24 Feb
2013
24 Feb
'13
1:45 p.m.
Hi everyone!
First of all, I would like to say a big thank you to the persons making Trinity possible!
In PCLinuxOS, between different window manager and desktop environment, the layout of how
apps are classified is very similar, while Trinity has its own apps classification, which
is the same as KDE3. Debian also has an apps classification that is common across almost
all WM and DE.
I have seen somewhere that the next release of TDE will be freedesktop.org compliant. Does
it means that TDE will adopt this new way of organizing apps?
I would like to say that I prefer the new method of organizing the K menu than the one
used in TDE. As an example, let's look at these 3 menu sub-levels: System, Utilities
and Settings. These categories are almost overlapping in each other and it ends up that
something that would be better placed in Settings ends up being in System or in Utilities.
For this reason, I prefer to use the KickOff menu instead of the classic menu in Trinity,
because I just have to type the name of the program I want to start in the search bar at
the top, and it ends up being faster than trying to find where is the program I want to
start.
Of course, the new way of menu classification is not 100% perfect, but I would say that,
in my opinion, has made it a little more simple to use.
Would it be a good idea to make an option in the menu configuration program to let the
users choose between the Trinity way of organizing the K menu (as in KDE3) and the new way
of organizing the K menu (as in KDE4 and all the others DE and WM)?
So, what do you think about it?
Have a nice day!
-Alexandre
24 Feb
24 Feb
1:58 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organization in Trinity
On Sunday 24 February 2013 13:45:20 Alexandre Couture wrote:
So, what do you think about it?
Sorry, Alexandre, but Yuk! I intensely dislike that menu structure. In fact
it is one the (many) reasons that I stick with Trinity. I find the new style
menus ghastly.
I have commented before on your apparent prefernec for KDE 4. There must be
something that you like in Trinity. If not, why do you use it?
Lisi
3:06 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organization in Trinity
On Sunday 24 February 2013 13:45:20 Alexandre Couture
wrote:
Woo! There is nothing to intensely dislike in it. It is certainly not a very big
issue!
I can clearly tell that you haven't read all I wrote, just by the special way you
reply to it. Please read it again...
So, what do you think about it?
Sorry, Alexandre, but Yuk! I intensely dislike that menu structure. In fact
it is one the (many) reasons that I stick with Trinity. I find the new style
menus ghastly.
I have commented before on your apparent prefernec for
KDE 4. There must be
something that you like in Trinity. If not, why do you use it?
Lisi
Thank you for your input! Yet again, if you have read correctly all I wrote before, you
would know how much I appreciate the fact that TDE is a 100% complete and lightweight
desktop environment that is well suited for older computer, as well as newer computers.
I am putting effort in doing a complete remaster of PCLinuxOS and I make it available to
everyone, not just for me... It requires much more work to make a remaster that works for
everyone, not just for my own computer. I could have kept it just for me, but I decided to
give something to the TDE community to thank them for making TDE possible.
-Alexandre
4:39 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On Sunday 24 February 2013 15:06:05 Alexandre Couture wrote:
If there is nothing for me to dislike, then there is nothing for you to like.
I had read what you wrote, although I have also read it again since you asked
me to. You make me feel very defensive. You appear to be dead set on
destroying Trinity's distinctiveness and making it exactly like KDE4. There
are other lightweight DEs. Why pick on Trinity?
Sorry,
Alexandre, but Yuk! I intensely dislike that menu structure. In
fact it is one the (many) reasons that I stick with Trinity. I find the
new style menus ghastly.
Woo! There is nothing to intensely dislike in it. It is certainly not a
very big issue! I can clearly tell that you haven't read all I wrote, just
by the special way you reply to it. Please read it again... I am putting effort in doing a complete remaster of
PCLinuxOS and I make it
available to everyone, not just for me... It requires much more work to
make a remaster that works for everyone, not just for my own computer. I
could have kept it just for me, but I decided to give something to the TDE
community to thank them for making TDE possible.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. That you are not just a free
loader? That this may benefit some people I would not attempt to deny. But
it doesn't affect me. If I don't like it, I don't have to use it. If you
succeed in messing TDE up, it will affect me.
I recognise that sadly Trinity is probably buying me time, and that in the end
I shall probably have to choose from the other available offerings. But I am
not happy that you should appear to have the sole aim of making Trinity as
similar to KDE4 as possible. Surely one out of LXDE, XFCE, the various
window makers has a menu you like?
And as you say, your remastering is under your control. Make the menus as
nasty as you like. But I dislike KDE4, and the menu is one of the things
that I very much dislike - and you did ask.
Lisi
5:24 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:39:04 +0000
Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday 24 February 2013 15:06:05 Alexandre Couture
wrote:
If there is nothing for me to dislike, then there is nothing for you to like.
I had read what you wrote, although I have also read it again since you asked
me to. You make me feel very defensive. You appear to be dead set on
destroying Trinity's distinctiveness and making it exactly like KDE4. There
are other lightweight DEs. Why pick on Trinity?
Well said, Lisi. I'm seeing the exact same thing...that Alexandre keeps
saying/doing something to make Trinity more KDE4-like than what it's meant to be.
If it's no good to keep it as close to its original purpose and design, why have
it at all?
(I didn't trim because everything Lisi covered needed to be seen again, IMHO)
--
Man is a religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only
animal that has the True Religion -- several of them. -Mark Twain
Sorry,
Alexandre, but Yuk! I intensely dislike that menu structure. In
fact it is one the (many) reasons that I stick with Trinity. I find the
new style menus ghastly.
Woo! There is nothing to intensely dislike in it. It is certainly not a
very big issue! I can clearly tell that you haven't read all I wrote, just
by the special way you reply to it. Please read it again... I am putting effort in doing a complete remaster
of PCLinuxOS and I make it
available to everyone, not just for me... It requires much more work to
make a remaster that works for everyone, not just for my own computer. I
could have kept it just for me, but I decided to give something to the TDE
community to thank them for making TDE possible.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. That you are not just a free
loader? That this may benefit some people I would not attempt to deny. But
it doesn't affect me. If I don't like it, I don't have to use it. If you
succeed in messing TDE up, it will affect me.
I recognise that sadly Trinity is probably buying me time, and that in the end
I shall probably have to choose from the other available offerings. But I am
not happy that you should appear to have the sole aim of making Trinity as
similar to KDE4 as possible. Surely one out of LXDE, XFCE, the various
window makers has a menu you like?
And as you say, your remastering is under your control. Make the menus as
nasty as you like. But I dislike KDE4, and the menu is one of the things
that I very much dislike - and you did ask.
Lisi
7 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Sunday 24 February 2013 15:06:05 Alexandre Couture
wrote:
If there is nothing for me to dislike, then there is nothing for you to like.
[...]
what puzzles me about this particular leg of the debate is that the
only thing that Alexendre mentioned that he thought was missing from
'Classic' was a utility for searching with tab completion. this might
be a good idea and probably not too difficult to add to 'Classic'.
I tend to agree that it is hard to know what's going to be in
'settings', 'system' and so on but one can tidy that up oneself. I
don't recall kde4 and whether it handles this any better.
on these scores, tidying up the arrangement and introducing a search
bar, it hardly seems worth the heat of controversy evidenced here but
I must be missing something.
(leaving the rest of your post in for context.)
F.
Sorry,
Alexandre, but Yuk! I intensely dislike that menu structure. In
fact it is one the (many) reasons that I stick with Trinity. I find the
new style menus ghastly.
Woo! There is nothing to intensely dislike in it. It is certainly not a
very big issue! I can clearly tell that you haven't read all I wrote, just
by the special way you reply to it. Please read it again...
I had read what you wrote, although I have also read it again since you asked
me to. You make me feel very defensive. You appear to be dead set on
destroying Trinity's distinctiveness and making it exactly like KDE4. There
are other lightweight DEs. Why pick on Trinity?
--
Felmon Davis
Well, if I called the wrong number, why did you answer the phone? --
Thurber
I am putting effort in doing a complete remaster
of PCLinuxOS and I make it
available to everyone, not just for me... It requires much more work to
make a remaster that works for everyone, not just for my own computer. I
could have kept it just for me, but I decided to give something to the TDE
community to thank them for making TDE possible.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. That you are not just a free
loader? That this may benefit some people I would not attempt to deny. But
it doesn't affect me. If I don't like it, I don't have to use it. If you
succeed in messing TDE up, it will affect me.
I recognise that sadly Trinity is probably buying me time, and that in the end
I shall probably have to choose from the other available offerings. But I am
not happy that you should appear to have the sole aim of making Trinity as
similar to KDE4 as possible. Surely one out of LXDE, XFCE, the various
window makers has a menu you like?
And as you say, your remastering is under your control. Make the menus as
nasty as you like. But I dislike KDE4, and the menu is one of the things
that I very much dislike - and you did ask.
Lisi
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7:42 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
Thank you Alexandre for making a version of PCLinuxOS with TDE. I agree
that it's best to add the option to switch between the KDE4 style menu &
TDE classic style menu. This will not damage TDE. It is just adding
another option (an option that I & others will enjoy using, if you add
it).
Cheers,
Elcaset
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Felmon Davis <davisf(a)union.edu> wrote:
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Sunday 24 February 2013 15:06:05 Alexandre Couture wrote:
what puzzles me about this particular leg of the debate is that the only
thing that Alexendre mentioned that he thought was missing from 'Classic'
was a utility for searching with tab completion. this might be a good idea
and probably not too difficult to add to 'Classic'.
I tend to agree that it is hard to know what's going to be in 'settings',
'system' and so on but one can tidy that up oneself. I don't recall kde4
and whether it handles this any better.
on these scores, tidying up the arrangement and introducing a search bar,
it hardly seems worth the heat of controversy evidenced here but I must be
missing something.
(leaving the rest of your post in for context.)
F.
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
Sorry, Alexandre, but Yuk! I intensely dislike
that menu structure. In
If there is nothing for me to dislike, then there is nothing for you to
like.
[...]
fact it is one the (many) reasons that I stick
with Trinity. I find the
new style menus ghastly.
Woo! There is nothing to intensely dislike in it. It is certainly not a
very big issue! I can clearly tell that you haven't read all I wrote,
just
by the special way you reply to it. Please read it again...
I had read what you wrote, although I have also
read it again since you
asked
me to. You make me feel very defensive. You appear to be dead set on
destroying Trinity's distinctiveness and making it exactly like KDE4.
There
are other lightweight DEs. Why pick on Trinity?
I am putting effort in doing a complete remaster of PCLinuxOS and I make
--
Felmon Davis
Well, if I called the wrong number, why did you answer the phone? --
Thurber
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it
available to everyone, not just for me... It requires much more work to
make a remaster that works for everyone, not just for my own computer. I
could have kept it just for me, but I decided to give something to the
TDE
community to thank them for making TDE possible.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. That you are not just a free
loader? That this may benefit some people I would not attempt to deny.
But
it doesn't affect me. If I don't like it, I don't have to use it. If you
succeed in messing TDE up, it will affect me.
I recognise that sadly Trinity is probably buying me time, and that in
the end
I shall probably have to choose from the other available offerings. But
I am
not happy that you should appear to have the sole aim of making Trinity as
similar to KDE4 as possible. Surely one out of LXDE, XFCE, the various
window makers has a menu you like?
And as you say, your remastering is under your control. Make the menus as
nasty as you like. But I dislike KDE4, and the menu is one of the things
that I very much dislike - and you did ask.
Lisi
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8:06 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On Sunday 24 February 2013 02:42:40 pm C W wrote:
Thank you Alexandre for making a version of PCLinuxOS
with TDE. I agree
that it's best to add the option to switch between the KDE4 style menu &
TDE classic style menu. This will not damage TDE. It is just adding
another option (an option that I & others will enjoy using, if you add
it).
Cheers,
Elcaset
+1
Choice is good, and I appreciate Alexandre's efforts.
Speaking of choice, :-)
it would be nice if you (Alexandre) left Konqueror available as a file
manager, and not just Dolphin. It was certainly not hard to add it back, but
why ever remove it in the first place?
Alexandre, thanks again for this version of PCLinuxOS with TDE.
Best regards,
Andy
9:12 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On Sunday 24 February 2013 02:42:40 pm C W wrote:
> Thank you Alexandre for making a version of PCLinuxOS with TDE. I agree
> that it's best to add the option to switch between the KDE4 style menu &
> TDE classic style menu. This will not damage TDE. It is just adding
> another option (an option that I & others will enjoy using, if you add
> it).
>
I am part of these ''others'' who will enjoy it too :)
Cheers,
Elcaset
+1
Choice is good, and I appreciate Alexandre's efforts.
Speaking of choice, :-)
it would be nice if you (Alexandre) left Konqueror available as a file
manager, and not just Dolphin. It was certainly not hard to add it back, but
why ever remove it in the first place?
Ok, there is no problem with this: The only thing that you need to change is to
replace Dolphin by Konqueror in the shortcuts! And Konqueror is still there!
The reason I used Dolphin is simply because I like its side-bar with previews and
information about the files. One thing it lacks if you compare it with the KDE4 version is
the tabs, but I still like it!
Alexandre, thanks again for this version of PCLinuxOS
with TDE.
Best regards,
Andy
Thank you!
I think that for the next release of my livecd, I will probably make 2 versions of it: A
version similar to what it is now and a version with all the apps stripped out and with
plain vanilla TDE style, that I hope would fit on a CD.
One thing that should be remembered is that I am not a dev. So, I will try to see if I can
change some configs to get a K menu with a different structure, but it is probably more in
the way TDE organize the menu that it should be checked.
-Alexandre
10:09 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
"I think that for the next release of my livecd, I will probably make 2
versions of it: A version similar to what it is now and a version with all
the apps stripped out and with plain vanilla TDE style, that I hope would
fit on a CD."
That sounds like a great approach that should keep just about everybody
happy.
Thanks,
Elcaset
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Alexandre Couture <ac586133(a)hotmail.com>wrote;wrote:
TDE is all about choice,
and the fact that it has tons of options is
probably why it is still loved!
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
On Sunday 24 February 2013 02:42:40 pm C W
wrote:
> Thank you Alexandre for making a version of PCLinuxOS with TDE. I agree
> that it's best to add the option to switch between the KDE4 style menu
&
> TDE classic style menu. This will not damage
TDE. It is just adding
> another option (an option that I & others will enjoy using, if you add
> it).
>
I am part of these ''others'' who will enjoy it too :)
Cheers,
Elcaset
+1
Choice is good, and I appreciate Alexandre's efforts.
Speaking of choice, :-)
it would be nice if you (Alexandre) left Konqueror available as a file
manager, and not just Dolphin. It was certainly not hard to add it back,
but
why ever remove it in the first place?
Ok, there is no problem with this: The only thing that you need to change
is to replace Dolphin by Konqueror in the shortcuts! And Konqueror is still
there!
The reason I used Dolphin is simply because I like its side-bar with
previews and information about the files. One thing it lacks if you compare
it with the KDE4 version is the tabs, but I still like it!
Alexandre, thanks again for this version of
PCLinuxOS with TDE.
Best regards,
Andy
Thank you!
I think that for the next release of my livecd, I will probably make 2
versions of it: A version similar to what it is now and a version with all
the apps stripped out and with plain vanilla TDE style, that I hope would
fit on a CD.
One thing that should be remembered is that I am not a dev. So, I will try
to see if I can change some configs to get a K menu with a different
structure, but it is probably more in the way TDE organize the menu that it
should be checked.
-Alexandre
25 Feb
25 Feb
12:19 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
Alexandre, thank you for your efforts at releasing Trinity for PCLinuxOS. But, please read
on.
On 25/02/13 07:06, Andy wrote:
On Sunday 24 February 2013 02:42:40 pm C W wrote:
Choice is bad. Or rather, having *too much choice* is bad. And it must be *informed*
choice. This is not informed choice.
Too much choice is called *complication*, and it is bad for business, it is bad for mental
health, bad for users, and bad for developers.
http://www.businessinsider.com/too-many-choices-are-bad-for-business-2012-1…
http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3290
Alexandre has added an option to Trinity to support another option. Has he written the
documentation to explain that option? Has he written the tests to ensure that all Trinity
software works correctly whichever option the user chooses?
I expect not. So by adding this choice, Trinity now is probably a little worse, not
better. A little worse documented, a little worse tested.
Or rather, I should say he has added an option to *his* version on Trinity. Now I have
uncertainty and doubt, not choice. If I install Trinity, which Trinity will I get? Will it
be Trinity that feels like KDE 3 with Konqueror, or Trinity that feels like KDE 4 with
Dolphin? What other bits have been removed? How will I know before I spend my valuable
time and effort downloading and installing it?
Where is my choice if I do not know what I will get?
Alexandre, if you want to fork Trinity to make a mutant hybrid that's half KDE 3 and
half KDE 4, then give people real choice by giving it a new name and not claim it is
Trinity. Or you are welcome to try to convince the Trinity developer team to accept his
modifications, so that they apply to Trinity no matter where I get it from. But having
Trinity be different depending on who you get it from is a *bad thing*, and it speaks
badly for the Trinity project.
If I have a bad experience with Trinity, is it because Trinity is broken, or because
I've installed a bad modification? If I recommend Trinity to colleagues and friends,
and they install "the wrong version", will they try again with "the right
version", or will they just dismiss Trinity as broken and me as having no
credibility?
--
Steven
Thank you Alexandre for making a version of
PCLinuxOS with TDE. I agree
that it's best to add the option to switch between the KDE4 style menu &
TDE classic style menu. This will not damage TDE. It is just adding
another option (an option that I & others will enjoy using, if you add
it).
Cheers,
Elcaset
+1
Choice is good, and I appreciate Alexandre's efforts.
1:32 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
Choice is bad. Or rather, having *too much choice* is
bad. And it must be *informed* choice. This is not informed choice.
Too much choice is called *complication*, and it is bad for business, it is bad for
mental health, bad for users, and bad for developers.
http://www.businessinsider.com/too-many-choices-are-bad-for-business-2012-1…
http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3290
Alexandre has added an option to Trinity to support another option. Has he written the
documentation to explain that option? Has he written the tests to ensure that all Trinity
software works correctly whichever option the user chooses?
I expect not. So by adding this choice, Trinity now is probably a little worse, not
better. A little worse documented, a little worse tested.
Or rather, I should say he has added an option to *his* version on Trinity. Now I have
uncertainty and doubt, not choice. If I install Trinity, which Trinity will I get? Will it
be Trinity that feels like KDE 3 with Konqueror, or Trinity that feels like KDE 4 with
Dolphin? What other bits have been removed? How will I know before I spend my valuable
time and effort downloading and installing it?
Where is my choice if I do not know what I will get?
Alexandre, if you want to fork Trinity to make a mutant hybrid that's half KDE 3 and
half KDE 4, then give people real choice by giving it a new name and not claim it is
Trinity. Or you are welcome to try to convince the Trinity developer team to accept his
modifications, so that they apply to Trinity no matter where I get it from. But having
Trinity be different depending on who you get it from is a *bad thing*, and it speaks
badly for the Trinity project.
If I have a bad experience with Trinity, is it because Trinity is broken, or because
I've installed a bad modification? If I recommend Trinity to colleagues and friends,
and they install "the wrong version", will they try again with "the right
version", or will they just dismiss Trinity as broken and me as having no
credibility?
--
Steven
Well that's getting a real joke! Once again!
I am not a software developer. I don't know how to make a computer program. And you
tell me that I have added an option to TDE? Certainly not.
It is funny that those who always write against what I say are never here on this mailing
list to help users who are experiencing problems. They are not TDE devs too. They are only
here to complain about what I say, in a non-constructive way. They are not making things
available for TDE.
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the compositor. Has it
broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down like what your are doing right now? Of
course, not at all. It was just a nice addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard
to implement it, so whe should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
-Alexandre
4:13 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 20:32:42 -0500
Alexandre Couture <ac586133(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
I think you're kind of missing the point of Trinity. It was to make it remain
KDE3-like, which meant it did *NOT* have all the useless crud *ADDED* to it which
turned it into the abortion known as KDE4. Adding more crud to Trinity doesn't
make it or keep it Trinity. Making the old code work on the newer versions of
linux OS's is the trick to having Trinity be a great DE...*NOT* adding and adding
and adding more and more 'stuff'. Trinity should run nice and fast - like KDE3
used
to, but when more and more stuff is added to it, there's no way it can possibly
run as fast as a leaner DE. I'm sure the dev's are having a hard enough time
just
with the old code making it work, much less adding more junk to it and still make
it lean and mean like the old KDE3 was.
It's great you want to help and add things, but the way you're going about it
isn't in the spirit of keeping it Trinity, IMHO.
Oh, and using that lame excuse that those who aren't 'contributing'
aren't worth
spit is, well...lame. There's many thousands upon thousands of people who wish
they could, but just don't have the skills or the means to learn the skills to
help. Even just writing help files, one can't be a simpleton because it has to be
written correctly, not thrown together by someone like me who doesn't know how to
write correctly enough to make the files not look like linux is made by and for
simpletons. It's a pet peave of mine when people use that lame excuse to try and
shame others into not speaking their minds about something and it's wrong when
people use it. Opinions of things going on around them and things that affect them
are what drives us as humans, not belittling or telling others their opinions suck
because they're not doing as much to a project as you are.
--
Man is a religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only
animal that has the True Religion -- several of them. -Mark Twain
Choice is bad.
Or rather, having *too much choice* is bad. And it must be
*informed* choice. This is not informed choice.
Too much choice is called *complication*, and it is bad for business, it is bad
for mental health, bad for users, and bad for developers.
http://www.businessinsider.com/too-many-choices-are-bad-for-business-2012-1…
http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3290
Alexandre has added an option to Trinity to support another option. Has he
written the documentation to explain that option? Has he written the tests to
ensure that all Trinity software works correctly whichever option the user
chooses?
I expect not. So by adding this choice, Trinity now is probably a little worse,
not better. A little worse documented, a little worse tested.
Or rather, I should say he has added an option to *his* version on Trinity. Now
I have uncertainty and doubt, not choice. If I install Trinity, which Trinity
will I get? Will it be Trinity that feels like KDE 3 with Konqueror, or Trinity
that feels like KDE 4 with Dolphin? What other bits have been removed? How will
I know before I spend my valuable time and effort downloading and installing it?
Where is my choice if I do not know what I will get?
Alexandre, if you want to fork Trinity to make a mutant hybrid that's half KDE 3
and half KDE 4, then give people real choice by giving it a new name and not
claim it is Trinity. Or you are welcome to try to convince the Trinity developer
team to accept his modifications, so that they apply to Trinity no matter where
I get it from. But having Trinity be different depending on who you get it from
is a *bad thing*, and it speaks badly for the Trinity project.
If I have a bad experience with Trinity, is it because Trinity is broken, or
because I've installed a bad modification? If I recommend Trinity to colleagues
and friends, and they install "the wrong version", will they try again with
"the
right version", or will they just dismiss Trinity as broken and me as having no
credibility?
--
Steven
Well that's getting a real joke! Once again!
I am not a software developer. I don't know how to make a computer program. And
you tell me that I have added an option to TDE? Certainly not.
It is funny that those who always write against what I say are never here on this
mailing list to help users who are experiencing problems. They are not TDE devs
too. They are only here to complain about what I say, in a non-constructive way.
They are not making things available for TDE.
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the compositor.
Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down like what your are doing
right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice addition to TDE and some
persons have worked hard to implement it, so whe should all thank those who want
to improve TDE in any way.
-Alexandre
4:26 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in
KDE 3.5.10 is the
compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down like
what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice
addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so whe
should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
"Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling or bloat? It's
incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I didn't even like to
sample them.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
1:14 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
I had no idea the TDE community was this hostile. Like some other folks in
here, I love both TDE & KDE4. They have different strengths. You don't
have to only use one & say the other sucks. That's childish.
Cheers,
Elcaset
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Felix Miata <mrmazda(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture
composed:
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the
users all upside down like
what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice
addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so whe
should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
"Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling or bloat?
It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I didn't even
like to sample them.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
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1:23 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
I had no idea the TDE community was this hostile.
Like some other folks in
here, I love both TDE & KDE4. They have different strengths. You don't
have to only use one & say the other sucks. That's childish.
Cheers,
Elcaset
from my point of view it is to be expected that people have strong
opinions about such matters, including that this or that "sucks",
nothing childish about it depending on their reasons.
however I think we should make sure that in the expression of opinions
we don't attack individuals whose opinions differ. I'm not sure that's
been done yet but maybe approaching the margins.
I find the discussion interesting and informative. as far as I can
see, the intentions certainly are good and if there are good questions
and good answers, who's the loser?
F.
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Felix Miata <mrmazda(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
--
Felmon Davis
Have preferences, not expectations.
On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture
composed:
An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the
compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the
users all upside down like
what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice
addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so whe
should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
"Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling or bloat?
It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I didn't even
like to sample them.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@**
lists.pearsoncomputing.net<trinity-users-unsubscribe(a)lists.pearsoncomputing.net>
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1:35 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
One thing I would like to point out is that the TDE project wouldn't exist
without the KDE project. Can't we give the KDE project at least a little
credit as having created KDE 3 so that TDE could be forked?
Thanks,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:23 AM, Felmon Davis <davisf(a)union.edu> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
I had no idea the TDE community was this hostile. Like some other folks
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
in
here, I love both TDE & KDE4. They have different strengths. You don't
have to only use one & say the other sucks. That's childish.
Cheers,
Elcaset
from my point of view it is to be expected that people have strong
opinions about such matters, including that this or that "sucks", nothing
childish about it depending on their reasons.
however I think we should make sure that in the expression of opinions we
don't attack individuals whose opinions differ. I'm not sure that's been
done yet but maybe approaching the margins.
I find the discussion interesting and informative. as far as I can see,
the intentions certainly are good and if there are good questions and good
answers, who's the loser?
F.
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Felix Miata
<mrmazda(a)earthlink.net>
wrote:
On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
--
Felmon Davis
Have preferences, not expectations.
------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
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An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the
For additional commands, e-mail:
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compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the
users all upside down
like
what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a nice
addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so
whe
should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
"Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling or bloat?
It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I didn't even
like to sample them.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
------------------------------****----------------------------**
--**---------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@**
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1:41 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
Also, statements in this thread like "the abortion known as KDE4" doesn't
sound to me like it was made with good intentions.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:35 AM, C W <elcaseti(a)gmail.com> wrote:
One thing I would like to point out is that the TDE
project wouldn't exist
without the KDE project. Can't we give the KDE project at least a little
credit as having created KDE 3 so that TDE could be forked?
Thanks,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:23 AM, Felmon Davis <davisf(a)union.edu> wrote:
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
I had no idea the TDE community was this hostile. Like some other folks
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
in
here, I love both TDE & KDE4. They have different strengths. You don't
have to only use one & say the other sucks. That's childish.
Cheers,
Elcaset
from my point of view it is to be expected that people have strong
opinions about such matters, including that this or that "sucks", nothing
childish about it depending on their reasons.
however I think we should make sure that in the expression of opinions we
don't attack individuals whose opinions differ. I'm not sure that's been
done yet but maybe approaching the margins.
I find the discussion interesting and informative. as far as I can see,
the intentions certainly are good and if there are good questions and good
answers, who's the loser?
F.
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Felix Miata
<mrmazda(a)earthlink.net>
wrote:
On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
--
Felmon Davis
Have preferences, not expectations.
------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
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An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the
> compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down
> like
> what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a
> nice
> addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it, so
> whe
> should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
>
>
"Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling or bloat?
It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I didn't even
like to sample them.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
------------------------------****----------------------------**
--**---------
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>
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<trinity-users-help@lists.**pearsoncomputing.net<trinity-users-help@lists.pearsoncomputing.net>
>
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>
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>
1:53 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
Also, statements in this thread like "the
abortion known as KDE4" doesn't
sound to me like it was made with good intentions.
I can't imagine why not. the poster is giving a strong warning, no ill
intent there. some will judge the warning exaggerated, some judge it
apt.
just seems like there are just different standards of rhetoric. people
express themselves differently.
anyway, I am interested in the discussion of the relative merits of
the two or so approaches, especially if it goes into specifics.
F.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:35 AM, C W <elcaseti(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> One thing I would like to point out is that the TDE project wouldn't exist
> without the KDE project. Can't we give the KDE project at least a little
> credit as having created KDE 3 so that TDE could be forked?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Elcaset
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:23 AM, Felmon Davis <davisf(a)union.edu> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
>>
>> I had no idea the TDE community was this hostile. Like some other folks
>>> in
>>> here, I love both TDE & KDE4. They have different strengths. You
don't
>>> have to only use one & say the other sucks. That's childish.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Elcaset
>>>
>>
>> from my point of view it is to be expected that people have strong
>> opinions about such matters, including that this or that "sucks",
nothing
>> childish about it depending on their reasons.
>>
>> however I think we should make sure that in the expression of opinions we
>> don't attack individuals whose opinions differ. I'm not sure that's
been
>> done yet but maybe approaching the margins.
>>
>> I find the discussion interesting and informative. as far as I can see,
>> the intentions certainly are good and if there are good questions and good
>> answers, who's the loser?
>>
>> F.
>>
>> >
>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Felix Miata <mrmazda(a)earthlink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is the
>>>>
>>>>> compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside
down
>>>>> like
>>>>> what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a
>>>>> nice
>>>>> addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it,
so
>>>>> whe
>>>>> should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> "Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not bling
or bloat?
>>>> It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I
didn't even
>>>> like to sample them.
>>>> --
>>>> "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
>>>> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
>>>>
>>>> Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
>>>>
>>>> Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
>>>>
--
Felmon Davis
Don't shoot until you're sure you both aren't on the same side.
2:12 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
It makes the TDE community look bad (and certainly not inviting to growing
our ranks) when it is so popular to be hostile towards anything other than
TDE. You expect there to be a few jerks in any community, but when the
jerk percentage gets too high, you're keeping others away. The community
won't grow.
I'm not talking about being opinionated. Probably everyone here is pretty
opinionated about software freedom, & other unrelated things. I'm talking
about coming off as a jerk.
I realize, we'll probably just end up agreeing to disagree about all of
this, but this stuff seems pretty obvious to me.
cheers,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:53 AM, Felmon Davis <davisf(a)union.edu> wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
Also, statements in this thread like "the abortion known as KDE4" doesn't
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
sound to me like it was made with good
intentions.
I can't imagine why not. the poster is giving a strong warning, no ill
intent there. some will judge the warning exaggerated, some judge it apt.
just seems like there are just different standards of rhetoric. people
express themselves differently.
anyway, I am interested in the discussion of the relative merits of the
two or so approaches, especially if it goes into specifics.
F.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:35 AM, C W
<elcaseti(a)gmail.com> wrote:
One thing I would like to point out is that the TDE project wouldn't
> exist
> without the KDE project. Can't we give the KDE project at least a little
> credit as having created KDE 3 so that TDE could be forked?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Elcaset
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:23 AM, Felmon Davis <davisf(a)union.edu> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, C W wrote:
>>
>> I had no idea the TDE community was this hostile. Like some other
>> folks
>>
>>> in
>>> here, I love both TDE & KDE4. They have different strengths. You
>>> don't
>>> have to only use one & say the other sucks. That's childish.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Elcaset
>>>
>>>
>> from my point of view it is to be expected that people have strong
>> opinions about such matters, including that this or that "sucks",
>> nothing
>> childish about it depending on their reasons.
>>
>> however I think we should make sure that in the expression of opinions
>> we
>> don't attack individuals whose opinions differ. I'm not sure that's
been
>> done yet but maybe approaching the margins.
>>
>> I find the discussion interesting and informative. as far as I can see,
>> the intentions certainly are good and if there are good questions and
>> good
>> answers, who's the loser?
>>
>> F.
>>
>> >
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Felix Miata <mrmazda(a)earthlink.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2013-02-24 20:32 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An example of a feature added to TDE that was not in KDE 3.5.10 is
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> compositor. Has it broken all TDE and maked the users all upside down
>>>>> like
>>>>> what your are doing right now? Of course, not at all. It was just a
>>>>> nice
>>>>> addition to TDE and some persons have worked hard to implement it,
so
>>>>> whe
>>>>> should all thank those who want to improve TDE in any way.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Nice addition" is your opinion. How is compositing not
bling or
>>>> bloat?
>>>> It's incorporation in early KDE4 releases was a big reason I
didn't
>>>> even
>>>> like to sample them.
>>>> --
>>>> "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
>>>> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
>>>>
>>>> Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
>>>>
>>>> Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
>>>>
>>>>
--
Felmon Davis
Don't shoot until you're sure you both aren't on the same side.
------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
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2:27 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
It makes the TDE community look bad (and certainly not
inviting to growing
our ranks) when it is so popular to be hostile towards anything other than
TDE. You expect there to be a few jerks in any community, but when the
jerk percentage gets too high, you're keeping others away. The community
won't grow.
I'm not talking about being opinionated. Probably everyone here is pretty
opinionated about software freedom, & other unrelated things. I'm talking
about coming off as a jerk.
I realize, we'll probably just end up agreeing to disagree about all of
this, but this stuff seems pretty obvious to me.
cheers,
Elcaset
+1. Please keep the KDE/Gnome/etc. flaming off this list.
Think of it this way: would you so loudly criticize another system such as
Mac OS X, or would you simply state that such a system was designed with a
different user in mind, not for you, limited, etc.? KDE and other desktop
offerings should be treated with at least some degree of respect--they are
not competitors, but rather have a different idea of how people should be
using their computers. An idea that seems to be rather popular at the
moment I might add, no matter how much I personally disagree with it. ;-)
Also, please remember that there is technology in KDE that might be useful
to us in the future; not everything in the KDE project is incompatible
with the TDE project's goals.
Tim
2:29 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On Monday 25 February 2013 14:12:08 C W wrote:
It makes the TDE community look bad (and certainly not
inviting to growing
our ranks) when it is so popular to be hostile towards anything other than
TDE.
Who is hostile to anything other than TDE?? As one of the "hostile" people, I
am not hostile to anything other than TDE. I _am_ hostile to destroying the
essence of TDE. I have also been convinced during this discussion that TDE
can't be allowed to fragment to the extent that there are umpteen different
DEs, all called TDE. Alexandre's version may well be exactly what some
people want. I would not deny that. But it may still not actually be TDE.
TDE is what it is because some highly competent people wanted to continue
using KDE3 and did not want to use KDE4. TDE with parts of KDE4 is not TDE
as originally conceived.
Lisi
2:06 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On Monday 25 February 2013 13:35:53 C W wrote:
One thing I would like to point out is that the TDE
project wouldn't exist
without the KDE project. Can't we give the KDE project at least a little
credit as having created KDE 3 so that TDE could be forked?
It is one thing to give it some credit, and as you say, credit is due. But it
is another to try to destroy the very essence of Trinity.
Perhaps the best solution, for those who want a more KDE4-like Trinity, would
be for it to be a separate fork as has been suggested. I am not just
anti-KDE4, although I do dislike almost everything about it, in particular
what I see as its environment. I wouldn't want Trinity turned into GNOME
either. But at the moment no-one is trying to turn it into GNOME.
There is not much point in asking what people think, only to take umbrage if
you don't like the reply.
Lisi
2:48 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On 26/02/13 00:35, C W wrote:
One thing I would like to point out is that the TDE
project wouldn't exist
without the KDE project. Can't we give the KDE project at least a little
credit as having created KDE 3 so that TDE could be forked?
That is completely irrelevant to anything. This is not a debate about giving
credit to the KDE project. This is a discussion about three things:
1) Trinity was deliberately started to keep the old KDE 3 look and feel, when
the KDE developers decided to change direction; the question becomes,
should Trinity stay like KDE 3, or should it become like KDE 4?
2) How many user interface options are too many? Consistency in software is a
good thing, just ask Apple. Too many options make an unusable, untestable
mess. Just because a choice exists doesn't mean we have to offer it.
3) Is it a good thing for Trinity to have a different look and feel depending
on where you get it from? Alexandre has released Trinity for PCLinuxOS,
which is great. But he's also unilaterally changed the look and feel by
default so that PCLinuxOS Trinity is different from Trinity elsewhere.
Should we encourage that, or should we insist (as much as can be reasonably
expected) that Trinity will look and feel the same whether you are running
it under Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu, SUSE, Linux Mint, PCLinuxOS, or even
MacOS. (If that is possible.)
*My personal feelings* are:
- Trinity should be very conservative about moving away from the KDE 3
look and feel. I'm not suggesting that KDE 3 was "perfect" and never
to change anything, but we should be cautious about changing what is
the distinctive Trinity/KDE 3 look. If people want KDE 4, they have
KDE 4. Trinity is for people who want KDE 3's look and feel.
- KDE 3, and Trinity, already have a bewildering array of configuration
options. Adding new options adds complexity and confusion. We should
resist the urge to pile even more options onto the software except
where they bring real benefit.
- If Trinity is to become a serious player in the desktop environment
ecosystem, it needs to have a consistent, and distinct, look and feel
regardless of what distro you run it under.
Thank you for listening.
--
Steven
3:08 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
3) Is it a good thing for Trinity to have a different
look and feel
depending on where you get it from? Alexandre has released Trinity for
PCLinuxOS, which is great. But he's also unilaterally changed the look and
feel by default so that PCLinuxOS Trinity is different from Trinity
elsewhere. Should we encourage that, or should we insist (as much as can be
reasonably expected) that Trinity will look and feel the same whether you
are running it under Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu, SUSE, Linux Mint, PCLinuxOS,
or even MacOS. (If that is possible.)
This is a seriouse issue. From y professinal point of view it's a no-go. TDE
has to have it's defined default appereance (which has to be well-defined
somewhere). Otherwise it's "devide & conquer" played on TDE ... and you
better invest your time somewhere else.
Just my 2 cent.
Nik
6:42 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
Le 25/02/2013 16:08, Mag. Dr. Nikolaus Klepp a écrit :
Hello, I see no problem at all with Alexandre's LiveCD.
It is advertised as an unofficial PCLinuxOS spin, running a customized
Trinity desktop.
Maybe we should make these 2 informations more visibile on the LiveCD
download page ?
Of course, all customizations he has made are not upstream.
People can still install an official CD/DVD PCLinuxOS, then install
Trinity from my repository instead of LiveCD.
Then they will get the default appearance and settings.
When TDE 3.5.13.2 will be out, I will put the PCLinuxOS build in the
official mirrors.
Francois
3) Is it a
good thing for Trinity to have a different look and feel
depending on where you get it from? Alexandre has released Trinity for
PCLinuxOS, which is great. But he's also unilaterally changed the look and
feel by default so that PCLinuxOS Trinity is different from Trinity
elsewhere. Should we encourage that, or should we insist (as much as can be
reasonably expected) that Trinity will look and feel the same whether you
are running it under Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu, SUSE, Linux Mint, PCLinuxOS,
or even MacOS. (If that is possible.)
This is a seriouse issue. From y professinal
point of view it's a no-go. TDE
has to have it's defined default appereance (which has to be well-defined
somewhere). Otherwise it's "devide & conquer" played on TDE ... and
you
better invest your time somewhere else.
Just my 2 cent.
Nik
7:16 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On Monday 25 February 2013 08:48:25 Steven D'Aprano wrote:
*My personal feelings* are:
- Trinity should be very conservative about moving away from the KDE 3
look and feel. I'm not suggesting that KDE 3 was "perfect" and never
to change anything, but we should be cautious about changing what is
the distinctive Trinity/KDE 3 look. If people want KDE 4, they have
KDE 4. Trinity is for people who want KDE 3's look and feel.
I'm not
sure that that is a universal truth. :-) My personal reason for
moving from KDE4 to Trinity was because of the additional "features" that
were forced on me. They excessively slowed down my machine, which is not a
little entry-level one, making it frustrating to use. One of the things that
I like most about KDE in general (3 or 4) is the customizability of its
look-and-feel.
- KDE 3, and Trinity, already have a bewildering array of configuration
options. Adding new options adds complexity and confusion. We should
resist the urge to pile even more options onto the software except
where they bring real benefit.
I wonder if OP's enhancements can be
encapsulated in a separate theme? Then
those who like them can switch to that theme, while others can use the one
they prefer.
Leslie
2:39 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
On 25/02/13 12:32, Alexandre Couture wrote:
Well that's getting a real joke! Once again!
I am not a software developer. I don't know how to make a computer program.
And you tell me that I have added an option to TDE? Certainly not.
You have changed the default settings. That is what I mean by adding an option.
My apologies for the confusion.
Alexandre, I am sorry that I have upset you. I think it is very important for
us all to be grateful for your efforts at packaging Trinity. Thank you again.
But gratitude is not "all, or nothing". I believe that we should be thankful
for your work in packaging Trinity, but *not* thankful that your package
makes Trinity more like KDE 4, and less consistent with Trinity on other
Linux distros.
--
Steven
3 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
Maybe the best solution to this issue is for one or more of the TDE purists
(who want TDE to be exactly like KDE 3.5.10, as far as I can tell), to make
a version of PCLOS with TDE & nothing borrowed from KDE4. The only
downside to that I can think of would be possible fragmentation like Lisi
mentioned.
Cheers,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve(a)pearwood.info>wrote;wrote:
On 25/02/13 12:32, Alexandre Couture wrote:
Well that's getting a real joke! Once again!
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
I am not a software developer. I don't know
how to make a computer
program.
And you tell me that I have added an option to TDE? Certainly not.
You have changed the default settings. That is what I mean by adding an
option.
My apologies for the confusion.
Alexandre, I am sorry that I have upset you. I think it is very important
for
us all to be grateful for your efforts at packaging Trinity. Thank you
again.
But gratitude is not "all, or nothing". I believe that we should be
thankful
for your work in packaging Trinity, but *not* thankful that your package
makes Trinity more like KDE 4, and less consistent with Trinity on other
Linux distros.
--
Steven
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3:10 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
To clarify, I'm not suggesting that Alexandre (or anyone else) be
encouraged to stop making his spin available to others. I am suggesting
that someone else may want to make another spin of PCLOS TDE in addition to
Alexandre's version.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 7:00 AM, C W <elcaseti(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Maybe the best solution to this issue is for one or
more of the TDE
purists (who want TDE to be exactly like KDE 3.5.10, as far as I can tell),
to make a version of PCLOS with TDE & nothing borrowed from KDE4. The only
downside to that I can think of would be possible fragmentation like Lisi
mentioned.
Cheers,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve(a)pearwood.info>wrote;wrote:
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
On 25/02/13 12:32, Alexandre Couture wrote:
Well that's getting a real joke! Once again!
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
I am not a software developer. I don't know
how to make a computer
program.
And you tell me that I have added an option to TDE? Certainly not.
You have changed the default settings. That is what I mean by adding an
option.
My apologies for the confusion.
Alexandre, I am sorry that I have upset you. I think it is very important
for
us all to be grateful for your efforts at packaging Trinity. Thank you
again.
But gratitude is not "all, or nothing". I believe that we should be
thankful
for your work in packaging Trinity, but *not* thankful that your package
makes Trinity more like KDE 4, and less consistent with Trinity on other
Linux distros.
--
Steven
------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
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3:21 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
It seems to me that many distro projects customize their distros quite a
bit, including the various DEs they use. This doesn't seem to result in
driving away most of their users. At least not all of the time. Does the
official KDE4 PCLOS still provide the option of swiching to kde3 style
menu, or kde4 style menu? They used to. Maybe they still do. PCLOS still
has a loyal following.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 7:10 AM, C W <elcaseti(a)gmail.com> wrote:
To clarify, I'm not suggesting that Alexandre (or
anyone else) be
encouraged to stop making his spin available to others. I am suggesting
that someone else may want to make another spin of PCLOS TDE in addition to
Alexandre's version.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 7:00 AM, C W <elcaseti(a)gmail.com> wrote:
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
Maybe the best solution to this issue is for one
or more of the TDE
purists (who want TDE to be exactly like KDE 3.5.10, as far as I can tell),
to make a version of PCLOS with TDE & nothing borrowed from KDE4. The only
downside to that I can think of would be possible fragmentation like Lisi
mentioned.
Cheers,
Elcaset
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve(a)pearwood.info>wrote;wrote:
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
On 25/02/13 12:32, Alexandre Couture wrote:
Well that's getting a real joke! Once again!
--
Free Geek Seattle- Helping The Needy Get Nerdy
http://www.freegeekseattle.org/
https://groups.google.com/group/freegeek-seattle/topics?hl=en
K Desktop Environment- Experience Freedom & User Friendliness
http://kde.org/
Free Lossless Audio Codec
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Flac
Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
I am not a software developer. I don't know
how to make a computer
program.
And you tell me that I have added an option to TDE? Certainly not.
You have changed the default settings. That is what I mean by adding an
option.
My apologies for the confusion.
Alexandre, I am sorry that I have upset you. I think it is very
important for
us all to be grateful for your efforts at packaging Trinity. Thank you
again.
But gratitude is not "all, or nothing". I believe that we should be
thankful
for your work in packaging Trinity, but *not* thankful that your package
makes Trinity more like KDE 4, and less consistent with Trinity on other
Linux distros.
--
Steven
------------------------------**------------------------------**
---------
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lists.pearsoncomputing.net<trinity-users-unsubscribe(a)lists.pearsoncomputing.net>
For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-users-help(a)lists.**
pearsoncomputing.net <trinity-users-help(a)lists.pearsoncomputing.net>
Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.**
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Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.**
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9:01 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
It is advertised as an unofficial PCLinuxOS spin,
running a customized Trinity desktop.
I don't see Alexandre, or anyone else, making claims it is otherwise.
What is the problem?
Although I don't get why anybody would prefer dolphin to konqueror and
for me the default TDE menu is mostly fine.
I made also (not many) changes to default appearance in the (also
unofficial and not claimed to be otherwise) ExeGNU Debian live images.
However they were done mostly in a deb-packaged "theme" which can be
changed (or completely uninstalled) with a few mouse clicks.
11:05 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
Francois Andriot wrote:
Hello, I see no problem at all with Alexandre's
LiveCD.
It is advertised as an unofficial PCLinuxOS spin, running a customized
Trinity desktop.
Yes, it is exactly what it is, and nothing else.
Maybe we should make these 2 informations more visible
on the LiveCD
download page ?
Yes, it's a good idea!
Of course, all customizations he has made are not
upstream.
People can still install an official CD/DVD PCLinuxOS, then install
Trinity from my repository instead of LiveCD.
Then they will get the default appearance and settings.
When TDE 3.5.13.2 will be out, I will put the PCLinuxOS build in the
official mirrors.
Francois
For the next release of my LiveCD, there will be 2 version:
-A version similar to what it is now
-A version that is only the base system with TDE and nothing else. I hope it would fit on
a CD.
As of now, if you want a vanilla version of my remaster, install it (just hope your eyes
won't bleed :) ) and after you
have rebooted and made the first user, as a root, delete everything in /etc/skel/
Then, create a new user and re-login with a 100% vanilla TDE system.
By the way, the ISO of my remaster that is hosted on the TDE website is outdated and
won't update correctly.
PCLinuxOS changed the structure and the servers of their repos.
The new version of my ISO (Jan 15, 2013) is ready out-of-the-box to use their new repos as
it should
and is fully updated.
Thanks!
-Alexandre
26 Feb
26 Feb
3:34 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organisation in Trinity
> By the way, the ISO of my remaster that is hosted
on the TDE website is outdated and won't update correctly.
> PCLinuxOS changed the structure and the servers of their repos.
Personally I use only Debian. One of many reasons: install Debian one
time only then only user error will prevent a clean upgrade path.
However:
Alexandre, I at least appreciate your efforts to produce a TDE live
image (not many exist at all), although pclinuxos, dolphin and your menu
layout are not for me. I know a little of how difficult it can be to get
that just right and that to please everybody is not possible.
I also appreciate the efforts of official TDE in supporting different
distros.
Even if TDE had resources to do "official" live images (as well as
development for R14) there will still be some who will want to do that
unofficially with their own idea of how it should be done. This is
Linux. Everything I did with ExeGNU, including the installer and
TDE-specific live-boot scripts, is GPL. Whoever wants to do their own
build using those tools or their own is free to do so. If you do just
don't expect everybody to like it.
I remember the first Debian image I built and posted here, one man
rudely complained because I refused to add nonfree multimedia apps and
codecs. He either did not notice, was too lazy or lacked the
intelligence to use the included snapshot/remaster tool to make his own
(least of all understand the ethics of Debian)
And why slam KDE4 and Gnome3? A lot of people out there actually do
like and use them For those who don't (including me), they are not
compulsory. TDE, Cinammon and Mate exist and Xfce gained huge popularity
because of a demand for the "traditional desktop" and low resource usage.
I'm certainly not a "conservative" who wants to keep kde 3.5.10 as-was
forever. TDE must develop to survive.. and I hope it does, remaining
focused on low resource usage and the "traditional desktop"
And remember, this topic is about the menu. One of the good things about
TDE is customizability.. install it and do what pleases *you* with it,
you actually can.
David
24 Feb
24 Feb
3:45 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organization in Trinity
On 2013-02-24 08:45 (GMT-0500) Alexandre Couture composed:
I prefer to use the KickOff menu instead of the
classic menu in Trinity
I don't think it ever takes me more than 60 seconds from first opening a new
desktop installation of WinXP or KDE4 until I've made the switch from their
inane default menu styles to their classic menu styles. I'm glad TDE doesn't
make it necessary.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
25 Feb
25 Feb
7:04 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organization in Trinity
On Sunday 24 February 2013 07:45:20 Alexandre Couture wrote:
Hi everyone!
First of all, I would like to say a big thank you to the persons making
Trinity possible!
In PCLinuxOS, between different window manager and desktop environment, the
layout of how apps are classified is very similar, while Trinity has its
own apps classification, which is the same as KDE3. Debian also has an apps
classification that is common across almost all WM and DE.
I have seen somewhere that the next release of TDE will be freedesktop.org
compliant. Does it means that TDE will adopt this new way of organizing
apps? I would like to say that I prefer the new method of organizing the K
menu than the one used in TDE. As an example, let's look at these 3 menu
sub-levels: System, Utilities and Settings. These categories are almost
overlapping in each other and it ends up that something that would be
better placed in Settings ends up being in System or in Utilities. For this
reason, I prefer to use the KickOff menu instead of the classic menu in
Trinity, because I just have to type the name of the program I want to
start in the search bar at the top, and it ends up being faster than trying
to find where is the program I want to start.
Of course, the new way of menu classification is not 100% perfect, but I
would say that, in my opinion, has made it a little more simple to use.
Would it be a good idea to make an option in the menu configuration program
to let the users choose between the Trinity way of organizing the K menu
(as in KDE3) and the new way of organizing the K menu (as in KDE4 and all
the others DE and WM)?
So, what do you think about it?
Have a nice day!
-Alexandre
I've been watching the responses to this thread, and they seem to be avoiding
response to the original issue.
I also am not a developer, but I wonder if such modifications to the
look-and-feel of Trinity should be encapsulated, if possible, as an
additional theme, or in an analogous manner?
Leslie
7:25 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organization in Trinity
On Sunday 24 February 2013 07:45:20 Alexandre Couture
wrote:
My personal opinion is that the new menu structure, regardless of how many
other desktops are using it, goes against the fundamental HCI goals of the
Trinity project by displaying very little information at any given time,
displaying that information in a nondeterministic manner, and requiring
multiple mouse interaction events to launch a program. Therefore, I
recommend against this suggestion, and politely suggest those wishing to
use a semantic desktop look into using KDE and Gnome Shell.
Tim
Hi everyone!
First of all, I would like to say a big thank you to the persons making
Trinity possible!
In PCLinuxOS, between different window manager and desktop environment,
the
layout of how apps are classified is very similar, while Trinity has its
own apps classification, which is the same as KDE3. Debian also has an
apps
classification that is common across almost all WM and DE.
I have seen somewhere that the next release of TDE will be
freedesktop.org
compliant. Does it means that TDE will adopt this new way of organizing
apps? I would like to say that I prefer the new method of organizing the
K
menu than the one used in TDE. As an example, let's look at these 3 menu
sub-levels: System, Utilities and Settings. These categories are almost
overlapping in each other and it ends up that something that would be
better placed in Settings ends up being in System or in Utilities. For
this
reason, I prefer to use the KickOff menu instead of the classic menu in
Trinity, because I just have to type the name of the program I want to
start in the search bar at the top, and it ends up being faster than
trying
to find where is the program I want to start.
Of course, the new way of menu classification is not 100% perfect, but I
would say that, in my opinion, has made it a little more simple to use.
Would it be a good idea to make an option in the menu configuration
program
to let the users choose between the Trinity way of organizing the K menu
(as in KDE3) and the new way of organizing the K menu (as in KDE4 and
all
the others DE and WM)?
So, what do you think about it?
Have a nice day!
-Alexandre
I've been watching the responses to this thread, and they seem to be
avoiding
response to the original issue.
I also am not a developer, but I wonder if such modifications to the
look-and-feel of Trinity should be encapsulated, if possible, as an
additional theme, or in an analogous manner?
Leslie 
7:55 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] K menu organization in Trinity
said Timothy Pearson:
| My personal opinion is that the new menu structure, regardless of
| how many other desktops are using it, goes against the fundamental
| HCI goals of the Trinity project by displaying very little
| information at any given time, displaying that information in a
| nondeterministic manner, and requiring multiple mouse interaction
| events to launch a program. Therefore, I recommend against this
| suggestion, and politely suggest those wishing to use a semantic
| desktop look into using KDE and Gnome Shell.
i'll see you and raise you fifty (having no real dog in this fight,
because i plop down trinity atop (k)ubuntu). i used to keep a gnome
install, so in case i blew up my kde-3.x, i could hop over and get
online and replace whatever i'd been too clever about. but with the
recent upgrade, to 12.04 lts, when i broke it and opened grome i
could not figure out how to do anything at all.
that having been said, it shall be a happy day for me when some kind
of fix of the current kmail certificate-forever-not-taking bug is put
into a nice binary file, because it is driving me entirely insane. a
short trip, admittedly, but one i'd just as soon not take . . .
back on point, and recognizing that the nature of free and open
software is that anyone can do what he or she wants, i do not see
much room for improvement in the kmenu system. there is a tendency
for developers to do things because they can -- witness some of the
changes in the new libreoffice -- rather than because it makes much
sense or makes users happier or serves any other real or imagined
useful purpose.
--
dep
The shortest distance between you and great fingerstyle
guitar playing? The new instructional DVDs from Marjorie
Thompson, available now at www.MarjorieThompson.com
8:49 p.m.
New subject: kMail certificate (was: K menu organization in Trinity)
On Monday 25 February 2013 13:55:03 dep wrote:
said Timothy Pearson:
that having been said, it shall be a happy day for me when some kind
of fix of the current kmail certificate-forever-not-taking bug is put
into a nice binary file, because it is driving me entirely insane. a
short trip, admittedly, but one i'd just as soon not take . . .
This drove me
mad for ages, until I finally broke down and started tinkering
with the Settings. (I don't know if this is the best way to fix this, but I
figure that when an ISP sends certificates with broken authority info, which
apparently is ignored by all those Windoze mail clients, it must be more or
less okay...)
In the Scurity & Privacy Settings, S/MIME Validation tab, I unchecked "Do not
check certificate policies" and "Never consult a CRL", and now kMail
doesn't
gripe about this any more.
Leslie
10:03 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Re: kMail certificate (was: K menu organization in Trinity)
said Leslie Turriff:
| This drove me mad for ages, until I finally broke down and started
| tinkering with the Settings. (I don't know if this is the best way to
| fix this, but I figure that when an ISP sends certificates with broken
| authority info, which apparently is ignored by all those Windoze mail
| clients, it must be more or less okay...)
| In the Scurity & Privacy Settings, S/MIME Validation tab, I unchecked
| "Do not check certificate policies" and "Never consult a CRL", and
now
| kMail doesn't gripe about this any more.
not the safest thing to do, but preferable to insanity -- thanks!
--
dep
The shortest distance between you and playing great acoustic guitar:
the great new instructional DVDs from Marjorie Thompson,
available at www.MarjorieThompson.com
10:05 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Re: kMail certificate (was: K menu organization in Trinity)
said dep:
| said Leslie Turriff:
| | This drove me mad for ages, until I finally broke down and started
| | tinkering with the Settings. (I don't know if this is the best way to
| | fix this, but I figure that when an ISP sends certificates with broken
| | authority info, which apparently is ignored by all those Windoze mail
| | clients, it must be more or less okay...)
| | In the Scurity & Privacy Settings, S/MIME Validation tab, I unchecked
| | "Do not check certificate policies" and "Never consult a CRL", and
now
| | kMail doesn't gripe about this any more.
|
| not the safest thing to do, but preferable to insanity -- thanks!
well, except for one thing: it didn't solve the problem.
--
dep
The shortest distance between you and playing great acoustic guitar:
the great new instructional DVDs from Marjorie Thompson,
available at www.MarjorieThompson.com
10:21 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Re: kMail certificate (was: K menu organization in Trinity)
On Monday 25 February 2013 16:05:27 dep wrote:
said dep:
| said Leslie Turriff:
| | This drove me mad for ages, until I finally broke down and started
| | tinkering with the Settings. (I don't know if this is the best way to
| | fix this, but I figure that when an ISP sends certificates with broken
| | authority info, which apparently is ignored by all those Windoze mail
| | clients, it must be more or less okay...)
| | In the Scurity & Privacy Settings, S/MIME Validation tab, I unchecked
| | "Do not check certificate policies" and "Never consult a CRL",
and now
| | kMail doesn't gripe about this any more.
|
| not the safest thing to do, but preferable to insanity -- thanks!
well, except for one thing: it didn't solve the problem.
Hmmm... I don't think I changed anything else to fix it. Maybe your ISP's
certificate problem is different than mine?
11:49 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Re: kMail certificate
On 26/02/13 09:21, Leslie Turriff wrote:
On Monday 25 February 2013 16:05:27 dep wrote:
I think you missed the point Dep is making.
The *actual* problem is that when KMail comes across a broken certificate, and
you tell it "Remember this one is okay forever", it *does not* remember that it
is okay forever.
Telling KMail "never check the certificates" does not solve the
problem, since that stops KMail from complaining *at all*. It completely breaks
when you have a situation like this:
- Site X certificate is broken, and I trust it forever;
- Site Y certificate is broken, but I only trust it this one time;
- I don't trust site Z at all unless the certificate is valid.
--
Steven
said dep:
| said Leslie Turriff:
| | This drove me mad for ages, until I finally broke down and started
| | tinkering with the Settings. (I don't know if this is the best way to
| | fix this, but I figure that when an ISP sends certificates with broken
| | authority info, which apparently is ignored by all those Windoze mail
| | clients, it must be more or less okay...)
| | In the Scurity & Privacy Settings, S/MIME Validation tab, I unchecked
| | "Do not check certificate policies" and "Never consult a CRL",
and now
| | kMail doesn't gripe about this any more.
|
| not the safest thing to do, but preferable to insanity -- thanks!
well, except for one thing: it didn't solve the problem.
Hmmm... I don't think I changed anything else to fix it. Maybe your ISP's
certificate problem is different than mine?
26 Feb
26 Feb
1:03 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Re: kMail certificate
On Monday 25 February 2013 17:49:14 Steven D'Aprano wrote:
I think you missed the point Dep is making.
The *actual* problem is that when KMail comes across a broken certificate,
and you tell it "Remember this one is okay forever", it *does not* remember
that it is okay forever.
Telling KMail "never check the certificates" does not solve the
problem, since that stops KMail from complaining *at all*. It completely
breaks when you have a situation like this:
- Site X certificate is broken, and I trust it forever;
- Site Y certificate is broken, but I only trust it this one time;
- I don't trust site Z at all unless the certificate is valid.
No, as I stated
in my first post, I realize that this is not the proper way
to fix the issue, but since I've never seen a fix in all the years of using
kMail3, I took it upon myself to at least reduce the aggravation, with an
admittedly lousy solution.
25 Feb
25 Feb
11:50 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Re: kMail certificate (was: K menu organization in Trinity)
said Leslie Turriff:
| Hmmm... I don't think I changed anything else to fix it. Maybe your
| ISP's certificate problem is different than mine?
could be. this one throws the "The IP address of the host www.
[hostname].org does not match the one the certificate was issued to." fair
enough. then i am prompted to accept it this once or forever. i click
on "forever." which matters not a whit, because the next time i check the
mail, the same thing happens. doesn't even stick when i don't restart or
anything.
it was a known bug in the kde-3.x crowd, which they resolved by bringing
out kde4, which i despise. it was noted on the trinity bug list and
someone made a patch, which time was kind enough to give me instructions
on compiling but which simply refused to go here.
(it has been awhile since i compiled anything here; not since it
was "configure -prefix=/opt/kde" "make" "make install" -- i
even once
wrote that kde was getting so big that i could drive from newtown, ct., to
key west, fla., in the time it took:
http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/3420/1 )
the odd thing is that this issue did not exist in the previous trinity
distribution (or kubuntu 10.04; it's not clear to me exactly where the
failure to believe that "forever" means forever resides). it got
introduced somehow. i would like to figure out what file contains the
malignancy and see if i can replace it with an earlier version -- or
something.
--
dep
The shortest distance between you and playing great acoustic guitar:
the great new instructional DVDs from Marjorie Thompson,
available at www.MarjorieThompson.com
26 Feb
26 Feb
1:02 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Re: kMail certificate (was: K menu organization in Trinity)
On Monday 25 February 2013 17:50:33 dep wrote:
it was a known bug in the kde-3.x crowd, which they
resolved by bringing
out kde4, which i despise.
kMail4 is one of the principal reasons I abandoned
KDE4; I often go for
several days between email downloads, and kMail3 can take several minutes to
resync; but kMail4 took /hours./
4077
days inactive
4079
days old
45 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
Alexandre Couture -
Andy -
C W -
David Hare -
dep -
Felix Miata -
Felmon Davis -
François Andriot -
JB -
Leslie Turriff -
Lisi Reisz -
Mag. Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
Steven D'Aprano -
Timothy Pearson