Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI laptop. The article is here but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/
The discussion is visible in LWN's RSS feed. Thus far I see two short threads:
https://lwn.net/Articles/974365/ https://lwn.net/Articles/974381/
Maybe TDE devs can add some useful info to the latter thread.
On 5/20/24 3:14 PM, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI laptop. The article is here but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/The discussion is visible in LWN's RSS feed. Thus far I see two short threads:
https://lwn.net/Articles/974365/ https://lwn.net/Articles/974381/Maybe TDE devs can add some useful info to the latter thread.
Sometimes LWN subscribers can make the article public before the two-week period expires. Until then we'll have to wait to see what the author actually wrote.
My wild guess is Joe Brockmeier, newly hired at LWN, is the author. Joe has been around free/libre circles for a few decades.
The title of the article, "Trinity keeps KDE 3 on life support" is off putting. This is something I inferred in a previous post that because TDE is not "new" or "shiny" that people should disregard all efforts. What I find puzzling is people do not use the same condescending verbiage when referring to MATE -- a fork of GNOME 2, or Xfce, a desktop environment with very slow development cycles. Many people do not use that kind of verbiage when referring to various window managers that have been around since the 1990s. So why the useless jabs at TDE? This type of cynicism has been ongoing since the original KDE 3 fork.
Perhaps the TDE documentation and wiki should be reviewed to minimize any mention of being a fork. Just focus on TDE being its own software?
But this is the way many people think. Not new or shiny -- "Meh."
Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
Perhaps the TDE documentation and wiki should be reviewed to minimize any mention of being a fork. Just focus on TDE being its own software?
but this is not factually correct as it is a fork.
But this is the way many people think. Not new or shiny -- "Meh."
This is exactly right. I found there are two type of people: smart and dumb. Why bothering with the latter? This fact can not be changed. The smart one would use older tool to accomplish a task, because the tool works well. The latter category would try to use something that would brake while solving the task only because it is shiny. The problem is that the "Meh" is creating a bad publicity for TDE, but so be it. The truth is always shy. I guess those people (at least this is my experience with such people) always try something new in the hope this will be the one that works perfectly well ... then there comes the "Meh" and they move to the next one and the next one and the next one.
On 5/20/24 5:04 PM, deloptes via tde-users wrote:
but this is not factually correct as it is a fork.
I did not mean to deny the fork, only to not emphasize. :) Such as with press releases.
My idea is eluding click-bait authors into not emphasizing the original fork. They seldom do that with MATE. MATE is treated as standing on its own. TDE is still treated like the proverbial red-headed step child.
I am hardly surprised when these authors rant about perceived missing features and then dismiss the entire project. After all, look at the author's profile byline and notice the "I am cool because I wear sunglasses" picture. My sunglasses mean I am smart and you're not. Something about baby and bath water or letting perfect being the enemy of good. Still the same argument -- not shiny -- meh.
Sometimes I like being a grumpy old man. :)
said deloptes via tde-users:
| The problem is that the "Meh" is creating a bad publicity for TDE, but | so be it. The truth is always shy. I guess those people (at least this | is my experience with such people) always try something new in the hope | this will be the one that works perfectly well ... then there comes the | "Meh" and they move to the next one and the next one and the next one.
It's an example I always use, but it's exemplary: put the current KDE and the current TDE on identical computers. Ask any user to add an application to Kicker (or whatever they call it on blood-without-the-good-stuff). When they fail, drag an application from KMenu to Kicker. Then jump through the hoops you have to jump through with Plasma. And point out that in the latter there is *no* good reason for the added complication. No benefit at all. None.
Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
The discussion is visible in LWN's RSS feed. Thus far I see two short threads:
https://lwn.net/Articles/974365/ https://lwn.net/Articles/974381/
Maybe TDE devs can add some useful info to the latter thread.
I am using TDE via Thunderbolt, but my external display is 1980x1040, so I can not speak about higher resolutions. The notebook I use TDE has 13.3" 1920 x 1080 Anti-Glare IPS Display. It works just fine over Thunderbolt.
It seems some use cases are being discussed in the article or discussion, but there are no details on those use cases. For example I recently converted one machine to Proxmox and migrated all of my VMs there. Now, when I run a TDE desktop and use the NoVNC web console I have absolutely no issue with rendering speed. It feels like working on the local machine.
On 5/20/24 3:14 PM, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI laptop. The article is here but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/The discussion is visible in LWN's RSS feed. Thus far I see two short threads:
https://lwn.net/Articles/974365/ https://lwn.net/Articles/974381/Maybe TDE devs can add some useful info to the latter thread.
I should add that most people do not use such condescending verbiage when talking about people who restore furniture or vintage cars. Seems this attitude prevails too much with software development.
There is no "life support" involved. There is only people developing and using software because they want to. Crazy concept that people should do what they want and enjoy life rather than follow lemmings.
Not to mention keeping functional computers out of landfills.
Sorry, just another grumpy old man moment shaking fists at clouds.
On Monday 20 May 2024 15:43:03 Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
On 5/20/24 3:14 PM, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote: I should add that most people do not use such condescending verbiage when talking about people who restore furniture or vintage cars. Seems this attitude prevails too much with software development.
There is no "life support" involved. There is only people developing and using software because they want to. Crazy concept that people should do what they want and enjoy life rather than follow lemmings.
Not to mention keeping functional computers out of landfills.
Sorry, just another grumpy old man moment shaking fists at clouds.
I propose to divide all computer stuff (both hardware and software) into just two categories:
SUCKS & DOESN'T SUCK
But to stick with our desktop question:
sucks ------ KDE/4/5/6 Gnome etc.
sucks less ------------ MATE LXDE etc.
doesn't suck at all ---------------------- TDE can't think of any others
The categories are inspired by deloptes' earlier comment, two kinds of people, smart and dumb.
By the way, there are only two kinds of anything, really, when you think about it, good or bad: good music or bad music, good food or bad food, good beer or bad beer ...
Everything else is just a matter of degree, exactly how good or how bad.
Bill
On Monday 20 May 2024 06:32:31 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
But to stick with our desktop question:
sucks
KDE/4/5/6 Gnome XFCE <~~~~ I AM ADDING THIS ONE lol. #NOTsorry.
LXQT <~~~~ I AM ADDING THIS ONE TOO, due to they killed off LXDE. I loved
LXDE too.
sucks less
LXDE etc.
doesn't suck at all
TDE MATE <~~~~ NOPE, MATE SHOULD BE HERE. :D I LOVE MATE.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Chris
OFF LIST: CM030@YAHOO.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
On Monday 20 May 2024 17:12:37 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 20 May 2024 06:32:31 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
TDE MATE <~~~~ NOPE, MATE SHOULD BE HERE. :D I LOVE MATE.
-------------------------- Thanks, Chris
Well, to me MATE is tolerable, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that I love it. For me, there are only two for which I might use the L word, and that is KDE3.5 and TDE.
Bill
Anno domini 2024 Mon, 20 May 17:56:47 -0700 William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Monday 20 May 2024 17:12:37 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 20 May 2024 06:32:31 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
TDE MATE <~~~~ NOPE, MATE SHOULD BE HERE. :D I LOVE MATE.
-------------------------- Thanks, Chris
Well, to me MATE is tolerable, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that I love it. For me, there are only two for which I might use the L word, and that is KDE3.5 and TDE.
:) I'd add FVWM to this list. Not a DE but a programmable WM. Once upon a time when KDE3's future was not clear I remodeled most parts of KDE3 in fvwm - not the applications, but enough of the rest to keep a KDE feeling without KDE.
What really pisses me nowadays is that most applications using QT5/QT6/GTK3 cannot handle HDPI displays at all. And the color presets - even for dark mode - try to rebuild the user experience on shaby first generation TFTs with 1:100 contrast ratio. Just a PITA to get these color schemes to actually use good contrast. And the fonts ... who teaches devopers to make pick the smallest, contrast-less fonts possible and don't let the user escape that hell? Thin pastel fonts on gray backgroud, really?
Nik
Bill
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On 2024-05-21 01:56:12 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
Anno domini 2024 Mon, 20 May 17:56:47 -0700
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Monday 20 May 2024 17:12:37 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 20 May 2024 06:32:31 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
TDE MATE <~~~~ NOPE, MATE SHOULD BE HERE. :D I LOVE MATE.
---- -------------------------- Thanks, Chris
Well, to me MATE is tolerable, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that I love it. For me, there are only two for which I might use the L word, and that is KDE3.5 and TDE.
:) I'd add FVWM to this list. Not a DE but a programmable WM. Once upon a : time when KDE3's future was not clear I remodeled most parts of KDE3 in : fvwm - not the applications, but enough of the rest to keep a KDE feeling : without KDE.
What really pisses me nowadays is that most applications using QT5/QT6/GTK3 cannot handle HDPI displays at all. And the color presets - even for dark mode - try to rebuild the user experience on shaby first generation TFTs with 1:100 contrast ratio. Just a PITA to get these color schemes to actually use good contrast. And the fonts ... who teaches devopers to make pick the smallest, contrast-less fonts possible and don't let the user escape that hell? Thin pastel fonts on gray backgroud, really?
Nik
Bill
And why are default fonts always Sans-Serif? (Not sure who started this, but I suspect MacroShaft.) I suppose it's more of the "dumb down the user interface" nonsense that Gnome et al promulgated.* There are too many easily confused glyphs in Sans-Serif fonts. Thank goodness that in the control center I can set all of the non-monospace fonts at once!
Leslie
* And while Gnome has done that, they and KDE4+ have gone to extremes to make it difficult to configure their DEs by scattering settings all over the place, and Mozilla seems to want to thwart their users' desire to make their applications user-friendly by hiding most settings in about:config and providing no documentation at all. :-( -- Platform: Linux Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.5 - x86_64 Desktop Environment: Trinity Qt: 3.5.0 TDE: R14.1.2 tde-config: 1.0
On 5/21/24 2:16 AM, J Leslie Turriff via tde-users wrote:
And why are default fonts always Sans-Serif? (Not sure who started this, but I suspect MacroShaft.) I suppose it's more of the "dumb down the user interface" nonsense that Gnome et al promulgated.* There are too many easily confused glyphs in Sans-Serif fonts. Thank goodness that in the control center I can set all of the non-monospace fonts at once!
I worked as a tech writer for many years. Back in the day before computers, a general rule of thumb was Sans Serif Bold for headings and serif for content text. There were always artistic exceptions but often that was a starting point. This general perspective still prevails with computer text as seen in KDE/TDE Handbooks.
The roots of typography go far back, before computer companies existed. Newspaper and magazine editors had notable influence on typography. The common Times and Times New Roman font was created for newspapers, where the content was in narrow columns. Serif fonts helped people read and browse the columns faster. Studies have shown that most people do not actually read word-for-word, but skim through words and serif fonts help with that.
Regional and cultural differences played a role. All those little jots and tittles and diacritics.
Before computers there were typewriters. About the only way to change emphasis was underlining. The IBM Selectric more or less revolutionized office typing with the removable typeface balls and eraser ribbons.
Typography has been continually evolving since the first days of movable type.
Through this evolution there have been popular style guides such as the Chicago Manual of Style, AP style guide, etc., all still around.
When computers became popular, some early usability studies found Sans Serif usually more readable on screen than Serif. A notable difference with computer screens, and with human eyes, is print is based on reflected light and screens on emitted light. Human eyes are not well adapted to viewing emitted light and too many people these days succumb to eyeglasses.
Another change with computers was jargon. For decades the common user and technical guide had a one-page preface explaining what the different typefaces represented.
Microsoft was one of the first computer companies to contribute to some consistency with computer typography and style with their Manual of Style for Technical Publications. I still have my copy ((c) 1995) on my desk and the original copy is online. Regardless of opinions about Windows through the years, the Windows Help interface was consistent and helped many people. Cottage industries appeared developing software devoted to creating Windows Help dialogs.
This is something the original Unix and KDE folks got right with man pages and Docbook standard handbooks. Regardless of content, there is at least a high degree of consistency with how these software documents look.
As a former tech writer, software Help remains something that annoys the Hell out of me. Most developers nowadays do not embed help into their software. Instead they presume everybody is connected 24/7 and link all Help to online web sites. Not connected? Too bad for you -- no help is available.
On 2024-05-21 12:12:18 Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
When computers became popular, some early usability studies found Sans Serif usually more readable on screen than Serif. A notable difference with computer screens, and with human eyes, is print is based on reflected light and screens on emitted light. Human eyes are not well adapted to viewing emitted light and too many people these days succumb to eyeglasses.
I believe that part of that was due to the nature of low-resolution bitmapped fonts. Now we have higher resolutions and anti-aliasing, but inertia has led us to continue with fonts that are IMO suboptimal.
Leslie -- Platform: Linux Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.5 - x86_64 Desktop Environment: Trinity Qt: 3.5.0 TDE: R14.1.2 tde-config: 1.0
said J Leslie Turriff via tde-users:
| And why are default fonts always Sans-Serif? (Not sure who started | this, but I suspect MacroShaft.) I suppose it's more of the "dumb down | the user interface" nonsense that Gnome et al promulgated.* There are | too many easily confused glyphs in Sans-Serif fonts. Thank goodness | that in the control center I can set all of the non-monospace fonts at | once!
The defaults are not annoying if they're easy to change, which they are in TDE and aren't much of anyplace else. Also, when you make changes in TDE, they stick. One of the irritations I found in whatever the Plasma-derivative thing PiOS uses is that the system lets individual applications undo the settings. On KDE and then TDE I've kept the same settings for *decades.* And Netscape, later Opera, later Mozilla has not been able to break them. (KDE-1.x icons, too, until there were just too many things that didn't exist in the KDE-1.x era!)
On 5/21/24 1:56 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
What really pisses me nowadays is that most applications using QT5/QT6/GTK3 cannot handle HDPI displays at all. And the color presets - even for dark mode - try to rebuild the user experience on shaby first generation TFTs with 1:100 contrast ratio. Just a PITA to get these color schemes to actually use good contrast. And the fonts ... who teaches devopers to make pick the smallest, contrast-less fonts possible and don't let the user escape that hell? Thin pastel fonts on gray backgroud, really?
I think this derives from a couple of places: 1) smart phones and tablets, and 2) developers using monitors bigger than most TVs. Either way developers lose any sense of proportion or usability.
I have been complaining about small fonts for about 20 years, especially web sites. Now that I am old and grumpy, small fonts are poison for folks like me.
Those developers with big monitors likely test only for big monitors and smart phones. Often they do not seem to test for anything in between such as laptops and modest home systems.
I struggle with this in the house network. TV is 37" 1920x1080, office desktop is 22" 1920x1080, laptop 1 is 15" 1920x1080, laptop 2 is 14" 1280x800. Testing systems include 19" 1680x1050, 21" 1600x900 monitor, 17" 1280x1024, and 15" 1024x768.
Back in the day of 4:3 aspect ratios, there was not much choice and video cards were designed for that. Nowadays monitor sizes and resolutions are all over the place. I don't think developers and engineers have really caught up.
Darrell Anderson composed on 2024-05-21 11:34 (UTC-0500):
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
who teaches devopers to make pick the smallest, contrast-less fonts possible and don't let the user escape that hell? Thin pastel fonts on gray backgroud, really?
I think this derives from a couple of places: 1) smart phones and tablets, and 2) developers using monitors bigger than most TVs. Either way developers lose any sense of proportion or usability.
Smart phones may have bloated the problem, but they certainly are not the derivation, as the problem dates back to well before the web arrived on mobile phones.
I have been complaining about small fonts for about 20 years, especially web sites. Now that I am old and grumpy, small fonts are poison for folks like me.
me2
Those developers with big monitors likely test only for big monitors and smart phones. Often they do not seem to test for anything in between such as laptops and modest home systems.
It's not just developers using big monitors, but also who as a group website developers are - mainly relative youngsters with good eyesight. In general, people with poor eyesight don't get into any business involving constant or extensive PC use, but more like quite the opposite. They're mostly naive youngsters or relative youngsters who don't have any clue about the trouble they cause force-feeding mousetype and demi-weight fonts. At least, they don't until they've been at it a while, and learn that testing is inadequate unless also using environments less like those they themselves use for their daily work.
I struggle with this in the house network. TV is 37" 1920x1080, office desktop is 22" 1920x1080, laptop 1 is 15" 1920x1080, laptop 2 is 14" 1280x800. Testing systems include 19" 1680x1050, 21" 1600x900 monitor, 17" 1280x1024, and 15" 1024x768.
55" 3840x2160 LR TV; 24" 1920x1200 main display; 27" 2560x1440, 24" 1920x1200, 22" 1680x1050 X3, 31.5" 1920x1080 (TV) displays for secondary PC and test PCs continuously at ready (6 total always on desk); 14" 1280x800 laptops; 20" 1600x900 X2, 19" 1440x900, 17" 1280x1024, 14" 1024x768 X2, any of which can be added to the six. In the guest bedroom there's a 24" 1920x1200 iMac and 43" 1920x1080 TV.
Back in the day of 4:3 aspect ratios, there was not much choice and video cards were designed for that. Nowadays monitor sizes and resolutions are all over the place. I don't think developers and engineers have really caught up.
That and their addiction to the power CSS gives them to make everything "just so" to their own liking.
On Tuesday 21 May 2024 12:35:09 pm Felix Miata via tde-users wrote:
I have been complaining about small fonts for about 20 years, especially web sites. Now that I am old and grumpy, small fonts are poison for folks like me.
me2 -- Felix
Me Third!!!!! lol.
I am "young" per se lol, I just turned 40 this year, and the first thing I do when setting up my OS is bump up the Font DPI and font sizes in my OS.
Yes, I should be wearing my glasses but, sometimes I just can't be bothered to hunt where I last laid them down at. lol. * Shrugs* :P
Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Chris
OFF LIST: CM030@JUNO.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
said Felix Miata via tde-users:
| 55" 3840x2160 LR TV; 24" 1920x1200 main display; 27" 2560x1440, 24" | 1920x1200, 22" 1680x1050 X3, 31.5" 1920x1080 (TV) displays for secondary | PC and test PCs continuously at ready (6 total always on desk); 14" | 1280x800 laptops; 20" 1600x900 X2, 19" 1440x900, 17" 1280x1024, 14" | 1024x768 X2, any of which can be added to the six. In the guest bedroom | there's a 24" 1920x1200 iMac and 43" 1920x1080 TV.
When I gave the 55-inch TV over to the RPi, the first thing I did was set it to 1920x1080 instead of 4k. Remember, DVD quality is 480p. BluRay is 720p, with some expensive and largely impractical exceptions. Going beyond that is mostly to appeal to the more money than sense, keep up with the Joneses crowd. For all but a very few purposes, and at distances of normal use, I defy anyone to find much if any difference between 1080p and 8k.
It's like digital cameras, back when the marketing was that more megapixels meant better, even though Sports Illustrated was getting those stunning covers with the 2.7-megapixel Nikon D-1 cameras.
On 2024-05-21 11:34:01 Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
On 5/21/24 1:56 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
What really pisses me nowadays is that most applications using QT5/QT6/GTK3 cannot handle HDPI displays at all. And the color presets - even for dark mode - try to rebuild the user experience on shaby first generation TFTs with 1:100 contrast ratio. Just a PITA to get these color schemes to actually use good contrast. And the fonts ... who teaches devopers to make pick the smallest, contrast-less fonts possible and don't let the user escape that hell? Thin pastel fonts on gray backgroud, really?
I think this derives from a couple of places: 1) smart phones and tablets, and 2) developers using monitors bigger than most TVs. Either way developers lose any sense of proportion or usability.
I have been complaining about small fonts for about 20 years, especially web sites. Now that I am old and grumpy, small fonts are poison for folks like me.
Those developers with big monitors likely test only for big monitors and smart phones. Often they do not seem to test for anything in between such as laptops and modest home systems.
Haven't you heard? Nobody uses desktop systems anymore. :-> Thank goodness TDE allows one to adjust the DPI to compensate for this. It might be nice, though, if it could look at the monitor characteristics and guess what a useful setting could be. My monitor is 30" 2560x1080 and 120DPI works well, but the laptop is worse: 15" 1920x1080, and 120DPI is marginal at best.
I struggle with this in the house network. TV is 37" 1920x1080, office desktop is 22" 1920x1080, laptop 1 is 15" 1920x1080, laptop 2 is 14" 1280x800. Testing systems include 19" 1680x1050, 21" 1600x900 monitor, 17" 1280x1024, and 15" 1024x768.
Back in the day of 4:3 aspect ratios, there was not much choice and video cards were designed for that. Nowadays monitor sizes and resolutions are all over the place. I don't think developers and engineers have really caught up.
Leslie -- Platform: Linux Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.5 - x86_64 Desktop Environment: Trinity Qt: 3.5.0 TDE: R14.1.2 tde-config: 1.0
On 5/20/24 6:32 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
SUCKS & DOESN'T SUCK
But to stick with our desktop question:
sucks
KDE/4/5/6 Gnome etc.
sucks less
MATE LXDE etc.
doesn't suck at all
TDE can't think of any others
Because of employment requirements, I used MATE for a few years until the devs adopted GTK 3. End of the road. I used Xfce for a few years thereafter and then those devs succumbed to the GTK3 spider web. End of the road.
I have no hatred for KDE 5 and after much sweat equity pruned the bloat to create a boring and basic desktop. Along the way I have been returning to TDE, little by little.
I tried LXQT for a few weeks. Nice but not close to KDE or TDE. Should keep maturing though to provide another Qt alternative.
GNOME is just another four letter word for me (the G is silent remember?).
William Morder composed on 2024-05-20 16:32 (UTC-0700):
TDE can't think of any others
Maybe because you don't use openSUSE, from where KDE3 never left, and where I've primarily been, since around the time KDE 3.5.0 was released.
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
The categories are inspired by deloptes' earlier comment, two kinds of people, smart and dumb.
By the way, there are only two kinds of anything, really, when you think about it, good or bad: good music or bad music, good food or bad food, good beer or bad beer ...
Everything else is just a matter of degree, exactly how good or how bad.
Exactly right - this is the binary nature of the universe. From the POV of epistemology we could add "I don't know", but from the POV of ontology it is irrelevant and everything would fall into one of those categories.
There are still few things that need improvement in TDE though - it ain't perfect
On Tuesday 21 May 2024 16:05:09 deloptes via tde-users wrote:
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
The categories are inspired by deloptes' earlier comment, two kinds of people, smart and dumb.
By the way, there are only two kinds of anything, really, when you think about it, good or bad: good music or bad music, good food or bad food, good beer or bad beer ...
Everything else is just a matter of degree, exactly how good or how bad.
Exactly right - this is the binary nature of the universe. From the POV of epistemology we could add "I don't know", but from the POV of ontology it is irrelevant and everything would fall into one of those categories.
There are still few things that need improvement in TDE though - it ain't perfect
People get too hung up on the power of reviews, but don't think critically about how that system used to be structured.
There was a time when reviews might have actually meant something; but even that is questionable. Back in the newspaper days, an *individual* food critic or music critic might give a subject 1-5 stars, in which case it meant something. Whether one agreed with the critic's judgment or not is another matter, but at least it was clear what that review meant.
When we get masses of people all trying to give 1-5 star reviews, it actually screws up the system, and gives us false readings.
I worked some jobs (many years ago) where people would review our work, 1-5 stars. But we found out very quickly, with so many people making their own "reviews" (really, just votes), that there was one BIG problem with the system.
To get anything less than 4 or 5 stars was like a death sentence: might as well get just 1 star, because it messed up your numbers, and anybody who wasn't regularly pulling an average of 4.5 stars or better would be cut out of the loop, stop getting work, which affected income, life, everything.
If people had just voted yes or no, good or bad, that would give truer results. 85% positive is better than saying your work gets 4.89 stars out of 5, especially if those "reviewers" are really just customers or clients, who moreover have had somebody beg them not to give less than 5 stars, or at the very least, not less than 4 stars.
It reminds me of that radio show that we used to have here in the US, Prairie Home Companion, where in Garrison Keillor's imaginary hometown, "all the children are above average"!
Bill
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
There was a time when reviews might have actually meant something; but even that is questionable. Back in the newspaper days, an *individual* food critic or music critic might give a subject 1-5 stars, in which case it meant something. Whether one agreed with the critic's judgment or not is another matter, but at least it was clear what that review meant.
Reviewers do not work for our benefit. They work for their own benefit - they get money or quotes. This means they write the review for specific target group and the wider the group, the better the results (for them). So the key is the target group. Unfortunately in the past 30y or so the west turned into lazy stupid consumer society and worst of all are the younger people. Even if they have good education etc., they want everything to be easy, quick and simple. Because of TV and smart phone, they can hardly concentrate and barely comprehend complex propositions. This is how I explain to myself all the changes in Gnome/KDE etc. and the LWN article. TDE is too complex, has too many options needs learning and reading ... it can not be managed by one click only etc. Couple of years ago we talked about a movie called Idiocracy. A friend said it is not the future, it is the now. Sadly it is true. This is why I think it is irrelevant what people think. It is important to have a good and clear vision. Whoever can value TDE, will benefit from it's stability. There are just few things that needs improvement so that it is more contemporary (DBus integration, OAuth to name some for example)
said Mike Bird via tde-users: | Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI laptop. The article is | here but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024: | | https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/ | | The discussion is visible in LWN's RSS feed. Thus far | I see two short threads: | | https://lwn.net/Articles/974365/ | https://lwn.net/Articles/974381/ | | Maybe TDE devs can add some useful info to the latter thread.
Possibly TDE is not favored by those who keep LWN on life support. I was actually surprised that it still exists.
On 5/20/24 3:14 PM, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI laptop. The article is here but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/
Today the article became available to non subscribers. Please read before replying. :)
Possible helpful points:
"None of the major Linux distributions have an official TDE spin or include its packages in their official repositories...."
The Q4OS folks officially support TDE, but Q4OS probably is not considered a major distro. Does having a "Tubuntu" spin improve credibility? That TDE is not part of official repos does seem to raise eyebrows when other "lesser" desktop environments such as MATE, Xfce, Cinnamon, Budgie, LXQt, LXDE, and Enlightenment are supported officially. Would be nice to see TDE receive more positive support upstream, but is being included in official repos important?
"Though the Trinity web site claims compatibility with newer hardware, it had some significant issues with a high-resolution (HiDPI) laptop display and external monitors over Thunderbolt connections."
Outside of KDE and GNOME, a lazy web search seems to indicate none of the other "lesser" desktop environments provide a Thunderbolt management front-end.
"For example, on a 13" laptop display with 2256x1504 resolution, TDE's user-interface elements were too small to use comfortably."
A 13" inch display seems small. Maybe not. In today's world where many computer users wear eyeglasses, how many people can "comfortably" use a 13" inch display at such high resolutions? How do other desktop environments or window managers fare in that same environment? High resolution support probably is something that should be addressed in TDE, but this complaint seems to be a nit pick outside an area of how many people use computers.
"Trying to use the network settings utility pops up an "unsupported platform" warning, and provides a list of supported distributions: the most recent of which is from 2015. The backend for the network settings is the knetworkconf package, a collection of Perl scripts that are far out of date for managing networking on current Linux systems."
Fair enough. Conversely, if the scripts remain functional then should they be labeled "far out of date"? Perhaps as long as this specific backend exists, a tracking item should exist that the visible distributions list is updated before release. At least provide the illusion of being current.
"Network configuration is still possible with NetworkManager, but it isn't integrated into TDE."
Perhaps the author was unaware of the tdenetworkmanager package. I have not used the package and can't vouch for usability. Does the TDE package function similarly to the KDE NetworkManager front-end or the GTK nmcli-applet?
"Users have plenty of configuration options for mice, but no trackpad options at all."
The lack of a trackpad/touchpad front-end seems a fair point. KDE has an extensive configuration module for touchpads, while Xfce has a nominal config module. Probably the other "lesser" desktop environments have modules too. There is an active feature request (tdebase 481) about adding TDE Control Center support features. Is this a critical issue?
"Konqueror is still a decent file manager, but it doesn't handle modern web sites well at all."
Subjective, but Konqueror still rates as one of the finest file managers. Using Konqueror as a web browser has been debated for years, within KDE circles and back in the KDE 3 days. Konqueror remains part of KDE although the underlying web engine has been updated. How well does KDE Konqueror handle "modern web sites"?
"The Kopete instant-messaging application offers to connect users to networks and protocols that are either dead and gone (AIM, Yahoo, Windows WinPopup) or well out of mainstream use (Novell GroupWise, Lotus Sametime)."
Perhaps the dead and obsolete protocols should be purged from the TDE source code.
"Support for more recent protocols, such as Matrix instant messaging, is not to be found."
Matrix is a relatively new kid on the block. The first official release was 2019. KDE has an "umbrella" project called neochat. Outside of KDE, most if not all of the current Matrix clients seem to be third-party rather than desktop natives. Possibly a fine feather in the cap, but should TDE developers be expected to provide a Matrix client?
"The vintage version of Amarok that is included still lists internet radio services that are defunct, and it immediately crashes when trying to play AAC files."
If true then perhaps the defunct services should be pulled from the code. Has anybody confirmed the AAC issue?
Personal thoughts:
Commenters offered points about interface design and usability requirements for why TDE remains a valid option.
Some of the article issues seem reasonable, but mostly I am reminded that articles with these kinds of titles are written and published for click-bait value. Rather than a muckraking article, this article could have been written with a perspective and title of "Trinity Continues the KDE 3 Spirit and Design." These types of articles are not what I expect from lwn.net.
Anno domini 2024 Thu, 30 May 21:52:05 -0500 Darrell Anderson via tde-users scripsit:
On 5/20/24 3:14 PM, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI laptop. The article is here but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
https://lwn.net/Articles/973130/Today the article became available to non subscribers. Please read before replying. :)
Did read it - including the comments :)
Possible helpful points:
"None of the major Linux distributions have an official TDE spin or include its packages in their official repositories...."
The Q4OS folks officially support TDE, but Q4OS probably is not considered a major distro. Does having a "Tubuntu" spin improve credibility? That TDE is not part of official repos does seem to raise eyebrows when other "lesser" desktop environments such as MATE, Xfce, Cinnamon, Budgie, LXQt, LXDE, and Enlightenment are supported officially. Would be nice to see TDE receive more positive support upstream, but is being included in official repos important?
IMO there should be an "official" distribution to battle that argument. Exegnulinux would fit the bill. I have my own spin of Ceres + TDE and regularly get bitten by changes in refractrasnapshot that are no fun dealing with (e.g. initrds created from refractasnapshot are broken but fmsmith does not integrate patches). Anyway, might be thing to consider. Also "Dark Theme" - I still use the defalt light one but it looks like it might be time to change that.
"Though the Trinity web site claims compatibility with newer hardware, it had some significant issues with a high-resolution (HiDPI) laptop display and external monitors over Thunderbolt connections."
Outside of KDE and GNOME, a lazy web search seems to indicate none of the other "lesser" desktop environments provide a Thunderbolt management front-end.
"For example, on a 13" laptop display with 2256x1504 resolution, TDE's user-interface elements were too small to use comfortably."
A 13" inch display seems small. Maybe not. In today's world where many computer users wear eyeglasses, how many people can "comfortably" use a 13" inch display at such high resolutions? How do other desktop environments or window managers fare in that same environment? High resolution support probably is something that should be addressed in TDE, but this complaint seems to be a nit pick outside an area of how many people use computers.
I use HiDPI and it is no issue to TDE. Problem might be that you need more than 10 seconds to figure that out. A 13" 16:9 display is as tall as a 12" X61 4:3 - and these were considered to be just readable when the devices came to the market (1024x786 pixel). Eyes of humans have not changed since then. Anybody remembers the "Gamboy-magnifying-glasses" you stuck on top the gamboys displays?
"Trying to use the network settings utility pops up an "unsupported platform" warning, and provides a list of supported distributions: the most recent of which is from 2015. The backend for the network settings is the knetworkconf package, a collection of Perl scripts that are far out of date for managing networking on current Linux systems."
Fair enough. Conversely, if the scripts remain functional then should they be labeled "far out of date"? Perhaps as long as this specific backend exists, a tracking item should exist that the visible distributions list is updated before release. At least provide the illusion of being current.
The author expose a profund ignorance about hardware. Wired internat works without a htch - that's been for ages ad will as long as no GUI crap interferes. I hate network-manager, but as the time beeing it works as a (inferior) replacement for wicd. That's no different to any other DE.
"Network configuration is still possible with NetworkManager, but it isn't integrated into TDE."
Perhaps the author was unaware of the tdenetworkmanager package. I have not used the package and can't vouch for usability. Does the TDE package function similarly to the KDE NetworkManager front-end or the GTK nmcli-applet?
Maybe it would be a good idea to include "network-manager-tde" as a recommended then?
"Users have plenty of configuration options for mice, but no trackpad options at all."
The lack of a trackpad/touchpad front-end seems a fair point. KDE has an extensive configuration module for touchpads, while Xfce has a nominal config module. Probably the other "lesser" desktop environments have modules too. There is an active feature request (tdebase 481) about adding TDE Control Center support features. Is this a critical issue?
I trackpints on my thinkpads. There are only 2 things need to be configured: speed (transformtion matrix - which is quite straight forward). And the scrolling (press MMB + move trackpoint scroll in 2D) for which I did not find a solution. And then there are GTK3 applications that may or may not require LMB pressed to make scrolling happen, which is so GNOMEish ...
"Konqueror is still a decent file manager, but it doesn't handle modern web sites well at all."
Subjective, but Konqueror still rates as one of the finest file managers. Using Konqueror as a web browser has been debated for years, within KDE circles and back in the KDE 3 days. Konqueror remains part of KDE although the underlying web engine has been updated. How well does KDE Konqueror handle "modern web sites"?
It works quite fine on simple pages with CSS1 and JS code from < 2010 - that is, it is quite useless nowadays on webpages. But it's rendering engine is used in kmail for HTML mails, too. Maybe it would just be fine to insert firefox as the defaullt in the XDG settings?
"The Kopete instant-messaging application offers to connect users to networks and protocols that are either dead and gone (AIM, Yahoo, Windows WinPopup) or well out of mainstream use (Novell GroupWise, Lotus Sametime)."
Perhaps the dead and obsolete protocols should be purged from the TDE source code.
+1
"Support for more recent protocols, such as Matrix instant messaging, is not to be found."
Matrix is a relatively new kid on the block. The first official release was 2019. KDE has an "umbrella" project called neochat. Outside of KDE, most if not all of the current Matrix clients seem to be third-party rather than desktop natives. Possibly a fine feather in the cap, but should TDE developers be expected to provide a Matrix client?
All the "new" messenger services provide a dedicated messenger. All are moving targets (but ICQ, and that will be shut down in some weeks). Where to start, where to stop?
"The vintage version of Amarok that is included still lists internet radio services that are defunct, and it immediately crashes when trying to play AAC files."
If true then perhaps the defunct services should be pulled from the code. Has anybody confirmed the AAC issue?
I don't have any AAC files. But the internet radio stuff is definitly a papercut "bug". Bat then there are alo corners in the wiki and help files that point to sites long gone (should be replaced by local copies or archive.org) - if somebody finds the time to do so.
Personal thoughts:
Commenters offered points about interface design and usability requirements for why TDE remains a valid option.
Some of the article issues seem reasonable, but mostly I am reminded that articles with these kinds of titles are written and published for click-bait value. Rather than a muckraking article, this article could have been written with a perspective and title of "Trinity Continues the KDE 3 Spirit and Design." These types of articles are not what I expect from lwn.net.
"shiny KDE6" vs "retro desktop". He does not like it. And he comes from a windows background, where there's no border between desktop and OS.
Nik
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On 5/31/24 2:05 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
"shiny KDE6" vs "retro desktop". He does not like it. And he comes from a windows background, where there's no border between desktop and OS.
The author, Joe Brockmeier, has been around free/libre circles for a couple of decades. Search for articles written by him from long ago. I think he also once was a community coordinator, I think for Suse.
Anno domini 2024 Fri, 31 May 11:05:53 -0500 Darrell Anderson via tde-users scripsit:
On 5/31/24 2:05 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
"shiny KDE6" vs "retro desktop". He does not like it. And he comes from a windows background, where there's no border between desktop and OS.
The author, Joe Brockmeier, has been around free/libre circles for a couple of decades. Search for articles written by him from long ago. I think he also once was a community coordinator, I think for Suse.
You know that SuSE was once called "The Nürnberger Windows" ? IIRC he's now at RedHat - https://www.redhat.com/en/authors/joe-brockmeier - and his job is to sell GUIs. I don't consider RedHat as anything but a company.
Nik
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On 5/31/24 12:01 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
On 5/31/24 2:05 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
"shiny KDE6" vs "retro desktop". He does not like it. And he comes from a windows background, where there's no border between desktop and OS.
The author, Joe Brockmeier, has been around free/libre circles for a couple of decades. Search for articles written by him from long ago. I think he also once was a community coordinator, I think for Suse.
You know that SuSE was once called "The Nürnberger Windows" ? IIRC he's now at RedHat - https://www.redhat.com/en/authors/joe-brockmeier - and his job is to sell GUIs. I don't consider RedHat as anything but a company.
My point for replying was he does not come from a Windows background and he is familiar with free/libre culture.
I agree with somebody else who posted the author should have done some fact checking and verifying before posting. Which is why I mentioned in my original post I thought the quality of the article was below the standards of lwn.net. Usually the fact-checking standards at lwn.net are high. I think the article is below Brockmeier's standards too as he has been writing online for many years. If the link is current and he is an employee at RedHat, then I am further disappointed by the theme of the article.
I'm not getting into a poop throwing contest about his job or who he is as a person. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but that he and the lwn.net editor simply screwed up with this article.
Okay I've read the article and my thoughts are:
As you know, as I've said it before, I was a HUGE fan of KDE 3 back in the day.
I like that the pace of TDE is SLOW, and that updates and major changes are SLOW.
I like that the UI doesn't change very much. Ya'll would laugh at me, but in Q4OS, I have my theme set to " Windows 7 Classic" theme. I had really been missing the classic theme that was ripped out WINDERPS 10 without Microcrap asking if people still used that theme or not. I, for one did.
I have my task bar like Windows 7, none of that stacking windows like the TDE theme does, like in the picture in the article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Desktop_Environment_3#/media/File:Kde_3_3_sc...
Every open window button is side by side.
I kept getting stuff mixed up, like thinking I had closed KMAIL and NOPE, it was still open on the task bar. I was use to open windows being side by side on the task bar, like it was in MATE, and not stacked like in KDE3.
See the link above.
============================================================ THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS@CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
I read the article and comments.
What does "CADT" mean, and why is it a "slur"?
I can't find anything on Google to tell me what the heck it means.
I've never heard that acronym before!
============================================================ THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS@CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
On 6/1/24 12:37 PM, Chris M via tde-users wrote:
What does "CADT" mean, and why is it a "slur"?
I can't find anything on Google to tell me what the heck it means.
I've never heard that acronym before!
On Saturday 01 June 2024 01:10:52 pm Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
On 6/1/24 12:37 PM, Chris M via tde-users wrote:
What does "CADT" mean, and why is it a "slur"?
I can't find anything on Google to tell me what the heck it means.
I've never heard that acronym before!
:O HEYYYYYYYYY!
I've had ADD / ADHD since I was 6 in 1989.
But really, its not a slur, per se... If it is, I don't see how?
Thanks for helping me solve the mystery lol. Now I know.
============================================================ THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS@CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
I've never heard that acronym before!
sounds like dumb and dumber tries to do things better, but never succeed. I wonder that it was observed already in 2003. I started paying attention to the symptoms around 2010. ATM it is epidemic and going to get worse in future.
Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
Some of the article issues seem reasonable, but mostly I am reminded that articles with these kinds of titles are written and published for click-bait value. Rather than a muckraking article, this article could have been written with a perspective and title of "Trinity Continues the KDE 3 Spirit and Design." These types of articles are not what I expect from lwn.net.
For me it is obvious that the writer never understood, why TDE was initiated and why people still use it. Obviously the factor how shiny something is, is more important than how stable something is. But hey this mentality is spilled all over the place and it sucks. There is no way to argue, because the people carring this mentality are usually uneducated and uncultured. They write for same highly uneducated and uncultured readers. It is becoming a religion. And so
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
TDE is open for those who seek the truth.
I am using one 13". I use it with 1920x1080 resolution. Why should I use it with higher resolution is unclear. Most of the time tdenetworkmanager handles the connections properly. I had only once an issue with a network in one hotel somewhere. For some reason it could not get the IP address properly while Windows on the same PC could handle it. What I am missing is the option to use tdenetworkmanager to utilize the SIM slot (internet via LTE). I have it on the todo.
So yes, TDE has limitation - may be the biggest one that it is not really designed to run on a laptop.
It is very challenging to maintain the code, because of the lack of people and time, although in the past few years there are many developers that joined and there are significant improvements.
(I am writing this as an observer and not officially approved to make statements in the name of TDE)
I joined the team because I do not have too much money to infest in supporting the project, but I have allocated some hours per year to do this or that for the project. I wish I had more to offer.
BR
On Friday 31 May 2024 10.54:55 deloptes via tde-users wrote:
the people carring this mentality are usually uneducated and uncultured.
I don't know if (and I am not sure that) they are uneducated and uncultured (at least in the broader meaning) but they are looking for what we don't want and they don't want what we are looking for.
Basically, as TDE is not a commercial venture, we don't care.
However, it also means that as far as the project needs money, we'll have to pay for it.
As far as I am concerned it's OK.
Thierry
Thierry de Coulon via tde-users wrote:
I don't know if (and I am not sure that) they are uneducated and uncultured (at least in the broader meaning) but they are looking for what we don't want and they don't want what we are looking for.
Uneducated, because they obviously do not know the history behind and uncultured, because they do not contact anybody before posting the crap
Recently I like this combination to point to a woke person that lives in a bubble.
Basically, as TDE is not a commercial venture, we don't care.
Exactly
However, it also means that as far as the project needs money, we'll have to pay for it.
As far as I am concerned it's OK.
Yes, I think so as well. The sad thing is that there are a lot of things to be improved, but there is not enough man power. I tried to participate to the regular meetings of the devs, but it was not possible for time reasons. I know though that they are coordinating their actions in regular meetings, so I am sure the project is in good hands.
On Fri May 31 2024 02:12:56 deloptes via tde-users wrote:
uncultured, because they do not contact anybody before posting the crap
This was indeed unacceptable.
A real journalist would have contact Slávek for comment on the draft article. The journalist might or might not have accepted Slávek's corrections but at least they would have tried.
This could have, for example, avoided the obvious error of saying that TDE R14.1.2 "drops support for several distributions that are at end-of-life" when he intended to say "releases", not "distributions".
On the plus side, there was - by the standards of the LWN community - a good discussion of TDE in the comments. Compare this to the announcement of the Manjaro 24.0 release at about the same time which attracted zero LWN comments.
Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
uncultured, because they do not contact anybody before posting the crap
This was indeed unacceptable.
In my favorites recently the site quora.com is "rising". It comes very often on top of google searches and it is such a BS that I wonder how and where they are getting all the information. One can not say that it does not have factual background, but it is rather interpretation of facts instead the facts themselves. So ... welcome to a new world, where facts can be fabricated, influenced, tweaked and abused as one likes it. I bet the big corps will use these site to train the AI, so that we have authority that "knows". But apart of this side note, can you sum up and put forward what can be improved. We could ask TDE to comment on prioritizing work in the future.
From my side I asked already about DBus. I was actually learning and working on it in the past few years and had good understanding and achievements. We fixed and polished the dbus-1-tqt and especially the generation of code out of the xml that is now usable for implementing synchronous and asynchronous interfaces for services and clients. As DBus is now defacto standard, I think TDE needs better integration or even replacement of the dcop functionality with dbus, which is gigantic work. I think a decision is needed where TDE wants to be in the future and how it will get there.
On Friday 31 May 2024 02:12:56 deloptes via tde-users wrote:
Uneducated, because they obviously do not know the history behind and uncultured, because they do not contact anybody before posting the crap
Recently I like this combination to point to a woke person that lives in a bubble.
Basically, as TDE is not a commercial venture, we don't care.
Exactly
However, it also means that as far as the project needs money, we'll have to pay for it.
As far as I am concerned it's OK.
Yes, I think so as well. The sad thing is that there are a lot of things to be improved, but there is not enough man power. I tried to participate to the regular meetings of the devs, but it was not possible for time reasons. I know though that they are coordinating their actions in regular meetings, so I am sure the project is in good hands.
Some people get it, others don't. Those others who don't get it will tend to believe in reviews, and moreover want to be dazzled by the very latest, brightest and shiniest new things.
The notion that anybody could prefer a desktop that simply works, is usable, and which allows users virtually total control over their own machines ... Why, this sounds like some kind of oldthink, an absurd fantasy covered in spider-webs and nostalgia.
I used to worry about whether our users and developers can keep TDE alive, and anybody else who has been running Trinity long enough has suffered through previous bad reviews and botched hit jobs. And I used to worry about Trinity getting installed in /opt/ and other seeming irregularities. Yet, 12 years later, TDE is still here, and I am still running TDE.
Every few years, a review like this comes out, and some people get agitated and worried, and say that something must be done: that we are slipping behind; or that TDE doesn't come bundled with any of the major distros as one of the default choices for desktop; or that we need more public visibility, to have a presence on this or that social media platform.
Yet, against all odds, TDE is still here, and is doing better than ever.
If I had paid attention to those negative reviews over the years, then I probably wouldn't be running TDE today. Just because somebody can write a review, it doesn't mean that what they say is actually real or true.
Bill
On 5/31/24 12:42 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
If I had paid attention to those negative reviews over the years, then I probably wouldn't be running TDE today. Just because somebody can write a review, it doesn't mean that what they say is actually real or true.
With some after thought, I am inclined to think that despite a poorly written click-bait article, the alleged problems cited in the article seems to speak well of TDE. The shtick about Amarok is revealing -- chickens scratching only to find something bad to say.
My respect for lwn.net and the author dropped a few notches. I expect better from both.
Curious the author chose TDE to write such a negative review. Many people could find several less-than-optimal features in every DE and write a similar article.
We return to our regularly scheduled broadcast.
On 5/31/24 05:02, Thierry de Coulon via tde-users wrote:
On Friday 31 May 2024 10.54:55 deloptes via tde-users wrote:
the people carring this mentality are usually uneducated and uncultured.
I don't know if (and I am not sure that) they are uneducated and uncultured (at least in the broader meaning) but they are looking for what we don't want and they don't want what we are looking for.
Basically, as TDE is not a commercial venture, we don't care.
However, it also means that as far as the project needs money, we'll have to pay for it.
While refusing to accept monetary support from the users. Including me a decade back. There is an armbian project that I and apparently many others contribute various amounts per month, my contribution is an un-noticable $25/month. I joined that because most of my 3d printers run some version of it and the support level has multiplied several times in recent history. You would likely do well by adopting their recipe to pay the bills. It seems to be working well. The lack of co-operation from the pi foundation is obvious, and the stability is becoming legendary. Better than pios these days.
As far as I am concerned it's OK.
Thierry ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto... .
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
While refusing to accept monetary support from the users. Including me a decade back. There is an armbian project that I and apparently many others contribute various amounts per month, my contribution is an un-noticable $25/month. I joined that because most of my 3d printers run some version of it and the support level has multiplied several times in recent history. You would likely do well by adopting their recipe to pay the bills. It seems to be working well. The lack of co-operation from the pi foundation is obvious, and the stability is becoming legendary. Better than pios these days.
I think for TDE it is not the monetary part that much but the lack of contributors and the scope of work. While most of the time the contributors are occupied with keeping the system stable and catching up with the changes in libraries that are used by TDE and recently with getting rid of conflicting code with KDE, it seems there are no ressources to update or implement newer things
BTW I am glad to hear from you as I no longer hang around the Debian user list.
On 5/31/24 10:11, deloptes via tde-users wrote:
gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
While refusing to accept monetary support from the users. Including me a decade back. There is an armbian project that I and apparently many others contribute various amounts per month, my contribution is an un-noticable $25/month. I joined that because most of my 3d printers run some version of it and the support level has multiplied several times in recent history. You would likely do well by adopting their recipe to pay the bills. It seems to be working well. The lack of co-operation from the pi foundation is obvious, and the stability is becoming legendary. Better than pios these days.
I think for TDE it is not the monetary part that much but the lack of contributors and the scope of work. While most of the time the contributors are occupied with keeping the system stable and catching up with the changes in libraries that are used by TDE and recently with getting rid of conflicting code with KDE, it seems there are no ressources to update or implement newer things
BTW I am glad to hear from you as I no longer hang around the Debian user list.
Thank you Deloptes. I don't know why I waste time with it myself, it sure hasn't been any help to me.
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Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
On 5/30/24 22:55, Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
On 5/20/24 3:14 PM, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
Sounds like a reviewer had issues with a HiDPI laptop. The article is here but a subscription is needed to view it before May 30th 2024:
Today the article became available to non subscribers. Please read before replying. :)
Possible helpful points:
"None of the major Linux distributions have an official TDE spin or include its packages in their official repositories...."
The Q4OS folks officially support TDE, but Q4OS probably is not considered a major distro. Does having a "Tubuntu" spin improve credibility? That TDE is not part of official repos does seem to raise eyebrows when other "lesser" desktop environments such as MATE, Xfce, Cinnamon, Budgie, LXQt, LXDE, and Enlightenment are supported officially. Would be nice to see TDE receive more positive support upstream, but is being included in official repos important?
"Though the Trinity web site claims compatibility with newer hardware, it had some significant issues with a high-resolution (HiDPI) laptop display and external monitors over Thunderbolt connections."
Outside of KDE and GNOME, a lazy web search seems to indicate none of the other "lesser" desktop environments provide a Thunderbolt management front-end.
"For example, on a 13" laptop display with 2256x1504 resolution, TDE's user-interface elements were too small to use comfortably."
A 13" inch display seems small. Maybe not. In today's world where many computer users wear eyeglasses, how many people can "comfortably" use a 13" inch display at such high resolutions? How do other desktop environments or window managers fare in that same environment? High resolution support probably is something that should be addressed in TDE, but this complaint seems to be a nit pick outside an area of how many people use computers.
"Trying to use the network settings utility pops up an "unsupported platform" warning, and provides a list of supported distributions: the most recent of which is from 2015. The backend for the network settings is the knetworkconf package, a collection of Perl scripts that are far out of date for managing networking on current Linux systems."
Fair enough. Conversely, if the scripts remain functional then should they be labeled "far out of date"? Perhaps as long as this specific backend exists, a tracking item should exist that the visible distributions list is updated before release. At least provide the illusion of being current.
"Network configuration is still possible with NetworkManager, but it isn't integrated into TDE."
Perhaps the author was unaware of the tdenetworkmanager package. I have not used the package and can't vouch for usability. Does the TDE package function similarly to the KDE NetworkManager front-end or the GTK nmcli-applet?
"Users have plenty of configuration options for mice, but no trackpad options at all."
The lack of a trackpad/touchpad front-end seems a fair point. KDE has an extensive configuration module for touchpads, while Xfce has a nominal config module. Probably the other "lesser" desktop environments have modules too. There is an active feature request (tdebase 481) about adding TDE Control Center support features. Is this a critical issue?
"Konqueror is still a decent file manager, but it doesn't handle modern web sites well at all."
Subjective, but Konqueror still rates as one of the finest file managers. Using Konqueror as a web browser has been debated for years, within KDE circles and back in the KDE 3 days. Konqueror remains part of KDE although the underlying web engine has been updated. How well does KDE Konqueror handle "modern web sites"?
"The Kopete instant-messaging application offers to connect users to networks and protocols that are either dead and gone (AIM, Yahoo, Windows WinPopup) or well out of mainstream use (Novell GroupWise, Lotus Sametime)."
Perhaps the dead and obsolete protocols should be purged from the TDE source code.
"Support for more recent protocols, such as Matrix instant messaging, is not to be found."
Matrix is a relatively new kid on the block. The first official release was 2019. KDE has an "umbrella" project called neochat. Outside of KDE, most if not all of the current Matrix clients seem to be third-party rather than desktop natives. Possibly a fine feather in the cap, but should TDE developers be expected to provide a Matrix client?
"The vintage version of Amarok that is included still lists internet radio services that are defunct, and it immediately crashes when trying to play AAC files."
If true then perhaps the defunct services should be pulled from the code. Has anybody confirmed the AAC issue?
Personal thoughts:
Commenters offered points about interface design and usability requirements for why TDE remains a valid option.
Some of the article issues seem reasonable, but mostly I am reminded that articles with these kinds of titles are written and published for click-bait value. Rather than a muckraking article, this article could have been written with a perspective and title of "Trinity Continues the KDE 3 Spirit and Design." These types of articles are not what I expect from lwn.net.
More personal thoughts from a long time user who hasn't been able to install on a debian system since the end of stretch. For newer versions it has been a dependency hell there is no recovery from but a re-install of debian. Items removed to satisfy your dependencies have included glibc for instance. I've complained but no one seems to care, So I'm stuck with thunderbird for email which is always broken somewhere, and xfce4 for a desktop. A generally usable solutiom but not ideal by a long row of apple trees.
Take care & stay well everybody.
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Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
On Fri May 31 2024 05:25:40 gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
More personal thoughts from a long time user who hasn't been able to install on a debian system since the end of stretch. For newer versions it has been a dependency hell there is no recovery from but a re-install of debian. Items removed to satisfy your dependencies have included glibc for instance. I've complained but no one seems to care, So I'm stuck with thunderbird for email which is always broken somewhere, and xfce4 for a desktop. A generally usable solutiom but not ideal by a long row of apple trees.
Hi Gene,
I have Debian running on a bunch of boxes, several of them with TDE.
If you're using standard Debian and TDE packages you're welcome to send me your problematic /etc/apt/ and dpkg -l and I'll put them on a test box and see if I can figure out how to get TDE running on your Debian.
But if you're using non-standard packages, or obsolete packages, or a lot of pinning then sorry, I can't help you.
--Mike
Mike Bird composed on 2024-05-31 05:59 (UTC-0700):
gene heskett wrote:
More personal thoughts from a long time user who hasn't been able to install on a debian system since the end of stretch. For newer versions it has been a dependency hell there is no recovery from but a re-install of debian. Items removed to satisfy your dependencies have included glibc for instance. I've complained but no one seems to care, So I'm stuck with thunderbird for email which is always broken somewhere, and xfce4 for a desktop. A generally usable solutiom but not ideal by a long row of apple trees.
I have Debian running on a bunch of boxes, several of them with TDE.
If you're using standard Debian and TDE packages you're welcome to send me your problematic /etc/apt/ and dpkg -l and I'll put them on a test box and see if I can figure out how to get TDE running on your Debian.
But if you're using non-standard packages, or obsolete packages, or a lot of pinning then sorry, I can't help you.
I have 21 64bit PCs running Debian amd64 and 8 32bit PCs running Debian "i386". Each of them has at least Bullseye and Bookworm. Most still have Buster and most have Trixie. Some still have Stretch. Every Trixie is an upgrade from Bookworm. Every Bookworm is an upgrade from Bullseye. Last fresh installation I did may have been Bullseye, but otherwise all Bullseyes were upgrades from Buster. Before that is foggy, but main method of getting new versions eventually became online upgrades, while some were clones from another PC.
TDM is sole DM, and TDE is primary DE on every last one of them to the complete exclusion of all other DEs, except on some IceWM is also present for occasional comparison testing.
Some have a trivial issue "Error - artsmessage; Sound server fatal error: cpu overload, aborting". A bunch have a malformed URL popup on right or main menu click. But, TDM works on all, and the TDE desktop, MC and Konsole run on all, among other apps.
My first email app was Netscape 2.02 on OS/2. It was replaced by Netscape 4, still on OS/2. Mozilla replaced it, and it morphed into SeaMonkey, which I still run 24/7, still with POP, though long ago I migrated email to openSUSE Linux & KDE3. With each openSUSE version upgrade the question comes up whether it's time to switch from KDE3 to TDE. So far the answer has been better to not abandon the remaining openSUSE KDE3 user pool and kde3@lists.opensuse.org subscribers before every TDE bug I reported gets closed fixed.
On Friday 31 May 2024 10:20:13 am Felix Miata via tde-users wrote:
My first email app was Netscape 2.02 on OS/2. It was replaced by Netscape 4, still on OS/2. Mozilla replaced it, and it morphed into SeaMonkey, which I still run 24/7, still with POP, though long ago I migrated email to openSUSE Linux & KDE3. With each openSUSE version upgrade the question comes up whether it's time to switch from KDE3 to TDE. So far the answer has been better to not abandon the remaining openSUSE KDE3 user pool and kde3@lists.opensuse.org subscribers before every TDE bug I reported gets closed fixed.
Well, you have to use POP3 with an Earthlink address. You only get like 300 Megs of storage ( back when I had an Earthlink email address), unless you upgraded to the 3 gig package for like 7.99 USD a month back then, I think?
I'm shocked that you don't run KMAIL like just about everyone else in this group :P.
I don't think i've ran seamonkey in YEARS due to it not having any useable extentions like the collection that Firefox and Vivaldi has.
I loved Netscape browser. I hated, and was so mad for a LONG TIME, that AOL ended the project. After NS died, I used IE 6 for a long time on XP. And HATED tabbed browsing when that came along, due to being use to NOT having that ability in IE 6.0. To this day, I have Vivaldi " Open Links in a new Window" vs tab. I have an extention installed that disables tabs, and when you click on " Open in a new tab" or " Open in a background tab", Vivaldi opens the link or whatever in a new window instead.
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On Saturday 01 June 2024 12:32:19 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
I don't think i've ran seamonkey in YEARS due to it not having any useable extentions like the collection that Firefox
Seamonkey is still somewhat useful. I keep it just for one website, but now even that website hangs in limbo.
On the subject of extensions, though, practically any Mozilla browser can be hacked to use Firefox extensions, and I use loads of them with Seamonkey ... when I actually use Seamonkey, that is.
Bill
On Saturday 01 June 2024 02:52:35 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On the subject of extensions, though, practically any Mozilla browser can be hacked to use Firefox extensions, and I use loads of them with Seamonkey ... when I actually use Seamonkey, that is.
Bill
Oh wow, I never new that.
What do you do, save the add on to the downloads folder as a .xpi or whatever it is Firefox uses, then open up Seamonkey, go to Extentions and drag that .xpi file to the Seamonkey extentions window to install it?
============================================================ THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS@CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
On Saturday 01 June 2024 13:28:17 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Saturday 01 June 2024 02:52:35 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On the subject of extensions, though, practically any Mozilla browser can be hacked to use Firefox extensions, and I use loads of them with Seamonkey ... when I actually use Seamonkey, that is.
Bill
Oh wow, I never new that.
What do you do, save the add on to the downloads folder as a .xpi or whatever it is Firefox uses, then open up Seamonkey, go to Extentions and drag that .xpi file to the Seamonkey extentions window to install it?
Sort of like that, yes. I download the xpi files and save them, then install manually. There are also some extensions called Nightly Tester Tools and Mr Tech Toolkit which can help.
However, in the newer browsers, these hidden features (or hackable bugs) are being disabled or blocked (changing to web extensions) so it's not quite so easy any more, but some can still be made to work. In any case, most extensions spy on your browsing habits to some degree, even in private browsing mode, so it may be better to look for other ways to get what you want.
It used to be that I could find pages online that showed how to use about:config to make some extensions work, although I haven't done this in awhile. In any case, as I said, just because it can be done doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good idea. Extensions already tend to spy on your browsing activities, and older extensions, or extensions hacked to force compatibility, are more susceptible to security issues.
In about:config, for example, users can change settings to force compatibility. I think it has something to do with "lowest version number" or some lines like that. There are other setings, but if you really want to do this, then I would suggest searching for something like "about:config force compatibility mozilla extensions ?" or similar, and you ought to find some pages.
Bill
Chris M composed on 2024-06-01 15:28 (UTC-0500):
William Morder wrote:
On the subject of extensions, though, practically any Mozilla browser can be hacked to use Firefox extensions, and I use loads of them with Seamonkey ... when I actually use Seamonkey, that is.
Oh wow, I never new that.
What do you do, save the add on to the downloads folder as a .xpi or whatever it is Firefox uses, then open up Seamonkey, go to Extentions and drag that .xpi file to the Seamonkey extentions window to install it?
http://addonconverter.fotokraina.com/compatibility/
On Friday 31 May 2024 10:20:13 am Felix Miata via tde-users wrote:
My first email app was Netscape 2.02 on OS/2. It was replaced by Netscape 4, still on OS/2. Mozilla replaced it, and it morphed into SeaMonkey, which I still run 24/7, still with POP, though long ago I migrated email to openSUSE Linux & KDE3. With each openSUSE version upgrade the question comes up whether it's time to switch from KDE3 to TDE. So far the answer has been better to not abandon the remaining openSUSE KDE3 user pool and kde3@lists.opensuse.org subscribers before every TDE bug I reported gets closed fixed.
You peaked my curiosity and I downloaded the latest Seamonkey tar file.
Yep it still looks the same to me!
Ugh, the mail client uses .mbox format. STRIKE 3 XXX.
I've gotten so use to the MH / MAILDIR format that I would have to break my archive folder down due to the limitations of the .mbox format.
No, its not over 4 gigs, but I'd have to break them down again back into years. 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024. Where right now every thing is just in the archives folder.
One thing that I HATE about KMAIL, and this drives me NUTS, is instead of sending the email RIGHT THEN, when I hit the send button, it puts it in the OUTBOX and then I had to add a button on the main KMAIL screen, next to the check mail button, to where I have to open the OUTBOX and then hit the button that says " SEND QUEUED EMAIL VIA...." and then click on my domain name. Ugh, Too many steps.
============================================================ THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS@CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
Chris M via tde-users wrote:
One thing that I HATE about KMAIL, and this drives me NUTS, is instead of sending the email RIGHT THEN, when I hit the send button, it puts it in the OUTBOX and then I had to add a button on the main KMAIL screen, next to the check mail button, to where I have to open the OUTBOX and then hit the button that says " SEND QUEUED EMAIL VIA...." and then click on my domain name. Ugh, Too many steps.
Do you mean TDE kmail? because it is sending the mails automatically if you wish. I forgot already how the config panels are called in english, but there you can choose the way outgoing mail is handled. There is an option to send automatically.
On Saturday 01 June 2024 06:23:39 pm deloptes via tde-users wrote:
Chris M via tde-users wrote:
One thing that I HATE about KMAIL, and this drives me NUTS, is instead of sending the email RIGHT THEN, when I hit the send button, it puts it in the OUTBOX and then I had to add a button on the main KMAIL screen, next to the check mail button, to where I have to open the OUTBOX and then hit the button that says " SEND QUEUED EMAIL VIA...." and then click on my domain name. Ugh, Too many steps.
Do you mean TDE kmail? because it is sending the mails automatically if you wish. I forgot already how the config panels are called in english, but there you can choose the way outgoing mail is handled. There is an option to send automatically.
Yes, and is this what you're talking about?
============================================================ THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS@CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
Chris M via tde-users wrote:
Yes, and is this what you're talking about?
Yes, this is what I mean. In my configuration (I do not know when I did it - may be around 2005) it is configured to "never ..." where it says "send ..."
But I think to recall that local mailbox is treated differently. I use the local mailbox as mail backup, while all the rest is going through SMTP and IMAP. So it might be some other setting you need to automate it, but I am not knowledgable in configuring the local. Perhaps you need your local exim or postfix to know about it and pick it up as soon as it gets there.
deloptes via tde-users wrote:
Chris M via tde-users wrote:
Yes, and is this what you're talking about?
Yes, this is what I mean. In my configuration (I do not know when I did it - may be around 2005) it is configured to "never ..." where it says "send ..."
But I think to recall that local mailbox is treated differently. I use the local mailbox as mail backup, while all the rest is going through SMTP and IMAP. So it might be some other setting you need to automate it, but I am not knowledgable in configuring the local. Perhaps you need your local exim or postfix to know about it and pick it up as soon as it gets there.
It turns out what I was doing was:
When I went to hit SEND, I was LONG PRESSING On the send button which like delays the sending of the email.
If I just click it real fast, the email automatically sends.
Right now, I am trying out Felix's SeaMonkey client. It's pretty neat!
But, using SeaMonkey browser, as my main browser, that's prob NOT going to happen, because BITWARDEN is NOT compatible with SeaMonkey. :( Bummer.
============================================================ THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS@CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
On 5/31/24 09:53, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
On Fri May 31 2024 05:25:40 gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
More personal thoughts from a long time user who hasn't been able to install on a debian system since the end of stretch. For newer versions it has been a dependency hell there is no recovery from but a re-install of debian. Items removed to satisfy your dependencies have included glibc for instance. I've complained but no one seems to care, So I'm stuck with thunderbird for email which is always broken somewhere, and xfce4 for a desktop. A generally usable solutiom but not ideal by a long row of apple trees.
Hi Gene,
I have Debian running on a bunch of boxes, several of them with TDE.
If you're using standard Debian and TDE packages you're welcome to send me your problematic /etc/apt/ and dpkg -l and I'll put them on a test box and see if I can figure out how to get TDE running on your Debian.
But if you're using non-standard packages, or obsolete packages, or a lot of pinning then sorry, I can't help you.
There is a bookworm problem that debian can't fix. So I won't saddle you with that, which is: Any program opening a local path to storage for any purpose is blocked, with no error messages found anywhere as to why its blocked. The block is of varying length ranging from a minimum of 30 seconds to maybe a minute. To say that sitting here, with no activity for all those blocks is frustrating is an understatement. Once this timeout has elapsed, operation is normal. Some programs, such as digiKam, won't wait for it, so while it goes thru the motions of importing pix from my es420 cannon, it does not actually import, shotwell OTOH, is blocked at initial launch, but once that has elapsed, I can turn on the camera, it automatically accesses it and everything just works. This top of he line ASUS based system has been re-installed something in the 40 times area because the installer can't work w/o unplugging ALL usb stuff. IMO the installer is broken but debian doesn't agree.
I'm hoping trixie when its offically out, will fix much of this. Uptime suffers too, not more than 2 weeks between x freezes while switching workspaces. That is not the end of the list but I won't bore you further. Thanks for the offer Mike, but the bottom line is probably that this is a frankensystem from the gitgo. My problem IOW. I insist this is a universal operating system, like debian is so proud of advertizing. It seems I share a house with the Murphy that wrote all those laws.
Take care & stay well Mike.
--Mike ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto... .
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
On Fri May 31 2024 12:56:10 gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
There is a bookworm problem that debian can't fix. So I won't saddle you with that, which is: Any program opening a local path to storage for any purpose is blocked, with no error messages found anywhere as to why its blocked. The block is of varying length ranging from a minimum of 30 seconds to maybe a minute.
Hi Gene,
You could try the following:
(1) Close whatever applications you don't need to have open. (2) Get as close as you can to the step that causes the long delay. (3) As root run and save the outputs of "ps fax" and "lsof -n". (4) Do the thing that starts the long delay. (5) Repeat step 3. (6) Compare the files from steps 3 and 5.
This might give a clue as to what is doing the delaying.
--Mike
On 6/1/24 06:09, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
On Fri May 31 2024 12:56:10 gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
There is a bookworm problem that debian can't fix. So I won't saddle you with that, which is: Any program opening a local path to storage for any purpose is blocked, with no error messages found anywhere as to why its blocked. The block is of varying length ranging from a minimum of 30 seconds to maybe a minute.
Hi Gene,
You could try the following:
(1) Close whatever applications you don't need to have open. (2) Get as close as you can to the step that causes the long delay. (3) As root run and save the outputs of "ps fax" and "lsof -n".
lsof -n is 219k lines ack wc -l.. I should reboot and not restart my network.
(4) Do the thing that starts the long delay.
Firefox is affected, and common, so I'll use that. But later.
(5) Repeat step 3. (6) Compare the files from steps 3 and 5.
This might give a clue as to what is doing the delaying.
--Mike
Thanks Mike, I'll do that when the machine is not so busy, likely about 4 hours. Right now its watching a part build, new y transport plates for a tronxy-400, out of PETG, replacing about a pound of steel with lighter weight stuffs. The PETG is for test fitting, the final will be made from PC. I found a way to do PC on an XMax3 which is about 60C short of a hot enough bed for PC.
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Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
On Sat June 1 2024 12:34:46 gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
On 6/1/24 06:09, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
You could try the following:
(1) Close whatever applications you don't need to have open. (2) Get as close as you can to the step that causes the long delay. (3) As root run and save the outputs of "ps fax" and "lsof -n".
lsof -n is 219k lines ack wc -l.. I should reboot and not restart my network.
(4) Do the thing that starts the long delay.
Firefox is affected, and common, so I'll use that. But later.
Don't forget step (1) above, and if possible use something simpler than Firefox to test the problem. Firefox opens huge numbers of files. My laptop currently has 2721777 (2.7M) files open of which 2256004 are opened by firefox.
(5) Repeat step 3. (6) Compare the files from steps 3 and 5.
This might give a clue as to what is doing the delaying.
--Mike
Thanks Mike, I'll do that when the machine is not so busy, likely about 4 hours.
<snip>
On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 15:11 (-0700), Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
On Sat June 1 2024 12:34:46 gene heskett via tde-users wrote:
On 6/1/24 06:09, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
You could try the following:
(1) Close whatever applications you don't need to have open. (2) Get as close as you can to the step that causes the long delay. (3) As root run and save the outputs of "ps fax" and "lsof -n".
lsof -n is 219k lines ack wc -l.. I should reboot and not restart my network.
(4) Do the thing that starts the long delay.
Firefox is affected, and common, so I'll use that. But later.
Don't forget step (1) above, and if possible use something simpler than Firefox to test the problem. Firefox opens huge numbers of files. My laptop currently has 2721777 (2.7M) files open of which 2256004 are opened by firefox.
<snip>
Mike, how did you calculate how many files are opened by firefox? I just added up all the entries in /proc/<pid>/fd for firefox and its children processes and I "only" got 1881.
2256004 seems like an astonishing number. Can you clarify this?
Thanks.
Jim
On Wed June 5 2024 18:33:35 Jim via tde-users wrote:
Mike, how did you calculate how many files are opened by firefox? I just added up all the entries in /proc/<pid>/fd for firefox and its children processes and I "only" got 1881.
2256004 seems like an astonishing number. Can you clarify this?
Hi Jim,
"lsof -n | grep firefox | wc -l" includes things like memory mapped libraries.
"ps ax | grep firefox | wc -l" currently yields 78 firefox processes but "ps -eLf | grep firefox | wc -l" yields 2319 firefox threads.
(This of course is nowhere near bulletproof but it'll do for now.)
I probably have a couple hundred tabs open, across 23 firefox windows.
--Mike
On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 19:49 (-0700), Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
On Wed June 5 2024 18:33:35 Jim via tde-users wrote:
Mike, how did you calculate how many files are opened by firefox? I just added up all the entries in /proc/<pid>/fd for firefox and its children processes and I "only" got 1881.
2256004 seems like an astonishing number. Can you clarify this?
Hi Jim,
"lsof -n | grep firefox | wc -l" includes things like memory mapped libraries.
"ps ax | grep firefox | wc -l" currently yields 78 firefox processes but "ps -eLf | grep firefox | wc -l" yields 2319 firefox threads.
(This of course is nowhere near bulletproof but it'll do for now.)
I probably have a couple hundred tabs open, across 23 firefox windows.
Thanks Mike.
I have three different firefox profiles running, and I'd guess over 100 tabs (more than I feel like counting right now).
For lsof -n | grep firefox | wc -l I get 882961 (which is a lot more than I would have guessed before seeing your message, but not up in the same range as you).
(Incidentally, I see that that the above grep catches lots of lines like Socket 621 ... /usr/lib64/firefox/libsoftokn3.so and I wonder whether the above grep double-counts some things. But maybe that isn't a big deal anyway.)
FYI, on my system right now ps ax | grep firefox | wc -l gives 100, and ps -eLf | grep firefox | wc -l gives 3105.
It is interesting (to me) that you have fewer threads, and yet about 2.55 times as many files opened.
For comparison, for a chromium instance with 22 tabs lsof reports 75422 files, and for 9 (collectively) urxvt terminals (with some perl extensions) lsof reports 732 open files. Evidently the web browser programmers are experts at writing software that uses lots of files. ;-)
Cheers. Jim
Anno domini 2024 Thu, 6 Jun 09:35:21 -0300 Jim via tde-users scripsit:
On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 19:49 (-0700), Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
On Wed June 5 2024 18:33:35 Jim via tde-users wrote:
Mike, how did you calculate how many files are opened by firefox? I just added up all the entries in /proc/<pid>/fd for firefox and its children processes and I "only" got 1881.
2256004 seems like an astonishing number. Can you clarify this?
Hi Jim,
"lsof -n | grep firefox | wc -l" includes things like memory mapped libraries.
"ps ax | grep firefox | wc -l" currently yields 78 firefox processes but "ps -eLf | grep firefox | wc -l" yields 2319 firefox threads.
(This of course is nowhere near bulletproof but it'll do for now.)
I probably have a couple hundred tabs open, across 23 firefox windows.
Thanks Mike.
I have three different firefox profiles running, and I'd guess over 100 tabs (more than I feel like counting right now).
What are you guys doing with that many tabs open ???
For lsof -n | grep firefox | wc -l I get 882961 (which is a lot more than I would have guessed before seeing your message, but not up in the same range as you).
(Incidentally, I see that that the above grep catches lots of lines like Socket 621 ... /usr/lib64/firefox/libsoftokn3.so and I wonder whether the above grep double-counts some things. But maybe that isn't a big deal anyway.)
FYI, on my system right now ps ax | grep firefox | wc -l gives 100, and ps -eLf | grep firefox | wc -l gives 3105.
It is interesting (to me) that you have fewer threads, and yet about 2.55 times as many files opened.
For comparison, for a chromium instance with 22 tabs lsof reports 75422 files, and for 9 (collectively) urxvt terminals (with some perl extensions) lsof reports 732 open files. Evidently the web browser programmers are experts at writing software that uses lots of files. ;-)
Cheers. Jim ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
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On Thu June 6 2024 06:56:53 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via tde-users wrote:
I have three different firefox profiles running, and I'd guess over 100 tabs (more than I feel like counting right now).
What are you guys doing with that many tabs open ???
Would love to tell you but ...
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ...
Are you having this issue on only one machine? I have Debian installed on 12 vm servers, my main laptop, and my main workstation now. I also install TDE on any machine that needs a GUI. I have never had an issue with apps accessing local storage. I use a good few IO intensive apps as well.
Something curious you said top of the line? Is this a brand new machine? You might need a more recent kernel. Personally if I have a brand new machine I use a rolling distro as Debian is a few kernel versions behind
On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 21:52 (-0500), Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
A 13" inch display seems small. Maybe not. In today's world where many computer users wear eyeglasses, how many people can "comfortably" use a 13" inch display at such high resolutions?
Is that a rhetorical question? The only problem with a high-resolution display (I'm assuming you are specifically meaning a high-DPI display) that I can imagine is if a user hasn't configured, or can't configure, the display to act appropriately. I like high-DPI displays, I much prefer looking at crisper text than fuzzily-rendered text at 96 or 100 DPI.
I'm on a laptop with a 141 DPI display. I use xrandr to set the DPI, I use xrdb to set Xft.dpi, and after that most of the programs I use Do The Right Thing. A couple (e.g., firefox) require me to set the environment variable GDK_DPI_SCALE to get reasonably-sized UI elements.
I should point out that while I use a number of TDE programs, I don't use the TDE DE (or window manager). Perhaps if I did I'd know what you are talking about when you (seem to) indicate that high resolutions are problematic. Assuming that you are claiming high-DPI displays are a problem, can you enlighten me as to what problem they give you?
Cheers. Jim
On Friday 31 May 2024 10:03:55 am Jim via tde-users wrote:
I should point out that while I use a number of TDE programs, I don't use the TDE DE (or window manager).
Huh? How do you use TDE app's without using TDE itself?
============================================================ THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS@CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 14:34 (-0500), Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Friday 31 May 2024 10:03:55 am Jim via tde-users wrote:
I should point out that while I use a number of TDE programs, I don't use the TDE DE (or window manager).
Huh? How do you use TDE app's without using TDE itself?
?
I'm not sure why you think that is hard. For example, in a terminal window I could enter the command ksnapshot and the ksnapshot program will start up, allowing me to grab screenshots.
Does that help?
Jim
On Saturday 01 June 2024 04:08:05 pm Jim via tde-users wrote:
I'm not sure why you think that is hard. For example, in a terminal window I could enter the command ksnapshot and the ksnapshot program will start up, allowing me to grab screenshots.
Does that help?
Jim
Yes, but I was just trying to imagine what DE you use with TDE apps?
Dated, and old looking, XFCE?
I CAN'T for the LIFE OF ME use XFCE... It just looks old, dated, and crusty and out of the 80's. I've tried and tried and tried to use it, but after a day NOPE, next day NUKE and PAVE.
============================================================ THANKS IN ADVANCE!
CHRIS
CHRIS@CWM030.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity Edition* ~~
On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 16:49 (-0500), Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Saturday 01 June 2024 04:08:05 pm Jim via tde-users wrote:
I'm not sure why you think that is hard. For example, in a terminal window I could enter the command ksnapshot and the ksnapshot program will start up, allowing me to grab screenshots.
Does that help?
Jim
Yes, but I was just trying to imagine what DE you use with TDE apps?
Dated, and old looking, XFCE?
I CAN'T for the LIFE OF ME use XFCE... It just looks old, dated, and crusty and out of the 80's. I've tried and tried and tried to use it, but after a day NOPE, next day NUKE and PAVE.
I think xfce was started in the late 1990's; I'm really wondering what about it makes you think is from the 1980s.
I've only used xfce a little bit, so I'm not sure what your issue is. Anyway, if xfce causes you distress, I'm worried when I tell you what I use, your head will explode.
I use fvwm3, because I have yet to find a window manager anywhere near as customizable as it is. (But before you say anything, keep i mind that this customizability allows you great latitude in how it looks, so while you probably wouldn't like my config, there are other vastly different configs which appeal to different tastes.)
Cheers. Jim
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