S'Okay, we all know spam exists, and any list is going to get some...
I'm also pretty sure the mods of our list delete the spammer's account immediately.
So? Please? Can we agree to just delete what does get through?
Best All, Michael
On Saturday 24 October 2020 12:13:41 Michael via tde-users wrote:
S'Okay, we all know spam exists, and any list is going to get some...
I'm also pretty sure the mods of our list delete the spammer's account immediately.
So? Please? Can we agree to just delete what does get through?
Best All, Michael
NO! We can never agree! Otherwise, some people will have nothing to do.
Bill
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@lists.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-users-help@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting
On Saturday 24 October 2020 02:20:57 pm William Morder via trinity-users via tde-users wrote:
On Saturday 24 October 2020 12:13:41 Michael via tde-users wrote:
S'Okay, we all know spam exists, and any list is going to get some...
I'm also pretty sure the mods of our list delete the spammer's account immediately.
So? Please? Can we agree to just delete what does get through?
Best All, Michael
NO! We can never agree! Otherwise, some people will have nothing to do.
Bill
LOL! Actually I'm waiting for Kate's movie to come out as well ;)
On Saturday 24 October 2020 12:32:37 Michael via tde-users wrote:
On Saturday 24 October 2020 02:20:57 pm William Morder via trinity-users via
tde-users wrote:
On Saturday 24 October 2020 12:13:41 Michael via tde-users wrote:
S'Okay, we all know spam exists, and any list is going to get some...
I'm also pretty sure the mods of our list delete the spammer's account immediately.
So? Please? Can we agree to just delete what does get through?
Best All, Michael
NO! We can never agree! Otherwise, some people will have nothing to do.
Bill
LOL! Actually I'm waiting for Kate's movie to come out as well ;)
I am working on the merchandise and licensing.
Bill
On Saturday 24 October 2020 15:20:57 William Morder via trinity-users via tde-users wrote:
On Saturday 24 October 2020 12:13:41 Michael via tde-users wrote:
S'Okay, we all know spam exists, and any list is going to get some...
I'm also pretty sure the mods of our list delete the spammer's account immediately.
So? Please? Can we agree to just delete what does get through?
Best All, Michael
NO! We can never agree! Otherwise, some people will have nothing to do. ;-)
Bill
You forgot the smiley, Bill, so I fixed it for you.
To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@lists.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-users-help@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinity desktop.org
Cheers, Gene Heskett
On Saturday 24 of October 2020 21:13:41 Michael via tde-users wrote:
S'Okay, we all know spam exists, and any list is going to get some...
I'm also pretty sure the mods of our list delete the spammer's account immediately.
So? Please? Can we agree to just delete what does get through?
Best All, Michael ____________________________________________________
Hi all,
I analyzed the incoming spam from the first one that appeared. All these cases had one thing in common: they were not sent by e-mail, but via the Hyperkitty web interface.
This means that the spammer made an effort for him to join the conference, confirm the verification email for the subscription, log in to the web interface and take advantage of the fact that with Hyperkitty it is possible to use the mailing list in a way like a web forum.
For this reason, the post was first processed by Mailman, who creates emails for individual participants. Only then, these emails were processed by the mail server, which has an integrated spam filter. Therefore, these emails had the advantage of spam ratings, as they were created locally.
The question is how to deal with it? Each of these emails was sent from a different address - different participants => it will not be effective to block a specific participants here. And since spams sent in this way are currently very rare cases, it seems too restrictive to prevent the use of Hyperkitty for posting to mailing lists.
I suggest waiting to see if sending spam in this way will continue to be negligible or increase. And decide according to how it will continue. I believe that the necessary input effort is so large that it is unlikely to bring the expected result for spammers. That's why I hope that spam doesn't have to increase.
What is your opinion?
Cheers
Hi Slavec,
Anno domini 2020 Tue, 27 Oct 16:21:59 +0100 Slávek Banko via tde-users scripsit:
On Saturday 24 of October 2020 21:13:41 Michael via tde-users wrote:
S'Okay, we all know spam exists, and any list is going to get some...
I'm also pretty sure the mods of our list delete the spammer's account immediately.
So? Please? Can we agree to just delete what does get through?
Best All, Michael ____________________________________________________
Hi all,
I analyzed the incoming spam from the first one that appeared. All these cases had one thing in common: they were not sent by e-mail, but via the Hyperkitty web interface.
This means that the spammer made an effort for him to join the conference, confirm the verification email for the subscription, log in to the web interface and take advantage of the fact that with Hyperkitty it is possible to use the mailing list in a way like a web forum.
For this reason, the post was first processed by Mailman, who creates emails for individual participants. Only then, these emails were processed by the mail server, which has an integrated spam filter. Therefore, these emails had the advantage of spam ratings, as they were created locally.
The question is how to deal with it? Each of these emails was sent from a different address - different participants => it will not be effective to block a specific participants here. And since spams sent in this way are currently very rare cases, it seems too restrictive to prevent the use of Hyperkitty for posting to mailing lists.
I suggest waiting to see if sending spam in this way will continue to be negligible or increase. And decide according to how it will continue. I believe that the necessary input effort is so large that it is unlikely to bring the expected result for spammers. That's why I hope that spam doesn't have to increase.
What is your opinion?
Cheers
The same sort of spammers (same wording, diction, phrasing etc.) are active in e.g. arduino forum nad raspberrypi forum since ~ 6 months. Good thing is that the activity has been is going down in the last months, so most likeley this problem will go away in some months on its own.
Nik
What is your opinion?
I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of off-topic emails sent by regular list participants. I have been seriously considering unsubscribing from trinity-users because some people seem to treat the list as their private chat to discuss absolutely anything that comes to their mind. I wish the moderators were more strict and deleted all the TDE-unrelated chit-chat.
Janek
Quoting Janek Stolarek jwstolarek@gmail.com:
What is your opinion?
I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of off-topic emails sent by regular list participants. I have been seriously considering unsubscribing from trinity-users because some people seem to treat the list as their private chat to discuss absolutely anything that comes to their mind. I wish the moderators were more strict and deleted all the TDE-unrelated chit-chat.
Janek
+1
Jonesy
On Tuesday 27 October 2020 11:28:09 am The Joneses via tde-users wrote:
Quoting Janek Stolarek jwstolarek@gmail.com:
What is your opinion?
I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of off-topic emails sent by regular list participants. I have been seriously considering unsubscribing from trinity-users because some people seem to treat the list as their private chat to discuss absolutely anything that comes to their mind. I wish the moderators were more strict and deleted all the TDE-unrelated chit-chat.
Janek
+1
Jonesy
-1
Michael (You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before? Random chit-chat is de facto / de jur for any group of people who have known each other for years / decades. This is also the “users” list, not the “developers” list, e.g. users helping users, so this list will always have random chit-chat as that is the nature of “users” lists. Raging against the laws of the universe is all well and good, but seems kinda pointless...)
On Tuesday 27 October 2020, Michael via tde-users wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020 11:28:09 am The Joneses via tde-users wrote:
Quoting Janek Stolarek jwstolarek@gmail.com:
What is your opinion?
I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of off-topic emails sent by regular list participants. I have been seriously considering unsubscribing from trinity-users because some people seem to treat the list as their private chat to discuss absolutely anything that comes to their mind. I wish the moderators were more strict and deleted all the TDE-unrelated chit-chat.
Janek
+1
Jonesy
-1
Michael (You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before? Random chit-chat is de facto / de jur for any group of people who have known each other for years / decades. This is also the “users” list, not the “developers” list, e.g. users helping users, so this list will always have random chit-chat as that is the nature of “users” lists. Raging against the laws of the universe is all well and good, but seems kinda pointless...) ____________________________________________________
I agree with Micheal but I suggest creating an off topic mail list. If it hasn't already been done.
Kate
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@lists.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-users-help@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting
Quoting BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org:
I agree with Micheal but I suggest creating an off topic mail list. If it hasn't already been done.
It's been done!
It's called FaceBook, Twitter, or any number of other vapid "social media" forums.
On Tuesday 27 October 2020, The Joneses via tde-users wrote:
Quoting BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org:
I agree with Micheal but I suggest creating an off topic mail list. If it hasn't already been done.
It's been done!
It's called FaceBook, Twitter, or any number of other vapid "social media" forums. ____________________________________________________
Pass on all that none sense. That's pan to fire.
At least with a OT mailing list or a TrinitySocial mailing list it's contained. One can sign up or not.
I enjoy the madness. People here have great personalities, and stories to share. I learn from the insight and experience of others.
I don't understand your frustration Jonesey. Which is why I have toned it down.
Kate
On Tuesday 27 October 2020 12:13:02 BorgLabs - Kate Draven wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020, The Joneses via tde-users wrote:
Quoting BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org:
I agree with Micheal but I suggest creating an off topic mail list. If it hasn't already been done.
It's been done!
It's called FaceBook, Twitter, or any number of other vapid "social media" forums. ____________________________________________________
Pass on all that none sense. That's pan to fire.
At least with a OT mailing list or a TrinitySocial mailing list it's contained. One can sign up or not.
I enjoy the madness. People here have great personalities, and stories to share. I learn from the insight and experience of others.
I don't understand your frustration Jonesey. Which is why I have toned it down.
Kate
Funny, but I can appreciate, and identify with, all the different points of view expressed. I, too, find it annoying to read somebody else's drivel, especially when I already more or less disagree with their world view, or mailing list etiquette, or whatever other pretext we can invent to complain about other people.
Note that it is always other people who are the problem, never ourselves.
kvetch kvetch kvetch
Myself, I just wish that we could all get along here, but I dont' see how that is possible, so long as some of us are still breathing. Why not just try to let go, and trust that we'll come up with some better way to handle our differences? Life is too short to waste our energy on this stuff. Let's move on already.
Bill
On Tuesday 27 October 2020, William Morder wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020 12:13:02 BorgLabs - Kate Draven wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020, The Joneses via tde-users wrote:
Quoting BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org:
I agree with Micheal but I suggest creating an off topic mail list. If it hasn't already been done.
It's been done!
It's called FaceBook, Twitter, or any number of other vapid "social media" forums. ____________________________________________________
Pass on all that none sense. That's pan to fire.
At least with a OT mailing list or a TrinitySocial mailing list it's contained. One can sign up or not.
I enjoy the madness. People here have great personalities, and stories to share. I learn from the insight and experience of others.
I don't understand your frustration Jonesey. Which is why I have toned it down.
Kate
Funny, but I can appreciate, and identify with, all the different points of view expressed. I, too, find it annoying to read somebody else's drivel, especially when I already more or less disagree with their world view, or mailing list etiquette, or whatever other pretext we can invent to complain about other people.
Note that it is always other people who are the problem, never ourselves.
kvetch kvetch kvetch
Myself, I just wish that we could all get along here, but I dont' see how that is possible, so long as some of us are still breathing. Why not just try to let go, and trust that we'll come up with some better way to handle our differences? Life is too short to waste our energy on this stuff. Let's move on already.
Bill
+ 1
On Tuesday 27 October 2020 05:13:28 pm BorgLabs - Kate Draven wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020, William Morder wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020 12:13:02 BorgLabs - Kate Draven wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020, The Joneses via tde-users wrote:
Quoting BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users
I agree with Micheal but I suggest creating an off topic mail list. If it hasn't already been done.
It's been done!
It's called FaceBook, Twitter, or any number of other vapid "social media" forums. ____________________________________________________
Pass on all that none sense. That's pan to fire.
At least with a OT mailing list or a TrinitySocial mailing list it's contained. One can sign up or not.
I enjoy the madness. People here have great personalities, and stories to share. I learn from the insight and experience of others.
I don't understand your frustration Jonesey. Which is why I have toned it down.
Kate
Funny, but I can appreciate, and identify with, all the different points of view expressed. I, too, find it annoying to read somebody else's drivel, especially when I already more or less disagree with their world view, or mailing list etiquette, or whatever other pretext we can invent to complain about other people.
Note that it is always other people who are the problem, never ourselves.
kvetch kvetch kvetch
Myself, I just wish that we could all get along here, but I dont' see how that is possible, so long as some of us are still breathing. Why not just try to let go, and trust that we'll come up with some better way to handle our differences? Life is too short to waste our energy on this stuff. Let's move on already.
Bill
- 1
+1
On 2020-10-27 13:25:36 BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020, Michael via tde-users wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020 11:28:09 am The Joneses via tde-users wrote:
Quoting Janek Stolarek jwstolarek@gmail.com:
What is your opinion?
I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of off-topic emails sent by regular list participants. I have been seriously considering unsubscribing from trinity-users because some people seem to treat the list as their private chat to discuss absolutely anything that comes to their mind. I wish the moderators were more strict and deleted all the TDE-unrelated chit-chat.
Janek
+1
Jonesy
-1
Michael (You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before? Random chit-chat is de facto / de jur for any group of people who have known each other for years / decades. This is also the “users” list, not the “developers” list, e.g. users helping users, so this list will always have random chit-chat as that is the nature of “users” lists. Raging against the laws of the universe is all well and good, but seems kinda pointless...) ____________________________________________________
I agree with Micheal but I suggest creating an off topic mail list. If it hasn't already been done.
Kate
I doubt that such a list would help. The reason that topics degenerate into OT stuff is that participants' attention gets distracted from the original purpose of the thread, so they are unlikely to say to themselves 'am I still on topic?' If we were all that disciplined OT posts wouldn't happen in the first place.
Leslie --
Anno domini 2020 Wed, 28 Oct 16:03:49 -0500 J Leslie Turriff scripsit:
On 2020-10-27 13:25:36 BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020, Michael via tde-users wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020 11:28:09 am The Joneses via tde-users wrote:
Quoting Janek Stolarek jwstolarek@gmail.com:
What is your opinion?
I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of off-topic emails sent by regular list participants. I have been seriously considering unsubscribing from trinity-users because some people seem to treat the list as their private chat to discuss absolutely anything that comes to their mind. I wish the moderators were more strict and deleted all the TDE-unrelated chit-chat.
Janek
+1
Jonesy
-1
Michael (You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before? Random chit-chat is de facto / de jur for any group of people who have known each other for years / decades. This is also the “users” list, not the “developers” list, e.g. users helping users, so this list will always have random chit-chat as that is the nature of “users” lists. Raging against the laws of the universe is all well and good, but seems kinda pointless...) ____________________________________________________
I agree with Micheal but I suggest creating an off topic mail list. If it hasn't already been done.
Kate
I doubt that such a list would help. The reason that topics degenerate into OT stuff is that participants' attention gets distracted from the original purpose of the thread, so they are unlikely to say to themselves 'am I still on topic?' If we were all that disciplined OT posts wouldn't happen in the first place.
Leslie
What's the problem with that? When the world was younger there was even the "nazi-counter" - or, how many postings does it take till somebody makes a reference to some ugly figures from recent history. Maybe because politics tend to repeat history this call for polital correctness is needed?
Nik
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:14:04PM +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2020 Wed, 28 Oct 16:03:49 -0500 J Leslie Turriff scripsit:
I doubt that such a list would help. The reason that topics degenerate into OT stuff is that participants' attention gets distracted from the original purpose of the thread, so they are unlikely to say to themselves 'am I still on topic?' If we were all that disciplined OT posts wouldn't happen in the first place.
What's the problem with that?
When you signed up to this list, was it because you wanted somewhere to discuss issues related to TDE, or because you wanted a social club?
There's a million places, on-line and off-line, that you can go for a social club and a chin-wag. This, and the TDE-developers list, are probably the only place in the entire world for users to ask about TDE-related issues.
Nobody is saying that we have to run this mailing list like a totalitarian dictatorship, only that people please make a bit of an effort to keep the signal-to-noise ratio above 1. That still leaves plenty of opportunity for socialisation while still keeping the focus on TDE, which is the reason we're here.
Maybe because politics tend to repeat history this call for polital correctness is needed?
Keeping a technical mailing list on-topic is not "political correctness".
On Wednesday 28 October 2020 14:03:49 J Leslie Turriff wrote:
On 2020-10-27 13:25:36 BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020, Michael via tde-users wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020 11:28:09 am The Joneses via tde-users wrote:
Quoting Janek Stolarek jwstolarek@gmail.com:
What is your opinion?
I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of off-topic emails sent by regular list participants. I have been seriously considering unsubscribing from trinity-users because some people seem to treat the list as their private chat to discuss absolutely anything that comes to their mind. I wish the moderators were more strict and deleted all the TDE-unrelated chit-chat.
Janek
+1
Jonesy
-1
Michael (You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before? Random chit-chat is de facto / de jur for any group of people who have known each other for years / decades. This is also the “users” list, not the “developers” list, e.g. users helping users, so this list will always have random chit-chat as that is the nature of “users” lists. Raging against the laws of the universe is all well and good, but seems kinda pointless...) ____________________________________________________
I agree with Micheal but I suggest creating an off topic mail list. If it hasn't already been done.
Kate
I doubt that such a list would help. The reason that topics degenerate into OT stuff is that participants' attention gets distracted from the original purpose of the thread, so they are unlikely to say to themselves 'am I still on topic?' If we were all that disciplined OT posts wouldn't happen in the first place.
Leslie
exactly! +1
Bill
Against my better judgment, I'll join in.
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 13:02 (-0500), Michael via tde-users wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020 11:28:09 am The Joneses via tde-users wrote:
Quoting Janek Stolarek jwstolarek@gmail.com:
What is your opinion?
I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of off-topic emails sent by regular list participants. I have been seriously considering unsubscribing from trinity-users because some people seem to treat the list as their private chat to discuss absolutely anything that comes to their mind. I wish the moderators were more strict and deleted all the TDE-unrelated chit-chat.
Janek
+1
Jonesy
-1
Michael (You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before? Random chit-chat is de facto / de jur for any group of people who have known each other for years / decades. This is also the “users” list, not the “developers” list, e.g. users helping users, so this list will always have random chit-chat as that is the nature of “users” lists. Raging against the laws of the universe is all well and good, but seems kinda pointless...)
+1 to Janek.
And yes, I've worked in an office environment. And, having done so, I feel confident in saying that a mailing list is not an office environment. But even in a mailing list, a little chit-chat is one thing, but some days there is a LOT of chit-chat. For example, on September 15 I received 50 emails from users@trinitydesktop.org. On September 16 there were 61. If I recall correctly, much of that was chit chat. Perhaps these are two of the days Janek was referring to.
The question you want to ask yourself is this: am I so desperate for chit-chat that I am OK with alienating people who are on this list for issues directly related to using TDE?
Cheers. Jim
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 13:02 (-0500), Michael via tde-users wrote:
On Tuesday 27 October 2020 11:28:09 am The Joneses via tde-users wrote:
Quoting Janek Stolarek jwstolarek@gmail.com:
What is your opinion?
I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of off-topic emails sent by regular list participants. I have been seriously considering unsubscribing from trinity-users because some people seem to treat the list as their private chat to discuss absolutely anything that comes to their mind. I wish the moderators were more strict and deleted all the TDE-unrelated chit-chat.
Janek
+1
Jonesy
-1
Michael (You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before? Random chit-chat is de facto / de jur for any group of people who have known each other for years / decades. This is also the “users” list, not the “developers” list, e.g. users helping users, so this list will always have random chit-chat as that is the nature of “users” lists. Raging against the laws of the universe is all well and good, but seems kinda pointless...)
+1 to Janek.
And yes, I've worked in an office environment. And, having done so, I feel confident in saying that a mailing list is not an office environment. But even in a mailing list, a little chit-chat is one thing, but some days there is a LOT of chit-chat. For example, on September 15 I received 50 emails from users@trinitydesktop.org. On September 16 there were 61. If I recall correctly, much of that was chit chat. Perhaps these are two of the days Janek was referring to.
The question you want to ask yourself is this: am I so desperate for chit-chat that I am OK with alienating people who are on this list for issues directly related to using TDE?
Cheers. Jim ____________________________________________________ On Tuesday 27 October 2020, Jim via tde-users wrote: Against my better judgment, I'll join in.
Aye, me too.
Kate
You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before?
1. I haven't. I work at a university, which isn't exactly office. 2. Trinity mailing list is not an office environment. It's a place created for technical discussion for people using TDE and needing help with it.
I have no intention (or, in fact, possibility) of forcing my opinion here. If things continue the way they are at the moment I'll probably unsubscribe from the list because I don't feel it serves its intended purpose.
Janek
I have no intention (or, in fact, possibility) of forcing my opinion here. If things continue the way they are at the moment I'll probably unsubscribe from the list because I don't feel it serves its intended purpose.
Janek
I used to be on the lists years ago, but like you, I got tired of those endless chit-chats. I recently subscribed (again) to the TDE's mail lists because of the web interface provided by HyperKitty.
If you're really annoyed by meaningless chit-chats and spam (like I do), you can just manage the lists you wish to keep as email, the rest can be seen and answered online.
This solution is quite accommodating, I get to read the messages, I get to reply to those messages and my mail box can't get filled with spam or else.
Cheers.
Anno domini 2020 Wed, 28 Oct 15:03:14 +0100 gregory guy via tde-users scripsit:
I have no intention (or, in fact, possibility) of forcing my opinion here. If things continue the way they are at the moment I'll probably unsubscribe from the list because I don't feel it serves its intended purpose.
Janek
I used to be on the lists years ago, but like you, I got tired of those endless chit-chats. I recently subscribed (again) to the TDE's mail lists because of the web interface provided by HyperKitty.
If you're really annoyed by meaningless chit-chats and spam (like I do), you can just manage the lists you wish to keep as email, the rest can be seen and answered online.
This solution is quite accommodating, I get to read the messages, I get to reply to those messages and my mail box can't get filled with spam or else.
Sorry guys, but don't you set up email filters on your mail client? Kmail has that kind of thing built in, you can even write your own program and tell kmail to pipe mail through it.
Nik
Cheers. ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 15:34 (+0100), Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2020 Wed, 28 Oct 15:03:14 +0100 gregory guy via tde-users scripsit:
I have no intention (or, in fact, possibility) of forcing my opinion here. If things continue the way they are at the moment I'll probably unsubscribe from the list because I don't feel it serves its intended purpose.
Janek
I used to be on the lists years ago, but like you, I got tired of those endless chit-chats. I recently subscribed (again) to the TDE's mail lists because of the web interface provided by HyperKitty.
If you're really annoyed by meaningless chit-chats and spam (like I do), you can just manage the lists you wish to keep as email, the rest can be seen and answered online.
This solution is quite accommodating, I get to read the messages, I get to reply to those messages and my mail box can't get filled with spam or else.
Sorry guys, but don't you set up email filters on your mail client? Kmail has that kind of thing built in, you can even write your own program and tell kmail to pipe mail through it.
Are you suggesting they invent filters which decide whether a mail message for this list is spam/chitchat or actual TDE user information?
That would be interesting. If you have such a thing, please share it.
Maybe you're suggesting something else. Please elaborate.
Jim
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 11:46:09AM -0300, Jim via tde-users wrote:
Sorry guys, but don't you set up email filters on your mail client? Kmail has that kind of thing built in, you can even write your own program and tell kmail to pipe mail through it.
Are you suggesting they invent filters which decide whether a mail message for this list is spam/chitchat or actual TDE user information?
That would be interesting. If you have such a thing, please share it.
Classifying emails into "on-topic" versus "off-topic" (as opposed to "spam" versus "ham") would make an interesting project for anyone interested in Bayesian filters or machine learning.
Anno domini 2020 Thu, 29 Oct 03:09:27 +1100 Steven D'Aprano via tde-users scripsit:
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 11:46:09AM -0300, Jim via tde-users wrote:
Sorry guys, but don't you set up email filters on your mail client? Kmail has that kind of thing built in, you can even write your own program and tell kmail to pipe mail through it.
Are you suggesting they invent filters which decide whether a mail message for this list is spam/chitchat or actual TDE user information?
That would be interesting. If you have such a thing, please share it.
Classifying emails into "on-topic" versus "off-topic" (as opposed to "spam" versus "ham") would make an interesting project for anyone interested in Bayesian filters or machine learning.
Na, not so hard. Usually the first 4 or 5 mails in a thread are "on topic", the rest is "off topic". so just mark the first mail that's off topic as spam and move all responses to trash.
Nik
On Wednesday 28 October 2020 08:04:43 Janek Stolarek wrote:
You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before?
- I haven't. I work at a university, which isn't exactly office.
- Trinity mailing list is not an office environment. It's a place
created for technical discussion for people using TDE and needing help with it.
I have no intention (or, in fact, possibility) of forcing my opinion here. If things continue the way they are at the moment I'll probably unsubscribe from the list because I don't feel it serves its intended purpose.
Janek
While I, long since retired, and now living alone at 86 yo, (the wife is in a rest home under hospice care) usually enjoy the chit-chat until its way way off topic, One can make new friends that way. So I have no objection to the "community" atmosphere.
tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinity desktop.org
Cheers, Gene Heskett
On Wednesday 28 October 2020 07:41:17 Gene Heskett via tde-users wrote:
On Wednesday 28 October 2020 08:04:43 Janek Stolarek wrote:
You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before?
- I haven't. I work at a university, which isn't exactly office.
- Trinity mailing list is not an office environment. It's a place
created for technical discussion for people using TDE and needing help with it.
I have no intention (or, in fact, possibility) of forcing my opinion here. If things continue the way they are at the moment I'll probably unsubscribe from the list because I don't feel it serves its intended purpose.
Janek
While I, long since retired, and now living alone at 86 yo, (the wife is in a rest home under hospice care) usually enjoy the chit-chat until its way way off topic, One can make new friends that way. So I have no objection to the "community" atmosphere.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
And I believe that you've hit the crux of the matter, Gene.
Some people -- forgive my generalizations, but they're probably pretty close -- have jobs, and must deal with technical issues as part of their work. As such, anything that veers more than a few inches off-topic, or which is not strictly business, or which annoys them for other reasons: well, they must regard our chit-chat not only as a waste of their time, but indeed as obstacles to whatever they are trying to do.
Gene, being retired and living alone now, enjoys the same things that irritate others on the list. There are about half a dozen, maybe a dozen of us, who tend to get into these off-topic threads, which happen gradually at first, but then grow exponentially, like a snowball effect. I think it's that we get a few kicks out of one another, but not enough that we want to chat on a regular basis, nor to get too deeply into one another's lives.
And I myself probably spend more time on the list at present, but only because I still have yet to recover data from that hard drive, which contains about 40 years' of research, my entire digital library, field research, interviews, along with everything I ever wrote or published since about the year 1975. My plans for this winter (once I had got my new printer) were to hole up here like a total hermit, and bring my materials together into some kind of readable form. And then my hard drive crashed, and so far I've been stuck, and just spinning wheels.
If I could only recover my data, then would only rarely see me here, as I do have better things to do with my time; only I cannot do them just yet.
By the way, when one threatens (whether idly or "for real") to unsubscribe from the mailing list, then you are being passive-aggressive: if we won't play the game like you demand, you'll go home.
But I don't want things to be this way. I would really like everybody just to get along, and it seems to me that we spend more time discussing this same ongoing problem than we do in trying to solve it. If you aren't going to recommend a solution, then you are just kvetch-kvetch-kvetching again.
Don't worry, I won't live for ever; I may not even make it more than another year or two, unless things change dramatically for the better. And I do have something I want to accomplish yet before that time comes. If I didn't need to use a computer to finish this work, then I would never have gone online, never have joined a mailing list, and the world would be a better place
As it is, we are stuck with one another, and I suggest that we try to come up with reasonable, livable solutions, rather than complaining and wishing for more rules, more control my moderators, censoring or filtering or whatever other draconian measures some would envision, to try to control what they regard as chaos, and therefore, counterproductive or negative. (Some of us rather enjoy chaos.)
I believe that Slavek, among others, has expressed a wish that we maintain a friendly and open atmosphere in the mailing list. On the other hand, we all know that the conversations go so far off-topic that we might as well be a social network sometimes.
And this reminds me: I, and others, have mentioned something about creating a forum, where we could start threads on whatever we wanted, even (for example) archaeological discoveries in London's underground.
Then we could keep the mailing list pure and uncluttered by off-topic stuff, which, one hopes, might keep the strictly-business types content.
If anybody else has any actual recommendations or suggestions, then I think that now would be the time to come forward. Merely wishing for other people to shut up or quit the list, or threatening to quit the list oneself: this is not constructive or useful at all.
And by the way, we waste far more time on these discussions than we do in occasional chit-chat.
Bill
On Wednesday 28 October 2020 12:27:12 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Wednesday 28 October 2020 07:41:17 Gene Heskett via tde-users wrote:
On Wednesday 28 October 2020 08:04:43 Janek Stolarek wrote:
You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before?
- I haven't. I work at a university, which isn't exactly office.
- Trinity mailing list is not an office environment. It's a place
created for technical discussion for people using TDE and needing help with it.
I have no intention (or, in fact, possibility) of forcing my opinion here. If things continue the way they are at the moment I'll probably unsubscribe from the list because I don't feel it serves its intended purpose.
Janek
While I, long since retired, and now living alone at 86 yo, (the wife is in a rest home under hospice care) usually enjoy the chit-chat until its way way off topic, One can make new friends that way. So I have no objection to the "community" atmosphere.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
And I believe that you've hit the crux of the matter, Gene.
Some people -- forgive my generalizations, but they're probably pretty close -- have jobs, and must deal with technical issues as part of their work. As such, anything that veers more than a few inches off-topic, or which is not strictly business, or which annoys them for other reasons: well, they must regard our chit-chat not only as a waste of their time, but indeed as obstacles to whatever they are trying to do.
Gene, being retired and living alone now, enjoys the same things that irritate others on the list. There are about half a dozen, maybe a dozen of us, who tend to get into these off-topic threads, which happen gradually at first, but then grow exponentially, like a snowball effect. I think it's that we get a few kicks out of one another, but not enough that we want to chat on a regular basis, nor to get too deeply into one another's lives.
And I myself probably spend more time on the list at present, but only because I still have yet to recover data from that hard drive, which contains about 40 years' of research, my entire digital library, field research, interviews, along with everything I ever wrote or published since about the year 1975. My plans for this winter (once I had got my new printer) were to hole up here like a total hermit, and bring my materials together into some kind of readable form. And then my hard drive crashed, and so far I've been stuck, and just spinning wheels.
If I could only recover my data, then would only rarely see me here, as I do have better things to do with my time; only I cannot do them just yet.
By the way, when one threatens (whether idly or "for real") to unsubscribe from the mailing list, then you are being passive-aggressive: if we won't play the game like you demand, you'll go home.
But I don't want things to be this way. I would really like everybody just to get along, and it seems to me that we spend more time discussing this same ongoing problem than we do in trying to solve it. If you aren't going to recommend a solution, then you are just kvetch-kvetch-kvetching again.
Don't worry, I won't live for ever; I may not even make it more than another year or two, unless things change dramatically for the better. And I do have something I want to accomplish yet before that time comes. If I didn't need to use a computer to finish this work, then I would never have gone online, never have joined a mailing list, and the world would be a better place
As it is, we are stuck with one another, and I suggest that we try to come up with reasonable, livable solutions, rather than complaining and wishing for more rules, more control my moderators, censoring or filtering or whatever other draconian measures some would envision, to try to control what they regard as chaos, and therefore, counterproductive or negative. (Some of us rather enjoy chaos.)
I believe that Slavek, among others, has expressed a wish that we maintain a friendly and open atmosphere in the mailing list. On the other hand, we all know that the conversations go so far off-topic that we might as well be a social network sometimes.
And this reminds me: I, and others, have mentioned something about creating a forum, where we could start threads on whatever we wanted, even (for example) archaeological discoveries in London's underground.
Then we could keep the mailing list pure and uncluttered by off-topic stuff, which, one hopes, might keep the strictly-business types content.
If anybody else has any actual recommendations or suggestions, then I think that now would be the time to come forward. Merely wishing for other people to shut up or quit the list, or threatening to quit the list oneself: this is not constructive or useful at all.
And by the way, we waste far more time on these discussions than we do in occasional chit-chat.
Bill
I personally hate forums. Why? Because you HAVE to goto them, log in and in general mess around 4 or 5 minutes just to see the list, which on some forums like for the rpi's, several hundred screen fulls let alone search thru it to find something interesting, or even any reply's to your plea for help.
Email just drops in at 2 minute intervals courtesy of takeing the email suckage away from kmail with fetchmail running as a background daemon, then a wrapper script I wrote years ago that uses inotify-wait to tell kmail to go get the mail that procmail just dumped into /var/mail/ and it uses dbus to tell kmail to go get it. And a quick glance determines whether I answer, or hit the + key for the next one. So other than this typeing, my email is a 2 click operation, once to select the type of reply, and once to send it when I've rattled the current cage sufficiently. Computers should DO work FOR you, not make work. Way too many think jumping thru all those hoops in how it works, to me the challenge is to just make it work FOR you.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
On Wednesday 28 October 2020 10:16:24 Gene Heskett via tde-users wrote:
I personally hate forums. Why? Because you HAVE to goto them, log in and in general mess around 4 or 5 minutes just to see the list, which on some forums like for the rpi's, several hundred screen fulls let alone search thru it to find something interesting, or even any reply's to your plea for help.
Email just drops in at 2 minute intervals courtesy of takeing the email suckage away from kmail with fetchmail running as a background daemon, then a wrapper script I wrote years ago that uses inotify-wait to tell kmail to go get the mail that procmail just dumped into /var/mail/ and it uses dbus to tell kmail to go get it. And a quick glance determines whether I answer, or hit the + key for the next one. So other than this typeing, my email is a 2 click operation, once to select the type of reply, and once to send it when I've rattled the current cage sufficiently. Computers should DO work FOR you, not make work. Way too many think jumping thru all those hoops in how it works, to me the challenge is to just make it work FOR you.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
Yeah, don't get me wrong. Without computers, I could never have collected and organized so much material, and probably would never have been able to make connections between seemingly unrelated subjects. So that's a good thing, I have to concede.
On the other hand, if I had just kept all my materials in hard copy, then I would still have it somewhere; although I suppose it could have been destroyed in a fire or something. Also, I would need a warehouse in which to keep it all. It was just a strange bit of bad luck, that my hard drive and my flash drive both failed at the same time, and before I could make backups of this material (which I had saved for last, as I was redistributing this data, to keep like with like).
Anyway, it is what it is. Now I need to figure out how to move forward with my project.
Bill
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 03:45:59PM +0000, Janek Stolarek wrote:
What is your opinion?
I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of off-topic emails sent by regular list participants.
It is very true that the overall amount of spam on this list is minuscule, but its the fact that somebody went out of their way to resend it (perhaps in case some of us missed out on the fun of being annoyed by it the first time?) that boggles my brain :-)
As for off-topic emails, they don't bother me too greatly. (Maybe just a teeny bit.) When a new thread starts up, it's almost always at least peripherally related to TDE. Something to do with administrating a TDE system at least. It's not as if people are starting new threads to discuss what they ate for breakfast, or politics, or the latest finds from the archaelogical digs in London's new rail line.
(Although I'd read posts on that last one.)
True, the threads do tend to rapidly diverge and become off-topic discussions, but by that stage I have usually tuned out and I'm just deleting the posts unread as they come in.
I think that if this was a brand new group, not just a migration from one list to another, we could be a bit stricter about off-topic emails. But it's a small community, with not many regular participants. There is a lot of institutional knowledge held by the regulars and if the cost of keeping them around is to put up with a bit of off-topic discussion and their inability to trim pages and pages of quoted text onto the eighth or tenth generation "> > > > > > > > > > blah blah blah" then so be it.
Steven D'Aprano via tde-users wrote:
I think that if this was a brand new group, not just a migration from one list to another, we could be a bit stricter about off-topic emails. But it's a small community, with not many regular participants. There is a lot of institutional knowledge held by the regulars and if the cost of keeping them around is to put up with a bit of off-topic discussion and their inability to trim pages and pages of quoted text onto the eighth or tenth generation "> > > > > > > > > > blah blah blah" then so be it.
I also enjoy the OT freedom here and in other groups for the simple reason that discussing with people that have same interest feels better.
I usually read the headlines and follow the topic until I get bored - this may happend by the 10th reply by Gene :D. When I don't have time or I am not interested I just ignore and mark as read. There is also no way to enforce rules besides the rules that are established.
And regarding unsubscribing - everybody is free to subscribe and unsubscribe. There is no need to put it on the wall.
And what does working at the university has to do with the TDE user list, I also do not understand. I am honestly thankful that I do not work at a university - don't understand me wrong I have two degrees and most of my friends have also a degree but in the past 20+some years universities degraded to below zero in some extent.
@Janek - free your mind and enjoy the "stupidity" of day-to-day life. I think no one here uses facebook or similar. Sometimes I have the feeling I am of the younger generation being 47. You can enjoy and relax - it is much better than Netflix or whatever story you find out there. The thing I enjoy more are the life stories of people I know. I was considering extracting all the personal postings of Gene and putting them together for his next birthday, but I never have time for that :D. It is a great story he has to tell and I am thankful that no moderator censored that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@lists.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-users-help@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting
On Wednesday 28 October 2020 17:59:24 deloptes via tde-users wrote:
@Janek - free your mind and enjoy the "stupidity" of day-to-day life. I think no one here uses facebook or similar. Sometimes I have the feeling I am of the younger generation being 47.
You sir, compared to me, are. About 2 generations. :) But you have a rare attribute, a goodly dose of common sense.
You can enjoy and relax - it is much better than Netflix or whatever story you find out there. The thing I enjoy more are the life stories of people I know. I was considering extracting all the personal postings of Gene and putting them together for his next birthday, but I never have time for that :D.
Thank your favorite $Deity.
It is a great story he has to tell and I am thankful that no moderator censored that.
Thanks for the flowers, but the net in general hasn't heard more than 5% of my BTDT's. If I live long enough you'll probably read more. They are the education of Gene, who in the official record has an 8th grade education dated in the 1940's. 3rd time married 31 years in about a month, to a lady thats about done now, and has a B of A in music education, she wanted me to at least get a GED so I took it about 25 years ago. Didn't hear by the time I should have, so since the test givers $DayJob was at the P.O. I went in to check on it, and his question to me was "Why are you worried about it, you were just doing it for the exercise, weren't you?" I had to say yes. I did get it about a week later. I also have a degree from the University of Hard Knocks. One of the rules for that is that you can say you've made it on a high school education or less. More disqualifies you. And your claim to have made it must be proved by a $100 donation to the student loan fund at Alderson-Broaddus University in Philippi WV where Dee got her Music diploma from. And of coarse $35 a head for the graduation dinner and dance.
I quit school in '48 to go fix what were then these new-fangled things called "tv's". There's a hell of a lot of history between then and now.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:59:24PM +0100, deloptes via tde-users wrote:
And regarding unsubscribing - everybody is free to subscribe and unsubscribe. There is no need to put it on the wall.
How will we know how many potential TDE users we are driving away if they don't tell us?
And what does working at the university has to do with the TDE user list, I also do not understand.
The context was being told that this mailing list is like having a job: it's about the social chit-chat. (That doesn't sound much like the jobs I've had. I guess some people are lucky enough to get paid to stand around the water-cooler and gossip all day long, but most people have to actually work.)
@Janek - free your mind and enjoy the "stupidity" of day-to-day life.
You know nothing about Janek, and you're telling him how he needs to fix his life? Astonishing. I'm offended and that wasn't even aimed at me.
The thing I enjoy more are the life stories of people I know.
If you like that, you will LOVE Facebook and Twitter and other social media.
On Wednesday 28 October 2020 07:50:17 pm Steven D'Aprano via tde-users wrote:
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:59:24PM +0100, deloptes via tde-users wrote:
And what does working at the university has to do with the TDE user list, I also do not understand.
The context was being told that this mailing list is like having a job: it's about the social chit-chat. (That doesn't sound much like the jobs I've had. I guess some people are lucky enough to get paid to stand around the water-cooler and gossip all day long, but most people have to actually work.)
Ah, no. Since I was the originator of “the context” let me clarify what I thought was obvious...
On Tuesday 27 October 2020 01:02:17 pm Michael via tde-users wrote:
(You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before? Random chit-chat is de facto / de jur for any group of people who have known each other for years / decades.
Any human endeavor (mailing list, corporate job, university employment) that entails more than one person is subject to the universal law of humans, e.g. that humans are social creatures and will “chit-chat.” [1]
The use of “worked in an office environment” was a reference to any group of [non-blood related] people. “Chit-chat” is a reference to any communication between humans (and within this thread’s context a label of “non-productive” is probably appropriate).
Raging against the laws of the universe is all well and good, but seems kinda pointless...)
Any communication within a group of humans is going to annoy some sub-set of that group.[2] So, sorry, Janek, Jonesy, et al., there is very little that can be done to satisfy the annoyed (non-social) sub-set. Hence my comment, “seems kinda pointless.” Doubly pointless because now both groups are annoyed for no real reason.
I can offer at least one constructive option in addition to what was also offered prior [hyper-kitty(sp?) thing]:
If you can not stand the social aspects of this (or any other) list, then please do unsubscribe until such time that you have a question you want answered by the group. Subscribe, get your answer, then unsubscribe again.
Yes this creates a one-sided taking and not giving, but my opinion is that there are few of us ‘social’ members that will be upset by the lack of ‘help-parity,’ and it won’t effect the solving of anyone’s problems.
Hopefully this clarification helps both the social and non-social members of this group find a resolution they can implement for themselves that works to maximize their own happiness.
Best Regards All, Michael
[1] Sure, you can create artificial edge cases where you put two radically introverted people together, but let’s try not to split hairs?
[2] We’re talking group dynamics that can be quantified through appropriate scientific research, so again, let’s try not to split hairs? Anyone is free to visit their local collage library and ask a reference librarian for background materials to explain such.
The use of “worked in an office environment” was a reference to any group of [non-blood related] people. “Chit-chat” is a reference to any communication between humans (and within this thread’s context a label of “non-productive” is probably appropriate).
Well in that case, there are times and places that are appropriate for chit-chat and there are ones that are not. I have many times participated in meetings that were organized to discuss work-related matters (current research, teaching, etc.) but were hijacked by 2 or 3 people to talk about private issues unrelated to the reason why remaining 7-8 people have come for the meeting. These 2 or 3 people might have had fun talking but for the remaining majority of people this was unproductive and a waste of time. As was already said this list was created to give a fairly small community of TDE users a place to discuss TDE-related issues. The fact that several individuals have turned this list into their own private social media is regretable. The reason why I said I'll probably unsubscribe from the list if this goes on was not to somehow blackmail any of the said individuals - becuase I doubt they'll notice or care - but to make the list moderators aware that the community might be eroding because of the messy state of the list. I know at least several people on the list are happy with the way the list is at the moment. This is called a selection bias: ones that didn't like the list have silently left and no one noticed.
There was a suggestion earlier to use filters. That's what I do at the moment. I use a KMail filter to put all tde-users emails into a dedicated folder and mark them as read. My original intention was to look into the folder at my leisure and respond to those emails where I can help someone. But the sheer amount of off-topic email is often so huge that it's just too much effort trying to pick out the on-topic ones.
So, a humble request to list moderators: can we turn this list into a moderated one where every email needs to be approved and thus all off-topic emails can be rejected? Many lists on the internet work this way. Enforicing the discussion rules is a common practice, not some sort of mystical attempt to fight against the laws of the universe.
Janek
Anno domini 2020 Thu, 29 Oct 11:00:09 +0000 Janek Stolarek scripsit:
[..] So, a humble request to list moderators: can we turn this list into a moderated one where every email needs to be approved and thus all off-topic emails can be rejected? Many lists on the internet work this way. Enforicing the discussion rules is a common practice, not some sort of mystical attempt to fight against the laws of the universe.
Sure. Are you willing to do the censoring or should be done by someone else?
Janek ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
Anno domini 2020 Thu, 29 Oct 22:44:25 +1100 Steven D'Aprano via tde-users scripsit:
On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 12:06:26PM +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Sure. Are you willing to do the censoring or should be done by someone else?
The term you are looking for is list moderation.
I prefer censoring. Austria has it's fair amount of fashism and things don't get better by prettytalking.
On Thursday 29 October 2020 05:45:38 Janek Stolarek wrote:
Sure. Are you willing to do the censoring or should be done by someone else?
How funny. Whenever it is reminded that there are rules of discussion that need to be followed those who break it call it "censoring".
Janek
Exactly. The problem is always other people. "Other people are hell."
Bill
On Thursday 29 October 2020 04:00:09 Janek Stolarek wrote:
The use of “worked in an office environment” was a reference to any group of [non-blood related] people. “Chit-chat” is a reference to any communication between humans (and within this thread’s context a label of “non-productive” is probably appropriate).
Well in that case, there are times and places that are appropriate for chit-chat and there are ones that are not. I have many times participated in meetings that were organized to discuss work-related matters (current research, teaching, etc.) but were hijacked by 2 or 3 people to talk about private issues unrelated to the reason why remaining 7-8 people have come for the meeting. These 2 or 3 people might have had fun talking but for the remaining majority of people this was unproductive and a waste of time. As was already said this list was created to give a fairly small community of TDE users a place to discuss TDE-related issues. The fact that several individuals have turned this list into their own private social media is regretable. The reason why I said I'll probably unsubscribe from the list if this goes on was not to somehow blackmail any of the said individuals - becuase I doubt they'll notice or care - but to make the list moderators aware that the community might be eroding because of the messy state of the list. I know at least several people on the list are happy with the way the list is at the moment. This is called a selection bias: ones that didn't like the list have silently left and no one noticed.
There was a suggestion earlier to use filters. That's what I do at the moment. I use a KMail filter to put all tde-users emails into a dedicated folder and mark them as read. My original intention was to look into the folder at my leisure and respond to those emails where I can help someone. But the sheer amount of off-topic email is often so huge that it's just too much effort trying to pick out the on-topic ones.
So, a humble request to list moderators: can we turn this list into a moderated one where every email needs to be approved and thus all off-topic emails can be rejected? Many lists on the internet work this way. Enforicing the discussion rules is a common practice, not some sort of mystical attempt to fight against the laws of the universe.
Janek
I am responding in part to another user, Steven D'Aprano, because it bears on what I say here.
I was rather misparaphrased, and my thoughts were distorted into something quite different; probably not intentionally, but still a misrepresentation.
The TDE mailing list was not compared to a job; what I said (or at least meant to say) was that, for people who work in tech, or whose jobs involve dealing with such issues on a daily basis, or whose jobs keep them too busy for idle chit-chat, then our off-topic discussions must be incredibly annoying, and I do feel their pain.
If their inboxes are getting 50-75 emails a day, and in the TDE mailing list we have a long off-topic discussion of apfelstrudel and the kopfs who eat it, or, for example, "How many Nazis does it take to torture a kitten to death?" -- Well yes, I do understand: we are wasting your precious time.
The subtext was, Gene and I, for example, are retired from the rat-race, live alone, and don't mind off-topic distractions from strictly-business discussions of technical issues.
I don't know the age of others on the list, but I am guessing that most of the chit-chat comes from people who are rather older, who don't have any urgent or serious business; and all the kitten-killing Nazis who want to censor and control everything, and beg for moderators to save them from this madness and chaos, I believe we would find, are comparatively younger, and have jobs that claim their time.
While I am now semi-retired, I do remember how it was to work 60-70 hours a week, toiling away at very hard, gruelling, physical jobs which gradually destroyed my health. So I was not standing round an imaginary water-cooler. But before that, until about 1996, I worked either in universities, or with magazines and newspapers, and also as a free-lancer and a reader for publishers.
So I do get it; I can understand your point of view, and I do wish that there were some way that we could find or create, so that we could all just get along. We have suggested a forum, or a separate OT mailing list; I have also said that anybody is welcome to email me directly, or to use jabber/xmpp for private chat. But so far, none of these are generally accepted, and the only "reasonable" solutions, according to some, is for the moderators to take a heavier hand, to make stricter rules and enforce them without mercy.
Please spare me any more of this discussion; it is the thread that never dies, but periodically revives, again and again. It is all vanity and a vexation of the spirit.
Bill
P.S. I don't seriously believe that anybody here is a Nazi, or even that they hate kittens, but I wanted to be sure that I worked them in.
On Thursday 29 October 2020 05:50:04 Janek Stolarek wrote:
We have suggested a forum, or a separate OT mailing list
Having a separate list (cafe@trinitydesktop.org ?) for completely off-topic discussion is a brilliant idea.
Janek
Whatever works. I am open to ideas.
I do sincerely want everybody to be happy and get along, and I can appreciate your point of view. There is no sense in our arguing about this, when we could be proposing possible solutions.
If it the group as a whole should concur that a kitten must be sacrificed on rare occasions -- maybe for the Winter Solstice? -- then, so be it.
Bill
My 2 cents below
On 29/10/2020 14:01, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Whatever works. I am open to ideas.
I do sincerely want everybody to be happy and get along, and I can appreciate your point of view. There is no sense in our arguing about this, when we could be proposing possible solutions.
Often I was very annoyed by the amount of chit-chat on this list too. But - for me its not really the pure chit-chat, its the fact that a lot of you do not take their time to strip down the replies (Kate - do you hear me ;-)! There is no problem for me to realize that someone only responds with a +1 as long as I can see it directly in the mail's preview window. I could simply stay on the delete button for all those similar mails in a row. But if I have to scroll down page over page to find out that the only response is a +1 I'd like to shoot the messenger ;-) and would like to switch the behavior of the list to top-posting.
So please, please trim down your answers to the necessary amount as long as bottom-posting is the policy of this list.
regards Gerhard
On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 02:51:00PM +0100, Gerhard Zintel wrote:
So please, please trim down your answers to the necessary amount as long as bottom-posting is the policy of this list.
Seconded! Please trim! Kmail makes it easy by default: select the text you want to remove, and press the backspace or delete key.
But bottom posting is not the policy of this list. The list policy is to **avoid top posting**, with either bottom or *inline* posting preferred.
See the "Mailing List Etiquette" section here:
http://www.trinitydesktop.org/mailinglist.php
Personally, I think that the bottom posting without trimming is even ruder than top-posting. You still have pages and pages of historical posts duplicated in the message, but instead of it being underneath your reply where nobody needs to look at it, bottom-posting forces people to scroll through it looking for comments.
The worst case I have ever seen, in an email thread I cared enough about to keep reading, was (by memory) *forty-seven* screen fulls of quoted text for a single one-line comment at the end. Not on this list though. I worked out at the time that, had it been printed out on paper, that would have been something like thirty full A4 pages of quoted text, with the deepest quote something like 15 or 16 levels:
> > > > > > > > > blah blah blah
(One should trim inline posting too. It's very rare for any quote more than 4 or 5 levels deep to still be relevent in the discussion, people can always look at the web archive if the need the full history of the thread.)
Janek Stolarek wrote:
There was a suggestion earlier to use filters. That's what I do at the moment. I use a KMail filter to put all tde-users emails into a dedicated folder and mark them as read. My original intention was to look into the folder at my leisure and respond to those emails where I can help someone. But the sheer amount of off-topic email is often so huge that it's just too much effort trying to pick out the on-topic ones.
I use kontact with knode and when I am not interested in a topic I just press CTRL+D Janek, everything is voluntary - no one is forcing you to do anything. Please write to the EU Commission if you need more regulations, they do this all the time (Sorry for the joke, but I couldn't stand it starting may be another OT).
And BTW your OT mail here is even bigger and less interesting than the others.
regards
--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@lists.pearsoncomputing.net For additional commands, e-mail: trinity-users-help@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/ Please remember not to top-post: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/mailing_lists/#top-posting
On Wednesday 28 October 2020 20:50:17 Steven D'Aprano via tde-users wrote:
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:59:24PM +0100, deloptes via tde-users wrote:
And regarding unsubscribing - everybody is free to subscribe and unsubscribe. There is no need to put it on the wall.
How will we know how many potential TDE users we are driving away if they don't tell us?
And what does working at the university has to do with the TDE user list, I also do not understand.
The context was being told that this mailing list is like having a job: it's about the social chit-chat. (That doesn't sound much like the jobs I've had. I guess some people are lucky enough to get paid to stand around the water-cooler and gossip all day long, but most people have to actually work.)
@Janek - free your mind and enjoy the "stupidity" of day-to-day life.
You know nothing about Janek, and you're telling him how he needs to fix his life? Astonishing. I'm offended and that wasn't even aimed at me.
The thing I enjoy more are the life stories of people I know.
If you like that, you will LOVE Facebook and Twitter and other social media.
Ahh contrare, I'm fussy about who I share private details with, and I don't touch them two AH's with a 50 foot glass pole.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
On Tuesday 27 of October 2020 16:21:59 Slávek Banko via tde-users wrote:
On Saturday 24 of October 2020 21:13:41 Michael via tde-users wrote:
S'Okay, we all know spam exists, and any list is going to get some...
I'm also pretty sure the mods of our list delete the spammer's account immediately.
So? Please? Can we agree to just delete what does get through?
Best All, Michael ____________________________________________________
Hi all,
I analyzed the incoming spam from the first one that appeared. All these cases had one thing in common: they were not sent by e-mail, but via the Hyperkitty web interface.
This means that the spammer made an effort for him to join the conference, confirm the verification email for the subscription, log in to the web interface and take advantage of the fact that with Hyperkitty it is possible to use the mailing list in a way like a web forum.
For this reason, the post was first processed by Mailman, who creates emails for individual participants. Only then, these emails were processed by the mail server, which has an integrated spam filter. Therefore, these emails had the advantage of spam ratings, as they were created locally.
The question is how to deal with it? Each of these emails was sent from a different address - different participants => it will not be effective to block a specific participants here. And since spams sent in this way are currently very rare cases, it seems too restrictive to prevent the use of Hyperkitty for posting to mailing lists.
I suggest waiting to see if sending spam in this way will continue to be negligible or increase. And decide according to how it will continue. I believe that the necessary input effort is so large that it is unlikely to bring the expected result for spammers. That's why I hope that spam doesn't have to increase.
What is your opinion?
Cheers
Hi all,
I will respond to this email from the beginning of the thread, because the thread has run into several branches and I do not want to waste my or your time replying to individual branches. I'm sorry it's a long mail again...
1) It is obvious that the volume of spam here is negligible, so at present it is not effective to take some complicated measures to prevent it.
This would be enough if I want to close the original topic of this thread...
2) ...but "something crazy" was born in the original thread. I dare say that perhaps no previous "chit-chat" has grown to such a huge dimension as this thread.
As has been said, I would like the mailing list to be in a good friendly mood. If I remember correctly, there was no thread that was chit-chat from the beginning. Usually the personal level came there in connection with the problem solved, which was related to TDE. And personally, it didn't usually seem to me that this communication had grown into an unacceptable level. Definitely not like this thread.
I think we should accept that we are different personalities - some like to talk more, others less. Some write only technical information about the problem to be solved, some write more extensively - they add related background information, which may contain a personal story.
Of course, it is appropriate for participants to keep in mind that subsequent communication unrelated to the problem or to the TDE does not grow to an unacceptable level. But it didn't seem to me that the problem here was so big that we had to look for technical solutions to limit communication strictly to technical.
3) Until now, I considered the judgment of the individual participants to be sufficient. Or to call for an end to the thread that has surpassed the acceptable level. I can't imagine how technical measures could work.
For example, here it doesn't seem to be effective to set a ban for everyone who joins some chit-chat => should we ban everyone who joins this thread? Probably not ;)
There was a call to change the mailing list to a fully moderated to approve each post. But how could it work? Who will act as moderator? Me, Michele, anyone else?
Remember that we dedicate our private time to TDE. We're often busy with other tasks, and when we make time for TDE, we have a lot of tasks we need to do - working on the source code, migrating and improving services to keep the project going well... and it doesn't seem practical, to waste time approving every single post to the ML.
4) Here was a proposal to create a separate ML or a web forum.
Of course, creating another ML is possible, but I can't imagine how it could work in real life. Would a discussion that starts on 'users' move to 'cafe' ML at some point? I doubt it could work well. I think one of the ML would die sooner or later and it will be like now.
Regarding web forums, I have it the same as Gene mentioned - I consider it a waste of time to actively go to web forums and actively search for new discussions and new posts to which I can respond. I understand that it is now considered "modern", but for me it seems completely ineffective.
Note: In KMail, there is an option for the thread to choose Watch / Ignore. Although I've been using KMail every day for many years, I've never tried it. Has anyone tried how it works?
Cheers
On Thursday 29 October 2020 12:19:11 Slávek Banko via tde-users wrote: [...]
Note: In KMail, there is an option for the thread to choose Watch / Ignore. Although I've been using KMail every day for many years, I've never tried it. Has anyone tried how it works?
Where (in what menu) is that? I just looked and can't find it.
Cheers
Cheers, Gene Heskett
On Thursday 29 of October 2020 17:40:53 Gene Heskett via tde-users wrote:
On Thursday 29 October 2020 12:19:11 Slávek Banko via tde-users wrote: [...]
Note: In KMail, there is an option for the thread to choose Watch / Ignore. Although I've been using KMail every day for many years, I've never tried it. Has anyone tried how it works?
Where (in what menu) is that? I just looked and can't find it.
Cheers
Cheers, Gene Heskett
If you have sorting by thread enabled in the folder, then right-click on one of the messages in the thread - there is a Mark Thread submenu.
Cheers
On Thursday 29 October 2020 12:46:17 Slávek Banko via tde-users wrote:
On Thursday 29 of October 2020 17:40:53 Gene Heskett via tde-users
wrote:
On Thursday 29 October 2020 12:19:11 Slávek Banko via tde-users wrote: [...]
Note: In KMail, there is an option for the thread to choose Watch / Ignore. Although I've been using KMail every day for many years, I've never tried it. Has anyone tried how it works?
Where (in what menu) is that? I just looked and can't find it.
Cheers
Cheers, Gene Heskett
If you have sorting by thread enabled in the folder, then right-click on one of the messages in the thread - there is a Mark Thread submenu.
Cheers
Ah, I've seen that once or twice, but I usually just move the whole thread to the next session of sa-learn spam. And I don't sort by threads very often as that often moves the original message well out of view. I much prefer to handle msgs in order of arrival so thats my default setting.
Thank you Slávek.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
On Thursday 29 of October 2020 20:11:57 Gene Heskett via tde-users wrote:
If you have sorting by thread enabled in the folder, then right-click on one of the messages in the thread - there is a Mark Thread submenu.
Cheers
Ah, I've seen that once or twice, but I usually just move the whole thread to the next session of sa-learn spam. And I don't sort by threads very often as that often moves the original message well out of view. I much prefer to handle msgs in order of arrival so thats my default setting.
Thank you Slávek.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
I have mailing lists sorted into a separate folder (directly on the server by sieve rules) and for such a folder I then use a combination of sorting into threads + order of arrival.
Cheers
On Thursday 29 October 2020, Slávek Banko via tde-users wrote:
On Thursday 29 of October 2020 20:11:57 Gene Heskett via tde-users wrote:
If you have sorting by thread enabled in the folder, then right-click on one of the messages in the thread - there is a Mark Thread submenu.
Cheers
Ah, I've seen that once or twice, but I usually just move the whole thread to the next session of sa-learn spam. And I don't sort by threads very often as that often moves the original message well out of view. I much prefer to handle msgs in order of arrival so thats my default setting.
Thank you Slávek.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
I have mailing lists sorted into a separate folder (directly on the server by sieve rules) and for such a folder I then use a combination of sorting into threads + order of arrival.
Cheers
I use filters to catch "OT" and put them into an OT directory in kmail. I can them go over them at will (or delete).
No problems
Cheers back,
Kate
On 2020-10-29 18:09:37 BorgLabs - Kate Draven wrote:
I use filters to catch "OT" and put them into an OT directory in kmail. I can them go over them at will (or delete).
No problems
Cheers back,
Kate
Which works, but just for posts where someone has had the foresight to insert [OT] into the subject line.
Leslie --
-
BorgLabs - Kate Draven -
BorgLabs - Kate Draven -
deloptes
-
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
Gene Heskett -
Gerhard Zintel -
gregory guy -
J Leslie Turriff -
Janek Stolarek -
Jim -
Michael -
Slávek Banko -
Steven D'Aprano -
The Joneses -
William Morder -
William Morder via trinity-users