On Fri, 2024-05-17 at 11:19 -0500, Chris M wrote:
In regards to Nik's post about The Orgins of KDE:
I am curious to know what's the backstory on TDE? Why is KDE 3.5 being kept alive all of these years later? And what is TDE's Purpose?
I LOOOOOOOVED KDE 3.5 back in the day, but , I could never get KDE 3 to work right on my machine, like making it see the CDROM etc. But, when I found GNOME2 on Ubuntu 10.10 that became my home, then Unity, and KDE 5 for a little while, TDE for about a week, and MATE for the longest. And now im back to trying TDE.
The reason that I asked this question yesterday, is because, I LOVED KDE 3, but i'm scared to run TDE.
I've been reading on Reddit about TDE and read about how NO Linux distro will carry TDE because its a liability due to some kind of " Internet Stacks" still using KDE 3 code, and how unsafe it is, and how running TDE would be like connecting a Windows 98 PC to the internet without a firewall etc.
Thanks, Chris
OFF LIST: CM030@YAHOO.COM
Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
LMDE 6 "Faye"*~~~* TDE Desktop ( TRINITY ) instead of
Cinnamon*~~~*
On Sat May 18 2024 13:06:51 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
I've been reading on Reddit about TDE and read about how NO Linux distro will carry TDE because its a liability due to some kind of " Internet Stacks" still using KDE 3 code, and how unsafe it is, and how running TDE would be like connecting a Windows 98 PC to the internet without a firewall etc.
Why read uninformed speculation on reddit when you can read the source code?
TDE is remarkably stable, efficient, productive, and secure.
Mitre has a list of 233151 CVEs - cybersecurity vulnerabilities - and NONE of them are in TDE.
--Mike
On Sat, 2024-05-18 at 13:18 -0700, Mike Bird via tde-users wrote:
On Sat May 18 2024 13:06:51 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
I've been reading on Reddit about TDE and read about how NO Linux
distro will carry TDE because its a liability
due to some kind of " Internet Stacks" still using KDE 3 code, and how
unsafe it is, and how running TDE would be like
connecting a Windows 98 PC to the internet without a firewall etc.
Why read uninformed speculation on reddit when you can read the source code?
TDE is remarkably stable, efficient, productive, and secure.
Mitre has a list of 233151 CVEs - cybersecurity vulnerabilities - and NONE of them are in TDE.
--Mike
Now that is AWESOME TO HEAR! And would make me more comfortable using TDE full time!
Thanks, Chris
OFF LIST: CM030@YAHOO.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
* LMDE 6 "Faye"*~~~* TDE Desktop ( TRINITY ) instead of Cinnamon*~~~*
On Sat May 18 2024 13:23:13 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
Now that is AWESOME TO HEAR! And would make me more comfortable using TDE full time!
My wife is retired from being a journalist, a teacher, and a lawyer.
She is a smart person, and knows not to click on dangerous links.
Prior to installing Linux twenty years ago she would have to wipe and reinstall Windows multiple times each year due to malware infections.
While using Linux for twenty years - most of that time with TDE - her system has never been infected.
--Mike
TDE because its a liability due to some kind of " Internet Stacks" still using KDE 3 code, and how unsafe it is, and how running TDE would be like connecting a Windows 98 PC to the internet without a firewall etc.
This sound like rubish without any basis.
I'd think Internet access is handeled by the distribution, not the UI. Most of us here have been running TDE for more than 10 years and have seen nothing unsafe.
Maybe using Konqueror as a browser... but who does this?
-------- Original Message -------- On May 18, 2024, 3:28 PM, Thierry de Coulon via tde-users < users@trinitydesktop.org> wrote:
Maybe using Konqueror as a browser... but who does this?
Honestly, only time I've used Konqueror as a browser was through the Protoweb proxy, since the webpages archived there are from the late-90s and early-2000s -- basically old enough to be read by that almost-as-old HTML engine without any broken layouts.
Also, it'd be fair to say that any remnants of "KDE3 code" are basically just skin-deep, right? As in, old frontend, modern backend (or at least as modern as the backends TDE uses -- which I imagine still get backports and patches and the like, if not efforts to switch to more recently-updated ones when the need arises -- i.e. distros deprecating that package)?
- hunter graham
said Chris M via tde-users:
| I am curious to know what's the backstory on TDE? | Why is KDE 3.5 being kept alive all of these years later? | And what is TDE's Purpose?
Reddit. Really?
KDE was once very good. It was always under attack, because Qt, then because the right people didn't back it, then because Gnome. But it was the first decent Linux desktop, and it worked.
When KDE-4 came out, it sucked. And the KDE boys became defensive, downright nasty in fact about it. (To this day, if you point out some KDE thing that doesn't work, the response is always "I don't see you writing something better." To wit the mess that is Plasma Bigscreen, which has been in development for four years and still can't do anything anyone would want done.) To excuse their own shortcomings, they attack everything else.
Modern KDE goes out of its way to make things more complicated than they need to be. Consider the difference between putting an application on Kicker in TDE -- drag it there -- and modern KDE, which involved multiple steps, success is not assured, and it it possible to lose their kickerish thing entirely in the process.
Anyone who thinks security has *anything* to do with the desktop being run really should stay away from computers.
On Sat, 2024-05-18 at 20:21 +0000, dep via tde-users wrote:
said Chris M via tde-users:
I am curious to know what's the backstory on TDE? Why is KDE 3.5 being kept alive all of these years later? And what is TDE's Purpose?
Reddit. Really?
KDE was once very good. It was always under attack, because Qt, then because the right people didn't back it, then because Gnome. But it was the first decent Linux desktop, and it worked.
When KDE-4 came out, it sucked. And the KDE boys became defensive, downright nasty in fact about it. (To this day, if you point out some KDE thing that doesn't work, the response is always "I don't see you writing something better." To wit the mess that is Plasma Bigscreen, which has been in development for four years and still can't do anything anyone would want done.) To excuse their own shortcomings, they attack everything else.
Modern KDE goes out of its way to make things more complicated than they need to be. Consider the difference between putting an application on Kicker in TDE -- drag it there -- and modern KDE, which involved multiple steps, success is not assured, and it it possible to lose their kickerish thing entirely in the process.
Anyone who thinks security has *anything* to do with the desktop being run really should stay away from computers. -- dep
And lets NOT get into PLASMA's control panel and settings.
Settings HERE Settings THERE Settings OVER HERE Settings OVER THERE. 🙄️
Thats what turned me off to the headache called " Konfusing Desktop Environment" ( aka KDE / Plasma )
On Sat, 2024-05-18 at 20:21 +0000, dep via tde-users wrote:
said Chris M via tde-users:
I am curious to know what's the backstory on TDE? Why is KDE 3.5 being kept alive all of these years later? And what is TDE's Purpose?
Reddit. Really?
Yes, I was reading around the internet just to gage how many people actually use TDE as "a Daily Driver", due to it not being carried by any distros etc, besides Q4OS. I found a few people out there that use TDE.
On 2024-05-18 15:27:38 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Sat, 2024-05-18 at 20:21 +0000, dep via tde-users wrote:
said Chris M via tde-users:
I am curious to know what's the backstory on TDE? Why is KDE 3.5 being kept alive all of these years later? And what is TDE's Purpose?
Reddit. Really?
Yes, I was reading around the internet just to gage how many people actually use TDE as "a Daily Driver", due to it not being carried by any distros etc, besides Q4OS. I found a few people out there that use TDE.
There are more of us than you might think. :-)
Leslie
Anno domini 2024 Sat, 18 May 22:15:27 -0500 J Leslie Turriff via tde-users scripsit:
On 2024-05-18 15:27:38 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Sat, 2024-05-18 at 20:21 +0000, dep via tde-users wrote:
said Chris M via tde-users:
I am curious to know what's the backstory on TDE? Why is KDE 3.5 being kept alive all of these years later? And what is TDE's Purpose?
Reddit. Really?
Yes, I was reading around the internet just to gage how many people actually use TDE as "a Daily Driver", due to it not being carried by any distros etc, besides Q4OS. I found a few people out there that use TDE.
There are more of us than you might think. :-)
"I am legion" :)
Leslie
Il giorno sab 18 mag 2024 alle ore 22:28 Chris M via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org ha scritto:
Yes, I was reading around the internet just to gage how many people actually use TDE as "a Daily Driver", due to it not being carried by any distros etc, besides Q4OS. I found a few people out there that use TDE.
Hi, I tried to build a live image based on CentOS [1]. But I abandoned it, because it requires some care and I cannot invest in it. Furthermore, no one seems to be interested in it. I also tried Q4OS, but IMO it's just a bloated distro while, at the opposite, TDE it's a very light environment. In my old netbook (32 bit Intel Atom, 1GB ram) I did a manual installation with full device support (NetworkManager, bluetooth etc), and it takes only 180 MB along with Debian 12.
Probably, TDE is the lightest full-optional DE. IMO, the main lack is Flatpak support. But it's ok, if you can survive with standard apps.
Regards, Massi
On Sunday 19 May 2024 13.18:22 Massi aka Ergosum via tde-users wrote:
Probably, TDE is the lightest full-optional DE. IMO, the main lack is Flatpak support. But it's ok, if you can survive with standard apps.
Flatpak support has nothing to do with TDE, it has to do with the distribution you use. MX-Linux for example has a good support for Flatpaks and you can install TDE on it.
Il giorno dom 19 mag 2024 alle ore 16:28 Thierry de Coulon via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org ha scritto:
Flatpak support has nothing to do with TDE, it has to do with the distribution you use. MX-Linux for example has a good support for Flatpaks and you can install TDE on it.
When I say "support" I mean desktop integration like portal, permissions and so on. It is good on modern KDE.
M.
On Sunday 19 May 2024 17.17:17 Massi aka Ergosum wrote:
When I say "support" I mean desktop integration like portal, permissions and so on. It is good on modern KDE.
M.
Not sure to understand. I use Flatpaks on MX-Linux using the installation tool provided by MX (written for XFCE I'd think), but the MX-Tools work also from TDE, although for them, as for other programs (GParted, Synaptics, GDebi come to my mind) I had to edit the menus and ad "tdesu" at the start of the command line to get them to work).
I sometime also have to create my own .desktop files if the programs don't automagicaly appear in the menus - I don't use the menus much, what I use lives in kicker.
So I do get desktop integration, but with some handwork...
On Saturday 18 May 2024 22.06:51 Chris M via tde-users wrote:
And what is TDE's Purpose?
In short: to have a fast, reliable, efficient, no-bloat, configurable user interface. I'd add: kmail and first of all konqueror (as a file manager), because no one ever wrote a better file manager.
TDE is simply better than *any* other UI, plus it works very well on almost any machine built since 1998. KDE or Gnome (and possibly evec XFCE) won't work well on an old machine (I'd day they don't either on modern machines...), and installing Win98 (if anyone was insane enough to want to do it) on a modern machine won't work (no drivers).
TDE does it all.
Thierry
On 5/18/24 1:06 PM, Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Fri, 2024-05-17 at 11:19 -0500, Chris M wrote:
I am curious to know what's the backstory on TDE? Why is KDE 3.5 being kept alive all of these years later? And what is TDE's Purpose?
The reason that I asked this question yesterday, is because, I LOVED KDE 3, but i'm scared to run TDE.
Your post yesterday never made it to me, and I can't find it in the archive.
You must not have been watching during the switch from KDE3 to KDE4. KDE4 was a complete disaster in almost every way. Real slick eye-candy looking, but most of what worked and was stable was less functional than KDE3 and ate up a lot more resources. And as someone else mentioned, the KDE people and sycophants were extremely defensive and aggressively insulting toward anyone who had the audacity to mention any imperfections. They took a perfectly good, fast, low-resource DE that made it easy to get work done, and completely destroyed most of what made it good. Several distros hung onto KDE3 for as long as they could, at least as an option, rather than switch to KDE4. Thank goodness someone forked it and the TDE project continues. TDE is not much heavier on resources than most "lightweight" DE's, but is way more functional.
On Saturday 18 May 2024 13:46:40 Dan Youngquist via tde-users wrote:
On Fri, 2024-05-17 at 11:19 -0500, Chris M wrote:
I am curious to know what's the backstory on TDE?
Thank goodness someone forked it and the TDE project continues. TDE is not much heavier on resources than most "lightweight" DE's, but is way more functional.
I can only echo what everybody else has already said. The only serious flaw that anybody has mentioned conerns using Konqueror as a web browser: I don't recommend doing that, as it is *way* out-of-date; although I seem to recall Slavek saying that he uses it ... and he ought to know. But if I were to make any negative recommendations, that would probably the only one: to remove web browsing from Konqueror. Otherwise, best file manager ever!
If anything, I regard TDE as more secure than other DEs, simply because I can actually find whatever I need to know, and find it easily, so that I know almost immediately if there is some problem, or if I have a security breach. In other desktops, KDE4/5, Gnome, etc., I have to go through so many steps to get that information, and it gets very tiring. Maybe that's part of the plan? so that people just give up and stop thinking about these matters.)
In TDE, I have everything set up as I feel that it works best for me, in my own life, not as somebody out there has decided. If I want to know what's happening with any aspect of my system, I usually can find out with only a few steps. And after I have done it once or twice, I can create for myself some way of simplifying that task.
Best thing about TDE is that I don't have to keep reinventing the wheel, over and over and over again. My desktop now looks essentially the same (with a few minor adjustments) as it did when I started running KDE3 back in 2006 or so. Everything works pretty much the same now as it did then, except of course for what I have added, what new tricks I have learned, and which have been incorporated into how I run my machines.
TDE helps to keep me sane.
Bill
On 2024-05-18 15:46:40 Dan Youngquist via tde-users wrote:
On 5/18/24 1:06 PM, Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Fri, 2024-05-17 at 11:19 -0500, Chris M wrote:
I am curious to know what's the backstory on TDE? Why is KDE 3.5 being kept alive all of these years later? And what is TDE's Purpose?
The reason that I asked this question yesterday, is because, I LOVED KDE 3, but i'm scared to run TDE.
Your post yesterday never made it to me, and I can't find it in the archive.
You must not have been watching during the switch from KDE3 to KDE4. KDE4 was a complete disaster in almost every way. Real slick eye-candy looking, but most of what worked and was stable was less functional than KDE3 and ate up a lot more resources. And as someone else mentioned, the KDE people and sycophants were extremely defensive and aggressively insulting toward anyone who had the audacity to mention any imperfections. They took a perfectly good, fast, low-resource DE that made it easy to get work done, and completely destroyed most of what made it good. Several distros hung onto KDE3 for as long as they could, at least as an option, rather than switch to KDE4. Thank goodness someone forked it and the TDE project continues. TDE is not much heavier on resources than most "lightweight" DE's, but is way more functional.
KDE3 is still actively supported on openSUSE.
Leslie
On Sunday 19 May 2024 05.13:28 J Leslie Turriff via tde-users wrote:
KDE3 is still actively supported on openSUSE.
And really working? SuSE (written like this) is the distribution that taught me to use Linux. They had (maybe still have) a very good manual. And KDE (was still 0.x at the time).
After they "upgraded" to KDE 4 I left, but some time later they made installing KDE 3 possible, and I did try. Many things did not work correctly, so you could install but not really use.
At that time I moved to Debian (because I could install TDE on it and I never liked Ubuntu). However now, I don't see a benefit from going "back" from TDE to KDE 3.
Thierry
Thierry de Coulon composed on 2024-05-19 09:43 (UTC+0200):
J Leslie Turriff via tde-users wrote:
KDE3 is still actively supported on openSUSE.
And really working?
It's running 24/7 here:
rpm -qa | grep kdebase
kdebase3-kdm-3.5.10.1-lp155.380.1.x86_64 kdebase3-SuSE-11.3-lp155.106.1.x86_64 kdebase3-runtime-3.5.10.1-lp155.380.1.x86_64 kdebase3-apps-3.5.10.1-lp155.380.1.x86_64 kdebase3-nsplugin-3.5.10.1-lp155.380.1.x86_64 kdebase3-session-3.5.10.1-lp155.380.1.x86_64 kdebase3-ksysguardd-3.5.10.1-lp155.380.1.x86_64 kdebase3-SuSE-branding-openSUSE-11.3-lp155.106.1.x86_64 kdebase3-3.5.10.1-lp155.380.1.x86_64 kdebase3-workspace-3.5.10.1-lp155.380.1.x86_64
inxi -SCMz
System: Kernel: 5.14.21-150500.55.59-default arch: x86_64 bits: 64 Desktop: KDE v: 3.5.10 Distro: openSUSE Leap 15.5 Machine: Type: Desktop System: Gigabyte product: B250M-D3H v: N/A serial: <superuser required> Mobo: Gigabyte model: B250M-D3H-CF v: x.x serial: <superuser required> UEFI-[Legacy]: American Megatrends v: F10 date: 12/14/2018 CPU: Info: dual core model: Intel Core i3-7100T bits: 64 type: MT MCP cache: L2: 512 KiB Speed (MHz): avg: 826 min/max: 800/3400 cores: 1: 904 2: 800 3: 800 4: 800
My multi-multiboot+ test boxes use a mix of TDE, KDE3 and Plasma mostly, with a smattered few XFCE and Cinnamon, but no Gnome, little SDDM, and no Wayland (installed, as required; actually used, never as yet). On openSUSE, I've probably an even split proportionally among TDE,KDE3 & Plasma 5. On Debian & *buntu I use TDE exclusively. On Mageia & Fedora I probably have close to an even split between TDE & Plasma 5. When I find out Neon has moved to Noble, I'll be trying Plasma 6. I think overall I clearly have more TDE installations than any other DE, while in uptime, KDE3 is way out front.
On Sunday 19 of May 2024 05:13:28 J Leslie Turriff via tde-users wrote:
On 2024-05-18 15:46:40 Dan Youngquist via tde-users wrote:
On 5/18/24 1:06 PM, Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Fri, 2024-05-17 at 11:19 -0500, Chris M wrote:
I am curious to know what's the backstory on TDE? Why is KDE 3.5 being kept alive all of these years later? And what is TDE's Purpose?
The reason that I asked this question yesterday, is because, I LOVED KDE 3, but i'm scared to run TDE.
Your post yesterday never made it to me, and I can't find it in the archive.
You must not have been watching during the switch from KDE3 to KDE4. KDE4 was a complete disaster in almost every way. Real slick eye-candy looking, but most of what worked and was stable was less functional than KDE3 and ate up a lot more resources. And as someone else mentioned, the KDE people and sycophants were extremely defensive and aggressively insulting toward anyone who had the audacity to mention any imperfections. They took a perfectly good, fast, low-resource DE that made it easy to get work done, and completely destroyed most of what made it good. Several distros hung onto KDE3 for as long as they could, at least as an option, rather than switch to KDE4. Thank goodness someone forked it and the TDE project continues. TDE is not much heavier on resources than most "lightweight" DE's, but is way more functional.
KDE3 is still actively supported on openSUSE.
Leslie
The question is what "actively supported" means. For example, for kdeslibs in the last year and a half, build compatibility with newer OpenSSL 3.x and with autoconf 2.72 has been addressed. That's all. In the previous two years, some TDE patches was backported. I would define it as maintaining in a very frozen state. Sure, the packages are built, so it can be installed. But is it possible to call it "actively supported"?
Cheers Slávek --
On Sat, 2024-05-18 at 22:13 -0500, J Leslie Turriff via tde-users wrote:
KDE3 is still actively supported on openSUSE.
Whats are differences between KDE 3 and TDE?
KDE 3 is Frozen in time, where TDE has had updates to KDE 3 components?
----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Thanks, Chris
OFF LIST: CM030@YAHOO.COM
* Lenovo ThinkCentre M710q*~~~* 1 TB SSD*~~~*15.5 GiB of ram*
~~* Q4OS Trinity *~~
Chris M composed on 2024-05-19 07:40 (UTC-0500):
Whats are differences between KDE 3 and TDE? KDE 3 is Frozen in time, where TDE has had updates to KDE 3 components?
Subtle visible evolution. Mostly it appears to have been adapting the unseen undercarriage as required to keep on keeping on those features that made KDE3 great, such as systemd replacing sysvinit or upstart, and logind replacing consolekit, in various distros. Most such things were necessary also in KDE3.
In openSUSE, KDE3 is not frozen in time. It just looks that way, for good reason. What ain't broke don't need fixin.
The PC I'm composing this on has both Leap with KDE3 and Tumbleweed with TDE. I use it with TW barely at all. I use TDE far more on other PCs, a roughly even split among KDE3, TDE and Plasma5, among openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Mageia and *buntu.
On Sunday 19 May 2024 10:53:18 am Felix Miata via tde-users wrote:
Subtle visible evolution. Mostly it appears to have been adapting the unseen undercarriage as required to keep on keeping on those features that made KDE3 great, such as systemd replacing sysvinit or upstart, and logind replacing consolekit, in various distros. Most such things were necessary also in KDE3.
In openSUSE, KDE3 is not frozen in time. It just looks that way, for good reason. What ain't broke don't need fixin.
That's right!
The PC I'm composing this on has both Leap with KDE3 and Tumbleweed with TDE. I use it with TW barely at all. I use TDE far more on other PCs, a roughly even split among KDE3, TDE and Plasma5, among openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Mageia and *buntu.
Oh Wow! I loved Tumbleweed. I used it with the MATE Desktop for awhile.
Felix Miata via tde-users wrote:
In openSUSE, KDE3 is not frozen in time. It just looks that way, for good reason. What ain't broke don't need fixin.
The PC I'm composing this on has both Leap with KDE3 and Tumbleweed with TDE. I use it with TW barely at all. I use TDE far more on other PCs, a roughly even split among KDE3, TDE and Plasma5, among openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Mageia and *buntu.
Well, I don't know what happened to KDE3, I just know that I joined TDE, because I had to fix a bunch of issues related to chars encoding. For me it was the TDEPIM part. With help of Michele and Slavek I managed to get into the repositories. After this I recall Michele and Slavek continued fixing the encoding issues in other modules. I honestly do not see a reason why one would use KDE3, but if you wish doing so, I don't mind. Because of the above issue, I can bet that you would have now and then encoding issues, if the patches were not backported.
I want to use this opportunity to thank all users and contributors that help keep the project alive and improve that code.
BR
On 5/18/24 3:06 PM, Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Fri, 2024-05-17 at 11:19 -0500, Chris M wrote:
In regards to Nik's post about The Orgins of KDE:
I am curious to know what's the backstory on TDE? Why is KDE 3.5 being kept alive all of these years later? And what is TDE's Purpose?
I LOOOOOOOVED KDE 3.5 back in the day, but , I could never get KDE 3 to work right on my machine, like making it see the CDROM etc. But, when I found GNOME2 on Ubuntu 10.10 that became my home, then Unity, and KDE 5 for a little while, TDE for about a week, and MATE for the longest. And now im back to trying TDE.
The reason that I asked this question yesterday, is because, I LOVED KDE 3, but i'm scared to run TDE.
I've been reading on Reddit about TDE and read about how NO Linux distro will carry TDE because its a liability due to some kind of " Internet Stacks" still using KDE 3 code, and how unsafe it is, and how running TDE would be like connecting a Windows 98 PC to the internet without a firewall etc.
What's the backstory? The best person to ask is Timothy Pearson. He forked KDE 3.5 to TDE. The first release was TDE 3.5.11, then 3.5.12, and 3.5.13. There never was a 3.5.14 release, instead the first of the R14 series was released.
The Wikipedia article has a short but fair summary of the history. Not mentioned in the article are reasons why the original core group of developers and maintainers stuck together. One of the reasons is the changes from Qt3 to Qt4. Most if not all of the core group did not like the look-and-feel of Qt4 -- the beginning of flat interfaces and dull colors. The technical members of the group did not like the way Qt4 functioned. There was some discussion about migrating TDE to Qt4, but the technical effort would have been too much. There was effort to provide some support for Qt4, somewhat part of the original reason behind the tqtinterface package.
With the so-called EOL of KDE 3.5 and the premature release of KDE 4, the main backstory is a notable amount of contempt, hatred, distrust, and anger among satisfied KDE 3.5 users.
For a few years TDE had some news coverage and then most of the click-bait news folks stop following TDE. There also was a couple of periods with little TDE development and hence, little news coverage.
Through the years I have read many pundits declare that somehow TDE is not secure. I doubt anybody will offer an argument that Konqueror as a web browser is secure, but just about any web browser can be reasonably secure by disabling JavaShit -- oops -- JavaScript and other modern data mining and tracking "features." On the same note, I don't think anybody has designed a file manager that is in the same class as Konqueror. KDE Dolphin is a fine file manager, but not in the same class.
Throughout the years of reading such claims about security, I have yet to read anybody actually auditing code to show how valid their claims might be. There is very much a prevailing attitude that Qt3 itself no longer is secure, mostly because Qt3 is not new and shiny.
With respect to why distro maintainers do not offer TDE as a primary desktop, there is significant political inertia with both KDE and GNOME. Always has been. Embracing TDE would be seen by some as kicking sand in the face of KDE developers.
The Xfce and MATE folks often get included in distros, but there has to be somebody willing to maintain the packages. The TDE developers do a decent job creating distro packages, but many distro maintainers still do not offer TDE as part of their mainstream collection.
Possibly why TDE falters some with mainstream adoption is TDE remains somewhat a black sheep. One reason is 14 years later, long after all of the spitting and feuding ended, TDE remains a usable and viable desktop and keeps improving. Most people predicted TDE would fade away, much like a lot of free/libre software. Many folks do not like that TDE remains healthy. Many do not like that TDE retains a somewhat old school traditional desktop design rather than everything acting like a smart phone or tablet.
Another reason for the black sheep label is living in /opt purgatory. TDE is not easily installed into the common /usr directory because of potential conflict with KDE. The MATE folks resolved that problem nicely by renaming all of their binaries with a "mate-" prefix. I think TDE could do likewise with a tde- prefix. Installing TDE in /opt creates various issues and the complexity of the starttde shell script attests to the hoops to jump through to avoid conflict.
There remains a strong following of other desktop environments despite the political popularity of KDE and GNOME. I think TDE could gain similar momentum enjoyed by Xfce and MATE. Much like why many to most TDE users prefer TDE rather than KDE, Xfce and MATE users are former GNOME users who dislike what happened to GNOME. One challenge is there are many more KDE developers who can create and offer new kinds of software. A rebuttal to that notion is many people using "old school" software have little to no need or desire for such software.
I think the Xfce and MATE developers made one mistake. Rather than maintain GTK 2 they adopted GTK 3 and their software suffers because they do not control GTK development. To the TDE developers credit they did not make the same mistake. I used both Xfce and MATE for a few years, but adopting GTK3 nonsense ended my dance with them.
I use KDE 5 and TDE. I invested serious sweat equity to trim KDE 5 to essentials, much like TDE. KDE 5 can be tamed but most people are not going to invest such effort. For me, one of the cornerstones was being able to continue using the Oxygen icon theme. Seems the KDE developers have been trying hard for a long time to abandon Oxygen preferring the new fad of flat icons. I use Oxygen with both KDE and TDE and that helps provide me a consistent environment with both.
I stopped having any hopes for KDE 4 the day Akonadi was forced on PIM users. I still refuse to use KDE PIM tools except for KAlarm, where the maintainer sanely changed Akonadi to a plugin.
I do not know how long I will continue using KDE. I have seen changes from 5 to 6 that remind me of the 3.5 to 4 days. For example, the KDE developers ripped support from the System Settings to fine tune mouse settings, somehow believing that every user now uses libinput.
With respect to response, I find KDE 5 reasonably snappy, unlike KDE 4. Yet TDE is wicked fast compared to KDE 5. I think that feature is something that could sell TDE to many people. TDE seems ideal to keep a lot of dual core systems functional. Helping with that are little things such as preloading Konqueror. I still scratch my head that after a decade and a half the KDE folks still do not preload Dolphin.
I never grew warm and fuzzy about KDE 4, but mostly I am content with what KDE 5 has become. Unlike the KDE 4 days, I stopped my feuding with KDE. A new breed of developers took over from the uncomfortable KDE 4 days and this new breed of developers are much better listening to users.
TDE has a place in the free/libre world. Secure? Probably. Fast? Undoubtedly. Functional and useful? Yes. All of those are good reasons to keep TDE alive. Kind of like the old John Cameron Swayze Timex advertisements of "takes a licking and keeps on ticking." I guess I am showing my age. Possibly the biggest draw for me is I am an old fart and I detest change for the sake of change. Might explain why I drive a 36 year old pickup truck and a 21 year old car. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
TDE is nothing like Windows 98. Firewalls belong at the edge of a LAN or are an operating system function rather than as a desktop function.
Anno domini 2024 Sat, 18 May 19:51:31 -0500 Darrell Anderson via tde-users scripsit:
On 5/18/24 3:06 PM, Chris M via tde-users wrote:
On Fri, 2024-05-17 at 11:19 -0500, Chris M wrote:
In regards to Nik's post about The Orgins of KDE:
I am curious to know what's the backstory on TDE? Why is KDE 3.5 being kept alive all of these years later? And what is TDE's Purpose?
I LOOOOOOOVED KDE 3.5 back in the day, but , I could never get KDE 3 to work right on my machine, like making it see the CDROM etc. But, when I found GNOME2 on Ubuntu 10.10 that became my home, then Unity, and KDE 5 for a little while, TDE for about a week, and MATE for the longest. And now im back to trying TDE.
The reason that I asked this question yesterday, is because, I LOVED KDE 3, but i'm scared to run TDE.
I've been reading on Reddit about TDE and read about how NO Linux distro will carry TDE because its a liability due to some kind of " Internet Stacks" still using KDE 3 code, and how unsafe it is, and how running TDE would be like connecting a Windows 98 PC to the internet without a firewall etc.
What's the backstory? The best person to ask is Timothy Pearson. He forked KDE 3.5 to TDE. The first release was TDE 3.5.11, then 3.5.12, and 3.5.13. There never was a 3.5.14 release, instead the first of the R14 series was released.
The Wikipedia article has a short but fair summary of the history. Not mentioned in the article are reasons why the original core group of developers and maintainers stuck together. One of the reasons is the changes from Qt3 to Qt4. Most if not all of the core group did not like the look-and-feel of Qt4 -- the beginning of flat interfaces and dull colors. The technical members of the group did not like the way Qt4 functioned. There was some discussion about migrating TDE to Qt4, but the technical effort would have been too much. There was effort to provide some support for Qt4, somewhat part of the original reason behind the tqtinterface package.
With the so-called EOL of KDE 3.5 and the premature release of KDE 4, the main backstory is a notable amount of contempt, hatred, distrust, and anger among satisfied KDE 3.5 users.
For a few years TDE had some news coverage and then most of the click-bait news folks stop following TDE. There also was a couple of periods with little TDE development and hence, little news coverage.
Through the years I have read many pundits declare that somehow TDE is not secure. I doubt anybody will offer an argument that Konqueror as a web browser is secure, but just about any web browser can be reasonably secure by disabling JavaShit -- oops -- JavaScript and other modern data mining and tracking "features." On the same note, I don't think anybody has designed a file manager that is in the same class as Konqueror. KDE Dolphin is a fine file manager, but not in the same class.
Throughout the years of reading such claims about security, I have yet to read anybody actually auditing code to show how valid their claims might be. There is very much a prevailing attitude that Qt3 itself no longer is secure, mostly because Qt3 is not new and shiny.
With respect to why distro maintainers do not offer TDE as a primary desktop, there is significant political inertia with both KDE and GNOME. Always has been. Embracing TDE would be seen by some as kicking sand in the face of KDE developers.
The Xfce and MATE folks often get included in distros, but there has to be somebody willing to maintain the packages. The TDE developers do a decent job creating distro packages, but many distro maintainers still do not offer TDE as part of their mainstream collection.
Possibly why TDE falters some with mainstream adoption is TDE remains somewhat a black sheep. One reason is 14 years later, long after all of the spitting and feuding ended, TDE remains a usable and viable desktop and keeps improving. Most people predicted TDE would fade away, much like a lot of free/libre software. Many folks do not like that TDE remains healthy. Many do not like that TDE retains a somewhat old school traditional desktop design rather than everything acting like a smart phone or tablet.
Another reason for the black sheep label is living in /opt purgatory. TDE is not easily installed into the common /usr directory because of potential conflict with KDE. The MATE folks resolved that problem nicely by renaming all of their binaries with a "mate-" prefix. I think TDE could do likewise with a tde- prefix. Installing TDE in /opt creates various issues and the complexity of the starttde shell script attests to the hoops to jump through to avoid conflict.
There remains a strong following of other desktop environments despite the political popularity of KDE and GNOME. I think TDE could gain similar momentum enjoyed by Xfce and MATE. Much like why many to most TDE users prefer TDE rather than KDE, Xfce and MATE users are former GNOME users who dislike what happened to GNOME. One challenge is there are many more KDE developers who can create and offer new kinds of software. A rebuttal to that notion is many people using "old school" software have little to no need or desire for such software.
I think the Xfce and MATE developers made one mistake. Rather than maintain GTK 2 they adopted GTK 3 and their software suffers because they do not control GTK development. To the TDE developers credit they did not make the same mistake. I used both Xfce and MATE for a few years, but adopting GTK3 nonsense ended my dance with them.
I use KDE 5 and TDE. I invested serious sweat equity to trim KDE 5 to essentials, much like TDE. KDE 5 can be tamed but most people are not going to invest such effort. For me, one of the cornerstones was being able to continue using the Oxygen icon theme. Seems the KDE developers have been trying hard for a long time to abandon Oxygen preferring the new fad of flat icons. I use Oxygen with both KDE and TDE and that helps provide me a consistent environment with both.
I stopped having any hopes for KDE 4 the day Akonadi was forced on PIM users. I still refuse to use KDE PIM tools except for KAlarm, where the maintainer sanely changed Akonadi to a plugin.
I do not know how long I will continue using KDE. I have seen changes from 5 to 6 that remind me of the 3.5 to 4 days. For example, the KDE developers ripped support from the System Settings to fine tune mouse settings, somehow believing that every user now uses libinput.
With respect to response, I find KDE 5 reasonably snappy, unlike KDE 4. Yet TDE is wicked fast compared to KDE 5. I think that feature is something that could sell TDE to many people. TDE seems ideal to keep a lot of dual core systems functional. Helping with that are little things such as preloading Konqueror. I still scratch my head that after a decade and a half the KDE folks still do not preload Dolphin.
I never grew warm and fuzzy about KDE 4, but mostly I am content with what KDE 5 has become. Unlike the KDE 4 days, I stopped my feuding with KDE. A new breed of developers took over from the uncomfortable KDE 4 days and this new breed of developers are much better listening to users.
TDE has a place in the free/libre world. Secure? Probably. Fast? Undoubtedly. Functional and useful? Yes. All of those are good reasons to keep TDE alive. Kind of like the old John Cameron Swayze Timex advertisements of "takes a licking and keeps on ticking." I guess I am showing my age. Possibly the biggest draw for me is I am an old fart and I detest change for the sake of change. Might explain why I drive a 36 year old pickup truck and a 21 year old car. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
TDE is nothing like Windows 98. Firewalls belong at the edge of a LAN or are an operating system function rather than as a desktop function.
Good writeup :)
You don't by cance remember where the kdesktop window coriginates from from?
Nik
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Darrell Anderson via tde-users wrote:
Another reason for the black sheep label is living in /opt purgatory. TDE is not easily installed into the common /usr directory because of potential conflict with KDE. The MATE folks resolved that problem nicely by renaming all of their binaries with a "mate-" prefix. I think TDE could do likewise with a tde- prefix. Installing TDE in /opt creates various issues and the complexity of the starttde shell script attests to the hoops to jump through to avoid conflict.
one thing we need in TDE is to develop nice dbus wrapper (like the one that is used in KDE 5). This way we could integrate easily with other applications that are using dbus and take advantage of the system.
For the rest I am also completely on your side. Back in the days I was looking for an OS that works without crashing (like it was Windows) and for a desktop that just works. I hate it when I start the PC and instead of accomplishing the task I had in mind, I had to fix this or that, because it was working yesterday and no today. Also the mentioned attitude of KDE 4 developers - it is FOS, so if it works it works, otherwise it may work again at some indefinite point of time in the future ...
There are some issues with TDE on laptops (networking etc). There is missing SIM card support. Clearly because those things are too modern and TDE is laking the manpower to develop new applications. But on the PC as you mentioned it is tiny and shiny. You start it, you do your work and it does never let you down. This has been my life for the past 15+ years - first with KDE3 and later with TDE.
I am just wondering how many people worldwide are using TDE.
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