I have just tried to install TDE, but have been told that Slávek's repository is not accessible. ??? I'll try Tim's for now.
Lisi
On Friday 02 of October 2015 19:47:11 Lisi Reisz wrote:
I have just tried to install TDE, but have been told that Slávek's repository is not accessible. ??? I'll try Tim's for now.
Lisi
Now I tried it and the web server appears to be normally available. I tested the availability of packages for Jessie and apt source seems to be fine.
On Saturday 03 of October 2015 01:28:39 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Friday 02 of October 2015 19:47:11 Lisi Reisz wrote:
I have just tried to install TDE, but have been told that Slávek's repository is not accessible. ??? I'll try Tim's for now.
Lisi
Now I tried it and the web server appears to be normally available. I tested the availability of packages for Jessie and apt source seems to be fine.
One more useful information: the second mirror of preliminary stable builds repository is available at depot-trinity.dotriver.eu:
http://depot-trinity.dotriver.eu/trinity-sb
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On 2015/10/03 06:34 AM, Slávek Banko wrote:
On Saturday 03 of October 2015 01:28:39 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Friday 02 of October 2015 19:47:11 Lisi Reisz wrote:
I have just tried to install TDE, but have been told that Slávek's repository is not accessible. ??? I'll try Tim's for now.
Lisi
Now I tried it and the web server appears to be normally available. I tested the availability of packages for Jessie and apt source seems to be fine.
One more useful information: the second mirror of preliminary stable builds repository is available at depot-trinity.dotriver.eu:
Slavek, can you add this info to the wiki page about preliminary stable builds? That would be a good reference for users. Cheers Michele
On Saturday 03 October 2015 00:28:39 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Friday 02 of October 2015 19:47:11 Lisi Reisz wrote:
I have just tried to install TDE, but have been told that Slávek's repository is not accessible. ??? I'll try Tim's for now.
Lisi
Now I tried it and the web server appears to be normally available. I tested the availability of packages for Jessie and apt source seems to be fine.
Yes, Slávek, I'm sorry. I managed to install with Tim's repositories, and, once I could see a bit, there was a comma instead of a full stop at one point in your repository in my sorces.list. I had checked and checked it, but i just couldn't see it!! :-(
I was lucky that Tim's was OK. It very rarely is. It is inaccessible again this morning.
This is an ongoing problem that I have with spreading the word about TDE. Tim's repository is almost normally not available for us (in England? On the South Coast? Everyone I know who tries to use TDE!), and it is hard to find anything else to use. When I asked recently I was told just to use Tim's and it would chose the best mirror. That is no use if Tim's is unavailable.
I always say just to use Slávek's. Yesterday was the first time that Slávek's has appeared to be unavailable, and in fact it was. It is very reliable, but hard to find for someone happening on the website.
The error message that I am currently getting (it has been alright on this particular computer for the last few days since I set it up when I wrote the other day and asked about mirrors) is under my signature.
Can we at least localise this problem. It has been there ever since I have been using TDE and makes installing TDE difficult. Does it apply anywhere other than the south of England? Once we have localised it, can someone help me solve it? Perhaps we need to find a main mirror this side of the Atlantic.
And meanwhile what mirror does anyone other than Mike (thanks for your advice, Mike, when I asked a week ago. But as you can see it hasn't helped) suggest for 3.5.13.2 now I can't use a nice reliable Slávek one for it? I currently can't connect to the web archive (I was going to link to my email about this of a week ago) so you won't even get this for a bit!
One person, who sets computers up for "old people" and decided that Unity was too resource hungry for old computers, has abandoned TDE (which was front runner) in favour of LXDE largely because of this problem. It is really very tedious to be unable to install/update time after time while you wait for whatever gremlin is amusing himself to go away. I just said to use Slávek's repository, but he very reasonably pointed out that it doesn't say so here:
I was going to link to the page on how to get TDE. It is unavailable. There is obviously a larger problem at the moment. But the update problem is ongoing.
There must be a reliable mirror somewhere that can be reached from England. If not, give me a mentor who will help with advice, because I don't know where or how to start, and I'll try to find you one. And anyhow I'll start asking people how to do it.
The best, of course, would be to be in Debian's repostitories, but we haven't the resources for that. :-(
Perhaps we are just too small and need to find a millionnaire?
Lisi Error message for update: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/di...: Could not connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:80 (192.119.205.243). - connect (113: No route to host) W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13...: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/di...: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/di...: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13...: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13...: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/di...: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/di...: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13...: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13...: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: E: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead. E: Couldn't rebuild package cache
Lisi Reisz composed on 2015-10-03 16:09 (UTC+0100):
Tim's repository is almost normally not available for us (in England? On the South Coast? Everyone I know who tries to use TDE!), and it is hard to find anything else to use. When I asked recently I was told just to use Tim's and it would chose the best mirror. That is no use if Tim's is unavailable.
Tim's is inaccessible nearly as often as not here in SE USA, including recent hours.
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Lisi Reisz composed on 2015-10-03 16:09 (UTC+0100):
Tim's repository is almost normally not available for us (in England? On the South Coast? Everyone I know who tries to use TDE!), and it is hard to find anything else to use. When I asked recently I was told just to use Tim's and it would chose the best mirror. That is no use if Tim's is unavailable.
Tim's is inaccessible nearly as often as not here in SE USA, including recent hours.
I don't think that's a fair assessment...while my uptime isn't has high as I would like it isn't really that bad.
The recent outage was traced to a couple of problems, bad RAM in one machine and a defective 12V power connector in another. The latter issue resulted in one of the 12V lines literally burning out, complete with charred insulation.
Please bear in mind that the TDE services are sustained almost wholly on my financial contributions, as there have been very very few donations for the past year or more. As a result uptime suffers somewhat. ;-)
Tim
Timothy Pearson composed on 2015-10-05 00:40 (UTC-0500):
Tim's is inaccessible nearly as often as not here in SE USA, including recent hours.
I don't think that's a fair assessment...while my uptime isn't has high as I would like it isn't really that bad.
I have lots of installations of various versions of openSUSE, *buntu, Mageia, Fedora, Debian and others, but approximately more openSUSE than all the rest combined. Routine openSUSE update process here, which can happen any day of week and any time of day or night, is:
# zypper ref # zypper up
During ref, zypper pauses to notify when pearsoncomputing.net is inaccessible. After answering ignore, zypper asks if the TDE repo should be disabled, to which my answer is always no. These happen twice, one pair for arch, one pair for noarch. So, it's routine that I notice, and am bothered, when it cannot be accessed. There's no easy way I've discovered to determine in advance whether to expect it to be accessible. Unlike http://archive.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/ or http://mirrors.us.kernel.org/debian/, redirects typically inhibit or outright deny attempts to check availability.
Most of my installations exist purely for testing purposes, used few hours per year. The machines on which they live need to be physically rotated in and out of workspace in order to be used. When any update is prevented by an inaccessible repo, progress halts, so I can't help but notice.
This sort of begs the question: why isn't TDE mirrored in the places where we get our distributions and updates, major mirrors like kernel.org or gwdg.de or the various universities providing mirroring service? What would it take to make it happen?
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Timothy Pearson composed on 2015-10-05 00:40 (UTC-0500):
Tim's is inaccessible nearly as often as not here in SE USA, including recent hours.
I don't think that's a fair assessment...while my uptime isn't has high as I would like it isn't really that bad.
I have lots of installations of various versions of openSUSE, *buntu, Mageia, Fedora, Debian and others, but approximately more openSUSE than all the rest combined. Routine openSUSE update process here, which can happen any day of week and any time of day or night, is:
# zypper ref # zypper up
During ref, zypper pauses to notify when pearsoncomputing.net is inaccessible. After answering ignore, zypper asks if the TDE repo should be disabled, to which my answer is always no. These happen twice, one pair for arch, one pair for noarch. So, it's routine that I notice, and am bothered, when it cannot be accessed. There's no easy way I've discovered to determine in advance whether to expect it to be accessible. Unlike http://archive.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/ or http://mirrors.us.kernel.org/debian/, redirects typically inhibit or outright deny attempts to check availability.
Most of my installations exist purely for testing purposes, used few hours per year. The machines on which they live need to be physically rotated in and out of workspace in order to be used. When any update is prevented by an inaccessible repo, progress halts, so I can't help but notice.
This sort of begs the question: why isn't TDE mirrored in the places where we get our distributions and updates, major mirrors like kernel.org or gwdg.de or the various universities providing mirroring service? What would it take to make it happen? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
The actual TDE repositories are mirrored; you can select a mirror from this list and pretty much ignore the rest of the TDE services if you want to.
https://trinitydesktop.org/mirrorstatus.php
The only caveat is that occasionally we add / lose mirrors (after all, the mirrors are being provided to us on the good will of other people / organisations); you won't receive any notification if a mirror goes down or goes stale.
Tim
Am Montag, 5. Oktober 2015 schrieb Timothy Pearson:
The actual TDE repositories are mirrored; you can select a mirror from this list and pretty much ignore the rest of the TDE services if you want to.
https://trinitydesktop.org/mirrorstatus.php
The only caveat is that occasionally we add / lose mirrors (after all, the mirrors are being provided to us on the good will of other people / organisations); you won't receive any notification if a mirror goes down or goes stale.
Tim
Hi Tim!
What are the requirements for a mirror?
Nik
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Am Montag, 5. Oktober 2015 schrieb Timothy Pearson:
The actual TDE repositories are mirrored; you can select a mirror from this list and pretty much ignore the rest of the TDE services if you want to.
https://trinitydesktop.org/mirrorstatus.php
The only caveat is that occasionally we add / lose mirrors (after all, the mirrors are being provided to us on the good will of other people / organisations); you won't receive any notification if a mirror goes down or goes stale.
Tim
Hi Tim!
What are the requirements for a mirror?
Nik
High speed internet connection with stable IP or DNS name (and without any data caps), and lots of free disk space ( > 100GB). Mirrors are synchronised via rsync and accessed over HTTP, so obviously you need to be able to install the relevant software as well.
Tim
Am Montag, 5. Oktober 2015 schrieb Timothy Pearson:
High speed internet connection with stable IP or DNS name (and without any data caps), and lots of free disk space ( > 100GB). Mirrors are synchronised via rsync and accessed over HTTP, so obviously you need to be able to install the relevant software as well.
Tim
Hi Tim!
As I am (again) moving some domains, I could add a mirror on one of these: https://all-inkl.com/webhosting/premium
It provides 250GB diskspace, rsysnc + ssh + apache + https (self signed) + unlimited traffic.
Nik
On Monday 05 of October 2015 17:56:05 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Am Montag, 5. Oktober 2015 schrieb Timothy Pearson:
High speed internet connection with stable IP or DNS name (and without any data caps), and lots of free disk space ( > 100GB). Mirrors are synchronised via rsync and accessed over HTTP, so obviously you need to be able to install the relevant software as well.
Tim
Hi Tim!
As I am (again) moving some domains, I could add a mirror on one of these: https://all-inkl.com/webhosting/premium
It provides 250GB diskspace, rsysnc + ssh + apache + https (self signed) + unlimited traffic.
Nik
Here I see a problem in that it is "only" web hosting. As mentioned in a one of previous emails - we now have a vps == virtual machine fully under our control. Thanks to vpsfree.cz we got this vps as a donation.
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On Monday 05 of October 2015 17:56:05 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Am Montag, 5. Oktober 2015 schrieb Timothy Pearson:
High speed internet connection with stable IP or DNS name (and without any data caps), and lots of free disk space ( > 100GB). Mirrors are synchronised via rsync and accessed over HTTP, so obviously you need
to
be able to install the relevant software as well.
Tim
Hi Tim!
As I am (again) moving some domains, I could add a mirror on one of these: https://all-inkl.com/webhosting/premium
It provides 250GB diskspace, rsysnc + ssh + apache + https (self signed)
unlimited traffic.
Nik
Here I see a problem in that it is "only" web hosting. As mentioned in a one of previous emails - we now have a vps == virtual machine fully under our control. Thanks to vpsfree.cz we got this vps as a donation.
-- Slávek
He was offering that system as a potential primary archive mirror, not for the web site or associated services. I don't see any harm in adding another archive mirror...
Nik, what kind of upload bandwidth does that server have available?
Thanks!
Tim
What are the requirements for a mirror?
High speed internet connection with stable IP or DNS name (and without any data caps), and lots of free disk space ( > 100GB).
if you want one more mirror I ll be happy to provide one, on a dedicated server at online.net, unlimited transit, 100 mb/s, enough diskspace available
Mirrors are synchronised via rsync and accessed over HTTP, so obviously you need to be able to install the relevant software as well.
you mean rsync and a webserver ? what else could be needed ?
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 12:29:36 Neo Futur wrote:
What are the requirements for a mirror?
High speed internet connection with stable IP or DNS name (and without any data caps), and lots of free disk space ( > 100GB).
if you want one more mirror I ll be happy to provide one, on a dedicated server at online.net, unlimited transit, 100 mb/s, enough diskspace available
Mirrors are synchronised via rsync and accessed over HTTP, so obviously you need to be able to install the relevant software as well.
you mean rsync and a webserver ? what else could be needed ?
Mirrors in Germany (Nik) and Belgium would be great!
Lisi
On Tue October 6 2015 05:23:45 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Mirrors in Germany (Nik) and Belgium would be great!
Hi Lisi,
How many TDE mirrors are needed in Germany?
Belgium?
Luxembourg?
China, India, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, and Australia?
How much does each mirror cost in terms of IPv4 addresses, global warming, person hours, and crucial Tim hours?
How much load does each new mirror impose on other parts of TDE infrastructure?
What is the optimum number of mirrors for TDE - now and for the next year or two?
Thanks,
--Mike
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 16:25:27 Mike Bird wrote:
On Tue October 6 2015 05:23:45 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Mirrors in Germany (Nik) and Belgium would be great!
Hi Lisi,
How many TDE mirrors are needed in Germany?
How many TDE mirrors are needed in the USA? How many are needed in the UK? (Also bad on infrastructure by international, developed and developing, world standards, though not as bad as the USA.) Let's get rid of the inefficient ones in favour of the efficient.
Belgium?
Luxembourg?
China, India, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, and Australia?
China and Russia are just stupid suggestions. How many people in India, Brazil, South Africa and Australia use TDE? And what is the infrastructure like in those countries?
How much does each mirror cost in terms of IPv4 addresses, global warming, person hours, and crucial Tim hours?
How much longer will we be using IPv4? Many people already don't, particularly techie type firms with forward thinking ISPs. If you have no IPv6 in the States - that is something I don't know - then that is another reason for moving to other countries. If you have, why are you taking IPv4 into account?
https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6_deployment
Global warming - not much, since the servers have already been manufactured and are running already. It is only marginal cost that we need to worry about. In Germany, the marginal cost in global warming is zero. They have an oversupply of renewable energy. Another reason for using a German mirror if offered.
We need to organise help for Tim so that fewer of his crucial hours are used. If he has to do everything, then indeed the project can't survive.
How much load does each new mirror impose on other parts of TDE infrastructure?
Then replace expensive mirrors, in terms of Tim's time and global warming, with cheaper ones in better locations. Why on earth have we got two in one place in Kent???? Incidentally, all those queriable ping tests have merely confirmed my prior experience of Kent University's mirrors, and I shall not for now be changing to them. They have had time to improve since I last used them, but it doesn't look as though they have.
What is the optimum number of mirrors for TDE - now and for the next year or two?
You tell me. But lets have better and more reliable ones if we can.
You seem to resent any offers of help from anyone, not just me. Why?
Lisi
On Tue October 6 2015 09:06:52 Lisi Reisz wrote:
What is the optimum number of mirrors for TDE - now and for the next year or two?
You tell me. But lets have better and more reliable ones if we can.
Hi Lisi,
My business uses the services of several data centers. This is the facility which houses one of the TDE mirrors, and also where we monitor the other TDE mirrors.
https://incero.com/dallas-data-center
For obvious reasons I cannot publish here the precise number and locations of the man traps and security cameras but I hope that the three generators, four power systems, four cooling systems, and five tier-one backbones meet with your approval. If not, please let me know where improvements are needed.
I see in our logs the problems we had 10 months ago getting R14 out over the limited bandwidth at the server farm, I see the secondary mirrors being resynced on the 8th-9th of January of this year, and I see all mirrors generally performing well since that time.
When I told you about using ping to choose a mirror I warned you that there are technical caveats. You tell us that the University of Kent has a problem - not your PC, router, fire wall, or ISP but the University of Kent.
Thank you.
Would you please be so good as to provide specific information such as an apt-get error log or equivalent so we can diagnose and fix the problem at the University of Kent?
http://www.capitoline.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Kent-University-Data-Ce...
Thanking you in advance,
--Mike
On Tuesday 06 of October 2015 17:25:27 Mike Bird wrote:
On Tue October 6 2015 05:23:45 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Mirrors in Germany (Nik) and Belgium would be great!
Hi Lisi,
How many TDE mirrors are needed in Germany?
Belgium?
Luxembourg?
China, India, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, and Australia?
How much does each mirror cost in terms of IPv4 addresses, global warming, person hours, and crucial Tim hours?
How much load does each new mirror impose on other parts of TDE infrastructure?
What is the optimum number of mirrors for TDE - now and for the next year or two?
Thanks,
--Mike
I think that for ordinary users is not frustrating number of mirrors, but the fact that due to the unavailability of the primary server was not available redirector and at the same time also a page with a list of mirrors. Ordinary user then finds himself in a stalemate.
Therefore, together with Tim we prepare redirector on VPS.
By the way, it looks already functional - you can try to change the base path in apt sources to http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/... Warning: Final url for redirector on VPS might be changed.
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 17:23:15 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Tuesday 06 of October 2015 17:25:27 Mike Bird wrote:
On Tue October 6 2015 05:23:45 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Mirrors in Germany (Nik) and Belgium would be great!
Hi Lisi,
How many TDE mirrors are needed in Germany?
Belgium?
Luxembourg?
China, India, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, and Australia?
How much does each mirror cost in terms of IPv4 addresses, global warming, person hours, and crucial Tim hours?
How much load does each new mirror impose on other parts of TDE infrastructure?
What is the optimum number of mirrors for TDE - now and for the next year or two?
Thanks,
--Mike
I think that for ordinary users is not frustrating number of mirrors, but the fact that due to the unavailability of the primary server was not available redirector and at the same time also a page with a list of mirrors. Ordinary user then finds himself in a stalemate.
Therefore, together with Tim we prepare redirector on VPS.
By the way, it looks already functional - you can try to change the base path in apt sources to http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/... Warning: Final url for redirector on VPS might be changed.
\o/ Thank you Slávek (and Tim). I'll try it straight away on at least one of my 3.5.13.2 machines.
Lisi
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 17:23:15 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Tuesday 06 of October 2015 17:25:27 Mike Bird wrote:
On Tue October 6 2015 05:23:45 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Mirrors in Germany (Nik) and Belgium would be great!
Hi Lisi,
How many TDE mirrors are needed in Germany?
Belgium?
Luxembourg?
China, India, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, and Australia?
How much does each mirror cost in terms of IPv4 addresses, global warming, person hours, and crucial Tim hours?
How much load does each new mirror impose on other parts of TDE infrastructure?
What is the optimum number of mirrors for TDE - now and for the next year or two?
Thanks,
--Mike
I think that for ordinary users is not frustrating number of mirrors, but the fact that due to the unavailability of the primary server was not available redirector and at the same time also a page with a list of mirrors. Ordinary user then finds himself in a stalemate.
Therefore, together with Tim we prepare redirector on VPS.
By the way, it looks already functional - you can try to change the base path in apt sources to http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/... Warning: Final url for redirector on VPS might be changed.
Just tried it: Err http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' Err http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' Fetched 1,326 kB in 8s (159 kB/s) W: Failed to fetch http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/dists/w...: Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' W: Failed to fetch http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/debi...: Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' W: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead.
Perhaps I got the entries wrong: deb http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian wheezy main deb http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/debi... wheezy main
That is obviously all on two lines in my sources list, but KMail is breaking the lines.
Lisi
On Tuesday 06 of October 2015 18:43:01 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 17:23:15 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Tuesday 06 of October 2015 17:25:27 Mike Bird wrote:
On Tue October 6 2015 05:23:45 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Mirrors in Germany (Nik) and Belgium would be great!
Hi Lisi,
How many TDE mirrors are needed in Germany?
Belgium?
Luxembourg?
China, India, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, and Australia?
How much does each mirror cost in terms of IPv4 addresses, global warming, person hours, and crucial Tim hours?
How much load does each new mirror impose on other parts of TDE infrastructure?
What is the optimum number of mirrors for TDE - now and for the next year or two?
Thanks,
--Mike
I think that for ordinary users is not frustrating number of mirrors, but the fact that due to the unavailability of the primary server was not available redirector and at the same time also a page with a list of mirrors. Ordinary user then finds himself in a stalemate.
Therefore, together with Tim we prepare redirector on VPS.
By the way, it looks already functional - you can try to change the base path in apt sources to http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/... Warning: Final url for redirector on VPS might be changed.
Just tried it: Err http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' Err http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' Fetched 1,326 kB in 8s (159 kB/s) W: Failed to fetch http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/dists/ wheezy/Release.gpg: Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' W: Failed to fetch http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/deb ian/dists/wheezy/Release.gpg: Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' W: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead.
Perhaps I got the entries wrong: deb http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian wheezy main deb http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/deb ian wheezy main
That is obviously all on two lines in my sources list, but KMail is breaking the lines.
Lisi
Oh, sorry, address does not begin mirror.cgit but mirror.git - the correct address is mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 17:49:55 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Tuesday 06 of October 2015 18:43:01 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 17:23:15 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Tuesday 06 of October 2015 17:25:27 Mike Bird wrote:
On Tue October 6 2015 05:23:45 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Mirrors in Germany (Nik) and Belgium would be great!
Hi Lisi,
How many TDE mirrors are needed in Germany?
Belgium?
Luxembourg?
China, India, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, and Australia?
How much does each mirror cost in terms of IPv4 addresses, global warming, person hours, and crucial Tim hours?
How much load does each new mirror impose on other parts of TDE infrastructure?
What is the optimum number of mirrors for TDE - now and for the next year or two?
Thanks,
--Mike
I think that for ordinary users is not frustrating number of mirrors, but the fact that due to the unavailability of the primary server was not available redirector and at the same time also a page with a list of mirrors. Ordinary user then finds himself in a stalemate.
Therefore, together with Tim we prepare redirector on VPS.
By the way, it looks already functional - you can try to change the base path in apt sources to http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/... Warning: Final url for redirector on VPS might be changed.
Just tried it: Err http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' Err http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' Fetched 1,326 kB in 8s (159 kB/s) W: Failed to fetch http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/dist s/ wheezy/Release.gpg: Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' W: Failed to fetch http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/d eb ian/dists/wheezy/Release.gpg: Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' W: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead.
Perhaps I got the entries wrong: deb http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian wheezy main deb http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/d eb ian wheezy main
That is obviously all on two lines in my sources list, but KMail is breaking the lines.
Lisi
Oh, sorry, address does not begin mirror.cgit but mirror.git - the correct address is mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org
Get: 2 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg [836 B] Get: 3 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release [39.7 kB] Get: 4 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release [39.6 kB] Get: 5 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main amd64 Packages [12.2 kB] Get: 6 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main i386 Packages [12.2 kB] Get: 7 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main amd64 Packages [108 kB] Get: 8 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main i386 Packages [108 kB] Ign http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main Translation-en_GB Ign http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main Translation-en Ign http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main Translation-en_GB Ign http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main Translation-en Fetched 322 kB in 24s (13.2 kB/s)
:-))
Lisi
On Tuesday 06 of October 2015 19:51:54 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 17:49:55 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Tuesday 06 of October 2015 18:43:01 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 17:23:15 Slávek Banko wrote:
I think that for ordinary users is not frustrating number of mirrors, but the fact that due to the unavailability of the primary server was not available redirector and at the same time also a page with a list of mirrors. Ordinary user then finds himself in a stalemate.
Therefore, together with Tim we prepare redirector on VPS.
By the way, it looks already functional - you can try to change the base path in apt sources to http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/... Warning: Final url for redirector on VPS might be changed.
Just tried it: Err http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' Err http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' Fetched 1,326 kB in 8s (159 kB/s) W: Failed to fetch http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/di st s/ wheezy/Release.gpg: Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' W: Failed to fetch http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13 /d eb ian/dists/wheezy/Release.gpg: Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' W: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead.
Perhaps I got the entries wrong: deb http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian wheezy main deb http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13 /d eb ian wheezy main
That is obviously all on two lines in my sources list, but KMail is breaking the lines.
Lisi
Oh, sorry, address does not begin mirror.cgit but mirror.git - the correct address is mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org
Get: 2 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg [836 B] Get: 3 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release [39.7 kB] Get: 4 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release [39.6 kB] Get: 5 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main amd64 Packages [12.2 kB] Get: 6 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main i386 Packages [12.2 kB] Get: 7 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main amd64 Packages [108 kB] Get: 8 http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main i386 Packages [108 kB] Ign http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main Translation-en_GB Ign http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main Translation-en Ign http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main Translation-en_GB Ign http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org wheezy/main Translation-en Fetched 322 kB in 24s (13.2 kB/s)
:-))
Lisi
As you correctly recognized by the wiki, the final name for new redirector is mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org. So you can update your apt sources to this final name.
Incidentally, this name can also be used for sources like /slavek-banko/axis, although it is still true that these additional sources are not on mirror sites, so that in case of outage of the primary server will be unavailable.
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 17:43:01 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 17:23:15 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Tuesday 06 of October 2015 17:25:27 Mike Bird wrote:
On Tue October 6 2015 05:23:45 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Mirrors in Germany (Nik) and Belgium would be great!
Hi Lisi,
How many TDE mirrors are needed in Germany?
Belgium?
Luxembourg?
China, India, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, and Australia?
How much does each mirror cost in terms of IPv4 addresses, global warming, person hours, and crucial Tim hours?
How much load does each new mirror impose on other parts of TDE infrastructure?
What is the optimum number of mirrors for TDE - now and for the next year or two?
Thanks,
--Mike
I think that for ordinary users is not frustrating number of mirrors, but the fact that due to the unavailability of the primary server was not available redirector and at the same time also a page with a list of mirrors. Ordinary user then finds himself in a stalemate.
Therefore, together with Tim we prepare redirector on VPS.
By the way, it looks already functional - you can try to change the base path in apt sources to http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/... Warning: Final url for redirector on VPS might be changed.
Just tried it: Err http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' Err http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' Fetched 1,326 kB in 8s (159 kB/s) W: Failed to fetch http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/dists/ wheezy/Release.gpg: Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' W: Failed to fetch http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/deb ian/dists/wheezy/Release.gpg: Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' W: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead.
Perhaps I got the entries wrong: deb http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian wheezy main deb http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/deb ian wheezy main
That is obviously all on two lines in my sources list, but KMail is breaking the lines.
And don't we need a key? Or is Slávek's the relevant one, which we have already?
Lisi
On Tuesday 06 of October 2015 18:53:20 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 17:43:01 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 17:23:15 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Tuesday 06 of October 2015 17:25:27 Mike Bird wrote:
On Tue October 6 2015 05:23:45 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Mirrors in Germany (Nik) and Belgium would be great!
Hi Lisi,
How many TDE mirrors are needed in Germany?
Belgium?
Luxembourg?
China, India, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, and Australia?
How much does each mirror cost in terms of IPv4 addresses, global warming, person hours, and crucial Tim hours?
How much load does each new mirror impose on other parts of TDE infrastructure?
What is the optimum number of mirrors for TDE - now and for the next year or two?
Thanks,
--Mike
I think that for ordinary users is not frustrating number of mirrors, but the fact that due to the unavailability of the primary server was not available redirector and at the same time also a page with a list of mirrors. Ordinary user then finds himself in a stalemate.
Therefore, together with Tim we prepare redirector on VPS.
By the way, it looks already functional - you can try to change the base path in apt sources to http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/... Warning: Final url for redirector on VPS might be changed.
Just tried it: Err http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' Err http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org wheezy Release.gpg Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' Fetched 1,326 kB in 8s (159 kB/s) W: Failed to fetch http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/dist s/ wheezy/Release.gpg: Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' W: Failed to fetch http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/d eb ian/dists/wheezy/Release.gpg: Could not resolve 'mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org' W: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead.
Perhaps I got the entries wrong: deb http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian wheezy main deb http://mirror.cgit.trinitydesktop.org/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/d eb ian wheezy main
That is obviously all on two lines in my sources list, but KMail is breaking the lines.
And don't we need a key? Or is Slávek's the relevant one, which we have already?
Lisi
The gpg keys are the same. It is a redirector to the official Trinity mirrors == official packages with official Trinity gpg key. Beware - there is not my ppa for 3.5.13.x, because it simply is not on the mirrors. Of course are available official 3.5.13.2 packages.
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 18:21:07 Slávek Banko wrote:
The gpg keys are the same. It is a redirector to the official Trinity mirrors == official packages with official Trinity gpg key.
Thanks.
Beware - there is not my ppa for 3.5.13.x, because it simply is not on the mirrors. Of course are available official 3.5.13.2 packages.
Yes, I know. That is why I am not using it. Lisi
Am Dienstag, 6. Oktober 2015 schrieb Neo Futur:
What are the requirements for a mirror?
High speed internet connection with stable IP or DNS name (and without any data caps), and lots of free disk space ( > 100GB).
if you want one more mirror I ll be happy to provide one, on a dedicated server at online.net, unlimited transit, 100 mb/s, enough diskspace available
Mirrors are synchronised via rsync and accessed over HTTP, so obviously you need to be able to install the relevant software as well.
you mean rsync and a webserver ? what else could be needed ?
Hi all!
all-incl.com just told me that they will not be willing to "donate" 2 TB traffic per month, so there goes my cheep mirror :-(
So, that mirror would be great!
Nik
On Monday 05 October 2015 07:33:12 Timothy Pearson wrote:
The actual TDE repositories are mirrored; you can select a mirror from this list and pretty much ignore the rest of the TDE services if you want to.
https://trinitydesktop.org/mirrorstatus.php
The only caveat is that occasionally we add / lose mirrors (after all, the mirrors are being provided to us on the good will of other people / organisations); you won't receive any notification if a mirror goes down or goes stale.
So we are back where I started: please can someone recommend a mirror. The one I was using is not useful any more, and when I asked for a list of mirrors I was just told to use Tim's repository.
Is anyone happy with his/her mirror? If so, please what is it?
Now Mike has also given me the list of mirrors, which was my original question, I could also just work through them.
But I think that we should recommend a treliable mirror on the main site. We are losing users.
Lisi
On Mon October 5 2015 01:32:50 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Is anyone happy with his/her mirror? If so, please what is it?
The existing mirrors are good with just occasional brief outages for things like security updates. I would suggest using the mirror nearest you.
https://trinitydesktop.org/mirrorstatus.php
If anyone wants to add a full mirror you'll need 165GB right now without nightlies and normally at least 200GB. I operate one of the mirrors with 250GB. Expect 1-2TB per month of downloads and maybe 10% of that for uploads.
The problem is the bandwidth between Tim's build farm and the primary mirror. Increasing the bandwidth would be a significant ongoing expense. Moving the build farm to the "cloud" would be a significant ongoing expense.
When time permits Tim might want to move the web site to a small reliable VPS and perhaps add a DNS redirector to distribute load between the available mirrors.
--Mike
On Monday 05 October 2015 11:39:37 Mike Bird wrote:
On Mon October 5 2015 01:32:50 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Is anyone happy with his/her mirror? If so, please what is it?
The existing mirrors are good with just occasional brief outages for things like security updates. I would suggest using the mirror nearest you.
Thanks, Mike. It was http://mirror.ntmm.org/trinity/ which I had been using and which suddenly became unreliable.
I have no way, that I know of, of knowing which is nearest to me.
I'll just have to try them all until one is OK for a bit.
If anyone wants to add a full mirror you'll need 165GB right now without nightlies and normally at least 200GB. I operate one of the mirrors with 250GB. Expect 1-2TB per month of downloads and maybe 10% of that for uploads.
The problem is the bandwidth between Tim's build farm and the primary mirror. Increasing the bandwidth would be a significant ongoing expense. Moving the build farm to the "cloud" would be a significant ongoing expense.
We need a millionaire, as I said!! Or a good fund raiser and some crowd funding.
When time permits Tim might want to move the web site to a small reliable VPS and perhaps add a DNS redirector to distribute load between the available mirrors.
This is where we need to focus. Webhosts will sometimes host such projects for free. We have a local one which hosts several FLOSS and Linux projects, but the owner doesn't like me so is probably not likely to host TDE for free. But I'll try to get some feelers out.
The reliable bit is crucial. We might even get the chap I mentioned back!
Lisi
--Mike
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On Mon October 5 2015 04:34:20 Lisi Reisz wrote:
I have no way, that I know of, of knowing which is nearest to me.
You could ping each of them and see which has the lowest ping time. Technically there are lots of caveats with that but in practice it works out pretty well.
https://trinitydesktop.org/mirrorstatus.php
FWIW the .de mirror appears to be in Germany, the bg1 mirror appears to be in Bulgaria, the Yosemite mirror is in the US, and the two mirrorservice.org mirrors and the ntmm mirror appear to be in the UK.
--Mike
On Monday 05 October 2015 12:46:37 Mike Bird wrote:
On Mon October 5 2015 04:34:20 Lisi Reisz wrote:
I have no way, that I know of, of knowing which is nearest to me.
You could ping each of them and see which has the lowest ping time. Technically there are lots of caveats with that but in practice it works out pretty well.
https://trinitydesktop.org/mirrorstatus.php
FWIW the .de mirror appears to be in Germany, the bg1 mirror appears to be in Bulgaria, the Yosemite mirror is in the US, and the two mirrorservice.org mirrors and the ntmm mirror appear to be in the UK.
Thanks! D'oh! Yes, .de would be Germany. I hadn't got as far as looking. But I don't see how anything that ends .org can be in the UK???? My knowledge of domains isn't great, however.
I'll try pinging as you suggest.
Lisi
On Monday 05 October 2015 12:46:37 Mike Bird wrote:
On Mon October 5 2015 04:34:20 Lisi Reisz wrote:
I have no way, that I know of, of knowing which is nearest to me.
You could ping each of them and see which has the lowest ping time.
Every one rejects ping. Still, I think I'll use the one I know to be in Europe, http://depot-trinity.dotriver.eu/trinity/ . I used to use it, but stopped for some reason and switched to http://mirror.ntmm.org/trinity/ . I can't remember why.
It isn't just in Europe: it is in France. It may well be my nearest mirror. The nearest point of land in France is about 60 miles away.
Could it be added to the list of mirrors?
I have actually been looking on Google, and both kuiper and copernicus come up as being at the University of Kent. That seems a little strange, to host the mirror twice at Kent University. I'll try those if dotriver isn't satisfactory.
dotriver is in Lyon, which is further from me than Kent (485.6 miles to 117.5 miles), but I still think I'll try it first. I haven't got on well with the University of Kent mirror in the past. If it hosts everything twice, under two different names, that could explain a lot!
Thanks, this has been a most instructive excercise.
Lisi
On Monday 05 October 2015, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Monday 05 October 2015 12:46:37 Mike Bird wrote:
On Mon October 5 2015 04:34:20 Lisi Reisz wrote:
I have no way, that I know of, of knowing which is nearest to me.
You could ping each of them and see which has the lowest ping time.
Every one rejects ping. Still, I think I'll use the one I know to be in Europe, http://depot-trinity.dotriver.eu/trinity/ . I used to use it, but stopped for some reason and switched to
Hi Lisi,
I just realized you have to remove the http:// and file location bits from your ping request e.g.:
ping tde-mirror.yosemite.net ping kuiper.mirrorservice.org
and so on should work.
Gerhard
On Monday 05 October 2015 15:24:35 Gerhard Zintel wrote:
On Monday 05 October 2015, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Monday 05 October 2015 12:46:37 Mike Bird wrote:
On Mon October 5 2015 04:34:20 Lisi Reisz wrote:
I have no way, that I know of, of knowing which is nearest to me.
You could ping each of them and see which has the lowest ping time.
Every one rejects ping. Still, I think I'll use the one I know to be in Europe, http://depot-trinity.dotriver.eu/trinity/ . I used to use it, but stopped for some reason and switched to
Hi Lisi,
I just realized you have to remove the http:// and file location bits from your ping request e.g.:
ping tde-mirror.yosemite.net ping kuiper.mirrorservice.org
and so on should work.
Thanks, Gerhard. That was a big help. It worked for everything but copernicus. So I conclude that copernicus is down or gone.
Lisi
On Mon October 5 2015 17:52:50 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Thanks, Gerhard. That was a big help. It worked for everything but copernicus. So I conclude that copernicus is down or gone.
There are lots of reasons why pings can fail which is why I wrote "Technically there are lots of caveats with that but in practice it works out pretty well." Ping has found you a good mirror - kuiper I believe. However it does not mean that we can conclude that copernicus has a problem.
copernicus.mirrorservice.org is currently responding to ping, http, and rsync. I monitor all the recommended mirrors as does Tim's redirector.
Directly accessing a mirror is a workaround, not a solution, because it doesn't always give you up to date information. The redirector is recommended because, when it is up, it jumps through hoops to get you the up to date information, and without overloading Tim's link when that can be avoided.
It seems that moving the redirector out to a first class data center would be a valuable step when Tim can find the time to do that for us.
--Mike
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA224
On Mon October 5 2015 17:52:50 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Thanks, Gerhard. That was a big help. It worked for everything but copernicus. So I conclude that copernicus is down or gone.
There are lots of reasons why pings can fail which is why I wrote "Technically there are lots of caveats with that but in practice it works out pretty well." Ping has found you a good mirror - kuiper I believe. However it does not mean that we can conclude that copernicus has a problem.
copernicus.mirrorservice.org is currently responding to ping, http, and rsync. I monitor all the recommended mirrors as does Tim's redirector.
Directly accessing a mirror is a workaround, not a solution, because it doesn't always give you up to date information. The redirector is recommended because, when it is up, it jumps through hoops to get you the up to date information, and without overloading Tim's link when that can be avoided.
It seems that moving the redirector out to a first class data center would be a valuable step when Tim can find the time to do that for us.
--Mike
Slavek and I are working on getting this resolved ASAP. This is one of the few areas on the main site that really doesn't need to be on the same systems as the rest of the services, and as such it should be fairly trivial to get a replacement up and running. However, I want to make sure it's done right instead of fast and sloppy, so it might be a little bit before it goes live.
Thank you all for your understanding,
Tim
On Monday 05 of October 2015 13:34:20 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Monday 05 October 2015 11:39:37 Mike Bird wrote:
On Mon October 5 2015 01:32:50 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Is anyone happy with his/her mirror? If so, please what is it?
The existing mirrors are good with just occasional brief outages for things like security updates. I would suggest using the mirror nearest you.
Thanks, Mike. It was http://mirror.ntmm.org/trinity/ which I had been using and which suddenly became unreliable.
I have no way, that I know of, of knowing which is nearest to me.
I'll just have to try them all until one is OK for a bit.
On the list is not stated mirror in France:
http://depot-trinity.dotriver.eu/trinity/
If anyone wants to add a full mirror you'll need 165GB right now without nightlies and normally at least 200GB. I operate one of the mirrors with 250GB. Expect 1-2TB per month of downloads and maybe 10% of that for uploads.
The problem is the bandwidth between Tim's build farm and the primary mirror. Increasing the bandwidth would be a significant ongoing expense. Moving the build farm to the "cloud" would be a significant ongoing expense.
We need a millionaire, as I said!! Or a good fund raiser and some crowd funding.
When time permits Tim might want to move the web site to a small reliable VPS and perhaps add a DNS redirector to distribute load between the available mirrors.
This is where we need to focus. Webhosts will sometimes host such projects for free. We have a local one which hosts several FLOSS and Linux projects, but the owner doesn't like me so is probably not likely to host TDE for free. But I'll try to get some feelers out.
The reliable bit is crucial. We might even get the chap I mentioned back!
Incidentally, vps already available! We got it as a donation from vpsfree.cz. Some time ago here were announced the mirror of GIT repository - it is precisely on this vps:
http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::14614
Currently I discuss with Tim for what additional services the vps will be used. Currently also serves as a mirror of static web pages:
http://mirror.git.trinitydesktop.org/index.php
Lisi
--Mike
On Monday 05 October 2015 07:30:10 Felix Miata wrote:
This sort of begs the question: why isn't TDE mirrored in the places where we get our distributions and updates, major mirrors like kernel.org or gwdg.de or the various universities providing mirroring service? What would it take to make it happen?
Better phrased than my question, but much the same. What can we do to help sort this out? czer.cz works brilliantly and reliably. Can we not get something similar for the rest of the repos? I had thought already of man.ac.uk and ox.ac.uk, both of whom give very good Debian mirrors. And I could ask port.ac.uk, as it is local. Anyone any suggestions as to how to go about it? Or whom else to approach?
Lisi
You could create a mirror on sourceforge which will then mirror to sourceforge's own mirrors.
On 5 October 2015 at 19:39, Lisi Reisz lisi.reisz@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday 05 October 2015 07:30:10 Felix Miata wrote:
This sort of begs the question: why isn't TDE mirrored in the places
where
we get our distributions and updates, major mirrors like kernel.org or gwdg.de or the various universities providing mirroring service? What
would
it take to make it happen?
Better phrased than my question, but much the same. What can we do to help sort this out? czer.cz works brilliantly and reliably. Can we not get something similar for the rest of the repos? I had thought already of man.ac.uk and ox.ac.uk, both of whom give very good Debian mirrors. And I could ask port.ac.uk, as it is local. Anyone any suggestions as to how to go about it? Or whom else to approach?
Lisi
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On Monday 05 October 2015 10:16:49 Michael . wrote:
You could create a mirror on sourceforge which will then mirror to sourceforge's own mirrors.
Ermmm...
We need someone who needs less hand-holding on this. :-(
There is a whole philosophy involved in this.
If we are a small niche hobbyist project, who enjoy talking to each other and our navels and using TDE ourselves, then there isn't really a problem.
If we want to be accepted mainstream at some stage, and Mate and Cinnamon are both now in the Debian installer, this needs solving, and not just for mirrors. The main project page has to give usable advice. Usable every day, not just when the weather in the central United States is good.
<quote> I'm still thinking that LXDE with Kthis and Kthat would probably be quite adequate for me, and would avoid these iffy repositories in Ultima Thule. And it sounded at the bbq as if that was a stumbling block for getting Ian on board as well. </quote>
He installs for a lot of people. As does "Ian". He loved TDE. It was just what he was looking for. We are losing the battle. That is fine, if that is what we want.
Tim, I am really grateful for what you do and have done. Without you TDE would not and could not exist. And we must clearly try to fund you better.
But that is not the answer if TDE is to grow, and even survive. It cannot grow without a different, _larger_ and more reliable (as in weather and infrastructure) host.
Lisi
Do you know how MATE and Cinnamon were able to get into Debian's official repositories?
In case you don't let me clarify the MATE situation for you. When MATE initially asked to be accepted into Debian's official repositories it come up against alot of negativity. What was the negativity about? MATE was based on the old Gnome 2.32, it used old Gnome technology, it doubled up on many Gnome things, and it was believed it would take Debian backwards because Debian would have to bring back old technology (GTK2, corba, etc). The MATE devs (and this is one difference between MATE and Trinity because Trinity has 3 people actively working on it MATE has 12) worked to bring MATE up to date with new technology. MATE is also a much smaller DE than Trinity (Trinity has everything excluding the kitchen sink, MATE has the basics of a modern DE). In other words Debian wouldn't have accepted MATE with old technologies in it. Another point is the doubling up, MATE actually doubled up alot of Gnome's behind the screen technology. Trinity has applications that are not just doubling up they even have the same name as KDE programs. MATE totally renamed each and every piece of Gnome 2.32 they forked, Trinity hasn't.
Old technology Qt3 (which is now Tqt) and doubling up of applications. I can't see Debian accepting Trinity (even though it is a great full featured DE) for these 2 reasons. I applaud TIm and crew for their hard work in keeping a great DE alive. I would suggest that people who are vocal (militantly vocal?) about keeping TDE alive start thinking about how others have been able to do this and emulate their work. Don't just go over the same old points actually do some research and offer suggestions.
BTW MATE is hosted by First Colo (which I think is a German company). Methinks Trinity could fix at least one problem by finding a corporate sponsor for hosting. Do you think Blue Systems (I think they are German as well) who sponsor some KDE based projects (Kubuntu being one of them I think) would be interested?
On 5 October 2015 at 20:44, Lisi Reisz lisi.reisz@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday 05 October 2015 10:16:49 Michael . wrote:
You could create a mirror on sourceforge which will then mirror to sourceforge's own mirrors.
Ermmm...
We need someone who needs less hand-holding on this. :-(
There is a whole philosophy involved in this.
If we are a small niche hobbyist project, who enjoy talking to each other and our navels and using TDE ourselves, then there isn't really a problem.
If we want to be accepted mainstream at some stage, and Mate and Cinnamon are both now in the Debian installer, this needs solving, and not just for mirrors. The main project page has to give usable advice. Usable every day, not just when the weather in the central United States is good.
<quote> I'm still thinking that LXDE with Kthis and Kthat would probably be quite adequate for me, and would avoid these iffy repositories in Ultima Thule. And it sounded at the bbq as if that was a stumbling block for getting Ian on board as well. </quote>
He installs for a lot of people. As does "Ian". He loved TDE. It was just what he was looking for. We are losing the battle. That is fine, if that is what we want.
Tim, I am really grateful for what you do and have done. Without you TDE would not and could not exist. And we must clearly try to fund you better.
But that is not the answer if TDE is to grow, and even survive. It cannot grow without a different, _larger_ and more reliable (as in weather and infrastructure) host.
Lisi
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On Tuesday 06 October 2015 10:11:16 Michael . wrote:
BTW MATE is hosted by First Colo (which I think is a German company). Methinks Trinity could fix at least one problem by finding a corporate sponsor for hosting. Do you think Blue Systems (I think they are German as well) who sponsor some KDE based projects (Kubuntu being one of them I think) would be interested?
This is what I what trying to suggest, though my one specific idea would actually be likely to refuse. I'll ask for ideas.
But I'm not sure that my finding a sponsor would be welcome. My previous suggestions that I could try to do that have not been well received.
So - if I were to succeed in finding a pro bono host would it just get brickbats? Would everyone prefer me to just keep quiet?
Lisi
Personally I think you have gone about this entire thing the wrong way. 2 threads on the same topic is over the top. To me it looks like you are being aggressive (did you notice in my previous message I said militant?) Ideas are great, harping on about the same things over and over till people are frustrated with you and threatening to stop proselyting looks like a temper tantrum. You are not the only one who wants TDE to succeed. Put your emotions aside (I've said similar things to you before) and you may find your audience will be more willing to listen to you.
On 6 October 2015 at 23:20, Lisi Reisz lisi.reisz@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 10:11:16 Michael . wrote:
BTW MATE is hosted by First Colo (which I think is a German company). Methinks Trinity could fix at least one problem by finding a corporate sponsor for hosting. Do you think Blue Systems (I think they are German
as
well) who sponsor some KDE based projects (Kubuntu being one of them I think) would be interested?
This is what I what trying to suggest, though my one specific idea would actually be likely to refuse. I'll ask for ideas.
But I'm not sure that my finding a sponsor would be welcome. My previous suggestions that I could try to do that have not been well received.
So - if I were to succeed in finding a pro bono host would it just get brickbats? Would everyone prefer me to just keep quiet?
Lisi
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Personally I think you have gone about this entire thing the wrong way. 2 threads on the same topic is over the top. To me it looks like you are being aggressive (did you notice in my previous message I said militant?) Ideas are great, harping on about the same things over and over till people are frustrated with you and threatening to stop proselyting looks like a temper tantrum. You are not the only one who wants TDE to succeed. Put your emotions aside (I've said similar things to you before) and you may find your audience will be more willing to listen to you.
On 6 October 2015 at 23:20, Lisi Reisz lisi.reisz@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 10:11:16 Michael . wrote:
BTW MATE is hosted by First Colo (which I think is a German company). Methinks Trinity could fix at least one problem by finding a corporate sponsor for hosting. Do you think Blue Systems (I think they are
German as
well) who sponsor some KDE based projects (Kubuntu being one of them I think) would be interested?
This is what I what trying to suggest, though my one specific idea would actually be likely to refuse. I'll ask for ideas.
But I'm not sure that my finding a sponsor would be welcome. My previous suggestions that I could try to do that have not been well received.
So - if I were to succeed in finding a pro bono host would it just get brickbats? Would everyone prefer me to just keep quiet?
Lisi
And to chime in on Lisi's offer -- no, finding a free host isn't going to help the situation. As you can see from other messages on the list most free services aren't going to be very happy sinking the thousands of dollars per year required to keep even part of the TDE services up and running, not to mention the extra maintenance overhead (i.e. time I don't have to actually work on writing TDE or pulling in a paycheck to live) incurred by decoupling services and spreading them out everywhere.
Slavek and I are already working on moving a few smaller services to a European host. This should alleviate most of the end-user visible difficulties until the main datacenter can be moved.
Tim
On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 08:16:49PM +1100, Michael . wrote:
You could create a mirror on sourceforge which will then mirror to sourceforge's own mirrors.
Please don't use sourceforge. Don't download from them, and don't upload from them. They have been caught bundling malware with downloads, repeatedly since 2013, and hijacking accounts.
http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from...
Sourceforge can no longer be trusted.
Sorry Steven you obviously don't understand how an apt repository works.I have a repo on sourceforge and only what I put in there is in there. Using apt it checks packages files, which I create with reprepro on my own machine at home, and you can only get what is listed in my repository. Sourceforge has not added anything, nor can they, to my repo and if they did it would not be signed and that should immediately ring alarm bells.
On 5 October 2015 at 21:17, Steven D'Aprano steve@pearwood.info wrote:
On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 08:16:49PM +1100, Michael . wrote:
You could create a mirror on sourceforge which will then mirror to sourceforge's own mirrors.
Please don't use sourceforge. Don't download from them, and don't upload from them. They have been caught bundling malware with downloads, repeatedly since 2013, and hijacking accounts.
http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from...
Sourceforge can no longer be trusted.
-- Steve
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Sorry Steven you obviously don't understand how an apt repository works.I have a repo on sourceforge and only what I put in there is in there. Using apt it checks packages files, which I create with reprepro on my own machine at home, and you can only get what is listed in my repository. Sourceforge has not added anything, nor can they, to my repo and if they did it would not be signed and that should immediately ring alarm bells.
I think it's more of an issue with supporting a site with a known malware-based business model than anything else. Yes, I could cryptographically secure downloads from spam-are-us.net, but would that: a.) hurt TDE's reputation? b.) open users to potential attack if they ignore a single warning message? c.) help spam-are-us.net advertise their malware?
If the answer is yes to any of the above it isn't a good idea to use the service ;-)
Tim
On Monday 05 October 2015 05:16:49 Michael . wrote:
You could create a mirror on sourceforge which will then mirror to sourceforge's own mirrors.
That has its caveats, check S-F's TOS. There are many who disagree with their TOS. And their restoration performance after that last failure can only be described as sucking dead taods thru soda straws. Almost 2 weeks to get everything back, and what was restored, was restored to dated versions because they don't use amanda for backups. I do, so my restores would be to that state it was in at nominally 1:00 am each night.
My bandwidth is only 10 megabaud, small town West Virginia location, and extra charges start at 300 Gb/month. And I already keep a reasonably up to date repo for a 33 yo legacy computer and whose main repo is on S-F. I have preached to move it, but my thought have been ignored.
My usage, keeping 5 machines, 4 running a pinned wheezy and a lappy running some sort of xfce/ubuntu fairly up to date, was about 60Gb last month.
I am on a fixed income (SS) and would not like to see the extra charges kick in, but if it could be capped at say 220Gb/month, I could donate some bandwidth if that small a pipe would be usable.
I for one am pretty happy with TDE, and if Timothy had a paypal account for donations, I would feel that an annual donation is a reasonable way to help compensate Timothy, or Zack or both meet maintenance expenses.
The operative word here is TANSTAAFL. And I dislike wearing the leech label, which I am being right now as far as TDE is concerned. So within reason as a single user, a fee donation request via paypal sure seems like a suitable way to help. $10/mo I could afford. I have no clue how many users there are, but if half of those pleased kicked in annually, fresh hardware money should be sitting there drawing meager interest till needed.
Your calls, both of you. Speak up.
On 5 October 2015 at 19:39, Lisi Reisz lisi.reisz@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday 05 October 2015 07:30:10 Felix Miata wrote:
This sort of begs the question: why isn't TDE mirrored in the places
where
we get our distributions and updates, major mirrors like kernel.org or gwdg.de or the various universities providing mirroring service? What
would
it take to make it happen?
Better phrased than my question, but much the same. What can we do to help sort this out? czer.cz works brilliantly and reliably. Can we not get something similar for the rest of the repos? I had thought already of man.ac.uk and ox.ac.uk, both of whom give very good Debian mirrors. And I could ask port.ac.uk, as it is local. Anyone any suggestions as to how to go about it? Or whom else to approach?
Lisi
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
On Monday 05 October 2015 12:16:16 Gene Heskett wrote:
I for one am pretty happy with TDE, and if Timothy had a paypal account for donations, I would feel that an annual donation is a reasonable way to help compensate Timothy, or Zack or both meet maintenance expenses.
The operative word here is TANSTAAFL. And I dislike wearing the leech label, which I am being right now as far as TDE is concerned. So within reason as a single user, a fee donation request via paypal sure seems like a suitable way to help. $10/mo I could afford. I have no clue how many users there are, but if half of those pleased kicked in annually, fresh hardware money should be sitting there drawing meager interest till needed.
Your calls, both of you. Speak up.
I do give to the project via Paypal whenever there is a request and an offered link. Probably not enough, but nothing is. Your idea is a good one.
It can help solve the hardware. But it doesn't solve the US weather. The website could do with being somewhere more reliable.
I was on a severely delayed train recently with a chap who lives in Silicone Valley but has previously lived outside the USA. We chatted. He said that the reliability of his access to the Internet would make those of us who complain here weep. He said that near Google isn't bad because they see to it, but even there it isn't great.
If this is to be genuinely world-wide it needs to be reliable. Like Slávek's. Perhaps we need to get it hosted in Norway or South Korea!
Lisi
On 5 October 2015 at 19:39, Lisi Reisz lisi.reisz@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday 05 October 2015 07:30:10 Felix Miata wrote:
This sort of begs the question: why isn't TDE mirrored in the places
where
we get our distributions and updates, major mirrors like kernel.org or gwdg.de or the various universities providing mirroring service? What
would
it take to make it happen?
Better phrased than my question, but much the same. What can we do to help sort this out? czer.cz works brilliantly and reliably. Can we not get something similar for the rest of the repos? I had thought already of man.ac.uk and ox.ac.uk, both of whom give very good Debian mirrors. And I could ask port.ac.uk, as it is local. Anyone any suggestions as to how to go about it? Or whom else to approach?
Lisi
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
On Monday 05 October 2015 12:52:42 Lisi Reisz wrote:
He said that the reliability of his access to the Internet would make those of us who complain here weep.
That is ambiguous. Would make those of us, who even complain here, weep with frustration at its unreliability.
Lisi
On Monday 05 October 2015 06:40:10 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Please bear in mind that the TDE services are sustained almost wholly on my financial contributions, as there have been very very few donations for the past year or more. As a result uptime suffers somewhat. ;-)
Hence my comment about millionaires.
Lisi
On Saturday 03 of October 2015 17:09:27 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Saturday 03 October 2015 00:28:39 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Friday 02 of October 2015 19:47:11 Lisi Reisz wrote:
I have just tried to install TDE, but have been told that Slávek's repository is not accessible. ??? I'll try Tim's for now.
Lisi
Now I tried it and the web server appears to be normally available. I tested the availability of packages for Jessie and apt source seems to be fine.
Yes, Slávek, I'm sorry. I managed to install with Tim's repositories, and, once I could see a bit, there was a comma instead of a full stop at one point in your repository in my sorces.list. I had checked and checked it, but i just couldn't see it!! :-(
I was lucky that Tim's was OK. It very rarely is. It is inaccessible again this morning.
This is an ongoing problem that I have with spreading the word about TDE. Tim's repository is almost normally not available for us (in England? On the South Coast? Everyone I know who tries to use TDE!), and it is hard to find anything else to use. When I asked recently I was told just to use Tim's and it would chose the best mirror. That is no use if Tim's is unavailable.
I always say just to use Slávek's. Yesterday was the first time that Slávek's has appeared to be unavailable, and in fact it was. It is very reliable, but hard to find for someone happening on the website.
The error message that I am currently getting (it has been alright on this particular computer for the last few days since I set it up when I wrote the other day and asked about mirrors) is under my signature.
Can we at least localise this problem. It has been there ever since I have been using TDE and makes installing TDE difficult. Does it apply anywhere other than the south of England? Once we have localised it, can someone help me solve it? Perhaps we need to find a main mirror this side of the Atlantic.
And meanwhile what mirror does anyone other than Mike (thanks for your advice, Mike, when I asked a week ago. But as you can see it hasn't helped) suggest for 3.5.13.2 now I can't use a nice reliable Slávek one for it? I currently can't connect to the web archive (I was going to link to my email about this of a week ago) so you won't even get this for a bit!
One person, who sets computers up for "old people" and decided that Unity was too resource hungry for old computers, has abandoned TDE (which was front runner) in favour of LXDE largely because of this problem. It is really very tedious to be unable to install/update time after time while you wait for whatever gremlin is amusing himself to go away. I just said to use Slávek's repository, but he very reasonably pointed out that it doesn't say so here:
I was going to link to the page on how to get TDE. It is unavailable. There is obviously a larger problem at the moment. But the update problem is ongoing.
There must be a reliable mirror somewhere that can be reached from England. If not, give me a mentor who will help with advice, because I don't know where or how to start, and I'll try to find you one. And anyhow I'll start asking people how to do it.
The best, of course, would be to be in Debian's repostitories, but we haven't the resources for that. :-(
Perhaps we are just too small and need to find a millionnaire?
Lisi Error message for update: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/d ists/wheezy/Release.gpg: Could not connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:80 (192.119.205.243). - connect (113: No route to host) W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.1 3/debian/dists/wheezy/Release.gpg: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/d ists/wheezy/main/i18n/Translation-en_GB: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/d ists/wheezy/main/i18n/Translation-en: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.1 3/debian/dists/wheezy/main/i18n/Translation-en_GB: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.1 3/debian/dists/wheezy/main/i18n/Translation-en: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/d ists/wheezy/main/binary-amd64/Packages: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/d ists/wheezy/main/binary-i386/Packages: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.1 3/debian/dists/wheezy/main/binary-amd64/Packages: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.1 3/debian/dists/wheezy/main/binary-i386/Packages: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: E: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead. E: Couldn't rebuild package cache
Sorry, I did not realize that you do not have in mind the Preliminary stable builds, but my 3.5.13.x repository on the PPA. Unfortunately it is not available on mirrors. However, it is very consistent with the final 3.5.13.2, which is available on the official mirrors.
...so the problem comes back to the unavailable of primary server during the weekend and discussion about vps.
On Mon October 5 2015 11:59:49 Slávek Banko wrote:
...so the problem comes back to the unavailable of primary server during the weekend and discussion about vps.
VPSs come with a wide range or prices and a wide range of reliabilities and levels of security.
I operate one of TDE's mirrors. It needs a lot of disk space and a lot of bandwidth but it does not need exceptional uptime guarantees and I don't need to run background checks on the host's sysadmins. So I use a reasonably inexpensive VPS for that.
At the other end of the spectrum my business's main server is on a Linode with exceptional toolset, reliability, security, and price.
Other services are similarly hosted on VPSs or real servers either in house or at various price points in major data centers.
Without wishing to cast any aspersions on vpsfree.cz or anybody else, some of the functions currently hosted by Tim do need significant reliability and security.
--Mike
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On Mon October 5 2015 11:59:49 Slávek Banko wrote:
...so the problem comes back to the unavailable of primary server during the weekend and discussion about vps.
VPSs come with a wide range or prices and a wide range of reliabilities and levels of security.
I operate one of TDE's mirrors. It needs a lot of disk space and a lot of bandwidth but it does not need exceptional uptime guarantees and I don't need to run background checks on the host's sysadmins. So I use a reasonably inexpensive VPS for that.
At the other end of the spectrum my business's main server is on a Linode with exceptional toolset, reliability, security, and price.
Other services are similarly hosted on VPSs or real servers either in house or at various price points in major data centers.
Without wishing to cast any aspersions on vpsfree.cz or anybody else, some of the functions currently hosted by Tim do need significant reliability and security.
--Mike
I would like to add briefly that the main TDE servers themselves have an uptime of over 99% including downtime for upgrades, etc.; what is continually failing (and will require a physical move to correct) is the connection between the Internet and those servers. While I know many TDE users are from Europe, and therefore are used to much higher levels of service (and much higher penetration of decent service levels), the TDE project is based in the United States. Over here, high speed and high reliability Internet service is simply unavailable in many locations.
Trust me when I say the poor service is impacting the profitable end of the business co-located with the TDE servers, and as such the entire datacenter is scheduled to be physically moved to a location with much better service in the next 3 - 6 months. As you can imagine, a move of this scale takes time; it has been in the planning phase for over 6 months now.
Thank you for your patience and understanding!
Tim
On Monday 05 October 2015 21:12:12 Timothy Pearson wrote:
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On Mon October 5 2015 11:59:49 Slávek Banko wrote:
...so the problem comes back to the unavailable of primary server during the weekend and discussion about vps.
VPSs come with a wide range or prices and a wide range of reliabilities and levels of security.
I operate one of TDE's mirrors. It needs a lot of disk space and a lot of bandwidth but it does not need exceptional uptime guarantees and I don't need to run background checks on the host's sysadmins. So I use a reasonably inexpensive VPS for that.
At the other end of the spectrum my business's main server is on a Linode with exceptional toolset, reliability, security, and price.
Other services are similarly hosted on VPSs or real servers either in house or at various price points in major data centers.
Without wishing to cast any aspersions on vpsfree.cz or anybody else, some of the functions currently hosted by Tim do need significant reliability and security.
--Mike
I would like to add briefly that the main TDE servers themselves have an uptime of over 99% including downtime for upgrades, etc.;
Yes, that has been evident. It was you who raised this particular red-herring. When there is a problem I blame global warming, hurricanes, storms, tornadoes, gremlins, a staggeringly unreliable electricity infrastructure - but not poor maintenance.
what is continually failing (and will require a physical move to correct) is the connection between the Internet and those servers.
Again, that has been evident. See my rant that I just posted!
While I know many TDE users are from Europe, and therefore are used to much higher levels of service (and much higher penetration of decent service levels), the TDE project is based in the United States. Over here, high speed and high reliability Internet service is simply unavailable in many locations.
Yes, we know that.
Trust me when I say the poor service is impacting the profitable end of the business co-located with the TDE servers,
Of course! The chap I have mentioned several times and I discussed how on earth you manage to run a server farm under such awful conditions.
and as such the entire datacenter is scheduled to be physically moved to a location with much better service in the next 3 - 6 months. As you can imagine, a move of this scale takes time; it has been in the planning phase for over 6 months now.
Yes, that is obviously major.
Thank you for your patience and understanding!
Understanding, yes. I am and always have been very grateful for the time and effort you and the others have put in. And very, very grateful to you for having rescued KDE3 in the first place. And am also very patient if e.g. bugs take a while to fix. Or things don't come out (get released) fast.
Patience with this, no. It must be possible to host all the public facing stuff in a country with a decent internet infrastructure. And we must between us be able to make it happen.
Otherwise it will remain a local, small project. I cannot persuade numbers of non-biased people with lives to lead, that they want to use TDE so much that they will put up with the present situation. I tried to persuade the chap I have mentioned. I failed. And he _loved_ TDE. I have endless problems with it myself. And that was large numbers of users. So depressing.
So - is TDE a local, United States project that a few foreigners are allowed to tap in to? Or is it an international one? That's come out a bit provocative, and I don't mean it to be. But it cannot be both international and unreliable because people just won't wear it. _I_ got upset and frustrated. And I'll do almost anything to be able to go on using TDE. (It didn't help that things were made a lot worse because I was installing Jessie not Wheezy, but that is another story. systemd related, though probably not systemd itself.)
If it is a localised United States project, then we hangers on will hang on and be grateful - and I'll consciously stop proselytising. But may we have a "ruling" on this.
Lisi
On Monday 05 October 2015 20:55:57 Mike Bird wrote:
On Mon October 5 2015 11:59:49 Slávek Banko wrote:
...so the problem comes back to the unavailable of primary server during the weekend and discussion about vps.
VPSs come with a wide range or prices and a wide range of reliabilities and levels of security.
I operate one of TDE's mirrors. It needs a lot of disk space and a lot of bandwidth but it does not need exceptional uptime guarantees
There we have it. The powers that be in TDE think that mirrors needn't be reliable. And they aren't.
[snip]
Without wishing to cast any aspersions on vpsfree.cz or anybody else, some of the functions currently hosted by Tim do need significant reliability and security.
Security they probably have chez Tim. But reliability? I don't see how vpsfree.cz could possibly be any worse. .cz isn't in the USA so it's likely to be up more of the time.
Lisi
On Mon October 5 2015 13:52:12 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Monday 05 October 2015 20:55:57 Mike Bird wrote:
I operate one of TDE's mirrors. It needs a lot of disk space and a lot of bandwidth but it does not need exceptional uptime guarantees
There we have it. The powers that be in TDE think that mirrors needn't be reliable. And they aren't.
Do you find Google unreliable? Amazon? Ebay? They're all designed with redundant servers so that if one or a dozen die everything just keeps chugging along just fine.
With so many identical mirrors available, why do you think the project should pay extra for unnecessary reliability when whatever money there is could be better spent on more pressing priorities?
The point where more reliability is needed is the redirector, whether it be at http or DNS level, which selects among the available mirrors. Or in this case, the connection to said redirector, which Tim already has plans in progress to address.
--Mike
On Monday 05 October 2015 19:59:49 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Saturday 03 of October 2015 17:09:27 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Saturday 03 October 2015 00:28:39 Slávek Banko wrote:
On Friday 02 of October 2015 19:47:11 Lisi Reisz wrote:
I have just tried to install TDE, but have been told that Slávek's repository is not accessible. ??? I'll try Tim's for now.
Lisi
Now I tried it and the web server appears to be normally available. I tested the availability of packages for Jessie and apt source seems to be fine.
Yes, Slávek, I'm sorry. I managed to install with Tim's repositories, and, once I could see a bit, there was a comma instead of a full stop at one point in your repository in my sorces.list. I had checked and checked it, but i just couldn't see it!! :-(
I was lucky that Tim's was OK. It very rarely is. It is inaccessible again this morning.
This is an ongoing problem that I have with spreading the word about TDE. Tim's repository is almost normally not available for us (in England? On the South Coast? Everyone I know who tries to use TDE!), and it is hard to find anything else to use. When I asked recently I was told just to use Tim's and it would chose the best mirror. That is no use if Tim's is unavailable.
I always say just to use Slávek's. Yesterday was the first time that Slávek's has appeared to be unavailable, and in fact it was. It is very reliable, but hard to find for someone happening on the website.
The error message that I am currently getting (it has been alright on this particular computer for the last few days since I set it up when I wrote the other day and asked about mirrors) is under my signature.
Can we at least localise this problem. It has been there ever since I have been using TDE and makes installing TDE difficult. Does it apply anywhere other than the south of England? Once we have localised it, can someone help me solve it? Perhaps we need to find a main mirror this side of the Atlantic.
And meanwhile what mirror does anyone other than Mike (thanks for your advice, Mike, when I asked a week ago. But as you can see it hasn't helped) suggest for 3.5.13.2 now I can't use a nice reliable Slávek one for it? I currently can't connect to the web archive (I was going to link to my email about this of a week ago) so you won't even get this for a bit!
One person, who sets computers up for "old people" and decided that Unity was too resource hungry for old computers, has abandoned TDE (which was front runner) in favour of LXDE largely because of this problem. It is really very tedious to be unable to install/update time after time while you wait for whatever gremlin is amusing himself to go away. I just said to use Slávek's repository, but he very reasonably pointed out that it doesn't say so here:
I was going to link to the page on how to get TDE. It is unavailable. There is obviously a larger problem at the moment. But the update problem is ongoing.
There must be a reliable mirror somewhere that can be reached from England. If not, give me a mentor who will help with advice, because I don't know where or how to start, and I'll try to find you one. And anyhow I'll start asking people how to do it.
The best, of course, would be to be in Debian's repostitories, but we haven't the resources for that. :-(
Perhaps we are just too small and need to find a millionnaire?
Lisi Error message for update: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian /d ists/wheezy/Release.gpg: Could not connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:80 (192.119.205.243). - connect (113: No route to host) W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5 .1 3/debian/dists/wheezy/Release.gpg: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian /d ists/wheezy/main/i18n/Translation-en_GB: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian /d ists/wheezy/main/i18n/Translation-en: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5 .1 3/debian/dists/wheezy/main/i18n/Translation-en_GB: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5 .1 3/debian/dists/wheezy/main/i18n/Translation-en: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian /d ists/wheezy/main/binary-amd64/Packages: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian /d ists/wheezy/main/binary-i386/Packages: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5 .1 3/debian/dists/wheezy/main/binary-amd64/Packages: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: W: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5 .1 3/debian/dists/wheezy/main/binary-i386/Packages: Unable to connect to ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net:http: E: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead. E: Couldn't rebuild package cache
Sorry, I did not realize that you do not have in mind the Preliminary stable builds, but my 3.5.13.x repository on the PPA. Unfortunately it is not available on mirrors. However, it is very consistent with the final 3.5.13.2, which is available on the official mirrors.
...so the problem comes back to the unavailable of primary server during the weekend and discussion about vps.
No, there are two issues here, whicxh I confused because I was getting so frustrated..
Your prelimuinary stable builds which I was trying to install and couldn't. That turned out to be because I had mistyped and couldn't see. Your repositiory is completely reliable. On that occasion luckily Tim's was working.
But you only have a repository for r14. You no longer have one for 3.5.13 because it is no longer being worked on. So there is not a reliable source for it.
Having had a very frustrating time trying to install r14 on a new install, when I finally succeeded I went to bed. But next morning I came to update my desktop - 3.5.13.2 - and couldn't. See the error message above. I am trying to proseletise TDE, but I can't when installation and updating are so horribly unreliable. I convert people, and they say how lovely it is. Start using it. Hit problems installing and updating and run away again.
The over-riding problem is that only you have ever run a reliable repository ever since I have used TDE.
And we keep being directed to the pearson computing site because it will direct us to the best mirror, but it doesn't. How the United States lives with its rotten infrastructure beats me. I suppose it is used to it, as we are to our overcrowded roads and ancient train system.
Google doesn't attempt to rely on the States:
<quote> Google data center locations. If you include data centers that are under construction, Google has 19 locations in the US where they operate data centers, 12 in Europe, one in Russia, one in South America, and three in Asia. </quote>
Please, please, please can the main public facing stuff be somewhere else?
Lisi
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Having had a very frustrating time trying to install r14 on a new install, when I finally succeeded I went to bed. But next morning I came to update my desktop - 3.5.13.2 - and couldn't. See the error message above. I am trying to proseletise TDE, but I can't when installation and updating are so horribly unreliable. I convert people, and they say how lovely it is. Start using it. Hit problems installing and updating and run away again.
The over-riding problem is that only you have ever run a reliable repository ever since I have used TDE.
In that case why don't you simply pick a mirror and use it? From what you are saying any of the mirrors would be infinitely more reliable than the main site, so I would strongly suggest doing so.
And we keep being directed to the pearson computing site because it will direct us to the best mirror, but it doesn't. How the United States lives with its rotten infrastructure beats me. I suppose it is used to it, as we are to our overcrowded roads and ancient train system.
Well, our roads are crumbling and our train system is truly ancient, not to mention our atrocious public transport (where you take your life in your hands just to travel). What's really frustrating is the lack of proper Internet service on top of all that.
Google doesn't attempt to rely on the States:
<quote> Google data center locations. If you include data centers that are under construction, Google has 19 locations in the US where they operate data centers, 12 in Europe, one in Russia, one in South America, and three in Asia. </quote>
Google is a multi-billion dollar business that makes money off of selling your private data to third parties. Are you saying I can start selling any data I glean from your private systems for my own profit? (NOTE: I don't do that, and in fact technically _can't_ do that, however the point on the differing business models is very real and valid.) There is a BIG difference between grassroots open source (as TDE is) and large corporation-sponsored "open source" -- the latter works very rarely in the public interest, and at least in the US is almost always funded by some not so savory business practices. Even the Linux kernel has some issues due to its corporate sponsorship; it will never be relicensed as GPLv3 even though over time it is expected that most people will lose the ability to modify the kernel running on their systems as a result. Scary stuff!
Please, please, please can the main public facing stuff be somewhere else?
If you read my prior Email you would know that it _will_ be placed somewhere else, in 3 - 6 months. In the meantime Slavek and I are working on a way to mitigate the access issues for certain services, although this is being done at the expense of security (watch your apt-get output carefully everyone, and make sure the GPG keys are valid....)
Tim
On Monday 05 October 2015 22:11:47 Timothy Pearson wrote:
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Having had a very frustrating time trying to install r14 on a new install, when I finally succeeded I went to bed. But next morning I came to update my desktop - 3.5.13.2 - and couldn't. See the error message above. I am trying to proseletise TDE, but I can't when installation and updating are so horribly unreliable. I convert people, and they say how lovely it is. Start using it. Hit problems installing and updating and run away again.
The over-riding problem is that only you have ever run a reliable repository ever since I have used TDE.
In that case why don't you simply pick a mirror and use it? From what you are saying any of the mirrors would be infinitely more reliable than the main site, so I would strongly suggest doing so.
That is what I have always done and is where we came in. The mirror I had used for some time had become unreliable and I was looking to change. I asked on the list about mirrors and Mike said that I should use the redirector. I have now (after the recent conversation about how to chose a mirror) reset my sources.list to use a named mirror. So I was only off a named site for six days.
But that is not what your site says to do, and I did not find the mirrors easy to find. So it doesn't help with converts.
And we keep being directed to the pearson computing site because it will direct us to the best mirror, but it doesn't. How the United States lives with its rotten infrastructure beats me. I suppose it is used to it, as we are to our overcrowded roads and ancient train system.
Well, our roads are crumbling and our train system is truly ancient, not to mention our atrocious public transport (where you take your life in your hands just to travel). What's really frustrating is the lack of proper Internet service on top of all that.
_And_ you get bad weather. :-(
Google doesn't attempt to rely on the States:
<quote> Google data center locations. If you include data centers that are under construction, Google has 19 locations in the US where they operate data centers, 12 in Europe, one in Russia, one in South America, and three in Asia. </quote>
Google is a multi-billion dollar business that makes money off of selling your private data to third parties. Are you saying I can start selling any data I glean from your private systems for my own profit? (NOTE: I don't do that, and in fact technically _can't_ do that, however the point on the differing business models is very real and valid.) There is a BIG difference between grassroots open source (as TDE is) and large corporation-sponsored "open source" -- the latter works very rarely in the public interest, and at least in the US is almost always funded by some not so savory business practices. Even the Linux kernel has some issues due to its corporate sponsorship; it will never be relicensed as GPLv3 even though over time it is expected that most people will lose the ability to modify the kernel running on their systems as a result. Scary stuff!
Yes, that is all valid. I was making one point only - that servers based in the United States are unreliable. Not that Google is a model to copy.
Please, please, please can the main public facing stuff be somewhere else?
If you read my prior Email you would know that it _will_ be placed somewhere else, in 3 - 6 months.
No, I meant somewhere outside the United States. Though any improvement is greatly welcomed.
In the meantime Slavek and I are working on a way to mitigate the access issues for certain services, although this is being done at the expense of security (watch your apt-get output carefully everyone, and make sure the GPG keys are valid....)
So can they at least please be on reliable servers? And could you spoon-feed us and give us actual addresses?
Thank you for everything you do, Tim. I'm sorry that I can't help more. But it is not obvious to me what I could do. Proselytising is obviously counter-productive. And I help on the list where I can, but that isn't much.
Lisi
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On Mon October 5 2015 14:40:18 Lisi Reisz wrote:
That is what I have always done and is where we came in. The mirror I had used for some time had become unreliable and I was looking to change. I asked on the list about mirrors and Mike said that I should use the redirector. I have now (after the recent conversation about how to chose a mirror) reset my sources.list to use a named mirror. So I was only off a named site for six days.
The redirector is still the correct official answer because you can encounter inconsistencies or out of date information on mirrors. But until the redirector can be moved to a first class data center we maybe should reconsider that official answer.
OTOH IIRC you have just chosen a mirror which is not on Tim's recommended list and which is currently two days out of date.
In your location I would use one of the mirrorservice.org mirrors as they are capably administered by the University of Kent.
--Mike
On Monday 05 October 2015 22:57:38 Mike Bird wrote:
OTOH IIRC you have just chosen a mirror which is not on Tim's recommended list and which is currently two days out of date.
In your location I would use one of the mirrorservice.org mirrors as they are capably administered by the University of Kent.
One of those is down. Permanently?? I have in the past found the University of Kent mirror rather unreliable, but I had in fact already decided to give the one that is up (kuiper) a chance. Just pinging mirrorservice.org was slower than pinging dotriver.eu. But kuiper.mirrorservice.org was noticably quicker. Kent being inconsistent or a real difference?
A pity you couldn't comment earlier. And if you knew that the two Kent ones were in Kent, you could have said so, especially if you consider them capably administered - something I was specifically asking about. You have been unwilling to give a recommendation, so I had to use a pin.
I like France, and its infrastructure, which is far better and more reliable than ours, so I chose France. Especially as it was suggested by Slávek and I have always found Slávek's advice extremely reliable.
Apparently the pin was not successful. That was why I asked in the first place.
Lisi
On Mon October 5 2015 13:46:20 Lisi Reisz wrote:
Google data center locations. If you include data centers that are under construction, Google has 19 locations in the US where they operate data centers, 12 in Europe, one in Russia, one in South America, and three in Asia.
Google has a majority of its data centers in the US where there is just about 5% of the world's population. And fewer data centers in Europe where there is more than twice the population.
Google is heavily biased toward US infrastructure because US data centers are very high quality and very well connected. (And currently NSA while awful is nowhere near as out of control as GCHQ.)
Please, please, please can the main public facing stuff be somewhere else?
I've spent half of my life in the UK and half in the US. I seriously doubt that US DSL connections are significantly less reliable than UK DSL connections. Generally more expensive, but not much difference in reliability.
However DSL and Cable connections are no patch on DS1 and DS3 lines.
And those can't hold a candle to a properly designed data center, which is probably where one or two key bits of TDE need to be. But there's no reason at all to move those bits to Europe.
--Mike
On Monday 05 October 2015 22:28:58 Mike Bird wrote:
I've spent half of my life in the UK and half in the US.
I don't see the relevance of that. DSL isn't very old, so it makes a difference which half and how old you are. You may have no experience at all of DSL in the UK. Besides, DSL is totally irrelevant.
I seriously doubt that US DSL connections are significantly less reliable than UK DSL connections. Generally more expensive, but not much difference in reliability.
I answered that, then deleted it because I realised that it is completely irrelevant.
If you think in terms of DSL in this context, then you have encapsulated the problem, and no wonder there are problems. It is the 21st Century now, not the 20th. Is Tim on DSL? How on earth does he manage a modern server farm on DSL???? With difficulty would seem to be the answer. DSL is slow and unreliable. We have the answer.
Lisi
On Mon October 5 2015 14:54:05 Lisi Reisz wrote:
If you think in terms of DSL in this context, then you have encapsulated the problem, and no wonder there are problems. It is the 21st Century now, not the 20th. Is Tim on DSL? How on earth does he manage a modern server farm on DSL???? With difficulty would seem to be the answer. DSL is slow and unreliable. We have the answer.
Having been in a similar situation to Tim I can appreciate his problem.
I don't know how many servers Tim has but a server farm suggests rather more than one and you're looking at a few hundred dollars per month for each server to have them in a good data center. VPSs just don't have the oomph for mass rebuilds.
Alternatively you can run a DS1 or DS3 to a server farm in your office. They're much more reliable than DSL although for years they've often actually been delivered over a form of DSL. It's just that when you're paying between a thousand and ten thousand a month you get better response to your service calls then when you're only paying fifty to a hundred.
Of course you can move to certain metro areas where high speed internet connections are relatively cheap - but then your office space costs ten times as much.
It's a business decision where you put your office, what bandwidth you buy, which servers you run in house, which you put in data centers, and which you put on VPSs. And no matter what Tim chooses I doubt TDE is bringing in even fraction of what Tim spends on TDE for us.
--Mike
On Monday 05 October 2015 23:10:40 Mike Bird wrote:
It's a business decision where you put your office, what bandwidth you buy, which servers you run in house, which you put in data centers, and which you put on VPSs. And no matter what Tim chooses I doubt TDE is bringing in even fraction of what Tim spends on TDE for us.
Of course. No-one queries that. And those of you who live in the USA are stuck with what it offers. Most of you like it.
But the Internet infrastructure is very poor, and is obviously even worse than I realised. I knew that Tim had problems, and that the Internet in the USA is awful, but DSL - ouch!
We have a few farmers having to manage on dial-up still, and even the government has woken up and is doing something because it causes them such problems. But they have cows not server farms.
It comes from being early adopters. We anglophones are stuck in the past.
I've just been looking up DS3, which I didn't know. I knew that the Internet provision in the USA was bad, but I hadn't realised how bad.
I could have this: https://www.zen.co.uk/business/ Zen is my ISP. They have checked my line and said that I would actually get 78 meg. But I am getting 20 meg for £18 a month including tax, for more bandwidth than I use, so I can't justify the price hike to myself now I am more or less retired. And the UK is bad in Internet terms. (That is expensive in UK terms, because it is good in UK terms.) And I am in a rural area. As you say of the US, it is better in large urban areas.
At this time of night (23:46) I can't find out what this costs: https://www.zen.co.uk/business/leased-lines-and-ipvpn/leased-lines.aspx#addi...
Wouldn't you rather change busines or emigrate Tim? You really are up against it.
Can we not get TDE hosted pro bono by somebody good in a good country for connection?
Lisi
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On Monday 05 October 2015 22:28:58 Mike Bird wrote:
I've spent half of my life in the UK and half in the US.
I don't see the relevance of that. DSL isn't very old, so it makes a difference which half and how old you are. You may have no experience at all of DSL in the UK. Besides, DSL is totally irrelevant.
I seriously doubt that US DSL connections are significantly less reliable than UK DSL connections. Generally more expensive, but not much difference in reliability.
I answered that, then deleted it because I realised that it is completely irrelevant.
If you think in terms of DSL in this context, then you have encapsulated the problem, and no wonder there are problems. It is the 21st Century now, not the 20th. Is Tim on DSL? How on earth does he manage a modern server farm on DSL???? With difficulty would seem to be the answer. DSL is slow and unreliable. We have the answer.
Lisi
Actually, no, you only think you have the answer. DSL is outdated as you say, and there is no way I would be stupid enough to try to run a server farm like this on a DSL line. In fact this location has always been served with a "business class" line from a large provider, it's just that they decided to focus on residential service at the expense of business customers (probably due to people like you that seem to want everything centralised in one spot under the control of a handful of companies, with the resultant highly asymmetric access patterns). They have basically told us "sorry, there's nothing we can do for you, and by the way we have a monopoly on service in your area. Would you like to buy fiber for only $20,000 USD / month?", so the only option left is a move.
Also, please remember that TDE is a donated service run by volunteers. I make no money off of this project, and the only reason I still keep it alive is because I use the software internally for business purposes and already invested the time and effort in building the public infrastructure. I will not be investing that amount of time and effort again, so unless you find someone else willing to do it all, for free, to your specifications you will just have to live with the free services the way that they are, until such time as I am able to move them.
Yes, I want TDE to be a worldwide project. As Slavek mentioned we have a VPS available overseas and are moving some of the affected services to that machine. Can we move core services like the build farm there? Absolutely not! If you were paying attention to the data transfer amounts and disk space requirements that were previously sent to this list -- just for a mirror of the builds generated on my systems _at my expense_ -- you would begin to understand the reason for the "slow" "unreliable" master server access. It would cost a lot of money, on a monthly basis, just to keep those services running elsewhere, and the donations coming in to the project are so pitiful (with one or two exceptions from generous individuals) that it would be cheaper for me just to yank all public access to all TDE services and develop it internally only.
That last sentence brings me to my final point. We have reached the point where we need more developers or more contributing users, not just people that are downloading and using the software. While the latter are nice they do not help to drive the project forward or to even keep it on the Internet -- in fact, they hinder the latter goal.
I'm not going to continue this conversation further. From what you are saying you are going to stop promoting TDE, and that's your decision, however I really want you to understand that actions have consequences. Just like the actions of thousands of people clamoring for better cloud services, Netflix/Amazon/etc. movie streaming, etc. have damaged the availability of symmetric Internet connections, if people stop supporting TDE or even promoting it then it will die and disappear. Better warm up those KDE SC 5 or Unity configurations, because that's all we'll have left...
Tim
On Monday 05 October 2015 23:20:08 Timothy Pearson wrote:
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On Monday 05 October 2015 22:28:58 Mike Bird wrote:
I've spent half of my life in the UK and half in the US.
I don't see the relevance of that. DSL isn't very old, so it makes a difference which half and how old you are. You may have no experience at all of DSL in the UK. Besides, DSL is totally irrelevant.
I seriously doubt that US DSL connections are significantly less reliable than UK DSL connections. Generally more expensive, but not much difference in reliability.
I answered that, then deleted it because I realised that it is completely irrelevant.
If you think in terms of DSL in this context, then you have encapsulated the problem, and no wonder there are problems. It is the 21st Century now, not the 20th. Is Tim on DSL? How on earth does he manage a modern server farm on DSL???? With difficulty would seem to be the answer. DSL is slow and unreliable. We have the answer.
Lisi
Actually, no, you only think you have the answer. DSL is outdated as you say, and there is no way I would be stupid enough to try to run a server farm like this on a DSL line.
Tim -
I'm sorry that my disagreement with Mike has impinged on you. It had not occurred to me that you might be using DSL. It was Mike who said it, and I didn't really believe him. See the question marks?
I am going to put in here at the beginning what I have said at the end: I am not attacking or criticising you, Tim. I think that what you are doing is wonderful. But I see a problem and I am trying to find a solution.
In fact this location has always been served with a "business class" line from a large provider, it's just that they decided to focus on residential service at the expense of business customers (probably due to people like you that seem to want everything centralised in one spot under the control of a handful of companies, with the resultant highly asymmetric access patterns)
No, I don't, that is unfair and untrue. I have always gone out of my way to patronise small start-up companies and avoid the big boys. I do all I can to stop other people using the big boys. We have a law here against monopolies - one of the advantages of the "liberalism" so hated by many in the US. If I like everything centralised in one spot, why on earth do I use TDE??
My ISP, Zen, was tiny when I joined it. I'm not going to desert it for growing - though I shall desert it if it starts to behave like a "big-boy". There was a very small, very good local ISP that I was recommending to clients, but it has been taken over by someone bigger and less local, so I don't know where it is going and am not currently recommending it to anyone.
. They have basically told us "sorry, there's nothing we can do for you, and by the way we have a monopoly on service in your area. Would you like to buy fiber for only $20,000 USD / month?", so the only option left is a move.
Yes, you are really up against it. I would hate to be in your shoes.
Also, please remember that TDE is a donated service run by volunteers.
Yes, I know. I keep saying how grateful I am. But that doesn't mean that I think that it is perfect.
I make no money off of this project, and the only reason I still keep it alive is because I use the software internally for business purposes and already invested the time and effort in building the public infrastructure. I will not be investing that amount of time and effort again, so unless you find someone else willing to do it all, for free, to your specifications you will just have to live with the free services the way that they are, until such time as I am able to move them.
Again, I know. I thought that I was trying to suggest trying to help do something about it. Part of the problem is that any project which relies totally on one person is inevitably in a precarious position.
Yes, I want TDE to be a worldwide project. As Slavek mentioned we have a VPS available overseas and are moving some of the affected services to that machine.
That sounds terrific and was just what I was saying would be good. But can it not be all the public-facing services?
Can we move core services like the build farm there? Absolutely not!
When have I ever suggested it? I have only ever referred to the public-facing bits.
If you were paying attention to the data transfer amounts and disk space requirements that were previously sent to this list -- just for a mirror of the builds generated on my systems _at my expense_ -- you would begin to understand the reason for the "slow" "unreliable" master server access.
Which is why we shouldn't be trying to access the master server. I try to do so as little as possible, partly for that reason. But Mike told me to do so, (advice he has repeated during the course of this "discussion") and the website says to use it. It shouldn't.
It would cost a lot of money, on a monthly basis, just to keep those services running elsewhere, and the donations coming in to the project are so pitiful (with one or two exceptions from generous individuals) that it would be cheaper for me just to yank all public access to all TDE services and develop it internally only.
There are sites that host projects like this pro bono, certainly the web-sites and repos etc. and public facing bits. I am willing to try to find one, but that seems to be a very unpopular suggestion. But anyway, I thought you said that you had now got a VPS available, and were transferring some, hopefully all, of the public facing services.
That last sentence brings me to my final point. We have reached the point where we need more developers or more contributing users, not just people that are downloading and using the software. While the latter are nice they do not help to drive the project forward or to even keep it on the Internet -- in fact, they hinder the latter goal.
Yes, I know. But to get more developers you need more users. And to get more users you need to be more accessible. And my suggestion that I will help try to achieve that has met with a lot of hostility (not until now from you, I must add). You cannot simultaneously change and stay the same. You can stay small, cash strapped, threatened, or you can grow - and embrace any necessary changes.
I'm not going to continue this conversation further. From what you are saying you are going to stop promoting TDE, and that's your decision,
How can I go on promoting it, when it is then inaccessible? However understandable it may be that it is inaccessible. I have been promoting it hard and getting somewhere, but no-one goes on using it because it is just too much trouble. But from what you say, extra people are just a nuisance anyway - something I have often wondered about.
however I really want you to understand that actions have consequences. Just like the actions of thousands of people clamoring for better cloud services, Netflix/Amazon/etc. movie streaming, etc.
I don't think they are. It is Amazon Prime, Netfilx etc. that are clamouring for users. And it is the providers who find providing DVDs by post more trouble than persuading people to stream.
have damaged the availability of symmetric Internet connections, if people stop supporting TDE or even promoting it then it will die and disappear.
I know. Which is why I have been promoting it. But it will also die and disappear if you personally get fed up; or if it doesn't become accessible.
I understand your problems. But try to understand travelling for an hour or more to install or update TDE and having to go away again because it isn't accessible. Or running a class, and the pupils being unable to install after all because it is unavailable. That is what happens if people do as instructed on the website. It shouldn't take inside knowledge to be able to use TDE, if it is to grow. Reading the website should be enough. So the recommended repo or redirector needs to be up reliably. As, of course, does teh website. Which seems to mean that it needs to be hosted somewhere outside the USA. This Czeck one sounds marvellous. And possibly/probably the answer to what I am saying.
I have solved it for myself for some years now by always using a mirror, which also keeps the load off the centre. But not all the mirrors are reliable. I asked for advice on which mirror people found reliable, Mike told me to use the redirector and that is where we came in... I am now safely back on a mirror, though now I have chosen one, Mike tells me that I have chosen the wrong one. I did ask for advice.
Apropos of which, if it is your recommended list, copernicus still seems to be unavailable. kuiper is fine still. Perhaps Kent decided that one was enough? Anyhow, perhaps copernicus shouldn't be recommended.
Better warm up those KDE SC 5 or Unity configurations, because that's all we'll have left...
Yes, I know. That is why I get so frustrated. Unless we can find a way to keep TDE running it will die. It needs users to generate money and developers, or it will be a small niche product and die.
Most people go with the flow. Most people use whatever the big boys shove out. Only we rebels and social oddballs (and we must be if we don't use Ubuntu Unity - or even Windows - and bow and say thank you) will use TDE at any price. I can't wean people off Unity onto something that is problematic. They just go back to Unity. Or Windows.
I am not attacking or criticising you, Tim. I think that what you are doing is wonderful. But I see a problem and I am trying to find a solution.
Mike is to some extent attacking me, I am obviously annoying him, and you are getting caught in the crossfire. That DSL business was obvious nonsense, and anyway it is completely irrelevant what provision is like here; or where Mike has lived.
I repeat: I am not attacking or criticising you, Tim. I think that what you are doing is wonderful. But I see a problem and I am trying to find a solution.
Lisi
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On Tuesday 06 October 2015 01:35:31 Lisi Reisz wrote:
If you were paying attention to the data transfer amounts and disk space requirements that were previously sent to this list -- just for a mirror of the builds generated on my systems _at my expense_ -- you would begin to understand the reason for the "slow" "unreliable" master server access.
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 02:18:29 Mike Bird wrote:
The redirector is recommended because, when it is up, it jumps through hoops to get you the up to date information,
???
I should have though that we should avoid the master server, and it looks as though we shall soon be able to do so easily.
Incidentally, Tim, I have never complained of slow. Only of unreliable.
Lisi
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 00.20:08 Timothy Pearson wrote:
I'm not going to continue this conversation further. From what you are saying you are going to stop promoting TDE, and that's your decision, however I really want you to understand that actions have consequences. Just like the actions of thousands of people clamoring for better cloud services, Netflix/Amazon/etc. movie streaming, etc. have damaged the availability of symmetric Internet connections, if people stop supporting TDE or even promoting it then it will die and disappear. Better warm up those KDE SC 5 or Unity configurations, because that's all we'll have left...
Tim
OK, so let's face the truth:
How many TDE users are we? On this list I don't see much more than a dozen. Who is ready to contribute and how much?
I don't know where big projects (KDE, Gnome) get their money from, but obviously we can't have a small, non-profit project supported by Tim alone, use it for free and them rant because it's not available like a big distribution.
How much do we need to keep TDE alive, and how much can we get / are we ready to give? In the Linux world most are used to get everything for free, are we different?
From Tim's tone I feel that if we dont address this issue _now_ we'll no more being installing a lot of TDEs, be it fast or slowly.
Another idea to ease install problems: is it not possible to create some sort of install DVD? Most of us I guess are mostly installing the same distribution over and over, so installing TDE from a DVD or USB stick would save downloading it over and over, which costs money and generate frustration.
Other projects also only publish final releases. If there are no contributors, we probably must accept the idea that we can't have nightly builds and other bleeding edge releases unless some good soul offers it to us.
BUt what is sure is that if we don't _do_ something and just sit there ranting we want better services for no more (of our) money we'll have to keep our current installs running as they are or change our desktops...
I'd love to be able to continue installing TDE...
Thierry
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