On 1/23/11, David C. Rankin drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
On 01/22/2011 04:48 PM, Katheryne Draven wrote:
As requested by some people (Xu_R AKA The Old Man) an odt and pdf of the reasoning behind my kmenu setup.
I would appreciate any input to improve the setup.
Thanks
Kate
Thank you Kate!
I generally spend a couple of hours sorting apps into their logical places when I start with a fresh install. Standardizing kmenu into a logical order limiting each menu/submenu entry to ~ 10-15 items with a max depth of ~4 is much needed. Here are two thoughts for consideration:
(1) of the existing distros that did a good job with kmenu, SuSE's inclusion of a 'Utilities' submenu that held all the kde apps really helped with organization. Here is a shot of what I adapted from an old openSuSE 11.0 install:
[93k] http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/dt/trinity/ss/kmenu-utilities.jpg
(2) everybody also has a subset of applications they use most frequently. What I call "mytools" or I guess what "User-Apps" is intended for in your setup. For what it is worth, here is a shot of the collection of mytools that may have a submenu or two that may be of interest:
[138k] http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/dt/trinity/ss/kmenu-mytools.jpg
(I don't know how the duplicate basket entries got there. On suse, when you edit the gnome menu, you often get unwanted side-effects in the k3 menu as well)
I think this effort to tame the kmenu jungle is well worth the time and I thank you for your efforts.
-- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com
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Thank you David
All of this (your input and images) is very useful. I did have a Utilities menu, but I had trouble figuring out what should go in there. What constituted "system" and "utility" apps (or tools perhaps?).
I do the same thing (reorganizing the kmenu), and its something I noticed my users doing as well. When 108 different people start fiddling about with kmenu I asked why. The usual answers were, "its out of order", "nothing is where its supposed to be", or "it doesn't make sense the way it is. They all thought it was a defect like the kind they experienced when using windows (adding an item to the startmenu throws everything off).
When I asked them for a mockup of what they thought it should be like, what made sense to them, I got the basic of what we have here. Looking at SuSe, it seems they did a similar study or someting.
I think we need to focus first on the parent directories (Office or Desktop Publishing, Tools, Utilities, etc etc) then work on the subdirectories. I think the apps should help us determine what subdirectories are needed. I urge the use of proper computer terminology, avoiding the use of "MS Terms". We should mean to education as well, after all knowledge is freedom (among other good things).
With regard to "mytools", it smacks too much as a homage to MS, with its "My this" and "My that", but in the end its not my decision. Its clearly something Trinity as a whole must make. I do urge against the use of MS terminology. I understand the belief that if its familiar, it will make the use more comfortable. That, however, has not been my eXPerience :). Users who leave windows for Linux cringe when they see references to it. They're finally free of their master, why would they wish to build a shrine to it? The use of MS terms, also reinforces the belief that Linux is just a second rate Windos wannabe.
OH BLAST! Where did this soapbox come from??!!
Kate
On Mon, 2011-01-24 at 09:01 -0500, Katheryne Draven wrote:
On 1/23/11, David C. Rankin drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
<snip>
I think we need to focus first on the parent directories (Office or Desktop Publishing, Tools, Utilities, etc etc) then work on the subdirectories. I think the apps should help us determine what subdirectories are needed. I urge the use of proper computer terminology, avoiding the use of "MS Terms". We should mean to education as well, after all knowledge is freedom (among other good things).
With regard to "mytools", it smacks too much as a homage to MS, with its "My this" and "My that", but in the end its not my decision. Its clearly something Trinity as a whole must make. I do urge against the use of MS terminology. I understand the belief that if its familiar, it will make the use more comfortable. That, however, has not been my eXPerience :). Users who leave windows for Linux cringe when they see references to it. They're finally free of their master, why would they wish to build a shrine to it? The use of MS terms, also reinforces the belief that Linux is just a second rate Windos wannabe.
OH BLAST! Where did this soapbox come from??!!
<snip> <grin> I'd be a little careful of the soap box, though. I have little respect for Microsoft practices but, as someone on the front lines of Windows -> Linux conversions, familiarity is critically important. People have businesses to run and could care less about educating themselves (rightfully). They just want to be able to drive the car without knowing how it works. So, where something is functional (folder vs. directory) we might be able to make the case (frankly, folder is probably more familiar to those who consider a directory structure analogous to a filing cabinet while directory makes much more sense to IT types) but, where it's simply a name, we could call it lampshade for all I care but keeping things familiar remove possible stumbling blocks to adoption. Office politics can be mighty powerful and if the opponents are all crying, "it's all different and we don't have time to learn it," they can turn the tide on a conversion effort. I vote for familiarity even if it makes me cringe. Thanks - John
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:58:30PM -0500, John A. Sullivan III wrote:
On Mon, 2011-01-24 at 09:01 -0500, Katheryne Draven wrote:
On 1/23/11, David C. Rankin drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
<snip> > I think we need to focus first on the parent directories (Office or > Desktop Publishing, Tools, Utilities, etc etc) then work on the > subdirectories. I think the apps should help us determine what > subdirectories are needed. I urge the use of proper computer > terminology, avoiding the use of "MS Terms". We should mean to > education as well, after all knowledge is freedom (among other good > things). > > With regard to "mytools", it smacks too much as a homage to MS, with > its "My this" and "My that", but in the end its not my decision. Its > clearly something Trinity as a whole must make. I do urge against the > use of MS terminology. I understand the belief that if its familiar, > it will make the use more comfortable. That, however, has not been my > eXPerience :). Users who leave windows for Linux cringe when they see > references to it. They're finally free of their master, why would they > wish to build a shrine to it? The use of MS terms, also reinforces the > belief that Linux is just a second rate Windos wannabe. > > OH BLAST! Where did this soapbox come from??!! > <snip> <grin> I'd be a little careful of the soap box, though. I have little respect for Microsoft practices but, as someone on the front lines of Windows -> Linux conversions, familiarity is critically important. People have businesses to run and could care less about educating themselves (rightfully). They just want to be able to drive the car without knowing how it works. So, where something is functional (folder vs. directory) we might be able to make the case (frankly, folder is probably more familiar to those who consider a directory structure analogous to a filing cabinet while directory makes much more sense to IT types) but, where it's simply a name, we could call it lampshade for all I care but keeping things familiar remove possible stumbling blocks to adoption. Office politics can be mighty powerful and if the opponents are all crying, "it's all different and we don't have time to learn it," they can turn the tide on a conversion effort. I vote for familiarity even if it makes me cringe. Thanks - John
I think the KDE 3 -> KDE 4 disaster has much to do with a kind of take-over by ms-centric thinking. Sure, hard to quantify, but with KDE 3 I always had the feeling it moves in principle into the right direction, while with KDE 4 this basic trust is completely lost (on a daily basic --- I have to use it under various circumstances).
More concretely, names like "my ..." are infantil. Anything which is worth something is about doing the right thing, not about doing something to gain power (and "keepings things familiar etc." is basically that). Sure people can go for the power, but was that the starting point of Trinity (I hoped it would have something to do with the "right thing")?
If the argument is about what that "right thing" actually is, sure, that's not so easy, but just relating to the status quo and following it is just opportunism, which even pays out only for very few (the rest fights for the coins thrown into the pack).
My hope of Trinity would be that it would be a bit of a radical spearhead (at least radical in the sense of quality, and in the sense of not giving up on what KDE 3 achieved).
Oliver
On Mon, 2011-01-24 at 18:24 +0000, Oliver Kullmann wrote:
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:58:30PM -0500, John A. Sullivan III wrote:
On Mon, 2011-01-24 at 09:01 -0500, Katheryne Draven wrote:
On 1/23/11, David C. Rankin drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
<snip> > I think we need to focus first on the parent directories (Office or > Desktop Publishing, Tools, Utilities, etc etc) then work on the > subdirectories. I think the apps should help us determine what > subdirectories are needed. I urge the use of proper computer > terminology, avoiding the use of "MS Terms". We should mean to > education as well, after all knowledge is freedom (among other good > things). > > With regard to "mytools", it smacks too much as a homage to MS, with > its "My this" and "My that", but in the end its not my decision. Its > clearly something Trinity as a whole must make. I do urge against the > use of MS terminology. I understand the belief that if its familiar, > it will make the use more comfortable. That, however, has not been my > eXPerience :). Users who leave windows for Linux cringe when they see > references to it. They're finally free of their master, why would they > wish to build a shrine to it? The use of MS terms, also reinforces the > belief that Linux is just a second rate Windos wannabe. > > OH BLAST! Where did this soapbox come from??!! > <snip> <grin> I'd be a little careful of the soap box, though. I have little respect for Microsoft practices but, as someone on the front lines of Windows -> Linux conversions, familiarity is critically important. People have businesses to run and could care less about educating themselves (rightfully). They just want to be able to drive the car without knowing how it works. So, where something is functional (folder vs. directory) we might be able to make the case (frankly, folder is probably more familiar to those who consider a directory structure analogous to a filing cabinet while directory makes much more sense to IT types) but, where it's simply a name, we could call it lampshade for all I care but keeping things familiar remove possible stumbling blocks to adoption. Office politics can be mighty powerful and if the opponents are all crying, "it's all different and we don't have time to learn it," they can turn the tide on a conversion effort. I vote for familiarity even if it makes me cringe. Thanks - John
I think the KDE 3 -> KDE 4 disaster has much to do with a kind of take-over by ms-centric thinking. Sure, hard to quantify, but with KDE 3 I always had the feeling it moves in principle into the right direction, while with KDE 4 this basic trust is completely lost (on a daily basic --- I have to use it under various circumstances).
More concretely, names like "my ..." are infantil. Anything which is worth something is about doing the right thing, not about doing something to gain power (and "keepings things familiar etc." is basically that). Sure people can go for the power, but was that the starting point of Trinity (I hoped it would have something to do with the "right thing")?
If the argument is about what that "right thing" actually is, sure, that's not so easy, but just relating to the status quo and following it is just opportunism, which even pays out only for very few (the rest fights for the coins thrown into the pack).
My hope of Trinity would be that it would be a bit of a radical spearhead (at least radical in the sense of quality, and in the sense of not giving up on what KDE 3 achieved).
<snip> I would like to politely disagree while admitting that many others on the list may be better qualified than I to address this issue. However, my impression of why KDE4 has been such a problem has not been the MS imitation but their prioritization of developer interests over user interests - a neat new paradigm, a fun playground, but something that should have been pursued as R&D while not abandoning the production KDE3. I think the understandable response from the KDE devs was they don't have the time for both and their interested in development and not production support - hence the importance of Trinity as a Desktop Environment that focuses on production usability rather than fun and novel paradigms.
I agree that "my . . " is infantile. I don't like it at all and I feel stupid using it. However, if we impose our opinions of what computing should be on end users, we risk driving into the same ditch as the KDE4 devs. In some cases, we really do have to think for our users and make decisions in spite of them. But, where it is not critical, I would hope we would sacrifice our "purism" which is technically correct and elegant for what is more likely to make Trinity desktops face the least resistance to adoption.
Again, I don't want to set off a war and am perfectly willing to defer. Just wanted to share my opinion after dealing with lots of end users who struggle during conversions and trying to remove as many obstacles for them as possible even if it smacks of Microsoftisms. Who knows, even though we approach it from different directions, we may all look at the end product and say, "that's just what I meant!" Thanks - John
On Mon, 2011-01-24 at 18:24 +0000, Oliver Kullmann wrote:
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:58:30PM -0500, John A. Sullivan III wrote:
On Mon, 2011-01-24 at 09:01 -0500, Katheryne Draven wrote:
On 1/23/11, David C. Rankin drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
<snip> > I think we need to focus first on the parent directories (Office or > Desktop Publishing, Tools, Utilities, etc etc) then work on the > subdirectories. I think the apps should help us determine what > subdirectories are needed. I urge the use of proper computer > terminology, avoiding the use of "MS Terms". We should mean to > education as well, after all knowledge is freedom (among other good > things). > > With regard to "mytools", it smacks too much as a homage to MS, with > its "My this" and "My that", but in the end its not my decision. Its > clearly something Trinity as a whole must make. I do urge against
the
use of MS terminology. I understand the belief that if its familiar, it will make the use more comfortable. That, however, has not been
my
eXPerience :). Users who leave windows for Linux cringe when they
see
references to it. They're finally free of their master, why would
they
wish to build a shrine to it? The use of MS terms, also reinforces
the
belief that Linux is just a second rate Windos wannabe.
OH BLAST! Where did this soapbox come from??!!
<snip> <grin> I'd be a little careful of the soap box, though. I have little respect for Microsoft practices but, as someone on the front lines of Windows -> Linux conversions, familiarity is critically important. People have businesses to run and could care less about educating themselves (rightfully). They just want to be able to drive the car without knowing how it works. So, where something is functional
(folder
vs. directory) we might be able to make the case (frankly, folder is probably more familiar to those who consider a directory structure analogous to a filing cabinet while directory makes much more sense to IT types) but, where it's simply a name, we could call it lampshade
for
all I care but keeping things familiar remove possible stumbling
blocks
to adoption. Office politics can be mighty powerful and if the
opponents
are all crying, "it's all different and we don't have time to learn
it,"
they can turn the tide on a conversion effort. I vote for familiarity even if it makes me cringe. Thanks - John
I think the KDE 3 -> KDE 4 disaster has much to do with a kind of take-over by ms-centric thinking. Sure, hard to quantify, but with KDE 3 I always had the feeling it moves in principle into the right direction, while with KDE 4 this basic trust is completely lost (on a daily basic --- I have to use it under various circumstances).
More concretely, names like "my ..." are infantil. Anything which is worth something is about doing the right thing, not about doing something to gain power (and "keepings things familiar etc." is basically that). Sure people can go for the power, but was that the starting point of Trinity (I hoped it would have something to do with the "right thing")?
If the argument is about what that "right thing" actually is, sure, that's not so easy, but just relating to the status quo and following it is just opportunism, which even pays out only for very few (the rest fights for the coins thrown into the pack).
My hope of Trinity would be that it would be a bit of a radical spearhead (at least radical in the sense of quality, and in the sense of not giving up on what KDE 3 achieved).
<snip> I would like to politely disagree while admitting that many others on the list may be better qualified than I to address this issue. However, my impression of why KDE4 has been such a problem has not been the MS imitation but their prioritization of developer interests over user interests - a neat new paradigm, a fun playground, but something that should have been pursued as R&D while not abandoning the production KDE3. I think the understandable response from the KDE devs was they don't have the time for both and their interested in development and not production support - hence the importance of Trinity as a Desktop Environment that focuses on production usability rather than fun and novel paradigms.
I agree that "my . . " is infantile. I don't like it at all and I feel stupid using it. However, if we impose our opinions of what computing should be on end users, we risk driving into the same ditch as the KDE4 devs. In some cases, we really do have to think for our users and make decisions in spite of them. But, where it is not critical, I would hope we would sacrifice our "purism" which is technically correct and elegant for what is more likely to make Trinity desktops face the least resistance to adoption.
Again, I don't want to set off a war and am perfectly willing to defer. Just wanted to share my opinion after dealing with lots of end users who struggle during conversions and trying to remove as many obstacles for them as possible even if it smacks of Microsoftisms. Who knows, even though we approach it from different directions, we may all look at the end product and say, "that's just what I meant!" Thanks - John
Without jumping into the fray, may I ask for suggestions as to what text should replace My Computer, My Network Places, etc? I am open to renaming them if it makes sense.
Thanks!
Tim
Without jumping into the fray, may I ask for suggestions as to what text should replace My Computer, My Network Places, etc? I am open to renaming them if it makes sense.
Since "my" is superfluous (it would only make sense if there were "your" or "Helen's" computer ...), I would just call it "Computer", "NetworkPlaces" etc.
Oliver
Am Montag, 24. Januar 2011 schrieb Oliver Kullmann:
Without jumping into the fray, may I ask for suggestions as to what text should replace My Computer, My Network Places, etc? I am open to renaming them if it makes sense.
Since "my" is superfluous (it would only make sense if there were "your" or "Helen's" computer ...), I would just call it "Computer", "NetworkPlaces" etc.
I'd also say so. It's not funny to find a jungle of my-somethings on my computer.
Am Montag, 24. Januar 2011 schrieb Oliver Kullmann:
Without jumping into the fray, may I ask for suggestions as to what
text
should replace My Computer, My Network Places, etc? I am open to renaming them if it makes sense.
Since "my" is superfluous (it would only make sense if there were "your" or "Helen's" computer ...), I would just call it "Computer", "NetworkPlaces" etc.
I'd also say so. It's not funny to find a jungle of my-somethings on my computer.
How about "Local Computer" and "Remote Computers" or "Network Shares"?
Also, what should be done about "My Documents"?
Tim
On 2011/01/24 14:34 (GMT-0600) Timothy Pearson composed:
Also, what should be done about "My Documents"?
Something wrong with simply "Documents"? The one's I've saved locally aren't necessarily mine anyway.
On 2011/01/24 14:34 (GMT-0600) Timothy Pearson composed:
Also, what should be done about "My Documents"?
Something wrong with simply "Documents"? The one's I've saved locally aren't necessarily mine anyway.
Well, I do want to convey to the user that the Documents folder is unique to his or her profile, unlike the other shortcuts which point to shared system resources that are identical across all profiles. Personally I like "My Documents", but other alternatives could be "Personal Documents", "Personal Files" or similar.
Thoughts?
Tim
Am Montag, 24. Januar 2011 schrieb Timothy Pearson:
On 2011/01/24 14:34 (GMT-0600) Timothy Pearson composed:
Also, what should be done about "My Documents"?
Something wrong with simply "Documents"? The one's I've saved locally aren't necessarily mine anyway.
Well, I do want to convey to the user that the Documents folder is unique to his or her profile, unlike the other shortcuts which point to shared system resources that are identical across all profiles. Personally I like "My Documents", but other alternatives could be "Personal Documents", "Personal Files" or similar.
Thoughts?
"Personal Files" sounds ok to me - as long as the user can get rid of it easily. Just speaking for myself, I do not use predefined loations like ~/Documents or something like that and I absolutely dislike any System where I cannot get rid of that stuff. Well, probably because my filing system is around since '95 ...
How about simply "Personal"?
| Personally I | like "My Documents", but other alternatives could be "Personal Documents", | "Personal Files" or similar. | | Thoughts?
On 2011/01/24 14:52 (GMT-0600) Timothy Pearson composed:
On 2011/01/24 14:34 (GMT-0600) Timothy Pearson composed:
Something wrong with simply "Documents"? The one's I've saved locally aren't necessarily mine anyway.
Well, I do want to convey to the user that the Documents folder is unique to his or her profile, unlike the other shortcuts which point to shared
I think it conveyed well enough by having logged into a personal profile that uses $HOME.
system resources that are identical across all profiles. Personally I like "My Documents", but other alternatives could be "Personal Documents", "Personal Files" or similar.
Some people are like me and need none of those as a menu item. We know what app opens the kind of file we want to deal with, and so open the app, and use its file picker to choose what to work with.
Speaking of which, https://bug24625.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=87914 from https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24625 shows the ancient file picker that is the reason I still use OS/2 more than anything else for routine chores. Most recent dir, most recent file, and most common dir are the bare minimum acceptable to me for any systemwide file picker. The time I waste getting the same file reloaded or into another app, or a sibling file loaded, on anything other than OS/2 is gigantic compared to OS/2. I thought I filed a KDE bug about this a very long time ago, but can't seem to find it now. Maybe I did on Mandriva or Novell's trackers.
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
On 2011/01/24 14:52 (GMT-0600) Timothy Pearson composed:
On 2011/01/24 14:34 (GMT-0600) Timothy Pearson composed:
Something wrong with simply "Documents"? The one's I've saved locally
aren't necessarily mine anyway.
Well, I do want to convey to the user that the Documents folder is unique
to his or her profile, unlike the other shortcuts which point to shared
I think it conveyed well enough by having logged into a personal profile that uses $HOME.
system resources that are identical across all profiles. Personally I
like "My Documents", but other alternatives could be "Personal Documents", "Personal Files" or similar.
Some people are like me and need none of those as a menu item. We know what app opens the kind of file we want to deal with, and so open the app, and use its file picker to choose what to work with.
Speaking of which, https://bug24625.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=87914 from https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24625 shows the ancient file picker that is the reason I still use OS/2 more than anything else for routine chores. Most recent dir, most recent file, and most common dir are the bare minimum acceptable to me for any systemwide file picker. The time I waste getting the same file reloaded or into another app, or a sibling file loaded, on anything other than OS/2 is gigantic compared to OS/2. I thought I filed a KDE bug about this a very long time ago, but can't seem to find it now. Maybe I did on Mandriva or Novell's trackers.
Interesting approach. This would actually be very useful.
Best regards, Tiago
Hi all,
From what I've read on this thread, here is a quick recap from what I see useful for KMenu:
- A search function for KMenu listed programs, a la katapult. - Most used applications clearly visible (essential for someone who's not familiar with computers) - Simple menus: - Applications ordered by name - No submenus for categories by default - Group support - Descriptions in kmenu items. - Easily editable menus - Draggable icons to and from the desktop and taskbar/panels to the kmenu - More easily identifiable KMenu button and one that can be customized by distros while still showing that it has the same function as the stock Trinity button.
*A search function for KMenu listed programs, a la katapult.* * * This saves time, especially if you're a power user. If you already know what you want, you shouldn't be forced to travel through the menus, nor write the applications executable name.
*Applications stored by name* * * I think this is the easiest way to identify something in a listing, if you don't know the icon.
*No submenus for categories by default*
It is not practical to use this and it is problematic to travel through auto selecting folders with this. For instance, I have been living with the 1 to 2 entries per subfolder in the Utilities category in KMenu for ages and it bugs me. They're so little apps that it is counterproductive to having them on a subfolder. While I agree that it is a problem to have a screen filed with entries, it could alternatively be provided a button to click down on a list that is greater than "x" entries. Something easy to use, perhaps bigger than the entries themselves so that you don't accidentally click outside the menu and it closes everything. One of the big problems of excessive submenus is that they extend to the right of the first popup of the menu, sometimes excessively. My KDE3 setup is extending to almost half my 16:10 screen when I let it over the "Office" menu, without submenus. This is due to two things:
- Excessibly large program names on the favorites list: GNU Image Manipulation Program - Image Editor - KMenu doesn't deal with this problem gracefully and it gets worse with excessive submenus.
*Group support* * * While I don't think this is essential, it could be useful for navigation and to avoid subfolders. You would have:
Internet -> Chrome (Notice the alfabetic order) Firefox Konqueror Opera ------------ (KMENU separator, placed automatically for different groups) Konversation Kopete Pidgin ------------ aMule KTorrent
I guess something like this would facilitate navigation, even though some apps already provide this. * * *Descriptions in kmenu items.*
Office -> OpenOffice.org Base (Database) OpenOffice.org Draw (Drawing Program) OpenOffice.org Math (Formula Editor)
The current description is shown after "-" but it could, alternatively, be in parenthesis or, in a nicer way, be in parenthesis and stylized to be in smaller lets and in a lighter color tone so it doesn't get in the way of the more important information: the program's name. This description is very important nonetheless to someone who does not know what program it should use.
*Easily editable menus, draggable icons to and from the desktop and taskbar/panels to the kmenu*
Usability features. The current editor requires a save process which is rather strange on modern desktop environments. Draggable icons is useful IMO and has been around for ages. It is not an essential feature but it is one I miss, especially if I want to drag one to a panel for quick access.
*More easily identifiable KMenu button and one that can be customized by distros while still showing that it has the same function as the stock Trinity button.* * * While the windows "Start" button is a rather strange concept, the fact that the button is visually distinct is a win. Even on new versions of windows 7, there's nothing like that round button which conveys a different functionality to the user. Gnome also gets points for having the description of the menu as a button, even though I think it lacks a bit for not looking a button, especially as it does not give feedback on hover.
I appreciate any thoughts on this.
Best regards, Tiago
KDE 3 actually has konqueror linked to the Home folder with a "Personal Files" description. I would clean the Home name and the description and treat home as just "Personal Files". It would also be rather nice to forego the traditional Desktop folder to hold the contents of the desktop and use the home folder for it since in a desktop environment use it tends to be neglected for it's purpose, which is exactly storing personal files, in favor of the Desktop folder. Some distros place the Documents folder outside of the Desktop folder, which from an interface standpoint tends to be more confusing IMHO.
Best regards, Tiago
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:52 PM, Timothy Pearson < kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net> wrote:
On 2011/01/24 14:34 (GMT-0600) Timothy Pearson composed:
Also, what should be done about "My Documents"?
Something wrong with simply "Documents"? The one's I've saved locally aren't necessarily mine anyway.
Well, I do want to convey to the user that the Documents folder is unique to his or her profile, unlike the other shortcuts which point to shared system resources that are identical across all profiles. Personally I like "My Documents", but other alternatives could be "Personal Documents", "Personal Files" or similar.
Thoughts?
Tim
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On 01/24/2011 02:45 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/01/24 14:34 (GMT-0600) Timothy Pearson composed:
Also, what should be done about "My Documents"?
Something wrong with simply "Documents"? The one's I've saved locally aren't necessarily mine anyway.
I agree with just "Documents". If you don't know who's documents are on your box, you have more issues to worry about :p
Felix -- Good to see you here my friend!
On 01/24/2011 04:16 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
I agree with just "Documents". If you don't know who's documents are on your box, you have more issues to worry about :p
I don't see it as a matter of WHOS documents, just DOCUMENTS needs a place to BE, and I always hated "My Documents" because of the SPACE in the name, it always made CDing there a challenge, and an unecessary issue. +1 my vote for "Documents".
+1
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Oliver Kullmann O.Kullmann@swansea.ac.ukwrote:
Without jumping into the fray, may I ask for suggestions as to what text should replace My Computer, My Network Places, etc? I am open to
renaming
them if it makes sense.
Since "my" is superfluous (it would only make sense if there were "your" or "Helen's" computer ...), I would just call it "Computer", "NetworkPlaces" etc.
Oliver
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On 2011/01/24 13:26 (GMT-0600) Timothy Pearson composed:
Without jumping into the fray, may I ask for suggestions as to what text should replace My Computer, My Network Places, etc?
This Computer, or This Host
Network Connections, or Other Computers, or Network Computers, or Connectable Computers, or Nearby Computers, or Nearby Connections
NAS is first reason that comes to mind to think not Computers for other than "This".
On 01/24/2011 08:01 AM, Katheryne Draven wrote:
With regard to "mytools", it smacks too much as a homage to MS, with its "My this" and "My that", but in the end its not my decision. Its clearly something Trinity as a whole must make. I do urge against the use of MS terminology. I understand the belief that if its familiar, it will make the use more comfortable. That, however, has not been my eXPerience :). Users who leave windows for Linux cringe when they see references to it. They're finally free of their master, why would they wish to build a shrine to it? The use of MS terms, also reinforces the belief that Linux is just a second rate Windos wannabe.
OH BLAST! Where did this soapbox come from??!!
Kate
Thanks Kate.
I wasn't suggesting 'mytools' as a name. I hate it actually. If you look at either screenshot you will see a 'dcrtools' which is what I used as my favorites, but for some reason, editing my gnome menu caused all my menu entries in 'dcrtools' (as well as the other main menu subfolders to disappear). So until I had a chance to figure out where the bug was, I just created a quick mytools as a work-around)
I agree, the top menu should be decided and then go from there. (the foundation is the most important part of any building...) Here are a few thoughts for consideration:
Kmenu Top Level DIRECTORIES (about 12): Desktop Publishing (Contains everything related to published documents of all kinds)
I have always viewed DTP is a subset of 'office'. Why? Not from a MS office approach, but from an 'office' approach of where you go to create 'work product' or document creation for lack of better words. DTP, to me, is just a specialized branch of object based page layout oriented word processing. When I think about top level entries for this type thing, I think:
Office ------------ quick list of 3-5 most used apps ------------ accounting gnucash, etc desktop publishing scribus, etc.. crossover office word, excel, etc. koffice kword, etc.. openoffice base calc calc impress math writer
The top level could just as easily be called 'Document' or the like. Something that implies "here is where you go to get real work done." I see it as encompassing the apps that take care of business (professional or personal) needs.
Alternately, DTP goes fine as a subfolder of Graphics.
Development
I have always liked this one.
Edutainment & Health
I like it. SuSE's breakdown of the Edutainment (old Education) top level is as follows:
Astronomy Chemical (I prefer Chemistry) Construction (I don't like this one. All drawing apps like qcad, inkscape, etc.. should either go under Graphics/vector or Graphics/illustration or Graphics/CAD) Language Mathematics Teaching
** Genealogy apps need a home somewhere as well
Emulators
I think this goes as System/Emulators. Just my .02, but I don't see the need for a toplevel for Vbox, wine, etc.
Games
It's a keeper.
Graphics (symlinked)
I think graphics stands alone. It hold the collection of 3rd party tools and all the great KDE3 graphic utilities. I think that it can hold the major graphics apps directly and can be further subdivided with logical subfolders that relate to the type of tools they contain like:
------------ quick list of 3-5 most used apps ------------ Bitmap Graphics Gfx Utilites (or KDE Graphics or KDE Utilities) kcolorchooser kruler, etc.. Icon Tools Vector Drawing
Lost & Found Multimedia (both audio and video)
I don't do enough of this to really comment, but I like divisions that give you:
------------ quick list of 3-5 most used apps (i.e. k3b, audacity, etc..) ------------ Audio Burning Composition Ripping Video Burning Composition Ripping
Network (I think Network is a subfolder of Settings, and the Toplevel should be 'Internet' or 'Inet')
Settings
I have never liked a toplevel called settings because it is confusing to users. Think about it. You (from a tech savy standpoint) know that you have 'Desktop Settings' and 'System (or hardware) Settings', but the average user can really make that distinction. I have always thought 'Settings' belonged in 'System' (i.e. System/Settings), but then the question becomes what goes in their as opposed to say under 'System/Network'. But for purposes of hammering out at toplevel, I suggest that 'Settings' be moved as a sub of System. There has always been great debate about what goes under 'System' to begin with. I see having a toplevel of both Settings and System as further muddying the water.
System
This is where I think we break down the parts of the computer. Display, Network, Sound, etc.. I think it is also a fine place to have 'KDE Desktop Settings' or just 'KDE Desktop'. There has always been inherent confusion between the words 'Desktop' and 'Display' from the user perspective. I think we get around that by qualifying the two well enough that it is immediately apparent which is which. Something like:
KDE Desktop Settings Video Card Settings (or Graphics Hardware Settings)
User-Apps (This is a special directory that initially remains empty. Users can place their fav apps and link other menu subdir into this one. Some distros I proposed this to are now calling it a “favourite” directory.)
I think either one is fine. KDE3 has always provided the most efficient (quickest) access to launch your apps hands down. This 'quick' or 'crispness' in access is an asset of the desktop that I think needs to be kept in mind and furthered in trinity development. Whether you call it User-Apps, Favourites or Quick-List, I think it is a good idea to provide a toplevel for it. I also think it is a good idea to go ahead an populate it with the most frequently used apps and provide a little pop-up or ballon help that explains it has a default set of apps that the user is free to add to, remove or change.
One other trick or area where KDE3 provides excellent access to apps is by re-assigning the left-mouse-on-desktop to provide a quick menu to your applications. You can do it with either the left, right of middle buttons. I just chose left because I used to the rt-button context menu. Here is a shot for what it is worth:
[54k] http://www.3111skyline.com/dl/dt/trinity/ss/left-click-on-dt.jpg
Lastly, the 'quicklaunch' app is also a fantastic addition to the kicker panel. (see my earlier screenshots) If a default set of apps is put in 'User-Apps' or 'Favourites', then I would also propose providing 'quicklaunch' populated with the same set to expose the user to the functionality and let them choose which they like best.
KDE3 has always had the most efficient desktop interface by far. There has been a great deal of thought put into accomplishing computing tasks with the absolute minimum number of keystrokes or mouse clicks required. Thinking though a logical layout of kmenu is just another opportunity to really set trinity apart from anything else out there. Great work Kate.
On 2011/01/24 13:48 (GMT-0600) David C. Rankin composed:
Office
The top level could just as easily be called 'Document'
Between the two I think the latter plus an "s" makes more sense. Maybe expand to "Documents and Publishing". Home users need documents, but not necessarily office.
Development
For the relative few that do any of it.
Edutainment& Health
Edutainment & Games probably shouldn't be distinguished.
Emulators
I'd put this in System. How many people use more than one? How many even know what an Emulator is?
Games
Graphics (symlinked)
I think graphics stands alone.Lost& Found Multimedia (both audio and video)
I think subdividing media into graphics and multi-media is artificial. On Windows systems I put VLC, Adobe Reader, IrfanView, ITunes and so forth in a "Media" "folder" in "Programs".
Network (I think Network is a subfolder of Settings, and the Toplevel should be 'Internet' or 'Inet')
How about just "Connections"? Or, "Sharing"?
Settings
I like SUSE's "Personal Settings" to distinguish their many from the many system settings.
System
User-Apps
Seems like department of redundancy to me.
Lastly, the 'quicklaunch' app
Similar to Windows quick launch. Certain things everyone needs frequently ought to be there, while the main menu needs as many of either "most recently used" or most frequently used" as fits without exploding the main menu into a second column.
On 01/24/2011 03:15 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
Office
The top level could just as easily be called 'Document'Between the two I think the latter plus an "s" makes more sense. Maybe expand to "Documents and Publishing". Home users need documents, but not necessarily office.
I'm searching, unsuccessfully, for a verb that works here or something more descriptive. Office, Document or Documents are nouns and don't seem to impart the "create this here" paradigm I'm looking for. I think a word that conveys this toplevel holds "The core applications you use everyday" would be best.
Maybe we just called it "Drudgery" or "Salt Mine Apps" ;-)
Seriously, maybe:
Core Applications Documents Apps
I'm still searching
<snip>
Edutainment& Health
Edutainment & Games probably shouldn't be distinguished.
I agree with the distinction here. If there are going to be 2 toplevels, then I like the traditional:
Education Astronomy Chemistry Language Mathematics Teaching ( this seems a bit redundant -- maybe 'Teacher Tools' )
Games (the normal time killers)
I think subdividing media into graphics and multi-media is artificial. On Windows systems I put VLC, Adobe Reader, IrfanView, ITunes and so forth in a "Media" "folder" in "Programs".
It may just me be, but when I think of media on a computer, I think of (the thing). The disk, the floppy, the cd, etc. I agree that 'Multi-Media' is a bastardization of a description of an old 286 with a sound card.
I think of 'Graphics' as the manipulation of Bitmap or Vector formats and it fits well for the apps that do one of the other.
As for multi-media, I have always thought collecting the apps that do 'Audio-Video' together. Including all the burning and ripping and video editing tools. If we embrace the term 'Media' as the toplevel, then I think
Media Audio CD/DVD Tools Graphics Video
has a logical flow.
Network (I think Network is a subfolder of Settings, and the Toplevel should be 'Internet' or 'Inet')
How about just "Connections"? Or, "Sharing"?
I thought about alternatives, but unless you are using minicom or kinternet, just about everything you do or connect to goes across the LAN or WAN as TCP/IP. 'Internet' or 'Internet & Connectivity' just works well for all the apps like konqueror web browsing, Firefox, Opera, Tbird, Kopete and the like.
Connections & Sharing makes me think of SMB, NFS, etc.. which I usually find under 'System/Network'
Settings
I like SUSE's "Personal Settings" to distinguish their many from the many system settings.
System
User-Apps
Seems like department of redundancy to me.
Lastly, the 'quicklaunch' appSimilar to Windows quick launch. Certain things everyone needs frequently ought to be there, while the main menu needs as many of either "most recently used" or most frequently used" as fits without exploding the main menu into a second column.
+1, Thanks Felix :)
On 2011/01/24 15:49 (GMT-0600) David C. Rankin composed:
On 01/24/2011 03:15 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
Office
The top level could just as easily be called 'Document'
Between the two I think the latter plus an "s" makes more sense. Maybe expand to "Documents and Publishing". Home users need documents, but not necessarily office.
I'm searching, unsuccessfully, for a verb that works here or something more descriptive. Office, Document or Documents are nouns and don't seem to impart the "create this here" paradigm I'm looking for. I think a word that conveys this toplevel holds "The core applications you use everyday" would be best.
Try a librarian hat and think about cataloging, file drawers and shelving. Does that help?
I think subdividing media into graphics and multi-media is artificial. On Windows systems I put VLC, Adobe Reader, IrfanView, ITunes and so forth in a "Media" "folder" in "Programs".
It may just me be, but when I think of media on a computer, I think of (the thing). The disk, the floppy, the cd, etc.
Newspapers? Books? Magazines? TV? Movie theater? Redbox? YouTube? Some move, some don't.
Media Audio CD/DVD Tools Graphics Video
has a logical flow.
+1
Network (I think Network is a subfolder of Settings, and the Toplevel should be 'Internet' or 'Inet')
How about just "Connections"? Or, "Sharing"?
I thought about alternatives, but unless you are using minicom or kinternet, just about everything you do or connect to goes across the LAN or WAN as TCP/IP. 'Internet' or 'Internet& Connectivity' just works well for all the apps like konqueror web browsing, Firefox, Opera, Tbird, Kopete and the like.
Connections& Sharing makes me think of SMB, NFS, etc.. which I usually find under 'System/Network'
Isn't most of what's on the web freely shared stuff? To me, Internet is first and foremost information. Moving pictures is what my TV is for, moving pictures big enough to enjoy, or even figure out what's going on. "Internet" in an office setting sounds like a lure to get workers to play more and work less.
How you reach what you're after should take a back seat to what it is you're after. Focus on where and what, not method. Maybe inner net needs to be segregated from outer net, maybe not.
To me, both connections and sharing means stuff that's not on this puter, at least, not as yet. ;-)
On Mon, 2011-01-24 at 15:49 -0600, David C. Rankin wrote: <snip>
I'm searching, unsuccessfully, for a verb that works here or something more descriptive. Office, Document or Documents are nouns and don't seem to impart the "create this here" paradigm I'm looking for. I think a word that conveys this toplevel holds "The core applications you use everyday" would be best.
Maybe we just called it "Drudgery" or "Salt Mine Apps" ;-)
Seriously, maybe:
Core Applications Documents Apps
<snip> Yes, I'm really struggling with a good name for that one, too. I was thinking something like Productivity Apps but that sounds a bit geeky and smacks of Office. Core Applications is probably the best I've heard thus far. Some may argue about what is Core but I think it's a good proposal - John
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 1:04 AM, John A. Sullivan III < jsullivan@opensourcedevel.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2011-01-24 at 15:49 -0600, David C. Rankin wrote:
<snip> > I'm searching, unsuccessfully, for a verb that works here or something more > descriptive. Office, Document or Documents are nouns and don't seem to impart > the "create this here" paradigm I'm looking for. I think a word that conveys > this toplevel holds "The core applications you use everyday" would be best. > > Maybe we just called it "Drudgery" or "Salt Mine Apps" ;-) > > Seriously, maybe: > > Core Applications > Documents Apps > <snip> Yes, I'm really struggling with a good name for that one, too. I was thinking something like Productivity Apps but that sounds a bit geeky and smacks of Office. Core Applications is probably the best I've heard thus far. Some may argue about what is Core but I think it's a good proposal - John
Office IMO is the most descriptive. Still, whatever you name it, the icon that stands before it helps clear any doubt, just put a typewriter there, as it happens currently.
Best regards, Tiago
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On 1/24/11, Tiago Marques tiagomnm@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 1:04 AM, John A. Sullivan III < jsullivan@opensourcedevel.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2011-01-24 at 15:49 -0600, David C. Rankin wrote:
<snip> > I'm searching, unsuccessfully, for a verb that works here or something more > descriptive. Office, Document or Documents are nouns and don't seem to impart > the "create this here" paradigm I'm looking for. I think a word that conveys > this toplevel holds "The core applications you use everyday" would be best. > > Maybe we just called it "Drudgery" or "Salt Mine Apps" ;-) > > Seriously, maybe: > > Core Applications > Documents Apps > <snip> Yes, I'm really struggling with a good name for that one, too. I was thinking something like Productivity Apps but that sounds a bit geeky and smacks of Office. Core Applications is probably the best I've heard thus far. Some may argue about what is Core but I think it's a good proposal - John
Office IMO is the most descriptive. Still, whatever you name it, the icon that stands before it helps clear any doubt, just put a typewriter there, as it happens currently.
Best regards, Tiago
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Perhaps you're right, Office or Office Productivity with DTP as a subdirectory. This one, I think, will be the menu that breaks up.
:(
Kate
On 01/24/2011 08:10 PM, Tiago Marques wrote:
Office IMO is the most descriptive. Still, whatever you name it, the icon that stands before it helps clear any doubt, just put a typewriter there, as it happens currently.
just to show they don't have a good handle on it now, just for GRINS I looked for Evolution ( email client) in MY gnome menus. under Office it says: Evolution Mail and Calendar. Under Internet it says ( drum roll):Evolution Mail.
does the internet evolution NOT do calendar? and just for comparison Icedove(Debian thunderbird) is listed under internet yet Iceowl(Calendar) is listed under Office and Icedove is not listed under office.
On Monday 24 January 2011 14:01:10 Katheryne Draven wrote:
(Office or Desktop Publishing, Tools, Utilities, etc etc)
For those of us of a certain age, Desktop Publishing has a quite specific meaning: A desktop computer that could be used to publish books. It then came to mean software that either did or could do that.
Please don't let's follow the modern trend of mis-using a term, however inadvertently, and thereby ensuring that the accuracy of our vocabulary takes another dive.
I know that I am a dinosaur, but I watch as the richness of the English language is dragged ever downwards by text-happy teenagers, and I could almost weep. :-(
Lisi
On Monday 24 January 2011 14:01:10 Katheryne Draven wrote:
(Office or Desktop Publishing, Tools, Utilities, etc etc)
For those of us of a certain age, Desktop Publishing has a quite specific meaning: A desktop computer that could be used to publish books. It then came to mean software that either did or could do that.
Please don't let's follow the modern trend of mis-using a term, however inadvertently, and thereby ensuring that the accuracy of our vocabulary takes another dive.
I know that I am a dinosaur, but I watch as the richness of the English language is dragged ever downwards by text-happy teenagers, and I could almost weep. :-(
Lisi
I fully agree. Let's try to be as precise as possible within any given context.
Tim
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David C. Rankin -
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Inga Muste -
John A. Sullivan III -
Katheryne Draven -
Lisi -
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Oliver Kullmann -
paul -
Paul Cartwright
-
Tiago Marques -
Timothy Pearson