On 5/21/24 2:06 AM, Felix Miata via tde-users wrote: Sounds good enough. I have no plans to use Debian. All I want is a complete TDE install. Slackware is notably absent from the list of distros offering anything close to a full TDE install. I hope to work toward resolving that, but I need a full install to start comparing. Second, I am interested in how much a full TDE conflicts with a full KDE. Slackware comes with a full KDE install. For the curious, along with the recent discussions about TDE keeping KDE3 on "life support," one of my guesses that keeps TDE restrained from wider adoption is living in /opt purgatory. I have posted my share of questions regarding this dilemma. TDE is not well designed to coexist with other DEs and this can be seen in the complexity of starttde, incomplete *.desktop files, etc. I filed bug reports about this well back into the first days of TDE. I suspect many TDE users do not experience conflicts with other DEs because they only use TDE. That's fine and not a point of contention. Those who use multiple DEs or have computers with multiple users run into snags trying to massage TDE with the DEs. I am not a coder, but one way or another I suspect the only way to move forward is somebody collecting notes to help move TDE back to /usr land. Hence the request for a full TDE install environment. :)

Felix Miata composed on 2024-05-21 13:56 (UTC-0400): I forgot this page exists (I thought my list was short): <https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/Category:Installation> It adds Archlinux, FreeBSD, MX Linux, Raspbian and *Slackware*. <https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/Slackware_Trinity_Installation_Instructions> -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata

said Thierry de Coulon via tde-users: | On Tuesday 21 May 2024 19.56:37 Felix Miata via tde-users wrote: | > I have no understanding /why/ there's any objection to TDE placement | > in /opt/. | | So do I. Clear, clean, convenient. This weird argument goes back 25 years, when some of us were recompiling KDE daily. Then, you'd add "prefix=/opt/kde" because, as those who wanted it splattered all over the place discovered to their anguish, if the build blew up you could easily delete everything from /opt/kde -- not so easy if you've distributed it all through the filesystem. I'd argue that more rather than fewer things ought to be nicely segregated in /opt. -- dep Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/

On Tue May 21 2024 13:22:33 Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote: <long argument snipped> TDE works fine in /opt, as does Google Earth and Unity Hub game development environment. Thank you TDE devs for maintaining and improving an excellent and reliable software product without forcing unnecessary changes on us. --Mike

Felix Miata via tde-users wrote: It is on the roadmap, but AFAIK too many things need to be adjusted regarding the naming of the applications. I trust Slavek and Michele to lead us there. In the past few years few excellent developers joined and I see a lot of progress compared to 10y ago. I keep my fingers crossed.

J Leslie Turriff via tde-users wrote: I think it falls under "nice to have". The other aspect is that it will be not mistaken with KDE (I mean the applications)

On 5/21/24 3:59 PM, Thierry de Coulon via tde-users wrote: Fair enough. My guess is every one of those apps create sym links in /usr/bin because seldom is /opt/trinity/$anything in the search path $PATH.

On 5/21/24 6:14 PM, J Leslie Turriff via tde-users wrote: Yes, but /opt/trinity/bin does not get into $PATH if the user does not launch starttde. Some users might want to use TDE software from within a different DE. I modified starttde and some /etc/profile.d scripts to accommodate either use case.

On 5/21/24 7:51 PM, J Leslie Turriff via tde-users wrote: And for people who do not use bash? ;)

On 2024-05-21 22:04:59 Felix Miata via tde-users wrote: I think he means people who don't know what .bashrc does. Leslie -- Platform: Linux Distribution: openSUSE Leap 15.5 - x86_64 Desktop Environment: Trinity Qt: 3.5.0 TDE: R14.1.2 tde-config: 1.0

Darrell Anderson composed on 2024-05-21 22:40 (UTC-0500): My point was *most* users on *most* distros have a ~/.bashrc file, whether they know it or not, and whether they consciously or not do anything that may be affected by anything in it. Some environments get pretty big: 1608 57565 MANPATH=/usr/local/man:/usr/share/man:/opt/kde3/share/man PATH=/opt/kde3/bin:/home/redact/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/home/redact/bin WINDOWMANAGER=/opt/kde3/bin/startkde XDG_DATA_DIRS=/usr/local/share:/usr/share:/etc/opt/kde3/share:/opt/kde3/share -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata

said Darrell Anderson via tde-users: | On 5/21/24 7:51 PM, J Leslie Turriff via tde-users wrote: | > Easy enough to add /opt/trinity/bin to PATH in .bashrc. | | And for people who do not use bash? ;) They can compile it themselves and put it wherever they want. -- dep Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/

On Tuesday 21 May 2024 13:22:33 Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote: I used to share your opinion, and that was more or less my complaint: that a desktop installed to /opt/ makes TDE appear second-class, that we must sit at the back of the bus, that we don't get included as one of the default choices of desktop by the major distros. Now, however, I don't mind so much. (Been running TDE for about 12 years, KDE3 for another 8 years or so before that.) For one thing, there are some basic technical problems -- if I may call it that -- having to do with the simple problem of naming. Many legacy KDE3 applications retain their KDE names, prefixes, suffixes, as well as the same extensions (for file type, deb, rpm, etc.), so that the newer KDE4/5/6 packages would create apparent conflicts. To attempt to rename *all* the TDE packages that have old KDE3 names would be difficult, because it could not be done easily by some kind of find-and-replace too. Any half-hearted measures would be a waste of time, and at the moment, I believe, only a fool's errand. If we do that, then any renaming scheme must be thorough, comprehensive, rename every single package, so that it is uniform. Also this would obscure our historical connection with KDE. {SNIP} And yet TDE is still used by users who are even *more* tech savvy than those savants who would judge us. ;-) In the end, I think that it's more important to keep TDE free-libre, compliant with GNU/Linux standards, and not go chasing after acceptance by the big guys. Look at what happens to all those other desktops: they all become, sooner or later, to more or less degree, owned by corporations, and then those desktops get changed, streamlined, options removed, our little private, individual worlds are ruined, and we end up with a dilemma -- either conform, and use some desktop that we don't like, that doesn't allow us to configure our machines as it suits us, or just to stop using these machines altogether. (The same, by the way, goes for other applications, programs, distros, etc.; once they are controlleld by some corporation, or by some "inner circle" of developers who have no connection to users.) Things get changed. Look at what happened to the 'Buntus; some would say that they same thing happened to Debian, which is why some rebel developers forked Devuan. Besides which ... I am sure that there are many other technical issues, much harder than just the renaming of packages, that must be resolved before any great changes can happen, before we get out of the /opt/ folder. It would be nice to have a Devuan installation disc with TDE already available for installation; I mean, just a plain vanilla Devuan, not somebody's snapshot of their system. (Nik, among others, has released snapshots, which are nice to play around with, nice to see what others are doing; but Nik configures his system as it suits him, so those snapshots don't work for me.) In the meanwhile, though, I have adapted to the present situation, and I am just glad that TDE exists, as I lose patience with other desktops, and practically have a meltdown whenever I have to use another person's machine, or when I must use public computers. For this, I have taken to portable apps for Windoze, and for those situations where it is possible to use it, I have created a mini-version of my system on a 256 gb flash drive -- COMPLEAT with root, home, swap partitions, and a UEFI boot partition -- so that, with permission, I can use somebody else's hardware, reboot into my own system. Then when I am reunited with my laptop or desktop, I can insert that flash drive, and transfer files over to my main machine. Ultimately, I value my freedom more than I do convenience, and don't mind being the outsider. It used to hurt my feelings when I didn't belong to the group of cool kids at school, but 50-60 years later I find that I actually belong with the misfits, that the misfits are always the ones who are the true insiders, the ones who make interesting work, whose lives are more adventurous and exciting. Whatever minor inconveniences remain in TDE, they are nothing compared to the inconveniences of using some other desktop. Bill

said Felix Miata via tde-users: | sudo aptitude install tde-trinity Strangely, I recently discovered that aptitude is no longer on at least one distribution -- the Raspberry Pi 5 version of Debian -- though apt and its variants still are. I wonder if aptitude is falling out of favor. (I discovered it while executing the very command above, which worked with apt and, I suppose, apt-get.) -- dep Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/