On Sunday 04 October 2020 11:58:15 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:

Anno domini 2020 Sun, 4 Oct 11:52:09 -0700

William Morder via tde-users scripsit:

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Now that I checked my own sources.list, it occurred to me to try an upgrade, and there are lots of new Trinity packages available. However, many of these are language packs that I don't really need:

tde-i18n-af-trinity tde-i18n-ar-trinity tde-i18n-az-trinity tde-i18n-be-trinity tde-i18n-bg-trinity tde-i18n-bn-trinity tde-i18n-br-trinity tde-i18n-bs-trinity tde-i18n-ca-trinity tde-i18n-cs-trinity tde-i18n-csb-trinity tde-i18n-cy-trinity tde-i18n-da-trinity tde-i18n-de-trinity tde-i18n-el-trinity tde-i18n-engb-trinity tde-i18n-eo-trinity tde-i18n-es-trinity tde-i18n-et-trinity tde-i18n-eu-trinity tde-i18n-fa-trinity tde-i18n-fi-trinity tde-i18n-fr-trinity tde-i18n-fy-trinity tde-i18n-ga-trinity tde-i18n-gl-trinity tde-i18n-he-trinity tde-i18n-hi-trinity tde-i18n-hr-trinity tde-i18n-hu-trinity tde-i18n-is-trinity tde-i18n-it-trinity tde-i18n-ja-trinity tde-i18n-kk-trinity tde-i18n-km-trinity tde-i18n-ko-trinity tde-i18n-lt-trinity tde-i18n-lv-trinity tde-i18n-mk-trinity tde-i18n-mn-trinity tde-i18n-ms-trinity tde-i18n-nb-trinity tde-i18n-nds-trinity tde-i18n-nl-trinity tde-i18n-nn-trinity tde-i18n-pa-trinity tde-i18n-pl-trinity tde-i18n-pt-trinity tde-i18n-ptbr-trinity tde-i18n-ro-trinity tde-i18n-ru-trinity tde-i18n-rw-trinity tde-i18n-se-trinity tde-i18n-sk-trinity tde-i18n-sl-trinity tde-i18n-sr-trinity tde-i18n-srlatin-trinity tde-i18n-ss-trinity tde-i18n-sv-trinity tde-i18n-ta-trinity tde-i18n-te-trinity tde-i18n-tg-trinity tde-i18n-th-trinity tde-i18n-tr-trinity tde-i18n-uk-trinity tde-i18n-uz-trinity tde-i18n-uzcyrillic-trinity tde-i18n-vi-trinity tde-i18n-wa-trinity tde-i18n-zhcn-trinity tde-i18n-zhtw-trinity

Is there any way to upgrade without also downloading ALL of these?!?! I am pretty sure I did not install earlier versions of these packages.

IMO this should not happen. Can't you uninstall them?

Nik

...

Bill

Sure, of course I can uninstall them. The thing is, I *never* installed them at all; I would have noticed something like THAT.

Therefore, one would think, I ought not have to install or uninstall them now.

Bill

Anno domini 2020 Mon, 5 Oct 12:40:08 -0700 William Morder via tde-users scripsit:

On Sunday 04 October 2020 11:58:15 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:

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Anno domini 2020 Sun, 4 Oct 11:52:09 -0700

William Morder via tde-users scripsit:

...

Now that I checked my own sources.list, it occurred to me to try an upgrade, and there are lots of new Trinity packages available. However, many of these are language packs that I don't really need:

tde-i18n-af-trinity tde-i18n-ar-trinity tde-i18n-az-trinity tde-i18n-be-trinity tde-i18n-bg-trinity tde-i18n-bn-trinity tde-i18n-br-trinity tde-i18n-bs-trinity tde-i18n-ca-trinity tde-i18n-cs-trinity tde-i18n-csb-trinity tde-i18n-cy-trinity tde-i18n-da-trinity tde-i18n-de-trinity tde-i18n-el-trinity tde-i18n-engb-trinity tde-i18n-eo-trinity tde-i18n-es-trinity tde-i18n-et-trinity tde-i18n-eu-trinity tde-i18n-fa-trinity tde-i18n-fi-trinity tde-i18n-fr-trinity tde-i18n-fy-trinity tde-i18n-ga-trinity tde-i18n-gl-trinity tde-i18n-he-trinity tde-i18n-hi-trinity tde-i18n-hr-trinity tde-i18n-hu-trinity tde-i18n-is-trinity tde-i18n-it-trinity tde-i18n-ja-trinity tde-i18n-kk-trinity tde-i18n-km-trinity tde-i18n-ko-trinity tde-i18n-lt-trinity tde-i18n-lv-trinity tde-i18n-mk-trinity tde-i18n-mn-trinity tde-i18n-ms-trinity tde-i18n-nb-trinity tde-i18n-nds-trinity tde-i18n-nl-trinity tde-i18n-nn-trinity tde-i18n-pa-trinity tde-i18n-pl-trinity tde-i18n-pt-trinity tde-i18n-ptbr-trinity tde-i18n-ro-trinity tde-i18n-ru-trinity tde-i18n-rw-trinity tde-i18n-se-trinity tde-i18n-sk-trinity tde-i18n-sl-trinity tde-i18n-sr-trinity tde-i18n-srlatin-trinity tde-i18n-ss-trinity tde-i18n-sv-trinity tde-i18n-ta-trinity tde-i18n-te-trinity tde-i18n-tg-trinity tde-i18n-th-trinity tde-i18n-tr-trinity tde-i18n-uk-trinity tde-i18n-uz-trinity tde-i18n-uzcyrillic-trinity tde-i18n-vi-trinity tde-i18n-wa-trinity tde-i18n-zhcn-trinity tde-i18n-zhtw-trinity

Is there any way to upgrade without also downloading ALL of these?!?! I am pretty sure I did not install earlier versions of these packages.

IMO this should not happen. Can't you uninstall them?

Nik

...

Bill

Sure, of course I can uninstall them. The thing is, I *never* installed them at all; I would have noticed something like THAT.

Therefore, one would think, I ought not have to install or uninstall them now.

Bill

So ... to add the question to my own non-answer: Are all those language packs, by some chance, included as part of some other packages or metapackages, or whatever?

I am quite sure that I never installed them at all, as I would have noticed when apt-get listed them as packages to be installed or upgraded; only with this recent upgrade did they suddenly offer themselves.

In fact I did have to uninstall them manually, after which they did not appear among items to be upgraded. So it's not a critical problem, and now they are gone, problem solved for the moment.

The real question is, How did they get installed in the first place? Assuming that I didn't just go temporarily blind and miss something so obvious, then the next most likely possibility is that they get installed as dependencies for other items, or that they are part of a metapackage. Can anybody answer this question? as I would prefer not to install these or other unwanted packages.

Are you up to some investigation?

fgrep tde-i18n-af-trinity /var/log/aptitude /var/log/apt/history.log zfgrep tde-i18n-af-trinity /var/log/aptitude*gz /var/log/apt/history.log*gz

That should help to figure out when it was installed.

Nik

Bill

On Monday 05 October 2020 14:36:37 Slávek Banko via tde-users wrote:

On Monday 05 of October 2020 21:40:08 William Morder via tde-users wrote:

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On Sunday 04 October 2020 11:58:15 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:

...

Anno domini 2020 Sun, 4 Oct 11:52:09 -0700

William Morder via tde-users scripsit:

...

Now that I checked my own sources.list, it occurred to me to try an upgrade, and there are lots of new Trinity packages available. However, many of these are language packs that I don't really need:

SNIP - see previous posts for the whole list

...

...

...

Is there any way to upgrade without also downloading ALL of these?!?! I am pretty sure I did not install earlier versions of these packages.

IMO this should not happen. Can't you uninstall them?

Nik

...

So ... to add the question to my own non-answer: Are all those language packs, by some chance, included as part of some other packages or metapackages, or whatever?

snip

...

The real question is, How did they get installed in the first place? Assuming that I didn't just go temporarily blind and miss something so obvious, then the next most likely possibility is that they get installed as dependencies for other items, or that they are part of a metapackage. Can anybody answer this question? as I would prefer not to install these or other unwanted packages.

Bill

...

Are you up to some investigation?

fgrep tde-i18n-af-trinity /var/log/aptitude /var/log/apt/history.log zfgrep tde-i18n-af-trinity /var/log/aptitude*gz /var/log/apt/history.log*gz

...

That should help to figure out when it was installed.

...

Nik

The grep commands yield no pertinent information, so far as I can tell. For one thing, I don't use aptitude, but always apt-get. However, I modified the commands, (hopefully) to include apt-get and apt, and still get nothing except that I have purged them already; no log of having installed them.

WTF?!?!

Hi Bill,

these packages certainly do not install automatically, without user intervention. The only dependency is that the tde-trinity metapackage has the symbolic name "tde-i18n-trinity" (virtual package) set as Suggests (less weight than Recommends), which fills all of these language packages.

Only hard dependencies would get installed in my system, no suggests or recommends.

However, as I mentioned, there would be a necessary collaboration from the user to choose to install this virtual package name.

Cheers

Thanks for your responses, both Nik and Slavek. However, I am still puzzled, to say the least. Not that it's a critical problem, but I do like to know when and why weird things like this occur.

Also, I will concede the possibiity of human error on my part, and that somehow this user interacted in a manner that I must have agreed to their installation. And yet, I believe I would have remembered such a long list of language packs.

In the past, I have been guilty of errors or mistakes; for example, 16 April 1964, and one earlier than that, in February of 1958. Since then, however, I have been more vigilant.

Bill

Bill

On Tuesday 06 October 2020 05:25:53 phiebie@drei.at wrote:

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For one thing, I don't use aptitude, but always apt-get.

Yes, you don't take the advice of some very experienced members here, even Slavek suggested it, to let the package-maintenance be done by a specially for that purpose designed program (aptitude), but stubbornely keep fiddling and meddling and messing around with what you think is the most appropriate method for you to do that. But you keep lamenting about the mishappenings you encounter on and on. Solve the problem at the root, not the top. Peter.

I am always willing to try something new. It's just not what I am used to.

Bill

On Wednesday 07 October 2020 00:18:23 deloptes via tde-users wrote:

William Morder via tde-users wrote:

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I am always willing to try something new. It's just not what I am used to.

I have only two language packs installed. Upgrade never tries to install additional language packs. Upgrade works perfect for 5y+ already.

I must admit I do not mess around with package dependencies, rather keep the desktop/server/fw stable.

It could be that I just totally missed them, but I do always skim through the entire list of packages to be installed or removed, and I don't recall seeing those items when I clicked to install. That list of packages just looks too long for me not to have noticed.

I use a lot of different fonts for Office documents, and may wish to display some exotic text within a document, but this is a different and limited sort of usage, for which I don't need language packs. And anyway, it is more of a puzzle than a problem.

In fact, my system is running pretty well now, if I make allowances for having upgraded from Devuan Jessie almost straight through to Devuan Beowulf. Give me another month or two, and I will work out the kinks.

Bill

Dne st 7. října 2020 Michael via tde-users napsal(a):

PS2:  Slávek do you know why Bill's (and probably a few others') email address gets included as a CC: when replying [Kmail >> R]?  And yet most other people (yours in fact) doesn't.  Nothing critical, just annoying to always need to check and delete the extraneous addresses.

Here, it depends on whether the sender has an SPF set for his domain and / or whether the message contains a DKIM signature valid for the sender's domain. To prevent rejection of the post due to SPF violation or due to violation of the DKIM signature, "DMARC mitigation" is performed, where the address of the original sender is moved to CC: and the address of the mailing list is used for the sender.

However, whether the original sender's address will be automatically added to the To: when replying depends on whether the original sender has his address explicitly listed as the Reply-To: header.

Cheers

On Wednesday 07 October 2020 08:22:17 Michael via tde-users wrote:

On Wednesday 07 October 2020 09:56:59 am Slávek Banko via tde-users wrote:

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Dne st 7. října 2020 Michael via tde-users napsal(a):

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PS2:  Slávek do you know why Bill's (and probably a few others') email address gets included as a CC: when replying [Kmail >> R]?  And yet most other people (yours in fact) doesn't.  Nothing critical, just annoying to always need to check and delete the extraneous addresses.

Here, it depends on whether the sender has an SPF set for his domain and / or whether the message contains a DKIM signature valid for the sender's domain. To prevent rejection of the post due to SPF violation or due to violation of the DKIM signature, "DMARC mitigation" is performed, where the address of the original sender is moved to CC: and the address of the mailing list is used for the sender.

However, whether the original sender's address will be automatically added to the To: when replying depends on whether the original sender has his address explicitly listed as the Reply-To: header.

Ah, cool. Thanks!

Mailing lists have to be a pain...

Yes, I must admit, I don't envy the person(s) who get that job. Along with managing the glut of technical sludge, of course, Slavek and anybody else must have a lot of soft skills, so that we can all get along.

;-)

Myself, I was sort of waiting until the old list expired until I worried about all the duplicates.

I used to send myself a bcc for emails, just to be sure that mail was going in and out. But even after I tried to stop doing that for the TDE list, I still get about 4 emails now for every 1 that I send out. When the old list expires, that will be cut in half, I hope.

Bill

Michael via tde-users wrote:

Yeah, I never upgrade.  I always do a clean install and preserve my homedir. *

I never do a new install unless I need to setup a clean system. I keep my system clean and stable. A new installation is like moving in a new home - you have to arrange the furniture and everything again. Upgrade is like painting the walls in new color and replacing or better renovating some furniture. It took me several years to get the home-office setup I am using, but since 5y+ I just upgrade software and/or hardware. Together with TDE it is a blessing. You sit down, do your work and leave - no issues to debug, no problems to solve.

You still get oddities, but you usually end up with a much cleaner (e.g. more stable) system that way.

Oddities are symptoms for disease - you choose to burn your "house" and build a new one, I choose to fix. I guess it depends what kind of "house" you have ... from hut to castle :) it makes a difference in the time to build :)

regards

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