Can you be more specific? If you tell me specific problems that you

have with KDE 4 then I can help solve them.

No problem. I simply do not plan to use it. Like E17 for example.

no developers working on KDE 3 it will soon

suffer the same bitrot that all abandoned software suffers (think BeOS, Amiga).

People still work on OpenGEM, TWM and MWM even though their roots in early 1980s. KDE3.5.10 was released less a year ago. Anyway, what KDE4 has to do with the topic of this list? If KDE3.5 would no longer available, I'll use Gnome or Xfce, or Lxde or Windows. KDE4 is the last option in my list.

While I don't agree with the tone of some of the replies you received (I do appreciate what you are doing here) I need to respond to this particular point.

Excellent, your opinion of the situation is by far the most informed opinion that I expect to hear here!

I *am* developing KDE3.  If you look in the PPA that I maintain, you will see a whole slew of my patches that add new features, fix old bugs, and generally keep the code compilable and functional as the backend libraries change over time.

While I was aware that you were cleaning up the bitrot to maintain compatibility with certain libraries as time moves on, I did not realize that you are performing actual bugfixes and adding new features. However, that is great for KDE users of [k]Ubuntu, not KDE in general. I would argue that you are maintaining Kubuntu. Have you considered contacting a KDE representative and releasing KDE 3.5.11 or even KDE 3.6? Would you like me to see exactly how that would be done?

My intention is not to belittle the effort that you are investing for the community. Quite the opposite, believe me, I respect your effort, your time, and your dedication more than most. And those who don't, will, should the day come when you can no longer maintain the project. (tfu tfu tfu).

Now, from all appearances, *if* I were to stop development then yes, KDE would bitrot and become unusable--purely because no one else has stepped forward to assist.

So it only takes one bus accident?

I use KDE3.5 for a different purpose than some.  My desktop is configured to look, feel, and act like an enhanced version of Windows XP in "Classic" mode.  Like it or not, and I know many would argue with me, Microsoft had one of the best desktop interfaces available with that release.  If they hadn't abandoned it, I would still be an avid Microsoft user.

They hadn't. Isn't it an option in Windows today? I have never used Vista or 7, but my Windows XP VM uses the lightweight, readable Classic interface.

Likewise, I know I will be argued with up and down on this, but KDE4 seems, from a look-n-feel perspective only, to be a hybrid of Windows Vista and the latest Mac OS.  I hate those two operating systems.  In almost every design choice.  Period.

I have not used the two OSes that you compare KDE 4 to, but I very much enjoy KDE 4.3. We are branching into three fronts, so I will separate them:

1) What it looks like: I agree that KDE 4 looks like Mac and Vista. That does not bother me as I have no grudge against those systems.

2) How it is operated: I do not know how Vista / OS-X are operated, but I find KDE 4.3 to be less intuitive than KDE 3.5. This is a point in which the KDE 3 holdouts can help! The KDE devs, and even myself, are so used to KDE 4. after working with it for so long that we don't see what is not intuitive anymore. Let me know what you find unintuitive (like the panel configuration) and I will file bugs on it. This is very important, and only the KDE 3 holdouts can help here.

3) What it can do: I can do everything in KDE 4.3 that I could in KDE 3. I may do some of them differently, but all can get done. However, for _you_ it might be different, and I need to know what is missing for _you_ in KDE 4.

I am not alone here.  Many engineers I have talked with do not like the new interface.  There are some of us who use a GUI simply because more information can be placed on it, and many tasks made faster, than the command line.  Gnome and KDE4 don't have very much *useful* and *relevant* information on the screen at any given time.  These people have also mentioned that the interface has a clunky feel, that they are having difficulty just getting basic tasks done in a streamlined, efficient fashion.  Simply, more clicks required in the UI per task == more time wasted.

I would love to hear the details. If you prefer off-list, I'm here. If you write off list then please write to the address kb9vqf at dotancohen d o t c o m. Thanks.

The clunkiness has a direct impact on this.  The DE should recede into the background, not constantly push its way into the foreground.  When it shoves its way into the users programs, in the form of excessively large menu bars, taskbars, and buttons, valuable screen space is stolen from the user's application, forcing more scrolling, window management operations, and application menu use inside the user's program.

I do not feel that what you describe is the case with KDE 4.3. I do not like the toolbar buttons' default to having the text shown as well as the icon, but other than that I do not find the interface to be excessively large.

This is a common flaw with the new direction all desktops seem to be heading in.  They are all pretty (well, actually, the Mac OS is pretty, while Vista and KDE4 are really ugly), and seem to work well--until you try to use them in your job, when you have 4 clients and 2 managers demanding you get X, Y, and Z done *NOW*.  Then you find that in order to multitask in any sensible form you will need to learn to click constantly, everywhere, and end up purchasing a really big replacement monitor.  Yet, somehow, your old monitor was perfectly adequate under Windows XP and KDE3.5.  Your programs haven't changed.  So why again is your DE forcing you to buy new hardware and slowing you down?

I am not doubting you, but I do not perceive this problem with KDE 4. Can you maybe send to me a screenshot of the same interface elements in both KDE 3 and 4 for comparison (the defaults). I will take it up on the usability list. Your assumptions and statements are correct in the general sense, but I fail to see where that they apply to KDE 4.

I have even caused some older folks, who have used Windows since it came out, to switch to Linux.  How?  By showing them a truly better desktop interface: Windows XP classic + some sorely needed features--in other words, KDE3.5.  They all hated where Windows was going, and Mac was too limiting.

I have seen this too, with MS Office users flocking to OOo.

So, rant aside, try adding a "super-tiny-taskbar, icons, buttons, and menus" option.

I will file a bug on that, and I will mention it on the usability list.

Also make an "angular buttons option" so that they can be compacted on the screen the way they always were.  (Actually IIRC that last one finally does exist in KDE3).

Please be very specific, I will file a feature request.

Also, make it so that the shiny stuff can be turned off.  Menu drop shadows are OK, but shiny rounded menus are distracting.

That is configurable in KDE 4.3.

Bring back the old KDE control center.

The KDE 4.3 System Settings has the familiar tree menu. In that configuration, it resembles Kcontrol very well. If there are other elements of Kcontrol that you miss, please tell me what they are.

Bring back task tray icons as plasmoid replacements.  I DON'T LIKE having to minimize my windows (an extra click) to get at something critical like the network manager plasmoid and then have to un-minimize them all again when I am done (another extra click).

The network manager plasmoid could have been on your panel. In any case, it is now in the system tray. But I understand your point in general, however each fix needs an individual bug report. So lay 'em on! Which functionality that you have on the panel in KDE 3 cannot be had on the panel in KDE 4.3?

To say nothing of having to check connectivity in another program and then go back to the plasmoid....click click click click click....grrrr...Windows was so much better...  This is a massive waste of the user's time and is, bluntly, a really, really stupid design decision.  You NEVER want to make the users think what I just wrote.

It is not like that anymore, at least, not for the network manager.

I like putting icons on my desktop.  Only icons.  Can we turn off that stupid cashew yet?

No. Sorry. Write to Aaron personally on that one!

The UI fonts are way too large.

So change them! I think that they're great, and of the 5-10 KDE 4.[2|3] installs that I have performed for people, the only ones who mentioned the fonts were those who liked them.

Why can't I *easily* and *intuitively* reconfigure something as basic as my desktop???

Because you haven't complained to _me_ yet! Seriously, be specific about what is unintuitive and I will file the bugs. I agreet hat KDE 4 is not yet intuitive enough but the devs are used to it: they need _you_ to tell them what is not intuitive.

You get the point.  Many of these items are design decisions that the developers made to "set KDE4 apart".  I don't think they will be fixed anytime soon.  Feel free to surprise me though! :-)

I have been pleasantly surprised by KDE 4.2 and 4.3, the devs are really starting to take into consideration what the users want. Just let me know what that is.

Thanks, Timothy, I look forward to hearing the specifics.

Hi Dotan,

I'm pretty busy at the moment, but I will definitely try to provide specific examples of what I am talking about. I have to load up KDE4.3 and KDE3.5 in a VM, and then I will take screenshots side-by-side of the equivalent programs, with the items that are unintuitive or difficult to use in KDE4.3 highlighted. Will this help?

Hmm...a KDE3.5.11 release isn't a bad idea at all. I'd still like to make a few more changes to the UI before another release, but it's a worthy goal. Trouble is, I have no idea how to get my changes into the KDE SVN and actually make a release! Any help here would be greatly appreciated.

One other thing. Microsoft removed the classic option in Vista--I used it for one day before deciding it was easier (and better) to go to Linux than to put up with that garbage. I have also used a very recent Mac desktop in a store (they had one on display that you could use), and I actually counted the mouse clicks needed to do a simple task like creating, renaming, and deleting a folder on the desktop. I counted over three times the number of clicks for each operation vs. KDE3.5 or Windows XP. I left wondering why people use Macs at all!

I didn't know you could put the network manager on the panel. I still like a tray icon with context menus much better; I'm glad they put one back in.

Look for the comparison screenshots on this list in the coming weeks.

Thanks for trying to make KDE4 better for all of us!

Timothy Pearson KDE3.5 Maintainer

...

While I don't agree with the tone of some of the replies you received (I do appreciate what you are doing here) I need to respond to this particular point.

Excellent, your opinion of the situation is by far the most informed opinion that I expect to hear here!

...

I *am* developing KDE3.  If you look in the PPA that I maintain, you will see a whole slew of my patches that add new features, fix old bugs, and generally keep the code compilable and functional as the backend libraries change over time.

While I was aware that you were cleaning up the bitrot to maintain compatibility with certain libraries as time moves on, I did not realize that you are performing actual bugfixes and adding new features. However, that is great for KDE users of [k]Ubuntu, not KDE in general. I would argue that you are maintaining Kubuntu. Have you considered contacting a KDE representative and releasing KDE 3.5.11 or even KDE 3.6? Would you like me to see exactly how that would be done?

My intention is not to belittle the effort that you are investing for the community. Quite the opposite, believe me, I respect your effort, your time, and your dedication more than most. And those who don't, will, should the day come when you can no longer maintain the project. (tfu tfu tfu).

...

Now, from all appearances, *if* I were to stop development then yes, KDE would bitrot and become unusable--purely because no one else has stepped forward to assist.

So it only takes one bus accident?

...

I use KDE3.5 for a different purpose than some.  My desktop is configured to look, feel, and act like an enhanced version of Windows XP in "Classic" mode.  Like it or not, and I know many would argue with me, Microsoft had one of the best desktop interfaces available with that release.  If they hadn't abandoned it, I would still be an avid Microsoft user.

They hadn't. Isn't it an option in Windows today? I have never used Vista or 7, but my Windows XP VM uses the lightweight, readable Classic interface.

...

Likewise, I know I will be argued with up and down on this, but KDE4 seems, from a look-n-feel perspective only, to be a hybrid of Windows Vista and the latest Mac OS.  I hate those two operating systems.  In almost every design choice.  Period.

I have not used the two OSes that you compare KDE 4 to, but I very much enjoy KDE 4.3. We are branching into three fronts, so I will separate them:

1. What it looks like:

I agree that KDE 4 looks like Mac and Vista. That does not bother me as I have no grudge against those systems.

2. How it is operated:

I do not know how Vista / OS-X are operated, but I find KDE 4.3 to be less intuitive than KDE 3.5. This is a point in which the KDE 3 holdouts can help! The KDE devs, and even myself, are so used to KDE 4. after working with it for so long that we don't see what is not intuitive anymore. Let me know what you find unintuitive (like the panel configuration) and I will file bugs on it. This is very important, and only the KDE 3 holdouts can help here.

3. What it can do:

I can do everything in KDE 4.3 that I could in KDE 3. I may do some of them differently, but all can get done. However, for _you_ it might be different, and I need to know what is missing for _you_ in KDE 4.

...

I am not alone here.  Many engineers I have talked with do not like the new interface.  There are some of us who use a GUI simply because more information can be placed on it, and many tasks made faster, than the command line.  Gnome and KDE4 don't have very much *useful* and *relevant* information on the screen at any given time.  These people have also mentioned that the interface has a clunky feel, that they are having difficulty just getting basic tasks done in a streamlined, efficient fashion.  Simply, more clicks required in the UI per task == more time wasted.

I would love to hear the details. If you prefer off-list, I'm here. If you write off list then please write to the address kb9vqf at dotancohen d o t c o m. Thanks.

...

The clunkiness has a direct impact on this.  The DE should recede into the background, not constantly push its way into the foreground.  When it shoves its way into the users programs, in the form of excessively large menu bars, taskbars, and buttons, valuable screen space is stolen from the user's application, forcing more scrolling, window management operations, and application menu use inside the user's program.

I do not feel that what you describe is the case with KDE 4.3. I do not like the toolbar buttons' default to having the text shown as well as the icon, but other than that I do not find the interface to be excessively large.

...

This is a common flaw with the new direction all desktops seem to be heading in.  They are all pretty (well, actually, the Mac OS is pretty, while Vista and KDE4 are really ugly), and seem to work well--until you try to use them in your job, when you have 4 clients and 2 managers demanding you get X, Y, and Z done *NOW*.  Then you find that in order to multitask in any sensible form you will need to learn to click constantly, everywhere, and end up purchasing a really big replacement monitor.  Yet, somehow, your old monitor was perfectly adequate under Windows XP and KDE3.5.  Your programs haven't changed.  So why again is your DE forcing you to buy new hardware and slowing you down?

I am not doubting you, but I do not perceive this problem with KDE 4. Can you maybe send to me a screenshot of the same interface elements in both KDE 3 and 4 for comparison (the defaults). I will take it up on the usability list. Your assumptions and statements are correct in the general sense, but I fail to see where that they apply to KDE 4.

...

I have even caused some older folks, who have used Windows since it came out, to switch to Linux.  How?  By showing them a truly better desktop interface: Windows XP classic + some sorely needed features--in other words, KDE3.5.  They all hated where Windows was going, and Mac was too limiting.

I have seen this too, with MS Office users flocking to OOo.

...

So, rant aside, try adding a "super-tiny-taskbar, icons, buttons, and menus" option.

I will file a bug on that, and I will mention it on the usability list.

...

 Also make an "angular buttons option" so that they can be compacted on the screen the way they always were.  (Actually IIRC that last one finally does exist in KDE3).

Please be very specific, I will file a feature request.

...

Also, make it so that the shiny stuff can be turned off.  Menu drop shadows are OK, but shiny rounded menus are distracting.

That is configurable in KDE 4.3.

...

Bring back the old KDE control center.

The KDE 4.3 System Settings has the familiar tree menu. In that configuration, it resembles Kcontrol very well. If there are other elements of Kcontrol that you miss, please tell me what they are.

...

Bring back task tray icons as plasmoid replacements.  I DON'T LIKE having to minimize my windows (an extra click) to get at something critical like the network manager plasmoid and then have to un-minimize them all again when I am done (another extra click).

The network manager plasmoid could have been on your panel. In any case, it is now in the system tray. But I understand your point in general, however each fix needs an individual bug report. So lay 'em on! Which functionality that you have on the panel in KDE 3 cannot be had on the panel in KDE 4.3?

...

 To say nothing of having to check connectivity in another program and then go back to the plasmoid....click click click click click....grrrr...Windows was so much better...  This is a massive waste of the user's time and is, bluntly, a really, really stupid design decision.  You NEVER want to make the users think what I just wrote.

It is not like that anymore, at least, not for the network manager.

...

I like putting icons on my desktop.  Only icons.  Can we turn off that stupid cashew yet?

No. Sorry. Write to Aaron personally on that one!

...

The UI fonts are way too large.

So change them! I think that they're great, and of the 5-10 KDE 4.[2|3] installs that I have performed for people, the only ones who mentioned the fonts were those who liked them.

...

Why can't I *easily* and *intuitively* reconfigure something as basic as my desktop???

Because you haven't complained to _me_ yet! Seriously, be specific about what is unintuitive and I will file the bugs. I agreet hat KDE 4 is not yet intuitive enough but the devs are used to it: they need _you_ to tell them what is not intuitive.

...

You get the point.  Many of these items are design decisions that the developers made to "set KDE4 apart".  I don't think they will be fixed anytime soon.  Feel free to surprise me though! :-)

I have been pleasantly surprised by KDE 4.2 and 4.3, the devs are really starting to take into consideration what the users want. Just let me know what that is.

Thanks, Timothy, I look forward to hearing the specifics.

-- Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il

I'm pretty busy at the moment, but I will definitely try to provide specific examples of what I am talking about.  I have to load up KDE4.3 and KDE3.5 in a VM, and then I will take screenshots side-by-side of the equivalent programs, with the items that are unintuitive or difficult to use in KDE4.3 highlighted.  Will this help?

Yes, very much, thanks! Can I repost the images to bugzilla other KDE-related pages?

Hmm...a KDE3.5.11 release isn't a bad idea at all.  I'd still like to make a few more changes to the UI before another release, but it's a worthy goal.  Trouble is, I have no idea how to get my changes into the KDE SVN and actually make a release!  Any help here would be greatly appreciated.

I'll get on it. Of course, it would have to be tested on distros other than *buntu, but that can be by users of those distros.

One other thing.  Microsoft removed the classic option in Vista--I used it for one day before deciding it was easier (and better) to go to Linux than to put up with that garbage.  I have also used a very recent Mac desktop in a store (they had one on display that you could use), and I actually counted the mouse clicks needed to do a simple task like creating, renaming, and deleting a folder on the desktop.  I counted over three times the number of clicks for each operation vs. KDE3.5 or Windows XP.  I left wondering why people use Macs at all!

Because people like to click! Seriously, it makes them feel productive and smart. There was a discussion on slashdot about this maybe a year or two ago. Webpages: less click are better. Applications' UI: more clicks are better. Especially for work-related applications.

Thanks for trying to make KDE4 better for all of us!

Thank _you_ for patching and packaging!

The big problem for me is SPEED. I think we here know very subjectively the KDE3.5 flies and KDE4 seems to crawl. There was a very interesting discussion by Zack Rusin on QT drawing performance: http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2009/08/2d-in-kde.html

Solving this problem in a network aware and hardware accelerated way on all cards, will make a massive difference to KDE4 perception.

Did you read the followup post to that? It looks like the difference is not as big as it seems, and it has many drawbacks.

http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2009/08/more-2d-in-kde.html

For me Plasmoids are not vastly useful. I prefer apps in windows to apps on desktops.

I agree!

To be honest I think if Kicker was ported to KDE4 then a lot of people might be won over. Or a Plasma-lite option.

This was discussed, but nobody came forward to do it. Therefore the community has resorted to filing feature requests on Plasma for kicker-like functions.

To be honest I think if Kicker was ported to KDE4 then a lot of people might be won over.

You may be surprised, but Kicker has been ported to Qt4 and was included in KDE4 Alpha 1. It was thrown away later by people who wanted their Plasma to be included in KDE4.

Have you considered contacting a KDE representative and releasing KDE 3.5.11 or even KDE 3.6? Would you like me to see exactly how that would be done?

I think this would be difficult as KDE3.5 has been intentionally frozen. There is not a lack of developers, but the source repo is deliberately closed.

Usability:

• In KDE3 you could change the time format of the clock applet by right

clicking on it and selecting "date & time format", that means with 2 clicks only.  In KDE4 this menu item has been removed. IMO that's counterintuitive. Many people  would expect this functionality there, I think. Currently the only way to change  the date & time format is to start system-settings and go to  "Personal"->"Region & Language"->"Country/Region & Language". I doubt that all  KDE4 users will find this settings dialog immediately.

Comment and vote here: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162368

Waste of Space:

• For today let's just compare the kicker and the Plasma panel. Here are some

screenshots:  - http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/waste_of_space/kde3_kicker.png  - http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/waste_of_space/kde4_kicker.png  To be fair I gave both panels nearly the same size (it's hard to set an exact  panel size in KDE4 because the numeric input for the size has been removed in  KDE4, but that doesn't matter for me).  When I compare both pictures I see that...    - the KDE4 pager has much smaller previews (~65% of the size of the KDE3      pager)    - the KDE4 task manager is less readable than the KDE3 version, because of      the smaller font    - the KDE4 system tray consists only of one row which leads to an increased      horizontal width    - the KDE4 icons for the battery and network connection are 4 times larger      than in KDE3. But this is already a known issue that has been reported      here:      - https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182193      - https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167132

Please, please make a comment on this bug: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204917

Your input and research is very much needed there. Thanks!

And regarding vertical panels you have to multiply this issue by 3, as      you can see in the nice screenshots in the second bug report)      And sorry, but whenever I see this over dimensioned KDE4 battery plasmoid      I have to laugh. It's so big but it's only able to show _5 different states_!      That leads actually to this problem that you cannot distinguish between 38%      and 62%, because both states are represented by 2 bars. Well, I would be      interested in this difference, especially when the battery runs low.      I will never understand why some developers love to hide useful information.

But to see the differences to KDE3, let's compare the KDE4 battery plasmoid      with KLaptop. KLaptop uses only 1/4 of the icon size, but is able to represent      _81 different battery states_ (in 5x16 pixels)! The trick is to use not only      a vertical progress bar but another the horizontal progress bar in each pixel      row. When I saw this for the first time (some years ago) I was fascinated by      this brilliant idea and thought: Yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm using      KDE!

You have already posted a link to bug #167132 but for those who are following along, that is the bug for reporting the too-large widgets.

system-settings: I'm happy about the tree view in system-settings, but I'm still missing several intuitive features from kcontrol:

• tree navigation via keyboard:

- image you have selected a node in the tree and now you    * press ENTER: the content of the node should be loaded    * press LEFT: the parent node should be selected when the current node      is not expanded

Can you check that against other tree views in KDE and either confirm that this is inconsistent with the rest of KDE, or that all of KDE needs to be improved here. Thanks!

• incremental search:

- was a bit better in kcontrol. For instance, enter "date" in the search    field. In kcontrol you immediately see the results and you need only one    mouse click to get there. In system-settings the incremental search leads    only to new node colors (grey for unimportant nodes, black for matches).    You still have to expand the interesting nodes by hand. I suggest to do    that automatically when changing the search value. In the end, this    colored tree (if expanded) is even better that the plain list in kcontrol    because you can easy categorize the hits.

How's this: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205342

• moving the slider between the tree and the current settings does not work.

But in some cases it would be necessary.

I do not understand, could you be more specific? Thanks.

The issues regarding the plasma panel might and the KDE4 performance (not mentioned here) might currently be the most important issues.

But also apparently minor issues like the navigation in trees are important for. Fast keyword work was always one of the key features of KDE3, I think. Sadly in KDE4 the possibility of keyboard navigation was completely ignored. Just try to save a screenhot in ksnapshot by using only the keyboard. You can navigate to a directory and press ENTER. Instead of changing into this directory, ksnapshot thinks you want to enter the dir AND save the file afterwards. Strange implementation! I would never expect both actions at the same time.

Please write a "this is what I did, this is what I expected, this is what happened" format, I'll verify and file it. but make sure that you are on KDE 4.3 first, as it is a bit different than KDE 4.2. Thanks!

But this issue concerns not only ksnapshot, but it's a general problem of the same dialog and therefore concerns all KDE4 apps.

BTW, I would be also very interested in a super-tiny style for KDE4.

Then comment on bug #204917, the more people who support it the better.

Thank you very much for your analysis! It is exactly the little details like these that pile up and make KDE 3 so great, and at the same time pile down and make KDE 4 frustrating to use.

Here's my list:

- No "MacOS like" panel In KDE3 had the possibility to use the context menu of applications on a special panel - Sideband on the menu when in classic style There is no longer the option to display the sideband on the left side menu - There is no way to use an large button for main menu (as kbfx) You can change the button icon from the main menu, but if image is large, it is resized to a square

Note: Translation from portuguese helped by Google

Resuming, commenting and expanding my list:

Dotan Cohen escreveu:

...

Here's my list:

Thanks!

...

• No "MacOS like" panel

In KDE3 had the possibility to use the context menu of applications on a special panel

Please assume that I am unfamiliar with MacOS and describe what you would like.

http://frinring.wordpress.com/2009/01/29/mac-style-menubar-for-kde-4-and-oth...

...

• Sideband on the menu when in classic style

There is no longer the option to display the sideband on the left side menu

Can you please let me know what function that sideband provides? What can you do with the sideband that you cannot do in the current Classic style menu?

Aesthetic function. Customizability, better readability. There is already a bug about it (votes are wellcome :) ) https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164519

...

• There is no way to use an large button for main menu (as kbfx)

You can change the button icon from the main menu, but if image is large, it is resized to a square

Please comment and vote: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205387

Thanks!

...

Note: Translation from portuguese helped by Google

No problem, my native language is not English either! You can have Google translate it into Hebrew!

Other two bugs:

- When selecting multiple imagens and select Open with Gwenview, multiple instaces of the program are opened - Fail trying to set a custom pannel background (System Settings > Advanced > Desktop Theme Details )

...

Comment and vote here: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162368

Thanks for finding this bug report. My issues have been already mentioned in comment #3 and James Richard Tyrer is working on it. So I'm curious about the new version of the clock plasmoid.

Even if someone already mentioned it, comment and mention your support. Thanks.

...

Your input and research is very much needed there. Thanks!

...

And regarding vertical panels you have to multiply this issue by 3, as      you can see in the nice screenshots in the second bug report)      And sorry, but whenever I see this over dimensioned KDE4 battery plasmoid      I have to laugh. It's so big but it's only able to show _5 different states_!      That leads actually to this problem that you cannot distinguish between 38%      and 62%, because both states are represented by 2 bars. Well, I would be      interested in this difference, especially when the battery runs low.      I will never understand why some developers love to hide useful information.

But to see the differences to KDE3, let's compare the KDE4 battery plasmoid      with KLaptop. KLaptop uses only 1/4 of the icon size, but is able to represent      _81 different battery states_ (in 5x16 pixels)! The trick is to use not only      a vertical progress bar but another the horizontal progress bar in each pixel      row. When I saw this for the first time (some years ago) I was fascinated by      this brilliant idea and thought: Yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm using      KDE!

I've filed a bug addressing the super-size battery plasmoid without useful information: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205707

You're welcome to post comments or vote for it.

While I agree with your assessment of the situation, you are lucky that the bug was a dupe. Your sarcasm would have been the end of the bug, fixed or not. Please, continue filing bugs but don't use sarcasm. You might want to see this bug regarding the size of the plasmoid as well: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167132

...

Can you check that against other tree views in KDE and either confirm that this is inconsistent with the rest of KDE, or that all of KDE needs to be improved here. Thanks!

Hm, I couldn't find another KDE application with a tree so fast. Sorry.

Kmail and Dolphin have tree views.

...

...

• moving the slider between the tree and the current settings does not work.

But in some cases it would be necessary.

I do not understand, could you be more specific? Thanks.

Ah, sorry. I meant the splitter between the tree and the current settings, marked in this screenshot with "Drag here": http://stefan.endrullis.de/kde/system-settings-drag.png

That is an interesting issue. I have no problem dragging the splitter to widen the treeview. Can you check if the splitter in other apps does not work for you (kmail, dolphin)?

As long as it is not needed I don't want to have a horizontal scrollbar in the tree. That's why I would try to use the splitter to resize the tree.

I agree, I would even prefer to see lines wrap than a horizontal scrollbar appearing! I filed this: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205780

If you want to attach your second screenshot there, it would be great.

...

...

But also apparently minor issues like the navigation in trees are important for. Fast keyword work was always one of the key features of KDE3, I think. Sadly in KDE4 the possibility of keyboard navigation was completely ignored. Just try to save a screenhot in ksnapshot by using only the keyboard. You can navigate to a directory and press ENTER. Instead of changing into this directory, ksnapshot thinks you want to enter the dir AND save the file afterwards. Strange implementation! I would never expect both actions at the same time.

Please write a "this is what I did, this is what I expected, this is what happened" format, I'll verify and file it. but make sure that you are on KDE 4.3 first, as it is a bit different than KDE 4.2. Thanks!

Open ksnapshot and create a screenshot. Press "Save As", click on "Home", and click on the background of the directory list. Now you can do a quick keyboard navigation. Enter the directory name in which you want to change. Then press ENTER. Normally one would expect that you only change into this directory when pressing ENTER. But the open dialog does not only change into the directory, but saves also the file in this dir afterwards. This is unintuitive. If the cursor / focus is in the directory list ENTER should only be used for the navigation in the directory tree. Only when I changed to the filename input field (by pressing TAB) and press ENTER I would expect the file to get saved.

You are 100% right. I am plagiarizing your reproduction instructions here: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205781

Thanks, Stefan. You really have an eye for details, please keep me update with them of file them! But just remember when filing that the devs demand a very factual style, please don't give them a reason to evade the bug with sarcasm. Have a great week!

Hm, when I wrote this text yesterday I thought about the battery plasmoid in more detail, and I came to the conclusion that it can't be meant seriously. Therefore I thought it would be OK to write it that way. Seemingly I was wrong in this point. Sorry.

No problem.

Furthermore I'm not sure if the duplicated bug report is going into the direction of KLaptop. Doesn't seem so. They are not discussing a steadily progress bar. But if I would join this discussion it could get very long. It's better for me to wait some months. Maybe in the meantime another developer writes an alternative plasmoid addressing my issue. I think that's more likely than fixing the default battery plasmoid.

It might not be in the same direction, but it does seem to address the issue.

...

Kmail and Dolphin have tree views.

OK, that might be. I'm not familiar with them. I'm going to test them in the next days.

Thanks. If you file a bug, please send me the number so that I can triage. Or if you want me to file it, let me know what you find.

...

Thanks, Stefan. You really have an eye for details, please keep me update with them of file them! But just remember when filing that the devs demand a very factual style, please don't give them a reason to evade the bug with sarcasm. Have a great week!

Yes, I try to get rid of my personal dislike of KDE4 and I will be more careful when filing bugs in future.

Keep hating it! Just let us know why, so that we can improve! Actually, I think that KDE 4.3 should finally be "not hatable" for most KDE 3 users, but I really, really need to hear from those who continue to hate it for sound reasons.

The tree view navigation of dolphin is already perfect. It has all the features I mentioned in my last mail. Also kmail has the functionality to jump to the parent node by pressing LEFT (here UP and DOWN are not used for tree navigation). Oh, I've updated my system and now system-settings is also capable of the "move to parent node" function. Very good. The only function that is still missing is the ENTER action to open the corresponding settings in right part of the window. I've filed a feature request for that here: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205830

Regards, Stefan

Thanks, Stefan, I commented and voted for the bug.

First of all, I did not know that Timothy is really fixing bugs in KDE3 and implements even new features. Wow! That's great. Thank you Tim! I think this is also a useful hint for the website, because the unmaintenance of KDE3 is the major reason why people are switching from KDE3 to other DEs and in same cases also to KDE4 (although I don't know any KDE4 users). Thus, I would suggest a hint to the main page. Maybe you can even find other programmers that are going to help you with the maintenance of KDE3 and there programs. I would immediate join this project if I would be a good C programmer.

On the other hand, I also want to thank Dotan for his work. He's offering this spare time to help improving KDE4 and making it usable. Although you might think that KDE4 will never reach the usability stage of KDE3 (since KDE4 is using a much slower Qt I'm also pessimistic regarding that) you have to admit that as long as only one person is working on KDE3 you cannot expect major improvements for KDE3. I think it will get harder and harder to keep KDE3 up-to-date. And therefore sometimes you have to switch to certain KDE4 applications if you want to use new features like the form filling feature in okular. That's why we all can only benefit from Dotans support. For those who feel annoyed by Dotans mails, please just ignore them, because some of use appreciate his work.

Regards, Stefan

kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net schrieb:

...

Hope is nice, but with no developers working on KDE 3 it will soon suffer the same bitrot that all abandoned software suffers (think BeOS, Amiga).

Hi Dotan,

While I don't agree with the tone of some of the replies you received (I do appreciate what you are doing here) I need to respond to this particular point.

I *am* developing KDE3. If you look in the PPA that I maintain, you will see a whole slew of my patches that add new features, fix old bugs, and generally keep the code compilable and functional as the backend libraries change over time.

Now, from all appearances, *if* I were to stop development then yes, KDE would bitrot and become unusable--purely because no one else has stepped forward to assist.

I use KDE3.5 for a different purpose than some. My desktop is configured to look, feel, and act like an enhanced version of Windows XP in "Classic" mode. Like it or not, and I know many would argue with me, Microsoft had one of the best desktop interfaces available with that release. If they hadn't abandoned it, I would still be an avid Microsoft user.

Likewise, I know I will be argued with up and down on this, but KDE4 seems, from a look-n-feel perspective only, to be a hybrid of Windows Vista and the latest Mac OS. I hate those two operating systems. In almost every design choice. Period.

I am not alone here. Many engineers I have talked with do not like the new interface. There are some of us who use a GUI simply because more information can be placed on it, and many tasks made faster, than the command line. Gnome and KDE4 don't have very much *useful* and *relevant* information on the screen at any given time. These people have also mentioned that the interface has a clunky feel, that they are having difficulty just getting basic tasks done in a streamlined, efficient fashion. Simply, more clicks required in the UI per task == more time wasted.

The clunkiness has a direct impact on this. The DE should recede into the background, not constantly push its way into the foreground. When it shoves its way into the users programs, in the form of excessively large menu bars, taskbars, and buttons, valuable screen space is stolen from the user's application, forcing more scrolling, window management operations, and application menu use inside the user's program.

This is a common flaw with the new direction all desktops seem to be heading in. They are all pretty (well, actually, the Mac OS is pretty, while Vista and KDE4 are really ugly), and seem to work well--until you try to use them in your job, when you have 4 clients and 2 managers demanding you get X, Y, and Z done *NOW*. Then you find that in order to multitask in any sensible form you will need to learn to click constantly, everywhere, and end up purchasing a really big replacement monitor. Yet, somehow, your old monitor was perfectly adequate under Windows XP and KDE3.5. Your programs haven't changed. So why again is your DE forcing you to buy new hardware and slowing you down?

Hmmm.

No thanks.

I have even caused some older folks, who have used Windows since it came out, to switch to Linux. How? By showing them a truly better desktop interface: Windows XP classic + some sorely needed features--in other words, KDE3.5. They all hated where Windows was going, and Mac was too limiting.

So, rant aside, try adding a "super-tiny-taskbar, icons, buttons, and menus" option. Also make an "angular buttons option" so that they can be compacted on the screen the way they always were. (Actually IIRC that last one finally does exist in KDE3).

Also, make it so that the shiny stuff can be turned off. Menu drop shadows are OK, but shiny rounded menus are distracting.

Bring back the old KDE control center.

Bring back task tray icons as plasmoid replacements. I DON'T LIKE having to minimize my windows (an extra click) to get at something critical like the network manager plasmoid and then have to un-minimize them all again when I am done (another extra click). To say nothing of having to check connectivity in another program and then go back to the plasmoid....click click click click click....grrrr...Windows was so much better... This is a massive waste of the user's time and is, bluntly, a really, really stupid design decision. You NEVER want to make the users think what I just wrote.

I like putting icons on my desktop. Only icons. Can we turn off that stupid cashew yet?

The UI fonts are way too large.

Why can't I *easily* and *intuitively* reconfigure something as basic as my desktop???

You get the point. Many of these items are design decisions that the developers made to "set KDE4 apart". I don't think they will be fixed anytime soon. Feel free to surprise me though! :-)

Timothy Pearson KDE3.5 Maintainer Embedded Systems Engineer Raptor Engineering

I will give you that. However, it is a goal of KDE 4 to match KDE 3 in

features and usability

No. This is not the goal of KDE4.

What is the direction of KDE 3? Seriously, Ilya, please post a specific example of a fix that would help make KDE 4 closer to KDE 3

I think they should simply revert all changes made after KDE3.5. I know no useful changes since then.

However, even though you have the right to continue using and developing KDE 3, nobody is doing that.

I think KDE3.5 does not need too much development now. It's OK as of current state. Sometimes it is evident that vandalist "development" is much worser.

My goal is to make KDE 4 as good as KDE 3

Well, revert all changes since KDE3.5 and it'll be as good.

I am not advertising nor spamming.

Well, better description is 'crusading'. Like coming to a synagogue and trying to convince everybody that Judaism is 'outdated'.

I have no need to ask Gnome or XFCE

users what their DE provides that KDE 4 does not, because their DE is not abandonware.

'Abandonware' is a term from proprietary world.

Ask Gnome and XFCE users what KDE 4 is missing for

them would in fact be trying to get converts.

Just the same here.

Then please continue using KDE 3 and let me help those who are stuck with it and would like to use the more current version but are unable to do so.

KDE4 is not a 'more current' version of KDE3 (in the same sense as KDE3 is more modern version of KDE2 and KDE2 is more modern version of KDE1). I'd say it is not KDE at all.

No, I am asking what features are missing in KDE 4 to the people who actually know what features are missing and have not migrated because of that.

I am one of those people. But describing what features missing in Gnome compared to KDE3 would be much quicker. I dont think you wish to see here hundreeds of pages describing differences between KDE4 and KDE3 which make it unusable.

I'd like to see stackable panels for KDE 4. That way I can put the "Run Command" applet and the system tray in the top one, and everything else in the bottom one. KDE 3.5 is so far the only DE that will do this for me (Xfce doesn't have stackable panels either, and GNOME doesn't have a panel applet like that.)

On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Dotan Cohen dotancohen@gmail.com wrote:

...

...

No, I am asking what features are missing in KDE 4 to the people who actually know what features are missing and have not migrated because of that.

I am one of those people. But describing what features missing in Gnome

compared to KDE3 would be much quicker. I dont think you wish to see here hundreeds of pages describing differences between KDE4 and KDE3 which make it unusable.

...

If you have a list of hundreds of properties/features of KDE 4 that make it unusable, then please, please send it to me! You can send it off list if you feel that is appropriate.

I don't need to see the _all_ differences between them, just those that make KDE 4 unusable for you. Put the more important ones at the top as I will handle them one by one. Thanks!

-- Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il

When you comment, please make sure that you answer Aaron's comment #15. He is the guy who will implement the feature, so answering his concern is very important.

This is a screenshot of my desktop under Ubuntu Jaunty:

http://www.linux.org.ru/gallery/3841036.png

Now I do not use KDE because KDE3 from the semi-official repo caused problems with other packages and is incomplete. I am now considering to switch to another distro with better KDE3 support (such as SuSE of Alt Linux).

Nice desktop! I like how clean it is.

Did you file any bug at http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net regarding the package incompatibilities and missing programs? I have been restoring many missing programs for the Karmic release, including full international l18n support.

Also, if you have feature requests for any KDE components, please file them at the same place.

Thanks!

Timothy Pearson KDE3.5 Maintainer

Bugzilla has suffered an internal error. Please save this page and send it to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net with details of what you were doing at the time this message appeared.

URL: http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/post_bug.cgi

Thanks for the heads up. This happened when you filed Bug 110, correct? (http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=110)

It looks like it couldn't send a confirmation Email, but the bug was entered correctly into the system.

I am working on this.

Thanks!

Tim

• Why in your repoisitories for Jaunty there are no kubuntu-desktop-kde3 and kde-kde3? How to install it without enabling repos for other distros?

Obviously I'm just guessing here, but perhaps it has to do with the size restrictions on PPAs. Plus, it's not enabling repos for other distros...it's just enabling the repo originally set up for intrepid (a different release, not a different distro)...makes sense, considering how many things haven't changed, to have the jaunty repo just be the updates and changes from the KDE3 release for Intrepid. The modular and hierarchical nature of the Debian .deb/apt packaging system makes this both the easiest and arguably the best way to accomplish setting up the repos for Ubuntu+KDE3.

It is completely broken.

While I agree in many respects, unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean, you are wrong about two of the issues. I can easily tell KDE4's Konqueror "open in tabs" when folders are selected, and it opens a new tab for each (this is 4.3 though, I didn't start using KDE4's Konqueror much at all until the 4.3 RCs started coming out). Also, through some confluence KDE-related installs on my 13" laptop I ended up with some .desktop files, for example a Home.desktop one. It works just fine, and on the rare occasions I load a KDE4 session on said laptop (normally I use LXDE, Openbox or KDE3.5, but sometimes I'm adventurous) the Home.desktop file works fine.

For the record the makeup of the Home.desktop file is:

--------------------------- [Desktop Entry] Encoding=UTF-8 Name=Home GenericName=Personal Files URL[$e]=$HOME Icon=user-home Type=Link

X-Ubuntu-Gettext-Domain=desktop_kdebase-runtime --------------------------

I assume it'd be easy to create .desktop files for the other special locations you'd want, like Trash and whatnot. Naturally I haven't bothered since I generally use neither KDE4 nor the "desktop" on my laptop, but you know.

2009/8/23 Илья Черных neptunia@mail.ru:

Well, I'll try to describe the most annoying things in KDE4.

First of all, as already mentioned, it's gigantism. Take for example Plastik theme in KDE3.5 and its much worser version Plastique in KDE4. Even with the same fonts Plastique has larger buttons and menu bars as if they were designed for Chinese ideograms.

Next is sharp lines. KDE3.5 was advertised for it's sharp lines compared to Gnome. You can read about it even in the 'about' box. But KDE4 becomes inverse of it. You can also compare Plastique to Plastik to see the sharp lines around the buttons removed.

Aside of lyrics.

• The panel should use widget style of Qt even if the Qt style does not provide special style for Plasma. So the panel and other windows should always use the same style.

• The icons on the desktop should use file manager, so it would be possible to make with desktop icons the same operations as with icons in file manager.

• Should be possibility to disable all transparent plastic-like effects, for example those appearing when hovering over desktop icons.

• Functionality of file manager shold be restored. For example, it was a surprise for me that there is no the very basic option "open each folder in a new window" in Dolphin. This function exists in KDE3, Nautilus, Windows, MacOS, OpenGEM, Seal, Ozone, CDE etc. In Konqueror this option appears but does not work (as of KDE 4.2).

• Look of file manager should be restored. Difficult to describe but some of the things is too large distances between icons, annoying pictures apopearing when hovering a mouse over icons, selection with a bad-looking rectangle like in MinuetOS, bad looking tree view etc.

• Ability to place on the desktop icons for special places such as Storage devices, Trash, Home, Network etc.

I would like also port of KDE artwork such as Slick icon theme, Light Qt style etc.

This is a screenshot of my desktop under Ubuntu Jaunty:

http://www.linux.org.ru/gallery/3841036.png

Now I do not use KDE because KDE3 from the semi-official repo caused problems with other packages and is incomplete. I am now considering to switch to another distro with better KDE3 support (such as SuSE of Alt Linux).

From technical poit of view I'd like the window manager to provide the option 'sync to vblank' in the same way as Compiz does. Otherwise there is tearing on games and when moving windows. To day as I know only Compiz can do it in proper way.

First of all, as already mentioned, it's gigantism. Take for example Plastik theme in KDE3.5 and its much worser version Plastique in KDE4. Even with the same fonts Plastique has larger buttons and menu bars as if they were designed for Chinese ideograms.

Please mention that on this bug, so that the devs will know it: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204917

Be polite, not accusatory! Thanks!

Next is sharp lines. KDE3.5 was advertised for it's sharp lines compared to Gnome. You can read about it even in the 'about' box. But KDE4 becomes inverse of it. You can also compare Plastique to Plastik to see the sharp lines around the buttons removed.

Could you post the text explaining this? I have never heard about it, and in fact it may no longer be a goal of KDE. I will ask about that on the KDE list when I see the 'about' text. Thanks.

Aside of lyrics.

I do not understand.

• The panel should use widget style of Qt even if the Qt style does not provide special style for Plasma. So the panel and other windows should always use the same style.

I think that this is what themes are for. If the Qt style does not provide special style for Plasma then how would you expect it to work? I am willing to follow up on the idea with you, but I do not understand the problem. Do you want styles to be more akin to themes?

• The icons on the desktop should use file manager, so it would be possible to make with desktop icons the same operations as with icons in file manager.

Do you mean that the context menu of the Folder View plasmoid should be the same as the context menu of the default file manager? That is a great idea, here, I filed it: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204947

• Should be possibility to disable all transparent plastic-like effects, for example those appearing when hovering over desktop icons.

It is possible in KDE 4.3.

• Functionality of file manager shold be restored. For example, it was a surprise for me that there is no the very basic option "open each folder in a new window" in Dolphin. This function exists in KDE3, Nautilus, Windows, MacOS, OpenGEM, Seal, Ozone, CDE etc. In Konqueror this option appears but does not work (as of KDE 4.2).

Please comment: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204948

• Look of file manager should be restored. Difficult to describe but some of the things is too large distances between icons, annoying pictures apopearing when hovering a mouse over icons,

Those are configurable.

selection with a bad-looking rectangle like in MinuetOS,

Could you elaborate? What is bad-looking about the rubberband (that's what the rectangle is called)? Does it affect your work?

bad looking tree view etc.

Please elaborate, I do not see anything wrong with this.

• Ability to place on the desktop icons for special places such as Storage devices, Trash, Home, Network etc.

There exists the Device Notifier plasmoid, and the Trash can be shown in the Folder View plasmoid.

I would like also port of KDE artwork such as Slick icon theme, Light Qt style etc.

Please do! I am sure that many people would appreciate your effort. Thanks.

Now I do not use KDE because KDE3 from the semi-official repo caused problems with other packages and is incomplete. I am now considering to switch to another distro with better KDE3 support (such as SuSE of Alt Linux).

I see.

From technical poit of view I'd like the window manager to provide the option 'sync to vblank' in the same way as Compiz does. Otherwise there is tearing on games and when moving windows. To day as I know only Compiz can do it in proper way.

To tell you the truth, that is a bit out of my field of expertise so I suggest that you file that feature request yourself. I am sorry I cannot help with it, but you seem to have enough grip on the subject to make a good request. Here is the link: https://bugs.kde.org

Like kicker. It did not require special kiker theme. For example, Qt themes prted from KDE3 (Phase for example) do not have style for plasma and hence the panel looks different than other windows. Ideally the panel should not utilize plasma at all. But since it is not the case, it should at least be able to make impression that it it not plasma, but a normal window.

Then you need to talk with those who are porting the themes. I'm sorry, but there are KDE 4 themes that do as you expect and I really don't see a problem. In any case, suggestig that the panel should not utilize plasma is ridiculous, the panel _is_ plasma.

...

Could you elaborate? What is bad-looking about the rubberband (that's what the rectangle is called)? Does it affect your work?

No. It does affect my feel that KDE4 is something like home-made hobby DE like MinuetOS.

I do not understand. What would not affect your feel that KDE4 is something like home-made hobby DE like MinuetOS (An OS that I am not familiar with, so there is not use in comparing the two)?

...

There exists the Device Notifier plasmoid, and the Trash can be shown in the Folder View plasmoid.

I do not use plasmoids other than folder view for the whole desktop. I want the abovementioned places were just as other icons (and I could work with them just as with others).

Comment here: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204953

...

Please do! I am sure that many people would appreciate your effort. Thanks.

It was you who came here and asked what to do. I have other things to do. And I heve other DEs which are much better for me than KDE4.

I am sorry, I misinterpreted your post as your intention to port the KDE artwork. I did not mean to insult you by suggesting that _you_ actually put some effort into KDE, which is a community effort. Please accept my apologies for my misinterpretation, my suggestion, and my thanks of your incorrectly-perceived offer.

I suppose that my two children, my volunteer work at a humanitarian-aid center, my university degree, and my own work do not count as "other things to do" for purposes of one putting an effort into KDE that we all enjoy. I free you now from even the time that it would take to file a feature request or respond in an appreciative manner to someone who is willing to file the feature request for you. You may now killfile my address and disregard further communication from me. I won't bother you again, assuming that you realize that public communications from me (websites, mailing lists) are not directed for you but rather for all those who read such a public forum and I cannot prevent your from reading those public forums.

...

• Should be possibility to disable all transparent plastic-like effects, for example those appearing when hovering over desktop icons.

It is possible in KDE 4.3.

I tested KDE 4.3, disabled all those visual effects in system-settings, but could not get rid of the transparent hovering stuff that appear, when you go over an desktop icon. Do you know how to do that?

Regards, Stefan

I am probably just not understanding simple things today, Stefan. How you send to me a screenshot of the offending transparent hovering stuff? Thanks.

Nor can I type! I need sleep! That should have been:

I am probably just not understanding simple things today, Stefan. Can you send to me a screenshot of the offending transparent hovering stuff? Thanks.

Ine thing is that the style of this plastic selection does not depend on Qt4 or Plasma theme. It makes significant inconsistency.

My goal is to help people who are stuck using abandoned software.

People arent stuck with abandoned software or any software whatsoever. I am not stuck with KDE3, once I feel Gnome is better I'll move to Gnome. It is highly unprobable though I'll ever decide to use KDE4 (switching to Windows or even MacOS X is more likely).

I woul like to see a very fast, simple, lightweight editor, a la kedit, in kde4.  Usuallly kate is way more than I need.

Have you tried Kwrite?

BTW, I tried out one of the early versions of kde4 and found it to be buggy, incomplete and unusable, so I was pleasantly surprised when I upgraded to kde4.3; after using it (me, my wife and two kids) for a couple of weeks, we have wiped kde3.5.10 off the machine.

Thank you for your work on kde4.

It's not my work, it is the work of Aaron and hundreds of other coders. I just try to bridge the gap between coders and users. If you google Aaron Seigo, though, I'm sure that he will appreciate the thanks.

I really miss the window list button on the taskbar/kicker panel.

Fancy Tasks is not a perfect substitute by far...

What is wrong with it? Since it is much more feasible to fix Fancy Tasks than to make a new plasmoid (unless you want to make it) then please be specific and we will file bugs.

Thanks.

2009/8/25 Jerry Gluck jgluck@nyc.rr.com:

Well, I must have had a "senior moment"... I rebooted my test system into Kubuntu 9.04, and updated to 4.3. Some time recently, I seem to have found a window list plasmoid.  My only complaint about it, is that its taskbar/applet icon is huge... :-D

Please, please comment on these two bugs, regarding the widget sizes: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=196307 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182193

With Fancy Tasks, I set a hotkey, and that's OK, if I have both hands on the keyboard, but I do miss being able to click on my desktop, and get a window list also...

You don't even need to right-click. Add the Task Manager widget to the desktop.

Having the little arrow button by the pager, to pop up a window list, sorted by desktop, is a no-brainer, as far as I'm concerned...

I do not understand. There exists a little arrow button by the pager, or you would like one?

...

...

Having the little arrow button by the pager, to pop up a window list, sorted by desktop, is a no-brainer, as far as I'm concerned...

I do not understand. There exists a little arrow button by the pager, or you would like one?

I'm not seeing a little arrow. Can you send a screen capture, please?

Alright, Jerry, I lost you in this thread! I do not even remember what we were talking about, but you mentioned that a little arrow is a "no brainer" and I did not know if that means that there exists and arrow or that you would like one.

Just to clear things up: remind me exactly what the issue was, and the solution as you see fit. Please excuse my getting lost in the thread.