On Saturday 24 October 2020 12:13:41 Michael via tde-users wrote: NO! We can never agree! Otherwise, some people will have nothing to do. Bill

On Saturday 24 October 2020 12:13:41 Michael via tde-users wrote: NO! We can never agree! Otherwise, some people will have nothing to do. ;-) Bill

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On Saturday 24 of October 2020 21:13:41 Michael via tde-users wrote: Hi all, I analyzed the incoming spam from the first one that appeared. All these cases had one thing in common: they were not sent by e-mail, but via the Hyperkitty web interface. This means that the spammer made an effort for him to join the conference, confirm the verification email for the subscription, log in to the web interface and take advantage of the fact that with Hyperkitty it is possible to use the mailing list in a way like a web forum. For this reason, the post was first processed by Mailman, who creates emails for individual participants. Only then, these emails were processed by the mail server, which has an integrated spam filter. Therefore, these emails had the advantage of spam ratings, as they were created locally. The question is how to deal with it? Each of these emails was sent from a different address - different participants => it will not be effective to block a specific participants here. And since spams sent in this way are currently very rare cases, it seems too restrictive to prevent the use of Hyperkitty for posting to mailing lists. I suggest waiting to see if sending spam in this way will continue to be negligible or increase. And decide according to how it will continue. I believe that the necessary input effort is so large that it is unlikely to bring the expected result for spammers. That's why I hope that spam doesn't have to increase. What is your opinion? Cheers

I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of off-topic emails sent by regular list participants. I have been seriously considering unsubscribing from trinity-users because some people seem to treat the list as their private chat to discuss absolutely anything that comes to their mind. I wish the moderators were more strict and deleted all the TDE-unrelated chit-chat. Janek

On Tuesday 27 October 2020 11:28:09 am The Joneses via tde-users wrote: -1 Michael (You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before? Random chit-chat is de facto / de jur for any group of people who have known each other for years / decades. This is also the “users” list, not the “developers” list, e.g. users helping users, so this list will always have random chit-chat as that is the nature of “users” lists. Raging against the laws of the universe is all well and good, but seems kinda pointless...) ____________________________________________________

Quoting BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users <users(a)trinitydesktop.org>rg>: It's been done! It's called FaceBook, Twitter, or any number of other vapid "social media" forums. ____________________________________________________

On Tuesday 27 October 2020 12:13:02 BorgLabs - Kate Draven wrote: Funny, but I can appreciate, and identify with, all the different points of view expressed. I, too, find it annoying to read somebody else's drivel, especially when I already more or less disagree with their world view, or mailing list etiquette, or whatever other pretext we can invent to complain about other people. Note that it is always other people who are the problem, never ourselves. kvetch kvetch kvetch Myself, I just wish that we could all get along here, but I dont' see how that is possible, so long as some of us are still breathing. Why not just try to let go, and trust that we'll come up with some better way to handle our differences? Life is too short to waste our energy on this stuff. Let's move on already. Bill

On Tuesday 27 October 2020, Michael via tde-users wrote: I agree with Micheal but I suggest creating an off topic mail list. If it hasn't already been done. Kate

Anno domini 2020 Wed, 28 Oct 16:03:49 -0500 J Leslie Turriff scripsit:

What's the problem with that?

Maybe because politics tend to repeat history this call for polital correctness is needed?

On Tuesday 27 October 2020 11:28:09 am The Joneses via tde-users wrote: > Quoting Janek Stolarek <jwstolarek(a)gmail.com>om>: >>> What is your opinion?

>> I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of >> off-topic emails sent by >> regular list participants. I have been seriously considering >> unsubscribing from trinity-users >> because some people seem to treat the list as their private chat to >> discuss absolutely anything >> that comes to their mind. I wish the moderators were more strict and >> deleted all the >> TDE-unrelated chit-chat.

>> Janek

> +1

> Jonesy

-1

Michael (You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before? Random chit-chat is de facto / de jur for any group of people who have known each other for years / decades. This is also the “users” list, not the “developers” list, e.g. users helping users, so this list will always have random chit-chat as that is the nature of “users” lists. Raging against the laws of the universe is all well and good, but seems kinda pointless...)

You have me curious at this point, have neither of you worked in an office environment before?

I used to be on the lists years ago, but like you, I got tired of those endless chit-chats. I recently subscribed (again) to the TDE's mail lists because of the web interface provided by HyperKitty. If you're really annoyed by meaningless chit-chats and spam (like I do), you can just manage the lists you wish to keep as email, the rest can be seen and answered online. This solution is quite accommodating, I get to read the messages, I get to reply to those messages and my mail box can't get filled with spam or else.

Cheers. ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users(a)trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt…

Are you suggesting they invent filters which decide whether a mail message for this list is spam/chitchat or actual TDE user information? That would be interesting. If you have such a thing, please share it.

1. I haven't. I work at a university, which isn't exactly office. 2. Trinity mailing list is not an office environment. It's a place created for technical discussion for people using TDE and needing help with it. I have no intention (or, in fact, possibility) of forcing my opinion here. If things continue the way they are at the moment I'll probably unsubscribe from the list because I don't feel it serves its intended purpose. Janek

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On Wednesday 28 October 2020 07:41:17 Gene Heskett via tde-users wrote: And I believe that you've hit the crux of the matter, Gene. Some people -- forgive my generalizations, but they're probably pretty close -- have jobs, and must deal with technical issues as part of their work. As such, anything that veers more than a few inches off-topic, or which is not strictly business, or which annoys them for other reasons: well, they must regard our chit-chat not only as a waste of their time, but indeed as obstacles to whatever they are trying to do. Gene, being retired and living alone now, enjoys the same things that irritate others on the list. There are about half a dozen, maybe a dozen of us, who tend to get into these off-topic threads, which happen gradually at first, but then grow exponentially, like a snowball effect. I think it's that we get a few kicks out of one another, but not enough that we want to chat on a regular basis, nor to get too deeply into one another's lives. And I myself probably spend more time on the list at present, but only because I still have yet to recover data from that hard drive, which contains about 40 years' of research, my entire digital library, field research, interviews, along with everything I ever wrote or published since about the year 1975. My plans for this winter (once I had got my new printer) were to hole up here like a total hermit, and bring my materials together into some kind of readable form. And then my hard drive crashed, and so far I've been stuck, and just spinning wheels. If I could only recover my data, then would only rarely see me here, as I do have better things to do with my time; only I cannot do them just yet. By the way, when one threatens (whether idly or "for real") to unsubscribe from the mailing list, then you are being passive-aggressive: if we won't play the game like you demand, you'll go home. But I don't want things to be this way. I would really like everybody just to get along, and it seems to me that we spend more time discussing this same ongoing problem than we do in trying to solve it. If you aren't going to recommend a solution, then you are just kvetch-kvetch-kvetching again. Don't worry, I won't live for ever; I may not even make it more than another year or two, unless things change dramatically for the better. And I do have something I want to accomplish yet before that time comes. If I didn't need to use a computer to finish this work, then I would never have gone online, never have joined a mailing list, and the world would be a better place As it is, we are stuck with one another, and I suggest that we try to come up with reasonable, livable solutions, rather than complaining and wishing for more rules, more control my moderators, censoring or filtering or whatever other draconian measures some would envision, to try to control what they regard as chaos, and therefore, counterproductive or negative. (Some of us rather enjoy chaos.) I believe that Slavek, among others, has expressed a wish that we maintain a friendly and open atmosphere in the mailing list. On the other hand, we all know that the conversations go so far off-topic that we might as well be a social network sometimes. And this reminds me: I, and others, have mentioned something about creating a forum, where we could start threads on whatever we wanted, even (for example) archaeological discoveries in London's underground. Then we could keep the mailing list pure and uncluttered by off-topic stuff, which, one hopes, might keep the strictly-business types content. If anybody else has any actual recommendations or suggestions, then I think that now would be the time to come forward. Merely wishing for other people to shut up or quit the list, or threatening to quit the list oneself: this is not constructive or useful at all. And by the way, we waste far more time on these discussions than we do in occasional chit-chat. Bill

> What is your opinion?

I think the amount of spam is negligible compared to the amount of off-topic emails sent by regular list participants.

I think that if this was a brand new group, not just a migration from one list to another, we could be a bit stricter about off-topic emails. But it's a small community, with not many regular participants. There is a lot of institutional knowledge held by the regulars and if the cost of keeping them around is to put up with a bit of off-topic discussion and their inability to trim pages and pages of quoted text onto the eighth or tenth generation "> > > > > > > > > > blah blah blah" then so be it.

And regarding unsubscribing - everybody is free to subscribe and unsubscribe. There is no need to put it on the wall.

And what does working at the university has to do with the TDE user list, I also do not understand.

@Janek - free your mind and enjoy the "stupidity" of day-to-day life.

The thing I enjoy more are the life stories of people I know.

The use of “worked in an office environment” was a reference to any group of [non-blood related] people. “Chit-chat” is a reference to any communication between humans (and within this thread’s context a label of “non-productive” is probably appropriate).

Sure. Are you willing to do the censoring or should be done by someone else?

Sure. Are you willing to do the censoring or should be done by someone else?

Well in that case, there are times and places that are appropriate for chit-chat and there are ones that are not. I have many times participated in meetings that were organized to discuss work-related matters (current research, teaching, etc.) but were hijacked by 2 or 3 people to talk about private issues unrelated to the reason why remaining 7-8 people have come for the meeting. These 2 or 3 people might have had fun talking but for the remaining majority of people this was unproductive and a waste of time. As was already said this list was created to give a fairly small community of TDE users a place to discuss TDE-related issues. The fact that several individuals have turned this list into their own private social media is regretable. The reason why I said I'll probably unsubscribe from the list if this goes on was not to somehow blackmail any of the said individuals - becuase I doubt they'll notice or care - but to make the list moderators aware that the community might be eroding because of the messy state of the list. I know at least several people on the list are happy with the way the list is at the moment. This is called a selection bias: ones that didn't like the list have silently left and no one noticed. There was a suggestion earlier to use filters. That's what I do at the moment. I use a KMail filter to put all tde-users emails into a dedicated folder and mark them as read. My original intention was to look into the folder at my leisure and respond to those emails where I can help someone. But the sheer amount of off-topic email is often so huge that it's just too much effort trying to pick out the on-topic ones. So, a humble request to list moderators: can we turn this list into a moderated one where every email needs to be approved and thus all off-topic emails can be rejected? Many lists on the internet work this way. Enforicing the discussion rules is a common practice, not some sort of mystical attempt to fight against the laws of the universe. Janek

Having a separate list (cafe(a)trinitydesktop.org ?) for completely off-topic discussion is a brilliant idea. Janek

So please, please trim down your answers to the necessary amount as long as bottom-posting is the policy of this list.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > blah blah blah

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:59:24PM +0100, deloptes via tde-users wrote: How will we know how many potential TDE users we are driving away if they don't tell us? The context was being told that this mailing list is like having a job: it's about the social chit-chat. (That doesn't sound much like the jobs I've had. I guess some people are lucky enough to get paid to stand around the water-cooler and gossip all day long, but most people have to actually work.) You know nothing about Janek, and you're telling him how he needs to fix his life? Astonishing. I'm offended and that wasn't even aimed at me. If you like that, you will LOVE Facebook and Twitter and other social media.

Note: In KMail, there is an option for the thread to choose Watch / Ignore. Although I've been using KMail every day for many years, I've never tried it. Has anyone tried how it works?

Cheers

On Thursday 29 of October 2020 17:40:53 Gene Heskett via tde-users

If you have sorting by thread enabled in the folder, then right-click on one of the messages in the thread - there is a Mark Thread submenu. Cheers

On Thursday 29 of October 2020 20:11:57 Gene Heskett via tde-users wrote: I have mailing lists sorted into a separate folder (directly on the server by sieve rules) and for such a folder I then use a combination of sorting into threads + order of arrival. Cheers