Maybe the better question would be does anyone here have any users using POTS and WINE, and if so, on which distro? I haven't haven't suffered POTS or known more than one who has in close to 20 years. The one who has is the owner of the target. He has zero competence in computer setup or maintenance, historically struggling to do much more with internet than collect Windows malware. His email is Juno.
Absent a suggestion backed by recent experience with POTS and WINE, I'll be choosing between Mageia, openSUSE and Debian.
Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz dual core with 2GB RAM and GM965 14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only IceWM for X) on it now, which will stay.
On Monday 06 May 2019 10:51:51 pm Felix Miata wrote:
Maybe the better question would be does anyone here have any users using POTS and WINE, and if so, on which distro? I haven't haven't suffered POTS or known more than one who has in close to 20 years. The one who has is the owner of the target. He has zero competence in computer setup or maintenance, historically struggling to do much more with internet than collect Windows malware. His email is Juno.
Absent a suggestion backed by recent experience with POTS and WINE, I'll be choosing between Mageia, openSUSE and Debian.
Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz dual core with 2GB RAM and GM965 14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only IceWM for X) on it now, which will stay.
Hi Felix,
Q’s first:
- POTS as he connects to the Internet by telephone dial up? - Juno as in Juno WebMail or through a mail client?
Otherwise:
- User has No computer skills. - Needs Wine. (for what?) - Computer’s technology is 10+ years old.
# # #
Based upon just the ‘zero competence in computer’ try him on a MX Linux Live USB in persistent mode [1]? That should be about the easiest way for you to test if the hardware can handle it and once that’s figured out, then you can add TDE.
Best, Michael
[1] Update the release references to 18.x on https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/create-a-live-usb-w-persist-from-a-windows-d... and https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/MX_Linux_Trinity_Repository_Installation_Ins...
This might also help, http://inet-design.com/blogs/michael/how-create-bootable-usb-stick-iso-image...
Or just search, https://mxlinux.org/?s=make+live+usb+persistence
Michael composed on 2019-05-07 11:48 (UTC-0500):
Felix Miata wrote:
Maybe the better question would be does anyone here have any users using POTS and WINE, and if so, on which distro? I haven't haven't suffered POTS or known more than one who has in close to 20 years. The one who has is the owner of the target. He has zero competence in computer setup or maintenance, historically struggling to do much more with internet than collect Windows malware. His email is Juno.
Absent a suggestion backed by recent experience with POTS and WINE, I'll be choosing between Mageia, openSUSE and Debian.
Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz dual core with 2GB RAM and GM965 14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only IceWM for X) on it now, which will stay.
Q’s first:
- POTS as he connects to the Internet by telephone dial up?
Plain Old Telephone Service (land line). For a long time he had wifi, but it recently disappeared.
- Juno as in Juno WebMail or through a mail client?
I doubt he knows what a mail client is, though possibly in the past he might have used a proprietary Juno or Netzero or other cheap proprietary ISP client.
Otherwise:
- User has No computer skills.
He has a tablet to use when he can get a free wifi connection, which is rare where he lives. Let's say minimal any kind of skills. He's physically and mentally challenged to a degree I don't have a handle on, living on disability his whole life. He accidentally had his head bashed (before he reached his teens is as much as he remembers).
- Needs Wine. (for what?)
Dunno. Maybe he doesn't. Sometimes he throws out Windows app names I've never heard of. His poor memory keeps me challenged.
- Computer’s technology is 10+ years old.
12 or so, first generation of Intel GPUs (GMA X3100) supported by Xorg's modesetting DDX.
# # #
Based upon just the ‘zero competence in computer’ try him on a MX Linux Live USB in persistent mode [1]? That should be about the easiest way for you to test if the hardware can handle it and once that’s figured out, then you can add TDE.
I don't do USB except for occasional rescues. My interest isn't so much in what the hardware can support as a desktop he and I and POTS can work with, with an emphasis on minimal effort from me when he needs help. Without broadband, his phone is tied up with internet connection at the times he needs to call for help. Or so I thought. I just found out he has a cell phone too. Must be an Obama phone.
I already have minimal openSUSE 15.1 and TDE on Debian Buster installations on two of five / partitions I allocated for root filesystems. That leaves two possible distros/desktops to try besides IceWM and TDE (there will be two openSUSE 15.1: the existing, which will be for me only for fixing breakage on the other four, and one for him).
[1] Update the release references to 18.x on https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/create-a-live-usb-w-persist-from-a-windows-d... and https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/MX_Linux_Trinity_Repository_Installation_Ins...
This might also help, http://inet-design.com/blogs/michael/how-create-bootable-usb-stick-iso-image...
Or just search, https://mxlinux.org/?s=make+live+usb+persistence
AFAICT, MX is XFCE-focused. I don't like XFCE (or Gnome, the reason why I jumped on KDE1 when I discovered it), or that it's built on a gtk3 foundation, which may be why.
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757142 (wontfix) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1269274 (wontfix) https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1420743 (wontfix) http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830 (FIXED) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1269145 (fixed) https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=781807 (wontfix)
On Tuesday 07 May 2019 19:16:59 Felix Miata wrote:
Michael composed on 2019-05-07 11:48 (UTC-0500):
Felix Miata wrote:
Maybe the better question would be does anyone here have any users using POTS and WINE, and if so, on which distro? I haven't haven't suffered POTS or known more than one who has in close to 20 years. The one who has is the owner of the target. He has zero competence in computer setup or maintenance, historically struggling to do much more with internet than collect Windows malware. His email is Juno.
Absent a suggestion backed by recent experience with POTS and WINE, I'll be choosing between Mageia, openSUSE and Debian.
Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz dual core with 2GB RAM and GM965 14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only IceWM for X) on it now, which will stay.
Q’s first:
- POTS as he connects to the Internet by telephone dial up?
Plain Old Telephone Service (land line). For a long time he had wifi, but it recently disappeared.
- Juno as in Juno WebMail or through a mail client?
I doubt he knows what a mail client is, though possibly in the past he might have used a proprietary Juno or Netzero or other cheap proprietary ISP client.
Otherwise:
- User has No computer skills.
He has a tablet to use when he can get a free wifi connection, which is rare where he lives. Let's say minimal any kind of skills. He's physically and mentally challenged to a degree I don't have a handle on, living on disability his whole life. He accidentally had his head bashed (before he reached his teens is as much as he remembers).
- Needs Wine. (for what?)
Dunno. Maybe he doesn't. Sometimes he throws out Windows app names I've never heard of. His poor memory keeps me challenged.
- Computer’s technology is 10+ years old.
12 or so, first generation of Intel GPUs (GMA X3100) supported by Xorg's modesetting DDX.
# # #
Based upon just the ‘zero competence in computer’ try him on a MX Linux Live USB in persistent mode [1]? That should be about the easiest way for you to test if the hardware can handle it and once that’s figured out, then you can add TDE.
I don't do USB except for occasional rescues. My interest isn't so much in what the hardware can support as a desktop he and I and POTS can work with, with an emphasis on minimal effort from me when he needs help. Without broadband, his phone is tied up with internet connection at the times he needs to call for help. Or so I thought. I just found out he has a cell phone too. Must be an Obama phone.
I already have minimal openSUSE 15.1 and TDE on Debian Buster installations on two of five / partitions I allocated for root filesystems. That leaves two possible distros/desktops to try besides IceWM and TDE (there will be two openSUSE 15.1: the existing, which will be for me only for fixing breakage on the other four, and one for him).
[1] Update the release references to 18.x on https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/create-a-live-usb-w-persist-from-a-window s-desktop/ and https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/MX_Linux_Trinity_Repository_Installation_ Instructions
This might also help, http://inet-design.com/blogs/michael/how-create-bootable-usb-stick-iso-im age.html
Or just search, https://mxlinux.org/?s=make+live+usb+persistence
AFAICT, MX is XFCE-focused. I don't like XFCE (or Gnome, the reason why I jumped on KDE1 when I discovered it), or that it's built on a gtk3 foundation, which may be why.
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757142 (wontfix) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1269274 (wontfix) https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1420743 (wontfix) http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830 (FIXED) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1269145 (fixed) https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=781807 (wontfix)
He would probably be better off sticking with Windoze (I hate to say it), but I imagine that a large part of the problem here is money, and I wouldn't recommend that anybody use pirated versions, either, which are possibly the only thing worse than Windoze itself.
So you're trying to help somebody less fortunate, which is a good thing. From what I gather of the situation, I would recommend something like PINGuy Linux (based on Ubuntu), if it is still around.
https://pinguyos.com/ https://www.distrowatch.com/pinguy
I tried it out myself a little, but wanted more control over my own system. However, when I had some friends who wanted to give Linux a try, but weren't techies or geeks at all, and didn't seem likely to make the jump from Windoze to something like Debian, Slackware, etc., I set them up with PINGuy, and it seemed to work pretty well for them.
If you are just looking to build a computer for somebody else out of an old box and parts, etc. (which I'm still doing myself), then it requires minimal user input; the firewall is already set up, and I imagine it can handle dial-up, too.
ALSO: I sometimes have to use public computers in an area shared by lots of people who are rather similar to your description of this person. The network admin installed Lubuntu (i.e., with LXDE desktop) on all the public computers at this place, and everybody seems to have adjusted pretty quickly. You could also install Debian with LXDE. But then I imagine that you might fall into that trap of having to hold his hand for every little thing, and I myself have a deep appreciation for anybody who wants to avoid people who will not only waste my time, but who will somehow claim more and more of it. Life is short.
Either way, I think, you get caught in a dilemma. Do you choose the initial ease of installation, and simple point-and-click interfaces, etc.; or do you choose stability, and trust that maybe you won't have to return too often.
Good luck,
Bill
On Wednesday 08 May 2019 02:14:07 am William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 07 May 2019 19:16:59 Felix Miata wrote:
Michael composed on 2019-05-07 11:48 (UTC-0500):
Felix Miata wrote:
I don't do USB except for occasional rescues. My interest isn't so much in what the hardware can support as a desktop he and I and POTS can work with, with an emphasis on minimal effort from me when he needs help.
AFAICT, MX is XFCE-focused. I don't like XFCE (or Gnome, the reason why I jumped on KDE1 when I discovered it), or that it's built on a gtk3 foundation, which may be why.
Hi Felix,
I have to agree with Bill, kudos to you for helping this person out! I’ve dealt with people who’ve had head injuries and you’re never sure where they are capable. Worse some of them never seem to know if they’ve actually told you a), b), or c) so tell you them multiple time. Or they think they told you all three and have really only told you b). Highly frustrating from both sides. :(
On MX, yes I think it does default install XFCE, but you don’t have to use it, nor do you need anything Gnome. I don’t, I use TDE with it. I brought it up as MX does have a lot of MX built tools that would make your install/setup life easier.
Since you’re going with TDE as the interface (guessing), per Bill’s installation vs. stability, I’d say MX is in the middle for installation. MX is a no-systemd Debian stable so I believe people would score that high on stability?
The USB was to just try it, it does install to the hard drive.
I’ll guess you’ve already thought of trying an Ubuntu LTS? I’d surmise that the 16.04 LTS would be basically feature locked by now and would give you until 2024 until you’d need to look at it again.
Hope that helps, Michael
On Wednesday 08 May 2019 11:19:17 Michael wrote:
On Wednesday 08 May 2019 02:14:07 am William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 07 May 2019 19:16:59 Felix Miata wrote:
Michael composed on 2019-05-07 11:48 (UTC-0500):
Felix Miata wrote:
I don't do USB except for occasional rescues. My interest isn't so much in what the hardware can support as a desktop he and I and POTS can work with, with an emphasis on minimal effort from me when he needs help.
AFAICT, MX is XFCE-focused. I don't like XFCE (or Gnome, the reason why I jumped on KDE1 when I discovered it), or that it's built on a gtk3 foundation, which may be why.
Hi Felix,
I have to agree with Bill, kudos to you for helping this person out! I’ve dealt with people who’ve had head injuries and you’re never sure where they are capable. Worse some of them never seem to know if they’ve actually told you a), b), or c) so tell you them multiple time. Or they think they told you all three and have really only told you b). Highly frustrating from both sides. :(
On MX, yes I think it does default install XFCE, but you don’t have to use it, nor do you need anything Gnome. I don’t, I use TDE with it. I brought it up as MX does have a lot of MX built tools that would make your install/setup life easier.
Since you’re going with TDE as the interface (guessing), per Bill’s installation vs. stability, I’d say MX is in the middle for installation. MX is a no-systemd Debian stable so I believe people would score that high on stability?
I forgot to mention AntiX, which is in that MX family, also no-systemd, etc. I did like a lot about that system, and if I were using just a laptop, or similar setup, I might choose it again; however, it couldn't manage to recognize my internal hard drives (aside from sda1) on the initial installation, so I went back to Devuan. (I like to give all my hard drives special mount points, so that my reference points remain the same, even if they get unmounted and remounted.) While I could do this manually, after installation, it would be a real bother.
AntiX also works well with TDE.
The USB was to just try it, it does install to the hard drive.
I’ll guess you’ve already thought of trying an Ubuntu LTS? I’d surmise that the 16.04 LTS would be basically feature locked by now and would give you until 2024 until you’d need to look at it again.
Hope that helps, Michael
To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@lists.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-users-help@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting
Michael composed on 2019-05-08 13:19 (UTC-0500):
William Morder wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
AFAICT, MX is XFCE-focused. I don't like XFCE (or Gnome, the reason why I jumped on KDE1 when I discovered it), or that it's built on a gtk3 foundation, which may be why.
...
On MX, yes I think it does default install XFCE, but you don’t have to use it, nor do you need anything Gnome. I don’t, I use TDE with it. I brought it up as MX does have a lot of MX built tools that would make your install/setup life easier.
MX 18.2 on distrowatch shows it with GTK 3.22.11. This problem was in my OP as https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757142 and the links following it. That's hardly the only problem I have with GTK, so anything built with it as a foundation I'm ruling out unless it has something compelling that nothing else has. Are these custom MX tools built with something else, QT or assembler maybe?
Since you’re going with TDE as the interface (guessing), per Bill’s installation vs. stability, I’d say MX is in the middle for installation. MX is a no-systemd Debian stable so I believe people would score that high on stability?
Is MX in the same place philosophically as AntiX was WRT /usr/local/ 3 years ago? If it is, it's out of consideration, as explained on: https://mxlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=118&t=39978&sid=1ccc8a12cf8a26783b61084247a0625b
I don't have a problem with systemd any more. I'm well enough used to it. Since it's part of the majors that I'm familiar with, not having it for me is not a plus. It's actually a negative if system is Debian-based. I never got acclimated to Debian's lack of a GUI-free multi-user runlevel, or lack of chkconfig for managing init.
I’ll guess you’ve already thought of trying an Ubuntu LTS? I’d surmise that the 16.04 LTS would be basically feature locked by now and would give you until 2024 until you’d need to look at it again.
If I was to consider Ubuntu, it would be the most recent LTS.
Maybe I just need to stick with TDE on openSUSE or Debian.
On 05/06/2019 08:51 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz dual core with 2GB RAM and GM965 14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only IceWM for X) on it now, which will stay.
One problem that I didn't see anyone mention, that you may already be aware of: The modem in that Vaio is almost certainly a winmodem. Most of those can't be made to work with Linux, and for those that can, it's more trouble than it's worth. You'll need to use an external or PCMCIA card modem, but make sure it's a hardware modem, not a winmodem.
Bottom line, you'll save yourself a lot of headaches by leaving him on Windoze.
Dan Youngquist composed on 2019-05-17 09:08 (UTC-0700):
Felix Miata wrote:
Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz dual core with 2GB RAM and GM965 14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only IceWM for X) on it now, which will stay.
One problem that I didn't see anyone mention, that you may already be aware of: The modem in that Vaio is almost certainly a winmodem. Most of those> can't be made to work with Linux,
Actually it is one that ostensibly is supported, technically a high definition audio device.
and for those that can, it's more trouble than it's worth.
I wholeheartedly agree. I tried by starting with basics, determining whether the modem could work at all. My support mailing list discuss-subscribe@linmodems.org sub attempt was returned to sender. ScanModem found a 14f1:2c06 High Definition Audio device that should be supported as a modem, but underlying support for modems in distros seems to have died through lack maintenance required for newer foundational software versions, e.g. glibc, gcc, etc. The driver has to be built, and automatic building by installing the .deb (Debian 10) or .rpm (openSUSE 15.1) fails with "C compiler cannot create executables" on the cli and in config.log. In Debian, every attempt to use apt or aptitude for anything since trying to install the .deb results in "E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)" on account of alsa-driver-linuxant producing exit status 77 in post processing. e.g.:
apt install wvdial
You'll need to use an external or PCMCIA card modem, but make sure it's a hardware modem, not a winmodem.
He would have to come up with that on his own. He could probably come up with $10 or so at most. Whether he could find one is another matter requiring a lot of luck.
Bottom line, you'll save yourself a lot of headaches by leaving him on Windoze.
The Vaio's only license is for Vista, long since wiped from his HD.
On Fri, 24 May 2019 16:17:02 -0400 Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
Dan Youngquist composed on 2019-05-17 09:08 (UTC-0700):
Felix Miata wrote:
Target is a Vaio laptop (not mine) with 2.2GHz dual core with 2GB RAM and GM965 14" 1280x800 video. I have an openSUSE maintenance installation (only IceWM for X) on it now, which will stay.
One problem that I didn't see anyone mention, that you may already be aware of: The modem in that Vaio is almost certainly a winmodem. Most of those> can't be made to work with Linux,
Actually it is one that ostensibly is supported, technically a high definition audio device.
and for those that can, it's more trouble than it's worth.
I wholeheartedly agree. I tried by starting with basics, determining whether the modem could work at all. My support mailing list discuss-subscribe@linmodems.org sub attempt was returned to sender. ScanModem found a 14f1:2c06 High Definition Audio device that should be supported as a modem, but underlying support for modems in distros seems to have died through lack maintenance required for newer foundational software versions, e.g. glibc, gcc, etc. The driver has to be built, and automatic building by installing the .deb (Debian 10) or .rpm (openSUSE 15.1) fails with "C compiler cannot create executables" on the cli and in config.log. In Debian, every attempt to use apt or aptitude for anything since trying to install the .deb results in "E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)" on account of alsa-driver-linuxant producing exit status 77 in post processing. e.g.:
apt install wvdial
Bumbling around on the linuxant homepage for a while identifies them as the weak link in all this--they stopped developing the driver about ten years ago, and never upstreamed it. They say the driver you need "works under 2.6.16 or newer kernels", which probably means you need a kernel version V where 2.6.16 <= V < 3.0. I don't know if any current distro carries a kernel that old.
At this point, having your guy hit garage sales and junk shops to check for old PCMCIA or even external modems looks like a better bet.
E. Liddell
On Friday 24 May 2019 04:38:45 pm E. Liddell wrote:
At this point, having your guy hit garage sales and junk shops to check for old PCMCIA or even external modems looks like a better bet.
Is he close enough to some open/public wifi that a tin can wireless booster (cantenna) is an option? They're not that hard to build, and cheap, and way back in the day some guy in Australia had a setup that pushed a signal about 20 klicks to his offshore island home by using one on each end. I’ll guess you could get a couple klicks fairly easy, granted you still need half way decent line of sight…
Best, Michael
-
Dan Youngquist -
E. Liddell -
Felix Miata -
Michael -
William Morder via trinity-users