a valid option.
Some of the article issues seem reasonable, but mostly I am reminded
that articles with these kinds of titles are written and published for
click-bait value. Rather than a muckraking article, this article could
have been written with a perspective and title of "Trinity Continues the
KDE 3 Spirit and Design." These types of articles are not what I expect
from lwn.net.
7:05 a.m.
Anno domini 2024 Thu, 30 May 21:52:05 -0500
Darrell Anderson via tde-users scripsit:
On 5/20/24 3:14 PM, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
Did read it - including the comments :)
Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI
laptop. The article is here
but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/
Today the article became available to non subscribers. Please read
before replying. :)
Possible helpful points:
"None of the major Linux distributions have an official TDE spin or
include its packages in their official repositories...."
The Q4OS folks officially support TDE, but Q4OS probably is not
considered a major distro. Does having a "Tubuntu" spin improve
credibility? That TDE is not part of official repos does seem to raise
eyebrows when other "lesser" desktop environments such as MATE, Xfce,
Cinnamon, Budgie, LXQt, LXDE, and Enlightenment are supported
officially. Would be nice to see TDE receive more positive support
upstream, but is being included in official repos important?
IMO there should be an "official" distribution to battle that argument.
Exegnulinux would fit the bill. I have my own spin of Ceres + TDE and regularly get bitten
by changes in refractrasnapshot that are no fun dealing with (e.g. initrds created from
refractasnapshot are broken but fmsmith does not integrate patches). Anyway, might be
thing to consider. Also "Dark Theme" - I still use the defalt light one but it
looks like it might be time to change that.
"Though the Trinity web site claims compatibility
with newer hardware,
it had some significant issues with a high-resolution (HiDPI) laptop
display and external monitors over Thunderbolt connections."
Outside of KDE and GNOME, a lazy web search seems to indicate none of
the other "lesser" desktop environments provide a Thunderbolt management
front-end.
"For example, on a 13" laptop display with 2256x1504 resolution, TDE's
user-interface elements were too small to use comfortably."
A 13" inch display seems small. Maybe not. In today's world where many
computer users wear eyeglasses, how many people can "comfortably" use a
13" inch display at such high resolutions? How do other desktop
environments or window managers fare in that same environment? High
resolution support probably is something that should be addressed in
TDE, but this complaint seems to be a nit pick outside an area of how
many people use computers.
I use HiDPI and it is no issue to TDE. Problem might be that you need more than 10 seconds
to figure that out. A 13" 16:9 display is as tall as a 12" X61 4:3 - and these
were considered to be just readable when the devices came to the market (1024x786 pixel).
Eyes of humans have not changed since then. Anybody remembers the
"Gamboy-magnifying-glasses" you stuck on top the gamboys displays?
"Trying to use the network settings utility pops
up an "unsupported
platform" warning, and provides a list of supported distributions: the
most recent of which is from 2015. The backend for the network settings
is the knetworkconf package, a collection of Perl scripts that are far
out of date for managing networking on current Linux systems."
Fair enough. Conversely, if the scripts remain functional then should
they be labeled "far out of date"? Perhaps as long as this specific
backend exists, a tracking item should exist that the visible
distributions list is updated before release. At least provide the
illusion of being current.
The author expose a profund ignorance about hardware. Wired internat works without a htch
- that's been for ages ad will as long as no GUI crap interferes. I hate
network-manager, but as the time beeing it works as a (inferior) replacement for wicd.
That's no different to any other DE.
"Network configuration is still possible with
NetworkManager, but it
isn't integrated into TDE."
Perhaps the author was unaware of the tdenetworkmanager package. I have
not used the package and can't vouch for usability. Does the TDE package
function similarly to the KDE NetworkManager front-end or the GTK
nmcli-applet?
Maybe it would be a good idea to include "network-manager-tde" as a recommended
then?
"Users have plenty of configuration options for
mice, but no trackpad
options at all."
The lack of a trackpad/touchpad front-end seems a fair point. KDE has an
extensive configuration module for touchpads, while Xfce has a nominal
config module. Probably the other "lesser" desktop environments have
modules too. There is an active feature request (tdebase 481) about
adding TDE Control Center support features. Is this a critical issue?
I trackpints on my thinkpads. There are only 2 things need to be configured: speed
(transformtion matrix - which is quite straight forward). And the scrolling (press MMB +
move trackpoint scroll in 2D) for which I did not find a solution. And then there are GTK3
applications that may or may not require LMB pressed to make scrolling happen, which is so
GNOMEish ...
"Konqueror is still a decent file manager, but it
doesn't handle modern
web sites well at all."
Subjective, but Konqueror still rates as one of the finest file
managers. Using Konqueror as a web browser has been debated for years,
within KDE circles and back in the KDE 3 days. Konqueror remains part of
KDE although the underlying web engine has been updated. How well does
KDE Konqueror handle "modern web sites"?
It works quite fine on simple pages with CSS1 and JS code from < 2010 - that is, it is
quite useless nowadays on webpages. But it's rendering engine is used in kmail for
HTML mails, too. Maybe it would just be fine to insert firefox as the defaullt in the XDG
settings?
"The Kopete instant-messaging application offers
to connect users to
networks and protocols that are either dead and gone (AIM, Yahoo,
Windows WinPopup) or well out of mainstream use (Novell GroupWise, Lotus
Sametime)."
Perhaps the dead and obsolete protocols should be purged from the TDE
source code.
+1
"Support for more recent protocols, such as
Matrix instant messaging, is
not to be found."
Matrix is a relatively new kid on the block. The first official release
was 2019. KDE has an "umbrella" project called neochat. Outside of KDE,
most if not all of the current Matrix clients seem to be third-party
rather than desktop natives. Possibly a fine feather in the cap, but
should TDE developers be expected to provide a Matrix client?
All the "new" messenger services provide a dedicated messenger. All are moving
targets (but ICQ, and that will be shut down in some weeks). Where to start, where to
stop?
"The vintage version of Amarok that is included
still lists internet
radio services that are defunct, and it immediately crashes when trying
to play AAC files."
If true then perhaps the defunct services should be pulled from the
code. Has anybody confirmed the AAC issue?
I don't have any AAC files. But the internet radio stuff is definitly a papercut
"bug". Bat then there are alo corners in the wiki and help files that point to
sites long gone (should be replaced by local copies or archive.org) - if somebody finds
the time to do so.
Personal thoughts:
Commenters offered points about interface design and usability
requirements for why TDE remains a valid option.
Some of the article issues seem reasonable, but mostly I am reminded
that articles with these kinds of titles are written and published for
click-bait value. Rather than a muckraking article, this article could
have been written with a perspective and title of "Trinity Continues the
KDE 3 Spirit and Design." These types of articles are not what I expect
from lwn.net.
"shiny KDE6" vs "retro desktop". He does not like it. And he comes
from a windows background, where there's no border between desktop and OS.
Nik
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Web mail archive available at
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--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
4:05 p.m.
On 5/31/24 2:05 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
"shiny KDE6" vs "retro desktop".
He does not like it. And he comes from a windows background, where there's no border
between desktop and OS.
The author, Joe Brockmeier, has been around free/libre circles for a
couple of decades. Search for articles written by him from long ago. I
think he also once was a community coordinator, I think for Suse.
5:01 p.m.
Anno domini 2024 Fri, 31 May 11:05:53 -0500
Darrell Anderson via tde-users scripsit:
On 5/31/24 2:05 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users
wrote:
You know that SuSE was once called "The Nürnberger Windows" ? IIRC he's now
at RedHat - https://www.redhat.com/en/authors/joe-brockmeier - and his job is to sell
GUIs. I don't consider RedHat as anything but a company.
Nik
"shiny KDE6" vs "retro
desktop". He does not like it. And he comes from a windows background, where
there's no border between desktop and OS.
The author, Joe Brockmeier, has been around free/libre circles for a
couple of decades. Search for articles written by him from long ago. I
think he also once was a community coordinator, I think for Suse. ____________________________________________________
tde-users mailing list -- users(a)trinitydesktop.org
To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org
Web mail archive available at
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt…
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
5:36 p.m.
On 5/31/24 12:01 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
My point for replying was he does not come from a Windows background and
he is familiar with free/libre culture.
I agree with somebody else who posted the author should have done some
fact checking and verifying before posting. Which is why I mentioned in
my original post I thought the quality of the article was below the
standards of lwn.net. Usually the fact-checking standards at lwn.net are
high. I think the article is below Brockmeier's standards too as he has
been writing online for many years. If the link is current and he is an
employee at RedHat, then I am further disappointed by the theme of the
article.
I'm not getting into a poop throwing contest about his job or who he is
as a person. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but that
he and the lwn.net editor simply screwed up with this article.
On 5/31/24
2:05 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
You know that SuSE was once called "The Nürnberger Windows" ? IIRC he's now
at RedHat - https://www.redhat.com/en/authors/joe-brockmeier - and his job is to sell
GUIs. I don't consider RedHat as anything but a company. "shiny KDE6" vs "retro
desktop". He does not like it. And he comes from a windows background, where
there's no border between desktop and OS.
The author, Joe Brockmeier, has been around free/libre circles for a
couple of decades. Search for articles written by him from long ago. I
think he also once was a community coordinator, I think for Suse. 
1 Jun
1 Jun
5:49 p.m.
Okay I've read the article and my thoughts are:
As you know, as I've said it before, I was a HUGE fan of KDE 3 back in the
day.
I like that the pace of TDE is SLOW, and that updates and major changes are
SLOW.
I like that the UI doesn't change very much. Ya'll would laugh at me, but in
Q4OS, I have my theme set to " Windows 7 Classic" theme. I had really been
missing the classic theme that was ripped out WINDERPS 10 without Microcrap
asking if people still used that theme or not. I, for one did.
I have my task bar like Windows 7, none of that stacking windows like the TDE
theme does, like in the picture in the article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Desktop_Environment_3#/media/File:Kde_3_3_s…
Every open window button is side by side.
https://imgur.com/a/NI243Zz
I kept getting stuff mixed up, like thinking I had closed KMAIL and NOPE, it
was still open on the task bar. I was use to open windows being side by side
on the task bar, like it was in MATE, and not stacked like in KDE3.
See the link above.
============================================================
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS(a)CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
5:37 p.m.
I read the article and comments.
What does "CADT" mean, and why is it a "slur"?
I can't find anything on Google to tell me what the heck it means.
I've never heard that acronym before!
============================================================
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS(a)CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
6:10 p.m.
On 6/1/24 12:37 PM, Chris M via tde-users wrote:
What does "CADT" mean, and why is it a
"slur"?
I can't find anything on Google to tell me what the heck it means.
I've never heard that acronym before!
https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
7:19 p.m.
On Saturday 01 June 2024 01:10:52 pm Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
On 6/1/24 12:37 PM, Chris M via tde-users wrote:
:O HEYYYYYYYYY!
I've had ADD / ADHD since I was 6 in 1989.
But really, its not a slur, per se... If it is, I don't see how?
Thanks for helping me solve the mystery lol. Now I know.
============================================================
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS(a)CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
What does "CADT" mean, and why is it a
"slur"?
I can't find anything on Google to tell me what the heck it means.
I've never heard that acronym before!
https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
8:27 p.m.
Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
sounds like dumb and dumber tries to do things better, but never succeed.
I wonder that it was observed already in 2003. I started paying attention to
the symptoms around 2010. ATM it is epidemic and going to get worse in
future.
I've never
heard that acronym before!
https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
31 May
31 May
8:54 a.m.
Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
Some of the article issues seem reasonable, but mostly
I am reminded
that articles with these kinds of titles are written and published for
click-bait value. Rather than a muckraking article, this article could
have been written with a perspective and title of "Trinity Continues the
KDE 3 Spirit and Design." These types of articles are not what I expect
from lwn.net.
For me it is obvious that the writer never understood, why TDE was initiated
and why people still use it. Obviously the factor how shiny something is,
is more important than how stable something is. But hey this mentality is
spilled all over the place and it sucks. There is no way to argue, because
the people carring this mentality are usually uneducated and uncultured.
They write for same highly uneducated and uncultured readers. It is becoming
a religion. And so
Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it
will be opened to you.
TDE is open for those who seek the truth.
I am using one 13". I use it with 1920x1080 resolution. Why should I use it
with higher resolution is unclear.
Most of the time tdenetworkmanager handles the connections properly. I had
only once an issue with a network in one hotel somewhere. For some reason
it could not get the IP address properly while Windows on the same PC could
handle it. What I am missing is the option to use tdenetworkmanager to
utilize the SIM slot (internet via LTE). I have it on the todo.
So yes, TDE has limitation - may be the biggest one that it is not really
designed to run on a laptop.
It is very challenging to maintain the code, because of the lack of people
and time, although in the past few years there are many developers that
joined and there are significant improvements.
(I am writing this as an observer and not officially approved to make
statements in the name of TDE)
I joined the team because I do not have too much money to infest in
supporting the project, but I have allocated some hours per year to do this
or that for the project. I wish I had more to offer.
BR
9:01 a.m.
On Friday 31 May 2024 10.54:55 deloptes via tde-users wrote:
the people carring this mentality are usually
uneducated and
uncultured.
I don't know if (and I am not sure that) they are uneducated and uncultured
(at least in the broader meaning) but they are looking for what we don't want
and they don't want what we are looking for.
Basically, as TDE is not a commercial venture, we don't care.
However, it also means that as far as the project needs money, we'll have to
pay for it.
As far as I am concerned it's OK.
Thierry
9:12 a.m.
Thierry de Coulon via tde-users wrote:
I don't know if (and I am not sure that) they are
uneducated and
uncultured (at least in the broader meaning) but they are looking for what
we don't want and they don't want what we are looking for.
Uneducated, because they obviously do not know the history behind and
uncultured, because they do not contact anybody before posting the crap
Recently I like this combination to point to a woke person that lives in a
bubble.
Basically, as TDE is not a commercial venture, we
don't care.
Exactly
However, it also means that as far as the project
needs money, we'll have
to pay for it.
As far as I am concerned it's OK.
Yes, I think so as well. The sad thing is that there are a lot of things to
be improved, but there is not enough man power.
I tried to participate to the regular meetings of the devs, but it was not
possible for time reasons. I know though that they are coordinating their
actions in regular meetings, so I am sure the project is in good hands.
9:49 a.m.
On Fri May 31 2024 02:12:56 deloptes via tde-users wrote:
uncultured, because they do not contact anybody before
posting the crap
This was indeed unacceptable.
A real journalist would have contact Slávek for comment on the draft
article. The journalist might or might not have accepted Slávek's
corrections but at least they would have tried.
This could have, for example, avoided the obvious error of saying that
TDE R14.1.2 "drops support for several distributions that are at
end-of-life" when he intended to say "releases", not
"distributions".
On the plus side, there was - by the standards of the LWN community -
a good discussion of TDE in the comments. Compare this to the
announcement of the Manjaro 24.0 release at about the same time which
attracted zero LWN comments.
11:45 a.m.
Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
In my favorites recently the site quora.com is "rising". It comes very often
on top of google searches and it is such a BS that I wonder how and where
they are getting all the information.
One can not say that it does not have factual background, but it is rather
interpretation of facts instead the facts themselves.
So ... welcome to a new world, where facts can be fabricated, influenced,
tweaked and abused as one likes it.
I bet the big corps will use these site to train the AI, so that we have
authority that "knows".
But apart of this side note, can you sum up and put forward what can be
improved. We could ask TDE to comment on prioritizing work in the future.
From my side I asked already about DBus. I was actually learning and working
on it in the past few years and had good understanding and achievements. We
fixed and polished the dbus-1-tqt and especially the generation of code out
of the xml that is now usable for implementing synchronous and asynchronous
interfaces for services and clients.
As DBus is now defacto standard, I think TDE needs better integration or
even replacement of the dcop functionality with dbus, which is gigantic
work. I think a decision is needed where TDE wants to be in the future and
how it will get there.
uncultured,
because they do not contact anybody before posting the crap
This was indeed unacceptable.
5:42 p.m.
On Friday 31 May 2024 02:12:56 deloptes via tde-users wrote:
Uneducated, because they obviously do not know the
history behind and
uncultured, because they do not contact anybody before posting the crap
Recently I like this combination to point to a woke person that lives in a
bubble.
Some people get it, others don't. Those others who don't get it will tend to
believe in reviews, and moreover want to be dazzled by the very latest,
brightest and shiniest new things.
The notion that anybody could prefer a desktop that simply works, is usable,
and which allows users virtually total control over their own machines ...
Why, this sounds like some kind of oldthink, an absurd fantasy covered in
spider-webs and nostalgia.
I used to worry about whether our users and developers can keep TDE alive, and
anybody else who has been running Trinity long enough has suffered through
previous bad reviews and botched hit jobs. And I used to worry about Trinity
getting installed in /opt/ and other seeming irregularities. Yet, 12 years
later, TDE is still here, and I am still running TDE.
Every few years, a review like this comes out, and some people get agitated
and worried, and say that something must be done: that we are slipping
behind; or that TDE doesn't come bundled with any of the major distros as one
of the default choices for desktop; or that we need more public visibility,
to have a presence on this or that social media platform.
Yet, against all odds, TDE is still here, and is doing better than ever.
If I had paid attention to those negative reviews over the years, then I
probably wouldn't be running TDE today. Just because somebody can write a
review, it doesn't mean that what they say is actually real or true.
Bill
Basically, as TDE is not a commercial venture, we
don't care.
Exactly
However, it also means that as far as the project
needs money, we'll have
to pay for it.
As far as I am concerned it's OK.
Yes, I think so as well. The sad thing is that there are a lot of things to
be improved, but there is not enough man power.
I tried to participate to the regular meetings of the devs, but it was not
possible for time reasons. I know though that they are coordinating their
actions in regular meetings, so I am sure the project is in good hands.
9:22 p.m.
On 5/31/24 12:42 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
If I had paid attention to those negative reviews over
the years, then I
probably wouldn't be running TDE today. Just because somebody can write a
review, it doesn't mean that what they say is actually real or true.
With some after thought, I am inclined to think that despite a poorly
written click-bait article, the alleged problems cited in the article
seems to speak well of TDE. The shtick about Amarok is revealing --
chickens scratching only to find something bad to say.
My respect for lwn.net and the author dropped a few notches. I expect
better from both.
Curious the author chose TDE to write such a negative review. Many
people could find several less-than-optimal features in every DE and
write a similar article.
We return to our regularly scheduled broadcast.
12:51 p.m.
On 5/31/24 05:02, Thierry de Coulon via tde-users wrote:
On Friday 31 May 2024 10.54:55 deloptes via tde-users
wrote:
While refusing to accept monetary support from the users. Including me a
decade back. There is an armbian project that I and apparently many
others contribute various amounts per month, my contribution is an
un-noticable $25/month. I joined that because most of my 3d printers run
some version of it and the support level has multiplied several times in
recent history. You would likely do well by adopting their recipe to pay
the bills. It seems to be working well. The lack of co-operation from
the pi foundation is obvious, and the stability is becoming legendary.
Better than pios these days.
the people carring this mentality are usually
uneducated and
uncultured.
I don't know if (and I am not sure that) they are uneducated and uncultured
(at least in the broader meaning) but they are looking for what we don't want
and they don't want what we are looking for.
Basically, as TDE is not a commercial venture, we don't care.
However, it also means that as far as the project needs money, we'll have to
pay for it.
As far as I am concerned it's OK.
Thierry
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Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
1:08 p.m.
gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
While refusing to accept monetary support from the
users. Including me a
decade back. There is an armbian project that I and apparently many
others contribute various amounts per month, my contribution is an
un-noticable $25/month. I joined that because most of my 3d printers run
some version of it and the support level has multiplied several times in
recent history. You would likely do well by adopting their recipe to pay
the bills. It seems to be working well. The lack of co-operation from
the pi foundation is obvious, and the stability is becoming legendary.
Better than pios these days.
I think for TDE it is not the monetary part that much but the lack of
contributors and the scope of work. While most of the time the contributors
are occupied with keeping the system stable and catching up with the
changes in libraries that are used by TDE and recently with getting rid of
conflicting code with KDE, it seems there are no ressources to update or
implement newer things
BTW I am glad to hear from you as I no longer hang around the Debian user
list.
7:58 p.m.
On 5/31/24 10:11, deloptes via tde-users wrote:
gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
Thank you Deloptes. I don't know why I waste time with it myself, it
sure hasn't been any help to me.
While refusing to accept monetary support from
the users. Including me a
decade back. There is an armbian project that I and apparently many
others contribute various amounts per month, my contribution is an
un-noticable $25/month. I joined that because most of my 3d printers run
some version of it and the support level has multiplied several times in
recent history. You would likely do well by adopting their recipe to pay
the bills. It seems to be working well. The lack of co-operation from
the pi foundation is obvious, and the stability is becoming legendary.
Better than pios these days.
I think for TDE it is not the monetary part that much but the lack of
contributors and the scope of work. While most of the time the contributors
are occupied with keeping the system stable and catching up with the
changes in libraries that are used by TDE and recently with getting rid of
conflicting code with KDE, it seems there are no ressources to update or
implement newer things
BTW I am glad to hear from you as I no longer hang around the Debian user
list.
____________________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org
Web mail archive available at
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt…
.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
12:25 p.m.
On 5/30/24 22:55, Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
On 5/20/24 3:14 PM, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
More personal thoughts from a long time user who hasn't been able to
install on a debian system since the end of stretch. For newer versions
it has been a dependency hell there is no recovery from but a re-install
of debian. Items removed to satisfy your dependencies have included
glibc for instance. I've complained but no one seems to care, So I'm
stuck with thunderbird for email which is always broken somewhere, and
xfce4 for a desktop. A generally usable solutiom but not ideal by a long
row of apple trees.
Take care & stay well everybody.
Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI
laptop. The article is
here
but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/
Today the article became available to non subscribers. Please read
before replying. :)
Possible helpful points:
"None of the major Linux distributions have an official TDE spin or
include its packages in their official repositories...."
The Q4OS folks officially support TDE, but Q4OS probably is not
considered a major distro. Does having a "Tubuntu" spin improve
credibility? That TDE is not part of official repos does seem to raise
eyebrows when other "lesser" desktop environments such as MATE, Xfce,
Cinnamon, Budgie, LXQt, LXDE, and Enlightenment are supported
officially. Would be nice to see TDE receive more positive support
upstream, but is being included in official repos important?
"Though the Trinity web site claims compatibility with newer hardware,
it had some significant issues with a high-resolution (HiDPI) laptop
display and external monitors over Thunderbolt connections."
Outside of KDE and GNOME, a lazy web search seems to indicate none of
the other "lesser" desktop environments provide a Thunderbolt management
front-end.
"For example, on a 13" laptop display with 2256x1504 resolution, TDE's
user-interface elements were too small to use comfortably."
A 13" inch display seems small. Maybe not. In today's world where many
computer users wear eyeglasses, how many people can "comfortably" use a
13" inch display at such high resolutions? How do other desktop
environments or window managers fare in that same environment? High
resolution support probably is something that should be addressed in
TDE, but this complaint seems to be a nit pick outside an area of how
many people use computers.
"Trying to use the network settings utility pops up an "unsupported
platform" warning, and provides a list of supported distributions: the
most recent of which is from 2015. The backend for the network settings
is the knetworkconf package, a collection of Perl scripts that are far
out of date for managing networking on current Linux systems."
Fair enough. Conversely, if the scripts remain functional then should
they be labeled "far out of date"? Perhaps as long as this specific
backend exists, a tracking item should exist that the visible
distributions list is updated before release. At least provide the
illusion of being current.
"Network configuration is still possible with NetworkManager, but it
isn't integrated into TDE."
Perhaps the author was unaware of the tdenetworkmanager package. I have
not used the package and can't vouch for usability. Does the TDE package
function similarly to the KDE NetworkManager front-end or the GTK
nmcli-applet?
"Users have plenty of configuration options for mice, but no trackpad
options at all."
The lack of a trackpad/touchpad front-end seems a fair point. KDE has an
extensive configuration module for touchpads, while Xfce has a nominal
config module. Probably the other "lesser" desktop environments have
modules too. There is an active feature request (tdebase 481) about
adding TDE Control Center support features. Is this a critical issue?
"Konqueror is still a decent file manager, but it doesn't handle modern
web sites well at all."
Subjective, but Konqueror still rates as one of the finest file
managers. Using Konqueror as a web browser has been debated for years,
within KDE circles and back in the KDE 3 days. Konqueror remains part of
KDE although the underlying web engine has been updated. How well does
KDE Konqueror handle "modern web sites"?
"The Kopete instant-messaging application offers to connect users to
networks and protocols that are either dead and gone (AIM, Yahoo,
Windows WinPopup) or well out of mainstream use (Novell GroupWise, Lotus
Sametime)."
Perhaps the dead and obsolete protocols should be purged from the TDE
source code.
"Support for more recent protocols, such as Matrix instant messaging, is
not to be found."
Matrix is a relatively new kid on the block. The first official release
was 2019. KDE has an "umbrella" project called neochat. Outside of KDE,
most if not all of the current Matrix clients seem to be third-party
rather than desktop natives. Possibly a fine feather in the cap, but
should TDE developers be expected to provide a Matrix client?
"The vintage version of Amarok that is included still lists internet
radio services that are defunct, and it immediately crashes when trying
to play AAC files."
If true then perhaps the defunct services should be pulled from the
code. Has anybody confirmed the AAC issue?
Personal thoughts:
Commenters offered points about interface design and usability
requirements for why TDE remains a valid option.
Some of the article issues seem reasonable, but mostly I am reminded
that articles with these kinds of titles are written and published for
click-bait value. Rather than a muckraking article, this article could
have been written with a perspective and title of "Trinity Continues the
KDE 3 Spirit and Design." These types of articles are not what I expect
from lwn.net. ____________________________________________________
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Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
12:59 p.m.
On Fri May 31 2024 05:25:40 gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
More personal thoughts from a long time user who
hasn't been able to
install on a debian system since the end of stretch. For newer versions
it has been a dependency hell there is no recovery from but a re-install
of debian. Items removed to satisfy your dependencies have included
glibc for instance. I've complained but no one seems to care, So I'm
stuck with thunderbird for email which is always broken somewhere, and
xfce4 for a desktop. A generally usable solutiom but not ideal by a long
row of apple trees.
Hi Gene,
I have Debian running on a bunch of boxes, several of them with TDE.
If you're using standard Debian and TDE packages you're welcome to send
me your problematic /etc/apt/ and dpkg -l and I'll put them on a test box
and see if I can figure out how to get TDE running on your Debian.
But if you're using non-standard packages, or obsolete packages, or a lot
of pinning then sorry, I can't help you.
--Mike
3:20 p.m.
Mike Bird composed on 2024-05-31 05:59 (UTC-0700):
gene heskett wrote:
> More personal thoughts from a long time user who
hasn't been able to
> install on a debian system since the end of stretch. For newer versions
> it has been a dependency hell there is no recovery from but a re-install
> of debian. Items removed to satisfy your dependencies have included
> glibc for instance. I've complained but no one seems to care, So I'm
> stuck with thunderbird for email which is always broken somewhere, and
> xfce4 for a desktop. A generally usable solutiom but not ideal by a long
> row of apple trees.
I have Debian running on a bunch of boxes, several of
them with TDE.
If you're using standard Debian and TDE packages
you're welcome to send
me your problematic /etc/apt/ and dpkg -l and I'll put them on a test box
and see if I can figure out how to get TDE running on your Debian.
But if you're using non-standard packages, or
obsolete packages, or a lot
of pinning then sorry, I can't help you.
I have 21 64bit PCs running Debian amd64 and 8 32bit PCs running Debian "i386".
Each of them has at least Bullseye and Bookworm. Most still have Buster and most
have Trixie. Some still have Stretch. Every Trixie is an upgrade from Bookworm.
Every Bookworm is an upgrade from Bullseye. Last fresh installation I did may have
been Bullseye, but otherwise all Bullseyes were upgrades from Buster. Before that
is foggy, but main method of getting new versions eventually became online
upgrades, while some were clones from another PC.
TDM is sole DM, and TDE is primary DE on every last one of them to the complete
exclusion of all other DEs, except on some IceWM is also present for occasional
comparison testing.
Some have a trivial issue "Error - artsmessage; Sound server fatal error: cpu
overload, aborting". A bunch have a malformed URL popup on right or main menu
click. But, TDM works on all, and the TDE desktop, MC and Konsole run on all,
among other apps.
My first email app was Netscape 2.02 on OS/2. It was replaced by Netscape 4, still
on OS/2. Mozilla replaced it, and it morphed into SeaMonkey, which I still run
24/7, still with POP, though long ago I migrated email to openSUSE Linux & KDE3.
With each openSUSE version upgrade the question comes up whether it's time to
switch from KDE3 to TDE. So far the answer has been better to not abandon the
remaining openSUSE KDE3 user pool and kde3(a)lists.opensuse.org subscribers before
every TDE bug I reported gets closed fixed.
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata
1 Jun
1 Jun
7:32 p.m.
On Friday 31 May 2024 10:20:13 am Felix Miata via tde-users wrote:
My first email app was Netscape 2.02 on OS/2. It was
replaced by Netscape
4, still on OS/2. Mozilla replaced it, and it morphed into SeaMonkey, which
I still run 24/7, still with POP, though long ago I migrated email to
openSUSE Linux & KDE3. With each openSUSE version upgrade the question
comes up whether it's time to switch from KDE3 to TDE. So far the answer
has been better to not abandon the remaining openSUSE KDE3 user pool and
kde3(a)lists.opensuse.org subscribers before every TDE bug I reported gets
closed fixed.
Well, you have to use POP3 with an Earthlink address. You only get like 300
Megs of storage ( back when I had an Earthlink email address), unless you
upgraded to the 3 gig package for like 7.99 USD a month back then, I think?
I'm shocked that you don't run KMAIL like just about everyone else in this
group :P.
I don't think i've ran seamonkey in YEARS due to it not having any useable
extentions like the collection that Firefox and Vivaldi has.
I loved Netscape browser. I hated, and was so mad for a LONG TIME, that AOL
ended the project. After NS died, I used IE 6 for a long time on XP. And
HATED tabbed browsing when that came along, due to being use to NOT having
that ability in IE 6.0. To this day, I have Vivaldi " Open Links in a new
Window" vs tab. I have an extention installed that disables tabs, and when
you click on " Open in a new tab" or " Open in a background tab",
Vivaldi
opens the link or whatever in a new window instead.
============================================================
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS(a)CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
7:52 p.m.
On Saturday 01 June 2024 12:32:19 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
I don't think i've ran seamonkey in YEARS due
to it not having any useable
extentions like the collection that Firefox
Seamonkey is still somewhat useful. I keep it just for one website, but now
even that website hangs in limbo.
On the subject of extensions, though, practically any Mozilla browser can be
hacked to use Firefox extensions, and I use loads of them with Seamonkey ...
when I actually use Seamonkey, that is.
Bill
8:28 p.m.
On Saturday 01 June 2024 02:52:35 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On the subject of extensions, though, practically any
Mozilla browser can
be hacked to use Firefox extensions, and I use loads of them with Seamonkey
... when I actually use Seamonkey, that is.
Bill
Oh wow, I never new that.
What do you do, save the add on to the downloads folder as a .xpi or whatever
it is Firefox uses, then open up Seamonkey, go to Extentions and drag
that .xpi file to the Seamonkey extentions window to install it?
============================================================
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS(a)CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
8:51 p.m.
On Saturday 01 June 2024 13:28:17 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Saturday 01 June 2024 02:52:35 pm William Morder
via tde-users wrote:
Sort of like that, yes. I download the xpi files and save them, then install
manually. There are also some extensions called Nightly Tester Tools and Mr
Tech Toolkit which can help.
However, in the newer browsers, these hidden features (or hackable bugs) are
being disabled or blocked (changing to web extensions) so it's not quite so
easy any more, but some can still be made to work. In any case, most
extensions spy on your browsing habits to some degree, even in private
browsing mode, so it may be better to look for other ways to get what you
want.
It used to be that I could find pages online that showed how to use
about:config to make some extensions work, although I haven't done this in
awhile. In any case, as I said, just because it can be done doesn't
necessarily mean that it's a good idea. Extensions already tend to spy on
your browsing activities, and older extensions, or extensions hacked to force
compatibility, are more susceptible to security issues.
In about:config, for example, users can change settings to force
compatibility. I think it has something to do with "lowest version number" or
some lines like that. There are other setings, but if you really want to do
this, then I would suggest searching for something like
"about:config force compatibility mozilla extensions ?"
or similar, and you ought to find some pages.
Bill
On the subject of extensions, though, practically
any Mozilla browser can
be hacked to use Firefox extensions, and I use loads of them with
Seamonkey ... when I actually use Seamonkey, that is.
Bill
Oh wow, I never new that.
What do you do, save the add on to the downloads folder as a .xpi or
whatever it is Firefox uses, then open up Seamonkey, go to Extentions and
drag that .xpi file to the Seamonkey extentions window to install it?
9:14 p.m.
New subject: SeaMonkey addons (was: LWN.NET: Trinity keeps KDE 3...)
Chris M composed on 2024-06-01 15:28 (UTC-0500):
William Morder wrote:
> On the subject of extensions, though, practically
any Mozilla browser can
> be hacked to use Firefox extensions, and I use loads of them with Seamonkey
> ... when I actually use Seamonkey, that is.
Oh wow, I never new that.
What do you do, save the add on to the downloads
folder as a .xpi or whatever
it is Firefox uses, then open up Seamonkey, go to Extentions and drag
that .xpi file to the Seamonkey extentions window to install it?
http://addonconverter.fotokraina.com/compatibility/
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata
9:01 p.m.
New subject: WAS:Trinity keeps KDE 3 on life support ~~ NOW: SeaMonkey Browser and Mail Client
On Friday 31 May 2024 10:20:13 am Felix Miata via tde-users wrote:
My first email app was Netscape 2.02 on OS/2. It was replaced by Netscape
4, still on OS/2. Mozilla replaced it, and it morphed into SeaMonkey, which
I still run 24/7, still with POP, though long ago I migrated email to
openSUSE Linux & KDE3. With each openSUSE version upgrade the question
comes up whether it's time to switch from KDE3 to TDE. So far the answer
has been better to not abandon the remaining openSUSE KDE3 user pool and
kde3(a)lists.opensuse.org subscribers before every TDE bug I reported gets
closed fixed.
You peaked my curiosity and I downloaded the latest Seamonkey tar file.
Yep it still looks the same to me!
Ugh, the mail client uses .mbox format. STRIKE 3 XXX.
I've gotten so use to the MH / MAILDIR format that I would have to break my
archive folder down due to the limitations of the .mbox format.
No, its not over 4 gigs, but I'd have to break them down again back into
years. 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024. Where right now
every thing is just in the archives folder.
One thing that I HATE about KMAIL, and this drives me NUTS, is instead of
sending the email RIGHT THEN, when I hit the send button, it puts it in the
OUTBOX and then I had to add a button on the main KMAIL screen, next to the
check mail button, to where I have to open the OUTBOX and then hit the button
that says " SEND QUEUED EMAIL VIA...." and then click on my domain name. Ugh,
Too many steps.
============================================================
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS(a)CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
11:23 p.m.
New subject: WAS:Trinity keeps KDE 3 on life support ~~ NOW: SeaMonkey Browser and Mail Client
Chris M via tde-users wrote:
One thing that I HATE about KMAIL, and this drives me
NUTS, is instead of
sending the email RIGHT THEN, when I hit the send button, it puts it in
the OUTBOX and then I had to add a button on the main KMAIL screen, next
to the check mail button, to where I have to open the OUTBOX and then hit
the button that says " SEND QUEUED EMAIL VIA...." and then click on my
domain name. Ugh, Too many steps.
Do you mean TDE kmail? because it is sending the mails automatically if you
wish. I forgot already how the config panels are called in english, but
there you can choose the way outgoing mail is handled. There is an option
to send automatically.
11:39 p.m.
New subject: WAS:Trinity keeps KDE 3 on life support ~~ NOW: SeaMonkey Browser and Mail Client
On Saturday 01 June 2024 06:23:39 pm deloptes via tde-users wrote:
Chris M via tde-users wrote:
Yes, and is this what you're talking about?
https://imgur.com/a/Lmek2UI
============================================================
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS(a)CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
One thing that I HATE about KMAIL, and this
drives me NUTS, is instead of
sending the email RIGHT THEN, when I hit the send button, it puts it in
the OUTBOX and then I had to add a button on the main KMAIL screen, next
to the check mail button, to where I have to open the OUTBOX and then hit
the button that says " SEND QUEUED EMAIL VIA...." and then click on my
domain name. Ugh, Too many steps.
Do you mean TDE kmail? because it is sending the mails automatically if you
wish. I forgot already how the config panels are called in english, but
there you can choose the way outgoing mail is handled. There is an option
to send automatically.
2 Jun
2 Jun
12:26 a.m.
New subject: WAS:Trinity keeps KDE 3 on life support ~~ NOW: SeaMonkey Browser and Mail Client
Chris M via tde-users wrote:
Yes, and is this what you're talking about?
https://imgur.com/a/Lmek2UI
Yes, this is what I mean. In my configuration (I do not know when I did it -
may be around 2005) it is configured to "never ..." where it
says "send ..."
But I think to recall that local mailbox is treated differently. I use the
local mailbox as mail backup, while all the rest is going through SMTP and
IMAP. So it might be some other setting you need to automate it, but I am
not knowledgable in configuring the local. Perhaps you need your local exim
or postfix to know about it and pick it up as soon as it gets there.
1:15 a.m.
New subject: WAS:Trinity keeps KDE 3 on life support ~~ NOW: SeaMonkey Browser and Mail Client
deloptes via tde-users wrote:
Chris M via tde-users wrote:
It turns out what I was doing was:
When I went to hit SEND, I was LONG PRESSING On the send button which
like delays the sending of the email.
If I just click it real fast, the email automatically sends.
Right now, I am trying out Felix's SeaMonkey client. It's pretty neat!
But, using SeaMonkey browser, as my main browser, that's prob NOT going
to happen, because BITWARDEN is NOT compatible with SeaMonkey. :( Bummer.
============================================================
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS(a)CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
Yes, and is this what you're talking about?
https://imgur.com/a/Lmek2UI
Yes, this is what I mean. In my configuration (I do
not know when I did it -
may be around 2005) it is configured to "never ..." where it
says "send ..."
But I think to recall that local mailbox is treated differently. I use the
local mailbox as mail backup, while all the rest is going through SMTP and
IMAP. So it might be some other setting you need to automate it, but I am
not knowledgable in configuring the local. Perhaps you need your local exim
or postfix to know about it and pick it up as soon as it gets there.
31 May
31 May
7:56 p.m.
On 5/31/24 09:53, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
On Fri May 31 2024 05:25:40 gene heskett via tde-users
wrote:
There is a bookworm problem that debian can't fix. So I won't saddle you
with that, which is: Any program opening a local path to storage for any
purpose is blocked, with no error messages found anywhere as to why its
blocked. The block is of varying length ranging from a minimum of 30
seconds to maybe a minute. To say that sitting here, with no activity
for all those blocks is frustrating is an understatement. Once this
timeout has elapsed, operation is normal. Some programs, such as
digiKam, won't wait for it, so while it goes thru the motions of
importing pix from my es420 cannon, it does not actually import,
shotwell OTOH, is blocked at initial launch, but once that has elapsed,
I can turn on the camera, it automatically accesses it and everything
just works. This top of he line ASUS based system has been re-installed
something in the 40 times area because the installer can't work w/o
unplugging ALL usb stuff. IMO the installer is broken but debian
doesn't agree.
I'm hoping trixie when its offically out, will fix much of this. Uptime
suffers too, not more than 2 weeks between x freezes while switching
workspaces. That is not the end of the list but I won't bore you
further. Thanks for the offer Mike, but the bottom line is probably
that this is a frankensystem from the gitgo. My problem IOW. I insist
this is a universal operating system, like debian is so proud of
advertizing. It seems I share a house with the Murphy that wrote all
those laws.
Take care & stay well Mike.
More personal thoughts from a long time user who
hasn't been able to
install on a debian system since the end of stretch. For newer versions
it has been a dependency hell there is no recovery from but a re-install
of debian. Items removed to satisfy your dependencies have included
glibc for instance. I've complained but no one seems to care, So I'm
stuck with thunderbird for email which is always broken somewhere, and
xfce4 for a desktop. A generally usable solutiom but not ideal by a long
row of apple trees.
Hi Gene,
I have Debian running on a bunch of boxes, several of them with TDE.
If you're using standard Debian and TDE packages you're welcome to send
me your problematic /etc/apt/ and dpkg -l and I'll put them on a test box
and see if I can figure out how to get TDE running on your Debian.
But if you're using non-standard packages, or obsolete packages, or a lot
of pinning then sorry, I can't help you.
--Mike
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.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
1 Jun
1 Jun
10:06 a.m.
On Fri May 31 2024 12:56:10 gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
There is a bookworm problem that debian can't fix.
So I won't saddle you
with that, which is: Any program opening a local path to storage for any
purpose is blocked, with no error messages found anywhere as to why its
blocked. The block is of varying length ranging from a minimum of 30
seconds to maybe a minute.
Hi Gene,
You could try the following:
(1) Close whatever applications you don't need to have open.
(2) Get as close as you can to the step that causes the long delay.
(3) As root run and save the outputs of "ps fax" and "lsof -n".
(4) Do the thing that starts the long delay.
(5) Repeat step 3.
(6) Compare the files from steps 3 and 5.
This might give a clue as to what is doing the delaying.
--Mike
7:34 p.m.
On 6/1/24 06:09, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
On Fri May 31 2024 12:56:10 gene heskett via tde-users
wrote:
lsof -n is 219k lines ack wc -l.. I should reboot and not restart my
network.
There is a bookworm problem that debian can't
fix. So I won't saddle you
with that, which is: Any program opening a local path to storage for any
purpose is blocked, with no error messages found anywhere as to why its
blocked. The block is of varying length ranging from a minimum of 30
seconds to maybe a minute.
Hi Gene,
You could try the following:
(1) Close whatever applications you don't need to have open.
(2) Get as close as you can to the step that causes the long delay.
(3) As root run and save the outputs of "ps fax" and "lsof -n".
(4) Do the thing that starts the long delay.
Firefox is affected, and common, so I'll use that. But later.
(5) Repeat step 3.
(6) Compare the files from steps 3 and 5.
This might give a clue as to what is doing the delaying.
--Mike
Thanks Mike, I'll do that when the machine is not so busy, likely about
4 hours. Right now its watching a part build, new y transport plates for
a tronxy-400, out of PETG, replacing about a pound of steel with lighter
weight stuffs. The PETG is for test fitting, the final will be made from
PC. I found a way to do PC on an XMax3 which is about 60C short of a hot
enough bed for PC.
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Web mail archive available at
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.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
5 Jun
5 Jun
10:11 p.m.
On Sat June 1 2024 12:34:46 gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
<snip>
On 6/1/24 06:09, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
Don't forget step (1) above, and if possible use something simpler
than Firefox to test the problem. Firefox opens huge numbers of
files. My laptop currently has 2721777 (2.7M) files open of which
2256004 are opened by firefox.
You could try the following:
(1) Close whatever applications you don't need to have open.
(2) Get as close as you can to the step that causes the long delay.
(3) As root run and save the outputs of "ps fax" and "lsof -n".
lsof -n is 219k lines ack wc -l.. I should reboot and not restart my
network.
(4) Do the thing that starts the long delay.
Firefox is affected, and common, so I'll use that. But later. (5) Repeat
step 3.
(6) Compare the files from steps 3 and 5.
This might give a clue as to what is doing the delaying.
--Mike
Thanks Mike, I'll do that when the machine is not so busy, likely about
4 hours. 
6 Jun
6 Jun
1:33 a.m.
On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 15:11 (-0700), Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
On Sat June 1 2024 12:34:46 gene heskett via tde-users
wrote:
> On 6/1/24 06:09, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
>> You could try the following:
>> (1) Close whatever applications you don't
need to have open.
>> (2) Get as close as you can to the step that causes the long delay.
>> (3) As root run and save the outputs of "ps fax" and "lsof
-n".
> lsof -n is 219k lines ack wc -l.. I should reboot
and not restart my
> network.
>> (4) Do the thing that starts the long delay.
> Firefox is affected, and common, so I'll use
that. But later.
Don't forget step (1) above, and if possible use
something simpler
than Firefox to test the problem. Firefox opens huge numbers of
files. My laptop currently has 2721777 (2.7M) files open of which
2256004 are opened by firefox.
<snip>
Mike, how did you calculate how many files are opened by firefox? I just
added up all the entries in /proc/<pid>/fd for firefox and its children
processes and I "only" got 1881.
2256004 seems like an astonishing number. Can you clarify this?
Thanks.
Jim
2:49 a.m.
On Wed June 5 2024 18:33:35 Jim via tde-users wrote:
Mike, how did you calculate how many files are opened
by firefox? I just
added up all the entries in /proc/<pid>/fd for firefox and its children
processes and I "only" got 1881.
2256004 seems like an astonishing number. Can you clarify this?
Hi Jim,
"lsof -n | grep firefox | wc -l" includes things like memory mapped libraries.
"ps ax | grep firefox | wc -l" currently yields 78 firefox processes but
"ps -eLf | grep firefox | wc -l" yields 2319 firefox threads.
(This of course is nowhere near bulletproof but it'll do for now.)
I probably have a couple hundred tabs open, across 23 firefox windows.
--Mike
12:35 p.m.
On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 19:49 (-0700), Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
On Wed June 5 2024 18:33:35 Jim via tde-users wrote:
> Mike, how did you calculate how many files are opened by firefox? I just
> added up all the entries in /proc/<pid>/fd for firefox and its children
> processes and I "only" got 1881.
> 2256004 seems like an astonishing number. Can you
clarify this?
Hi Jim,
"lsof -n | grep firefox | wc -l" includes
things like memory mapped libraries.
"ps ax | grep firefox | wc -l" currently
yields 78 firefox processes but
"ps -eLf | grep firefox | wc -l" yields 2319 firefox threads.
(This of course is nowhere near bulletproof but
it'll do for now.)
I probably have a couple hundred tabs open, across 23
firefox windows.
Thanks Mike.
I have three different firefox profiles running, and I'd guess over 100
tabs (more than I feel like counting right now).
For lsof -n | grep firefox | wc -l I get 882961 (which is a lot more
than I would have guessed before seeing your message, but not up in the
same range as you).
(Incidentally, I see that that the above grep catches lots of lines like
Socket 621 ... /usr/lib64/firefox/libsoftokn3.so
and I wonder whether the above grep double-counts some things. But maybe
that isn't a big deal anyway.)
FYI, on my system right now ps ax | grep firefox | wc -l gives 100,
and ps -eLf | grep firefox | wc -l gives 3105.
It is interesting (to me) that you have fewer threads, and yet about 2.55
times as many files opened.
For comparison, for a chromium instance with 22 tabs lsof reports 75422
files, and for 9 (collectively) urxvt terminals (with some perl extensions)
lsof reports 732 open files. Evidently the web browser programmers are
experts at writing software that uses lots of files. ;-)
Cheers.
Jim
1:56 p.m.
Anno domini 2024 Thu, 6 Jun 09:35:21 -0300
Jim via tde-users scripsit:
On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 19:49 (-0700), Mike Bird via
tde-users wrote:
What are you guys doing with that many tabs open ???
On Wed June 5 2024 18:33:35 Jim via tde-users
wrote:
> Mike, how did you calculate how many files are opened by firefox? I just
> added up all the entries in /proc/<pid>/fd for firefox and its children
> processes and I "only" got 1881.
> 2256004 seems like an astonishing number.
Can you clarify this?
Hi Jim,
"lsof -n | grep firefox | wc -l"
includes things like memory mapped libraries.
"ps ax | grep firefox | wc -l"
currently yields 78 firefox processes but
"ps -eLf | grep firefox | wc -l" yields 2319 firefox threads.
(This of course is nowhere near bulletproof but
it'll do for now.)
I probably have a couple hundred tabs open,
across 23 firefox windows.
Thanks Mike.
I have three different firefox profiles running, and I'd guess over 100
tabs (more than I feel like counting right now).
For lsof -n | grep firefox | wc -l I get 882961 (which is a lot more
than I would have guessed before seeing your message, but not up in the
same range as you).
(Incidentally, I see that that the above grep catches lots of lines like
Socket 621 ... /usr/lib64/firefox/libsoftokn3.so
and I wonder whether the above grep double-counts some things. But maybe
that isn't a big deal anyway.)
FYI, on my system right now ps ax | grep firefox | wc -l gives 100,
and ps -eLf | grep firefox | wc -l gives 3105.
It is interesting (to me) that you have fewer threads, and yet about 2.55
times as many files opened.
For comparison, for a chromium instance with 22 tabs lsof reports 75422
files, and for 9 (collectively) urxvt terminals (with some perl extensions)
lsof reports 732 open files. Evidently the web browser programmers are
experts at writing software that uses lots of files. ;-)
Cheers.
Jim
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--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
2:36 p.m.
On Thu June 6 2024 06:56:53 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
Would love to tell you but ...
I have three
different firefox profiles running, and I'd guess over 100
tabs (more than I feel like counting right now).
What are you guys doing with that many tabs open ??? Please do not email me anything that you are not
comfortable also sharing
with the NSA, CIA ...
6:06 p.m.
Are you having this issue on only one machine? I have Debian installed on 12 vm servers,
my main laptop, and my main workstation now. I also install TDE on any machine that needs
a GUI. I have never had an issue with apps accessing local storage. I use a good few IO
intensive apps as well.
Something curious you said top of the line? Is this a brand new machine? You might need a
more recent kernel. Personally if I have a brand new machine I use a rolling distro as
Debian is a few kernel versions behind
31 May
31 May
3:03 p.m.
On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 21:52 (-0500), Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
A 13" inch display seems small. Maybe not. In
today's world where many
computer users wear eyeglasses, how many people can "comfortably" use a
13"
inch display at such high resolutions?
Is that a rhetorical question? The only problem with a high-resolution
display (I'm assuming you are specifically meaning a high-DPI display) that
I can imagine is if a user hasn't configured, or can't configure, the
display to act appropriately. I like high-DPI displays, I much prefer
looking at crisper text than fuzzily-rendered text at 96 or 100 DPI.
I'm on a laptop with a 141 DPI display. I use xrandr to set the DPI, I use
xrdb to set Xft.dpi, and after that most of the programs I use Do The Right
Thing. A couple (e.g., firefox) require me to set the environment variable
GDK_DPI_SCALE to get reasonably-sized UI elements.
I should point out that while I use a number of TDE programs, I don't use
the TDE DE (or window manager). Perhaps if I did I'd know what you are
talking about when you (seem to) indicate that high resolutions are
problematic. Assuming that you are claiming high-DPI displays are a
problem, can you enlighten me as to what problem they give you?
Cheers.
Jim
1 Jun
1 Jun
7:34 p.m.
On Friday 31 May 2024 10:03:55 am Jim via tde-users wrote:
I should point out that while I use a number of TDE
programs, I don't use
the TDE DE (or window manager).
Huh? How do you use TDE app's without using TDE itself?
============================================================
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS(a)CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
9:08 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 14:34 (-0500), Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Friday 31 May 2024 10:03:55 am Jim via tde-users
wrote:
> I should point out that while I use a number of TDE programs, I don't use
> the TDE DE (or window manager).
Huh? How do you use TDE app's without using TDE
itself?
?
I'm not sure why you think that is hard. For example, in a terminal window
I could enter the command
ksnapshot
and the ksnapshot program will start up, allowing me to grab screenshots.
Does that help?
Jim
9:49 p.m.
On Saturday 01 June 2024 04:08:05 pm Jim via tde-users wrote:
I'm not sure why you think that is hard. For example, in a terminal window
I could enter the command
ksnapshot
and the ksnapshot program will start up, allowing me to grab screenshots.
Does that help?
Jim
Yes, but I was just trying to imagine what DE you use with TDE apps?
Dated, and old looking, XFCE?
I CAN'T for the LIFE OF ME use XFCE... It just looks old, dated, and crusty
and out of the 80's. I've tried and tried and tried to use it, but after a
day NOPE, next day NUKE and PAVE.
============================================================
THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS(a)CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
11:18 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 16:49 (-0500), Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Saturday 01 June 2024 04:08:05 pm Jim via tde-users
wrote:
> I'm not sure why you think that is hard. For
example, in a terminal window
> I could enter the command
> ksnapshot
> and the ksnapshot program will start up, allowing me to grab screenshots.
> Does that help?
> Jim
Yes, but I was just trying to imagine what DE you use
with TDE apps?
Dated, and old looking, XFCE?
I CAN'T for the LIFE OF ME use XFCE... It just
looks old, dated, and crusty
and out of the 80's. I've tried and tried and tried to use it, but after a
day NOPE, next day NUKE and PAVE.
I think xfce was started in the late 1990's; I'm really wondering what
about it makes you think is from the 1980s.
I've only used xfce a little bit, so I'm not sure what your issue is.
Anyway, if xfce causes you distress, I'm worried when I tell you what I
use, your head will explode.
I use fvwm3, because I have yet to find a window manager anywhere near as
customizable as it is. (But before you say anything, keep i mind that this
customizability allows you great latitude in how it looks, so while you
probably wouldn't like my config, there are other vastly different configs
which appeal to different tastes.)
Cheers.
Jim
198
days inactive
215
days old
73 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
Chris M -
Chris M
-
Chris M -
Chris M -
Darrell Anderson -
deloptes -
dep -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
Felix Miata -
gene heskett -
J Leslie Turriff -
jacobheinrich＠hotmail.com -
Jim -
Mike Bird -
Thierry de Coulon -
William Morder