I didn't get any answers to this (see below)... Is that because: 1 I didn't make myself clear? 2 Nobody knows? 3 I'm trying to do something so stupid it should be obvious to me?
cheers
ant
------------------------------- previous message --------------- I need to reinstall gcc, but when I try, I get this: (Trinity 3.5.13.2 /etc/debian_version is jessie/sid)
------------------------- />aptitude install gcc The following NEW packages will be installed: gcc-4.9{a} libasan1{a} libatomic1{a} libcilkrts5{a} libgcc-4.9-dev{a} liblsan0{a} libtsan0{a} libubsan0{a} The following packages will be upgraded: binutils gcc 2 packages upgraded, 8 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded. Need to get 11.3 MB of archives. After unpacking 35.4 MB will be used. The following packages have unmet dependencies: kdesktop-trinity : Depends: binutils (< 2.23) but 2.24.51.20140727-1 is to be installed. The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
Remove the following packages: 1) kdebase-kio-plugins-trinity 2) kdebase-runtime-data-common-trinity 3) kdebase-trinity 4) kdesktop-trinity 5) kmail-trinity 6) konqueror-nsplugins-trinity 7) konqueror-trinity 8) ksmserver-trinity
------------------------
I guess if I do this, Trinity will stop working. Is there a fix?
cheers
ant
On Sunday 24 of August 2014 02:41:32 ant wrote:
I didn't get any answers to this (see below)... Is that because: 1 I didn't make myself clear? 2 Nobody knows? 3 I'm trying to do something so stupid it should be obvious to me?
cheers
ant
------------------------------- previous message --------------- I need to reinstall gcc, but when I try, I get this: (Trinity 3.5.13.2 /etc/debian_version is jessie/sid)
/>aptitude install gcc The following NEW packages will be installed: gcc-4.9{a} libasan1{a} libatomic1{a} libcilkrts5{a} libgcc-4.9-dev{a} liblsan0{a} libtsan0{a} libubsan0{a} The following packages will be upgraded: binutils gcc 2 packages upgraded, 8 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded. Need to get 11.3 MB of archives. After unpacking 35.4 MB will be used. The following packages have unmet dependencies: kdesktop-trinity : Depends: binutils (< 2.23) but 2.24.51.20140727-1 is to be installed. The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
Remove the following packages:
kdebase-kio-plugins-trinitykdebase-runtime-data-common-trinitykdebase-trinitykdesktop-trinitykmail-trinitykonqueror-nsplugins-trinitykonqueror-trinityksmserver-trinity
I guess if I do this, Trinity will stop working. Is there a fix?
cheers
ant
It is obvious that you have not updated for a long time because from separation jessie from wheezy binutils were updated about 6 times.
The package kdesktop-trinity from 3.5.13.2 has a strict dependency on a particular version of binutils. You'd have to either rebuild kdebase-trinity with each update binutils or rebuild kdebase-trinity with build option WITH_KDESKTOP_LOCK_BACKTRACE="OFF" or use a development version R14.
The package kdesktop-trinity from 3.5.13.2 has a strict dependency on a particular version of binutils. You'd have to either rebuild kdebase-trinity with each update binutils or rebuild kdebase-trinity with build option WITH_KDESKTOP_LOCK_BACKTRACE="OFF" or use a development version R14.
One more thing in addition to Slavek's comment. Even using the development version (R14), whenever binutils is updated you need to update also the package libr0, which has a strict dependency on the binutils version. Updated packages can be found on Slavek's repository: http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb/dists/ Given the reasonable stable state of pre v14.0.0, I would suggest you also update from tde 3.5.13.2 to pre v14.0.0.
Cheers Michele
On Sun, 24 Aug 2014, Michele Calgaro wrote:
The package kdesktop-trinity from 3.5.13.2 has a strict dependency on a particular version of binutils. You'd have to either rebuild
kdebase-trinity
with each update binutils or rebuild kdebase-trinity with build option WITH_KDESKTOP_LOCK_BACKTRACE="OFF" or use a development version R14.
One more thing in addition to Slavek's comment. Even using the development version (R14), whenever binutils is updated you
need to update also the package libr0, which has a strict dependency on the binutils version. Updated packages can be found on Slavek's repository:
http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb/dists/ Given the reasonable stable state of pre v14.0.0, I would suggest you also
update from tde 3.5.13.2 to pre v14.0.0.
Cheers Michele
That has let me upgrade binutils, and it all seems stable so far! Had to change kde to tde in some of my scripts.
Thank you for your help, folks. For reference, here is the relevant bit of /etc/apt/sources.list :
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb jessie main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb/ jessie main-r14 deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb/ jessie deps-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb/ jessie deps-r14
cheers
ant
On Sunday 24 of August 2014 22:59:49 ant wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2014, Michele Calgaro wrote:
The package kdesktop-trinity from 3.5.13.2 has a strict dependency on a particular version of binutils. You'd have to either rebuild
kdebase-trinity
with each update binutils or rebuild kdebase-trinity with build option WITH_KDESKTOP_LOCK_BACKTRACE="OFF" or use a development version R14.
One more thing in addition to Slavek's comment. Even using the development version (R14), whenever binutils is updated you
need to update also the package libr0, which has a strict dependency on the
binutils version. Updated packages can be found on Slavek's repository:
http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb/dists/ Given the reasonable stable state of pre v14.0.0, I would suggest you also
update from tde 3.5.13.2 to pre v14.0.0.
Cheers Michele
That has let me upgrade binutils, and it all seems stable so far! Had to change kde to tde in some of my scripts.
Thank you for your help, folks. For reference, here is the relevant bit of /etc/apt/sources.list :
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb jessie main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb/ jessie main-r14 deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb/ jessie deps-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb/ jessie deps-r14
cheers
ant
Lines in apt sources list can be merged:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb jessie deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb jessie deps-r14 main-r14
On Sunday 24 August 2014 22:57:22 Slávek Banko wrote:
Lines in apt sources list can be merged:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb jessie deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb jessie deps-r14 main-r14
Slávek -
Should this be:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14
for Linux Mint 17?
Thanks, Lisi
P.S. Yes, I know I could suck it and see, but I am struggling so much with being unable to see the awful MATE that I want to make as few errors as possible while trying to render Mint visible - and therefore usable.
Thank you, thank you, thank you all of you for TDE.
Dne út 2. září 2014 Lisi Reisz napsal(a):
On Sunday 24 August 2014 22:57:22 Slávek Banko wrote:
Lines in apt sources list can be merged:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb jessie deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb jessie deps-r14 main-r14
Slávek -
Should this be:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14
for Linux Mint 17?
Thanks, Lisi
P.S. Yes, I know I could suck it and see, but I am struggling so much with being unable to see the awful MATE that I want to make as few errors as possible while trying to render Mint visible - and therefore usable.
Thank you, thank you, thank you all of you for TDE.
Yes, Mint 17 is based on Ubuntu Trusty, so given APT sources should work correctly. By the way, for Ubuntu Trusty is available also LibreOffice with TDE integration:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/libreoffice-tde-sb trusty main
On Tuesday 02 September 2014 16:20:55 Slávek Banko wrote:
Dne út 2. září 2014 Lisi Reisz napsal(a):
Slávek -
Should this be:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14
for Linux Mint 17?
Thanks, Lisi
P.S. Yes, I know I could suck it and see, but I am struggling so much with being unable to see the awful MATE that I want to make as few errors as possible while trying to render Mint visible - and therefore usable.
Yes, Mint 17 is based on Ubuntu Trusty, so given APT sources should work correctly.
I have been struggling with the awful Linux Mint and MATE ever since. I felt that I must move beyond my comfort zone. Debian and TDE is so easy and so familiar. So for my new box for playing streaming media on my television I installed Linux Mint 17 with Mate.
I have made myself give it a fair chance. But I can stand it no longer. So I bit the bullet, edited my sources.list, updated and tried to install TDE 14.
This is the result:
<quote> The following packages have unmet dependencies: tdeprint-trinity : Conflicts: foomatic-db-compressed-ppds but 20140410-0ubuntu1 is installed. The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
Remove the following packages: 1) foomatic-db-compressed-ppds
Keep the following packages at their current version: 2) kubuntu-desktop-trinity [Not Installed] </quote>
Help!!
I hope that I have copied and pasted enough. As I say, I am struggling. Mate, anyhow in its Linux Mint version, is almost invisible. (To me, at any rate. But I can't use anyone else's eyes. ;-) )
I could, of course, simply wipe the lot and install my beloved Wheezy and TDE 3.13.2.2. But that would be defeatist.
Thanks, Lisi
On Tuesday 18 November 2014 22:06:52 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 02 September 2014 16:20:55 Slávek Banko wrote:
Dne út 2. září 2014 Lisi Reisz napsal(a):
Slávek -
Should this be:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14
for Linux Mint 17?
Thanks, Lisi
P.S. Yes, I know I could suck it and see, but I am struggling so much with being unable to see the awful MATE that I want to make as few errors as possible while trying to render Mint visible - and therefore usable.
Yes, Mint 17 is based on Ubuntu Trusty, so given APT sources should work correctly.
I have been struggling with the awful Linux Mint and MATE ever since. I felt that I must move beyond my comfort zone. Debian and TDE is so easy and so familiar. So for my new box for playing streaming media on my television I installed Linux Mint 17 with Mate.
I have made myself give it a fair chance. But I can stand it no longer. So I bit the bullet, edited my sources.list, updated and tried to install TDE 14.
This is the result:
<quote> The following packages have unmet dependencies: tdeprint-trinity : Conflicts: foomatic-db-compressed-ppds but 20140410-0ubuntu1 is installed. The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
Remove the following packages:
foomatic-db-compressed-ppdsKeep the following packages at their current version:
kubuntu-desktop-trinity [Not Installed]</quote>
addendum: Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] q Abandoning all efforts to resolve these dependencies. Abort. Hermes lisi #
Help!!
I hope that I have copied and pasted enough. As I say, I am struggling. Mate, anyhow in its Linux Mint version, is almost invisible. (To me, at any rate. But I can't use anyone else's eyes. ;-) )
I could, of course, simply wipe the lot and install my beloved Wheezy and TDE 3.13.2.2. But that would be defeatist.
Thanks, Lisi
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA224
On Tuesday 18 November 2014 22:06:52 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 02 September 2014 16:20:55 Slávek Banko wrote:
Dne út 2. září 2014 Lisi Reisz napsal(a):
Slávek -
Should this be:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14
for Linux Mint 17?
Thanks, Lisi
P.S. Yes, I know I could suck it and see, but I am struggling so
much
with being unable to see the awful MATE that I want to make as few errors as possible while trying to render Mint visible - and
therefore
usable.
Yes, Mint 17 is based on Ubuntu Trusty, so given APT sources should
work
correctly.
I have been struggling with the awful Linux Mint and MATE ever since. I felt that I must move beyond my comfort zone. Debian and TDE is so easy and so familiar. So for my new box for playing streaming media on my television I installed Linux Mint 17 with Mate.
I have made myself give it a fair chance. But I can stand it no longer. So I bit the bullet, edited my sources.list, updated and tried to install TDE 14.
This is the result:
<quote> The following packages have unmet dependencies: tdeprint-trinity : Conflicts: foomatic-db-compressed-ppds but 20140410-0ubuntu1 is installed. The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
Remove the following packages:
foomatic-db-compressed-ppdsKeep the following packages at their current version:
kubuntu-desktop-trinity [Not Installed]</quote>
addendum: Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] q Abandoning all efforts to resolve these dependencies. Abort. Hermes lisi #
Don't give up yet! I am in the process of releasing R14 RC1 as I type this; I am simply waiting for the package uploads to finish (a slow process unfortunately due to the limited bandwidth available to the TDE project). When RC1 is released its announcement will include a link to official installation instructions similar to the 3.5.13.2 installation instructions.
Tim
On Tuesday 18 November 2014 22:25:52 Timothy Pearson wrote:
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On Tuesday 18 November 2014 22:06:52 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 02 September 2014 16:20:55 Slávek Banko wrote:
Dne út 2. září 2014 Lisi Reisz napsal(a):
Slávek -
Should this be:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14
for Linux Mint 17?
Thanks, Lisi
P.S. Yes, I know I could suck it and see, but I am struggling so
much
with being unable to see the awful MATE that I want to make as few errors as possible while trying to render Mint visible - and
therefore
usable.
Yes, Mint 17 is based on Ubuntu Trusty, so given APT sources should
work
correctly.
I have been struggling with the awful Linux Mint and MATE ever since. I felt that I must move beyond my comfort zone. Debian and TDE is so easy and so familiar. So for my new box for playing streaming media on my television I installed Linux Mint 17 with Mate.
I have made myself give it a fair chance. But I can stand it no longer. So I bit the bullet, edited my sources.list, updated and tried to install TDE 14.
This is the result:
<quote> The following packages have unmet dependencies: tdeprint-trinity : Conflicts: foomatic-db-compressed-ppds but 20140410-0ubuntu1 is installed. The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
Remove the following packages:
foomatic-db-compressed-ppdsKeep the following packages at their current version:
kubuntu-desktop-trinity [Not Installed]</quote>
addendum: Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] q Abandoning all efforts to resolve these dependencies. Abort. Hermes lisi #
Don't give up yet! I am in the process of releasing R14 RC1 as I type this; I am simply waiting for the package uploads to finish (a slow process unfortunately due to the limited bandwidth available to the TDE project). When RC1 is released its announcement will include a link to official installation instructions similar to the 3.5.13.2 installation instructions.
Thanks, Tim! I'll struggle with the awful MATE for a little longer.
I was part of a discussion on another mailing list recently. We could between us think of no other DE that caters for poor eyesight anyhting like as well as TDE - which caters well by being so easily adaptable, whatever ones reason for wanting to adapt it. (Mind you, MATE on Linux Mint appears to be particularly bad - again, not just my observation.)
Lisi
On Tuesday 18 November 2014 22:25:52 Timothy Pearson wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA224
On Tuesday 18 November 2014 22:06:52 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 02 September 2014 16:20:55 Slávek Banko wrote:
Dne út 2. září 2014 Lisi Reisz napsal(a):
Slávek -
Should this be:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14
for Linux Mint 17?
Thanks, Lisi
P.S. Yes, I know I could suck it and see, but I am struggling so
much
with being unable to see the awful MATE that I want to make as few errors as possible while trying to render Mint visible - and
therefore
usable.
Yes, Mint 17 is based on Ubuntu Trusty, so given APT sources should
work
correctly.
I have been struggling with the awful Linux Mint and MATE ever since. I felt that I must move beyond my comfort zone. Debian and TDE is so easy and so familiar. So for my new box for playing streaming media on my television I installed Linux Mint 17 with Mate.
I have made myself give it a fair chance. But I can stand it no longer. So I bit the bullet, edited my sources.list, updated and tried to install TDE 14.
This is the result:
<quote> The following packages have unmet dependencies: tdeprint-trinity : Conflicts: foomatic-db-compressed-ppds but 20140410-0ubuntu1 is installed. The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
Remove the following packages:
foomatic-db-compressed-ppdsKeep the following packages at their current version:
kubuntu-desktop-trinity [Not Installed]</quote>
addendum: Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] q Abandoning all efforts to resolve these dependencies. Abort. Hermes lisi #
Don't give up yet! I am in the process of releasing R14 RC1 as I type this; I am simply waiting for the package uploads to finish (a slow process unfortunately due to the limited bandwidth available to the TDE project). When RC1 is released its announcement will include a link to official installation instructions similar to the 3.5.13.2 installation instructions.
Thanks, Tim! I'll put up with the awful MATE for as little longer then.
Lisi
Why do mailing lists always end up with emotional posts? No DE is awful. I use most of them, they each have their good and bad points. Attacking another DE is similar to attacking systemd or suggesting Debian is on its last legs. It is an opinion, everyone has a right to their opinions, but no one else should feel as though they are using something that is inadequate just because, as individuals, we don't like something.
On Wednesday 19 November 2014 01:48:24 Michael . wrote:
Why do mailing lists always end up with emotional posts? No DE is awful. I use most of them, they each have their good and bad points. Attacking another DE is similar to attacking systemd or suggesting Debian is on its last legs. It is an opinion, everyone has a right to their opinions, but no one else should feel as though they are using something that is inadequate just because, as individuals, we don't like something.
No, I cannot accept this. I am partially sighted. That is my perspective. Yes, MATE on Mint is awful. For me. I did make that clear. One man's meat is another man's poison. And I can give rational reasons for feeling that.
But that doesn't mean that there are not those who love it. In fact, I know that there are, and I have no problem with that. I have never said that it should not exist or that this distro or that distro should not use it. Or that those who use it are inferior. In fact, some might say that they are superior because they clearly have better eyesight. ;-) Merely that I find it awful. And that in a discussion on another list we could not hink of another DE which is as configurable, and therefore as suitable for those of us with less than 20:20 vision, as TDE.
Lisi
On Wed, 19 Nov 2014, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Wednesday 19 November 2014 01:48:24 Michael . wrote:
Why do mailing lists always end up with emotional posts? No DE is awful. I use most of them, they each have their good and bad points. Attacking another DE is similar to attacking systemd or suggesting Debian is on its last legs. It is an opinion, everyone has a right to their opinions, but no one else should feel as though they are using something that is inadequate just because, as individuals, we don't like something.
No, I cannot accept this. I am partially sighted. That is my perspective. Yes, MATE on Mint is awful. For me. I did make that clear. One man's meat is another man's poison. And I can give rational reasons for feeling that.
But that doesn't mean that there are not those who love it. In fact, I know that there are, and I have no problem with that. I have never said that it should not exist or that this distro or that distro should not use it. Or that those who use it are inferior. In fact, some might say that they are superior because they clearly have better eyesight. ;-) Merely that I find it awful. And that in a discussion on another list we could not hink of another DE which is as configurable, and therefore as suitable for those of us with less than 20:20 vision, as TDE.
Lisi
I agree that such discussions of opinions, based in fact and on reasonable considerations, are perfectly acceptable and I welcome them. I find them helpful (even when I disagree).
F.
I find the negativity pointless, it achieves nothing.
With regards to accepting my reply let me ask you did you take the time to let the MATE devs (Clem at Linux Mint is not a MATE dev) know and make suggestions on how to make it easier to use? In other words did you file a bug report based on usability? If you did do you have the number? I can check it for you and let you know what's being done. If you didn't then I would suggest you do in order to help a small project make itself better and be more usable.
The vast majority of Linux, especially small scale projects like MATE and TDE, is done by volunteers. Posting that things are "awful" does not help Linux at all when nothing is being done to help. If we use emotional responses to things we do not like and not file bug reports then complaining is pointless.
I appreciate your point of view and respect your opinion as an opinion however I cannot accept that the criticism is fair and anything more than an emotional response if you have done nothing to help projects that you are using to make their product better.
On Wednesday 19 November 2014 10:17:14 Michael . wrote:
I find the negativity pointless, it achieves nothing.
I'm not trying to achieve anything. I think that for me the combination of Mint and MATE is awful. All I am trying to achieve - which is clearly achievable - is to stop using it.
With regards to accepting my reply let me ask you did you take the time to let the MATE devs (Clem at Linux Mint is not a MATE dev) know and make suggestions on how to make it easier to use?
How do you suggest that I should have done that? That does require being able to see what one is doing, you know. I did take the time, quite a lot of time, in fact, to try to make it more usable.
In other words did you file a bug report based on usability? If you did do you have the number? I can check it for you and let you know what's being done. If you didn't then I would suggest you do in order to help a small project make itself better and be more usable.
Even had it been reasonably possible, which it isn't and wasn't on that computer, why should I? And why should I care what happens to MATE and Mint? I wish them luck, but have no stake in whether they succeed or not, nor any preference for MATE over Cinnamon. Had the combination cared about people like me, it wouldn't have been so awful in the first place. If it didn't care then, i.e. before, why would it care now? But do remember, the main "fault" may be Mint's.
If _you_ want to file a bug report, a good start for the Mint/MATE combination would be to have a visible mouse pointer (I actually couldn't see it) and legible text at first boot up. Don't tell me that anyone seriously thought that tiny light grey text on a pale grey transparent background, with a pale green pattern behind it, would be usable by the sight-challenged?
I'm not complaining. Lots of people love Mint/MATE and that is great. But I am allowed to dislike it if I want.
The vast majority of Linux, especially small scale projects like MATE and TDE, is done by volunteers. Posting that things are "awful" does not help Linux at all when nothing is being done to help. If we use emotional responses to things we do not like and not file bug reports then complaining is pointless.
I'm not complaining, and haven't complained. I merely used an adjective to which you object. I'm switching to TDE, and if that doesn't solve my problem (I don't know how much is due to Mint) I shall retreat back to Debian (with TDE, of course). I have an emotional response when I am tired, and am struggling to see. I feel, and am, shut out. The Mint/MATE developers are developing for the young with 20/20 vision. They have that right. Good luck to them. I have the right to find the result awful, and not to use it!
I am well aware that FLOSS is run by volunteers and am very grateful to them. I say so frequently, and endeavour to help when I am able with anything I use. I do too little, but I accept that I have a responsibility. But I can't and don't accept responsibility for every FLOSS project.
I appreciate your point of view and respect your opinion as an opinion however I cannot accept that the criticism is fair and anything more than an emotional response if you have done nothing to help projects that you are using to make their product better.
I do help products I am using, if I can. Are you saying that I shouldn't even look at any other projects to see what I think? Or that if I want to look at anything I have to help everything? The criticism is entirely fair. From where I am standing that particular combination is awful. I have put a lot of effort in and have got it *almost* usable. But it is still awful, so I am stopping trying to use it.
I'm not helping with Mint/MATE because basically I am not intending to use it. It is, from my point of view, wrong at too basic a level, for the odd bug fix to solve the problem. Tim says wait a bit, so I shall wait. But I shall run home to TDE from MATE with a sigh of relief.
Your basic thesis, that one is never allowed to say anything negative about anything Open Source is clearly ridiculous. It's not as if I expect anyone to do anything about it. Is your thesis that, if people are paid to do something, their work can be criticised, but if they are volunteers then everyone has to say that the results of everything they do are marvellous all the time? Perhaps you would like to publish a list of the adjectives that one is allowed to use when mentioning anything Open Source?
If you want to carry on with this, perhaps we should take it off list.
Lisi
I see no reason to take something off list that I did not bring onto the list. You say you are not complaining, if using the adjective awful is not a complaint about the usability of Mint/MATE what is it? I genuinely have no problem with what you have pointed out, I do however feel you go overboard. Like I said in my first response to this topic I see alot of TDE is "wonderful" (which is great) but everything else is "awful". When you use something, and by your own admission you use Mint/MATE, and you find a problem with it it really does help others if you tell the people who are developing it. Your reply certainly indicates you never did this so to be fair your complaint isn't really helpful. Do you report problems you find with TDE? If you find something I bet you would because you have an emotional attachment to TDE but you don't have an emotional attachment to anything else and because of this it appears as though it is fine for you to bag them. I find that extremely unfair and unreasonable especially when you wont take the time to help projects you do use.
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I see no reason to take something off list that I did not bring onto the list. You say you are not complaining, if using the adjective awful is not a complaint about the usability of Mint/MATE what is it? I genuinely have no problem with what you have pointed out, I do however feel you go overboard. Like I said in my first response to this topic I see alot of TDE is "wonderful" (which is great) but everything else is "awful". When you use something, and by your own admission you use Mint/MATE, and you find a problem with it it really does help others if you tell the people who are developing it. Your reply certainly indicates you never did this so to be fair your complaint isn't really helpful. Do you report problems you find with TDE? If you find something I bet you would because you have an emotional attachment to TDE but you don't have an emotional attachment to anything else and because of this it appears as though it is fine for you to bag them. I find that extremely unfair and unreasonable especially when you wont take the time to help projects you do use.
While I largely agree with the ideas posted above, bear in mind that many projects/products (both open-source and commercial) have a definite idea of what they want their user experience to be, and any attempt at deviation will result in (at minimum) wasted effort on the part of the "bug" reporter or possibly even devolution to name calling, belittling, etc. on lists. Fortunately I have not seen much of the latter but I have had numerous UX bugs immediately tagged as WONTFIX or just plain ignored by large upstream projects; this has dissuaded me from bothering to report them in the first place as I can generally spend the same amount of overall time adding a feature to TDE or coding a workaround for something missing.
Molding existing projects to your UX desires is often not feasible. Even this project (and I myself) have rejected numerous UX proposals that are outside the spirit of TDE's design.
TL;DR: Find something that's 90% of the way to where you like it and support it no matter what. Forget about molding something that's 50% there into what you want.
Just my $0.02. :-)
Tim
Tim I agree with what you are saying but as someone who knows MATE quite well and is an active participant in that project (the forum) it irks me to no end when people use it and complain yet do absolutely nothing to help. I know of a couple of instances where people have posted usability issues and the devs have worked on them. One fellow felt physically ill with the line that scrolls across when downloading, the devs have been working with him on that because it is a usability feature for a very small group of users (I'd suggest way less than 1%).
I would be the very same with TDE if someone come out and said it was "awful" but MATE was "wonderful". I have been accused of censoring people who post emotional attacks on Gnome 3 or KDE 4 that have no technical basis but are based on using something they have an emotional attachment to.
On Wednesday 19 November 2014 22:25:46 Michael . wrote:
I would be the very same with TDE if someone come out and said it was "awful" but MATE was "wonderful". I have been accused of censoring people who post emotional attacks on Gnome 3 or KDE 4 that have no technical basis but are based on using something they have an emotional attachment to.
There IS a "technical" basis. You are just totally unwilling to read it when I type it out for you. I can't see it and I can find no way to configure it. It is designed to be almost invisible.
To go in for such almost violent ad hominem attacks because you don't like my choice of vocabulary seems ridiculous. I find TDE wonderful and MATE awful. I am entitled to do so.
I did give you more detail, but you obviously didn't read it.
Lisi
Lisi, now to reply to this particular message.
Violent? How am I supposed to respond to that accusation? Have I called you anything untoward? It seems your choice of vocabulary is fine but I am not allowed to say what I feel. If that is the case then fine I will just totally ignore everything you post from here on in. If it is not the case then let me know because you want me to post a bug report for you which you are going to have to take a central role in providing relevant information when I relay messages back and forth to you.
Your posts really don't show much technical basis at all. You say it is designed to be almost invisible but you don't tell us what you have done in an attempt to change that. There are visibility themes but you don't mention them.
I have read all of your posts and am yet to find anything that, apart from one mention of green on grey, which actually helps.
On 20 November 2014 09:40, Lisi Reisz lisi.reisz@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday 19 November 2014 22:25:46 Michael . wrote:
I would be the very same with TDE if someone come out and said it was "awful" but MATE was "wonderful". I have been accused of censoring people who post emotional attacks on Gnome 3 or KDE 4 that have no technical
basis
but are based on using something they have an emotional attachment to.
There IS a "technical" basis. You are just totally unwilling to read it when I type it out for you. I can't see it and I can find no way to configure it. It is designed to be almost invisible.
To go in for such almost violent ad hominem attacks because you don't like my choice of vocabulary seems ridiculous. I find TDE wonderful and MATE awful. I am entitled to do so.
I did give you more detail, but you obviously didn't read it.
Lisi
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Oh, Michael, you do like to go on. I've had enough of this. You don't even read what I do say. I don't intend to do anything at all in this scenario of yours, let alone take a central role in anything.
Of course you are entitled to your feelings, just as I am entitled to mine. But this has gone on too long, and disturbed the list too long. It is way off topic.
Lisi
On Wednesday 19 November 2014 23:39:32 Michael . wrote:
Violent? How am I supposed to respond to that accusation? Have I called you anything untoward? It seems your choice of vocabulary is fine but I am not allowed to say what I feel. If that is the case then fine I will just totally ignore everything you post from here on in. If it is not the case then let me know because you want me to post a bug report for you which you are going to have to take a central role in providing relevant information when I relay messages back and forth to you.
Your posts really don't show much technical basis at all. You say it is designed to be almost invisible but you don't tell us what you have done in an attempt to change that. There are visibility themes but you don't mention them.
I have read all of your posts and am yet to find anything that, apart from one mention of green on grey, which actually helps.
The topic was separated already so this is not off topic but rather is on topic because it is a topic you brought up.
I like to go on? this from someone who accuses others of ad hominem. There is such as thing as an ad hominem fallacy https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem. Read your posts, you're the one saying TDE is "wonderful" and most other things are "awful". Its not just MATE you bag, it is websites, website designers, and all.
Ad Hominem is an attempt to undermine the other person. I haven't undermined your case rather I have tried to get you to use your case to help. No you don't have to help but don't tell me to file a bug report when I have not experienced what you are experiencing.
I respect your choice not to continue this so I will leave it here.
On 20 November 2014 11:00, Lisi Reisz lisi.reisz@gmail.com wrote:
Oh, Michael, you do like to go on. I've had enough of this. You don't even read what I do say. I don't intend to do anything at all in this scenario of yours, let alone take a central role in anything.
Of course you are entitled to your feelings, just as I am entitled to mine. But this has gone on too long, and disturbed the list too long. It is way off topic.
Lisi
On Wednesday 19 November 2014 23:39:32 Michael . wrote:
Violent? How am I supposed to respond to that accusation? Have I called
you
anything untoward? It seems your choice of vocabulary is fine but I am
not
allowed to say what I feel. If that is the case then fine I will just totally ignore everything you post from here on in. If it is not the case then let me know because you want me to post a bug report for you which you are going to have to take a central role in providing relevant information when I relay messages back and forth to you.
Your posts really don't show much technical basis at all. You say it is designed to be almost invisible but you don't tell us what you have done
in
an attempt to change that. There are visibility themes but you don't mention them.
I have read all of your posts and am yet to find anything that, apart
from
one mention of green on grey, which actually helps.
To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@lists.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-users-help@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting
On Wednesday 19 November 2014 21:42:02 Timothy Pearson wrote:
TL;DR: Find something that's 90% of the way to where you like it and support it no matter what. Forget about molding something that's 50% there into what you want.
You need to be able to see it to find out if it is 50% there. ;-)
Lisi
Lisi, it is apparent to me that Tim separated the 2 quite disparate discussions I will post in this one so your post in the other one, after the separation will remain unanswered in the other discussion but I will try my best to answer it here.
With regards to me filing a bug report for you I am willing to do that for you.First there must be an understanding between us, if I do post a bug report you must, and I do mean must, follow through with it. You are the person having difficulty not me so if I spend my time helping you and you do not help me to help you then it will just be a complete waste of my time. If you are willing to help with a bug report send me an email with all the relevant information.
With regards this being ad hominem I feel that is a cop out. You bagged an inanimate thing saying it was "awful" yet you are now suggesting my replies are ad hominem. I'm not attacking you I am pointing out that so far you have bagged something that cannot do anything for itself and you have not done anything to help it. You also forget we both have visual impairments and that is one of the reasons I am willing to help you to help something that is incapable of helping itself but requires users to let the developers know what the problems are so they can do something about it.
Feel free to let me know if I have missed anything.
On Wednesday 19 November 2014 23:30:05 Michael . wrote:
With regards to me filing a bug report for you I am willing to do that for you.First there must be an understanding between us, if I do post a bug report you must, and I do mean must, follow through with it. You are the person having difficulty not me so if I spend my time helping you and you do not help me to help you then it will just be a complete waste of my time. If you are willing to help with a bug report send me an email with all the relevant information.
You are not filing a bug report for me. You are filing it for you. You are the one who is going on about bug reports being filed to help the developers. I am not using Mint/MATE, and have no intention of doing so just because it is so dear to your heart.
With regards this being ad hominem I feel that is a cop out. You bagged an inanimate thing saying it was "awful" yet you are now suggesting my replies are ad hominem. I'm not attacking you
You could have fooled me!!!
I am pointing out that so far you have bagged something that cannot do anything for itself and you have not done anything to help it.
Why should I? I have no duty to help MATE just because I dislike it. Rather the opposite I would have thought. There are loads of projects out there. You seem to be saying that I have a duty to help every one.
You also forget we both have visual impairments and that is one of the reasons I am willing to help you to help something that is incapable of helping itself but requires users to let the developers know what the problems are so they can do something about it.
I'm quite happy just not to use it. You apparently are not. It is up to the developers whether they want to do something about it. They show no sign of doing so.
I wish that people wouldn't try to "help" me by trying to force me to use something I don't want to use.
This is just getting silly. I owe MATE nothing. I wish that I had never gone anywhere near it. I should have looked at Cinnamon if I wanted to look at either.
The silliest thing of all is that I strongly suspect that most of what I dislike is in fact due to Mint.
Lisi
On Wednesday 19 November 2014 21:28:32 Michael . wrote:
When you use something, and by your own admission you use Mint/MATE, and you find a problem with it it really does help others if you tell the people who are developing it.
No, I do not use Mint/MATE. I have tried and failed. I can't render it properly visible. How on earth am I supposed to type out and send a bug report? I have told you what my initial and main problem was, and suggested that you should report it. Have you done so?
Your reply certainly indicates you never did this so to be fair your complaint isn't really helpful. Do you report problems you find with TDE?
I try to. When Timothy asked me to report a bug I immediately did so.
If you find something I bet you would because you have an emotional attachment to TDE but you don't have an emotional attachment to anything else and because of this it appears as though it is fine for you to bag them.
This is becoming ad hominem and very unpleasant. Also totally unmerited. I have tried to give you reasons, entirely rational ones, both for my dislike of MATE and for my liking for TDE.
I find that extremely unfair and unreasonable especially when you wont take the time to help projects you do use.
What help do you think that I do not give to projects I do use that I ought to give them? I do try quite hard to contribute within the limits of my ability.
Lisi
On Wed, 19 Nov 2014, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Wednesday 19 November 2014 21:28:32 Michael . wrote:
When you use something, and by your own admission you use Mint/MATE, and you find a problem with it it really does help others if you tell the people who are developing it.
No, I do not use Mint/MATE. I have tried and failed. I can't render it properly visible. How on earth am I supposed to type out and send a bug report? I have told you what my initial and main problem was, and suggested that you should report it. Have you done so?
Your reply certainly indicates you never did this so to be fair your complaint isn't really helpful. Do you report problems you find with TDE?
I try to. When Timothy asked me to report a bug I immediately did so.
I won't say another word on this thread which has gone past its useful life except that pointing out problems in software can be _exceedingly_ useful to present or interested _users_ of the software.
consider it a kind of 'review'. people with serious problems with sight now know to approach Mint with caution.
and all evaluation involves expressing emotions. the manner of expression is what matters.
anyway, have a good time whatever your time-zone.
F.
If you find something I bet you would because you have an emotional attachment to TDE but you don't have an emotional attachment to anything else and because of this it appears as though it is fine for you to bag them.
This is becoming ad hominem and very unpleasant. Also totally unmerited. I have tried to give you reasons, entirely rational ones, both for my dislike of MATE and for my liking for TDE.
I find that extremely unfair and unreasonable especially when you wont take the time to help projects you do use.
What help do you think that I do not give to projects I do use that I ought to give them? I do try quite hard to contribute within the limits of my ability.
Lisi
On Tuesday 18 November 2014 22:25:52 Timothy Pearson wrote:
On Tuesday 18 November 2014 22:06:52 Lisi Reisz wrote:
So I bit the bullet, edited my sources.list, updated and tried to install TDE 14.
This is the result:
<quote> The following packages have unmet dependencies: tdeprint-trinity : Conflicts: foomatic-db-compressed-ppds but 20140410-0ubuntu1 is installed. The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
Remove the following packages:
foomatic-db-compressed-ppdsKeep the following packages at their current version:
kubuntu-desktop-trinity [Not Installed]</quote>
addendum: Accept this solution? [Y/n/q/?] q Abandoning all efforts to resolve these dependencies. Abort. Hermes lisi #
Don't give up yet! I am in the process of releasing R14 RC1 as I type this; I am simply waiting for the package uploads to finish (a slow process unfortunately due to the limited bandwidth available to the TDE project). When RC1 is released its announcement will include a link to official installation instructions similar to the 3.5.13.2 installation instructions.
I waited as advised, edited my sources.list, tried again to install, and got the same problem.
I have, however found both a workaround and the explanation for why Tim, at least, hadn't hit this particular problem.
I was using aptitude. By switching to apt-get I was able to start installing.
I wasn't able to finish, but that is another problem. I got a load of 404s. I am assuming eagerness by many to try the new rc combined with low bandwidth, so shall try at daily intervals for a bit.
Lisi
On Tuesday 18 of November 2014 23:06:52 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 02 September 2014 16:20:55 Slávek Banko wrote:
Dne út 2. září 2014 Lisi Reisz napsal(a):
Slávek -
Should this be:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14
for Linux Mint 17?
Thanks, Lisi
P.S. Yes, I know I could suck it and see, but I am struggling so much with being unable to see the awful MATE that I want to make as few errors as possible while trying to render Mint visible - and therefore usable.
Yes, Mint 17 is based on Ubuntu Trusty, so given APT sources should work correctly.
I have been struggling with the awful Linux Mint and MATE ever since. I felt that I must move beyond my comfort zone. Debian and TDE is so easy and so familiar. So for my new box for playing streaming media on my television I installed Linux Mint 17 with Mate.
I have made myself give it a fair chance. But I can stand it no longer. So I bit the bullet, edited my sources.list, updated and tried to install TDE 14.
This is the result:
<quote> The following packages have unmet dependencies: tdeprint-trinity : Conflicts: foomatic-db-compressed-ppds but 20140410-0ubuntu1 is installed. The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
Remove the following packages:
foomatic-db-compressed-ppdsKeep the following packages at their current version:
kubuntu-desktop-trinity [Not Installed]</quote>
Help!!
I hope that I have copied and pasted enough. As I say, I am struggling. Mate, anyhow in its Linux Mint version, is almost invisible. (To me, at any rate. But I can't use anyone else's eyes. ;-) )
I could, of course, simply wipe the lot and install my beloved Wheezy and TDE 3.13.2.2. But that would be defeatist.
Thanks, Lisi
To return to the beginning of issues:
Definition of conflict with foomatic-db-compressed-ppds I see as a big problem. Many other DE has it as a dependency and TDE because of this makes it quite complicated concurrent installation with another DE.
If I understand well, the only effect is that with this package does not work the setup printer queue in TDE Control Center? However, the user can still set up the printer using the CUPS web interface. It is really useful to define this conflict package?
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On Tuesday 18 of November 2014 23:06:52 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 02 September 2014 16:20:55 Slávek Banko wrote:
Dne út 2. září 2014 Lisi Reisz napsal(a):
Slávek -
Should this be:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14
for Linux Mint 17?
Thanks, Lisi
P.S. Yes, I know I could suck it and see, but I am struggling so
much
with being unable to see the awful MATE that I want to make as few errors as possible while trying to render Mint visible - and
therefore
usable.
Yes, Mint 17 is based on Ubuntu Trusty, so given APT sources should
work
correctly.
I have been struggling with the awful Linux Mint and MATE ever since. I felt that I must move beyond my comfort zone. Debian and TDE is so easy and so familiar. So for my new box for playing streaming media on my television I installed Linux Mint 17 with Mate.
I have made myself give it a fair chance. But I can stand it no longer. So I bit the bullet, edited my sources.list, updated and tried to install TDE 14.
This is the result:
<quote> The following packages have unmet dependencies: tdeprint-trinity : Conflicts: foomatic-db-compressed-ppds but 20140410-0ubuntu1 is installed. The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
Remove the following packages:
foomatic-db-compressed-ppdsKeep the following packages at their current version:
kubuntu-desktop-trinity [Not Installed]</quote>
Help!!
I hope that I have copied and pasted enough. As I say, I am struggling. Mate, anyhow in its Linux Mint version, is almost invisible. (To me, at any rate. But I can't use anyone else's eyes. ;-) )
I could, of course, simply wipe the lot and install my beloved Wheezy and TDE 3.13.2.2. But that would be defeatist.
Thanks, Lisi
To return to the beginning of issues:
Definition of conflict with foomatic-db-compressed-ppds I see as a big problem. Many other DE has it as a dependency and TDE because of this makes it quite complicated concurrent installation with another DE.
If I understand well, the only effect is that with this package does not work the setup printer queue in TDE Control Center? However, the user can still set up the printer using the CUPS web interface. It is really useful to define this conflict package?
I thought we had a bug report open on tdeprint not supporting compressed PPDs but now I can't find it. If you can't find it either then a new report should be filed.
Regarding the conflict, the problem is tdeprint will silently fail if the compressed PPDs are installed (it thinks there are no PPDs on the system in this case). At minimum an error message stating that the uncompressed PPDs need to be installed should be added to tdeprint so that the user knows *why* tdeprint is failing. There should also be a manual "Rebuild Driver Database" button added somewhere in tdeprint.
I wonder how hard it would be to add compressed PPD support. It seems that tdeprint would just need to use the gzip ioslave instead of reading each PPD directly...
Tim
On Wednesday 19 of November 2014 23:06:00 Timothy Pearson wrote:
On Tuesday 18 of November 2014 23:06:52 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 02 September 2014 16:20:55 Slávek Banko wrote:
Dne út 2. září 2014 Lisi Reisz napsal(a):
Slávek -
Should this be:
deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14 deb-src http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb trusty deps-r14 main-r14
for Linux Mint 17?
Thanks, Lisi
P.S. Yes, I know I could suck it and see, but I am struggling so
much
with being unable to see the awful MATE that I want to make as few errors as possible while trying to render Mint visible - and
therefore
usable.
Yes, Mint 17 is based on Ubuntu Trusty, so given APT sources should
work
correctly.
I have been struggling with the awful Linux Mint and MATE ever since. I felt that I must move beyond my comfort zone. Debian and TDE is so easy and so familiar. So for my new box for playing streaming media on my television I installed Linux Mint 17 with Mate.
I have made myself give it a fair chance. But I can stand it no longer. So I bit the bullet, edited my sources.list, updated and tried to install TDE 14.
This is the result:
<quote> The following packages have unmet dependencies: tdeprint-trinity : Conflicts: foomatic-db-compressed-ppds but 20140410-0ubuntu1 is installed. The following actions will resolve these dependencies:
Remove the following packages:
foomatic-db-compressed-ppdsKeep the following packages at their current version:
kubuntu-desktop-trinity [Not Installed]</quote>
Help!!
I hope that I have copied and pasted enough. As I say, I am struggling. Mate, anyhow in its Linux Mint version, is almost invisible. (To me, at any rate. But I can't use anyone else's eyes. ;-) )
I could, of course, simply wipe the lot and install my beloved Wheezy and TDE 3.13.2.2. But that would be defeatist.
Thanks, Lisi
To return to the beginning of issues:
Definition of conflict with foomatic-db-compressed-ppds I see as a big problem. Many other DE has it as a dependency and TDE because of this makes it quite complicated concurrent installation with another DE.
If I understand well, the only effect is that with this package does not work the setup printer queue in TDE Control Center? However, the user can still set up the printer using the CUPS web interface. It is really useful to define this conflict package?
I thought we had a bug report open on tdeprint not supporting compressed PPDs but now I can't find it. If you can't find it either then a new report should be filed.
Regarding the conflict, the problem is tdeprint will silently fail if the compressed PPDs are installed (it thinks there are no PPDs on the system in this case). At minimum an error message stating that the uncompressed PPDs need to be installed should be added to tdeprint so that the user knows *why* tdeprint is failing. There should also be a manual "Rebuild Driver Database" button added somewhere in tdeprint.
I wonder how hard it would be to add compressed PPD support. It seems that tdeprint would just need to use the gzip ioslave instead of reading each PPD directly...
Tim
Corresponding bug is 697: http://bugs.trinitydesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=697
If I remember correctly, the problem is that PPD is not compressed as individual gzip files, but "embedded" in the driver command that is used to obtain a specific ppd. See: /usr/sbin/lpinfo --make-and-model '.' -m
-
ant -
Felmon Davis -
Lisi Reisz -
Michael . -
Michele Calgaro -
Slávek Banko -
Timothy Pearson