Hi,
I've just upgraded a couple of my Debian Squeeze systems to Trinity V3.5.13 and I've hit a couple of problems straight away, one very serious and the other less so. I haven't checked the full Trinity/KDE suite yet for any other problems but the two I've had so far mean I'm going to have to regress - which will take a lot of time and will not be fun.
The lesser of the two problems is that ksysguard can no longer see the lm-sensors readings. Xsensors still worked, confirming that lm-sensors was still ok, so I tried regressing ksysguardd & ksysguard back to V3.5.12, which was only partly successfull; whilst ksysguard V3.5.12 would now pick up the lm-sensors data when run as a desktop app, the panel applet failed completely, telling me I should check my installation.
The more serious problem concerns the changes to kdm and the kdm greeter. One of the systems I upgraded is used primarily as a render node and has no keyboard, mouse or monitor attached to it - I maintain and configure it entirely via vnc. I noticed that, after logging into it via ssh and running 'top', kdm_greet was 'thrashing', using ~99% cpu.
When I actually started a Trinity session kdm_greet cpu dropped to ~85% but artsd was now using ~10% cpu and kicker was using ~2% cpu. After artsd 'timed-out' its cpu usage dropped and kdm_greet picked up the slack, rising back up to ~97% cpu. Kicker cpu remained at ~2%.
I found the earlier thread in the mailing list archives concerning disabling the Ctrl/Alt/Delete 'feature' and while this does indeed stop the Ctrl/Alt/Del feature on the other system I upgraded, which does have a kb, mouse & screen, it did nothing to stop kdm-greet from thrashing the cpu on the 'headless' system.
This is a _big_ show stopper, for me at least, hence the _need_ to regress.
I'm also a bit perturbed as to why this change to kdm was made in the first place. I moved to KDE3 because Gnome had been dumbed down too much and because the Gnome devs seemed intent on on forcing people to work in the way that _they_ thought people should work. I subsequently moved to Trinity because of similar issues with KDE4 but now Trinity seems to be showing signs of following along the same path.
Whilst this new Ctrl/Alt/Del 'feature' may have seemed like a 'Good Idea' at the time it was not one of the original features of KDE3 and significantly changes its behaviour. However, it was precisely because I wanted retain the original KDE behaviour that I switched to Trinity in the first place.
Another change I noticed after the upgrade that showed similar signs of this trend was that the Reveal Desktop applet had been added to my Quick Launcher tray. Now personally, I don't have _any_ desktop icons, precisely because I don't want to have to waste time revealing the desktop to get at a hidden icon and then have to re-show all the windows I had open, which is why I use the quick launcher in the first place (and in any case I wouldn't/don't have desktop icons for specific data items either because there isn't enough desktop real estate, even at 1920x1200 for all the different data items I use).
Sure, this one was easily fixed, first by making it removable (it was pegged as unremovable) and then removing it, but why was it force-added when, if I had wanted it, it would have already been there in the first place?
I'm now a bit confused about the purpose of Trinity. I was under the impression that the project was started to so that people who knew what they were doing and knew how they wanted to work could continue to do so without having changes to their systems and workflows forced upon them. In this context, it seemed that Trinity was never intended to challenge the other mainstream desktop environments, which have been dumbed down by their developers to force their [the developer's] ideas of best practice upon a perceived lowest common denominator user. If this is/was the case then that old maxim applies - it if isn't broke, don't try to fix it.
Now whilst I have to admit that my first post to this list has been rather critical I'd like to emphasise that I'm not trying to flame anyone here; far from it in fact. So far, Trinity has been a godsend to me, enabling me to carry on working how _I_ want to work, for which I am very greatfull indeed. However, I do need to decide though, whether I'm going to be able to continue using it for the foreseeable future.
Regards,
LeeE
Whilst this new Ctrl/Alt/Del 'feature' may have seemed like a 'Good Idea' at the time it was not one of the original features of KDE3 and significantly changes its behaviour. However, it was precisely because I wanted retain the original KDE behaviour that I switched to Trinity in the first place.
If you would like the original behaviour of KDE3.5 the code is still available from 2008. Improvements have been made. This new CTRL+ALT+DELETE features is a great security enhancement. We are the only linux desktop that supports the SAK (secure attention key) system. This helps prevent the computer being hijacked by a program with malicious intent. It is easy to disable anyhow, if you wish to remain insecure.
Now whilst I have to admit that my first post to this list has been rather
critical I'd like to emphasise that I'm not trying to flame anyone here; far from it in fact. So far, Trinity has been a godsend to me, enabling me to carry on working how _I_ want to work, for which I am very greatfull indeed. However, I do need to decide though, whether I'm going to be able to continue using it for the foreseeable future.
Welcome! Hopefully we can work out the issues to keep you here forever :)
Calvin Morrison
On Saturday 21 January 2012 17:36:29 Calvin Morrison wrote:
Whilst this new Ctrl/Alt/Del 'feature' may have seemed like a 'Good Idea' at the time it was not one of the original features of KDE3 and significantly changes its behaviour. However, it was precisely because I wanted retain the original KDE behaviour that I switched to Trinity in the first place.
If you would like the original behaviour of KDE3.5 the code is still available from 2008. Improvements have been made. This new CTRL+ALT+DELETE features is a great security enhancement. We are the only linux desktop that supports the SAK (secure attention key) system. This helps prevent the computer being hijacked by a program with malicious intent. It is easy to disable anyhow, if you wish to remain insecure.
Now whilst I have to admit that my first post to this list has been rather
critical I'd like to emphasise that I'm not trying to flame anyone here; far from it in fact. So far, Trinity has been a godsend to me, enabling me to carry on working how _I_ want to work, for which I am very greatfull indeed. However, I do need to decide though, whether I'm going to be able to continue using it for the foreseeable future.
Welcome! Hopefully we can work out the issues to keep you here forever :)
Calvin Morrison
Hello Calvin,
Whilst I agree that implementing SAK is probably a Good Idea (tm) I think that the implementation may need a bit of a rethink.
From what I gathered from the response to the earlier thread in the list about its implementation, I suspect that the kdm_greet cpu thrashing problem may be due to the low-level routine not being able to find the keyboard (because none is fitted to the system in question). Hopefully this can be resolved though.
I _really_ do hope I can stick with Trinity because atm, regression granted, it's the perfect desktop environment for me and I've no desire to change.
Regards,
LeeE
On Saturday 21 January 2012 17:36:29 Calvin Morrison wrote:
Whilst this new Ctrl/Alt/Del 'feature' may have seemed like a 'Good
Idea'
at the time it was not one of the original features of KDE3 and significantly changes its behaviour. However, it was precisely
because I
wanted retain the original KDE behaviour that I switched to Trinity in the first place.
If you would like the original behaviour of KDE3.5 the code is still available from 2008. Improvements have been made. This new CTRL+ALT+DELETE features is a great security enhancement. We are the only linux desktop that supports the SAK (secure attention key) system. This helps prevent the computer being hijacked by a program with malicious intent. It is easy to disable anyhow, if you wish to remain insecure.
Now whilst I have to admit that my first post to this list has been rather
critical I'd like to emphasise that I'm not trying to flame anyone
here;
far from it in fact. So far, Trinity has been a godsend to me, enabling
me
to carry on working how _I_ want to work, for which I am very
greatfull
indeed. However, I do need to decide though, whether I'm going to be able to continue using it for the foreseeable future.
Welcome! Hopefully we can work out the issues to keep you here forever :)
Calvin Morrison
Hello Calvin,
Whilst I agree that implementing SAK is probably a Good Idea (tm) I think that the implementation may need a bit of a rethink.
<snip>
Thank you for your detailed posts earlier. 3.5.13 was rushed out and it does contain some serious bugs. Many of these bugs have been rectified in GIT and will be included in R14.0.0, which will be a primarily bugfix release with very few new features.
Regarding kdm_greet high CPU usage, that bug has nothing to do with the SAK support, which is why disabling the SAK did not resolve your problem. The SAK system has been tested on headless systems, where it automatically disables itself so that remote logins can still take place.
The kdm_greet bug has been addressed here: http://bugs.trinitydesktop.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=690
The high CPU usage was due to a KDM control pipe polling too often and has been fixed in GIT.
Tim
On Saturday 21 January 2012 18:06:57 Timothy Pearson wrote:
<snip>
Thank you for your detailed posts earlier. 3.5.13 was rushed out and it does contain some serious bugs. Many of these bugs have been rectified in GIT and will be included in R14.0.0, which will be a primarily bugfix release with very few new features.
Regarding kdm_greet high CPU usage, that bug has nothing to do with the SAK support, which is why disabling the SAK did not resolve your problem. The SAK system has been tested on headless systems, where it automatically disables itself so that remote logins can still take place.
The kdm_greet bug has been addressed here: http://bugs.trinitydesktop.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=690
The high CPU usage was due to a KDM control pipe polling too often and has been fixed in GIT.
Tim
Thanks for that info - very good news, to hear that the cause of the kdm_greet cpu race has been identified and fixed - it's very reassuring. Thanks also for all your hard work.
LeeE
Hi,
just a brief update to say that the regression procedure actually turned out to be painless, helped by the fact that I maintain my own local partial mirrors, so I already had the old V3.5.12 .debs.
Fwiw, I just copied all of the 3.5.12 .debs into a temp folder, cd'd in to that folder and then ran "dpkg -i *.deb"
There were no problems regarding installing thepackages in order, as can sometimes be the case.
Ymmv with other distros though.
Regards,
LeeE
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Calvin Morrison -
leee -
Timothy Pearson