I am back, and I am wanting to give TDE another shot.
But this time, I am coming to you from Fedora 35!
I see there's a way to install TDE in Fedora 35
So what I will prob do is a Fedora XFCE spin install
And then do...
Install the minimalistic Trinity Desktop Environment:
dnf install trinity-tdebase
And then all of the programs that I use on a daily basis, install as flatpaks to where I can use some newer, up to date apps.
And of course make THUNAR my file manager... Konq is just bleh....
Does all of this sound ok? Or is there anything that you would tweak?
Thanks, Chris
c. marlow composed on 2022-01-31 15:44 (UTC-0600):
I see there's a way to install TDE in Fedora 35
So what I will prob do is a Fedora XFCE spin install
Why bother? Just do a minimal no frills basic installation with Xorg & IceWM.
And then do...
Install the minimalistic Trinity Desktop Environment:
dnf install trinity-tdebase
And then all of the programs that I use on a daily basis, install as flatpaks to where I can use some newer, up to date apps.
Not me. I've not tried to install anyone's flatpak yet, no need.
And of course make THUNAR my file manager... Konq is just bleh....
Does all of this sound ok? Or is there anything that you would tweak?
OFMs MC & FCL are the only file managers I use. MC doesn't even need X running, yet has its own menu entry in Konsole, which I very much would not like to have to do without.
On Monday 31 January 2022 03:44:21 pm c. marlow wrote:
I am back, and I am wanting to give TDE another shot. But this time, I am coming to you from Fedora 35!
You sound like me, constantly swapping around like me with FreeBSD and Devuan :-)
And of course make THUNAR my file manager... Konq is just bleh....
What's wrong with Konqueror?
Does all of this sound ok? Or is there anything that you would tweak?
This sounds OK, though I don't understand why to install Xfce besides for Thunar.
On 2022-02-01 17:05:13 Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 31 January 2022 03:44:21 pm c. marlow wrote:
I am back, and I am wanting to give TDE another shot. But this time, I am coming to you from Fedora 35!
You sound like me, constantly swapping around like me with FreeBSD and Devuan :-)
And of course make THUNAR my file manager... Konq is just bleh....
What's wrong with Konqueror?
I may be wrong, but I thought that Konq and Konqueror were two different programs?
Leslie --
On Tue, 01 Feb 2022 17:05:13 -0600 Hunter Ellett via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
You sound like me, constantly swapping around like me with FreeBSD and Devuan :-)
:) :P
What's wrong with Konqueror?
Old, dated, can't do some of the things I need it to do.
This sounds OK, though I don't understand why to install Xfce besides for Thunar.
Base Installation.
c. marlow wrote:
What's wrong with Konqueror?
Old, dated, can't do some of the things I need it to do.
I would be surprised if someone would be using Konqueror as an internet browser. the KHTML engine is outdated and it would be hard to update or replace it. You can use traditional browser firefox or chrome or whatever.
As filemanager it is very useful. Folks are trying to keep it in best shape.
BR
On Wed, 02 Feb 2022 12:43:42 +0100 deloptes emanoil.kotsev@deloptes.org wrote:
I would be surprised if someone would be using Konqueror as an internet browser. the KHTML engine is outdated and it would be hard to update or replace it. You can use traditional browser firefox or chrome or whatever.
As filemanager it is very useful. Folks are trying to keep it in best shape.
BR
I was talking about using Konquror as a file manager it doesn't do some things that I need it to do.
I use FF as my daily driver browser wise.
Chris
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 13.17:46 c. marlow wrote:
I was talking about using Konquror as a file manager it doesn't do some things that I need it to do.
Hi Chris,
What are these things? This is an earnest question (I mean no troll...), as I had the feeling that any file manager I've tried (I must admit I did not give Thunar a very complete test) could always do only less than I could do with Konqueror - so I really am interested to learn :)
Thierry
On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 13:44:22 +0100 Thierry de Coulon tcoulon@decoulon.ch wrote:
What are these things? This is an earnest question (I mean no troll...), as I had the feeling that any file manager I've tried (I must admit I did not give Thunar a very complete test) could always do only less than I could do with Konqueror - so I really am interested to learn :)
Like compressing folders for instance.. I didn't find any possible way to do that using Konqueror.
I zip / compress my files using Thunar in Gnome and then back them up to my nextcloud account.
Chris
Anno domini 2022 Wed, 2 Feb 07:11:24 -0600 c. marlow scripsit:
On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 13:44:22 +0100 Thierry de Coulon tcoulon@decoulon.ch wrote:
What are these things? This is an earnest question (I mean no troll...), as I had the feeling that any file manager I've tried (I must admit I did not give Thunar a very complete test) could always do only less than I could do with Konqueror - so I really am interested to learn :)
Like compressing folders for instance.. I didn't find any possible way to do that using Konqueror.
Aehm, press right mouse button on the folder symbol, select "compress" in popup, select what methode you wanna use and if it should be password pritected (zip)?
Nik
I zip / compress my files using Thunar in Gnome and then back them up to my nextcloud account.
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On Wednesday 02 February 2022 05:11:24 c. marlow wrote:
On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 13:44:22 +0100
Thierry de Coulon tcoulon@decoulon.ch wrote:
What are these things? This is an earnest question (I mean no troll...), as I had the feeling that any file manager I've tried (I must admit I did not give Thunar a very complete test) could always do only less than I could do with Konqueror - so I really am interested to learn :)
Like compressing folders for instance.. I didn't find any possible way to do that using Konqueror.
I zip / compress my files using Thunar in Gnome and then back them up to my nextcloud account.
Chris
1. right-click on a file or folder 2. look for "compress" in the menu 3. compress as zip (or other archive type - see sub-menu
Bill
On February 2, 2022 7:11:24 AM CST, "c. marlow" TDE@CWM030.com wrote:
Like compressing folders for instance.. I didn't find any possible way to do that using Konqueror.
Chris, others have answered but you must have Trinity's Ark installed. Then you can right click to compress.
On 2022-02-02 08:36:56 Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On February 2, 2022 7:11:24 AM CST, "c. marlow" TDE@CWM030.com wrote:
Like compressing folders for instance.. I didn't find any possible way to do that using Konqueror.
Chris, others have answered but you must have Trinity's Ark installed. Then you can right click to compress.
Interestingly, I have the complete TDE suite installed (including Ark), but Compress does not appear on the context popup in Konqueror. (See attached screenshots.)
Leslie --
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 07:43:57 pm J Leslie Turriff wrote:
On 2022-02-02 08:36:56 Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On February 2, 2022 7:11:24 AM CST, "c. marlow" TDE@CWM030.com wrote:
Like compressing folders for instance.. I didn't find any possible way to do that using Konqueror.
Chris, others have answered but you must have Trinity's Ark installed. Then you can right click to compress.
Interestingly, I have the complete TDE suite installed (including Ark), but Compress does not appear on the context popup in Konqueror. (See attached screenshots.)
Leslie
Make sure you have the plugins installed. I don't know what they would be called in your distro.
Kate
Ex: trinity-konqueror trinity-konq-plugins* trinity-ark trinity-libkonq
*plugins for Konqueror, the Trinity file/web/doc browser This package contains a variety of useful plugins for Konqueror, the file manager, web browser and document viewer for TDE. Many of these plugins will appear in Konqueror's Tools menu.
Highlights for web browsing include web page translation, web page archiving, auto-refreshing, HTML and CSS structural analysis, a search toolbar, a sidebar news ticker, fast access to common options, bookmarklets, a crash monitor, a microformat availability indicator, a del.icio.us bookmarks sidebar, and integration with the aKregator RSS feed reader.
Highlights for directory browsing include directory filters, image gallery creation, archive compression and extraction, quick copy/move, a sidebar media player, a file information metabar/sidebar, a media folder helper, a graphical disk usage viewer and image conversions and transformations.
On 2022-02-02 19:29:34 Borg Labs wrote:
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 07:43:57 pm J Leslie Turriff wrote:
On 2022-02-02 08:36:56 Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On February 2, 2022 7:11:24 AM CST, "c. marlow" TDE@CWM030.com wrote:
Like compressing folders for instance.. I didn't find any possible way to do that using Konqueror.
Chris, others have answered but you must have Trinity's Ark installed. Then you can right click to compress.
Interestingly, I have the complete TDE suite installed (including Ark), but Compress does not appear on the context popup in Konqueror. (See attached screenshots.)
Leslie
Make sure you have the plugins installed. I don't know what they would be called in your distro.
Kate
Ex: trinity-konqueror trinity-konq-plugins* trinity-ark trinity-libkonq
*plugins for Konqueror, the Trinity file/web/doc browser This package contains a variety of useful plugins for Konqueror, the file manager, web browser and document viewer for TDE. Many of these plugins will appear in Konqueror's Tools menu.
Highlights for web browsing include web page translation, web page archiving, auto-refreshing, HTML and CSS structural analysis, a search toolbar, a sidebar news ticker, fast access to common options, bookmarklets, a crash monitor, a microformat availability indicator, a del.icio.us bookmarks sidebar, and integration with the aKregator RSS feed reader.
Highlights for directory browsing include directory filters, image gallery creation, archive compression and extraction, quick copy/move, a sidebar media player, a file information metabar/sidebar, a media folder helper, a graphical disk usage viewer and image conversions and transformations.
Looks to me like they're all installed, but Konqueror doesn't seem to see them (see attached).
Leslie -- Platform: Linux Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.3 x86_64 Desktop Environment: Trinity Qt: 3.5.0 TDE: R14.0.11 tde-config: 1.0
On Thursday 03 February 2022 01:04:11 am you wrote:
On 2022-02-02 19:29:34 Borg Labs wrote:
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 07:43:57 pm J Leslie Turriff wrote:
On 2022-02-02 08:36:56 Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On February 2, 2022 7:11:24 AM CST, "c. marlow" TDE@CWM030.com
wrote:
Like compressing folders for instance.. I didn't find any possible way to do that using Konqueror.
Chris, others have answered but you must have Trinity's Ark installed. Then you can right click to compress.
Interestingly, I have the complete TDE suite installed (including Ark), but Compress does not appear on the context popup in Konqueror. (See attached screenshots.)
Leslie
Make sure you have the plugins installed. I don't know what they would be called in your distro.
Kate
Ex: trinity-konqueror trinity-konq-plugins* trinity-ark trinity-libkonq
*plugins for Konqueror, the Trinity file/web/doc browser This package contains a variety of useful plugins for Konqueror, the file manager, web browser and document viewer for TDE. Many of these plugins will appear in Konqueror's Tools menu.
Highlights for web browsing include web page translation, web page archiving, auto-refreshing, HTML and CSS structural analysis, a search toolbar, a sidebar news ticker, fast access to common options, bookmarklets, a crash monitor, a microformat availability indicator, a del.icio.us bookmarks sidebar, and integration with the aKregator RSS feed reader.
Highlights for directory browsing include directory filters, image gallery creation, archive compression and extraction, quick copy/move, a sidebar media player, a file information metabar/sidebar, a media folder helper, a graphical disk usage viewer and image conversions and transformations.
Looks to me like they're all installed, but Konqueror doesn't seem to see them (see attached).
Leslie
Platform: Linux Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.3 x86_64 Desktop Environment: Trinity Qt: 3.5.0 TDE: R14.0.11 tde-config: 1.0
Ok those are browser plugins in your screenshot. Not related to konq's right click menu.
Open konq, right click on a directory and take a screen shot of it so I can see what you're looking at.
Should like something like this (see attached). Mind you, my right click menu is heavily modified.
Kate
Anno domini 2022 Thu, 3 Feb 00:04:11 -0600 J Leslie Turriff scripsit:
On 2022-02-02 19:29:34 Borg Labs wrote:
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 07:43:57 pm J Leslie Turriff wrote:
On 2022-02-02 08:36:56 Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On February 2, 2022 7:11:24 AM CST, "c. marlow" TDE@CWM030.com wrote:
Like compressing folders for instance.. I didn't find any possible way to do that using Konqueror.
Chris, others have answered but you must have Trinity's Ark installed. Then you can right click to compress.
Interestingly, I have the complete TDE suite installed (including Ark), but Compress does not appear on the context popup in Konqueror. (See attached screenshots.)
Leslie
Make sure you have the plugins installed. I don't know what they would be called in your distro.
Kate
Ex: trinity-konqueror trinity-konq-plugins* trinity-ark trinity-libkonq
*plugins for Konqueror, the Trinity file/web/doc browser This package contains a variety of useful plugins for Konqueror, the file manager, web browser and document viewer for TDE. Many of these plugins will appear in Konqueror's Tools menu.
Highlights for web browsing include web page translation, web page archiving, auto-refreshing, HTML and CSS structural analysis, a search toolbar, a sidebar news ticker, fast access to common options, bookmarklets, a crash monitor, a microformat availability indicator, a del.icio.us bookmarks sidebar, and integration with the aKregator RSS feed reader.
Highlights for directory browsing include directory filters, image gallery creation, archive compression and extraction, quick copy/move, a sidebar media player, a file information metabar/sidebar, a media folder helper, a graphical disk usage viewer and image conversions and transformations.
Looks to me like they're all installed, but Konqueror doesn't seem to see them (see attached).
I don't see konq-plugins-trinity. Can you check if /opt/trinity/lib/trinity/libarkplugin.so is present?
Nik
Leslie
Platform: Linux Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.3 x86_64 Desktop Environment: Trinity Qt: 3.5.0 TDE: R14.0.11 tde-config: 1.0
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On Thursday 03 February 2022 00:19:16 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
J Leslie Turriff scripsit:
Interestingly, I have the complete TDE suite installed (including Ark), but Compress does not appear on the context popup in Konqueror. (See attached screenshots.)
Leslie
Just noticed this comment, so my apologies for the late response.
I also had the "compress" option disappear from the menu, but then it was restored when I upgraded to Devuan Chimaera (= Debian Bullseye). I wondered where it went, and once I even complained about the "move to" and "copy to" features having also disappeared. But I got no response, so I thought maybe it was just a choice of developers, due to security concerns or instability or whatnot.
Now it makes me wonder if there might be some other cause: for example, I tend to use the main repositories early in the development cycle, then gradually move up to PSBs and usually move on to PTBs repos when it gets later in the cycle. (Somewhere I read, concerning TDE, that the PSB and PTB were better as it got near the time for upgrading to the new stable releases.)
Thus it occurs to me that maybe this is due to some glitch in that process? I generally just upgrade existing packages, and as for new versions of old packages, I am an habitual packrat, and keep EVERYTHING, just in case I need to reinstall without access to internet.
Unless a package has become obsolete, it ought to get installed, regardless, because I generally use dpkg to install from folders of saved packages. When I reinstall by downloading packages, I keep lists of what to download, and in what order (e.g., firewall + deps, text editors +, browsers +, keyrings, etc.); I try hard to keep my system the same, because when it comes to machines, I don't like new experiences.
The question is, then, Why would those features disappear, then reappear, if I always follow the same routines in installation, and always install plugins for Konqueror, and so on?
Sorry for the in-depth analysis of what might be a minor glitch, or a mistake on my part. However, as my own experience (of losing the features of "compress", "move to" and "copy to" sound similar to Leslie's description, and moreover, were part of the original question that started this part of the thread, maybe it is relevant, after all.
Please feel free to trim, or to start a new thread, if appropriate.
Bill
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
The question is, then, Why would those features disappear, then reappear, if I always follow the same routines in installation, and always install plugins for Konqueror, and so on?
These are dynamic in tdeaddons/konq-plugins/arkplugin/arkplugin.cpp it checks if executable exists that can handle the mime/type and adds it to the available types, which in turn is what you see. Also it seems there is a boolean config option to use or not to use one or the other, but I do not know where this is stored if it is stored at all.
bool havegz = false; if ( !TDEStandardDirs::findExe( "gzip" ).isNull() && m_conf->readBoolEntry( "UseGz", true ) ) { havegz = true; //.gz can only compress one file, not multiple if ( itemCount == 1 ) m_archiveMimeTypes << "application/x-gzip"; }
bool havebz2 = false; if ( !TDEStandardDirs::findExe( "bzip2" ).isNull() && m_conf->readBoolEntry( "UseBzip2", true ) ) { havebz2 = true; //.bz2 can only compress one file, not multiple if ( itemCount == 1 ) m_archiveMimeTypes << "application/x-bzip2"; }
bool havelzop = false; if ( !TDEStandardDirs::findExe( "lzop" ).isNull() && m_conf->readBoolEntry( "UseLzop", false ) ) { havelzop = true; m_archiveMimeTypes << "application/x-lzop"; }
bool havelzma = false; if ( !TDEStandardDirs::findExe( "lzma" ).isNull() && m_conf->readBoolEntry( "UseLzma", false ) ) { havelzma = true; m_archiveMimeTypes << "application/x-lzma"; }
On 2022-02-04 01:49:57 deloptes wrote:
William Morder via tde-users wrote:
The question is, then, Why would those features disappear, then reappear, if I always follow the same routines in installation, and always install plugins for Konqueror, and so on?
These are dynamic in tdeaddons/konq-plugins/arkplugin/arkplugin.cpp it checks if executable exists that can handle the mime/type and adds it to the available types, which in turn is what you see. Also it seems there is a boolean config option to use or not to use one or the other, but I do not know where this is stored if it is stored at all.
This is getting more and more strange. Checking on the package contents, I see |~ |● rpm -q trinity-konq-plugins --filesbypkg|grep ark |trinity-konq-plugins /opt/trinity/lib64/trinity/libarkplugin.la |trinity-konq-plugins /opt/trinity/lib64/trinity/libarkplugin.so |trinity-konq-plugins /opt/trinity/share/applnk/.hidden/arkplugin.desktop |trinity-konq-plugins /opt/trinity/share/services/ark_plugin.desktop |@21:07:41,root@pinto rc=0
Leslie --
J Leslie Turriff wrote:
This is getting more and more strange. Checking on the package contents, I see |~ |● rpm -q trinity-konq-plugins --filesbypkg|grep ark |trinity-konq-plugins /opt/trinity/lib64/trinity/libarkplugin.la |trinity-konq-plugins /opt/trinity/lib64/trinity/libarkplugin.so |trinity-konq-plugins |/opt/trinity/share/applnk/.hidden/arkplugin.desktop trinity-konq-plugins | /opt/trinity/share/services/ark_plugin.desktop @21:07:41,root@pinto |rc=0
the code piece I posted indicates it is looking for a binary executable not a library. Most likely it is using the executable within a TQProcess
Anno domini 2022 Sat, 05 Feb 11:43:56 +0100 deloptes scripsit:
J Leslie Turriff wrote:
This is getting more and more strange. Checking on the package contents, I see |~ |● rpm -q trinity-konq-plugins --filesbypkg|grep ark |trinity-konq-plugins /opt/trinity/lib64/trinity/libarkplugin.la |trinity-konq-plugins /opt/trinity/lib64/trinity/libarkplugin.so |trinity-konq-plugins |/opt/trinity/share/applnk/.hidden/arkplugin.desktop trinity-konq-plugins | /opt/trinity/share/services/ark_plugin.desktop @21:07:41,root@pinto |rc=0
the code piece I posted indicates it is looking for a binary executable not a library. Most likely it is using the executable within a TQProcess
Here it definitly uses the ark plugin.
Test1: Press RMB when konqueror starts
$ konqueror & sleep 5; lsof|grep ark kdesktop 2438 nik mem REG 8,4 89864 8520448 /opt/trinity/lib/trinity/libarkplugin.so kdesktop 2438 2439 kdesktop nik mem REG 8,4 89864 8520448 /opt/trinity/lib/trinity/libarkplugin.so
Test 2, this time press RMB on a folder within 5 secs after conqueror is started:
$ konqueror & sleep 5; lsof|grep ark konqueror 2151 nik mem REG 8,4 89864 8520448 /opt/trinity/lib/trinity/libarkplugin.so kdesktop 2438 nik mem REG 8,4 89864 8520448 /opt/trinity/lib/trinity/libarkplugin.so kdesktop 2438 2439 kdesktop nik mem REG 8,4 89864 8520448 /opt/trinity/lib/trinity/libarkplugin.so
So libarkplugin.so is dynamicly loaded by konqueror (or its subprocesses).
Nik
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Anno domini 2022 Sat, 05 Feb 14:00:22 +0100 deloptes scripsit:
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
So libarkplugin.so is dynamicly loaded by konqueror (or its subprocesses).
Nik
Yes Nik, the plugin is self explaining, but this same plugin needs ark executable to do its job.
Ok, I'm convinced. I just purged "ark-trinity" and the "compress" submenu in konqueror is gone. I reinstalled it and it's there again.
On Devuan "konq-plugins-trinity" recommends "ark-trinity", so no hard dependecy. Is there a good reason for it not be a "depend" ?
Nik
BR ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
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On Saturday 05 February 2022 06:23:52 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2022 Sat, 05 Feb 14:00:22 +0100
deloptes scripsit:
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
So libarkplugin.so is dynamicly loaded by konqueror (or its subprocesses).
Nik
Yes Nik, the plugin is self explaining, but this same plugin needs ark executable to do its job.
Ok, I'm convinced. I just purged "ark-trinity" and the "compress" submenu in konqueror is gone. I reinstalled it and it's there again.
On Devuan "konq-plugins-trinity" recommends "ark-trinity", so no hard dependecy. Is there a good reason for it not be a "depend" ?
Nik
I can confirm this. Just duplicated it myself.
Now for my part, if it's related, is to ask why the "move to" and "copy to" features disappeared from my menu, then reappeared. Maybe something similar, a recommends instead of a hard dependency?
And did this creep into the PSB or PTB repos? Why would that happen?
Bill
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Ok, I'm convinced. I just purged "ark-trinity" and the "compress" submenu in konqueror is gone. I reinstalled it and it's there again.
On Devuan "konq-plugins-trinity" recommends "ark-trinity", so no hard dependecy. Is there a good reason for it not be a "depend" ?
I do not know details to why, but TDE aims to be modular and flexible. For a newbie or an avg user it might be even too much (especially compared to the newer and dumber Gnomes and KDEs approaches)
IMO these problems pop up if you do not install tde-trinity, which usually pulls more then you would need, but makes installation complete incl. all these details.
I personally prefer the flexibility as the desktop can be dedicated to one purpose and can be easily maintained (updated)
BR
On 2022-02-06 02:16:04 deloptes wrote:
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Ok, I'm convinced. I just purged "ark-trinity" and the "compress" submenu in konqueror is gone. I reinstalled it and it's there again.
On Devuan "konq-plugins-trinity" recommends "ark-trinity", so no hard dependecy. Is there a good reason for it not be a "depend" ?
I do not know details to why, but TDE aims to be modular and flexible. For a newbie or an avg user it might be even too much (especially compared to the newer and dumber Gnomes and KDEs approaches)
IMO these problems pop up if you do not install tde-trinity, which usually pulls more then you would need, but makes installation complete incl. all these details.
I personally prefer the flexibility as the desktop can be dedicated to one purpose and can be easily maintained (updated)
BR
This particular case seems to create a high 'astonishment factor' because perhaps the plugin is installed, but not ark itself. An end-user would not necessarily distinguish between these packages. In my case, though, both appear to be installed, as I would expect because I installed via trinity-desktop-all (KonquerorPlugins6.png). Strangely, my package manager shows several packages that are still not installed. (KonquerorPlugins7.png).
Leslie --
J Leslie Turriff wrote:
On 2022-02-06 02:16:04 deloptes wrote:
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Ok, I'm convinced. I just purged "ark-trinity" and the "compress" submenu in konqueror is gone. I reinstalled it and it's there again.
On Devuan "konq-plugins-trinity" recommends "ark-trinity", so no hard dependecy. Is there a good reason for it not be a "depend" ?
I do not know details to why, but TDE aims to be modular and flexible. For a newbie or an avg user it might be even too much (especially compared to the newer and dumber Gnomes and KDEs approaches)
IMO these problems pop up if you do not install tde-trinity, which usually pulls more then you would need, but makes installation complete incl. all these details.
I personally prefer the flexibility as the desktop can be dedicated to one purpose and can be easily maintained (updated)
BR
This particular case seems to create a high 'astonishment factor' because perhaps the plugin is installed, but not ark itself. An end-user would not necessarily distinguish between these packages. In my case, though, both appear to be installed, as I would expect because I installed via trinity-desktop-all (KonquerorPlugins6.png). Strangely, my package manager shows several packages that are still not installed. (KonquerorPlugins7.png).
If you look into detail these seem to be debuginfo and debugsource packages, which are correctly not pulled by default
On 2022-02-07 01:15:24 deloptes wrote:
J Leslie Turriff wrote:
On 2022-02-06 02:16:04 deloptes wrote:
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Ok, I'm convinced. I just purged "ark-trinity" and the "compress" submenu in konqueror is gone. I reinstalled it and it's there again.
On Devuan "konq-plugins-trinity" recommends "ark-trinity", so no hard dependecy. Is there a good reason for it not be a "depend" ?
I do not know details to why, but TDE aims to be modular and flexible. For a newbie or an avg user it might be even too much (especially compared to the newer and dumber Gnomes and KDEs approaches)
IMO these problems pop up if you do not install tde-trinity, which usually pulls more then you would need, but makes installation complete incl. all these details.
I personally prefer the flexibility as the desktop can be dedicated to one purpose and can be easily maintained (updated)
BR
This particular case seems to create a high 'astonishment factor' because perhaps the plugin is installed, but not ark itself. An end-user would not necessarily distinguish between these packages. In my case, though, both appear to be installed, as I would expect because I installed via trinity-desktop-all (KonquerorPlugins6.png). Strangely, my package manager shows several packages that are still not installed. (KonquerorPlugins7.png).
If you look into detail these seem to be debuginfo and debugsource packages, which are correctly not pulled by default
Yes, I believe I mentioned that they are not germaine to the issue being discussed. (YaST allows one to specify that debug packages should be installed with regular packages.) I'm not sure why those particular debug packages didn't get installed.
Leslie --
J Leslie Turriff wrote:
Yes, I believe I mentioned that they are not germaine to the issue being discussed. (YaST allows one to specify that debug packages should be installed with regular packages.) I'm not sure why those particular debug packages didn't get installed.
I am using Debian and here they are optional and are not installed automatically when I install tde-trinity (meta package) that pulls whole trinity desktop. I don't know how YaST works or how you configured it, but it does not make sense to pull those unless you want to debug. I am even not sure if they are build by default or one should change the build options. In Debian the default is without debugging symbols, which usually go into such packages, but it could be a different configuration in your case.
On 2022-02-03 15:39:02 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Now it makes me wonder if there might be some other cause: for example, I tend to use the main repositories early in the development cycle, then gradually move up to PSBs and usually move on to PTBs repos when it gets later in the cycle. (Somewhere I read, concerning TDE, that the PSB and PTB were better as it got near the time for upgrading to the new stable releases.)
Heh. What luxury. There's only one repository for Trinity on OpenSuSE, and as you can see at https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/OpenSUSE_Trinity_Repository_Installation_Ins..., because of the naming convention, there's no going back to earlier levels. (I suppose I should make a backup copy of /opt/trinity before upgrading; I think I will. :-) )
Leslie -- Platform: Linux Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.3 x86_64 Desktop Environment: Trinity Qt: 3.5.0 TDE: R14.0.11 tde-config: 1.0
Well, I am back on Debian 11.2 only because I figured out how to do a minimal install. I tried downloading the " Everything-Fedora-netinstall-amd64.iso and I ran the checker to make sure that the iso wasn't corrupted and it just went right on and loaded the installer, but when it got to the first screen to pick your installation language, it just froze.. You couldn't click on anything. So I downloaded Debian 11.2 and when you get to the screen that says pick what DE you want, I unchecked everything but standard tools, went through with the installation and rebooted and then manually edited /etc/apt/sources.list and added TDE's repo's.
So far everything is working fine. :)
I decided not to install the Kontact flatpak and I am sticking with Claws-Mail since to me, KMAIL in TDE looks ancient. The only thing I liked about TDE's version of KMAIL was the " favorites area" at the top of the screen where I could add folders that I use all the time instead of having to go through the folder tree.
I that see most of ya'll on this mail group but maybe Felix and one other use KMAIL.
Chris
On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 10:39:06 -0600 "c. marlow" tde@CWM030.com wrote:
I that see most of ya'll on this mail group but maybe Felix and one other use KMAIL.
Oops, dang it..
I see THAT most of ya'll on this mail group but maybe Felix and one other use KMAIL.
Chris
On 2022-02-03 02:19:16 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
I don't see konq-plugins-trinity. Can you check if /opt/trinity/lib/trinity/libarkplugin.so is present?
Nik
You're quite right; that library is missing. I took another look at the status of the Trinity packages in YaST (OpenSuSE's software tool), particularly at what isn't installed. None of those packages seem pertinent. (See attached.)
Leslie --
On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 18:43:57 -0600 J Leslie Turriff jlturriff@mail.com wrote:
On 2022-02-02 08:36:56 Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On February 2, 2022 7:11:24 AM CST, "c. marlow" TDE@CWM030.com wrote:
Like compressing folders for instance.. I didn't find any possible way to do that using Konqueror.
Chris, others have answered but you must have Trinity's Ark installed. Then you can right click to compress.
Interestingly, I have the complete TDE suite installed (including Ark), but Compress does not appear on the context popup in Konqueror. (See attached screenshots.)
It's in the separate konq-plugins package (your distro may call it something slighly different, but it's part of tdeaddons). For me, the menu item shows up just above "Copy To".
E. Liddell
On February 2, 2022 8:00:33 PM CST, "E. Liddell" ejlddll@warpmail.net wrote:
On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 18:43:57 -0600 J Leslie Turriff jlturriff@mail.com wrote:
Interestingly, I have the complete TDE suite installed (including Ark), but Compress does not appear on the context popup in Konqueror. (See attached screenshots.)
It's in the separate konq-plugins package (your distro may call it something slighly different, but it's part of tdeaddons). For me, the menu item shows up just above "Copy To".
Yes, my apologies. I forget I always install tdeaddons which brings in Ark and the plugins needed for compression integration in Konqueror.
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 12:43:42 deloptes wrote:
I would be surprised if someone would be using Konqueror as an internet browser. the KHTML engine is outdated and it would be hard to update or replace it. You can use traditional browser firefox or chrome or whatever. As filemanager it is very useful. Folks are trying to keep it in best shape.
Konqueror is an excellent file manager, and not useful as browser.
I'm sorry to learn that Konqueror should be forsaken.
Cheers
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 08:15:19 am ajh-valmer wrote:
I'm sorry to learn that Konqueror should be forsaken.
Me and many others here think Konqueror should not go anywhere. I think the only problem with it as a web browser is KHTML, the actual functionality for both web browsing (KHTML being the bottleneck) & file management is really good. Maybe one day one of us can port it over to WebKit (hopefully not Blink or WebEngine, yuck..)
On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 08:52:46 -0600 Hunter Ellett via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 08:15:19 am ajh-valmer wrote:
I'm sorry to learn that Konqueror should be forsaken.
Me and many others here think Konqueror should not go anywhere. I think the only problem with it as a web browser is KHTML, the actual functionality for both web browsing (KHTML being the bottleneck) & file management is really good. Maybe one day one of us can port it over to WebKit (hopefully not Blink or WebEngine, yuck..)
It also has an obsolete Javascript engine and an uncertain number of security holes (because all non-trivial programs have bugs, and in something as complex and with as large an attack surface as a browser, some of those bugs are going to affect security). Properly maintaining a browser, even if you're using someone else's rendering engine, takes a lot of manpower.
Konqueror is a good file manager, and its HTML-viewing functionality is useful for displaying things like local help files, but I wouldn't consider it a good or safe option for browsing the Web at large.
(Also, the only available options for rendering engines these days are the Corporate family (Webkit, its fork Blink, and QT5's repackage of Blink's core as WebEngine) and the Inconvenient family (Gecko and its fork Goanna). Webkit belongs to Apple, Blink belongs to Google, and Gecko and Goanna aren't really intended to be separated from their existing browsers. Choose your poison.)
E. Liddell
E. Liddell wrote:
It also has an obsolete Javascript engine and an uncertain number of
security holes
I'd argue that since it supports a very limited portion of JavaScript and apparently none of the modern Web APIs like WebRTC, WebAssembly etc., the attack surface is actually smaller. The only disadvantages from a security standpoint would be effective lack of eyes and work on the source (the obvious disadvantage being, of course, a browser stuck in time).
Webkit
Looks like the least evil choice to go for TDE. Upstream versions seem to offer decent rendering and boast good privacy, and it can be integrated deeply with TQt/TDE.
its fork Blink
Bulky, with questionable privacy, dependent on Google's choices but seemingly very secure (sandboxing, process separation). Does not integrate really well with the system (includes its own graphics stack and does not integrate with any toolkit at all).
and QT5's repackage of Blink's core as WebEngine
Probably out-of-date with latest Blink, so not a very safe choice.
Gecko and its fork Goanna
Last I checked there was still no decent sandboxing in Firefox for Linux. Also, there is no working embedding API AFAIK with either Gecko or Goanna.
Choose your poison
Yes, that about sums it up all.
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 09:53:10 am Mavridis Philippe wrote:
E. Liddell wrote:
It also has an obsolete Javascript engine and an uncertain number of
security holes
Ah, yeah, that's why I block it from the Internet (see prior messages for how). Which makes it a great 'browser' to use for wget downloads and the like.
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 09:53:10 am Mavridis Philippe wrote:
I'd argue that since it supports a very limited portion of JavaScript and apparently none of the modern Web APIs like WebRTC, WebAssembly etc., the attack surface is actually smaller. The only disadvantages from a security standpoint would be effective lack of eyes and work on the source (the obvious disadvantage being, of course, a browser stuck in time).
Agreed. I just disable Javascript and Java altogether. Perhaps until something can be done this should be the default.
Webkit
Looks like the least evil choice to go for TDE. Upstream versions seem to offer decent rendering and boast good privacy, and it can be integrated deeply with TQt/TDE.
I think Webkit is very underrated, it's used by Midori, Badwolf, Qutebrowser, etc. so it seems to be popular for privacy and freedom oriented browsers. Using things like Midori in the past, it can display modern web pages just fine.
its fork Blink
I don't trust Blink at all just due to the "creep" from it dominating the web browser market with Google in charge. They could create any standard they want at any time and every browser for the sake of compatibility would have to comply.
and QT5's repackage of Blink's core as WebEngine
Just QT5 Blink.
With current manpower I don't see Konqueror getting a browser revival any time soon, but it's still nice to think about. I only mention it so much because on the first installation of TDE your web browser *is* Konqueror in its current state, with a launcher in the panel and on the desktop. Not a great start.
Off-topic but blu, I don't know if I told you I liked Tristian (the polar bear). I never got to make my entry because then and now I've been too busy with the stress of modern academia to learn much outside of school. If we got another mascot, I would be fine with Tristian. :-)
On 2022/02/03 03:17 AM, Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 09:53:10 am Mavridis Philippe wrote:
I'd argue that since it supports a very limited portion of JavaScript and apparently none of the modern Web APIs like WebRTC, WebAssembly etc., the attack surface is actually smaller. The only disadvantages from a security standpoint would be effective lack of eyes and work on the source (the obvious disadvantage being, of course, a browser stuck in time).
Agreed. I just disable Javascript and Java altogether. Perhaps until something can be done this should be the default.
That may be a good idea I guess.
Webkit
With current manpower I don't see Konqueror getting a browser revival any time soon, but it's still nice to think about.
Agreed, it is nice to discuss it and it would be good to do it. But not sure of what effort is required and whether we can fit that in with current manpower. If anyone is willing to help, we can probably discuss it further.
Off-topic but blu, I don't know if I told you I liked Tristian (the polar bear). I never got to make my entry because then and now I've been too busy with the stress of modern academia to learn much outside of school. If we got another mascot, I would be fine with Tristian. :-)
It was suggested to create a website page and ask around for people to submit more choices. That is also a good idea, but we haven't done it yet, it's one of the thousand's pending things....
Cheers Michele
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 18:26:27 Michele Calgaro via tde-users wrote:
On 2022/02/03 03:17 AM, Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 09:53:10 am Mavridis Philippe wrote:
I'd argue that since it supports a very limited portion of JavaScript and apparently none of the modern Web APIs like WebRTC, WebAssembly etc., the attack surface is actually smaller. The only disadvantages from a security standpoint would be effective lack of eyes and work on the source (the obvious disadvantage being, of course, a browser stuck in time).
Agreed. I just disable Javascript and Java altogether. Perhaps until something can be done this should be the default.
That may be a good idea I guess.
Webkit
With current manpower I don't see Konqueror getting a browser revival any time soon, but it's still nice to think about.
Agreed, it is nice to discuss it and it would be good to do it. But not sure of what effort is required and whether we can fit that in with current manpower. If anyone is willing to help, we can probably discuss it further.
Off-topic but blu, I don't know if I told you I liked Tristian (the polar bear). I never got to make my entry because then and now I've been too busy with the stress of modern academia to learn much outside of school. If we got another mascot, I would be fine with Tristian. :-)
It was suggested to create a website page and ask around for people to submit more choices. That is also a good idea, but we haven't done it yet, it's one of the thousand's pending things....
Cheers Michele
I've said this before; some agree with me, and some don't, but here goes ...
Konqueror is a great file manager, better than any of the other choices out there, in my opinion. But I think it's a very bad idea to use it as *both* a file manager *and* a web browser. That is an idea left over from the good old days, when most people didn't worry so much about having our machines compromised by intruders.
If you use it for both file management and as a browser, it opens up a superhighway into your system. If you have ever somehow opened a browser window, and see a list of your home folder instead of a web page (for example), you may get what I mean. It's true, you can sandbox it, or you can block internet access for specific programs, but the best thing is just not to mix those two activities in such a program. Use it for one or the other.
As I said, some may disagree, and maybe they do know better. As far as I am concerned, I would like to see a Konqueror stripped of all web browsing capabilities. As a file manager, however, I want development to continue, onward and upward, better and better, because I use it all the time, almost exclusively, as a file manager.
Bill
On February 2, 2022 8:55:35 PM CST, William Morder via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
If you use it for both file management and as a browser, it opens up a superhighway into your system.
Most modern web browsers are essentially just file managers that display web pages. For example, I had to use a separate user for Steam on FreeBSD and it even picked up Firefox as my default file manager as that user. You could open files, view them, and play videos. This is similar in functionality to Konqueror. At the root every web browser is displaying HTML, CSS, and JS/PHP etc. source files in a dedicated file manager.
As I said, some may disagree, and maybe they do know better. As far as I am concerned, I would like to see a Konqueror stripped of all web browsing capabilities.
I don't know better, but over time I learned the functionality of file managers and web browsers are similar. :-) I think tdeparts are really modular, so perhaps the tdepart used for web browsing could be optional? This is like the opposite of what KDE5 did where they stripped the file management portion of Konqueror which now requires a Dolphin kpart.
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 09:55:35 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 18:26:27 Michele Calgaro via tde-users wrote:
On 2022/02/03 03:17 AM, Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 09:53:10 am Mavridis Philippe wrote:
I'd argue that since it supports a very limited portion of JavaScript and apparently none of the modern Web APIs like WebRTC, WebAssembly etc., the attack surface is actually smaller. The only disadvantages from a security standpoint would be effective lack of eyes and work on the source (the obvious disadvantage being, of course, a browser stuck in time).
Agreed. I just disable Javascript and Java altogether. Perhaps until something can be done this should be the default.
That may be a good idea I guess.
Webkit
With current manpower I don't see Konqueror getting a browser revival any time soon, but it's still nice to think about.
Agreed, it is nice to discuss it and it would be good to do it. But not sure of what effort is required and whether we can fit that in with current manpower. If anyone is willing to help, we can probably discuss it further.
Off-topic but blu, I don't know if I told you I liked Tristian (the polar bear). I never got to make my entry because then and now I've been too busy with the stress of modern academia to learn much outside of school. If we got another mascot, I would be fine with Tristian. :-)
It was suggested to create a website page and ask around for people to submit more choices. That is also a good idea, but we haven't done it yet, it's one of the thousand's pending things....
Cheers Michele
I've said this before; some agree with me, and some don't, but here goes ...
Konqueror is a great file manager, better than any of the other choices out there, in my opinion. But I think it's a very bad idea to use it as *both* a file manager *and* a web browser. That is an idea left over from the good old days, when most people didn't worry so much about having our machines compromised by intruders.
If you use it for both file management and as a browser, it opens up a superhighway into your system. If you have ever somehow opened a browser window, and see a list of your home folder instead of a web page (for example), you may get what I mean. It's true, you can sandbox it, or you can block internet access for specific programs, but the best thing is just not to mix those two activities in such a program. Use it for one or the other.
As I said, some may disagree, and maybe they do know better. As far as I am concerned, I would like to see a Konqueror stripped of all web browsing capabilities. As a file manager, however, I want development to continue, onward and upward, better and better, because I use it all the time, almost exclusively, as a file manager.
Bill ____________________________________________________
Agreed.
Kate
Anno domini 2022 Wed, 2 Feb 23:18:14 -0500 Borg Labs scripsit:
[...]
As I said, some may disagree, and maybe they do know better. As far as I am concerned, I would like to see a Konqueror stripped of all web browsing capabilities. As a file manager, however, I want development to continue, onward and upward, better and better, because I use it all the time, almost exclusively, as a file manager.
Bill ____________________________________________________
Agreed.
+1
I would be happy, if konqueror would call out to the "default" web browser for anthing http:// https://, not just urls stored in *.desktop files.
Nik
Kate ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
-- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ...
On 2022-02-03 02:16:45 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2022 Wed, 2 Feb 23:18:14 -0500
Borg Labs scripsit:
[...]
As I said, some may disagree, and maybe they do know better. As far as I am concerned, I would like to see a Konqueror stripped of all web browsing capabilities. As a file manager, however, I want development to continue, onward and upward, better and better, because I use it all the time, almost exclusively, as a file manager.
Bill ____________________________________________________
Agreed.
+1
I would be happy, if konqueror would call out to the "default" web browser for anthing http:// https://, not just urls stored in *.desktop files.
Nik
Yes, this ought to be a low labour-cost solution compared with replacing the web engine. I like it.
Leslie -- Platform: Linux Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.3 x86_64 Desktop Environment: Trinity Qt: 3.5.0 TDE: R14.0.11 tde-config: 1.0
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 09:55:35 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 18:26:27 Michele Calgaro via tde-users wrote:
On 2022/02/03 03:17 AM, Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 09:53:10 am Mavridis Philippe wrote:
I'd argue that since it supports a very limited portion of JavaScript and apparently none of the modern Web APIs like WebRTC, WebAssembly etc., the attack surface is actually smaller. The only disadvantages from a security standpoint would be effective lack of eyes and work on the source (the obvious disadvantage being, of course, a browser stuck in time).
Agreed. I just disable Javascript and Java altogether. Perhaps until something can be done this should be the default.
That may be a good idea I guess.
Webkit
With current manpower I don't see Konqueror getting a browser revival any time soon, but it's still nice to think about.
Agreed, it is nice to discuss it and it would be good to do it. But not sure of what effort is required and whether we can fit that in with current manpower. If anyone is willing to help, we can probably discuss it further.
Off-topic but blu, I don't know if I told you I liked Tristian (the polar bear). I never got to make my entry because then and now I've been too busy with the stress of modern academia to learn much outside of school. If we got another mascot, I would be fine with Tristian. :-)
It was suggested to create a website page and ask around for people to submit more choices. That is also a good idea, but we haven't done it yet, it's one of the thousand's pending things....
Cheers Michele
I've said this before; some agree with me, and some don't, but here goes ...
Konqueror is a great file manager, better than any of the other choices out there, in my opinion. But I think it's a very bad idea to use it as *both* a file manager *and* a web browser. That is an idea left over from the good old days, when most people didn't worry so much about having our machines compromised by intruders.
If you use it for both file management and as a browser, it opens up a superhighway into your system. If you have ever somehow opened a browser window, and see a list of your home folder instead of a web page (for example), you may get what I mean. It's true, you can sandbox it, or you can block internet access for specific programs, but the best thing is just not to mix those two activities in such a program. Use it for one or the other.
As I said, some may disagree, and maybe they do know better. As far as I am concerned, I would like to see a Konqueror stripped of all web browsing capabilities. As a file manager, however, I want development to continue, onward and upward, better and better, because I use it all the time, almost exclusively, as a file manager.
Bill ____________________________________________________
Agreed.
Kate
PS sorry for sending a reply directly to you. It's late, and I'm sleepy.
On Monday 31 January 2022 03:44:21 pm c. marlow wrote:
Install the minimalistic Trinity Desktop Environment:
Does all of this sound ok? Or is there anything that you would tweak?
Hi Chris,
Nope. Does not sound okay.
It seems like most/all the issues you're having are because of the minimal install.
Unless you have some very weird disk space problem, install all of TDE and you’ll have a much better experience. (and won’t be missing things like folder compression...)
Best, Michael
On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 09:31:39 -0600 Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:
Nope. Does not sound okay.
It seems like most/all the issues you're having are because of the minimal install.
Unless you have some very weird disk space problem, install all of TDE and you’ll have a much better experience. (and won’t be missing things like folder compression...)
Best, Michael
Then how do you install Fedora with NO DE, to where I could install only TDE?
I know Q4OS and PCLinuxOS have TDE as the default DE.
Thanks, Chris
On Wednesday 02 February 2022 09:56:06 am c. marlow wrote:
On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 09:31:39 -0600
Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:
Nope. Does not sound okay.
It seems like most/all the issues you're having are because of the minimal install.
Unless you have some very weird disk space problem, install all of TDE and you’ll have a much better experience. (and won’t be missing things like folder compression...)
Best, Michael
Then how do you install Fedora with NO DE, to where I could install only TDE?
I know Q4OS and PCLinuxOS have TDE as the default DE.
Use the Base or Core Fedora .ISO? Fedora’s not my thing, so maybe someone else on the list can help, or just do a google search...
Once you do it, here is a guide on the command line TDE installation.
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
That has some scripts attached to make life easier.
On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 10:23:39 -0600 Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:
Use the Base or Core Fedora .ISO? Fedora’s not my thing, so maybe someone else on the list can help, or just do a google search...
Once you do it, here is a guide on the command line TDE installation.
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
That has some scripts attached to make life easier.
This:
https://able.bio/KY64/minimal-installation-fedora-linux--73410e6d
Thanks, Chris
This:
https://able.bio/KY64/minimal-installation-fedora-linux--73410e6d
I think this is the right iso, but I am just waiting on a response to make sure.
Thanks, Chris
-
ajh-valmer -
Borg Labs -
c. marlow -
c. marlow
-
deloptes -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
E. Liddell -
Felix Miata -
Hunter Ellett -
J Leslie Turriff -
Mavridis Philippe -
Michael -
Michele Calgaro -
Thierry de Coulon -
William Morder