23 Aug
2009
23 Aug
'09
9 a.m.
The day when KDE 3 will no longer be viable is getting closer every
day. Please tell me what problems you are having with KDE 4 so that we
can get them fixed. KDE 3 is great because it is mature, configurable,
and feature-laden without being bloated. I do not want to see that go
to waste! It is the KDE 3 holdouts who have the attention to detail to
distinguish the "little things" that make KDE 3 so great that are
currently lacking in KDE 4.
Note that KDE 4.3 really solves most of the issues for me and most
other people that I deal with. In fact, the features is adds over KDE
3 were enough to get me to switch. So please try KDE 4.3 and
_let_me_know_ what does not work for you so that we can file bugs. I
want to know about missing features, unintuitiveness, bugs,
regressions, anything. You _will_ need to relearn some minor things as
KDE 4 is a rewrite of KDE, not a Qt4 port of KDE 3, however let's get
the major issues fixed.
Thanks. KDE really needs the picky, stubborn KDE 3 users to push the
devs (who might not have the same attention to detail as us) in the
right direction. I'm here to bridge the gap between us (the users) and
the devs.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
23 Aug
23 Aug
9:05 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
The biggest failure is KDE4 itself. Please do not post such messages here. We hope KDE3.5
will be available always.
9:12 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
The biggest failure is KDE4 itself.
Can you be more specific? If you tell me specific problems that you
have with KDE 4 then I can help solve them.
Please do not post such messages here. We hope KDE3.5
will be available always.
Hope is nice, but with no developers working on KDE 3 it will soon
suffer the same bitrot that all abandoned software suffers (think
BeOS, Amiga). My purpose is to prevent the day where we wake up and
say "KDE 3 is no longer viable and KDE 4 does not do what I need". Let
me know what it is that you need. Just make a list of problems and we
will go over them one by one, I will file the necessary bugs. If the
list is _very_ long then you can make it a new thread (be sure to CC
me) or send it to me offlist.
Thanks. It is _exactly_ those people who hate KDE 4 that I need input
from. You are the guys (and girls) who can find the important details
that the devs so easily miss.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
9:22 a.m.
New subject: Re[2]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Can you be more specific? If you tell me specific
problems that you
have with KDE 4 then I can help solve them.
No problem. I simply do not plan to use it. Like E17 for example.
no developers working on KDE 3 it will soon
suffer the same bitrot that all abandoned software suffers (think
BeOS, Amiga).
People still work on OpenGEM, TWM and MWM even though their roots in early 1980s.
KDE3.5.10 was released less a year ago. Anyway, what KDE4 has to do with the topic of this
list? If KDE3.5 would no longer available, I'll use Gnome or Xfce, or Lxde or Windows.
KDE4 is the last option in my list.
5:14 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Hope is nice, but with no developers working on KDE 3
it will soon
suffer the same bitrot that all abandoned software suffers (think
BeOS, Amiga).
Hi Dotan,
While I don't agree with the tone of some of the replies you received (I
do appreciate what you are doing here) I need to respond to this
particular point.
I *am* developing KDE3. If you look in the PPA that I maintain, you will
see a whole slew of my patches that add new features, fix old bugs, and
generally keep the code compilable and functional as the backend libraries
change over time.
Now, from all appearances, *if* I were to stop development then yes, KDE
would bitrot and become unusable--purely because no one else has stepped
forward to assist.
I use KDE3.5 for a different purpose than some. My desktop is configured
to look, feel, and act like an enhanced version of Windows XP in "Classic"
mode. Like it or not, and I know many would argue with me, Microsoft had
one of the best desktop interfaces available with that release. If they
hadn't abandoned it, I would still be an avid Microsoft user.
Likewise, I know I will be argued with up and down on this, but KDE4
seems, from a look-n-feel perspective only, to be a hybrid of Windows
Vista and the latest Mac OS. I hate those two operating systems. In
almost every design choice. Period.
I am not alone here. Many engineers I have talked with do not like the
new interface. There are some of us who use a GUI simply because more
information can be placed on it, and many tasks made faster, than the
command line. Gnome and KDE4 don't have very much *useful* and *relevant*
information on the screen at any given time. These people have also
mentioned that the interface has a clunky feel, that they are having
difficulty just getting basic tasks done in a streamlined, efficient
fashion. Simply, more clicks required in the UI per task == more time
wasted.
The clunkiness has a direct impact on this. The DE should recede into the
background, not constantly push its way into the foreground. When it
shoves its way into the users programs, in the form of excessively large
menu bars, taskbars, and buttons, valuable screen space is stolen from the
user's application, forcing more scrolling, window management operations,
and application menu use inside the user's program.
This is a common flaw with the new direction all desktops seem to be
heading in. They are all pretty (well, actually, the Mac OS is pretty,
while Vista and KDE4 are really ugly), and seem to work well--until you
try to use them in your job, when you have 4 clients and 2 managers
demanding you get X, Y, and Z done *NOW*. Then you find that in order to
multitask in any sensible form you will need to learn to click constantly,
everywhere, and end up purchasing a really big replacement monitor. Yet,
somehow, your old monitor was perfectly adequate under Windows XP and
KDE3.5. Your programs haven't changed. So why again is your DE forcing
you to buy new hardware and slowing you down?
Hmmm.
No thanks.
I have even caused some older folks, who have used Windows since it came
out, to switch to Linux. How? By showing them a truly better desktop
interface: Windows XP classic + some sorely needed features--in other
words, KDE3.5. They all hated where Windows was going, and Mac was too
limiting.
So, rant aside, try adding a "super-tiny-taskbar, icons, buttons, and
menus" option. Also make an "angular buttons option" so that they can be
compacted on the screen the way they always were. (Actually IIRC that
last one finally does exist in KDE3).
Also, make it so that the shiny stuff can be turned off. Menu drop
shadows are OK, but shiny rounded menus are distracting.
Bring back the old KDE control center.
Bring back task tray icons as plasmoid replacements. I DON'T LIKE having
to minimize my windows (an extra click) to get at something critical like
the network manager plasmoid and then have to un-minimize them all again
when I am done (another extra click). To say nothing of having to check
connectivity in another program and then go back to the plasmoid....click
click click click click....grrrr...Windows was so much better... This is
a massive waste of the user's time and is, bluntly, a really, really
stupid design decision. You NEVER want to make the users think what I
just wrote.
I like putting icons on my desktop. Only icons. Can we turn off that
stupid cashew yet?
The UI fonts are way too large.
Why can't I *easily* and *intuitively* reconfigure something as basic as
my desktop???
You get the point. Many of these items are design decisions that the
developers made to "set KDE4 apart". I don't think they will be fixed
anytime soon. Feel free to surprise me though! :-)
Timothy Pearson
KDE3.5 Maintainer
Embedded Systems Engineer
Raptor Engineering
8:06 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
While I don't agree with the tone of some of the
replies you received (I
do appreciate what you are doing here) I need to respond to this
particular point.
Excellent, your opinion of the situation is by far the most informed
opinion that I expect to hear here!
I *am* developing KDE3. If you look in the PPA that I
maintain, you will
see a whole slew of my patches that add new features, fix old bugs, and
generally keep the code compilable and functional as the backend libraries
change over time.
While I was aware that you were cleaning up the bitrot to maintain
compatibility with certain libraries as time moves on, I did not
realize that you are performing actual bugfixes and adding new
features. However, that is great for KDE users of [k]Ubuntu, not KDE
in general. I would argue that you are maintaining Kubuntu. Have you
considered contacting a KDE representative and releasing KDE 3.5.11 or
even KDE 3.6? Would you like me to see exactly how that would be done?
My intention is not to belittle the effort that you are investing for
the community. Quite the opposite, believe me, I respect your effort,
your time, and your dedication more than most. And those who don't,
will, should the day come when you can no longer maintain the project.
(tfu tfu tfu).
Now, from all appearances, *if* I were to stop
development then yes, KDE
would bitrot and become unusable--purely because no one else has stepped
forward to assist.
So it only takes one bus accident?
I use KDE3.5 for a different purpose than some. My
desktop is configured
to look, feel, and act like an enhanced version of Windows XP in "Classic"
mode. Like it or not, and I know many would argue with me, Microsoft had
one of the best desktop interfaces available with that release. If they
hadn't abandoned it, I would still be an avid Microsoft user.
They hadn't. Isn't it an option in Windows today? I have never used
Vista or 7, but my Windows XP VM uses the lightweight, readable
Classic interface.
Likewise, I know I will be argued with up and down on
this, but KDE4
seems, from a look-n-feel perspective only, to be a hybrid of Windows
Vista and the latest Mac OS. I hate those two operating systems. In
almost every design choice. Period.
I have not used the two OSes that you compare KDE 4 to, but I very
much enjoy KDE 4.3. We are branching into three fronts, so I will
separate them:
1) What it looks like:
I agree that KDE 4 looks like Mac and Vista. That does not bother me
as I have no grudge against those systems.
2) How it is operated:
I do not know how Vista / OS-X are operated, but I find KDE 4.3 to be
less intuitive than KDE 3.5. This is a point in which the KDE 3
holdouts can help! The KDE devs, and even myself, are so used to KDE
4. after working with it for so long that we don't see what is not
intuitive anymore. Let me know what you find unintuitive (like the
panel configuration) and I will file bugs on it. This is very
important, and only the KDE 3 holdouts can help here.
3) What it can do:
I can do everything in KDE 4.3 that I could in KDE 3. I may do some of
them differently, but all can get done. However, for _you_ it might be
different, and I need to know what is missing for _you_ in KDE 4.
I am not alone here. Many engineers I have talked
with do not like the
new interface. There are some of us who use a GUI simply because more
information can be placed on it, and many tasks made faster, than the
command line. Gnome and KDE4 don't have very much *useful* and *relevant*
information on the screen at any given time. These people have also
mentioned that the interface has a clunky feel, that they are having
difficulty just getting basic tasks done in a streamlined, efficient
fashion. Simply, more clicks required in the UI per task == more time
wasted.
I would love to hear the details. If you prefer off-list, I'm here. If
you write off list then please write to the address kb9vqf at
dotancohen d o t c o m. Thanks.
The clunkiness has a direct impact on this. The DE
should recede into the
background, not constantly push its way into the foreground. When it
shoves its way into the users programs, in the form of excessively large
menu bars, taskbars, and buttons, valuable screen space is stolen from the
user's application, forcing more scrolling, window management operations,
and application menu use inside the user's program.
I do not feel that what you describe is the case with KDE 4.3. I do
not like the toolbar buttons' default to having the text shown as well
as the icon, but other than that I do not find the interface to be
excessively large.
This is a common flaw with the new direction all
desktops seem to be
heading in. They are all pretty (well, actually, the Mac OS is pretty,
while Vista and KDE4 are really ugly), and seem to work well--until you
try to use them in your job, when you have 4 clients and 2 managers
demanding you get X, Y, and Z done *NOW*. Then you find that in order to
multitask in any sensible form you will need to learn to click constantly,
everywhere, and end up purchasing a really big replacement monitor. Yet,
somehow, your old monitor was perfectly adequate under Windows XP and
KDE3.5. Your programs haven't changed. So why again is your DE forcing
you to buy new hardware and slowing you down?
I am not doubting you, but I do not perceive this problem with KDE 4.
Can you maybe send to me a screenshot of the same interface elements
in both KDE 3 and 4 for comparison (the defaults). I will take it up
on the usability list. Your assumptions and statements are correct in
the general sense, but I fail to see where that they apply to KDE 4.
I have even caused some older folks, who have used
Windows since it came
out, to switch to Linux. How? By showing them a truly better desktop
interface: Windows XP classic + some sorely needed features--in other
words, KDE3.5. They all hated where Windows was going, and Mac was too
limiting.
I have seen this too, with MS Office users flocking to OOo.
So, rant aside, try adding a "super-tiny-taskbar,
icons, buttons, and
menus" option.
I will file a bug on that, and I will mention it on the usability list.
Also make an "angular buttons option" so
that they can be
compacted on the screen the way they always were. (Actually IIRC that
last one finally does exist in KDE3).
Please be very specific, I will file a feature request.
Also, make it so that the shiny stuff can be turned
off. Menu drop
shadows are OK, but shiny rounded menus are distracting.
That is configurable in KDE 4.3.
Bring back the old KDE control center.
The KDE 4.3 System Settings has the familiar tree menu. In that
configuration, it resembles Kcontrol very well. If there are other
elements of Kcontrol that you miss, please tell me what they are.
Bring back task tray icons as plasmoid replacements.
I DON'T LIKE having
to minimize my windows (an extra click) to get at something critical like
the network manager plasmoid and then have to un-minimize them all again
when I am done (another extra click).
The network manager plasmoid could have been on your panel. In any
case, it is now in the system tray. But I understand your point in
general, however each fix needs an individual bug report. So lay 'em
on! Which functionality that you have on the panel in KDE 3 cannot be
had on the panel in KDE 4.3?
To say nothing of having to check
connectivity in another program and then go back to the plasmoid....click
click click click click....grrrr...Windows was so much better... This is
a massive waste of the user's time and is, bluntly, a really, really
stupid design decision. You NEVER want to make the users think what I
just wrote.
It is not like that anymore, at least, not for the network manager.
I like putting icons on my desktop. Only icons. Can
we turn off that
stupid cashew yet?
No. Sorry. Write to Aaron personally on that one!
The UI fonts are way too large.
So change them! I think that they're great, and of the 5-10 KDE
4.[2|3] installs that I have performed for people, the only ones who
mentioned the fonts were those who liked them.
Why can't I *easily* and *intuitively* reconfigure
something as basic as
my desktop???
Because you haven't complained to _me_ yet! Seriously, be specific
about what is unintuitive and I will file the bugs. I agreet hat KDE 4
is not yet intuitive enough but the devs are used to it: they need
_you_ to tell them what is not intuitive.
You get the point. Many of these items are design
decisions that the
developers made to "set KDE4 apart". I don't think they will be fixed
anytime soon. Feel free to surprise me though! :-)
I have been pleasantly surprised by KDE 4.2 and 4.3, the devs are
really starting to take into consideration what the users want. Just
let me know what that is.
Thanks, Timothy, I look forward to hearing the specifics.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
8:15 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
So, rant
aside, try adding a "super-tiny-taskbar, icons, buttons, and
menus" option.
I will file a bug on that, and I will mention it on the usability list.
9:29 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Hi Dotan,
I'm pretty busy at the moment, but I will definitely try to provide
specific examples of what I am talking about. I have to load up KDE4.3
and KDE3.5 in a VM, and then I will take screenshots side-by-side of the
equivalent programs, with the items that are unintuitive or difficult to
use in KDE4.3 highlighted. Will this help?
Hmm...a KDE3.5.11 release isn't a bad idea at all. I'd still like to make
a few more changes to the UI before another release, but it's a worthy
goal. Trouble is, I have no idea how to get my changes into the KDE SVN
and actually make a release! Any help here would be greatly appreciated.
One other thing. Microsoft removed the classic option in Vista--I used it
for one day before deciding it was easier (and better) to go to Linux than
to put up with that garbage. I have also used a very recent Mac desktop
in a store (they had one on display that you could use), and I actually
counted the mouse clicks needed to do a simple task like creating,
renaming, and deleting a folder on the desktop. I counted over three
times the number of clicks for each operation vs. KDE3.5 or Windows XP. I
left wondering why people use Macs at all!
I didn't know you could put the network manager on the panel. I still
like a tray icon with context menus much better; I'm glad they put one
back in.
Look for the comparison screenshots on this list in the coming weeks.
Thanks for trying to make KDE4 better for all of us!
Timothy Pearson
KDE3.5 Maintainer
While I
don't agree with the tone of some of the replies you received (I
do appreciate what you are doing here) I need to respond to this
particular point.
Excellent, your opinion of the situation is by far the most informed
opinion that I expect to hear here!
I *am* developing KDE3. Â If you look in the PPA
that I maintain, you
will
see a whole slew of my patches that add new features, fix old bugs, and
generally keep the code compilable and functional as the backend
libraries
change over time.
While I was aware that you were cleaning up the bitrot to maintain
compatibility with certain libraries as time moves on, I did not
realize that you are performing actual bugfixes and adding new
features. However, that is great for KDE users of [k]Ubuntu, not KDE
in general. I would argue that you are maintaining Kubuntu. Have you
considered contacting a KDE representative and releasing KDE 3.5.11 or
even KDE 3.6? Would you like me to see exactly how that would be done?
My intention is not to belittle the effort that you are investing for
the community. Quite the opposite, believe me, I respect your effort,
your time, and your dedication more than most. And those who don't,
will, should the day come when you can no longer maintain the project.
(tfu tfu tfu).
Now, from all appearances, *if* I were to stop
development then yes, KDE
would bitrot and become unusable--purely because no one else has stepped
forward to assist.
So it only takes one bus accident?
I use KDE3.5 for a different purpose than some.
 My desktop is
configured
to look, feel, and act like an enhanced version of Windows XP in
"Classic"
mode. Â Like it or not, and I know many would argue with me, Microsoft
had
one of the best desktop interfaces available with that release. Â If
they
hadn't abandoned it, I would still be an avid Microsoft user.
They hadn't. Isn't it an option in Windows today? I have never used
Vista or 7, but my Windows XP VM uses the lightweight, readable
Classic interface.
Likewise, I know I will be argued with up and
down on this, but KDE4
seems, from a look-n-feel perspective only, to be a hybrid of Windows
Vista and the latest Mac OS. Â I hate those two operating systems. Â In
almost every design choice. Â Period.
I have not used the two OSes that you compare KDE 4 to, but I very
much enjoy KDE 4.3. We are branching into three fronts, so I will
separate them:
1) What it looks like:
I agree that KDE 4 looks like Mac and Vista. That does not bother me
as I have no grudge against those systems.
2) How it is operated:
I do not know how Vista / OS-X are operated, but I find KDE 4.3 to be
less intuitive than KDE 3.5. This is a point in which the KDE 3
holdouts can help! The KDE devs, and even myself, are so used to KDE
4. after working with it for so long that we don't see what is not
intuitive anymore. Let me know what you find unintuitive (like the
panel configuration) and I will file bugs on it. This is very
important, and only the KDE 3 holdouts can help here.
3) What it can do:
I can do everything in KDE 4.3 that I could in KDE 3. I may do some of
them differently, but all can get done. However, for _you_ it might be
different, and I need to know what is missing for _you_ in KDE 4.
I am not alone here. Â Many engineers I have
talked with do not like the
new interface. Â There are some of us who use a GUI simply because more
information can be placed on it, and many tasks made faster, than the
command line. Â Gnome and KDE4 don't have very much *useful* and
*relevant*
information on the screen at any given time. Â These people have also
mentioned that the interface has a clunky feel, that they are having
difficulty just getting basic tasks done in a streamlined, efficient
fashion. Â Simply, more clicks required in the UI per task == more time
wasted.
I would love to hear the details. If you prefer off-list, I'm here. If
you write off list then please write to the address kb9vqf at
dotancohen d o t c o m. Thanks.
The clunkiness has a direct impact on this. Â The
DE should recede into
the
background, not constantly push its way into the foreground. Â When it
shoves its way into the users programs, in the form of excessively large
menu bars, taskbars, and buttons, valuable screen space is stolen from
the
user's application, forcing more scrolling, window management
operations,
and application menu use inside the user's program.
I do not feel that what you describe is the case with KDE 4.3. I do
not like the toolbar buttons' default to having the text shown as well
as the icon, but other than that I do not find the interface to be
excessively large.
This is a common flaw with the new direction all
desktops seem to be
heading in. Â They are all pretty (well, actually, the Mac OS is pretty,
while Vista and KDE4 are really ugly), and seem to work well--until you
try to use them in your job, when you have 4 clients and 2 managers
demanding you get X, Y, and Z done *NOW*. Â Then you find that in order
to
multitask in any sensible form you will need to learn to click
constantly,
everywhere, and end up purchasing a really big replacement monitor.
 Yet,
somehow, your old monitor was perfectly adequate under Windows XP and
KDE3.5. Â Your programs haven't changed. Â So why again is your DE
forcing
you to buy new hardware and slowing you down?
I am not doubting you, but I do not perceive this problem with KDE 4.
Can you maybe send to me a screenshot of the same interface elements
in both KDE 3 and 4 for comparison (the defaults). I will take it up
on the usability list. Your assumptions and statements are correct in
the general sense, but I fail to see where that they apply to KDE 4.
I have even caused some older folks, who have
used Windows since it came
out, to switch to Linux. Â How? Â By showing them a truly better desktop
interface: Windows XP classic + some sorely needed features--in other
words, KDE3.5. Â They all hated where Windows was going, and Mac was too
limiting.
I have seen this too, with MS Office users flocking to OOo.
So, rant aside, try adding a
"super-tiny-taskbar, icons, buttons, and
menus" option.
I will file a bug on that, and I will mention it on the usability list.
 Also make an "angular buttons option"
so that they can be
compacted on the screen the way they always were. Â (Actually IIRC that
last one finally does exist in KDE3).
Please be very specific, I will file a feature request.
Also, make it so that the shiny stuff can be
turned off. Â Menu drop
shadows are OK, but shiny rounded menus are distracting.
That is configurable in KDE 4.3.
Bring back the old KDE control center.
The KDE 4.3 System Settings has the familiar tree menu. In that
configuration, it resembles Kcontrol very well. If there are other
elements of Kcontrol that you miss, please tell me what they are.
Bring back task tray icons as plasmoid
replacements. Â I DON'T LIKE
having
to minimize my windows (an extra click) to get at something critical
like
the network manager plasmoid and then have to un-minimize them all again
when I am done (another extra click).
The network manager plasmoid could have been on your panel. In any
case, it is now in the system tray. But I understand your point in
general, however each fix needs an individual bug report. So lay 'em
on! Which functionality that you have on the panel in KDE 3 cannot be
had on the panel in KDE 4.3?
 To say nothing of having to check
connectivity in another program and then go back to the
plasmoid....click
click click click click....grrrr...Windows was so much better... Â This
is
a massive waste of the user's time and is, bluntly, a really, really
stupid design decision. Â You NEVER want to make the users think what I
just wrote.
It is not like that anymore, at least, not for the network manager.
I like putting icons on my desktop. Â Only icons.
 Can we turn off that
stupid cashew yet?
No. Sorry. Write to Aaron personally on that one!
The UI fonts are way too large.
So change them! I think that they're great, and of the 5-10 KDE
4.[2|3] installs that I have performed for people, the only ones who
mentioned the fonts were those who liked them.
Why can't I *easily* and *intuitively*
reconfigure something as basic as
my desktop???
Because you haven't complained to _me_ yet! Seriously, be specific
about what is unintuitive and I will file the bugs. I agreet hat KDE 4
is not yet intuitive enough but the devs are used to it: they need
_you_ to tell them what is not intuitive.
You get the point. Â Many of these items are
design decisions that the
developers made to "set KDE4 apart". Â I don't think they will be fixed
anytime soon. Â Feel free to surprise me though! :-)
I have been pleasantly surprised by KDE 4.2 and 4.3, the devs are
really starting to take into consideration what the users want. Just
let me know what that is.
Thanks, Timothy, I look forward to hearing the specifics.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
10:10 p.m.
New subject: Re[2]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Hmm...a KDE3.5.11 release isn't a bad idea at all.
I'd still like to make
a few more changes to the UI before another release, but it's a worthy
goal.
I think the most important change is to standardize new namespace and prefix for KDE3 that
would not conflict with KDE4. You see the devs of KDE4 in attempt to completely kill and
cancel use of KDE3, gave KDE4 libraries names conflicting with those of KDE3 dispite
completely different function (this is contrary to established UNIX naming customs). Now
SuSE, Kubuntu, Alt Linux etc use different namespaces for KDE3 which makes interchange of
advances difficult.
24 Aug
24 Aug
7:12 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I'm pretty busy at the moment, but I will
definitely try to provide
specific examples of what I am talking about. I have to load up KDE4.3
and KDE3.5 in a VM, and then I will take screenshots side-by-side of the
equivalent programs, with the items that are unintuitive or difficult to
use in KDE4.3 highlighted. Will this help?
Yes, very much, thanks! Can I repost the images to bugzilla other
KDE-related pages?
Hmm...a KDE3.5.11 release isn't a bad idea at all.
I'd still like to make
a few more changes to the UI before another release, but it's a worthy
goal. Trouble is, I have no idea how to get my changes into the KDE SVN
and actually make a release! Any help here would be greatly appreciated.
I'll get on it. Of course, it would have to be tested on distros other
than *buntu, but that can be by users of those distros.
One other thing. Microsoft removed the classic option
in Vista--I used it
for one day before deciding it was easier (and better) to go to Linux than
to put up with that garbage. I have also used a very recent Mac desktop
in a store (they had one on display that you could use), and I actually
counted the mouse clicks needed to do a simple task like creating,
renaming, and deleting a folder on the desktop. I counted over three
times the number of clicks for each operation vs. KDE3.5 or Windows XP. I
left wondering why people use Macs at all!
Because people like to click! Seriously, it makes them feel productive
and smart. There was a discussion on slashdot about this maybe a year
or two ago. Webpages: less click are better. Applications' UI: more
clicks are better. Especially for work-related applications.
Thanks for trying to make KDE4 better for all of us!
Thank _you_ for patching and packaging!
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
9:29 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I have been very happy with KDE3.5 series. I'm very glad it is being
maintained. Thank you.
From my own perspective I think 4.3 is the best release of the KDE4 so far, as
in I can do work with it rather than wrestle with it.
The big problem for me is SPEED. I think we here know very subjectively the
KDE3.5 flies and KDE4 seems to crawl. There was a very interesting discussion
by Zack Rusin on QT drawing performance:
http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2009/08/2d-in-kde.html
Solving this problem in a network aware and hardware accelerated way on all
cards, will make a massive difference to KDE4 perception.
For me Plasmoids are not vastly useful. I prefer apps in windows to apps on
desktops. To be honest I think if Kicker was ported to KDE4 then a lot of
people might be won over. Or a Plasma-lite option.
Anyway this is about KDE3. Thanks for continued development - it fulfills a
massive need.
Kevin
On Sunday 23 August 2009, kb9vqf(a)pearsoncomputing.net wrote:
Hi Dotan,
I'm pretty busy at the moment, but I will definitely try to provide
specific examples of what I am talking about. I have to load up KDE4.3
and KDE3.5 in a VM, and then I will take screenshots side-by-side of the
equivalent programs, with the items that are unintuitive or difficult to
use in KDE4.3 highlighted. Will this help?
Hmm...a KDE3.5.11 release isn't a bad idea at all. I'd still like to make
a few more changes to the UI before another release, but it's a worthy
goal. Trouble is, I have no idea how to get my changes into the KDE SVN
and actually make a release! Any help here would be greatly appreciated.
One other thing. Microsoft removed the classic option in Vista--I used it
for one day before deciding it was easier (and better) to go to Linux than
to put up with that garbage. I have also used a very recent Mac desktop
in a store (they had one on display that you could use), and I actually
counted the mouse clicks needed to do a simple task like creating,
renaming, and deleting a folder on the desktop. I counted over three
times the number of clicks for each operation vs. KDE3.5 or Windows XP. I
left wondering why people use Macs at all!
I didn't know you could put the network manager on the panel. I still
like a tray icon with context menus much better; I'm glad they put one
back in.
Look for the comparison screenshots on this list in the coming weeks.
Thanks for trying to make KDE4 better for all of us!
Timothy Pearson
KDE3.5 Maintainer
>> While I don't agree with the tone of some of the replies you received (I
>> do appreciate what you are doing here) I need to respond to this
>> particular point.
>
> Excellent, your opinion of the situation is by far the most informed
> opinion that I expect to hear here!
>
>> I *am* developing KDE3. Â If you look in the PPA that I maintain, you
>> will
>> see a whole slew of my patches that add new features, fix old bugs, and
>> generally keep the code compilable and functional as the backend
>> libraries
>> change over time.
>
> While I was aware that you were cleaning up the bitrot to maintain
> compatibility with certain libraries as time moves on, I did not
> realize that you are performing actual bugfixes and adding new
> features. However, that is great for KDE users of [k]Ubuntu, not KDE
> in general. I would argue that you are maintaining Kubuntu. Have you
> considered contacting a KDE representative and releasing KDE 3.5.11 or
> even KDE 3.6? Would you like me to see exactly how that would be done?
>
> My intention is not to belittle the effort that you are investing for
> the community. Quite the opposite, believe me, I respect your effort,
> your time, and your dedication more than most. And those who don't,
> will, should the day come when you can no longer maintain the project.
> (tfu tfu tfu).
>
>> Now, from all appearances, *if* I were to stop development then yes, KDE
>> would bitrot and become unusable--purely because no one else has stepped
>> forward to assist.
>
> So it only takes one bus accident?
>
>> I use KDE3.5 for a different purpose than some. Â My desktop is
>> configured
>> to look, feel, and act like an enhanced version of Windows XP in
>> "Classic"
>> mode. Â Like it or not, and I know many would argue with me, Microsoft
>> had
>> one of the best desktop interfaces available with that release. Â If
>> they
>> hadn't abandoned it, I would still be an avid Microsoft user.
>
> They hadn't. Isn't it an option in Windows today? I have never used
> Vista or 7, but my Windows XP VM uses the lightweight, readable
> Classic interface.
>
>> Likewise, I know I will be argued with up and down on this, but KDE4
>> seems, from a look-n-feel perspective only, to be a hybrid of Windows
>> Vista and the latest Mac OS. Â I hate those two operating systems. Â In
>> almost every design choice. Â Period.
>
> I have not used the two OSes that you compare KDE 4 to, but I very
> much enjoy KDE 4.3. We are branching into three fronts, so I will
> separate them:
>
> 1) What it looks like:
> I agree that KDE 4 looks like Mac and Vista. That does not bother me
> as I have no grudge against those systems.
>
> 2) How it is operated:
> I do not know how Vista / OS-X are operated, but I find KDE 4.3 to be
> less intuitive than KDE 3.5. This is a point in which the KDE 3
> holdouts can help! The KDE devs, and even myself, are so used to KDE
> 4. after working with it for so long that we don't see what is not
> intuitive anymore. Let me know what you find unintuitive (like the
> panel configuration) and I will file bugs on it. This is very
> important, and only the KDE 3 holdouts can help here.
>
> 3) What it can do:
> I can do everything in KDE 4.3 that I could in KDE 3. I may do some of
> them differently, but all can get done. However, for _you_ it might be
> different, and I need to know what is missing for _you_ in KDE 4.
>
>> I am not alone here. Â Many engineers I have talked with do not like the
>> new interface. Â There are some of us who use a GUI simply because more
>> information can be placed on it, and many tasks made faster, than the
>> command line. Â Gnome and KDE4 don't have very much *useful* and
>> *relevant*
>> information on the screen at any given time. Â These people have also
>> mentioned that the interface has a clunky feel, that they are having
>> difficulty just getting basic tasks done in a streamlined, efficient
>> fashion. Â Simply, more clicks required in the UI per task == more time
>> wasted.
>
> I would love to hear the details. If you prefer off-list, I'm here. If
> you write off list then please write to the address kb9vqf at
> dotancohen d o t c o m. Thanks.
>
>> The clunkiness has a direct impact on this. Â The DE should recede into
>> the
>> background, not constantly push its way into the foreground. Â When it
>> shoves its way into the users programs, in the form of excessively large
>> menu bars, taskbars, and buttons, valuable screen space is stolen from
>> the
>> user's application, forcing more scrolling, window management
>> operations,
>> and application menu use inside the user's program.
>
> I do not feel that what you describe is the case with KDE 4.3. I do
> not like the toolbar buttons' default to having the text shown as well
> as the icon, but other than that I do not find the interface to be
> excessively large.
>
>> This is a common flaw with the new direction all desktops seem to be
>> heading in. Â They are all pretty (well, actually, the Mac OS is pretty,
>> while Vista and KDE4 are really ugly), and seem to work well--until you
>> try to use them in your job, when you have 4 clients and 2 managers
>> demanding you get X, Y, and Z done *NOW*. Â Then you find that in order
>> to
>> multitask in any sensible form you will need to learn to click
>> constantly,
>> everywhere, and end up purchasing a really big replacement monitor.
>> Â Yet,
>> somehow, your old monitor was perfectly adequate under Windows XP and
>> KDE3.5. Â Your programs haven't changed. Â So why again is your DE
>> forcing
>> you to buy new hardware and slowing you down?
>
> I am not doubting you, but I do not perceive this problem with KDE 4.
> Can you maybe send to me a screenshot of the same interface elements
> in both KDE 3 and 4 for comparison (the defaults). I will take it up
> on the usability list. Your assumptions and statements are correct in
> the general sense, but I fail to see where that they apply to KDE 4.
>
>> I have even caused some older folks, who have used Windows since it came
>> out, to switch to Linux. Â How? Â By showing them a truly better desktop
>> interface: Windows XP classic + some sorely needed features--in other
>> words, KDE3.5. Â They all hated where Windows was going, and Mac was too
>> limiting.
>
> I have seen this too, with MS Office users flocking to OOo.
>
>> So, rant aside, try adding a "super-tiny-taskbar, icons, buttons, and
>> menus" option.
>
> I will file a bug on that, and I will mention it on the usability list.
>
>>Â Also make an "angular buttons option" so that they can be
>> compacted on the screen the way they always were. Â (Actually IIRC that
>> last one finally does exist in KDE3).
>
> Please be very specific, I will file a feature request.
>
>> Also, make it so that the shiny stuff can be turned off. Â Menu drop
>> shadows are OK, but shiny rounded menus are distracting.
>
> That is configurable in KDE 4.3.
>
>> Bring back the old KDE control center.
>
> The KDE 4.3 System Settings has the familiar tree menu. In that
> configuration, it resembles Kcontrol very well. If there are other
> elements of Kcontrol that you miss, please tell me what they are.
>
>> Bring back task tray icons as plasmoid replacements. Â I DON'T LIKE
>> having
>> to minimize my windows (an extra click) to get at something critical
>> like
>> the network manager plasmoid and then have to un-minimize them all again
>> when I am done (another extra click).
>
> The network manager plasmoid could have been on your panel. In any
> case, it is now in the system tray. But I understand your point in
> general, however each fix needs an individual bug report. So lay 'em
> on! Which functionality that you have on the panel in KDE 3 cannot be
> had on the panel in KDE 4.3?
>
>>Â To say nothing of having to check
>> connectivity in another program and then go back to the
>> plasmoid....click
>> click click click click....grrrr...Windows was so much better... Â This
>> is
>> a massive waste of the user's time and is, bluntly, a really, really
>> stupid design decision. Â You NEVER want to make the users think what I
>> just wrote.
>
> It is not like that anymore, at least, not for the network manager.
>
>> I like putting icons on my desktop. Â Only icons. Â Can we turn off that
>> stupid cashew yet?
>
> No. Sorry. Write to Aaron personally on that one!
>
>> The UI fonts are way too large.
>
> So change them! I think that they're great, and of the 5-10 KDE
> 4.[2|3] installs that I have performed for people, the only ones who
> mentioned the fonts were those who liked them.
>
>> Why can't I *easily* and *intuitively* reconfigure something as basic as
>> my desktop???
>
> Because you haven't complained to _me_ yet! Seriously, be specific
> about what is unintuitive and I will file the bugs. I agreet hat KDE 4
> is not yet intuitive enough but the devs are used to it: they need
> _you_ to tell them what is not intuitive.
>
>> You get the point. Â Many of these items are design decisions that the
>> developers made to "set KDE4 apart". Â I don't think they will be
fixed
>> anytime soon. Â Feel free to surprise me though! :-)
>
> I have been pleasantly surprised by KDE 4.2 and 4.3, the devs are
> really starting to take into consideration what the users want. Just
> let me know what that is.
>
> Thanks, Timothy, I look forward to hearing the specifics.
>
>
> --
> Dotan Cohen
>
> http://what-is-what.com
> http://gibberish.co.il
--
Kevin Colyer
YWAM National Director (interim)
YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
Avenue Des Celtes, 19
1040 Bruxelles
Belgium
Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
http://www.ywambrussels.be
skype: kevincolyerwork
11:32 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
The big problem for me is SPEED. I think we here know
very subjectively the
KDE3.5 flies and KDE4 seems to crawl. There was a very interesting discussion
by Zack Rusin on QT drawing performance:
http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2009/08/2d-in-kde.html
Solving this problem in a network aware and hardware accelerated way on all
cards, will make a massive difference to KDE4 perception.
Did you read the followup post to that? It looks like the difference
is not as big as it seems, and it has many drawbacks.
http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2009/08/more-2d-in-kde.html
For me Plasmoids are not vastly useful. I prefer apps
in windows to apps on
desktops.
I agree!
To be honest I think if Kicker was ported to KDE4 then
a lot of
people might be won over. Or a Plasma-lite option.
This was discussed, but nobody came forward to do it. Therefore the
community has resorted to filing feature requests on Plasma for
kicker-like functions.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
11:50 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Did you read the followup post to that? It looks like
the difference
is not as big as it seems, and it has many drawbacks.
http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2009/08/more-2d-in-kde.html
Yes, I read that and the raster solution has big problems. Actually I would
not consider that the way forwards. My biggest need is performance over LTSP
via the X protocols. Zack's thoughts about OpenGL acceleration could well be
the solution, as that works over X. Hope some solutions will be found.
Anyway, I'm getting off topic here. Sorry.
Kevin
--
Kevin Colyer
YWAM National Director (interim)
YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles
Avenue Des Celtes, 19
1040 Bruxelles
Belgium
Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63
Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40
GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003
GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium)
http://www.ywambrussels.be
skype: kevincolyerwork
3:26 p.m.
New subject: Re[2]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
To be honest I think if Kicker was ported to KDE4 then
a lot of
people might be won over.
You may be surprised, but Kicker has been ported to Qt4 and was included in KDE4 Alpha 1.
It was thrown away later by people who wanted their Plasma to be included in KDE4.
4 Sep
4 Sep
2:41 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Hmm...a KDE3.5.11 release isn't a bad idea at all.
I'd still like to make
a few more changes to the UI before another release, but it's a worthy
goal. Trouble is, I have no idea how to get my changes into the KDE SVN
and actually make a release! Any help here would be greatly appreciated.
On the KDE list it was suggested that you propose the release on this list:
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Good luck with that, and please keep us posted. Thank you for your
contributions to KDE!
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
23 Aug
23 Aug
9:43 p.m.
New subject: Re[2]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Have you considered contacting a KDE representative
and releasing KDE 3.5.11 or
even KDE 3.6? Would you like me to see exactly how that would be done?
I think this would be difficult as KDE3.5 has been intentionally frozen. There is not a
lack of developers, but the source repo is deliberately closed.
27 Aug
27 Aug
8:27 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I also would like to contribute to your questions "what's missing in KDE4".
Originally I thought about only 2 contributions that I could still remember.
But during taking the corresponding screenshots I discovered some more issues.
Here they are:
Usability:
* In KDE3 you could change the time format of the clock applet by right
clicking on it and selecting "date & time format", that means with 2
clicks only.
In KDE4 this menu item has been removed. IMO that's counterintuitive. Many people
would expect this functionality there, I think. Currently the only way to change
the date & time format is to start system-settings and go to
"Personal"->"Region & Language"->"Country/Region
& Language". I doubt that all
KDE4 users will find this settings dialog immediately.
Waste of Space:
* For today let's just compare the kicker and the Plasma panel. Here are some
screenshots:
- http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/waste_of_space/kde3_kicker.png
- http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/waste_of_space/kde4_kicker.png
To be fair I gave both panels nearly the same size (it's hard to set an exact
panel size in KDE4 because the numeric input for the size has been removed in
KDE4, but that doesn't matter for me).
When I compare both pictures I see that...
- the KDE4 pager has much smaller previews (~65% of the size of the KDE3
pager)
- the KDE4 task manager is less readable than the KDE3 version, because of
the smaller font
- the KDE4 system tray consists only of one row which leads to an increased
horizontal width
- the KDE4 icons for the battery and network connection are 4 times larger
than in KDE3. But this is already a known issue that has been reported
here:
- https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182193
- https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167132
And regarding vertical panels you have to multiply this issue by 3, as
you can see in the nice screenshots in the second bug report)
And sorry, but whenever I see this over dimensioned KDE4 battery plasmoid
I have to laugh. It's so big but it's only able to show _5 different
states_!
That leads actually to this problem that you cannot distinguish between 38%
and 62%, because both states are represented by 2 bars. Well, I would be
interested in this difference, especially when the battery runs low.
I will never understand why some developers love to hide useful information.
But to see the differences to KDE3, let's compare the KDE4 battery plasmoid
with KLaptop. KLaptop uses only 1/4 of the icon size, but is able to represent
_81 different battery states_ (in 5x16 pixels)! The trick is to use not only
a vertical progress bar but another the horizontal progress bar in each pixel
row. When I saw this for the first time (some years ago) I was fascinated by
this brilliant idea and thought: Yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm using
KDE!
Functionality:
* Hide panel manually: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158556
Please vote for this feature if you miss it. And remember, in KDE4 it's even
more important than in KDE3 because of the bigger panel.
Visual overhead:
* I'm using 4 desktops in KDE4. When I switch from #2 to #3 (diagonal) a
window appears telling me that I moved left and than down. When I used
compiz fusion some years ago I liked this small info window because it was
transparent and disappeared very fast. Furthermore it showed only 1 array
instead of 2 (which can be actually misunderstood) and it could be
deactivated as well. In KDE4 it's not transparent, it stays for 1 second,
and I could not deactivate it. I deactivated already all visual effects in
system-settings.
system-settings:
I'm happy about the tree view in system-settings, but I'm still missing
several intuitive features from kcontrol:
* tree navigation via keyboard:
- image you have selected a node in the tree and now you
* press ENTER: the content of the node should be loaded
* press LEFT: the parent node should be selected when the current node
is not expanded
* incremental search:
- was a bit better in kcontrol. For instance, enter "date" in the search
field. In kcontrol you immediately see the results and you need only one
mouse click to get there. In system-settings the incremental search leads
only to new node colors (grey for unimportant nodes, black for matches).
You still have to expand the interesting nodes by hand. I suggest to do
that automatically when changing the search value. In the end, this
colored tree (if expanded) is even better that the plain list in kcontrol
because you can easy categorize the hits.
* moving the slider between the tree and the current settings does not work.
But in some cases it would be necessary.
The issues regarding the plasma panel might and the KDE4 performance (not
mentioned here) might currently be the most important issues.
But also apparently minor issues like the navigation in trees are important
for. Fast keyword work was always one of the key features of KDE3, I think.
Sadly in KDE4 the possibility of keyboard navigation was completely ignored.
Just try to save a screenhot in ksnapshot by using only the keyboard. You
can navigate to a directory and press ENTER. Instead of changing into this
directory, ksnapshot thinks you want to enter the dir AND save the file
afterwards. Strange implementation! I would never expect both actions at the
same time.
But this issue concerns not only ksnapshot, but it's a general problem of
the same dialog and therefore concerns all KDE4 apps.
BTW, I would be also very interested in a super-tiny style for KDE4.
Regards,
Stefan
1:36 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Usability:
* In KDE3 you could change the time format of the clock applet by right
clicking on it and selecting "date & time format", that means with 2
clicks only.
In KDE4 this menu item has been removed. IMO that's counterintuitive. Many people
would expect this functionality there, I think. Currently the only way to change
the date & time format is to start system-settings and go to
"Personal"->"Region & Language"->"Country/Region
& Language". I doubt that all
KDE4 users will find this settings dialog immediately.
Comment and vote here:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162368
Waste of Space:
* For today let's just compare the kicker and the Plasma panel. Here are some
screenshots:
- http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/waste_of_space/kde3_kicker.png
- http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/waste_of_space/kde4_kicker.png
To be fair I gave both panels nearly the same size (it's hard to set an exact
panel size in KDE4 because the numeric input for the size has been removed in
KDE4, but that doesn't matter for me).
When I compare both pictures I see that...
- the KDE4 pager has much smaller previews (~65% of the size of the KDE3
pager)
- the KDE4 task manager is less readable than the KDE3 version, because of
the smaller font
- the KDE4 system tray consists only of one row which leads to an increased
horizontal width
- the KDE4 icons for the battery and network connection are 4 times larger
than in KDE3. But this is already a known issue that has been reported
here:
- https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182193
- https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167132
Please, please make a comment on this bug:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204917
Your input and research is very much needed there. Thanks!
And regarding vertical panels you have to
multiply this issue by 3, as
you can see in the nice screenshots in the second bug report)
And sorry, but whenever I see this over dimensioned KDE4 battery plasmoid
I have to laugh. It's so big but it's only able to show _5 different
states_!
That leads actually to this problem that you cannot distinguish between 38%
and 62%, because both states are represented by 2 bars. Well, I would be
interested in this difference, especially when the battery runs low.
I will never understand why some developers love to hide useful information.
But to see the differences to KDE3, let's compare the KDE4 battery plasmoid
with KLaptop. KLaptop uses only 1/4 of the icon size, but is able to represent
_81 different battery states_ (in 5x16 pixels)! The trick is to use not only
a vertical progress bar but another the horizontal progress bar in each pixel
row. When I saw this for the first time (some years ago) I was fascinated by
this brilliant idea and thought: Yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm using
KDE!
You have already posted a link to bug #167132 but for those who are
following along, that is the bug for reporting the too-large widgets.
system-settings:
I'm happy about the tree view in system-settings, but I'm still missing
several intuitive features from kcontrol:
* tree navigation via keyboard:
- image you have selected a node in the tree and now you
* press ENTER: the content of the node should be loaded
* press LEFT: the parent node should be selected when the current node
is not expanded
Can you check that against other tree views in KDE and either confirm
that this is inconsistent with the rest of KDE, or that all of KDE
needs to be improved here. Thanks!
* incremental search:
- was a bit better in kcontrol. For instance, enter "date" in the search
field. In kcontrol you immediately see the results and you need only one
mouse click to get there. In system-settings the incremental search leads
only to new node colors (grey for unimportant nodes, black for matches).
You still have to expand the interesting nodes by hand. I suggest to do
that automatically when changing the search value. In the end, this
colored tree (if expanded) is even better that the plain list in kcontrol
because you can easy categorize the hits.
How's this:
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205342
* moving the slider between the tree and the current
settings does not work.
But in some cases it would be necessary.
I do not understand, could you be more specific? Thanks.
The issues regarding the plasma panel might and the
KDE4 performance (not
mentioned here) might currently be the most important issues.
But also apparently minor issues like the navigation in trees are important
for. Fast keyword work was always one of the key features of KDE3, I think.
Sadly in KDE4 the possibility of keyboard navigation was completely ignored.
Just try to save a screenhot in ksnapshot by using only the keyboard. You
can navigate to a directory and press ENTER. Instead of changing into this
directory, ksnapshot thinks you want to enter the dir AND save the file
afterwards. Strange implementation! I would never expect both actions at the
same time.
Please write a "this is what I did, this is what I expected, this is
what happened" format, I'll verify and file it. but make sure that you
are on KDE 4.3 first, as it is a bit different than KDE 4.2. Thanks!
But this issue concerns not only ksnapshot, but
it's a general problem of
the same dialog and therefore concerns all KDE4 apps.
BTW, I would be also very interested in a super-tiny
style for KDE4.
Then comment on bug #204917, the more people who support it the better.
Thank you very much for your analysis! It is exactly the little
details like these that pile up and make KDE 3 so great, and at the
same time pile down and make KDE 4 frustrating to use.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
1:45 p.m.
New subject: Re[2]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Thank you very much for your analysis! It is exactly
the little
details like these that pile up and make KDE 3 so great, and at the
same time pile down and make KDE 4 frustrating to use.
Can you file a bug to include kicker in KDE4?
4:28 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Here's my list:
- No "MacOS like" panel
In KDE3 had the possibility to use the context menu of applications
on a special panel
- Sideband on the menu when in classic style
There is no longer the option to display the sideband on the left
side menu
- There is no way to use an large button for main menu (as kbfx)
You can change the button icon from the main menu, but if image is
large, it is resized to a square
Note: Translation from portuguese helped by Google
5:10 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Here's my list:
Thanks!
- No "MacOS like" panel
In KDE3 had the possibility to use the context menu of applications on a
special panel
Please assume that I am unfamiliar with MacOS and describe what you would like.
- Sideband on the menu when in classic style
There is no longer the option to display the sideband on the left side menu
Can you please let me know what function that sideband provides? What
can you do with the sideband that you cannot do in the current Classic
style menu?
- There is no way to use an large button for main menu
(as kbfx)
You can change the button icon from the main menu, but if image is large,
it is resized to a square
Please comment and vote:
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205387
Note: Translation from portuguese helped by Google
No problem, my native language is not English either! You can have
Google translate it into Hebrew!
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
3 Sep
3 Sep
2:10 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Resuming, commenting and expanding my list:
Dotan Cohen escreveu:
http://frinring.wordpress.com/2009/01/29/mac-style-menubar-for-kde-4-and-ot…
Aesthetic function. Customizability, better readability. There is
already a bug about it (votes are wellcome :) )
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164519
Thanks!
Other two bugs:
- When selecting multiple imagens and select Open with Gwenview,
multiple instaces of the program are opened
- Fail trying to set a custom pannel background (System Settings >
Advanced > Desktop Theme Details )
Here's my
list:
Thanks!
- No "MacOS like" panel
In KDE3 had the possibility to use the context menu of applications on a
special panel
Please assume that I am unfamiliar with MacOS and describe what you would like.
- Sideband on the menu when in classic style
There is no longer the option to display the sideband on the left side menu
Can you please let me know what function that sideband provides? What
can you do with the sideband that you cannot do in the current Classic
style menu?
- There is no
way to use an large button for main menu (as kbfx)
You can change the button icon from the main menu, but if image is large,
it is resized to a square
Please comment and vote:
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205387
Note:
Translation from portuguese helped by Google
No problem, my native language is not English either! You can have
Google translate it into Hebrew!
31 Aug
31 Aug
6:28 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Dotan Cohen schrieb:
Thanks for finding this bug report. My issues have been already mentioned in comment #3
and James Richard Tyrer is working on it. So I'm curious about the new version of the
clock plasmoid.
Good question if this is solvable by a new theme. If yes, then KDE4 would be great!
But so far I could not test any desktop themes at all, because system-settings does
not apply the themes I select. But there are already several bugs related to this
problem:
- https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198572
- https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205330
- https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182823
Yes, that's great. Thanks!
Ah, sorry. I meant the splitter between the tree and the current settings, marked
in this screenshot with "Drag here":
http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/system-settings-drag.png
This screenshot shall illustrate why dragging this splitter might be useful:
http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/system-settings-bug.png
As long as it is not needed I don't want to have a horizontal scrollbar in the
tree. That's why I would try to use the splitter to resize the tree.
Open ksnapshot and create a screenshot. Press "Save As", click on
"Home", and
click on the background of the directory list. Now you can do a quick keyboard
navigation. Enter the directory name in which you want to change. Then press
ENTER. Normally one would expect that you only change into this directory when
pressing ENTER. But the open dialog does not only change into the directory,
but saves also the file in this dir afterwards. This is unintuitive. If the
cursor / focus is in the directory list ENTER should only be used for the
navigation in the directory tree. Only when I changed to the filename input
field (by pressing TAB) and press ENTER I would expect the file to get saved.
Thanks, too!
Regards,
Stefan
Usability:
* In KDE3 you could change the time format of the clock applet by right
clicking on it and selecting "date & time format", that means with 2
clicks only.
In KDE4 this menu item has been removed. IMO that's counterintuitive. Many people
would expect this functionality there, I think. Currently the only way to change
the date & time format is to start system-settings and go to
"Personal"->"Region & Language"->"Country/Region
& Language". I doubt that all
KDE4 users will find this settings dialog immediately.
Comment and vote here:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162368 Waste of Space:
* For today let's just compare the kicker and the Plasma panel. Here are some
screenshots:
- http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/waste_of_space/kde3_kicker.png
- http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/waste_of_space/kde4_kicker.png
To be fair I gave both panels nearly the same size (it's hard to set an exact
panel size in KDE4 because the numeric input for the size has been removed in
KDE4, but that doesn't matter for me).
When I compare both pictures I see that...
- the KDE4 pager has much smaller previews (~65% of the size of the KDE3
pager)
- the KDE4 task manager is less readable than the KDE3 version, because of
the smaller font
- the KDE4 system tray consists only of one row which leads to an increased
horizontal width
- the KDE4 icons for the battery and network connection are 4 times larger
than in KDE3. But this is already a known issue that has been reported
here:
- https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182193
- https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167132
Please, please make a comment on this bug:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204917
Your input and research is very much needed there. Thanks!
> And regarding vertical panels you have to multiply this issue by 3, as
> you can see in the nice screenshots in the second bug report)
> And sorry, but whenever I see this over dimensioned KDE4 battery plasmoid
> I have to laugh. It's so big but it's only able to show _5 different
states_!
> That leads actually to this problem that you cannot distinguish between 38%
> and 62%, because both states are represented by 2 bars. Well, I would be
> interested in this difference, especially when the battery runs low.
> I will never understand why some developers love to hide useful information.
>
> But to see the differences to KDE3, let's compare the KDE4 battery plasmoid
> with KLaptop. KLaptop uses only 1/4 of the icon size, but is able to represent
> _81 different battery states_ (in 5x16 pixels)! The trick is to use not only
> a vertical progress bar but another the horizontal progress bar in each pixel
> row. When I saw this for the first time (some years ago) I was fascinated by
> this brilliant idea and thought: Yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm
using
> KDE!
>
I've filed a bug addressing the super-size battery plasmoid without useful
information:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205707
You're welcome to post comments or vote for it.
You have already posted a link to bug #167132 but for those who are
following along, that is the bug for reporting the too-large widgets.
Hm, I couldn't find another KDE application with a tree so fast. Sorry.
system-settings:
I'm happy about the tree view in system-settings, but I'm still missing
several intuitive features from kcontrol:
* tree navigation via keyboard:
- image you have selected a node in the tree and now you
* press ENTER: the content of the node should be loaded
* press LEFT: the parent node should be selected when the current node
is not expanded
Can you check that against other tree views in KDE and either confirm
that this is inconsistent with the rest of KDE, or that all of KDE
needs to be improved here. Thanks! * incremental search:
- was a bit better in kcontrol. For instance, enter "date" in the search
field. In kcontrol you immediately see the results and you need only one
mouse click to get there. In system-settings the incremental search leads
only to new node colors (grey for unimportant nodes, black for matches).
You still have to expand the interesting nodes by hand. I suggest to do
that automatically when changing the search value. In the end, this
colored tree (if expanded) is even better that the plain list in kcontrol
because you can easy categorize the hits.
How's this:
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205342 * moving the slider between the tree and the
current settings does not work.
But in some cases it would be necessary.
I do not understand, could you be more specific? Thanks. 
The issues regarding the plasma panel might and
the KDE4 performance (not
mentioned here) might currently be the most important issues.
But also apparently minor issues like the navigation in trees are important
for. Fast keyword work was always one of the key features of KDE3, I think.
Sadly in KDE4 the possibility of keyboard navigation was completely ignored.
Just try to save a screenhot in ksnapshot by using only the keyboard. You
can navigate to a directory and press ENTER. Instead of changing into this
directory, ksnapshot thinks you want to enter the dir AND save the file
afterwards. Strange implementation! I would never expect both actions at the
same time.
Please write a "this is what I did, this is what I expected, this is
what happened" format, I'll verify and file it. but make sure that you
are on KDE 4.3 first, as it is a bit different than KDE 4.2. Thanks! But this issue concerns not only ksnapshot, but
it's a general problem of
the same dialog and therefore concerns all KDE4 apps.
BTW, I would be also very interested in a
super-tiny style for KDE4.
Then comment on bug #204917, the more people who support it the better.
Thank you very much for your analysis! It is exactly the little
details like these that pile up and make KDE 3 so great, and at the
same time pile down and make KDE 4 frustrating to use.
11:31 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Comment and
vote here:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162368
Thanks for finding this bug report. My issues have been already mentioned in comment #3
and James Richard Tyrer is working on it. So I'm curious about the new version of
the
clock plasmoid.
Your input and research is very much needed there. Thanks!
> And regarding vertical panels you have to multiply this issue by 3, as
> you can see in the nice screenshots in the second bug report)
> And sorry, but whenever I see this over dimensioned KDE4 battery plasmoid
> I have to laugh. It's so big but it's only able to show _5 different
states_!
> That leads actually to this problem that you cannot distinguish between 38%
> and 62%, because both states are represented by 2 bars. Well, I would be
> interested in this difference, especially when the battery runs low.
> I will never understand why some developers love to hide useful information.
>
> But to see the differences to KDE3, let's compare the KDE4 battery plasmoid
> with KLaptop. KLaptop uses only 1/4 of the icon size, but is able to represent
> _81 different battery states_ (in 5x16 pixels)! The trick is to use not only
> a vertical progress bar but another the horizontal progress bar in each pixel
> row. When I saw this for the first time (some years ago) I was fascinated by
> this brilliant idea and thought: Yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm
using
> KDE!
>
I've filed a bug addressing the super-size battery plasmoid without useful
information:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205707
You're welcome to post comments or vote for it.
Can you check
that against other tree views in KDE and either confirm
that this is inconsistent with the rest of KDE, or that all of KDE
needs to be improved here. Thanks!
Hm, I couldn't find another KDE application with a tree so fast. Sorry.
* moving the slider between the tree and the current
settings does not work.
But in some cases it would be necessary.
I do not understand, could you be more specific? Thanks. As long as it is not needed I don't want to have a
horizontal scrollbar in the
tree. That's why I would try to use the splitter to resize the tree.
I agree, I would even prefer to see lines wrap than a horizontal
scrollbar appearing! I filed this:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205780
If you want to attach your second screenshot there, it would be great.
But also apparently minor issues like the navigation
in trees are important
for. Fast keyword work was always one of the key features of KDE3, I think.
Sadly in KDE4 the possibility of keyboard navigation was completely ignored.
Just try to save a screenhot in ksnapshot by using only the keyboard. You
can navigate to a directory and press ENTER. Instead of changing into this
directory, ksnapshot thinks you want to enter the dir AND save the file
afterwards. Strange implementation! I would never expect both actions at the
same time.
Please write a "this is what I did, this is what I expected, this is
what happened" format, I'll verify and file it. but make sure that you
are on KDE 4.3 first, as it is a bit different than KDE 4.2. Thanks!
1:07 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I've filed
a bug addressing the super-size battery plasmoid without useful information:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205707
You're welcome to post comments or vote for it.
While I agree with your assessment of the situation, you are lucky
that the bug was a dupe. Your sarcasm would have been the end of the
bug, fixed or not. Please, continue filing bugs but don't use sarcasm.
You might want to see this bug regarding the size of the plasmoid as
well:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167132 Can you
check that against other tree views in KDE and either confirm
that this is inconsistent with the rest of KDE, or that all of KDE
needs to be improved here. Thanks!
Hm, I couldn't find another KDE application
with a tree so fast. Sorry.
* moving the slider between the tree and the current
settings does not work.
But in some cases it would be necessary.
I do not understand, could you be more specific? Thanks. As long as it is not needed I don't want to
have a horizontal scrollbar in the
tree. That's why I would try to use the splitter to resize the tree.
I agree, I would even prefer to see lines wrap than a horizontal
scrollbar appearing! I filed this:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205780
If you want to attach your second screenshot there, it would be great. But also apparently minor issues like the navigation
in trees are important
for. Fast keyword work was always one of the key features of KDE3, I think.
Sadly in KDE4 the possibility of keyboard navigation was completely ignored.
Just try to save a screenhot in ksnapshot by using only the keyboard. You
can navigate to a directory and press ENTER. Instead of changing into this
directory, ksnapshot thinks you want to enter the dir AND save the file
afterwards. Strange implementation! I would never expect both actions at the
same time.
Please write a "this is what I did, this is what I expected, this
is
what happened" format, I'll verify and file it. but make sure that you
are on KDE 4.3 first, as it is a bit different than KDE 4.2. Thanks!
Thanks, Stefan. You really have an eye for details, please keep me
update with them of file them! But just remember when filing that the
devs demand a very factual style, please don't give them a reason to
evade the bug with sarcasm. Have a great week!
Yes, I try to get rid of my personal dislike of KDE4 and I will be more careful
when filing bugs in future.
Regards,
Stefan
1:46 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Hm, when I wrote this text yesterday I thought about
the battery plasmoid
in more detail, and I came to the conclusion that it can't be meant seriously.
Therefore I thought it would be OK to write it that way. Seemingly I was
wrong in this point. Sorry.
No problem.
Furthermore I'm not sure if the duplicated bug
report is going into the
direction of KLaptop. Doesn't seem so. They are not discussing a steadily
progress bar. But if I would join this discussion it could get very long.
It's better for me to wait some months. Maybe in the meantime another
developer writes an alternative plasmoid addressing my issue. I think
that's more likely than fixing the default battery plasmoid.
It might not be in the same direction, but it does seem to address the issue.
Kmail and
Dolphin have tree views.
OK, that might be. I'm not familiar with them. I'm going to test them in the
next days.
Thanks,
Stefan. You really have an eye for details, please keep me
update with them of file them! But just remember when filing that the
devs demand a very factual style, please don't give them a reason to
evade the bug with sarcasm. Have a great week!
Yes, I try to get rid of my personal dislike of KDE4 and I will be more careful
when filing bugs in future.
7:21 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Dotan Cohen schrieb:
Kmail and Dolphin have tree views.
The tree view navigation of dolphin is already perfect. It has all the features I
mentioned in my last mail. Also kmail has the
functionality to jump to the parent node by pressing LEFT (here UP and DOWN are not used
for tree navigation). Oh, I've updated my
system and now system-settings is also capable of the "move to parent node"
function. Very good. The only function that is still
missing is the ENTER action to open the corresponding settings in right part of the
window. I've filed a feature request for that
here:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205830
Regards,
Stefan
2 Sep
2 Sep
11:36 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
The tree view navigation of dolphin is already
perfect. It has all the features I mentioned in my last mail. Also kmail has the
functionality to jump to the parent node by pressing LEFT (here UP and DOWN are not used
for tree navigation). Oh, I've updated my
system and now system-settings is also capable of the "move to parent node"
function. Very good. The only function that is still
missing is the ENTER action to open the corresponding settings in right part of the
window. I've filed a feature request for that
here:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205830
Regards,
Stefan
Thanks, Stefan, I commented and voted for the bug.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
12:24 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
The tree view navigation of dolphin is already
perfect. It has all the features I mentioned in my last mail. Also kmail has the
functionality to jump to the parent node by pressing LEFT (here UP and DOWN are not used
for tree navigation). Oh, I've updated my
system and now system-settings is also capable of the "move to parent node"
function. Very good. The only function that is still
missing is the ENTER action to open the corresponding settings in right part of the
window. I've filed a feature request for that
here:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205830
You might be interested in this bug as well:
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205988
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
24 Aug
24 Aug
1:45 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
First of all, I did not know that Timothy is really fixing bugs in KDE3 and
implements even new features. Wow! That's great. Thank you Tim!
I think this is also a useful hint for the website, because the unmaintenance
of KDE3 is the major reason why people are switching from KDE3 to other DEs
and in same cases also to KDE4 (although I don't know any KDE4 users).
Thus, I would suggest a hint to the main page. Maybe you can even find other
programmers that are going to help you with the maintenance of KDE3 and there
programs. I would immediate join this project if I would be a good C programmer.
On the other hand, I also want to thank Dotan for his work. He's offering
this spare time to help improving KDE4 and making it usable. Although you
might think that KDE4 will never reach the usability stage of KDE3 (since KDE4
is using a much slower Qt I'm also pessimistic regarding that) you have to
admit that as long as only one person is working on KDE3 you cannot expect
major improvements for KDE3. I think it will get harder and harder to keep
KDE3 up-to-date. And therefore sometimes you have to switch to certain KDE4
applications if you want to use new features like the form filling feature in
okular. That's why we all can only benefit from Dotans support. For those who
feel annoyed by Dotans mails, please just ignore them, because some of use
appreciate his work.
Regards,
Stefan
kb9vqf(a)pearsoncomputing.net schrieb:
Hope is nice,
but with no developers working on KDE 3 it will soon
suffer the same bitrot that all abandoned software suffers (think
BeOS, Amiga).
Hi Dotan,
While I don't agree with the tone of some of the replies you received (I
do appreciate what you are doing here) I need to respond to this
particular point.
I *am* developing KDE3. If you look in the PPA that I maintain, you will
see a whole slew of my patches that add new features, fix old bugs, and
generally keep the code compilable and functional as the backend libraries
change over time.
Now, from all appearances, *if* I were to stop development then yes, KDE
would bitrot and become unusable--purely because no one else has stepped
forward to assist.
I use KDE3.5 for a different purpose than some. My desktop is configured
to look, feel, and act like an enhanced version of Windows XP in "Classic"
mode. Like it or not, and I know many would argue with me, Microsoft had
one of the best desktop interfaces available with that release. If they
hadn't abandoned it, I would still be an avid Microsoft user.
Likewise, I know I will be argued with up and down on this, but KDE4
seems, from a look-n-feel perspective only, to be a hybrid of Windows
Vista and the latest Mac OS. I hate those two operating systems. In
almost every design choice. Period.
I am not alone here. Many engineers I have talked with do not like the
new interface. There are some of us who use a GUI simply because more
information can be placed on it, and many tasks made faster, than the
command line. Gnome and KDE4 don't have very much *useful* and *relevant*
information on the screen at any given time. These people have also
mentioned that the interface has a clunky feel, that they are having
difficulty just getting basic tasks done in a streamlined, efficient
fashion. Simply, more clicks required in the UI per task == more time
wasted.
The clunkiness has a direct impact on this. The DE should recede into the
background, not constantly push its way into the foreground. When it
shoves its way into the users programs, in the form of excessively large
menu bars, taskbars, and buttons, valuable screen space is stolen from the
user's application, forcing more scrolling, window management operations,
and application menu use inside the user's program.
This is a common flaw with the new direction all desktops seem to be
heading in. They are all pretty (well, actually, the Mac OS is pretty,
while Vista and KDE4 are really ugly), and seem to work well--until you
try to use them in your job, when you have 4 clients and 2 managers
demanding you get X, Y, and Z done *NOW*. Then you find that in order to
multitask in any sensible form you will need to learn to click constantly,
everywhere, and end up purchasing a really big replacement monitor. Yet,
somehow, your old monitor was perfectly adequate under Windows XP and
KDE3.5. Your programs haven't changed. So why again is your DE forcing
you to buy new hardware and slowing you down?
Hmmm.
No thanks.
I have even caused some older folks, who have used Windows since it came
out, to switch to Linux. How? By showing them a truly better desktop
interface: Windows XP classic + some sorely needed features--in other
words, KDE3.5. They all hated where Windows was going, and Mac was too
limiting.
So, rant aside, try adding a "super-tiny-taskbar, icons, buttons, and
menus" option. Also make an "angular buttons option" so that they can be
compacted on the screen the way they always were. (Actually IIRC that
last one finally does exist in KDE3).
Also, make it so that the shiny stuff can be turned off. Menu drop
shadows are OK, but shiny rounded menus are distracting.
Bring back the old KDE control center.
Bring back task tray icons as plasmoid replacements. I DON'T LIKE having
to minimize my windows (an extra click) to get at something critical like
the network manager plasmoid and then have to un-minimize them all again
when I am done (another extra click). To say nothing of having to check
connectivity in another program and then go back to the plasmoid....click
click click click click....grrrr...Windows was so much better... This is
a massive waste of the user's time and is, bluntly, a really, really
stupid design decision. You NEVER want to make the users think what I
just wrote.
I like putting icons on my desktop. Only icons. Can we turn off that
stupid cashew yet?
The UI fonts are way too large.
Why can't I *easily* and *intuitively* reconfigure something as basic as
my desktop???
You get the point. Many of these items are design decisions that the
developers made to "set KDE4 apart". I don't think they will be fixed
anytime soon. Feel free to surprise me though! :-)
Timothy Pearson
KDE3.5 Maintainer
Embedded Systems Engineer
Raptor Engineering
3:31 p.m.
New subject: Re[2]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
And therefore sometimes you have to switch to certain
KDE4
applications if you want to use new features like the form filling feature in
okular.
At that case I think the GTK->Qt3 wrapper should be improved (there are some bugs with
it) and Qt4->Qt3 wrapper also would be great or at least, porting of Qt3 themes to Qt4
so the applications to look similar.
23 Aug
23 Aug
9:17 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
KDE 4 is a rewrite of KDE, not a Qt4 port of KDE 3
No. KDE4 is not a rewrite of KDE3. It's completely new environment. It's further
from KDE3
than Gnome, LXDE or XFCE.
push the devs (who might not have the same attention
to detail as us) in the
right direction.
Then the devs would need push to the direction of KDE3. I am in doubt however that the
devs of KDE4 will eventually abandon plasma.
The day when KDE 3 will no longer be viable is getting
closer every
day.
Hopefully this will never occur because OpenSoursce ideoilogy implies choice dispite some
people attempting to strip us from this right. Anyway why do you put KDE4-related posts in
this message list? Why not in Gnome list or Xfce list? Do you think you more easily find
here new converts in your faith? Please stop with advertising spam for KDE4 here.
10:34 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
KDE 4 is a
rewrite of KDE, not a Qt4 port of KDE 3
No. KDE4 is not a rewrite of KDE3. It's completely new environment. It's further
from KDE3
than Gnome, LXDE or XFCE.
push the devs
(who might not have the same attention to detail as us) in the
right direction.
Then the devs would need push to the direction of KDE3. I am in doubt however that the
devs of KDE4 will eventually abandon plasma.
The day when
KDE 3 will no longer be viable is getting closer every
day.
Hopefully this will never occur because OpenSoursce ideoilogy implies choice dispite some
people attempting to strip us from this right. Anyway why do you put KDE4-related posts in this
message list? Why not in Gnome list or Xfce list? Do you think you more easily find here
new converts in your faith? Please stop with advertising spam for KDE4 here.
I am not advertising nor spamming. I am asking what is preventing some
people from moving to KDE 4, assuming that they want to. I am not
forcing anyone to do anything. I have no need to ask Gnome or XFCE
users what their DE provides that KDE 4 does not, because their DE is
not abandonware. Ask Gnome and XFCE users what KDE 4 is missing for
them would in fact be trying to get converts. That is not my goal. My
goal is to help people who are stuck using abandoned software.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
1:50 p.m.
New subject: Re[2]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I will give you that. However, it is a goal of KDE 4
to match KDE 3 in
features and usability
No. This is not the goal of KDE4.
What is the direction of KDE 3? Seriously, Ilya,
please post a
specific example of a fix that would help make KDE 4 closer to KDE 3
I think they should simply revert all changes made after KDE3.5. I know no useful changes
since then.
However, even though you have the right to continue
using and
developing KDE 3, nobody is doing that.
I think KDE3.5 does not need too much development now. It's OK as of current state.
Sometimes it is evident that vandalist "development" is much worser.
My goal is to make KDE 4 as good as KDE 3
Well, revert all changes since KDE3.5 and it'll be as good.
I am not advertising nor spamming.
Well, better description is 'crusading'. Like coming to a synagogue and trying to
convince everybody that Judaism is 'outdated'.
I have no need to ask Gnome or XFCE
users what
their DE provides that KDE 4 does not, because their DE is
not abandonware.
'Abandonware' is a term from proprietary world.
Ask Gnome and XFCE users what KDE 4 is missing for
them would in fact be trying to get converts.
Just the same here.
1:59 p.m.
New subject: Re[2]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I will give
you that. However, it is a goal of KDE 4 to match KDE 3 in
features and usability
No. This is not the goal of KDE4.
What is the
direction of KDE 3? Seriously, Ilya, please post a
specific example of a fix that would help make KDE 4 closer to KDE 3
I think they should simply revert all changes made after KDE3.5. I know no useful changes
since then.
However, even
though you have the right to continue using and
developing KDE 3, nobody is doing that.
I think KDE3.5 does not need too much development now. It's OK as of current state.
Sometimes it is evident that vandalist "development" is much worser. My goal is to
make KDE 4 as good as KDE 3
Well, revert all changes since KDE3.5 and it'll be as good.
I am not
advertising nor spamming.
Well, better description is 'crusading'. Like coming to a synagogue and trying to
convince everybody that Judaism is 'outdated'.
2:23 p.m.
New subject: Re[4]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Then please continue using KDE 3 and let me help those
who are stuck
with it and would like to use the more current version but are unable
to do so.
KDE4 is not a 'more current' version of KDE3 (in the same sense as KDE3 is more
modern version of KDE2 and KDE2 is more modern version of KDE1). I'd say it is not KDE
at all.
No, I am asking what features are missing in KDE 4 to
the people who
actually know what features are missing and have not migrated because
of that.
I am one of those people. But describing what features missing in Gnome compared to KDE3
would be much quicker. I dont think you wish to see here hundreeds of pages describing
differences between KDE4 and KDE3 which make it unusable.
2:53 p.m.
New subject: Re[4]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
No, I am
asking what features are missing in KDE 4 to the people who
actually know what features are missing and have not migrated because
of that.
I am one of those people. But describing what features missing in Gnome compared to KDE3
would be much quicker. I dont think you wish to see here hundreeds of pages describing
differences between KDE4 and KDE3 which make it unusable.
3:32 p.m.
New subject: Re[4]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I'd like to see stackable panels for KDE 4. That way I can put the "Run
Command" applet and the system tray in the top one, and everything else in
the bottom one. KDE 3.5 is so far the only DE that will do this for me (Xfce
doesn't have stackable panels either, and GNOME doesn't have a panel applet
like that.)
On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
compared
to KDE3 would be much quicker. I dont think you wish to see here
hundreeds of pages describing differences between KDE4 and KDE3 which make
it unusable.
If you have a list of hundreds of properties/features of KDE 4 that
make it unusable, then please, please send it to me! You can send it
off list if you feel that is appropriate.
I don't need to see the _all_ differences between them, just those
that make KDE 4 unusable for you. Put the more important ones at the
top as I will handle them one by one. Thanks!
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
No, I am asking what features are missing in KDE 4 to
the people who
actually know what features are missing and have not migrated because
of that.
I am one of those people. But describing what features missing in Gnome
4:08 p.m.
New subject: Re[4]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I'd like to see stackable panels for KDE 4. That
way I can put the "Run
Command" applet and the system tray in the top one, and everything else in
the bottom one. KDE 3.5 is so far the only DE that will do this for me (Xfce
doesn't have stackable panels either, and GNOME doesn't have a panel applet
like that.)
Here is the bug:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165792
Please comment and vote!
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
4:10 p.m.
New subject: Re[4]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
When you comment, please make sure that you answer Aaron's comment
#15. He is the guy who will implement the feature, so answering his
concern is very important.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
11:03 p.m.
New subject: Re[6]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Well, I'll try to describe the most annoying things in KDE4.
First of all, as already mentioned, it's gigantism. Take for example Plastik theme in
KDE3.5 and its much worser version Plastique in KDE4. Even with the same fonts Plastique
has larger buttons and menu bars as if they were designed for Chinese ideograms.
Next is sharp lines. KDE3.5 was advertised for it's sharp lines compared to Gnome. You
can read about it even in the 'about' box. But KDE4 becomes inverse of it. You can
also compare Plastique to Plastik to see the sharp lines around the buttons removed.
Aside of lyrics.
- The panel should use widget style of Qt even if the Qt style does not provide special
style for Plasma. So the panel and other windows should always use the same style.
- The icons on the desktop should use file manager, so it would be possible to make with
desktop icons the same operations as with icons in file manager.
- Should be possibility to disable all transparent plastic-like effects, for example those
appearing when hovering over desktop icons.
- Functionality of file manager shold be restored. For example, it was a surprise for me
that there is no the very basic option "open each folder in a new window" in
Dolphin. This function exists in KDE3, Nautilus, Windows, MacOS, OpenGEM, Seal, Ozone, CDE
etc. In Konqueror this option appears but does not work (as of KDE 4.2).
- Look of file manager should be restored. Difficult to describe but some of the things is
too large distances between icons, annoying pictures apopearing when hovering a mouse over
icons, selection with a bad-looking rectangle like in MinuetOS, bad looking tree view
etc.
- Ability to place on the desktop icons for special places such as Storage devices, Trash,
Home, Network etc.
I would like also port of KDE artwork such as Slick icon theme, Light Qt style etc.
This is a screenshot of my desktop under Ubuntu Jaunty:
http://www.linux.org.ru/gallery/3841036.png
Now I do not use KDE because KDE3 from the semi-official repo caused problems with other
packages and is incomplete. I am now considering to switch to another distro with better
KDE3 support (such as SuSE of Alt Linux).
From technical poit of view I'd like the window manager to provide the option
'sync to vblank' in the same way as Compiz does. Otherwise there is tearing on
games and when moving windows. To day as I know only Compiz can do it in proper way.
24 Aug
24 Aug
12:10 a.m.
New subject: Re[6]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
This is a screenshot of my desktop under Ubuntu Jaunty:
http://www.linux.org.ru/gallery/3841036.png
Now I do not use KDE because KDE3 from the semi-official repo caused
problems with other packages and is incomplete. I am now considering to
switch to another distro with better KDE3 support (such as SuSE of Alt
Linux).
Nice desktop! I like how clean it is.
Did you file any bug at http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net regarding the
package incompatibilities and missing programs? I have been restoring
many missing programs for the Karmic release, including full international
l18n support.
Also, if you have feature requests for any KDE components, please file
them at the same place.
Thanks!
Timothy Pearson
KDE3.5 Maintainer
3:36 p.m.
New subject: Re[8]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Bugzilla has suffered an internal error. Please save this page and send it to
kb9vqf(a)pearsoncomputing.net with details of what you were doing at the time this message
appeared.
URL: http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/post_bug.cgi
4:43 p.m.
New subject: Re[8]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Bugzilla has suffered an internal error. Please save
this page and send it
to kb9vqf(a)pearsoncomputing.net with details of what you were doing at the
time this message appeared.
URL: http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/post_bug.cgi
Thanks for the heads up. This happened when you filed Bug 110, correct?
(http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=110)
It looks like it couldn't send a confirmation Email, but the bug was
entered correctly into the system.
I am working on this.
Thanks!
Tim
28 Aug
28 Aug
4:18 p.m.
New subject: Re[10]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
There are multiple issues with your repo which make it unusable:
* Why in your repoisitories for Jaunty there are no kubuntu-desktop-kde3 and kde-kde3? How
to install it without enabling repos for other distros?
* Why installed konsole from KDE4 instead of that for KDE3?
* Why Qt3 applications all removed when KDE3 uninstalled, even those which were installed
before KDE3?
* Why there is special version of Compiz for KDE3? Why it cannot use Compiz from Ubuntu?
Why it breaks Compiz completerly if not to uninstall conventional Compiz before installing
special KDE3 version? It should at least worn of conflict between the packages.
* Why the packages are broken if to install KDE4 along KDE3?
30 Aug
30 Aug
10:15 p.m.
New subject: Re[10]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
* Why in your repoisitories for Jaunty there are no
kubuntu-desktop-kde3 and kde-kde3? How to install it without enabling repos for other
distros?
Obviously I'm just guessing here, but perhaps it has to do with the
size restrictions on PPAs. Plus, it's not enabling repos for other
distros...it's just enabling the repo originally set up for intrepid
(a different release, not a different distro)...makes sense,
considering how many things haven't changed, to have the jaunty repo
just be the updates and changes from the KDE3 release for Intrepid.
The modular and hierarchical nature of the Debian .deb/apt packaging
system makes this both the easiest and arguably the best way to
accomplish setting up the repos for Ubuntu+KDE3.
11:07 p.m.
New subject: Re[10]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I think that you have to enable the KDE3 PPA for Intrepid as well, even if
you are running Jaunty. Try that and see if that helps.
On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Keith Z-G <keithzg(a)gmail.com> wrote:
* Why in your
repoisitories for Jaunty there are no kubuntu-desktop-kde3
and kde-kde3? How to
install it without enabling repos for other distros?
Obviously I'm just guessing here, but perhaps it has to do with the
size restrictions on PPAs. Plus, it's not enabling repos for other
distros...it's just enabling the repo originally set up for intrepid
(a different release, not a different distro)...makes sense,
considering how many things haven't changed, to have the jaunty repo
just be the updates and changes from the KDE3 release for Intrepid.
The modular and hierarchical nature of the Debian .deb/apt packaging
system makes this both the easiest and arguably the best way to
accomplish setting up the repos for Ubuntu+KDE3.
11:34 p.m.
New subject: Re[12]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
It is completely broken.
28 Aug
28 Aug
6:18 p.m.
New subject: Re[10]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Why I cannot remove ksmserver-kde3 from system: synaptuic says it returned error code 2/
How me to remove it?
24 Aug
24 Aug
2:11 a.m.
New subject: Re[6]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
While I agree in many respects, unless I'm misinterpreting what you
mean, you are wrong about two of the issues. I can easily tell KDE4's
Konqueror "open in tabs" when folders are selected, and it opens a new
tab for each (this is 4.3 though, I didn't start using KDE4's
Konqueror much at all until the 4.3 RCs started coming out). Also,
through some confluence KDE-related installs on my 13" laptop I ended
up with some .desktop files, for example a Home.desktop one. It works
just fine, and on the rare occasions I load a KDE4 session on said
laptop (normally I use LXDE, Openbox or KDE3.5, but sometimes I'm
adventurous) the Home.desktop file works fine.
For the record the makeup of the Home.desktop file is:
---------------------------
[Desktop Entry]
Encoding=UTF-8
Name=Home
GenericName=Personal Files
URL[$e]=$HOME
Icon=user-home
Type=Link
X-Ubuntu-Gettext-Domain=desktop_kdebase-runtime
--------------------------
I assume it'd be easy to create .desktop files for the other special
locations you'd want, like Trash and whatnot. Naturally I haven't
bothered since I generally use neither KDE4 nor the "desktop" on my
laptop, but you know.
2009/8/23 Илья Черных <neptunia(a)mail.ru>ru>:
Well, I'll try to describe the most annoying
things in KDE4.
First of all, as already mentioned, it's gigantism. Take for example Plastik theme in
KDE3.5 and its much worser version Plastique in KDE4. Even with the same fonts Plastique
has larger buttons and menu bars as if they were designed for Chinese ideograms.
Next is sharp lines. KDE3.5 was advertised for it's sharp lines compared to Gnome.
You can read about it even in the 'about' box. But KDE4 becomes inverse of it. You
can also compare Plastique to Plastik to see the sharp lines around the buttons removed.
Aside of lyrics.
- The panel should use widget style of Qt even if the Qt style does not provide special
style for Plasma. So the panel and other windows should always use the same style.
- The icons on the desktop should use file manager, so it would be possible to make with
desktop icons the same operations as with icons in file manager.
- Should be possibility to disable all transparent plastic-like effects, for example
those appearing when hovering over desktop icons.
- Functionality of file manager shold be restored. For example, it was a surprise for me
that there is no the very basic option "open each folder in a new window" in
Dolphin. This function exists in KDE3, Nautilus, Windows, MacOS, OpenGEM, Seal, Ozone, CDE
etc. In Konqueror this option appears but does not work (as of KDE 4.2).
- Look of file manager should be restored. Difficult to describe but some of the things
is too large distances between icons, annoying pictures apopearing when hovering a mouse
over icons, selection with a bad-looking rectangle like in MinuetOS, bad looking tree view
etc.
- Ability to place on the desktop icons for special places such as Storage devices,
Trash, Home, Network etc.
I would like also port of KDE artwork such as Slick icon theme, Light Qt style etc.
This is a screenshot of my desktop under Ubuntu Jaunty:
http://www.linux.org.ru/gallery/3841036.png
Now I do not use KDE because KDE3 from the semi-official repo caused problems with other
packages and is incomplete. I am now considering to switch to another distro with better
KDE3 support (such as SuSE of Alt Linux).
From technical poit of view I'd like the window manager to provide the option
'sync to vblank' in the same way as Compiz does. Otherwise there is tearing on
games and when moving windows. To day as I know only Compiz can do it in proper way.
7:57 a.m.
New subject: Re[8]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I can easily tell KDE4's
Konqueror "open in tabs" when folders are selected, and it opens a new
tab for each
I am not about tabs, but about windows.
I assume it'd be easy to create .desktop files for
the other special
locations you'd want, like Trash and whatnot. Naturally I haven't
bothered since I generally use neither KDE4 nor the "desktop" on my
laptop, but you know.
What the desktop file should be for storage media in KDE4? It it not like a physical
folder.
KDE3.5 had pre-made desktop files for those locations including translations to other
languages. So it you change the locale, ypu'll see the icon description in a new
language.
7:37 a.m.
New subject: Re[6]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
First of all, as already mentioned, it's
gigantism. Take for example Plastik theme in KDE3.5 and its much worser version Plastique
in KDE4. Even with the same fonts Plastique has larger buttons and menu bars as if they
were designed for Chinese ideograms.
Please mention that on this bug, so that the devs will know it:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204917
Be polite, not accusatory! Thanks!
Next is sharp lines. KDE3.5 was advertised for
it's sharp lines compared to Gnome. You can read about it even in the 'about'
box. But KDE4 becomes inverse of it. You can also compare Plastique to Plastik to see the
sharp lines around the buttons removed.
Could you post the text explaining this? I have never heard about it,
and in fact it may no longer be a goal of KDE. I will ask about that
on the KDE list when I see the 'about' text. Thanks.
Aside of lyrics.
I do not understand.
- The panel should use widget style of Qt even if the
Qt style does not provide special style for Plasma. So the panel and other windows should
always use the same style.
I think that this is what themes are for. If the Qt style does not
provide special style for Plasma then how would you expect it to work?
I am willing to follow up on the idea with you, but I do not
understand the problem. Do you want styles to be more akin to themes?
- The icons on the desktop should use file manager, so
it would be possible to make with desktop icons the same operations as with icons in file
manager.
Do you mean that the context menu of the Folder View plasmoid should
be the same as the context menu of the default file manager? That is a
great idea, here, I filed it:
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204947
- Should be possibility to disable all transparent
plastic-like effects, for example those appearing when hovering over desktop icons.
It is possible in KDE 4.3.
- Functionality of file manager shold be restored. For
example, it was a surprise for me that there is no the very basic option "open each
folder in a new window" in Dolphin. This function exists in KDE3, Nautilus, Windows,
MacOS, OpenGEM, Seal, Ozone, CDE etc. In Konqueror this option appears but does not work
(as of KDE 4.2).
Please comment:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204948
- Look of file manager should be restored. Difficult
to describe but some of the things is too large distances between icons, annoying pictures
apopearing when hovering a mouse over icons,
Those are configurable.
selection with a bad-looking rectangle like in
MinuetOS,
Could you elaborate? What is bad-looking about the rubberband (that's
what the rectangle is called)? Does it affect your work?
bad looking tree view etc.
Please elaborate, I do not see anything wrong with this.
- Ability to place on the desktop icons for special
places such as Storage devices, Trash, Home, Network etc.
There exists the Device Notifier plasmoid, and the Trash can be shown
in the Folder View plasmoid.
I would like also port of KDE artwork such as Slick
icon theme, Light Qt style etc.
Please do! I am sure that many people would appreciate your effort. Thanks.
Now I do not use KDE because KDE3 from the
semi-official repo caused problems with other packages and is incomplete. I am now
considering to switch to another distro with better KDE3 support (such as SuSE of Alt
Linux).
I see.
From technical poit of view I'd like the window
manager to provide the option 'sync to vblank' in the same way as Compiz does.
Otherwise there is tearing on games and when moving windows. To day as I know only Compiz
can do it in proper way.
To tell you the truth, that is a bit out of my field of expertise so I
suggest that you file that feature request yourself. I am sorry I
cannot help with it, but you seem to have enough grip on the subject
to make a good request. Here is the link:
https://bugs.kde.org
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
8:11 a.m.
New subject: Re[8]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I think that this is what themes are for. If the Qt
style does not
provide special style for Plasma then how would you expect it to work?
Like kicker. It did not require special kiker theme. For example, Qt themes prted from
KDE3 (Phase for example) do not have style for plasma and hence the panel looks different
than other windows. Ideally the panel should not utilize plasma at all. But since it is
not the case, it should at least be able to make impression that it it not plasma, but a
normal window.
Could you elaborate? What is bad-looking about the
rubberband (that's
what the rectangle is called)? Does it affect your work?
No. It does affect my feel that KDE4 is something like home-made hobby DE like MinuetOS.
There exists the Device Notifier plasmoid, and the
Trash can be shown
in the Folder View plasmoid.
I do not use plasmoids other than folder view for the whole desktop. I want the
abovementioned places were just as other icons (and I could work with them just as with
others).
Please do! I am sure that many people would appreciate
your effort. Thanks.
It was you who came here and asked what to do. I have other things to do. And I heve other
DEs which are much better for me than KDE4.
8:37 a.m.
New subject: Re[8]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Like kicker. It did not require special kiker theme.
For example, Qt themes prted from KDE3 (Phase for example) do not have style for plasma
and hence the panel looks different than other windows. Ideally the panel should not
utilize plasma at all. But since it is not the case, it should at least be able to make
impression that it it not plasma, but a normal window.
Then you need to talk with those who are porting the themes. I'm
sorry, but there are KDE 4 themes that do as you expect and I really
don't see a problem. In any case, suggestig that the panel should not
utilize plasma is ridiculous, the panel _is_ plasma.
Could you
elaborate? What is bad-looking about the rubberband (that's
what the rectangle is called)? Does it affect your work?
No. It does affect my feel that KDE4 is something like home-made hobby DE like MinuetOS.
There exists
the Device Notifier plasmoid, and the Trash can be shown
in the Folder View plasmoid.
I do not use plasmoids other than folder view for the whole desktop. I want the
abovementioned places were just as other icons (and I could work with them just as with
others).
Please do! I
am sure that many people would appreciate your effort. Thanks.
It was you who came here and asked what to do. I have other things to do. And I heve
other DEs which are much better for me than KDE4.
9:13 a.m.
New subject: Re[10]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Then you need to talk with those who are porting the
themes.
KDE3 did not include Plasma, so simple porting would not help here.
In any case, suggestig that the panel should not
utilize plasma is ridiculous, the panel _is_ plasma.
That's sad.
What would not affect your feel that KDE4 is
something like home-made hobby DE like MinuetOS
Selection like in Windows, KDE3, Gnome etc.
I did not mean to insult you by suggesting that _you_
actually put some effort into KDE, which is a community effort.
Why should I re-do things which already had been done? Because some vandal came on and
broke them? And even if I do, eventually some other vandal will come and again remove the
features?
It it easy and painless for KDE4 devs to through out artwork made by other.
26 Aug
26 Aug
12:51 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
- Should be
possibility to disable all transparent plastic-like effects, for example those appearing
when hovering over desktop icons.
It is possible in KDE 4.3.
2:28 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I tested KDE 4.3, disabled all those visual effects in
system-settings, but could not get rid of the transparent hovering stuff
that appear, when you go over an desktop icon. Do you know how to do that?
I am probably just not understanding simple things today, Stefan. How
you send to me a screenshot of the offending transparent hovering
stuff? Thanks.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
2:29 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I am probably just not understanding simple things
today, Stefan. How
you send to me a screenshot of the offending transparent hovering
stuff? Thanks.
Nor can I type! I need sleep! That should have been:
I am probably just not understanding simple things today, Stefan. Can
you send to me a screenshot of the offending transparent hovering
stuff? Thanks.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
27 Aug
27 Aug
8:17 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Dotan Cohen schrieb:
I am probably just not understanding simple things
today, Stefan. Can
you send to me a screenshot of the offending transparent hovering
stuff? Thanks.
Of course! Here is a screenshot:
http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/desktop-icon-hovering.png
I meant the transparent hovering which appears when you go with your mouse
over a desktop icon/plasmoid.
I'm sorry. I did not know that you can really deactivate this behavior.
Just right click on the desktop -> lock widgets. That's exactly what I
wanted to have, because the hovering has also a functionality that I don't
want to deactivate completely but only in the normal mode. OK. Good that
we talked about that. :)
Even the ugly configuration symbol in the panel disappeared. :) Very good.
Only the configuration icon in the top right of the desktop remained.
That could be improved. I mean who needs it at all when you can do the
same with context menu of the desktop?
Regards,
Stefan
8:29 a.m.
New subject: Re[2]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Ine thing is that the style of this plastic selection does not depend on Qt4 or Plasma
theme. It makes significant inconsistency.
11:49 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
2009/8/27 Stefan Endrullis <stefan(a)endrullis.de>de>:
Dotan Cohen schrieb:
Right-click the deskto and select "Lock Widgets".
I am probably just not understanding simple
things today, Stefan. Can
you send to me a screenshot of the offending transparent hovering
stuff? Thanks.
Of course! Here is a screenshot:
http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/desktop-icon-hovering.png
I meant the transparent hovering which appears when you go with your mouse
over a desktop icon/plasmoid. I'm sorry. I did not know that you can really
deactivate this behavior.
Just right click on the desktop -> lock widgets. That's exactly what I
wanted to have, because the hovering has also a functionality that I don't
want to deactivate completely but only in the normal mode. OK. Good that
we talked about that. :)
Err... you found it!
Even the ugly configuration symbol in the panel
disappeared. :) Very good.
Only the configuration icon in the top right of the desktop remained.
That could be improved. I mean who needs it at all when you can do the
same with context menu of the desktop?
That is probably _the_original_ problematic KDE 4 bug. Please, please
comment here and vote to support that very iconic feature request:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=154535
Yes, I know that it is closed WONTFIX but if enough people make enough
noise, there is hope.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
23 Aug
23 Aug
1:57 p.m.
New subject: Re[2]: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
My goal is to help people who are stuck using
abandoned software.
People arent stuck with abandoned software or any software whatsoever. I am not stuck with
KDE3, once I feel Gnome is better I'll move to Gnome. It is highly unprobable though
I'll ever decide to use KDE4 (switching to Windows or even MacOS X is more likely).
5:26 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I woul like to see a very fast, simple, lightweight editor, a la kedit, in
kde4. Usuallly kate is way more than I need.
BTW, I tried out one of the early versions of kde4 and found it to be buggy,
incomplete
and unusable, so I was pleasantly surprised when I upgraded to kde4.3; after
using it (me, my wife and two kids) for a couple of weeks, we have wiped
kde3.5.10 off the machine.
Thank you for your work on kde4.
Jim
On 8/23/09, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The day when KDE 3 will no longer be viable is getting closer every
day. Please tell me what problems you are having with KDE 4 so that we
can get them fixed. KDE 3 is great because it is mature, configurable,
and feature-laden without being bloated. I do not want to see that go
to waste! It is the KDE 3 holdouts who have the attention to detail to
distinguish the "little things" that make KDE 3 so great that are
currently lacking in KDE 4.
Note that KDE 4.3 really solves most of the issues for me and most
other people that I deal with. In fact, the features is adds over KDE
3 were enough to get me to switch. So please try KDE 4.3 and
_let_me_know_ what does not work for you so that we can file bugs. I
want to know about missing features, unintuitiveness, bugs,
regressions, anything. You _will_ need to relearn some minor things as
KDE 4 is a rewrite of KDE, not a Qt4 port of KDE 3, however let's get
the major issues fixed.
Thanks. KDE really needs the picky, stubborn KDE 3 users to push the
devs (who might not have the same attention to detail as us) in the
right direction. I'm here to bridge the gap between us (the users) and
the devs.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
--
jimpofic(a)gmail.com
+1 (319) 644-3018 office
+1 (319) 631-2992 cell
=>=>=> http://www.famsco.org
<=<=<=<
8:33 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I woul like to see a very fast, simple, lightweight
editor, a la kedit, in
kde4. Usuallly kate is way more than I need.
Have you tried Kwrite?
BTW, I tried out one of the early versions of kde4 and
found it to be buggy,
incomplete
and unusable, so I was pleasantly surprised when I upgraded to kde4.3; after
using it (me, my wife and two kids) for a couple of weeks, we have wiped
kde3.5.10 off the machine.
Thank you for your work on kde4.
It's not my work, it is the work of Aaron and hundreds of other
coders. I just try to bridge the gap between coders and users. If you
google Aaron Seigo, though, I'm sure that he will appreciate the
thanks.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
24 Aug
24 Aug
11:22 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I really miss the window list button on the taskbar/kicker panel.
Fancy Tasks is not a perfect substitute by far...
Thanks,
-Jerry
On Sun, 2009-08-23 at 12:00 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
The day when KDE 3 will no longer be viable is getting
closer every
day. Please tell me what problems you are having with KDE 4 so that we
can get them fixed. KDE 3 is great because it is mature, configurable,
and feature-laden without being bloated. I do not want to see that go
to waste! It is the KDE 3 holdouts who have the attention to detail to
distinguish the "little things" that make KDE 3 so great that are
currently lacking in KDE 4.
Note that KDE 4.3 really solves most of the issues for me and most
other people that I deal with. In fact, the features is adds over KDE
3 were enough to get me to switch. So please try KDE 4.3 and
_let_me_know_ what does not work for you so that we can file bugs. I
want to know about missing features, unintuitiveness, bugs,
regressions, anything. You _will_ need to relearn some minor things as
KDE 4 is a rewrite of KDE, not a Qt4 port of KDE 3, however let's get
the major issues fixed.
Thanks. KDE really needs the picky, stubborn KDE 3 users to push the
devs (who might not have the same attention to detail as us) in the
right direction. I'm here to bridge the gap between us (the users) and
the devs.
1:13 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
I really miss the window list button on the
taskbar/kicker panel.
Fancy Tasks is not a perfect substitute by far...
What is wrong with it? Since it is much more feasible to fix Fancy
Tasks than to make a new plasmoid (unless you want to make it) then
please be specific and we will file bugs.
Thanks.
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
9:41 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Well, I must have had a "senior moment"... I rebooted my test system
into Kubuntu 9.04, and updated to 4.3. Some time recently, I seem to
have found a window list plasmoid. My only complaint about it, is that
its taskbar/applet icon is huge... :-D
With Fancy Tasks, I set a hotkey, and that's OK, if I have both hands on
the keyboard, but I do miss being able to click on my desktop, and get a
window list also...
Having the little arrow button by the pager, to pop up a window list,
sorted by desktop, is a no-brainer, as far as I'm concerned...
Thanks and regards,
-Jerry
On Mon, 2009-08-24 at 16:13 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
I really miss
the window list button on the taskbar/kicker panel.
Fancy Tasks is not a perfect substitute by far...
What is wrong with it? Since it is much more feasible to fix Fancy
Tasks than to make a new plasmoid (unless you want to make it) then
please be specific and we will file bugs.
Thanks.
26 Aug
26 Aug
2:27 p.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
2009/8/25 Jerry Gluck <jgluck(a)nyc.rr.com>om>:
Well, I must have had a "senior moment"... I
rebooted my test system
into Kubuntu 9.04, and updated to 4.3. Some time recently, I seem to
have found a window list plasmoid. My only complaint about it, is that
its taskbar/applet icon is huge... :-D
Please, please comment on these two bugs, regarding the widget sizes:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=196307
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182193
With Fancy Tasks, I set a hotkey, and that's OK,
if I have both hands on
the keyboard, but I do miss being able to click on my desktop, and get a
window list also...
You don't even need to right-click. Add the Task Manager widget to the desktop.
Having the little arrow button by the pager, to pop up
a window list,
sorted by desktop, is a no-brainer, as far as I'm concerned...
I do not understand. There exists a little arrow button by the pager,
or you would like one?
--
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
29 Aug
29 Aug
12:20 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
On Wed, 2009-08-26 at 17:27 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
I'm not seeing a little arrow. Can you send a screen
capture, please?
Thanks and regards,
-Jerry
Please, please comment on these two bugs, regarding the widget sizes:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=196307
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182193
I commented on one, and voted on the other. Somethings take so long to
get fixed...
With Fancy Tasks, I set a hotkey, and that's
OK, if I have both hands on
the keyboard, but I do miss being able to click on my desktop, and get a
window list also...
You don't even need to right-click. Add the Task Manager widget to the desktop.
Having the little arrow button by the pager, to
pop up a window list,
sorted by desktop, is a no-brainer, as far as I'm concerned...
I do not understand. There exists a little arrow button by the pager,
or you would like one?
31 Aug
31 Aug
11:04 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Having the little arrow button by the pager, to pop up
a window list,
sorted by desktop, is a no-brainer, as far as I'm concerned...
I do not understand. There exists a little arrow button by the pager,
or you would like one?
7 Sep
7 Sep
1:36 a.m.
New subject: [kubuntu-kde3.5-users] What's missing in KDE 4: let's file some bugs
Dotan,
I'm talking about the window list button on the taskbar. You click on
the arrow, and you get a list of running applications, sorted by
desktop.
See the attached screenshot excerpt, with I found from a KDE version
before 3.5.
Regards,
-Jerry
On Mon, 2009-08-31 at 14:04 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
I'm not seeing a little arrow. Can you send a screen
capture, please?
Alright, Jerry, I lost you in this thread! I do not even remember what
we were talking about, but you mentioned that a little arrow is a "no
brainer" and I did not know if that means that there exists and arrow
or that you would like one.
Just to clear things up: remind me exactly what the issue was, and the
solution as you see fit. Please excuse my getting lost in the thread.
Having the
little arrow button by the pager, to pop up a window list,
sorted by desktop, is a no-brainer, as far as I'm concerned...
I do not understand. There exists a little arrow button by the pager,
or you would like one? 
5584
days inactive
5599
days old
70 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Dotan Cohen -
Jerry Gluck -
Jim Peterson -
kb9vqf＠pearsoncomputing.net -
Keith Z-G -
Kevin Colyer -
maybeway36 -
Nielsen -
Stefan Endrullis -
Илья Черных