I noticed when reinstalling kaffeine-trinity that also installed as "recommends" were :
kdesudo-trinity, kpackage-trinity
I do not use or want either of those on my Debian system and can't see the reason for this.
Although it is not a problem for me to purge them, this could be seen by some Debian users as another example of enforced use of Ubuntu-style sudo on Squeeze/TDE
It is not easy to work out whether installing (especially multiple packages) with "no-recommends" is a good thing or not; that sometimes means reduced functionality.
My concern is, there are probably other TDE packages which behave similarly. I don't know if this counts as a bug or is for some reason intentional.
Any comments?
On Tuesday 20 September 2011 01:31:35 am David Hare wrote:
I noticed when reinstalling kaffeine-trinity that also installed as "recommends" were :
kdesudo-trinity, kpackage-trinity
I do not use or want either of those on my Debian system and can't see the reason for this.
Although it is not a problem for me to purge them, this could be seen by some Debian users as another example of enforced use of Ubuntu-style sudo on Squeeze/TDE
It is not easy to work out whether installing (especially multiple packages) with "no-recommends" is a good thing or not; that sometimes means reduced functionality.
My concern is, there are probably other TDE packages which behave similarly. I don't know if this counts as a bug or is for some reason intentional.
Any comments?
I am a Squeeze-KDE trinity user.
KDE-trinity does seem to have more depends than I would like to see, but as long as they are recommends or suggestions I have control of what gets installed. Afaik 'apt.conf' file will set up a global recommends/suggestion install policy for your system. Some package managers are better than others in showing what is a recommend or suggestion, i personally like 'dselect'
A DE will function fine without recommends & suggestions. Increased functionality is a personal thing, if you want it you will know it and can install as needed.
As far as a bug I would say not necessarily, it is a decision someone made, minds can change, suggest a different possibility.
On 20/09/11 18:36, Greg Madden wrote:
I am a Squeeze-KDE trinity user.
KDE-trinity does seem to have more depends than I would like to see, but as long as they are recommends or suggestions I have control of what gets installed. Afaik 'apt.conf' file will set up a global recommends/suggestion install policy for your system. Some package managers are better than others in showing what is a recommend or suggestion, i personally like 'dselect'
A DE will function fine without recommends& suggestions. Increased functionality is a personal thing, if you want it you will know it and can install as needed.
As far as a bug I would say not necessarily, it is a decision someone made, minds can change, suggest a different possibility.
I use apt-get, which by default installs "recommends". I know how to use apt.conf
My point is that sudo, if wanted on a Debian system, is normally configured by deliberate user action only and has no apparent reason to be a "recommends" of a multimedia application.
Also what has kpackage got to do with multimedia?
On Tue September 20 2011, David Hare <David Hare davidahare@gmail.com> wrote:
On 20/09/11 18:36, Greg Madden wrote:
I am a Squeeze-KDE trinity user.
KDE-trinity does seem to have more depends than I would like to see, but as long as they are recommends or suggestions I have control of what gets installed. Afaik 'apt.conf' file will set up a global recommends/suggestion install policy for your system. Some package managers are better than others in showing what is a recommend or suggestion, i personally like 'dselect'
A DE will function fine without recommends& suggestions. Increased functionality is a personal thing, if you want it you will know it and can install as needed.
As far as a bug I would say not necessarily, it is a decision someone made, minds can change, suggest a different possibility.
I use apt-get, which by default installs "recommends". I know how to use apt.conf
My point is that sudo, if wanted on a Debian system, is normally configured by deliberate user action only and has no apparent reason to be a "recommends" of a multimedia application.
Also what has kpackage got to do with multimedia?
This is REALLY a stretch, but perhaps someone thought that installing a multimedia package would lead to wanting to fiddle with the audio and video drivers on the machine, and that was a good reason to recommend KDE-specific tools for that??
Hey, Greg, I've never used dselect, and some of the Lenny doc seemed to discourage its use. I'm curious: What you you like about it?
Thanks- Douglas
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On Tue September 20 2011, David Hare <David Hare davidahare@gmail.com> wrote:
On 20/09/11 18:36, Greg Madden wrote:
I am a Squeeze-KDE trinity user.
KDE-trinity does seem to have more depends than I would like to see, but as long as they are recommends or suggestions I have control of what gets installed. Afaik 'apt.conf' file will set up a global recommends/suggestion install policy for your system. Some package managers are better than others in showing what is a recommend or suggestion, i personally like 'dselect'
A DE will function fine without recommends& suggestions. Increased functionality is a personal thing, if you want it you will know it and can install as needed.
As far as a bug I would say not necessarily, it is a decision someone made, minds can change, suggest a different possibility.
I use apt-get, which by default installs "recommends". I know how to use apt.conf
My point is that sudo, if wanted on a Debian system, is normally configured by deliberate user action only and has no apparent reason to be a "recommends" of a multimedia application.
Also what has kpackage got to do with multimedia?
This is REALLY a stretch, but perhaps someone thought that installing a multimedia package would lead to wanting to fiddle with the audio and video drivers on the machine, and that was a good reason to recommend KDE-specific tools for that??
Actually, that's it exactly. Typical hack-arounds for inaccessible devices usually include running the offending application as root to make sure that permissions are not part of the problem. Not that I encourage this behaviour, but you have to remember that I inherited the original packaging control files from Ubuntu, and apparently someone there thought this was a good idea...
Why don't you create a bug report listing the various packages that incorrectly recommend sudo, and I'll do a batch commit removing the offending recommends from Debian.
Tim
On 21/09/11 07:26, Timothy Pearson wrote:
This is REALLY a stretch, but perhaps someone thought that installing a multimedia package would lead to wanting to fiddle with the audio and video drivers on the machine, and that was a good reason to recommend KDE-specific tools for that??
Actually, that's it exactly. Typical hack-arounds for inaccessible devices usually include running the offending application as root to make sure that permissions are not part of the problem. Not that I encourage this behaviour, but you have to remember that I inherited the original packaging control files from Ubuntu, and apparently someone there thought this was a good idea...
Why don't you create a bug report listing the various packages that incorrectly recommend sudo, and I'll do a batch commit removing the offending recommends from Debian.
Tim
Thanks Tim. I didn't want to clutter the bug-tracker with invalid stuff, without doing some research. Maybe root is needed to set up sound server, cdrom devices... but should not have to use only sudo on a Debian box.
I never used Ubuntu, far as I read the root account is disabled altogether and sudo used for everything, unlike Debian.
Both kdesudo-trinity and sudo-trinity are purged from my system and it runs extremely well.
<apt-cache showpkg kdesudo-trinity> lists as Reverse Depends (I think that includes the recommends): Reverse Depends: kde-trinity,kdesudo-trinity kaffeine-trinity,kdesudo-trinity kaffeine-trinity-dbg,kdesudo-trinity
so they are probably the only ones in question. Kde-trinity I see is a meta for the entire desktop and lists kdesudo-trinity as an actual dependency (I don't use kde-trinity, preferring to install from a custom package list)
I looked also at sudo-trinity <apt-cache showpkg sudo-trinity> : Reverse Depends: sudo-ldap-trinity,sudo-trinity sudo-ldap-trinity,sudo-trinity kde-core-trinity,sudo-trinity smb4k-trinity,sudo-trinity kdpkg-trinity,sudo-trinity
kde-core-trinity seems another meta, not installed here. Note sudo-trinity is an actual dependency of smb4k. I don't know how sudo-trinity will affect the system as I prefer to use it (sudo disabled) Fortunately for me I don't use smb4k.
By the way, a reminder to new Debian/TDE users that normal kdesu is still broken for Trinity apps unless used as : <kdesu application --nonewdcop> with kdesudo-trinity purged (maybe also sudo-trinity) and ~/.trinity/share/config/kdesurc manually edited.
Regarding package managers, as I understand it, the important thing is to stick with just one, usually aptitude or apt-get, to be sure the same database and logs are used. Nobody much uses dselect now but I suppose that is a valid choice if preferred, else it wouldn't exist. A desktop-specific manager (kpackage) seems to me asking for trouble.
On Tuesday 20 September 2011 09:53:41 pm DMW@isomedia.com wrote:
Hey, Greg, I've never used dselect, and some of the Lenny doc seemed to discourage its use. I'm curious: What you you like about it?
Thanks- Douglas
Simple really, I know how to use it really well for my needs. I have been using it for about 10 years so I am very comfortable with it.
I do use aptitude and apt-get, from a command line, great tools also.
Dselect has been deprecated in favor of new shining tools. The thing about suggested preferred tools, ... Debian deprecated apt-get in favor of aptitude in Lenny, Squeeze reversed that suggestion, apt-get is okay to use now, dselect will probably never make a comeback though :-)
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David Hare -
DMW＠isomedia.com -
Greg Madden -
Timothy Pearson