Just a gentle reminder about bottom-quoting without trimming, which combines all the disadvantages of top-posting with none of the advantages.
The message I replied to included *nine* levels of quoting, approximately 200 lines worth, followed by a single response at the very end. I had to page through six screens to get to the author's comment.
Please everyone, remember to trim your quoting to managable levels, and to use inline posting between paragraphs. (Some people call that "bottom posting" as you respond at the bottom of each paragraph, but that term is more correctly used for adding your own text at the very bottom of the entire quoted message. Which is worse for the reader than top-posting.)
(I've done my best to remove any threading information from this email, as I don't want to point the finger at any specific person.)
On Saturday 16 January 2021 17:25:05 Steven D'Aprano via tde-users wrote:
Just a gentle reminder about bottom-quoting without trimming, which combines all the disadvantages of top-posting with none of the advantages.
The message I replied to included *nine* levels of quoting, approximately 200 lines worth, followed by a single response at the very end. I had to page through six screens to get to the author's comment.
Please everyone, remember to trim your quoting to managable levels, and to use inline posting between paragraphs. (Some people call that "bottom posting" as you respond at the bottom of each paragraph, but that term is more correctly used for adding your own text at the very bottom of the entire quoted message. Which is worse for the reader than top-posting.)
(I've done my best to remove any threading information from this email, as I don't want to point the finger at any specific person.)
This thought has occurred to me before, but anyway, here goes ...
How about we just dispense with top posting altogether? About 5% of those who post here don't bother or don't remember not to top post; probably they are new to the list.
It's annoying to most of the readers of the list, but for their different reasons. Some of us do our best not to top post, then others don't follow the rule and mess it up, anyway. Others bottom post, but don't trim the glut of replies on top of replies that accumulates in some threads, which makes it like an archaeological dig sometimes to find the tiny nuggets that are worth reading.
If we just all went to top posting, because it's normal for most emails, and habit, then we wouldn't worry so much about it. It is no harder to read the replies backwards rather than forwards, since it's usually messy, anyway.
Furthermore, I find that I have started bottom-posting by habit in my *other* [non-TDE mailing list] emails, which throws off some of my non-TDE recipients, who think I have mistakenly hit RESEND or whatever, and sometimes don't scroll down to find what I have written.
All this could be eliminated if we just top-posted. Then the rule (observed or not) could be: Please trim the extra stuff that has accumulated at the bottom. But if they forget, most readers won't be bothered much, as they won't get that far.
Bill
On 2021/01/17 12:28 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
How about we just dispense with top posting altogether?
I was about to ask the same question. What are the advantages of bottom posting? I can't fiugre them out to be honest. I use top posting daily everywhere other than TDE and I always find annoying having to scroll down to read a post in TDE. If there is a clear benefit for bottom posting, I will understand. But currently I am struggling to see the point of it.
Cheers Michele
On Saturday 16 January 2021 20:00:56 Michele Calgaro via tde-users wrote:
On 2021/01/17 12:28 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
How about we just dispense with top posting altogether?
I was about to ask the same question. What are the advantages of bottom posting? I can't fiugre them out to be honest. I use top posting daily everywhere other than TDE and I always find annoying having to scroll down to read a post in TDE. If there is a clear benefit for bottom posting, I will understand. But currently I am struggling to see the point of it.
Cheers Michele
Great minds think alike, they say.
;-)
Bill
On 1/16/21 8:00 PM, Michele Calgaro via tde-users wrote:
What are the advantages of bottom posting? I can't fiugre them out to be honest.
The advantage is, you can trim all but the relevant line or two to which you're replying, and do that with multiple sentences/paragraphs if necessary, replying to each right along with the text to which you're replying, and have a nice neat post that's easy for anyyone to read and follow. It even works well when it's helpful to include a couple layers of quotes for continuity, as long as you trim what's not relevant.
Of course, it doesn't work when people don't bother to trim anything, and just add their 1 or 2 lines at the bottom of dozens and dozens of lines with 8 layers of completely irrelevant quotes, which makes it very difficult to read.
On Saturday 16 January 2021 21:04:32 Dan Youngquist via tde-users wrote:
On 1/16/21 8:00 PM, Michele Calgaro via tde-users wrote:
What are the advantages of bottom posting? I can't fiugre them out to be honest.
The advantage is, you can trim all but the relevant line or two to which you're replying, and do that with multiple sentences/paragraphs if necessary, replying to each right along with the text to which you're replying, and have a nice neat post that's easy for anyyone to read and follow. It even works well when it's helpful to include a couple layers of quotes for continuity, as long as you trim what's not relevant.
Of course, it doesn't work when people don't bother to trim anything, and just add their 1 or 2 lines at the bottom of dozens and dozens of lines with 8 layers of completely irrelevant quotes, which makes it very difficult to read.
This puts us all in the position of trying to *reform* others, to break them of their bad habits, rather than accepting the reality that people will continue to behave the same way again and again and again and again and again and again.
Why not try to work on getting me to exercise more, while you are at it, or to stick to a healthier diet, or to stop smoking? Those are far more worthy goals, in my opinion, and might actually succeed, as I do really want to improve myself.
Bill
William Morder composed on 2021-01-16 21:23 (UTC-0800):
Why not try to work on getting me to exercise more, while you are at it, or to stick to a healthier diet, or to stop smoking? Those are far more worthy goals, in my opinion, and might actually succeed, as I do really want to improve myself.
I for one will continue to apply the golden rule.
On Saturday 16 January 2021 21:47:15 Felix Miata wrote:
William Morder composed on 2021-01-16 21:23 (UTC-0800):
Why not try to work on getting me to exercise more, while you are at it, or to stick to a healthier diet, or to stop smoking? Those are far more worthy goals, in my opinion, and might actually succeed, as I do really want to improve myself.
I for one will continue to apply the golden rule.
I don't disagree with you, Felix. The TDE mailing list has used this same rule ever since TDE got started.
With respect, however, this one thing is the single biggest cause for complaints among us all, and causes us to keep going round in these same ruts ... again and again and again ... round and round ...
Yes, no top-posting *does* make logical sense, for flow of reading; no disagreements there. And in some ideal nerdist paradise, this is the way things *ought* to be. But in reality, about half of us never trim, or only seldom, while others top-post out of habit.
So because of this one rule, no top-posting, we are put in the position of trying to reform others of their bad habits. But -- I am just guessing -- the main reasons that many of us do not trim the layers of posts are: 1) respect for the other person's views 2) one gets rather too enthusiastic, and wants to respond right NOW, and hits send a few seconds too soon.
(We ought to remind ourselves, by the way, that every one of us are much less interesting to other people than we are to ourselves.)
Now, if we would just top-post, like other emails in general, the dynamics are changed. It will be difficult to read backwards sometimes, but half of the offending posts are those layers upon layers of conversation which we are asked to trim. And the few lines of response are right at the top; no need to scroll through six screens to get to the punchline. And then, every so often somebody or other will come along and clean it up, trim off the layers that other people left neglected and untidy. Top-posting would just be SO much easier for everybody.
Anyway, I will follow the group consensus, and try to abide by the rules and respect others. I just believe that we waste a lot of time complaining about what is readily fixed by changing this one thing.
Bill
On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 09:23:34PM -0800, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
This puts us all in the position of trying to *reform* others, to break them of their bad habits, rather than accepting the reality that people will continue to behave the same way again and again and again and again and again and again.
Why not try to work on getting me to exercise more, while you are at it, or to stick to a healthier diet, or to stop smoking? Those are far more worthy goals, in my opinion, and might actually succeed, as I do really want to improve myself.
It's no skin off my nose whether you weigh the same as a full-grown male hippo, smoke thirty packs of cigarettes and drink a case of vodka every day.
(If I were a tax payer in your country, and your country had full health care, then *maybe* I would care about saving the buck or two that was my share of your medical costs. But probably not. Kindness is cheap when the cost is spread out widely enough.)
But if (generic) you post badly formatted text, I have to deal with it. I have to read it, or decide that I can't be bothered reading it, and delete it. Before I even read it, I have to download it, and while data costs and storage costs are cheap, they are't *zero*.
And because I'm a big softy, I don't want to create a filter to just dump (generic) your posts into the trash.
The bottom line is that what each of us does in our private lives is our own business, but posting to a mailing list is a *community* activity and affects us all.
Especially those using KMail, that makes it so easy to trim quoting. Select the text you want gone and press delete. It's not giving up smoking. (My wife went into a *two year* panic attack from quitting cold turkey.)
No, I'm not going to call the (imaginary) Internet Cops onto (generic) you, but if a little bit of respectful community pressure can't get you to change your ways, and press the delete key a couple of times to trim your quoting, well, that's sort of telling us how little (generic) you value our time :-(
And just remember: this is a technical forum. Some of the people here are techies, or halfling-techies, with all the arrogance and condescension that entails. Do you really want to post like an ignorant civilian here?
On Saturday 16 January 2021 23:15:22 Steven D'Aprano via tde-users wrote:
On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 09:23:34PM -0800, William Morder via tde-users
wrote: I don't actually smoke; at least, not cigarettes, and not much of anything else. Too much coffee, there is my vice. My medical expenses are nil. So, no worries for you there.
Yes, I have known enough technies and nerdists in my life, and they answer all their emails like they are still in the mailing list; responses inline through the paragraphs.
;-) I get it, I do.
Your argument really comes down to "but this is the way we have always done it"; which, as I said, puts us all in the position of having to police one another. I would like to choose Door #3, please. There must be a better way.
Anyway, I have said my piece, and will follow the consensus. I struggle to see the advantages of the no top-posting rule, but I would not want anybody to think that I am not a total geek.
Myself, I geek in order to live. I don't live in order to geek. It isn't natural for me.
Bill
On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 09:04:32PM -0800, Dan Youngquist via tde-users wrote:
On 1/16/21 8:00 PM, Michele Calgaro via tde-users wrote:
What are the advantages of bottom posting? I can't fiugre them out to be honest.
The advantage is, you can trim all but the relevant line or two to which you're replying, and do that with multiple sentences/paragraphs if necessary, replying to each right along with the text to which you're replying, and have a nice neat post that's easy for anyyone to read and follow. It even works well when it's helpful to include a couple layers of quotes for continuity, as long as you trim what's not relevant.
That's not bottom posting.
You're not posting your content at the *bottom* of the untrimmed, fully quoted message you replied to. You're posting your content interleaved between quoted text, like a good netizen.
-- Top posting --
My reply. > Third post in full. > > Second post in full. > > > First post in full.
-- Bottom posting --
> > > First post in full. > > Second post in full. > Third post in full. My reply.
-- Inline posting --
> Relevent parts of third post. My reply.
> > Just enough quoting to establish context. > Additional relevant parts of third post. My reply.
Harder to describe than to do, unless you have a really awful mail client like GMail or Outlook.
Of course, it doesn't work when people don't bother to trim anything, and just add their 1 or 2 lines at the bottom of dozens and dozens of lines with 8 layers of completely irrelevant quotes, which makes it very difficult to read.
And *that* horror is bottom-posting.
On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 01:00:56PM +0900, Michele Calgaro via tde-users wrote:
On 2021/01/17 12:28 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
How about we just dispense with top posting altogether?
Whoa there, let's not toss out the bathwater with the baby! *wink*
I was about to ask the same question. What are the advantages of bottom posting? I can't fiugre them out to be honest.
**Bottom** posting? Probably none, or very little, unless the email you are replying to is very short (a handful of lines, no more).
But **inline** posting, which is often wrongly called bottom posting, has the advantages of:
- reading like the conversation it is;
- and keeping the necessary context in place.
Especially in technical discussions, it is natural and useful to follow a Question: Answer format.
> How do I do this?
Answer...
> > > Previous question > > First response > Okay, thanks, here's a follow-up question...
And the follow-up answer goes here.
So much better than either top-posting or bottom-posting, that invariably ends up with half the questions ignored.
I use top posting daily everywhere other than TDE and I always find annoying having to scroll down to read a post in TDE.
If my readers have to scroll to read my first (or only comment), then the chances are that I have left too much quoting in place.
If they have to scroll long enough that they get bored, frustrated or annoyed, then I definitely have left too much quoting.
And if I have left ten pages of quoting only to respond with a single line "Me too!!!" then I need somebody to turn my computer off and never let me online again *wink*
(You know how many TV shows start off with a very, very brief summary of "the story so far" showing highlights of previous episodes? Imagine if, instead, you had 42 minutes recapping the previous episodes followed by three minutes of new material.)
Quoting should ideally be just enough to establish context, not to be a full archive of the complete thread to that point.
If there is a clear benefit for bottom posting, I will understand. But currently I am struggling to see the point of it.
And this is why I keep asking people to not post at the bottom of the untrimmed post. That combines the disadvantages of top-posting with extra disadvantages and no advantages for the reader at all.
On 2021-01-17 00:37:31 Steven D'Aprano via tde-users wrote:
On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 01:00:56PM +0900, Michele Calgaro via tde-users
wrote:
On 2021/01/17 12:28 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
How about we just dispense with top posting altogether?
Whoa there, let's not toss out the bathwater with the baby! *wink*
I was about to ask the same question. What are the advantages of bottom posting? I can't fiugre them out to be honest.
**Bottom** posting? Probably none, or very little, unless the email you are replying to is very short (a handful of lines, no more).
But **inline** posting, which is often wrongly called bottom posting, has the advantages of:
reading like the conversation it is;
and keeping the necessary context in place.
Especially in technical discussions, it is natural and useful to follow a Question: Answer format.
> How do I do this? Answer... > > > Previous question > > > > First response > > Okay, thanks, here's a follow-up question... And the follow-up answer goes here.So much better than either top-posting or bottom-posting, that invariably ends up with half the questions ignored.
I use top posting daily everywhere other than TDE and I always find annoying having to scroll down to read a post in TDE.
If my readers have to scroll to read my first (or only comment), then the chances are that I have left too much quoting in place.
If they have to scroll long enough that they get bored, frustrated or annoyed, then I definitely have left too much quoting.
And if I have left ten pages of quoting only to respond with a single line "Me too!!!" then I need somebody to turn my computer off and never let me online again *wink*
(You know how many TV shows start off with a very, very brief summary of "the story so far" showing highlights of previous episodes? Imagine if, instead, you had 42 minutes recapping the previous episodes followed by three minutes of new material.)
Quoting should ideally be just enough to establish context, not to be a full archive of the complete thread to that point.
If there is a clear benefit for bottom posting, I will understand. But currently I am struggling to see the point of it.
And this is why I keep asking people to not post at the bottom of the untrimmed post. That combines the disadvantages of top-posting with extra disadvantages and no advantages for the reader at all.
I agree.
Leslie --
On 2021-01-16 22:00:56 Michele Calgaro via tde-users wrote:
On 2021/01/17 12:28 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
How about we just dispense with top posting altogether?
I was about to ask the same question. What are the advantages of bottom posting? I can't fiugre them out to be honest. I use top posting daily everywhere other than TDE and I always find annoying having to scroll down to read a post in TDE. If there is a clear benefit for bottom posting, I will understand. But currently I am struggling to see the point of it.
Cheers Michele
If one is using kmail, one can create a custom template for the TDE mailing lists so that all posts going there default to bottom-posting.
| Configure KMail => Settings => Composer => Custom Templates
In the text widget beside the green +, type "TDE Lists; click on the +; change Template type (at bottom right) to Reply; type the following in the right side pane:
| %REM="Reply to TDE Lists template"%- | On %ODATEEN %OTIMELONGEN %OFROMNAME wrote: | %QUOTE | %CURSOR | | <Your Name> | --
Replace trailing EN if desired with a different language code, and <Your Name> as appropriate.
Leslie --
On Saturday 16 January 2021 22:41:27 J Leslie Turriff wrote:
On 2021-01-16 22:00:56 Michele Calgaro via tde-users wrote:
On 2021/01/17 12:28 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
How about we just dispense with top posting altogether?
I was about to ask the same question. What are the advantages of bottom posting? I can't fiugre them out to be honest. I use top posting daily everywhere other than TDE and I always find annoying having to scroll down to read a post in TDE. If there is a clear benefit for bottom posting, I will understand. But currently I am struggling to see the point of it.
Cheers Michele
If one is using kmail, one can create a custom template for the TDE mailing lists so that all posts going there default to bottom-posting.
| Configure KMail => Settings => Composer => Custom Templates
In the text widget beside the green +, type "TDE Lists; click on the +; change Template type (at bottom right) to Reply; type the following in the
right side pane: | %REM="Reply to TDE Lists template"%- | On %ODATEEN %OTIMELONGEN %OFROMNAME wrote: | %QUOTE | %CURSOR | | <Your Name> | --
Replace trailing EN if desired with a different language code, and <Your Name> as appropriate.
Leslie
Thanks, I will give this a try myself. I already use templates for most emails.
Bill
On 2021-01-17 00:57:19 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Saturday 16 January 2021 22:41:27 J Leslie Turriff wrote:
On 2021-01-16 22:00:56 Michele Calgaro via tde-users wrote:
On 2021/01/17 12:28 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
How about we just dispense with top posting altogether?
I was about to ask the same question. What are the advantages of bottom posting? I can't fiugre them out to be honest. I use top posting daily everywhere other than TDE and I always find annoying having to scroll down to read a post in TDE. If there is a clear benefit for bottom posting, I will understand. But currently I am struggling to see the point of it.
Cheers Michele
If one is using kmail, one can create a custom template for the TDE mailing lists so that all posts going there default to bottom-posting.
| Configure KMail => Settings => Composer => Custom Templates
In the text widget beside the green +, type "TDE Lists; click on the +; change Template type (at bottom right) to Reply; type the following in the
right side pane: | %REM="Reply to TDE Lists template"%- | On %ODATEEN %OTIMELONGEN %OFROMNAME wrote: | %QUOTE | %CURSOR | | <Your Name> | --
Replace trailing EN if desired with a different language code, and <Your Name> as appropriate.
Leslie
Thanks, I will give this a try myself. I already use templates for most emails.
Bill
Please see my correction post; this sets up a global template, not one for a folder.
Leslie --
-
Dan Youngquist -
Felix Miata -
J Leslie Turriff -
Michele Calgaro -
Steven D'Aprano -
William Morder