A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
Thanks!
Tim
On 02/11/2012 03:53 PM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead?
XFCE, because it's the next most functional and powerful desktop that's not way over-bloated and full of more eye candy than function. (that I know of, at least)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
Actually I have switched some machines and users, because of bugs in TDE. :( XFCE works very well for the most part, but has some glaring, irritating holes. For example, the file manager is primitive compared to Konqueror; there's not even a file search program; you have to find & edit text files just to edit the menu; and a few other things I forget at the moment because this machine has TDE. :)
Honestly I'd go back to using dwm. If I cant use a fully featured environment, I might as well give them up all together. On Feb 11, 2012 7:05 PM, "Dan Youngquist" dan@homestead-products.com wrote:
On 02/11/2012 03:53 PM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead?
XFCE, because it's the next most functional and powerful desktop that's not way over-bloated and full of more eye candy than function. (that I know of, at least)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing
or suboptimal in the other environment.
Actually I have switched some machines and users, because of bugs in TDE. :( XFCE works very well for the most part, but has some glaring, irritating holes. For example, the file manager is primitive compared to Konqueror; there's not even a file search program; you have to find & edit text files just to edit the menu; and a few other things I forget at the moment because this machine has TDE. :)
-- PGP key: http://homestead-products.com/**pubkey.htmhttp://homestead-products.com/pubkey.htm
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On Sat, 2012-02-11 at 17:53 -0600, Timothy Pearson wrote:
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
<snip> In our case, we are entirely a VDI shop and the advanced graphics of Gnome3 and KDE4 present a problem. That is beside the learning curve and the tendency in KDE4 to put new ideas ahead of needed functionality.
We would probably look at XFCE although LXDE would be a candidate. The latter seems more difficult for end users to customize.
TDE is by far and away the best balance we have found for our specific needs. It offers the tight integration and customization of KDE without the KDE4 problems. XFCE and LXDE are still a bit too light for our needs. Thanks - John
On Saturday 11 February 2012 23:53:32 Timothy Pearson wrote:
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
LXDE probably. And I would certainly not abandon Linux. I had had the idea that OSX might be half-way usable, but today an Apple Store technician told my granddaughter that she should reboot her Macbook Pro and not just let it run and run; and that it got in a mess because it couldn't wake up properly if it had gone into hibernation. (We're talking days or at most weeks here, not months or years.) I thought that I must be back in the days of Win98.
I might have a look at one of the BSDs, but I think that my allegiance would still lie with Linux.
LXDE is simply not as functional, flexible and configurable as TDE. And it is not as easy to control from the keyboard.
Detractors will not be able to see that. To detractors we are outmoded fossils, who ought to catch up with the future, and not cling onto an already forgotten past. (I know!! I meet them.) Well, you can't really expect anything better, of an elderly female, than fossil behaviour, can you?? ;-)
Why not KDE4?? Have you got a year or two?
Why not Gnome? Have you read the reviews of Gnome3??
Lisi
* On 2012 11 Feb 18:18 -0600, Lisi wrote:
Why not KDE4?? Have you got a year or two?
After the release of KDE 4.8 a couple of weeks ago I installed Kubuntu 11.10 and then updated to 4.8 via the PPA. It's nice and just about won me over except that I prefer a number of GTK apps and if the GTK-Qt engine is used the GTK apps suffer from strange behavior such as the Page-Up/Page-Dn keys didn't work! Okay, I could go back to a native GTK theme and then I have the odd desktop look. The second strike is no sane Pulse Audio control program written in Qt so I had to install the latest PAvucontrol so I could get per app sink switching. The result was installing about half of GNOME!
Kubuntu will stay on the partition as it lets me connect to my phone via BlueTooth which I can't seem to get working in Debian.
Why not Gnome? Have you read the reviews of Gnome3??
I used GNOME 3 shell on my laptop running Wheezy and other than wonky session management, I had no real complaints. That is until I got impatient and updated it to Sid to get the 3.2.1 shell and then the fun began. It was actually less stable than the 3.0.1 version it replaced although I could install various extensions. Compared to Unity GNOME 3 Shell is sane and quite able to be controlled via the keyboard. I may revisit GNOME after 3.4 is released or a few versions down the road.
Still, the lack of a screensaver or even being able to integrate Xscreensaver and a few other niggles caused me to jump back to XFCE but it was acting quite strange as well. I finally just overwrote the partition with a new net install of Wheezy last week using the XFCE desktop task and things are quite stable. The previous installation had started life as LMDE about a year ago and even though I'd excised the Mint bits, it was never quite a pure Debian installation for some reason. I could go with Xubuntu but I prefer the more vanilla Debian for development.
Why have I not stuck with TDE? Probably why I did not stick with KDE4--GTK app integration and a few other niggles such as two Wicd icons appearing in the tray on every startup. Konqueror is old enough to have problems with some websites. I like a second browser in addition to Iceweasel/Firefox. Perhaps I just feel more comfortable at the near bleeding edge. ;-) My brother uses TDE on one of his desktops although I think for his use case XFCE is just as simple and lighter on resources.
For now XFCE is serving my needs well. I'm sticking with Debian. Neither MS nor Apple need apply! I keep tabs on this list just to see what direction the project is taking.
- Nate >>
On 2012/02/11 17:53 (GMT-0600) Timothy Pearson composed:
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
Nothing hypothetical:
I use KDE3, because there are no repos with pre-built TDE for openSUSE, and there is no Debian I can live with for daily desktop use. At the rate it's going, another year or two and KDE4 might be usable (assuming anyone ever decides to try to finish restoring discarded KDE3 functionality), maybe around 4.10.1. Not likely Gnome will ever be suitable here. Actually I use two desktops kept booted 24/7: KDE3, and OS/2 WPS.
On Saturday 11 February 2012 06:53:32 pm Timothy Pearson wrote:
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
Thanks!
Tim
I sure hope this is *purely* hypothetical. :-)
If I had to I would try KDE3 in openSUSE, or Xfce, or even KDE4. I hear it's becoming usable.
But would I ever miss the swiss army knife of file managers that is Konqueror!
I can't see myself ever going back to Windows.
Enlightenment?
I don't know, I'm not happy with anything other than KDE3 or TDE.
Andy
On Saturday 11 February 2012 06:53:32 pm Timothy Pearson wrote:
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
Thanks!
Tim
I sure hope this is *purely* hypothetical. :-)
It is purely hypothetical at the moment. Of course donations to the project help to make sure that it stays hypothetical in the future. ;-)
What triggered this was a new salvo from KDE4 claiming that 4.8 is the best desktop ever, and that those backwards TDE luddites should just use a minimalist window manager if they don't like KDE4. I'm trying to prove them wrong. :-)
Tim
Timothy Pearson wrote:
What triggered this was a new salvo from KDE4 claiming that 4.8 is the best desktop ever, and that those backwards TDE luddites should just use a minimalist window manager if they don't like KDE4. I'm trying to prove them wrong. :-)
Draw a graph of Usability vs Features. It should look something like a parabola.
Too few features has low usability, because the interface is dumbed down. Gnome has a tendency to dip down into this "our users drank lead paint as babies" area too often.
Plus it has one of the most hideous and least usable file open/save dialogs in the known universe. There are alien species in distant galaxies that interact with their computers by flinging fresh excrement (a bit like YouTube commenters) who have a better file open/save interface than Gnome's.
Too many features (or perhaps I should say, "features" in scare quotes) also has low usability, because it's too damn hard to use, and requires too much computing grunt for useless eye-candy and poorly thought out functionality that sounds good in principle but isn't in practice. KDE 4 spends most of its time hanging around there, probably waiting for Akonadi or Nepomuk to finish whatever pointless task they're doing so the computer will become responsive again.
Somewhere in the middle is a happy medium, where you have the maximum usability from all the features you actually need and none of the cruft that you don't -- that was KDE 3, and that is TDE.
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario.
A very depressing thought. "Oldstable" would be an option to keep a decent desktop.
Some downsides I seen in others;
Alien style Ugly in appearance Limited user-configurability (menus, panels...) Limited file manager functionality (complex settings or other apps required to do what konq does natively e.g. sftp) Dependence on gnome/kde4 applications (plus their baggage) to make up for what is missing Unwanted bells and whistles in your face Bloat, excess cpu and ram usage (requires new and expensive hardware)
The gap between minimalist and bloat is too wide. XFCE seems the best of the mainstream and is used here also but for overall functionality against resource usage, TDE wins and is main desktop
Bugs? they all have them.
David
On Sat February 11 2012, Steven D'Aprano <"Steven D'Aprano" steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
Timothy Pearson wrote:
What triggered this was a new salvo from KDE4 claiming that 4.8 is the best desktop ever, and that those backwards TDE luddites should just use a minimalist window manager if they don't like KDE4. I'm trying to prove them wrong. :-)
Draw a graph of Usability vs Features. It should look something like a parabola.
Too few features has low usability, because the interface is dumbed down. Gnome has a tendency to dip down into this "our users drank lead paint as babies" area too often.
Plus it has one of the most hideous and least usable file open/save dialogs in the known universe. There are alien species in distant galaxies that interact with their computers by flinging fresh excrement (a bit like YouTube commenters) who have a better file open/save interface than Gnome's.
Too many features (or perhaps I should say, "features" in scare quotes) also has low usability, because it's too damn hard to use, and requires too much computing grunt for useless eye-candy and poorly thought out functionality that sounds good in principle but isn't in practice. KDE 4 spends most of its time hanging around there, probably waiting for Akonadi or Nepomuk to finish whatever pointless task they're doing so the computer will become responsive again.
Somewhere in the middle is a happy medium, where you have the maximum usability from all the features you actually need and none of the cruft that you don't -- that was KDE 3, and that is TDE.
That's a good point on the Usability vs. Features graph. Never thought of it before, but it does seem to be true.
Alternatives ... much to my surprise, I saw a previous reply mention still using OS/2. I guess I'd investigate that, or look for my old FVWM config files.
Douglas
On Sunday 12 February 2012 01:02:33 Timothy Pearson wrote:
What triggered this was a new salvo from KDE4 claiming that 4.8 is the best desktop ever, and that those backwards TDE luddites should just use a minimalist window manager if they don't like KDE4.
After the last prolonged attack from a KDE4 lover (and there had been many snide remarks and attacks), who called me, among other less pleasant things, a KDE4 resister; I told him that even if KDE4 were to improve, I would be unlikely ever to use it because the KDE4 community is just too unpleasant.
You illustrate this well.
So on the list of TDE's advantages I ought to have said: has a wonderful, helpful, community.
Lisi
TDE running here on a single-core AMD 3200XP with konsole and knotes open. Headers from "htop" in the konsole:
CPU 3.0% Mem 119/2026MB Swp```` 0/2000MB
Compares closely to XFCE.. but with the elegance, style, configurability and range of applications (yes, plenty spare power to run them) of TDE. . To switch that a minimalist desktop would be a regression. I tried kde4, never mind the style, it crawls.
Gnome3 took the same direction as kde4 and is already in Debian Testing. It is for high-end machines. Gnome2 (in the mainstream) will be axed.
For those who did not know, Luddism was actually a revolutionary movement against new technology being deployed in a way that impoverished ordinary peoples' lives. It was countered by the use of agents provocateurs, military force, penal transportations and mass executions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite.
KDE4 spokespersons should choose their words more carefully (or is arrogance their intention?)
David
* On 2012 11 Feb 19:04 -0600, Timothy Pearson wrote:
What triggered this was a new salvo from KDE4 claiming that 4.8 is the best desktop ever, and that those backwards TDE luddites should just use a minimalist window manager if they don't like KDE4. I'm trying to prove them wrong. :-)
I find this quite interesting, perhaps telling. Comments like that belie fear. Just what is the fear being expressed? I can understand frustration at Canonical dropping Kubuntu to a "community" developed edition with no offcial support from Canonical but TDE would seem to be a non-issue. That kind of reaction sounds eerily similar to certain proprietary houses who need to proclaim that version V is it and version X is worse than yesterday's news. Repeat for version 7 versus version V, etc.
I can also understand frustration at the KDE devs feeling they've built a better desktop all of these years but being treated as second class citizens by many distributions (pre GPL Qt hitory). For all of the effort KDE has not been the default desktop on most distributions. Perhaps that frustration gets directed back here somewhat. But fear that people are still enjoying and improving their older work just seems misplaced to me unless they know deep down that they've embarked on a direction that did not interest their former users.
- Nate >>
Nate Bargmann wrote:
- On 2012 11 Feb 19:04 -0600, Timothy Pearson wrote:
What triggered this was a new salvo from KDE4 claiming that 4.8 is the best desktop ever, and that those backwards TDE luddites should just use a minimalist window manager if they don't like KDE4. I'm trying to prove them wrong. :-)
I find this quite interesting, perhaps telling. Comments like that belie fear. Just what is the fear being expressed?
KDE was always the "second choice" behind Gnome for the major distros. With user revolt against KDE4, many years of people accusing the developers of releasing alpha-quality (or worse!) code as production-ready software, and bad press, the KDE community surely feels fear that they're becoming irrelevant.
And when people are fearful, they strike out, and it is a normal part of human psychology that people in a peaking order rarely strike up at those with higher status, but often down at those with lower status. And TDE has very little status and recognition compared to KDE, its supporters are mostly former KDE supporters (hence backsliders and traitors and heretics), and so gets most of KDE's ire.
On Sunday 12 February 2012 01:02:33 Timothy Pearson wrote:
On Saturday 11 February 2012 06:53:32 pm Timothy Pearson wrote:
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
Thanks!
Tim
I sure hope this is *purely* hypothetical. :-)
It is purely hypothetical at the moment. Of course donations to the project help to make sure that it stays hypothetical in the future. ;-)
What triggered this was a new salvo from KDE4 claiming that 4.8 is the best desktop ever, and that those backwards TDE luddites should just use a minimalist window manager if they don't like KDE4. I'm trying to prove them wrong. :-)
Tim
KDE4 is simply non usable in a production environment compared to KDE3.5. Its slower, requires more mouse clicks and is less configurable. Some clients have described it as a vista clone...
On Sat February 11 2012 15:53:32 Timothy Pearson wrote:
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
We'd use TDE even after it closed down as long as we could make TDE work with some supported version of Debian.
(Just as we still use Debian's ancient kdebluetooth with TDE.)
After a few years we'd probably have to switch to XFCE unless KDE4 had by then started on some saner course.
--Mike Bird
On Sunday 12 February 2012 12:36:36 Mike Bird wrote:
On Sat February 11 2012 15:53:32 Timothy Pearson wrote:
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
We'd use TDE even after it closed down as long as we could make TDE work with some supported version of Debian.
(Just as we still use Debian's ancient kdebluetooth with TDE.)
After a few years we'd probably have to switch to XFCE unless KDE4 had by then started on some saner course.
--Mike Bird
IMO. Well said, Mike. My thoughts exactly. G.
PS. I try to avoid "Me too" posts, but here it seems appropriate.
On 02/11/2012 05:53 PM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
Thanks!
Tim
Hypothetical Example:
There is no comparison. It is the tools included in trinity that out of the many -- Trinity is born, the suite of apps, kate, kwrite, kcalc, kpdf, basket, kcolorchooser, kruler, quanta+, kcharselect, kmag, kdiff3, konqueror --profile filemanagement, gwenview, kview, kslideshow, kiconedit, kcoloredit, ksnapshot, kmix, kxmledit, khexedit, kbarcode, kjobviewer, kmenu, kicker, kded, kpager, etc... and that hasn't even made it out of the "Utilities" menu.... All sewn together with a backend that provides fine-grained user control over the look, feel and behavior of the powerful desktop environment.
All of the apps are clean and efficient and have all of the latest data manipulation and syntax files along with the smart implementations of plugins and templates and snippets that you simply cannot find in other app on other desktops. The also communicated in a distributed computing environment via fish:// or sftp:// -- that is advanced capability no matter what desktop you look at.
Which desktop? K4 - no way, it is in worse shape that TDE and it has a bizillion kids working on it. Gnome2 - that is a contender, but the applications are not nearly as robust as the TDE apps. Gnome3 - no chance, it has more bugs than K4.
Simply put, no other desktop has the suite of tools that TDE provides to "just get work done" no matter what type of work you need to do. I have switched many, many times over the past 12 years of Linux Desktop use, with WindowMaker, WM2, blackbox, twm, IceWM, E-16, enlightenment, fvwm2, Gnome2, Gnome3, KDE4, openbox, pekwm, sawfish, XFCE, but every time, the shortcomings were so apparent, I have always come back to KDE3 (usually within a few hours or at most a few weeks) Nothing beats the functionality and capability TDE provides that meet the needs of virtually every task at hand.
If it all cratered, and it was if KDE3 vanished into oblivion, then I would make a bitter move back to fluxbox or enlightenment. None have anything close to the tools provided by default on TDE, but both are lightweight and clean desktops. Without TDE, it's not really a "Which desktop would you use?" question, at that point that question would be irrelevant. The actual question would be "What will you hunt and find to add to your collection of tools that would allow you to try and get back the capability you had at your fingertips in TDE?" That would become the relevant question. The desktop wouldn't matter. You would simply have a collection of tools you would have to drag around and install on any desktop no matter the one you would choose.
Using another desktop is like going to a bar and listening to the weekend band making noise for your enjoyment. Use TDE is like a night to the New York Philharmonic. The difference is that complete.
On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 12:53 AM, Timothy Pearson kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net wrote:
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
Thanks!
Tim
I'd use KDE 4 in an acceptable implementation. It has evolved to be quite usable with a middle range computer (Core 2 duo at aroung 2 Ghz) and it did retain some of the "logic" of original KDE. It's a bit bloated, but with quite a lot of work you can bring it back to it's roots (which means removing a good part of what is supposed to make it so great).
Gnome 2 is barely acceptable (with AWN), Gnome 3 and Co are not at this point. I've disliked Windows from the start and don't like OS X's interface so much. XFCE lacks some features I feel I need.
Maybe I'd go back to OS/2 and the Workplace Shell (just kidding, but I really liked this one :)
I stick to KDE 3 /TDE because I feel is mature, simple, efficient, and has Konqueror as a file manager.
Thierry
On 11/02/2012 23:53, Timothy Pearson wrote:
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Remain on whatever is the latest TDE at the time for as long as possible. I currently use Debian but also Windows (unfortuantely), AIX and RIscOS so I would not be looking for a replacement desktop.
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
KDE4 & Gnome are not acceptably usable from a business/get some real work done point of view. Furthermore, I couldn't get by without Amarok 1.4 :)
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
Usability.
Regards, Mike.
On Saturday 11 February 2012 23:53:32 Timothy Pearson wrote:
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
I looked into a few other desktop environments when KDE3 was replaced by KDE4 in Debian Squeeze. I'd switched to KDE3 from Gnome2 in Debian Lenny because Gnome2 had become too dumbed down and restrictive.
The best of the DEs I tried, before finding Trinity, was XFCE but I found it rather primitive and crude in comparison to KDE3/Trinity.
Why on earth would I want to abandon Linux?
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
The primary reasons are the customisablity of the appearance of KDE3/Trinity and a few 'essential' apps that work exactly how I want them to work, such as konqueror, kate, konsole, ksysguard and the quick launcher. Whilst alternatives for konqueror, kate, konsole and the quick launcher are usable I haven't found anything can that can come close to replacing ksysguard. I'm a bit neurotic about system monitoring and half of my panel is occupied with docked ksysguard signal plotters.
In addition, I don't use (or even have) any desktop icons, so any DE that relies upon starting apps from the desktop, as opposed to via a panal menu or quick launcher applet is a complete non-starter for me (having to 'reveal' the desktop just to start another app, only to have to restore all the windows again afterwards, interrupts what I'm trying to do and just seems ridiculous).
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
Thanks!
Tim
I started working with (mainframe) computers just before my 18th birthday and I'm 54 now - I know how _I_ want to work and don't appreciate anyone trying to force me to work how _they_ think I should work.
The bottom line is that people continue to use KDE3/Trinity because they _want_ to; whilst DE dev teams are entirely welcome to offer alternatives, anyone saying that users _should_ change and who then criticise anyone who doesn't is just trying to impose their habits and opinions and on everyone else.
Regards,
LeeE
Hi Timothy,
please excuse my poor english, but my german is much better.
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Never ever KDE4, because it is to unsecure to use and didn't met my needs. For example if I pull off the clock (or window list) from the control panel it is a horror to reconfigure it. So I usually use a backup of the .kde directory with the settings.
On my Laptop - the most powerfull computer in my environment (Core-duo and 2 GB RAM) - I have Squeeze installed, with modified KDE4. Modified means that mysql, nepomuk and akonadi are disabled by renaming them so that they could not be started, because if they should be deinstalled, kde will be deinstalled to.
Of course the modification didn't allow the usage of KMail - so I now uses Icedove.
Usually in KDE4 I only start a xterm or kvm machines to work with, except for iceweasel and icedove.
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
On my workstation I still use Lenny connected to a two monitor system with twinview/xinemera configuration and this is great. KDE 3 scales excellent i.e. panorama pictures are spread across both monitors and the control panel could be adjusted, where to stay - on left or right or scaled across both or where ever I want. Also for the greeter dialog screen coordinates could be given that it stays on on of the monitors.
KDE4 allways handle the screen as two different monitors. I have two control panel which stay on each monitor. Pictures didn't scale across the screens and the arrogant KDE4-boys realy say "the split your picture and install the splits separat for the two screens" - grrrr! I need to work with two screens and if the desktop environment can't handle them, I can't use them. (BTW Gnome also handle my screens like KDE 4, so it is no alternativ.) It's even more terrible, if I connect a second monitor to my laptop and use it. After switch off the second monitor and even reboot the laptop (!), the greeter stays on the turned off monitor! I have to switch on the monitor to log in and have to disable more than once the second monitor via xrand - that is terrible!
Also the windowmanager kwin is buggy! If I logout from a xdm-session of a KDE 4 computer (i.e. my laptop) there is a line with around 8 to 10 pixels of the background picture left on screen. Also if a kvm window switches from full screen mode back to windowed mode there are pixel errors in the window frame. So someone didn't count or calculate the screen or window high correctly.
One of the features I realy miss in KDE 4 is the ability to drag a desktop icon into the control panel. KDE 4 only allows to pull elements out of the control panel - grrrr!
Rolf PS: I used KDE since Version 0.8
On Saturday 11 February 2012 23:53:32 Timothy Pearson wrote:
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
My other (work) desktop is Linux Mint Debian Edition, which is based around GNOME 2. I would probably move this desktop from Debian/TDE to Linux Mint as well, provided that the ongoing developments around GNOME3 mitigation in Mint keep it usable.
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I still rely on kmail for my personal mail and TDE is configured to my personal requirements in ways that aren't supported elsewhere. The configurable recent apps shortcuts and the ability to browse the file system from the menu are just a couple of the really handy features I have found elsewhere.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
Debian is still in KDE 4.4, which I used for around 2 months, so I tried it properly. I didn't find anything that was better than KDE3 and plenty that was worse. On top of that it was pretty flaky with basic functionality still being buggy on a .4 release. Why wouldn't I avoid it.
Neil Youngman
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When upgrading from Lenny to Squeeze (still not done on two of the three boxes I manage) I have made/will make the switch from KDE 3 to Trinity for all the reasons already cited.
I will however be MUCH happier when the bugs delineated in thread "Strange behaviour using removable media" (started 2012-01-02) of this list are fixed.
Ken Heard
On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 6:53 PM, Timothy Pearson kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net wrote:
A hypothetical poll for users here.... If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-) Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I've been using Linux since 1999. My first was Red Hat v5 which had gnome or something. Gave up because I didn't like it. Then I found S.u.S.E. v5.3, which had KDE 1.x. Wow! this is what I was missing. Having come from a DOS and then OS/2 background, KDE was a lot like the Workplace Shell. I could get things done easily and the desktop made sense. Over the years I've used many distros and tried many DEs. I still stick with openSUSE and KDE3(thanks the to hard and dedicated work of the KDE3 repo maintainers). I've debated trying TDE, but haven't because of a lack of openSUSE support and because the current KDE3 works fine for me.
When KDE4 was introduced in openSUSE 11.0, I repeatedly showed that KDE4 was slower and more resource hungry than KDE3(and because it had both, openSUSE used some KDE4 libs & installed some KDE4 programs by defaut, so that caused KDE3 to use more libs/memory/resources than KDE4 by itself). I also despise the whole shift of the KDE4 team. WTF? I don't need a desktop with bling and garbage. And telling me I CAN'T have a regular desktop, that their new desktop idea was better. And that I was wrong for not agreeing with them. Who the hell do they think they are? If I wanted that kind of desktop I would use Mac OS X. Then having so many KDE4 adopters tell me that I was wrong for prefering KDE3 over KDE4, especially considering how buggy and unstable and feature incomplete KDE4 was. I helped insure that openSUSE 11.1 came with KDE3 BECAUSE of KDE4's issues. However, and understandably, the openSUSE devs dropped KDE3 support because of lack of resources for both. My server is still running 11.0/KDE 3.5.9.
Would I give up linux? Nope. Will continue to use it no matter what for the foreseeable furture. I've looked at LXDE, and while it's usable and light, KDE3/TDE is by far a better setup. Also, I use KWord alot (on WinDoZe I use Wordpad - does all I need). LXDE is a good choice for an older laptop with low RAM and Firefox. Using Firefox with KDE uses more resources, where LXDE is gtk2 based, so it has a slightly lower footprint from what I have found. It's all I need on such a machine.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
TDE exists because the open source model allows people to fork stuff because they don't like the direction it's going. A small minority didn't like the direction of KDE4. Others just used KDE4 because it came with the newer versions of the distro and they learned to tolerate it and even like it.
As for comparisons, I wouldn't bother. You're not going to convince a KDE4 user that KDE3 is better nor a KDE3 user that KDE4 is better and so on. Obviously you USE TDE and you started the project to maintain it so it could continue and grow. That's all the reason you need and all the reason I need. I would invite them to give TDE a try. If they don't like so be it. It's obviously grown and improved since 3.5.10, so they may find they like it. If they don't, then that's ok as well.
Just my not so humble opinion.
Hi,
First, sorry for the delay of answer for this quite important question. ;) I have read some of the other comments and must say that I agree many of them of course, especially the one that points out the "way of thinking" of KDE4 teams. If I'd make a synthesis, I'd say they are acting as if they were MacOS X developpers but without the legitimacy of it (if it exists ;) ).
I've been using Linux since only 6 years and I switched quickly to KDE because it happens to be the set of applications and features I was looking for, simply. And to me, this disappear simply with the 4th version. I think that anyway, the "desktop" manager/set is not that important. By now, xfce or gnome can be customized to nearly act the way one needs for instance and even Gnome 3 (though it lacks of colors management of course). I discuss every day at work with many Linux users and the choice of the desktop looks more and more secondary. About their desktop, and not talking about the distros, they know more the words "Unity" or "Firefox" or "Google Chrome" than what really is Gnome or Gnome-shell... so KDE4, what a joke :D. For the most handy, it's just another "look and feel". I myself been revamping completely my desktops recently, having now two boots with Debian Squeeze and Linux Mint Lisa. At the final, and for the features, they behave exactly the same or near. What I use for Desktop with big displays is Compiz and Cairo-dock. The rest is gtk, Qt or even native X11 + metacity or equivalent and I really care a very little about desktop managers as compiz do what I need or near (even if it still lacks of features in comparison to KDE3/Kdesktop, but what does not ? lol) and I have the ability to switch to TDE looking on both, when needed.
So what's is important, imho, is the set of applications and their features (whether common and/or specific). My personal thoughts goes to K3B, Kaffeine, Konqueror, Kate/Kwrite but any KDE application with its settings and common abilities are important (window management, shared settings, ease of use). I miss Kommander, in a way, but nothing can be done about this I think. I'm happy with that. Maybe you simply should focus your efforts on that (my humble user opinion again). Even Kicker does not need any revamping as it does what any dock can do and is needed (even if it is, from far, better than any of the trials to make a decent and usable dock by the KDE4 team).
NOW, THE IMPORTANT INFORMATION :
KDE4 is still a joke, and it just needs to read this comment (and many of the above of the thread) about a KDE4 fan while he desperately tries to use KDE4 with separate X screens, which is a very handy and basic way to use a desktop with two screens that KDE4 is stil not able to handle WITHOUT THE HELP OF THOSE SO STUPID AND LIMITED LIGHT WEIGHT DESKTOP MANAGERS YOU SHOULD DOWNGRADE TO IF YOU DISLIKE KDE4 LOLOLOLOLOL. I always used my desktop with separate X screens, and KDE3 was from far the best way to it as, well, it just doesn't care about you having 1, 2 or 25 screens displays : it just works ! Just read here and laugh : http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=12180&sid=afd964cc5401c04a... They even try to point out to X11 as responsible. That's just pitiful.
SO : KEEP UP !!!!
That's all
If you're interested, just take a look to my (nearly) present desktops : http://plmegalo.deviantart.com/art/Debian-Solid-Steel-282752616 http://plmegalo.deviantart.com/art/Mint-Elegance-280411306
Pierre
Le samedi 11 février 2012 à 17:53 -0600, Timothy Pearson a écrit :
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
Thanks!
Tim
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kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net wrote:
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would
be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
Unlikely to abandon Linux although with KDE4 I might as well go back to wincrap. Putting together a DE/UI which has the equivalent functionality would be quite a bit of work to approach what TDE is out of the box.
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
KDE4 is all flash and dazzle and has lost the functionality that kde3 brought to the table. I've tried a fair number of DEs and they range from tolerable to abysmal (my personal opinions here).
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to
fall back on to counter detractors.
Simply put, TDE provides a nice UI and plenty of useful applications. It is fairly light compared to the current crop of UIs being dumped on us these days. Out of the box it has a impressively high usability. The newer stuff eats far too many cycles on flash and dazzle and usability depends on the user putting together (often manually) a usable desktop.
From what I have heard since the fiasco of KDE4 was dumped on us, it is not a small number who were offended by that mess. A number of people have just bit the bullet and took what came others have stuck with old distros which still had KDE3 (deb5, etc.).
Whomevers idea is was to fork kde3 to Trinity IMSNHO had a very thorough and well informed idea and obviously understood what the loss to the community would be should it just die. The loss of TDE would be a blow.
"Newer, therefor better" is a disease that should be stamped out :-). Ain't always so. In the case of KDE4 it is definitely not so :-).
73.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 12:05 AM, Chris Reid vmlist2@gmail.com wrote:
Unlikely to abandon Linux although with KDE4 I might as well go back to wincrap.
I find this unjust. I also have criticism as to KDE 4, but this comments seems to imply that only the DE is important, not the OS. Whatever UI you get it's Windows I can't like to use. Besides, KDE 4 can be very acceptable if correctly implemented.
KDE4 is all flash and dazzle and has lost the functionality that kde3 brought to the table. I've tried a fair number of DEs and they range from tolerable to abysmal (my personal opinions here).
Here I totaly agree
Thierry
Here's an interesting note on the direction that the GNOME devs are taking. Looks to be another ME TO wanting to be more like Apple:
http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/a-new-approach-to-gnome-applicatio...
Another advantage of TDE/KDE3 over other newer DEs is that we are not forced to use search(like the useless and depreciated beagle and nepomuk/stringi)that can thrash a hard drive even if it's never used and that KDE3/TDE is more modular, so if you don't want something you can (generally) remove it.
One of my biggest peeves about distros/linux over the years has been the ridiculous dependencies(some of which come from the programs). WHY do I have to install avahi to play KDE3 games in openSUSE 11.0? Why do I have to install Palmpilot utils to use a PIM? I could cite a books worth of crap like this that has been the bane of my experiences with Linux over the years.
Modularity is important to me. When I'm using an older laptop with limited resources, I don't want to waste them on stuff to support something I don't have or don't want.
Just my opinion.
On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 14:37:14 -0500 Larry Stotler larrystotler@gmail.com wrote:
One of my biggest peeves about distros/linux over the years has been the ridiculous dependencies(some of which come from the programs). WHY do I have to install avahi to play KDE3 games in openSUSE 11.0?
Non-rhetorically? Presumably because openSUSE has chosen to treat an optional dependency of kdelibs as mandatory--the chain is kdelibs-3.5.10 -> kdnssd-avahi -> avahi. Most binary distros seem to compile in everything they can, presumably on the basis that someone might need it someday, and when they do, it had better be there. It's a valid approach, but not one I like, which is one of the reasons I'm still with Gentoo--it's good at treating optional dependencies as genuinely optional.
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12.02.2012 03:53, Timothy Pearson wrote:
A hypothetical poll for users here....
If TDE were to close down, which desktop would you use instead? You would be allowed to abandon Linux entirely in this scenario. ;-)
XFCE, something from WindowMaker camp, or - if theese two wouldn't satisfy my needs - KDE4.
Please state why you have not already switched; i.e. what item are missing or suboptimal in the other environment.
I just like the concept of "Classic" desktop approach without "fancy" stuff that turns desktop into "Active places filled with rainbow-colored widgets". Speed and stability is another concern. KDE 3.5 and TDE 3.5 as its successor are pretty slim-and-fast for nowdays workstations, they are free from KDE4 Plasma and Gnome 3 crazy stuff, and they simply work "transparently" - I just don't even notice that there's something like DE I interact with, my feel is like I'm directly working with the apps I want.
I am curious as to why TDE still exists and need some concrete examples to fall back on to counter detractors.
Speed, stability, simplicity, and IMO the best implementation of the "Classic" PC desktop approach.
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