Hi everyone! First of all, I would like to say a big thank you to the persons making Trinity possible!
In PCLinuxOS, between different window manager and desktop environment, the layout of how apps are classified is very similar, while Trinity has its own apps classification, which is the same as KDE3. Debian also has an apps classification that is common across almost all WM and DE.
I have seen somewhere that the next release of TDE will be freedesktop.org compliant. Does it means that TDE will adopt this new way of organizing apps? I would like to say that I prefer the new method of organizing the K menu than the one used in TDE. As an example, let's look at these 3 menu sub-levels: System, Utilities and Settings. These categories are almost overlapping in each other and it ends up that something that would be better placed in Settings ends up being in System or in Utilities. For this reason, I prefer to use the KickOff menu instead of the classic menu in Trinity, because I just have to type the name of the program I want to start in the search bar at the top, and it ends up being faster than trying to find where is the program I want to start.
Of course, the new way of menu classification is not 100% perfect, but I would say that, in my opinion, has made it a little more simple to use.
Would it be a good idea to make an option in the menu configuration program to let the users choose between the Trinity way of organizing the K menu (as in KDE3) and the new way of organizing the K menu (as in KDE4 and all the others DE and WM)?
So, what do you think about it?
Have a nice day! -Alexandre
On Sunday 24 February 2013 13:45:20 Alexandre Couture wrote:
So, what do you think about it?
Sorry, Alexandre, but Yuk! I intensely dislike that menu structure. In fact it is one the (many) reasons that I stick with Trinity. I find the new style menus ghastly.
I have commented before on your apparent prefernec for KDE 4. There must be something that you like in Trinity. If not, why do you use it?
Lisi
On Sunday 24 February 2013 13:45:20 Alexandre Couture wrote:
So, what do you think about it?
Sorry, Alexandre, but Yuk! I intensely dislike that menu structure. In fact it is one the (many) reasons that I stick with Trinity. I find the new style menus ghastly.
Woo! There is nothing to intensely dislike in it. It is certainly not a very big issue! I can clearly tell that you haven't read all I wrote, just by the special way you reply to it. Please read it again...
I have commented before on your apparent prefernec for KDE 4. There must be something that you like in Trinity. If not, why do you use it?
Lisi
Thank you for your input! Yet again, if you have read correctly all I wrote before, you would know how much I appreciate the fact that TDE is a 100% complete and lightweight desktop environment that is well suited for older computer, as well as newer computers.
I am putting effort in doing a complete remaster of PCLinuxOS and I make it available to everyone, not just for me... It requires much more work to make a remaster that works for everyone, not just for my own computer. I could have kept it just for me, but I decided to give something to the TDE community to thank them for making TDE possible.
-Alexandre
On Sunday 24 February 2013 15:06:05 Alexandre Couture wrote:
Sorry, Alexandre, but Yuk! I intensely dislike that menu structure. In fact it is one the (many) reasons that I stick with Trinity. I find the new style menus ghastly.
Woo! There is nothing to intensely dislike in it. It is certainly not a very big issue! I can clearly tell that you haven't read all I wrote, just by the special way you reply to it. Please read it again...
If there is nothing for me to dislike, then there is nothing for you to like.
I had read what you wrote, although I have also read it again since you asked me to. You make me feel very defensive. You appear to be dead set on destroying Trinity's distinctiveness and making it exactly like KDE4. There are other lightweight DEs. Why pick on Trinity?
I am putting effort in doing a complete remaster of PCLinuxOS and I make it available to everyone, not just for me... It requires much more work to make a remaster that works for everyone, not just for my own computer. I could have kept it just for me, but I decided to give something to the TDE community to thank them for making TDE possible.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. That you are not just a free loader? That this may benefit some people I would not attempt to deny. But it doesn't affect me. If I don't like it, I don't have to use it. If you succeed in messing TDE up, it will affect me.
I recognise that sadly Trinity is probably buying me time, and that in the end I shall probably have to choose from the other available offerings. But I am not happy that you should appear to have the sole aim of making Trinity as similar to KDE4 as possible. Surely one out of LXDE, XFCE, the various window makers has a menu you like?
And as you say, your remastering is under your control. Make the menus as nasty as you like. But I dislike KDE4, and the menu is one of the things that I very much dislike - and you did ask.
Lisi
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:39:04 +0000 Lisi Reisz lisi.reisz@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday 24 February 2013 15:06:05 Alexandre Couture wrote:
Sorry, Alexandre, but Yuk! I intensely dislike that menu structure. In fact it is one the (many) reasons that I stick with Trinity. I find the new style menus ghastly.
Woo! There is nothing to intensely dislike in it. It is certainly not a very big issue! I can clearly tell that you haven't read all I wrote, just by the special way you reply to it. Please read it again...
If there is nothing for me to dislike, then there is nothing for you to like.
I had read what you wrote, although I have also read it again since you asked me to. You make me feel very defensive. You appear to be dead set on destroying Trinity's distinctiveness and making it exactly like KDE4. There are other lightweight DEs. Why pick on Trinity?
I am putting effort in doing a complete remaster of PCLinuxOS and I make it available to everyone, not just for me... It requires much more work to make a remaster that works for everyone, not just for my own computer. I could have kept it just for me, but I decided to give something to the TDE community to thank them for making TDE possible.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. That you are not just a free loader? That this may benefit some people I would not attempt to deny. But it doesn't affect me. If I don't like it, I don't have to use it. If you succeed in messing TDE up, it will affect me.
I recognise that sadly Trinity is probably buying me time, and that in the end I shall probably have to choose from the other available offerings. But I am not happy that you should appear to have the sole aim of making Trinity as similar to KDE4 as possible. Surely one out of LXDE, XFCE, the various window makers has a menu you like?
And as you say, your remastering is under your control. Make the menus as nasty as you like. But I dislike KDE4, and the menu is one of the things that I very much dislike - and you did ask.
Lisi
Well said, Lisi. I'm seeing the exact same thing...that Alexandre keeps saying/doing something to make Trinity more KDE4-like than what it's meant to be. If it's no good to keep it as close to its original purpose and design, why have it at all?
(I didn't trim because everything Lisi covered needed to be seen again, IMHO)
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Sunday 24 February 2013 15:06:05 Alexandre Couture wrote:
Sorry, Alexandre, but Yuk! I intensely dislike that menu structure. In fact it is one the (many) reasons that I stick with Trinity. I find the new style menus ghastly.
Woo! There is nothing to intensely dislike in it. It is certainly not a very big issue! I can clearly tell that you haven't read all I wrote, just by the special way you reply to it. Please read it again...
If there is nothing for me to dislike, then there is nothing for you to like. [...]
what puzzles me about this particular leg of the debate is that the only thing that Alexendre mentioned that he thought was missing from 'Classic' was a utility for searching with tab completion. this might be a good idea and probably not too difficult to add to 'Classic'.
I tend to agree that it is hard to know what's going to be in 'settings', 'system' and so on but one can tidy that up oneself. I don't recall kde4 and whether it handles this any better.
on these scores, tidying up the arrangement and introducing a search bar, it hardly seems worth the heat of controversy evidenced here but I must be missing something.
(leaving the rest of your post in for context.)
F.
I had read what you wrote, although I have also read it again since you asked me to. You make me feel very defensive. You appear to be dead set on destroying Trinity's distinctiveness and making it exactly like KDE4. There are other lightweight DEs. Why pick on Trinity?
I am putting effort in doing a complete remaster of PCLinuxOS and I make it available to everyone, not just for me... It requires much more work to make a remaster that works for everyone, not just for my own computer. I could have kept it just for me, but I decided to give something to the TDE community to thank them for making TDE possible.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. That you are not just a free loader? That this may benefit some people I would not attempt to deny. But it doesn't affect me. If I don't like it, I don't have to use it. If you succeed in messing TDE up, it will affect me.
I recognise that sadly Trinity is probably buying me time, and that in the end I shall probably have to choose from the other available offerings. But I am not happy that you should appear to have the sole aim of making Trinity as similar to KDE4 as possible. Surely one out of LXDE, XFCE, the various window makers has a menu you like?
And as you say, your remastering is under your control. Make the menus as nasty as you like. But I dislike KDE4, and the menu is one of the things that I very much dislike - and you did ask.
Lisi
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Thank you Alexandre for making a version of PCLinuxOS with TDE. I agree that it's best to add the option to switch between the KDE4 style menu & TDE classic style menu. This will not damage TDE. It is just adding another option (an option that I & others will enjoy using, if you add it).
Cheers,
Elcaset
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Felmon Davis davisf@union.edu wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Sunday 24 February 2013 15:06:05 Alexandre Couture wrote:
Sorry, Alexandre, but Yuk! I intensely dislike that menu structure. In
fact it is one the (many) reasons that I stick with Trinity. I find the new style menus ghastly.
Woo! There is nothing to intensely dislike in it. It is certainly not a very big issue! I can clearly tell that you haven't read all I wrote, just by the special way you reply to it. Please read it again...
If there is nothing for me to dislike, then there is nothing for you to like. [...]
what puzzles me about this particular leg of the debate is that the only thing that Alexendre mentioned that he thought was missing from 'Classic' was a utility for searching with tab completion. this might be a good idea and probably not too difficult to add to 'Classic'.
I tend to agree that it is hard to know what's going to be in 'settings', 'system' and so on but one can tidy that up oneself. I don't recall kde4 and whether it handles this any better.
on these scores, tidying up the arrangement and introducing a search bar, it hardly seems worth the heat of controversy evidenced here but I must be missing something.
(leaving the rest of your post in for context.)
F.
I had read what you wrote, although I have also read it again since you asked me to. You make me feel very defensive. You appear to be dead set on destroying Trinity's distinctiveness and making it exactly like KDE4. There are other lightweight DEs. Why pick on Trinity?
I am putting effort in doing a complete remaster of PCLinuxOS and I make
it available to everyone, not just for me... It requires much more work to make a remaster that works for everyone, not just for my own computer. I could have kept it just for me, but I decided to give something to the TDE community to thank them for making TDE possible.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. That you are not just a free loader? That this may benefit some people I would not attempt to deny. But it doesn't affect me. If I don't like it, I don't have to use it. If you succeed in messing TDE up, it will affect me.
I recognise that sadly Trinity is probably buying me time, and that in the end I shall probably have to choose from the other available offerings. But I am not happy that you should appear to have the sole aim of making Trinity as similar to KDE4 as possible. Surely one out of LXDE, XFCE, the various window makers has a menu you like?
And as you say, your remastering is under your control. Make the menus as nasty as you like. But I dislike KDE4, and the menu is one of the things that I very much dislike - and you did ask.
Lisi
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-- Felmon Davis
Well, if I called the wrong number, why did you answer the phone? -- Thurber
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On Sunday 24 February 2013 02:42:40 pm C W wrote:
Thank you Alexandre for making a version of PCLinuxOS with TDE. I agree that it's best to add the option to switch between the KDE4 style menu & TDE classic style menu. This will not damage TDE. It is just adding another option (an option that I & others will enjoy using, if you add it).
Cheers,
Elcaset
+1
Choice is good, and I appreciate Alexandre's efforts.
Speaking of choice, :-) it would be nice if you (Alexandre) left Konqueror available as a file manager, and not just Dolphin. It was certainly not hard to add it back, but why ever remove it in the first place?
Alexandre, thanks again for this version of PCLinuxOS with TDE.
Best regards,
Andy
On Sunday 24 February 2013 02:42:40 pm C W wrote:
Thank you Alexandre for making a version of PCLinuxOS with TDE. I agree that it's best to add the option to switch between the KDE4 style menu & TDE classic style menu. This will not damage TDE. It is just adding another option (an option that I & others will enjoy using, if you add it).
I am part of these ''others'' who will enjoy it too :)
Cheers,
Elcaset
+1
Choice is good, and I appreciate Alexandre's efforts.
TDE is all about choice, and the fact that it has tons of options is probably why it is still loved!
Speaking of choice, :-) it would be nice if you (Alexandre) left Konqueror available as a file manager, and not just Dolphin. It was certainly not hard to add it back, but why ever remove it in the first place?
Ok, there is no problem with this: The only thing that you need to change is to replace Dolphin by Konqueror in the shortcuts! And Konqueror is still there! The reason I used Dolphin is simply because I like its side-bar with previews and information about the files. One thing it lacks if you compare it with the KDE4 version is the tabs, but I still like it!
Alexandre, thanks again for this version of PCLinuxOS with TDE.
Best regards,
Andy
Thank you! I think that for the next release of my livecd, I will probably make 2 versions of it: A version similar to what it is now and a version with all the apps stripped out and with plain vanilla TDE style, that I hope would fit on a CD.
One thing that should be remembered is that I am not a dev. So, I will try to see if I can change some configs to get a K menu with a different structure, but it is probably more in the way TDE organize the menu that it should be checked.
-Alexandre
"I think that for the next release of my livecd, I will probably make 2 versions of it: A version similar to what it is now and a version with all the apps stripped out and with plain vanilla TDE style, that I hope would fit on a CD."
That sounds like a great approach that should keep just about everybody happy.
Thanks,
Elcaset
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Alexandre Couture ac586133@hotmail.comwrote:
On Sunday 24 February 2013 02:42:40 pm C W wrote:
Thank you Alexandre for making a version of PCLinuxOS with TDE. I agree that it's best to add the option to switch between the KDE4 style menu
&
TDE classic style menu. This will not damage TDE. It is just adding another option (an option that I & others will enjoy using, if you add it).
I am part of these ''others'' who will enjoy it too :)
Cheers,
Elcaset
+1
Choice is good, and I appreciate Alexandre's efforts.
TDE is all about choice, and the fact that it has tons of options is probably why it is still loved!
Speaking of choice, :-) it would be nice if you (Alexandre) left Konqueror available as a file manager, and not just Dolphin. It was certainly not hard to add it back,
but
why ever remove it in the first place?
Ok, there is no problem with this: The only thing that you need to change is to replace Dolphin by Konqueror in the shortcuts! And Konqueror is still there! The reason I used Dolphin is simply because I like its side-bar with previews and information about the files. One thing it lacks if you compare it with the KDE4 version is the tabs, but I still like it!
Alexandre, thanks again for this version of PCLinuxOS with TDE.
Best regards,
Andy
Thank you! I think that for the next release of my livecd, I will probably make 2 versions of it: A version similar to what it is now and a version with all the apps stripped out and with plain vanilla TDE style, that I hope would fit on a CD.
One thing that should be remembered is that I am not a dev. So, I will try to see if I can change some configs to get a K menu with a different structure, but it is probably more in the way TDE organize the menu that it should be checked.
-Alexandre
Alexandre, thank you for your efforts at releasing Trinity for PCLinuxOS. But, please read on.
On 25/02/13 07:06, Andy wrote:
On Sunday 24 February 2013 02:42:40 pm C W wrote:
Thank you Alexandre for making a version of PCLinuxOS with TDE. I agree that it's best to add the option to switch between the KDE4 style menu & TDE classic style menu. This will not damage TDE. It is just adding another option (an option that I & others will enjoy using, if you add it).
Cheers,
Elcaset
+1
Choice is good, and I appreciate Alexandre's efforts.
Choice is bad. Or rather, having *too much choice* is bad. And it must be *informed* choice. This is not informed choice.
Too much choice is called *complication*, and it is bad for business, it is bad for mental health, bad for users, and bad for developers.
http://www.businessinsider.com/too-many-choices-are-bad-for-business-2012-12... http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3290
Alexandre has added an option to Trinity to support another option. Has he written the documentation to explain that option? Has he written the tests to ensure that all Trinity software works correctly whichever option the user chooses?
I expect not. So by adding this choice, Trinity now is probably a little worse, not better. A little worse documented, a little worse tested.
Or rather, I should say he has added an option to *his* version on Trinity. Now I have uncertainty and doubt, not choice. If I install Trinity, which Trinity will I get? Will it be Trinity that feels like KDE 3 with Konqueror, or Trinity that feels like KDE 4 with Dolphin? What other bits have been removed? How will I know before I spend my valuable time and effort downloading and installing it?
Where is my choice if I do not know what I will get?
Alexandre, if you want to fork Trinity to make a mutant hybrid that's half KDE 3 and half KDE 4, then give people real choice by giving it a new name and not claim it is Trinity. Or you are welcome to try to convince the Trinity developer team to accept his modifications, so that they apply to Trinity no matter where I get it from. But having Trinity be different depending on who you get it from is a *bad thing*, and it speaks badly for the Trinity project.
If I have a bad experience with Trinity, is it because Trinity is broken, or because I've installed a bad modification? If I recommend Trinity to colleagues and friends, and they install "the wrong version", will they try again with "the right version", or will they just dismiss Trinity as broken and me as having no credibility?
Choice is bad. Or rather, having *too much choice* is bad. And it must be *informed* choice. This is not informed choice.
Too much choice is called *complication*, and it is bad for business, it is bad for mental health, bad for users, and bad for developers.
http://www.businessinsider.com/too-many-choices-are-bad-for-business-2012-12... http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3290
Alexandre has added an option to Trinity to support another option. Has he written the documentation to explain that option? Has he written the tests to ensure that all Trinity software works correctly whichever option the user chooses?
I expect not. So by adding this choice, Trinity now is probably a little worse, not better. A little worse documented, a little worse tested.
Or rather, I should say he has added an option to *his* version on Trinity. Now I have uncertainty and doubt, not choice. If I install Trinity, which Trinity will I get? Will it be Trinity that feels like KDE 3 with Konqueror, or Trinity that feels like KDE 4 with Dolphin? What other bits have been removed? How will I know before I spend my valuable time and effort downloading and installing it?
Where is my choice if I do not know what I will get?
Alexandre, if you want to fork Trinity to make a mutant hybrid that's half KDE 3 and half KDE 4, then give people real choice by giving it a new name and not claim it is Trinity. Or you are welcome to try to convince the Trinity developer team to accept his modifications, so that they apply to Trinity no matter where I get it from. But having Trinity be different depending on who you get it from is a *bad thing*, and it speaks badly for the Trinity project.
If I have a bad experience with Trinity, is it because Trinity is broken, or because I've installed a bad modification? If I recommend Trinity to colleagues and friends, and they install "the wrong version", will they try again with "the right version", or will they just dismiss Trinity as broken and me as having no credibility?
-- Steven
Well that's getting a real joke! Once again! I am not a software developer. I don't know how to make a computer program. And you tell me that I have added an option to TDE? Certainly not.
It is funny that those who always write against what I say are never here on this mailing list to help users who are experiencing problems. They are not TDE devs too. They are only here to complain about what I say, in a non-constructive way. They are not making things available for TDE.
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down like what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so whe should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
-Alexandre
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 20:32:42 -0500 Alexandre Couture ac586133@hotmail.com wrote:
Choice is bad. Or rather, having *too much choice* is bad. And it must be *informed* choice. This is not informed choice.
Too much choice is called *complication*, and it is bad for business, it is bad for mental health, bad for users, and bad for developers.
http://www.businessinsider.com/too-many-choices-are-bad-for-business-2012-12... http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3290
Alexandre has added an option to Trinity to support another option. Has he written the documentation to explain that option? Has he written the tests to ensure that all Trinity software works correctly whichever option the user chooses?
I expect not. So by adding this choice, Trinity now is probably a little worse, not better. A little worse documented, a little worse tested.
Or rather, I should say he has added an option to *his* version on Trinity. Now I have uncertainty and doubt, not choice. If I install Trinity, which Trinity will I get? Will it be Trinity that feels like KDE 3 with Konqueror, or Trinity that feels like KDE 4 with Dolphin? What other bits have been removed? How will I know before I spend my valuable time and effort downloading and installing it?
Where is my choice if I do not know what I will get?
Alexandre, if you want to fork Trinity to make a mutant hybrid that's half KDE 3 and half KDE 4, then give people real choice by giving it a new name and not claim it is Trinity. Or you are welcome to try to convince the Trinity developer team to accept his modifications, so that they apply to Trinity no matter where I get it from. But having Trinity be different depending on who you get it from is a *bad thing*, and it speaks badly for the Trinity project.
If I have a bad experience with Trinity, is it because Trinity is broken, or because I've installed a bad modification? If I recommend Trinity to colleagues and friends, and they install "the wrong version", will they try again with "the right version", or will they just dismiss Trinity as broken and me as having no credibility?
-- Steven
Well that's getting a real joke! Once again! I am not a software developer. I don't know how to make a computer program. And you tell me that I have added an option to TDE? Certainly not.
It is funny that those who always write against what I say are never here on this mailing list to help users who are experiencing problems. They are not TDE devs too. They are only here to complain about what I say, in a non-constructive way. They are not making things available for TDE.
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down like what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so whe should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
-Alexandre
I think you're kind of missing the point of Trinity. It was to make it remain KDE3-like, which meant it did *NOT* have all the useless crud *ADDED* to it which turned it into the abortion known as KDE4. Adding more crud to Trinity doesn't make it or keep it Trinity. Making the old code work on the newer versions of linux OS's is the trick to having Trinity be a great DE...*NOT* adding and adding and adding more and more 'stuff'. Trinity should run nice and fast - like KDE3 used to, but when more and more stuff is added to it, there's no way it can possibly run as fast as a leaner DE. I'm sure the dev's are having a hard enough time just with the old code making it work, much less adding more junk to it and still make it lean and mean like the old KDE3 was.
It's great you want to help and add things, but the way you're going about it isn't in the spirit of keeping it Trinity, IMHO.
Oh, and using that lame excuse that those who aren't 'contributing' aren't worth spit is, well...lame. There's many thousands upon thousands of people who wish they could, but just don't have the skills or the means to learn the skills to help. Even just writing help files, one can't be a simpleton because it has to be written correctly, not thrown together by someone like me who doesn't know how to write correctly enough to make the files not look like linux is made by and for simpletons. It's a pet peave of mine when people use that lame excuse to try and shame others into not speaking their minds about something and it's wrong when people use it. Opinions of things going on around them and things that affect them are what drives us as humans, not belittling or telling others their opinions suck because they're not doing as much to a project as you are.
On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down like what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so whe should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
"Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling or bloat? It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I didn't even like to sample them.
I had no idea the TDE community was this hostile. Like some other folks in here, I love both TDE & KDE4. They have different strengths. You don't have to only use one & say the other sucks. That's childish.
Cheers,
Elcaset
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the
compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down like what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so whe should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
"Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling or bloat? It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I didn't even like to sample them. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
I had no idea the TDE community was this hostile. Like some other folks in here, I love both TDE & KDE4. They have different strengths. You don't have to only use one & say the other sucks. That's childish.
Cheers,
Elcaset
from my point of view it is to be expected that people have strong opinions about such matters, including that this or that "sucks", nothing childish about it depending on their reasons.
however I think we should make sure that in the expression of opinions we don't attack individuals whose opinions differ. I'm not sure that's been done yet but maybe approaching the margins.
I find the discussion interesting and informative. as far as I can see, the intentions certainly are good and if there are good questions and good answers, who's the loser?
F.
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the
compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down like what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so whe should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
"Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling or bloat? It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I didn't even like to sample them. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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One thing I would like to point out is that the TDE project wouldn't exist without the KDE project. Can't we give the KDE project at least a little credit as having created KDE 3 so that TDE could be forked?
Thanks,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:23 AM, Felmon Davis davisf@union.edu wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
I had no idea the TDE community was this hostile. Like some other folks
in here, I love both TDE & KDE4. They have different strengths. You don't have to only use one & say the other sucks. That's childish.
Cheers,
Elcaset
from my point of view it is to be expected that people have strong opinions about such matters, including that this or that "sucks", nothing childish about it depending on their reasons.
however I think we should make sure that in the expression of opinions we don't attack individuals whose opinions differ. I'm not sure that's been done yet but maybe approaching the margins.
I find the discussion interesting and informative. as far as I can see, the intentions certainly are good and if there are good questions and good answers, who's the loser?
F.
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the
compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down like what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so whe should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
"Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling or bloat? It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I didn't even like to sample them. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Have preferences, not expectations.
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Also, statements in this thread like "the abortion known as KDE4" doesn't sound to me like it was made with good intentions.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:35 AM, C W elcaseti@gmail.com wrote:
One thing I would like to point out is that the TDE project wouldn't exist without the KDE project. Can't we give the KDE project at least a little credit as having created KDE 3 so that TDE could be forked?
Thanks,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:23 AM, Felmon Davis davisf@union.edu wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
I had no idea the TDE community was this hostile. Like some other folks
in here, I love both TDE & KDE4. They have different strengths. You don't have to only use one & say the other sucks. That's childish.
Cheers,
Elcaset
from my point of view it is to be expected that people have strong opinions about such matters, including that this or that "sucks", nothing childish about it depending on their reasons.
however I think we should make sure that in the expression of opinions we don't attack individuals whose opinions differ. I'm not sure that's been done yet but maybe approaching the margins.
I find the discussion interesting and informative. as far as I can see, the intentions certainly are good and if there are good questions and good answers, who's the loser?
F.
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the
compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down like what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so whe should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
"Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling or bloat? It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I didn't even like to sample them. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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-- Felmon Davis
Have preferences, not expectations.
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On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
Also, statements in this thread like "the abortion known as KDE4" doesn't sound to me like it was made with good intentions.
I can't imagine why not. the poster is giving a strong warning, no ill intent there. some will judge the warning exaggerated, some judge it apt.
just seems like there are just different standards of rhetoric. people express themselves differently.
anyway, I am interested in the discussion of the relative merits of the two or so approaches, especially if it goes into specifics.
F.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:35 AM, C W elcaseti@gmail.com wrote:
One thing I would like to point out is that the TDE project wouldn't exist without the KDE project. Can't we give the KDE project at least a little credit as having created KDE 3 so that TDE could be forked?
Thanks,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:23 AM, Felmon Davis davisf@union.edu wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
I had no idea the TDE community was this hostile. Like some other folks
in here, I love both TDE & KDE4. They have different strengths. You don't have to only use one & say the other sucks. That's childish.
Cheers,
Elcaset
from my point of view it is to be expected that people have strong opinions about such matters, including that this or that "sucks", nothing childish about it depending on their reasons.
however I think we should make sure that in the expression of opinions we don't attack individuals whose opinions differ. I'm not sure that's been done yet but maybe approaching the margins.
I find the discussion interesting and informative. as far as I can see, the intentions certainly are good and if there are good questions and good answers, who's the loser?
F.
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the
compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down like what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so whe should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
"Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling or bloat? It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I didn't even like to sample them. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
It makes the TDE community look bad (and certainly not inviting to growing our ranks) when it is so popular to be hostile towards anything other than TDE. You expect there to be a few jerks in any community, but when the jerk percentage gets too high, you're keeping others away. The community won't grow.
I'm not talking about being opinionated. Probably everyone here is pretty opinionated about software freedom, & other unrelated things. I'm talking about coming off as a jerk.
I realize, we'll probably just end up agreeing to disagree about all of this, but this stuff seems pretty obvious to me.
cheers,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:53 AM, Felmon Davis davisf@union.edu wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
Also, statements in this thread like "the abortion known as KDE4" doesn't
sound to me like it was made with good intentions.
I can't imagine why not. the poster is giving a strong warning, no ill intent there. some will judge the warning exaggerated, some judge it apt.
just seems like there are just different standards of rhetoric. people express themselves differently.
anyway, I am interested in the discussion of the relative merits of the two or so approaches, especially if it goes into specifics.
F.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:35 AM, C W elcaseti@gmail.com wrote:
One thing I would like to point out is that the TDE project wouldn't
exist without the KDE project. Can't we give the KDE project at least a little credit as having created KDE 3 so that TDE could be forked?
Thanks,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:23 AM, Felmon Davis davisf@union.edu wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
I had no idea the TDE community was this hostile. Like some other folks
in here, I love both TDE & KDE4. They have different strengths. You don't have to only use one & say the other sucks. That's childish.
Cheers,
Elcaset
from my point of view it is to be expected that people have strong opinions about such matters, including that this or that "sucks", nothing childish about it depending on their reasons.
however I think we should make sure that in the expression of opinions we don't attack individuals whose opinions differ. I'm not sure that's been done yet but maybe approaching the margins.
I find the discussion interesting and informative. as far as I can see, the intentions certainly are good and if there are good questions and good answers, who's the loser?
F.
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net
wrote:
On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the
compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down > like > what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a > nice > addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so > whe > should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way. > > > "Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling or bloat? It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I didn't even like to sample them. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
-- Felmon Davis
Don't shoot until you're sure you both aren't on the same side.
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It makes the TDE community look bad (and certainly not inviting to growing our ranks) when it is so popular to be hostile towards anything other than TDE. You expect there to be a few jerks in any community, but when the jerk percentage gets too high, you're keeping others away. The community won't grow.
I'm not talking about being opinionated. Probably everyone here is pretty opinionated about software freedom, & other unrelated things. I'm talking about coming off as a jerk.
I realize, we'll probably just end up agreeing to disagree about all of this, but this stuff seems pretty obvious to me.
cheers,
Elcaset
+1. Please keep the KDE/Gnome/etc. flaming off this list.
Think of it this way: would you so loudly criticize another system such as Mac OS X, or would you simply state that such a system was designed with a different user in mind, not for you, limited, etc.? KDE and other desktop offerings should be treated with at least some degree of respect--they are not competitors, but rather have a different idea of how people should be using their computers. An idea that seems to be rather popular at the moment I might add, no matter how much I personally disagree with it. ;-)
Also, please remember that there is technology in KDE that might be useful to us in the future; not everything in the KDE project is incompatible with the TDE project's goals.
Tim
On Monday 25 February 2013 14:12:08 C W wrote:
It makes the TDE community look bad (and certainly not inviting to growing our ranks) when it is so popular to be hostile towards anything other than TDE.
Who is hostile to anything other than TDE?? As one of the "hostile" people, I am not hostile to anything other than TDE. I _am_ hostile to destroying the essence of TDE. I have also been convinced during this discussion that TDE can't be allowed to fragment to the extent that there are umpteen different DEs, all called TDE. Alexandre's version may well be exactly what some people want. I would not deny that. But it may still not actually be TDE.
TDE is what it is because some highly competent people wanted to continue using KDE3 and did not want to use KDE4. TDE with parts of KDE4 is not TDE as originally conceived.
Lisi
On Monday 25 February 2013 13:35:53 C W wrote:
One thing I would like to point out is that the TDE project wouldn't exist without the KDE project. Can't we give the KDE project at least a little credit as having created KDE 3 so that TDE could be forked?
It is one thing to give it some credit, and as you say, credit is due. But it is another to try to destroy the very essence of Trinity.
Perhaps the best solution, for those who want a more KDE4-like Trinity, would be for it to be a separate fork as has been suggested. I am not just anti-KDE4, although I do dislike almost everything about it, in particular what I see as its environment. I wouldn't want Trinity turned into GNOME either. But at the moment no-one is trying to turn it into GNOME.
There is not much point in asking what people think, only to take umbrage if you don't like the reply.
Lisi
On 26/02/13 00:35, C W wrote:
One thing I would like to point out is that the TDE project wouldn't exist without the KDE project. Can't we give the KDE project at least a little credit as having created KDE 3 so that TDE could be forked?
That is completely irrelevant to anything. This is not a debate about giving credit to the KDE project. This is a discussion about three things:
1) Trinity was deliberately started to keep the old KDE 3 look and feel, when the KDE developers decided to change direction; the question becomes, should Trinity stay like KDE 3, or should it become like KDE 4?
2) How many user interface options are too many? Consistency in software is a good thing, just ask Apple. Too many options make an unusable, untestable mess. Just because a choice exists doesn't mean we have to offer it.
3) Is it a good thing for Trinity to have a different look and feel depending on where you get it from? Alexandre has released Trinity for PCLinuxOS, which is great. But he's also unilaterally changed the look and feel by default so that PCLinuxOS Trinity is different from Trinity elsewhere. Should we encourage that, or should we insist (as much as can be reasonably expected) that Trinity will look and feel the same whether you are running it under Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu, SUSE, Linux Mint, PCLinuxOS, or even MacOS. (If that is possible.)
*My personal feelings* are:
- Trinity should be very conservative about moving away from the KDE 3 look and feel. I'm not suggesting that KDE 3 was "perfect" and never to change anything, but we should be cautious about changing what is the distinctive Trinity/KDE 3 look. If people want KDE 4, they have KDE 4. Trinity is for people who want KDE 3's look and feel.
- KDE 3, and Trinity, already have a bewildering array of configuration options. Adding new options adds complexity and confusion. We should resist the urge to pile even more options onto the software except where they bring real benefit.
- If Trinity is to become a serious player in the desktop environment ecosystem, it needs to have a consistent, and distinct, look and feel regardless of what distro you run it under.
Thank you for listening.
- Is it a good thing for Trinity to have a different look and feel
depending on where you get it from? Alexandre has released Trinity for PCLinuxOS, which is great. But he's also unilaterally changed the look and feel by default so that PCLinuxOS Trinity is different from Trinity elsewhere. Should we encourage that, or should we insist (as much as can be reasonably expected) that Trinity will look and feel the same whether you are running it under Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu, SUSE, Linux Mint, PCLinuxOS, or even MacOS. (If that is possible.)
This is a seriouse issue. From y professinal point of view it's a no-go. TDE has to have it's defined default appereance (which has to be well-defined somewhere). Otherwise it's "devide & conquer" played on TDE ... and you better invest your time somewhere else.
Just my 2 cent.
Nik
Le 25/02/2013 16:08, Mag. Dr. Nikolaus Klepp a écrit :
- Is it a good thing for Trinity to have a different look and feel
depending on where you get it from? Alexandre has released Trinity for PCLinuxOS, which is great. But he's also unilaterally changed the look and feel by default so that PCLinuxOS Trinity is different from Trinity elsewhere. Should we encourage that, or should we insist (as much as can be reasonably expected) that Trinity will look and feel the same whether you are running it under Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu, SUSE, Linux Mint, PCLinuxOS, or even MacOS. (If that is possible.)
This is a seriouse issue. From y professinal point of view it's a no-go. TDE has to have it's defined default appereance (which has to be well-defined somewhere). Otherwise it's "devide & conquer" played on TDE ... and you better invest your time somewhere else.
Just my 2 cent.
Nik
Hello, I see no problem at all with Alexandre's LiveCD. It is advertised as an unofficial PCLinuxOS spin, running a customized Trinity desktop. Maybe we should make these 2 informations more visibile on the LiveCD download page ?
Of course, all customizations he has made are not upstream. People can still install an official CD/DVD PCLinuxOS, then install Trinity from my repository instead of LiveCD. Then they will get the default appearance and settings.
When TDE 3.5.13.2 will be out, I will put the PCLinuxOS build in the official mirrors.
Francois
On Monday 25 February 2013 08:48:25 Steven D'Aprano wrote:
*My personal feelings* are:
- Trinity should be very conservative about moving away from the KDE 3 look and feel. I'm not suggesting that KDE 3 was "perfect" and never to change anything, but we should be cautious about changing what is the distinctive Trinity/KDE 3 look. If people want KDE 4, they have KDE 4. Trinity is for people who want KDE 3's look and feel.
I'm not sure that that is a universal truth. :-) My personal reason for moving from KDE4 to Trinity was because of the additional "features" that were forced on me. They excessively slowed down my machine, which is not a little entry-level one, making it frustrating to use. One of the things that I like most about KDE in general (3 or 4) is the customizability of its look-and-feel.
- KDE 3, and Trinity, already have a bewildering array of configuration options. Adding new options adds complexity and confusion. We should resist the urge to pile even more options onto the software except where they bring real benefit.
I wonder if OP's enhancements can be encapsulated in a separate theme? Then those who like them can switch to that theme, while others can use the one they prefer.
Leslie
On 25/02/13 12:32, Alexandre Couture wrote:
Well that's getting a real joke! Once again! I am not a software developer. I don't know how to make a computer program. And you tell me that I have added an option to TDE? Certainly not.
You have changed the default settings. That is what I mean by adding an option. My apologies for the confusion.
Alexandre, I am sorry that I have upset you. I think it is very important for us all to be grateful for your efforts at packaging Trinity. Thank you again.
But gratitude is not "all, or nothing". I believe that we should be thankful for your work in packaging Trinity, but *not* thankful that your package makes Trinity more like KDE 4, and less consistent with Trinity on other Linux distros.
Maybe the best solution to this issue is for one or more of the TDE purists (who want TDE to be exactly like KDE 3.5.10, as far as I can tell), to make a version of PCLOS with TDE & nothing borrowed from KDE4. The only downside to that I can think of would be possible fragmentation like Lisi mentioned.
Cheers,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano steve@pearwood.infowrote:
On 25/02/13 12:32, Alexandre Couture wrote:
Well that's getting a real joke! Once again!
I am not a software developer. I don't know how to make a computer program. And you tell me that I have added an option to TDE? Certainly not.
You have changed the default settings. That is what I mean by adding an option. My apologies for the confusion.
Alexandre, I am sorry that I have upset you. I think it is very important for us all to be grateful for your efforts at packaging Trinity. Thank you again.
But gratitude is not "all, or nothing". I believe that we should be thankful for your work in packaging Trinity, but *not* thankful that your package makes Trinity more like KDE 4, and less consistent with Trinity on other Linux distros.
-- Steven
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To clarify, I'm not suggesting that Alexandre (or anyone else) be encouraged to stop making his spin available to others. I am suggesting that someone else may want to make another spin of PCLOS TDE in addition to Alexandre's version.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 7:00 AM, C W elcaseti@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe the best solution to this issue is for one or more of the TDE purists (who want TDE to be exactly like KDE 3.5.10, as far as I can tell), to make a version of PCLOS with TDE & nothing borrowed from KDE4. The only downside to that I can think of would be possible fragmentation like Lisi mentioned.
Cheers,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano steve@pearwood.infowrote:
On 25/02/13 12:32, Alexandre Couture wrote:
Well that's getting a real joke! Once again!
I am not a software developer. I don't know how to make a computer program. And you tell me that I have added an option to TDE? Certainly not.
You have changed the default settings. That is what I mean by adding an option. My apologies for the confusion.
Alexandre, I am sorry that I have upset you. I think it is very important for us all to be grateful for your efforts at packaging Trinity. Thank you again.
But gratitude is not "all, or nothing". I believe that we should be thankful for your work in packaging Trinity, but *not* thankful that your package makes Trinity more like KDE 4, and less consistent with Trinity on other Linux distros.
-- Steven
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-- Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy http://www.freegeekseattle.org/ https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
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It seems to me that many distro projects customize their distros quite a bit, including the various DEs they use. This doesn't seem to result in driving away most of their users. At least not all of the time. Does the official KDE4 PCLOS still provide the option of swiching to kde3 style menu, or kde4 style menu? They used to. Maybe they still do. PCLOS still has a loyal following.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 7:10 AM, C W elcaseti@gmail.com wrote:
To clarify, I'm not suggesting that Alexandre (or anyone else) be encouraged to stop making his spin available to others. I am suggesting that someone else may want to make another spin of PCLOS TDE in addition to Alexandre's version.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 7:00 AM, C W elcaseti@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe the best solution to this issue is for one or more of the TDE purists (who want TDE to be exactly like KDE 3.5.10, as far as I can tell), to make a version of PCLOS with TDE & nothing borrowed from KDE4. The only downside to that I can think of would be possible fragmentation like Lisi mentioned.
Cheers,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano steve@pearwood.infowrote:
On 25/02/13 12:32, Alexandre Couture wrote:
Well that's getting a real joke! Once again!
I am not a software developer. I don't know how to make a computer program. And you tell me that I have added an option to TDE? Certainly not.
You have changed the default settings. That is what I mean by adding an option. My apologies for the confusion.
Alexandre, I am sorry that I have upset you. I think it is very important for us all to be grateful for your efforts at packaging Trinity. Thank you again.
But gratitude is not "all, or nothing". I believe that we should be thankful for your work in packaging Trinity, but *not* thankful that your package makes Trinity more like KDE 4, and less consistent with Trinity on other Linux distros.
-- Steven
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It is advertised as an unofficial PCLinuxOS spin, running a customized Trinity desktop.
I don't see Alexandre, or anyone else, making claims it is otherwise. What is the problem?
Although I don't get why anybody would prefer dolphin to konqueror and for me the default TDE menu is mostly fine.
I made also (not many) changes to default appearance in the (also unofficial and not claimed to be otherwise) ExeGNU Debian live images. However they were done mostly in a deb-packaged "theme" which can be changed (or completely uninstalled) with a few mouse clicks.
Francois Andriot wrote:
Hello, I see no problem at all with Alexandre's LiveCD. It is advertised as an unofficial PCLinuxOS spin, running a customized Trinity desktop.
Yes, it is exactly what it is, and nothing else.
Maybe we should make these 2 informations more visible on the LiveCD download page ?
Yes, it's a good idea!
Of course, all customizations he has made are not upstream. People can still install an official CD/DVD PCLinuxOS, then install Trinity from my repository instead of LiveCD. Then they will get the default appearance and settings.
When TDE 3.5.13.2 will be out, I will put the PCLinuxOS build in the official mirrors.
Francois
For the next release of my LiveCD, there will be 2 version: -A version similar to what it is now -A version that is only the base system with TDE and nothing else. I hope it would fit on a CD.
As of now, if you want a vanilla version of my remaster, install it (just hope your eyes won't bleed :) ) and after you have rebooted and made the first user, as a root, delete everything in /etc/skel/ Then, create a new user and re-login with a 100% vanilla TDE system.
By the way, the ISO of my remaster that is hosted on the TDE website is outdated and won't update correctly. PCLinuxOS changed the structure and the servers of their repos. The new version of my ISO (Jan 15, 2013) is ready out-of-the-box to use their new repos as it should and is fully updated.
Thanks! -Alexandre
By the way, the ISO of my remaster that is hosted on the TDE website is outdated and won't update correctly. PCLinuxOS changed the structure and the servers of their repos.
Personally I use only Debian. One of many reasons: install Debian one time only then only user error will prevent a clean upgrade path.
However:
Alexandre, I at least appreciate your efforts to produce a TDE live image (not many exist at all), although pclinuxos, dolphin and your menu layout are not for me. I know a little of how difficult it can be to get that just right and that to please everybody is not possible.
I also appreciate the efforts of official TDE in supporting different distros.
Even if TDE had resources to do "official" live images (as well as development for R14) there will still be some who will want to do that unofficially with their own idea of how it should be done. This is Linux. Everything I did with ExeGNU, including the installer and TDE-specific live-boot scripts, is GPL. Whoever wants to do their own build using those tools or their own is free to do so. If you do just don't expect everybody to like it.
I remember the first Debian image I built and posted here, one man rudely complained because I refused to add nonfree multimedia apps and codecs. He either did not notice, was too lazy or lacked the intelligence to use the included snapshot/remaster tool to make his own (least of all understand the ethics of Debian)
And why slam KDE4 and Gnome3? A lot of people out there actually do like and use them For those who don't (including me), they are not compulsory. TDE, Cinammon and Mate exist and Xfce gained huge popularity because of a demand for the "traditional desktop" and low resource usage.
I'm certainly not a "conservative" who wants to keep kde 3.5.10 as-was forever. TDE must develop to survive.. and I hope it does, remaining focused on low resource usage and the "traditional desktop"
And remember, this topic is about the menu. One of the good things about TDE is customizability.. install it and do what pleases *you* with it, you actually can.
David
On 2013-02-24 08:45 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
I prefer to use the KickOff menu instead of the classic menu in Trinity
I don't think it ever takes me more than 60 seconds from first opening a new desktop installation of WinXP or KDE4 until I've made the switch from their inane default menu styles to their classic menu styles. I'm glad TDE doesn't make it necessary.
On Sunday 24 February 2013 07:45:20 Alexandre Couture wrote:
Hi everyone! First of all, I would like to say a big thank you to the persons making Trinity possible!
In PCLinuxOS, between different window manager and desktop environment, the layout of how apps are classified is very similar, while Trinity has its own apps classification, which is the same as KDE3. Debian also has an apps classification that is common across almost all WM and DE.
I have seen somewhere that the next release of TDE will be freedesktop.org compliant. Does it means that TDE will adopt this new way of organizing apps? I would like to say that I prefer the new method of organizing the K menu than the one used in TDE. As an example, let's look at these 3 menu sub-levels: System, Utilities and Settings. These categories are almost overlapping in each other and it ends up that something that would be better placed in Settings ends up being in System or in Utilities. For this reason, I prefer to use the KickOff menu instead of the classic menu in Trinity, because I just have to type the name of the program I want to start in the search bar at the top, and it ends up being faster than trying to find where is the program I want to start.
Of course, the new way of menu classification is not 100% perfect, but I would say that, in my opinion, has made it a little more simple to use.
Would it be a good idea to make an option in the menu configuration program to let the users choose between the Trinity way of organizing the K menu (as in KDE3) and the new way of organizing the K menu (as in KDE4 and all the others DE and WM)?
So, what do you think about it?
Have a nice day! -Alexandre
I've been watching the responses to this thread, and they seem to be avoiding response to the original issue. I also am not a developer, but I wonder if such modifications to the look-and-feel of Trinity should be encapsulated, if possible, as an additional theme, or in an analogous manner?
Leslie
On Sunday 24 February 2013 07:45:20 Alexandre Couture wrote:
Hi everyone! First of all, I would like to say a big thank you to the persons making Trinity possible!
In PCLinuxOS, between different window manager and desktop environment, the layout of how apps are classified is very similar, while Trinity has its own apps classification, which is the same as KDE3. Debian also has an apps classification that is common across almost all WM and DE.
I have seen somewhere that the next release of TDE will be freedesktop.org compliant. Does it means that TDE will adopt this new way of organizing apps? I would like to say that I prefer the new method of organizing the K menu than the one used in TDE. As an example, let's look at these 3 menu sub-levels: System, Utilities and Settings. These categories are almost overlapping in each other and it ends up that something that would be better placed in Settings ends up being in System or in Utilities. For this reason, I prefer to use the KickOff menu instead of the classic menu in Trinity, because I just have to type the name of the program I want to start in the search bar at the top, and it ends up being faster than trying to find where is the program I want to start.
Of course, the new way of menu classification is not 100% perfect, but I would say that, in my opinion, has made it a little more simple to use.
Would it be a good idea to make an option in the menu configuration program to let the users choose between the Trinity way of organizing the K menu (as in KDE3) and the new way of organizing the K menu (as in KDE4 and all the others DE and WM)?
So, what do you think about it?
Have a nice day! -Alexandre
I've been watching the responses to this thread, and they seem to be avoiding response to the original issue. I also am not a developer, but I wonder if such modifications to the look-and-feel of Trinity should be encapsulated, if possible, as an additional theme, or in an analogous manner?
Leslie
My personal opinion is that the new menu structure, regardless of how many other desktops are using it, goes against the fundamental HCI goals of the Trinity project by displaying very little information at any given time, displaying that information in a nondeterministic manner, and requiring multiple mouse interaction events to launch a program. Therefore, I recommend against this suggestion, and politely suggest those wishing to use a semantic desktop look into using KDE and Gnome Shell.
Tim
said Timothy Pearson:
| My personal opinion is that the new menu structure, regardless of | how many other desktops are using it, goes against the fundamental | HCI goals of the Trinity project by displaying very little | information at any given time, displaying that information in a | nondeterministic manner, and requiring multiple mouse interaction | events to launch a program. Therefore, I recommend against this | suggestion, and politely suggest those wishing to use a semantic | desktop look into using KDE and Gnome Shell.
i'll see you and raise you fifty (having no real dog in this fight, because i plop down trinity atop (k)ubuntu). i used to keep a gnome install, so in case i blew up my kde-3.x, i could hop over and get online and replace whatever i'd been too clever about. but with the recent upgrade, to 12.04 lts, when i broke it and opened grome i could not figure out how to do anything at all.
that having been said, it shall be a happy day for me when some kind of fix of the current kmail certificate-forever-not-taking bug is put into a nice binary file, because it is driving me entirely insane. a short trip, admittedly, but one i'd just as soon not take . . .
back on point, and recognizing that the nature of free and open software is that anyone can do what he or she wants, i do not see much room for improvement in the kmenu system. there is a tendency for developers to do things because they can -- witness some of the changes in the new libreoffice -- rather than because it makes much sense or makes users happier or serves any other real or imagined useful purpose.
On Monday 25 February 2013 13:55:03 dep wrote:
said Timothy Pearson: that having been said, it shall be a happy day for me when some kind of fix of the current kmail certificate-forever-not-taking bug is put into a nice binary file, because it is driving me entirely insane. a short trip, admittedly, but one i'd just as soon not take . . .
This drove me mad for ages, until I finally broke down and started tinkering with the Settings. (I don't know if this is the best way to fix this, but I figure that when an ISP sends certificates with broken authority info, which apparently is ignored by all those Windoze mail clients, it must be more or less okay...) In the Scurity & Privacy Settings, S/MIME Validation tab, I unchecked "Do not check certificate policies" and "Never consult a CRL", and now kMail doesn't gripe about this any more.
Leslie
said Leslie Turriff:
| This drove me mad for ages, until I finally broke down and started | tinkering with the Settings. (I don't know if this is the best way to | fix this, but I figure that when an ISP sends certificates with broken | authority info, which apparently is ignored by all those Windoze mail | clients, it must be more or less okay...) | In the Scurity & Privacy Settings, S/MIME Validation tab, I unchecked | "Do not check certificate policies" and "Never consult a CRL", and now | kMail doesn't gripe about this any more.
not the safest thing to do, but preferable to insanity -- thanks!
said dep: | said Leslie Turriff: | | This drove me mad for ages, until I finally broke down and started | | tinkering with the Settings. (I don't know if this is the best way to | | fix this, but I figure that when an ISP sends certificates with broken | | authority info, which apparently is ignored by all those Windoze mail | | clients, it must be more or less okay...) | | In the Scurity & Privacy Settings, S/MIME Validation tab, I unchecked | | "Do not check certificate policies" and "Never consult a CRL", and now | | kMail doesn't gripe about this any more. | | not the safest thing to do, but preferable to insanity -- thanks!
well, except for one thing: it didn't solve the problem.
On Monday 25 February 2013 16:05:27 dep wrote:
said dep: | said Leslie Turriff: | | This drove me mad for ages, until I finally broke down and started | | tinkering with the Settings. (I don't know if this is the best way to | | fix this, but I figure that when an ISP sends certificates with broken | | authority info, which apparently is ignored by all those Windoze mail | | clients, it must be more or less okay...) | | In the Scurity & Privacy Settings, S/MIME Validation tab, I unchecked | | "Do not check certificate policies" and "Never consult a CRL", and now | | kMail doesn't gripe about this any more. | | not the safest thing to do, but preferable to insanity -- thanks!
well, except for one thing: it didn't solve the problem.
Hmmm... I don't think I changed anything else to fix it. Maybe your ISP's certificate problem is different than mine?
On 26/02/13 09:21, Leslie Turriff wrote:
On Monday 25 February 2013 16:05:27 dep wrote:
said dep: | said Leslie Turriff: | | This drove me mad for ages, until I finally broke down and started | | tinkering with the Settings. (I don't know if this is the best way to | | fix this, but I figure that when an ISP sends certificates with broken | | authority info, which apparently is ignored by all those Windoze mail | | clients, it must be more or less okay...) | | In the Scurity & Privacy Settings, S/MIME Validation tab, I unchecked | | "Do not check certificate policies" and "Never consult a CRL", and now | | kMail doesn't gripe about this any more. | | not the safest thing to do, but preferable to insanity -- thanks!
well, except for one thing: it didn't solve the problem.
Hmmm... I don't think I changed anything else to fix it. Maybe your ISP's certificate problem is different than mine?
I think you missed the point Dep is making.
The *actual* problem is that when KMail comes across a broken certificate, and you tell it "Remember this one is okay forever", it *does not* remember that it is okay forever.
Telling KMail "never check the certificates" does not solve the problem, since that stops KMail from complaining *at all*. It completely breaks when you have a situation like this:
- Site X certificate is broken, and I trust it forever; - Site Y certificate is broken, but I only trust it this one time; - I don't trust site Z at all unless the certificate is valid.
On Monday 25 February 2013 17:49:14 Steven D'Aprano wrote:
I think you missed the point Dep is making.
The *actual* problem is that when KMail comes across a broken certificate, and you tell it "Remember this one is okay forever", it *does not* remember that it is okay forever.
Telling KMail "never check the certificates" does not solve the problem, since that stops KMail from complaining *at all*. It completely breaks when you have a situation like this:
- Site X certificate is broken, and I trust it forever;
- Site Y certificate is broken, but I only trust it this one time;
- I don't trust site Z at all unless the certificate is valid.
No, as I stated in my first post, I realize that this is not the proper way to fix the issue, but since I've never seen a fix in all the years of using kMail3, I took it upon myself to at least reduce the aggravation, with an admittedly lousy solution.
said Leslie Turriff:
| Hmmm... I don't think I changed anything else to fix it. Maybe your | ISP's certificate problem is different than mine?
could be. this one throws the "The IP address of the host www. [hostname].org does not match the one the certificate was issued to." fair enough. then i am prompted to accept it this once or forever. i click on "forever." which matters not a whit, because the next time i check the mail, the same thing happens. doesn't even stick when i don't restart or anything.
it was a known bug in the kde-3.x crowd, which they resolved by bringing out kde4, which i despise. it was noted on the trinity bug list and someone made a patch, which time was kind enough to give me instructions on compiling but which simply refused to go here.
(it has been awhile since i compiled anything here; not since it was "configure -prefix=/opt/kde" "make" "make install" -- i even once wrote that kde was getting so big that i could drive from newtown, ct., to key west, fla., in the time it took: http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/3420/1 )
the odd thing is that this issue did not exist in the previous trinity distribution (or kubuntu 10.04; it's not clear to me exactly where the failure to believe that "forever" means forever resides). it got introduced somehow. i would like to figure out what file contains the malignancy and see if i can replace it with an earlier version -- or something.
On Monday 25 February 2013 17:50:33 dep wrote:
it was a known bug in the kde-3.x crowd, which they resolved by bringing out kde4, which i despise.
kMail4 is one of the principal reasons I abandoned KDE4; I often go for several days between email downloads, and kMail3 can take several minutes to resync; but kMail4 took /hours./
-
Alexandre Couture -
Andy -
C W -
David Hare -
dep -
Felix Miata -
Felmon Davis -
François Andriot -
JB -
Leslie Turriff -
Lisi Reisz -
Mag. Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
Steven D'Aprano -
Timothy Pearson