said Gianluca Interlandi:
| Just wondering, is the issue with internet service providers (ISPs) | blocking the e-mails or is it the e-mail service companies? In the | latter case, would it solve it by switching to a different e-mail | service, e.g., from GMX to gmail or similar?
Oh, and handing the mail over to Google is not something that accomplishes anything that any sane person would want to have. Google, for all its "want-some-candy-little-girl?" freebies, is evil. -- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, dep wrote:
said Gianluca Interlandi:
| Just wondering, is the issue with internet service providers (ISPs) | blocking the e-mails or is it the e-mail service companies? In the | latter case, would it solve it by switching to a different e-mail | service, e.g., from GMX to gmail or similar?
Oh, and handing the mail over to Google is not something that accomplishes anything that any sane person would want to have. Google, for all its "want-some-candy-little-girl?" freebies, is evil.
I'm at the UW, which invented the e-mail client pine, contributed to IMAP and other achievements. Now they have handed everything over to google and MS. Reason: if there is a lawsuit, google and MS will come up with the legal means.
Gianluca
-- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/ ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
----------------------------------------------------- Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A. -----------------------------------------------------
Anno domini 09:44:40 Wed, 6 Oct 2021 -0700 (PDT) Gianluca Interlandi scripsit:
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, dep wrote:
said Gianluca Interlandi:
| Just wondering, is the issue with internet service providers (ISPs) | blocking the e-mails or is it the e-mail service companies? In the | latter case, would it solve it by switching to a different e-mail | service, e.g., from GMX to gmail or similar?
Oh, and handing the mail over to Google is not something that accomplishes anything that any sane person would want to have. Google, for all its "want-some-candy-little-girl?" freebies, is evil.
I'm at the UW, which invented the e-mail client pine, contributed to IMAP and other achievements. Now they have handed everything over to google and MS. Reason: if there is a lawsuit, google and MS will come up with the legal means.
I wonder which is the greater theat: lawsuit or depending on Google and M$ defending UW in a lawsuit.
Nik
Gianluca
said Dr. Nikolaus Klepp: | Anno domini 09:44:40 Wed, 6 Oct 2021 -0700 (PDT) | | Gianluca Interlandi scripsit: | > On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, dep wrote: | > > said Gianluca Interlandi: | > > | Just wondering, is the issue with internet service providers | > > | (ISPs) blocking the e-mails or is it the e-mail service companies? | > > | In the latter case, would it solve it by switching to a different | > > | e-mail service, e.g., from GMX to gmail or similar? | > > | > > Oh, and handing the mail over to Google is not something that | > > accomplishes anything that any sane person would want to have. | > > Google, for all its "want-some-candy-little-girl?" freebies, is | > > evil. | > | > I'm at the UW, which invented the e-mail client pine, contributed to | > IMAP and other achievements. Now they have handed everything over to | > google and MS. Reason: if there is a lawsuit, google and MS will come | > up with the legal means. | | I wonder which is the greater theat: lawsuit or depending on Google and | M$ defending UW in a lawsuit.
They are surely operating on the theory that the bear will eat them last. Which with these guys I'm not sure there's evidence to support. -- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 09:44:40 Wed, 6 Oct 2021 -0700 (PDT) Gianluca Interlandi scripsit:
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, dep wrote:
said Gianluca Interlandi:
| Just wondering, is the issue with internet service providers (ISPs) | blocking the e-mails or is it the e-mail service companies? In the | latter case, would it solve it by switching to a different e-mail | service, e.g., from GMX to gmail or similar?
Oh, and handing the mail over to Google is not something that accomplishes anything that any sane person would want to have. Google, for all its "want-some-candy-little-girl?" freebies, is evil.
I'm at the UW, which invented the e-mail client pine, contributed to IMAP and other achievements. Now they have handed everything over to google and MS. Reason: if there is a lawsuit, google and MS will come up with the legal means.
I wonder which is the greater theat: lawsuit or depending on Google and M$ defending UW in a lawsuit.
This is a good one. They leave it to whomever is next in charge to solve any future problems.
Nik
Gianluca
-- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
----------------------------------------------------- Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A. -----------------------------------------------------
On Wednesday 06 October 2021 12:44:40 Gianluca Interlandi wrote:
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, dep wrote:
said Gianluca Interlandi: | Just wondering, is the issue with internet service providers | (ISPs) blocking the e-mails or is it the e-mail service companies? | In the latter case, would it solve it by switching to a different | e-mail service, e.g., from GMX to gmail or similar?
Oh, and handing the mail over to Google is not something that accomplishes anything that any sane person would want to have. Google, for all its "want-some-candy-little-girl?" freebies, is evil.
I'm at the UW, which invented the e-mail client pine, contributed to IMAP and other achievements. Now they have handed everything over to google and MS. Reason: if there is a lawsuit, google and MS will come up with the legal means.
Gianluca
A protection racket, but who protects you from the racketeers enforcement flunkies?
-- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/ ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trini tydesktop.org
Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, Gene Heskett wrote:
On Wednesday 06 October 2021 12:44:40 Gianluca Interlandi wrote:
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, dep wrote:
said Gianluca Interlandi: | Just wondering, is the issue with internet service providers | (ISPs) blocking the e-mails or is it the e-mail service companies? | In the latter case, would it solve it by switching to a different | e-mail service, e.g., from GMX to gmail or similar?
Oh, and handing the mail over to Google is not something that accomplishes anything that any sane person would want to have. Google, for all its "want-some-candy-little-girl?" freebies, is evil.
I'm at the UW, which invented the e-mail client pine, contributed to IMAP and other achievements. Now they have handed everything over to google and MS. Reason: if there is a lawsuit, google and MS will come up with the legal means.
Gianluca
A protection racket, but who protects you from the racketeers enforcement flunkies?
It's not that google and MS would defend the UW, it's more like those companies have the resources to protect themselves. So for example if there is a data leak, the UW could simply say it's google/MS fault. It's about the UW outsourcing the responsibility (mostly because of the school of medicine with its complicated legal policies). How that would play out in real life, I don't know. I'm just stunned how academia used to be the place of innovation and now they can't even run an e-mail server (or at least the legal implications would make it complicated).
Gianluca
-- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/ ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trini tydesktop.org
Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
----------------------------------------------------- Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A. -----------------------------------------------------
A protection racket, but who protects you from the racketeers enforcement flunkies?
It's not that google and MS would defend the UW, it's more like those companies have the resources to protect themselves. So for example if there is a data leak, the UW could simply say it's google/MS fault. It's about the UW outsourcing the responsibility (mostly because of the school of medicine with its complicated legal policies). How that would play out in real life, I don't know. I'm just stunned how academia used to be the place of innovation and now they can't even run an e-mail server (or at least the legal implications would make it complicated).
Gianluca
It's all a racket. War is a racket, and if you want peace instead, we can offer you our premium racket that will (usually) protect you from war, except of course when it cannot actually protect you from everything and everybody else. If you want "privacy", that will really cost you, because only if you are rich can you afford privacy; except of course that when you get rich enough to afford it, you must also become too famous, or at least too well known, to be private and anonymous.
RMS gets a bad rap these days, but he was right about one basic idea: that our data ought never be collected in the first place. Once it is collected, with or without our permission, whether it is legal or illegal, then *somebody* out there will want it, and will have the means to get it.
The only real solution is to stop it before it ever gets collected, to dig out the root of the problem.
Unless we intend to give up all modern technology which has the potential to collect our data, we are left, therefore, with only one choice, which is to encrypt, and to make our encryption essentially unbreakable, by making it too costly or time-consuming for anybody to break.
I believe it was Michael who said it about a dozen emails earlier: We could set up an easy, step-by-step, how-to guide on how to encrypt; something that anybody could follow (including old farts like Gene and myself). If that is too high a bar for entry to our club, then maybe TDE, we regret to say, is not for everybody?
Even if we don't want to exclude anybody, especially newbies to Trinity, we can at least start the ball rolling in the right direction. And that way, according to all the signs, is the future, where everybody uses encryption.
Maybe the place to start is with an easy-peasy "how to encrypt" page somewhere in our wiki or mailing list pages? Those who want to use encryption can start using it; nobody is forced to do anything, but it's highly recommended. It would be nice to have gnupgp keys for the Trinity group, so that they can be used when it will help to avoid blocking or similar problems.
One step at a time, but we ought at least to start moving in the right direction, toward total encryption. Rome wasn't built in a day.
Bill
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
A protection racket, but who protects you from the racketeers enforcement flunkies?
It's not that google and MS would defend the UW, it's more like those companies have the resources to protect themselves. So for example if there is a data leak, the UW could simply say it's google/MS fault. It's about the UW outsourcing the responsibility (mostly because of the school of medicine with its complicated legal policies). How that would play out in real life, I don't know. I'm just stunned how academia used to be the place of innovation and now they can't even run an e-mail server (or at least the legal implications would make it complicated).
Gianluca
It's all a racket. War is a racket, and if you want peace instead, we can offer you our premium racket that will (usually) protect you from war, except of course when it cannot actually protect you from everything and everybody else. If you want "privacy", that will really cost you, because only if you are rich can you afford privacy; except of course that when you get rich enough to afford it, you must also become too famous, or at least too well known, to be private and anonymous.
RMS gets a bad rap these days, but he was right about one basic idea: that our data ought never be collected in the first place. Once it is collected, with or without our permission, whether it is legal or illegal, then *somebody* out there will want it, and will have the means to get it.
Who is RMS?
The only real solution is to stop it before it ever gets collected, to dig out the root of the problem.
Unless we intend to give up all modern technology which has the potential to collect our data, we are left, therefore, with only one choice, which is to encrypt, and to make our encryption essentially unbreakable, by making it too costly or time-consuming for anybody to break.
I believe it was Michael who said it about a dozen emails earlier: We could set up an easy, step-by-step, how-to guide on how to encrypt; something that anybody could follow (including old farts like Gene and myself). If that is too high a bar for entry to our club, then maybe TDE, we regret to say, is not for everybody?
Even if we don't want to exclude anybody, especially newbies to Trinity, we can at least start the ball rolling in the right direction. And that way, according to all the signs, is the future, where everybody uses encryption.
Maybe the place to start is with an easy-peasy "how to encrypt" page somewhere in our wiki or mailing list pages? Those who want to use encryption can start using it; nobody is forced to do anything, but it's highly recommended. It would be nice to have gnupgp keys for the Trinity group, so that they can be used when it will help to avoid blocking or similar problems.
One step at a time, but we ought at least to start moving in the right direction, toward total encryption. Rome wasn't built in a day.
Bill ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
----------------------------------------------------- Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A. -----------------------------------------------------
On Wednesday 06 October 2021 16:35:20 you wrote:
RMS gets a bad rap these days, but he was right about one basic idea: that our data ought never be collected in the first place. Once it is collected, with or without our permission, whether it is legal or illegal, then *somebody* out there will want it, and will have the means to get it.
Who is RMS?
Oh, sorry for the shorthand. [And apologies for accidentally sending to your personal email!]
Richard Stallman, one of main persons behind GNU/Linux. (Or, he would probably say, the *only* one, the sole creator ... ) You can discover more for yourself, as there are a lot of pages out there either written by him or about him. The FOSS or Open Source movement is rather a watered-down version of his original idea.
He annoying at best, a jerk or asshole most of the time, and nowadays has got himself a bad reputation, and some of it is deserved. He says a lot of things that are, um, politically incorrect or worse. But he was right about this one idea, which is that we must stop these problems at their root.
Bill
Anno domini 2021 Wed, 6 Oct 16:58:51 -0700 William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Wednesday 06 October 2021 16:35:20 you wrote:
RMS gets a bad rap these days, but he was right about one basic idea: that our data ought never be collected in the first place. Once it is collected, with or without our permission, whether it is legal or illegal, then *somebody* out there will want it, and will have the means to get it.
Who is RMS?
Oh, sorry for the shorthand. [And apologies for accidentally sending to your personal email!]
Richard Stallman, one of main persons behind GNU/Linux. (Or, he would probably say, the *only* one, the sole creator ... ) You can discover more for yourself, as there are a lot of pages out there either written by him or about him. The FOSS or Open Source movement is rather a watered-down version of his original idea.
He annoying at best, a jerk or asshole most of the time, and nowadays has got himself a bad reputation, and some of it is deserved. He says a lot of things that are, um, politically incorrect or worse. But he was right about this one idea, which is that we must stop these problems at their root.
His incorrectness is why I like him most :)
Nik
Bill ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
Anno domini 15:01:40 Wed, 6 Oct 2021 -0700 (PDT) Gianluca Interlandi scripsit:
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, Gene Heskett wrote:
On Wednesday 06 October 2021 12:44:40 Gianluca Interlandi wrote:
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021, dep wrote:
said Gianluca Interlandi: | Just wondering, is the issue with internet service providers | (ISPs) blocking the e-mails or is it the e-mail service companies? | In the latter case, would it solve it by switching to a different | e-mail service, e.g., from GMX to gmail or similar?
Oh, and handing the mail over to Google is not something that accomplishes anything that any sane person would want to have. Google, for all its "want-some-candy-little-girl?" freebies, is evil.
I'm at the UW, which invented the e-mail client pine, contributed to IMAP and other achievements. Now they have handed everything over to google and MS. Reason: if there is a lawsuit, google and MS will come up with the legal means.
Gianluca
A protection racket, but who protects you from the racketeers enforcement flunkies?
It's not that google and MS would defend the UW, it's more like those companies have the resources to protect themselves. So for example if there is a data leak, the UW could simply say it's google/MS fault.
That's a good one - often heard from "managers" and "leaders". I can tell what M$/Gockle is going to say in their defense :)
It's about the UW outsourcing the responsibility (mostly because of the school of medicine with its complicated legal policies). How that would play out in real life, I don't know. I'm just stunned how academia used to be the place of innovation and now they can't even run an e-mail server (or at least the legal implications would make it complicated).
In Austria academia started its demise with "Schüssel 1" ~ 25 years ago. But this lamento is long and well known and all the same all over the world. When I was in highschool we had a lecture of a bright person over innovation and economy cycles - that was ~ 1984. He said based on historic data the next up-cycle will reach its climax in ~ 20-25 years due to an invention not yet known followed by the next anitclimax in ~ 50 years. Man, what we laughed about that crude theory - "an unknown invention? How could that be?". And now we are there nearing the next anitclimax and history proofes again that men don't learn from history.
Nik
Gianluca
-- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/ ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trini tydesktop.org
Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A.
In Austria academia started its demise with "Schüssel 1" ~ 25 years ago. But this lamento is long and well known and all the same all over the world. When I was in highschool we had a lecture of a bright person over innovation and economy cycles - that was ~ 1984. He said based on historic data the next up-cycle will reach its climax in ~ 20-25 years due to an invention not yet known followed by the next anitclimax in ~ 50 years. Man, what we laughed about that crude theory - "an unknown invention? How could that be?". And now we are there nearing the next anitclimax and history proofes again that men don't learn from history.
Curious: Do you remember the name of the person who gave the lecture?
Gianluca
Nik
Gianluca
-- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/ ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trini tydesktop.org
Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A.
-- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
----------------------------------------------------- Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A. -----------------------------------------------------
Anno domini 09:29:20 Thu, 7 Oct 2021 -0700 (PDT) Gianluca Interlandi scripsit:
In Austria academia started its demise with "Schüssel 1" ~ 25 years ago. But this lamento is long and well known and all the same all over the world. When I was in highschool we had a lecture of a bright person over innovation and economy cycles - that was ~ 1984. He said based on historic data the next up-cycle will reach its climax in ~ 20-25 years due to an invention not yet known followed by the next anitclimax in ~ 50 years. Man, what we laughed about that crude theory - "an unknown invention? How could that be?". And now we are there nearing the next anitclimax and history proofes again that men don't learn from history.
Curious: Do you remember the name of the person who gave the lecture?
It's a shame, but I don't. Ignorant pupils we were back then ... and at least some are ashame of it :(
Nik
Gianluca
Nik
Gianluca
-- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/ ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trini tydesktop.org
Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A.
-- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A.
-
dep -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
Gene Heskett -
Gianluca Interlandi -
Michael -
William Morder