I like wearing polo shirts (they make T-shirts too actually) with something about Linux and I have found good, embroidered shirts from a Hungarian maker (he does the embroidering, not the shirts actually). I'm not putting the address here because I don't want that you believe I would be making business, I am just a customer there.
The point is he asked for suggestions, so I suggested TDE shirts - and he answered "I was a big fan of KDE3, so Trinity is close to my heart. I'm ready to make Trinity Desktop shirts, if the project can help me to promote them on the official website. Without the reach of the users, we won't send a piece for sure."
Well, so the question is to know if there would be any interrest and if "promoting" shirts on the website would be desired/possible. I don't suppose it would, but I just told him i'd ask.
Thierry
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On Tuesday 21 April 2020 09:26:20 am Thierry de Coulon wrote:
I like wearing polo shirts (they make T-shirts too actually) with something about Linux and I have found good, embroidered shirts from a Hungarian maker (he does the embroidering, not the shirts actually). I'm not putting the address here because I don't want that you believe I would be making business, I am just a customer there.
The point is he asked for suggestions, so I suggested TDE shirts - and he answered "I was a big fan of KDE3, so Trinity is close to my heart. I'm ready to make Trinity Desktop shirts, if the project can help me to promote them on the official website. Without the reach of the users, we won't send a piece for sure."
Well, so the question is to know if there would be any interrest and if "promoting" shirts on the website would be desired/possible. I don't suppose it would, but I just told him i'd ask.
Hi Thierry,
Can't answer you about the website (although I can't see why you personally couldn't add a wiki page, just make it ‘vendor’ neutral, e.g. these people sell TDE goods and give x% of sales to TDE, blah, blah).
From a business standpoint these are the things I suspect need to be answered first:
- What does the product look like? - What’s the price structure? - What percentage does TDE get off the sale? - How long has the business been in operation? - What’s the background (reputation really) of the business?
From a personal standpoint I’d want to know your experience with the polo shirts:
- How many have your bought from him? - How long do they last? - Need some pics!
Would I buy?
Yes? Everyone varies on what they deem reasonable, I tend to buy new (with tags) Polo by Ralph Lauren shirts in the 20 - 25 USD range, their t-shirts in the 7 - 10 range. Which takes a while to find. But Ralph Lauren has pretty good quality so they tend to last 5 to 10 years, so I only need to buy 3 or 4 shirts per year...
Best, Michael
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Hi Guys,
On Tuesday 21 April 2020 16:48:02 Michael wrote:
On Tuesday 21 April 2020 09:26:20 am Thierry de Coulon wrote:
I like wearing polo shirts (they make T-shirts too actually) with something about Linux and I have found good, embroidered shirts from a Hungarian maker (he does the embroidering, not the shirts actually). I'm not putting the address here because I don't want that you believe I would be making business, I am just a customer there.
The point is he asked for suggestions, so I suggested TDE shirts
- and he answered "I was a big fan of KDE3, so Trinity is close
to my heart. I'm ready to make Trinity Desktop shirts, if the project can help me to promote them on the official website. Without the reach of the users, we won't send a piece for sure."
Well, so the question is to know if there would be any interrest and if "promoting" shirts on the website would be desired/possible. I don't suppose it would, but I just told him i'd ask.
Hi Thierry,
Can't answer you about the website (although I can't see why you personally couldn't add a wiki page, just make it ‘vendor’ neutral, e.g. these people sell TDE goods and give x% of sales to TDE, blah, blah).
From a business standpoint these are the things I suspect need to be answered first:
- What does the product look like?
- What’s the price structure?
- What percentage does TDE get off the sale?
- How long has the business been in operation?
- What’s the background (reputation really) of the business?
From a personal standpoint I’d want to know your experience with the polo shirts:
- How many have your bought from him?
- How long do they last?
- Need some pics!
Would I buy?
Yes? Everyone varies on what they deem reasonable, I tend to buy new (with tags) Polo by Ralph Lauren shirts in the 20 - 25 USD range, their t-shirts in the 7 - 10 range. Which takes a while to find. But Ralph Lauren has pretty good quality so they tend to last 5 to 10 years, so I only need to buy 3 or 4 shirts per year...
Best, Michael
I need a couple of new Polo shirts ! My Fisher island ones are on their last legs. Not bad for nearly 20 years ! And they still fit me. Only too happy to support TDE...
On Tuesday 21 April 2020 17.48:02 Michael wrote:
Hi Thierry,
From a business standpoint these are the things I suspect need to be answered first:
- What does the product look like?
I can give the address of the website if no one feels it's unwanted publicity
- What’s the price structure?
This is Europe and he sells the polo shits for €33 (seems $36 or so), T-shirts are €29
- What percentage does TDE get off the sale?
He did not say anything about a pecentage (but then I did not either discuss any business...). He writes on his website: "For developpers and Linux distributions (...) Donation to your project. A fixed amount of money in Euros or in US dollar from the price of every product sold with your logo. If you can't accept money donations, we can solve this too."
- How long has the business been in operation?
Seems 18 years (10 years as an inzernational business) - from their website.
- What’s the background (reputation really) of the business?
This I can't answer. Did not read anything bad though.
From a personal standpoint I’d want to know your experience with the polo shirts:
- How many have your bought from him?
Half a dozen so far
- How long do they last?
Still look almost new after a year.
- Need some pics!
As I said, I have no problem giving the address, I just don't want to use the list as a publicity mean.
Thierry
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Thierry de Coulon wrote:
I can give the address of the website if no one feels it's unwanted publicity
- What’s the price structure?
This is Europe and he sells the polo shits for €33 (seems $36 or so), T-shirts are €29
I was thinking of crowd funding and getting all of them at once. 29 looks like single unit. if you have more to order could be even less and with crowd funding you can get a finite number of the shirts
I would also buy depending on the type of payment (don't have paypal or similar)
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Anno domini 2020 Tue, 21 Apr 20:13:38 +0200 deloptes scripsit:
Thierry de Coulon wrote:
I can give the address of the website if no one feels it's unwanted publicity
- What’s the price structure?
This is Europe and he sells the polo shits for €33 (seems $36 or so), T-shirts are €29
I was thinking of crowd funding and getting all of them at once. 29 looks like single unit. if you have more to order could be even less and with crowd funding you can get a finite number of the shirts
T-shirts come for < 5.- per piece, but you need a market for it. Can't remember it beeing worth the trouble if you don't want to go big.
Nik
I would also buy depending on the type of payment (don't have paypal or similar)
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Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
T-shirts come for < 5.- per piece, but you need a market for it. Can't remember it beeing worth the trouble if you don't want to go big.
the imprinting (I think this is the term) in small quantities cost more and the quality is also important. I wouldn't buy something in this price range, also if possibly not made in China or Bangladesh or similar, but this might be too much.
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On Tuesday 21 April 2020 19:25:48 deloptes wrote:
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
T-shirts come for < 5.- per piece, but you need a market for it. Can't remember it beeing worth the trouble if you don't want to go big.
the imprinting (I think this is the term) in small quantities cost more and the quality is also important. I wouldn't buy something in this price range, also if possibly not made in China or Bangladesh or similar, but this might be too much.
Yes those prices are way over the top ! There is a local guy that buys white "T's, Polo and Sweat shirts" direct from India and puts your choice of logo on them. He will do custom logos as well. You can have a custom logo "T" shirt for £5. I don't know what he charges for the silk screen.
On Tuesday 21 April 2020 11:25:48 deloptes wrote:
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
T-shirts come for < 5.- per piece, but you need a market for it. Can't remember it beeing worth the trouble if you don't want to go big.
the imprinting (I think this is the term) in small quantities cost more and the quality is also important. I wouldn't buy something in this price range, also if possibly not made in China or Bangladesh or similar, but this might be too much.
In US, we may run into such a dilemma.
If made in a sweatshot (by indentured workers, i.e., slaves, or children, or people kept in cages and starving), it will only end in bad publicity, and TDE would not look good in the press.
If not made in such a place - but rather made by workers who are treated right and paid enough, who work in decent conditions - they will be exorbitantly expensive, and nobody can afford them.
I buy most of my stuff as second-hand shops, anyway, so if I see some TDE polo shirts or t-shirts after a couple more years, then I will definitely buy them, if they are in my size. (By the way, I am built like a football player, although hardly in the same shape that I was 40 years ago. What are the sizes available? Looking for XXXL in US sizes ...)
Bill
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On 04/21/2020 09:26 AM, Thierry de Coulon wrote:
I like wearing polo shirts (they make T-shirts too actually) with something about Linux and I have found good, embroidered shirts from a Hungarian maker (he does the embroidering, not the shirts actually). I'm not putting the address here because I don't want that you believe I would be making business, I am just a customer there.
The point is he asked for suggestions, so I suggested TDE shirts - and he answered "I was a big fan of KDE3, so Trinity is close to my heart. I'm ready to make Trinity Desktop shirts, if the project can help me to promote them on the official website. Without the reach of the users, we won't send a piece for sure."
Well, so the question is to know if there would be any interrest and if "promoting" shirts on the website would be desired/possible. I don't suppose it would, but I just told him i'd ask.
Thierry
Seems like a good idea. If the maker will make a quality tee or polo (Samba has done this for fundraising for 20 years) There should be something fair that can be arranged. (long-sleeve tees were always a hit...)
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 10.57:14 David C. Rankin wrote:
Seems like a good idea. If the maker will make a quality tee or polo (Samba has done this for fundraising for 20 years) There should be something fair that can be arranged. (long-sleeve tees were always a hit...)
Well the question is: who's in charge? I can hardly discuss this with Gabor Kum for TDE, being only a TDE user. Should I ask him to make a proposal, and then who's supposed to receive this proposal?
Thierry
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Anno domini 2020 Wed, 22 Apr 12:34:26 +0200 Thierry de Coulon scripsit:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 10.57:14 David C. Rankin wrote:
Seems like a good idea. If the maker will make a quality tee or polo (Samba has done this for fundraising for 20 years) There should be something fair that can be arranged. (long-sleeve tees were always a hit...)
Well the question is: who's in charge? I can hardly discuss this with Gabor Kum for TDE, being only a TDE user. Should I ask him to make a proposal, and then who's supposed to receive this proposal?
Thierry
Well, why not? Point is, it's Open Source, and I most dislike spreadshirt et al. IMO nobody here is willing to take the job of creating shirts. A link on the TDE homepage would be nice, but that's about it.
Nik
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On Wednesday 22 April 2020 12.43:52 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
A link on the TDE homepage would be nice, but that's about it.
Nik
Obviously (and as I expected) this does not wake a big interest and I don't really have time to invest (I don't know the man and I am not part to his business) so let's drop it.
If anyone is interrested in the site's address ask me (or search for Gabor Kum).
Thierry
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On Wednesday 22 April 2020 05:50:09 Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 12.43:52 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
A link on the TDE homepage would be nice, but that's about it.
Nik
Obviously (and as I expected) this does not wake a big interest and I don't really have time to invest (I don't know the man and I am not part to his business) so let's drop it.
If anyone is interrested in the site's address ask me (or search for Gabor Kum).
Thierry
It certainly got a lot of comments, even though the matter does not (as you say) awaken any great interest.
I think the question here is *how* anybody could take charge, even if they were so inclined. When I want to donate money to TDE, I run into the same problem. I hear that it can be done through PayPal (which I try to avoid), but that is about all I know.
So if anybody were to make arrangements, how would we know that any of the funds were to go to TDE? From what I can see, those persons would be going into business for themselves, rather than helping TDE, because nobody knows how to get in touch with somebody who has authority over the financial side of Trinity. Or, if such persons do exist, there is no contact information that I can find anywhere.
Bill
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On Wednesday 22 April 2020 09:57:57 am William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 05:50:09 Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 12.43:52 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
A link on the TDE homepage would be nice
If anyone is interrested in the site's address ask me (or search for Gabor Kum).
It certainly got a lot of comments, even though the matter does not (as you say) awaken any great interest.
I think the question here is *how* anybody could take charge, even if they were so inclined. When I want to donate money to TDE, I run into the same problem. I hear that it can be done through PayPal (which I try to avoid), but that is about all I know.
So if anybody were to make arrangements, how would we know that any of the funds were to go to TDE? From what I can see, those persons would be going into business for themselves, rather than helping TDE, because nobody knows how to get in touch with somebody who has authority over the financial side of Trinity. Or, if such persons do exist, there is no contact information that I can find anywhere.
I've the same issues as Bill. I've found this:
"The TDE project was founded by and is still led by Timothy Pearson. Timothy is an experienced and skilled software developer and was the KDE 3.x coordinator of previous Kubuntu releases."
So my best GUESS is that Timothy is the one who gets donations. But... The last time I offered website/hosting/mirroring support I didn’t get a reply [1]. The last time (most likely ever time actually) I donated I got nothing back as an acknowledgment. Both are really off putting.
The last time I can find donations in TDE ‘news’ is 2012 (twice), but even for the $2,241.50 [2] collected there is no ‘who donated list.’ ‘who donated lists’ being one of the biggest ways to get businesses to donate, as they get a link back and positive public relations.
MX Linux seemed at least interested in having TDE bundled in their releases alongside Xfce, but who on this side would coordinate that? Timothy?
Like most here I’d like TDE to have a wider exposure and acceptance, but Timothy himself seems to be the biggest limiting factors to that.
What to do? Got no idea, it seems to be up to Timothy?
Best All, Michael
[1] I own: Internet Design Alliance, http://inet-design.com/
Services include: Fully Managed Dedicated Servers Fully Managed Drupal Hosting FailOver Backup and High Availability Solutions DNS clustering
So it’s not like I don’t routinely have ‘spare capacity’ to donate. So getting nothing as a reply did leave me a bit ‘butthurt.’
[2] https://www.trinitydesktop.org/newsentry.php?entry=2012.05.01
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On Wednesday 22 April 2020 08:54:47 Michael wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 09:57:57 am William Morder via trinity-users
wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 05:50:09 Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 12.43:52 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
A link on the TDE homepage would be nice
If anyone is interrested in the site's address ask me (or search for Gabor Kum).
It certainly got a lot of comments, even though the matter does not (as you say) awaken any great interest.
I think the question here is *how* anybody could take charge, even if they were so inclined. When I want to donate money to TDE, I run into the same problem. I hear that it can be done through PayPal (which I try to avoid), but that is about all I know.
So if anybody were to make arrangements, how would we know that any of the funds were to go to TDE? From what I can see, those persons would be going into business for themselves, rather than helping TDE, because nobody knows how to get in touch with somebody who has authority over the financial side of Trinity. Or, if such persons do exist, there is no contact information that I can find anywhere.
I've the same issues as Bill. I've found this:
"The TDE project was founded by and is still led by Timothy Pearson. Timothy is an experienced and skilled software developer and was the KDE 3.x coordinator of previous Kubuntu releases."
So my best GUESS is that Timothy is the one who gets donations. But... The last time I offered website/hosting/mirroring support I didn’t get a reply [1]. The last time (most likely ever time actually) I donated I got nothing back as an acknowledgment. Both are really off putting.
The last time I can find donations in TDE ‘news’ is 2012 (twice), but even for the $2,241.50 [2] collected there is no ‘who donated list.’ ‘who donated lists’ being one of the biggest ways to get businesses to donate, as they get a link back and positive public relations.
MX Linux seemed at least interested in having TDE bundled in their releases alongside Xfce, but who on this side would coordinate that? Timothy?
Like most here I’d like TDE to have a wider exposure and acceptance, but Timothy himself seems to be the biggest limiting factors to that.
What to do? Got no idea, it seems to be up to Timothy?
Best All, Michael
[1] I own: Internet Design Alliance, http://inet-design.com/
Services include: Fully Managed Dedicated Servers Fully Managed Drupal Hosting FailOver Backup and High Availability Solutions DNS clustering
So it’s not like I don’t routinely have ‘spare capacity’ to donate. So getting nothing as a reply did leave me a bit ‘butthurt.’
[2] https://www.trinitydesktop.org/newsentry.php?entry=2012.05.01
Mr Pearson's avoidance of publicity or even contact with others seems more like the behavior of a celebrity (film or music star) who is constantly overwhelmed with unwanted attention. And I could understand that; for whatever reason, one may not wish to interact with others. (We all have our reasons, now and then, and nobody avoids other people more than myself.)
But, I keep thinking, why not delegate those tasks to others who are more sociable? I believe that the one thing we all want is for TDE to keep going, because other desktops, by comparison, are crap; either they are crap, or they are total crap, or they are the sort of ripe stinking festering CRAP that gives other ordinary crap a bad name. Even the best of the competition doesn't come close.
Somehow or other, TDE keeps going, and development keeps moving forward; so the bills get paid, servers keep running, the website stays online. Yet I feel rather like my using Trinity is an exercise in faith, and we must all keep hoping and praying that it does not come to an end, even though there is nothing that we can do to help.
Anyway, if somebody could point me toward some links to donate, I had promised awhile back to make a donation. I was planning to do this around about my birthday, which was the end of February; and then all this Covid-19 stuff suddenly got in the way. But now I am thinking it is time to make good.
Bill
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On Wednesday 22 April 2020 11:11:27 am William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 08:54:47 Michael wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 09:57:57 am William Morder via trinity-users
wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 05:50:09 Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 12.43:52 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
A link on the TDE homepage would be nice
If anyone is interrested in the site's address ask me (or search for Gabor Kum).
It certainly got a lot of comments, even though the matter does not (as you say) awaken any great interest.
I think the question here is *how* anybody could take charge, even if they were so inclined. When I want to donate money to TDE, I run into the same problem. I hear that it can be done through PayPal (which I try to avoid), but that is about all I know.
So if anybody were to make arrangements, how would we know that any of the funds were to go to TDE? From what I can see, those persons would be going into business for themselves, rather than helping TDE, because nobody knows how to get in touch with somebody who has authority over the financial side of Trinity. Or, if such persons do exist, there is no contact information that I can find anywhere.
I've the same issues as Bill. I've found this:
"The TDE project was founded by and is still led by Timothy Pearson. Timothy is an experienced and skilled software developer and was the KDE 3.x coordinator of previous Kubuntu releases."
So my best GUESS is that Timothy is the one who gets donations. But... The last time I offered website/hosting/mirroring support I didn’t get a reply [1]. The last time (most likely ever time actually) I donated I got nothing back as an acknowledgment. Both are really off putting.
The last time I can find donations in TDE ‘news’ is 2012 (twice), but even for the $2,241.50 [2] collected there is no ‘who donated list.’ ‘who donated lists’ being one of the biggest ways to get businesses to donate, as they get a link back and positive public relations.
MX Linux seemed at least interested in having TDE bundled in their releases alongside Xfce, but who on this side would coordinate that? Timothy?
Like most here I’d like TDE to have a wider exposure and acceptance, but Timothy himself seems to be the biggest limiting factors to that.
What to do? Got no idea, it seems to be up to Timothy?
Best All, Michael
[1] I own: Internet Design Alliance, http://inet-design.com/
Services include: Fully Managed Dedicated Servers Fully Managed Drupal Hosting FailOver Backup and High Availability Solutions DNS clustering
So it’s not like I don’t routinely have ‘spare capacity’ to donate. So getting nothing as a reply did leave me a bit ‘butthurt.’
[2] https://www.trinitydesktop.org/newsentry.php?entry=2012.05.01
Mr Pearson's avoidance of publicity or even contact with others seems more like the behavior of a celebrity (film or music star) who is constantly overwhelmed with unwanted attention. And I could understand that; for whatever reason, one may not wish to interact with others. (We all have our reasons, now and then, and nobody avoids other people more than myself.)
But, I keep thinking, why not delegate those tasks to others who are more sociable? I believe that the one thing we all want is for TDE to keep going, because other desktops, by comparison, are crap; either they are crap, or they are total crap, or they are the sort of ripe stinking festering CRAP that gives other ordinary crap a bad name. Even the best of the competition doesn't come close.
;) I've been told 'crap' is my favorite word, the above was highly amusing
Somehow or other, TDE keeps going, and development keeps moving forward; so the bills get paid, servers keep running, the website stays online. Yet I feel rather like my using Trinity is an exercise in faith, and we must all keep hoping and praying that it does not come to an end, even though there is nothing that we can do to help.
Anyway, if somebody could point me toward some links to donate, I had promised awhile back to make a donation. I was planning to do this around about my birthday, which was the end of February; and then all this Covid-19 stuff suddenly got in the way. But now I am thinking it is time to make good.
https://www.trinitydesktop.org/donate.php
I tried it, it works :) Copy/Pasta messages:
Donate to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net Purpose: Trinity Desktop Development and Hosting Costs TDEWEB001
You've donated $10.00 USD to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net We'll send you back to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net in a few seconds. Return to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net
Thank you for your donation to the Trinity Desktop project! Your funding will help to create an even better TDE experience into the future.
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On Wednesday 22 April 2020 09:42:24 Michael wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 11:11:27 am William Morder via trinity-users
wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 08:54:47 Michael wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 09:57:57 am William Morder via trinity-users
wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 05:50:09 Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 12.43:52 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
A link on the TDE homepage would be nice
If anyone is interrested in the site's address ask me (or search for Gabor Kum).
It certainly got a lot of comments, even though the matter does not (as you say) awaken any great interest.
I think the question here is *how* anybody could take charge, even if they were so inclined. When I want to donate money to TDE, I run into the same problem. I hear that it can be done through PayPal (which I try to avoid), but that is about all I know.
So if anybody were to make arrangements, how would we know that any of the funds were to go to TDE? From what I can see, those persons would be going into business for themselves, rather than helping TDE, because nobody knows how to get in touch with somebody who has authority over the financial side of Trinity. Or, if such persons do exist, there is no contact information that I can find anywhere.
I've the same issues as Bill. I've found this:
"The TDE project was founded by and is still led by Timothy Pearson. Timothy is an experienced and skilled software developer and was the KDE 3.x coordinator of previous Kubuntu releases."
So my best GUESS is that Timothy is the one who gets donations. But... The last time I offered website/hosting/mirroring support I didn’t get a reply [1]. The last time (most likely ever time actually) I donated I got nothing back as an acknowledgment. Both are really off putting.
The last time I can find donations in TDE ‘news’ is 2012 (twice), but even for the $2,241.50 [2] collected there is no ‘who donated list.’ ‘who donated lists’ being one of the biggest ways to get businesses to donate, as they get a link back and positive public relations.
MX Linux seemed at least interested in having TDE bundled in their releases alongside Xfce, but who on this side would coordinate that? Timothy?
Like most here I’d like TDE to have a wider exposure and acceptance, but Timothy himself seems to be the biggest limiting factors to that.
What to do? Got no idea, it seems to be up to Timothy?
Best All, Michael
[1] I own: Internet Design Alliance, http://inet-design.com/
Services include: Fully Managed Dedicated Servers Fully Managed Drupal Hosting FailOver Backup and High Availability Solutions DNS clustering
So it’s not like I don’t routinely have ‘spare capacity’ to donate. So getting nothing as a reply did leave me a bit ‘butthurt.’
[2] https://www.trinitydesktop.org/newsentry.php?entry=2012.05.01
Mr Pearson's avoidance of publicity or even contact with others seems more like the behavior of a celebrity (film or music star) who is constantly overwhelmed with unwanted attention. And I could understand that; for whatever reason, one may not wish to interact with others. (We all have our reasons, now and then, and nobody avoids other people more than myself.)
But, I keep thinking, why not delegate those tasks to others who are more sociable? I believe that the one thing we all want is for TDE to keep going, because other desktops, by comparison, are crap; either they are crap, or they are total crap, or they are the sort of ripe stinking festering CRAP that gives other ordinary crap a bad name. Even the best of the competition doesn't come close.
;) I've been told 'crap' is my favorite word, the above was highly amusing
Somehow or other, TDE keeps going, and development keeps moving forward; so the bills get paid, servers keep running, the website stays online. Yet I feel rather like my using Trinity is an exercise in faith, and we must all keep hoping and praying that it does not come to an end, even though there is nothing that we can do to help.
Anyway, if somebody could point me toward some links to donate, I had promised awhile back to make a donation. I was planning to do this around about my birthday, which was the end of February; and then all this Covid-19 stuff suddenly got in the way. But now I am thinking it is time to make good.
https://www.trinitydesktop.org/donate.php
I tried it, it works :) Copy/Pasta messages:
Donate to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net Purpose: Trinity Desktop Development and Hosting Costs TDEWEB001
You've donated $10.00 USD to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net We'll send you back to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net in a few seconds. Return to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net
Thank you for your donation to the Trinity Desktop project! Your funding will help to create an even better TDE experience into the future.
HUH.
And now that I've checked out that link ...
I've been here before, but as I say, I have bad luck with PayPal (always get rejected when I try to use it, no explanations); but I will give it another go.
Or did you do bitcoin? It is about time I learned to use it, as the whole world's economy is falling apart around us, and that might come in handy.
Bill
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On Wednesday 22 April 2020 01:20:43 pm William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 09:42:24 Michael wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 11:11:27 am William Morder via trinity-users
wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 08:54:47 Michael wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 09:57:57 am William Morder via trinity-users
wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 05:50:09 Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 12.43:52 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > A link on the TDE homepage would be nice
If anyone is interrested in the site's address ask me (or search for Gabor Kum).
It certainly got a lot of comments, even though the matter does not (as you say) awaken any great interest.
I think the question here is *how* anybody could take charge, even if they were so inclined. When I want to donate money to TDE, I run into the same problem. I hear that it can be done through PayPal (which I try to avoid), but that is about all I know.
So if anybody were to make arrangements, how would we know that any of the funds were to go to TDE? From what I can see, those persons would be going into business for themselves, rather than helping TDE, because nobody knows how to get in touch with somebody who has authority over the financial side of Trinity. Or, if such persons do exist, there is no contact information that I can find anywhere.
I've the same issues as Bill. I've found this:
"The TDE project was founded by and is still led by Timothy Pearson. Timothy is an experienced and skilled software developer and was the KDE 3.x coordinator of previous Kubuntu releases."
So my best GUESS is that Timothy is the one who gets donations. But... The last time I offered website/hosting/mirroring support I didn’t get a reply [1]. The last time (most likely ever time actually) I donated I got nothing back as an acknowledgment. Both are really off putting.
The last time I can find donations in TDE ‘news’ is 2012 (twice), but even for the $2,241.50 [2] collected there is no ‘who donated list.’ ‘who donated lists’ being one of the biggest ways to get businesses to donate, as they get a link back and positive public relations.
MX Linux seemed at least interested in having TDE bundled in their releases alongside Xfce, but who on this side would coordinate that? Timothy?
Like most here I’d like TDE to have a wider exposure and acceptance, but Timothy himself seems to be the biggest limiting factors to that.
What to do? Got no idea, it seems to be up to Timothy?
Best All, Michael
[1] I own: Internet Design Alliance, http://inet-design.com/
Services include: Fully Managed Dedicated Servers Fully Managed Drupal Hosting FailOver Backup and High Availability Solutions DNS clustering
So it’s not like I don’t routinely have ‘spare capacity’ to donate. So getting nothing as a reply did leave me a bit ‘butthurt.’
[2] https://www.trinitydesktop.org/newsentry.php?entry=2012.05.01
Mr Pearson's avoidance of publicity or even contact with others seems more like the behavior of a celebrity (film or music star) who is constantly overwhelmed with unwanted attention. And I could understand that; for whatever reason, one may not wish to interact with others. (We all have our reasons, now and then, and nobody avoids other people more than myself.)
But, I keep thinking, why not delegate those tasks to others who are more sociable? I believe that the one thing we all want is for TDE to keep going, because other desktops, by comparison, are crap; either they are crap, or they are total crap, or they are the sort of ripe stinking festering CRAP that gives other ordinary crap a bad name. Even the best of the competition doesn't come close.
;) I've been told 'crap' is my favorite word, the above was highly amusing
Somehow or other, TDE keeps going, and development keeps moving forward; so the bills get paid, servers keep running, the website stays online. Yet I feel rather like my using Trinity is an exercise in faith, and we must all keep hoping and praying that it does not come to an end, even though there is nothing that we can do to help.
Anyway, if somebody could point me toward some links to donate, I had promised awhile back to make a donation. I was planning to do this around about my birthday, which was the end of February; and then all this Covid-19 stuff suddenly got in the way. But now I am thinking it is time to make good.
https://www.trinitydesktop.org/donate.php
I tried it, it works :) Copy/Pasta messages:
Donate to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net Purpose: Trinity Desktop Development and Hosting Costs TDEWEB001
You've donated $10.00 USD to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net We'll send you back to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net in a few seconds. Return to kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net
Thank you for your donation to the Trinity Desktop project! Your funding will help to create an even better TDE experience into the future.
HUH.
And now that I've checked out that link ...
I've been here before, but as I say, I have bad luck with PayPal (always get rejected when I try to use it, no explanations); but I will give it another go.
Or did you do bitcoin? It is about time I learned to use it, as the whole world's economy is falling apart around us, and that might come in handy.
Bill
Did PayPal. But I have a PayPal business account (where PayPal knows my IP/Browser), so it was just a sign-in and click type event.
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On Wednesday 22 April 2020 10:57:57 William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 05:50:09 Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 12.43:52 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
A link on the TDE homepage would be nice, but that's about it.
Nik
Obviously (and as I expected) this does not wake a big interest and I don't really have time to invest (I don't know the man and I am not part to his business) so let's drop it.
If anyone is interrested in the site's address ask me (or search for Gabor Kum).
Thierry
It certainly got a lot of comments, even though the matter does not (as you say) awaken any great interest.
I think the question here is *how* anybody could take charge, even if they were so inclined. When I want to donate money to TDE, I run into the same problem. I hear that it can be done through PayPal (which I try to avoid), but that is about all I know.
So if anybody were to make arrangements, how would we know that any of the funds were to go to TDE? From what I can see, those persons would be going into business for themselves, rather than helping TDE, because nobody knows how to get in touch with somebody who has authority over the financial side of Trinity. Or, if such persons do exist, there is no contact information that I can find anywhere.
Bill
The last time I tried to donate, paypal refused the address, I asked for clarification here and never rx'd a reply.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
On 04/22/2020 05:34 AM, Thierry de Coulon wrote:
Well the question is: who's in charge? I can hardly discuss this with Gabor Kum for TDE, being only a TDE user. Should I ask him to make a proposal, and then who's supposed to receive this proposal?
What we have done in the past is everybody kick in money to Tim and he has taken care of what was needed from a funding standpoint for TDE (2012-2015/16 timeframe - much of the actual funding had just been Tim to that point). I understand Tim is taking a well earned break. The t-shirt issue sounded like an opportunity to augment or supplement whatever funding is needed for the miscellaneous expenses TDE has.
Since that time I also see that TDE has garnered a few sites and sponsors that help with mirroring, etc.. which was what the bulk of what the original funds were used for (as well as hardware). Between, Kate, Slavek, and one or two others I still recognize, there should be a way to either get direction from Tim or make a decision on how and what is needed going forward.
I haven't checked if TDE has any formal organization behind it that was created in the past few years, but if not, doing a quick non-profit may make sense. That would at least provide continuity as key folks come and go given the demands they have in the working world. And would provide a bit of structure to coordinate where effort is needed and to help offload the folks that now wear all the hats at once.
So "Who's on first?", I don't know at this point, I've had just a peripheral presence since I stopped building for Arch, but I can provide this as food-for-thought as something that would provide a long-term answer to that question as well as a way to perhaps streamline and coordinate all of the various efforts that are required for TDE to be TDE.
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 07:46:27 pm David C. Rankin wrote:
I haven't checked if TDE has any formal organization behind it that was created in the past few years, but if not, doing a quick non-profit may make sense.
Probably the best way with Tim 'owning' the non-profit.
But, non-profit's rules are fairly odd/strict when it comes to making money. AFAIR non-profits can't easily sell stuff, so the non-profit itself making and selling t-shirts is probably a no-go. Not that there aren't ways around that (usually something like a commercial entity donates % of profits per sale of non-profit's licensed product).
I’ve dealt with a bumper sticker place in Austin before that did the above, once this gets worked out I wouldn't mind contacting them to see if they still do that.
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On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 21:46:20 -0500 Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 07:46:27 pm David C. Rankin wrote:
I haven't checked if TDE has any formal organization behind it that was created in the past few years, but if not, doing a quick non-profit may make sense.
Probably the best way with Tim 'owning' the non-profit.
In theory, we should probably incorporate, but this introduces accounting and tax-reporting requirements we haven't had to deal with up to this point. Still, we should move away from any single person being solely responsible for managing funds and resources—that's why we have a problem in the first place.
But, non-profit's rules are fairly odd/strict when it comes to making money. AFAIR non-profits can't easily sell stuff, so the non-profit itself making and selling t-shirts is probably a no-go. Not that there aren't ways around that (usually something like a commercial entity donates % of profits per sale of non-profit's licensed product).
I’ve dealt with a bumper sticker place in Austin before that did the above, once this gets worked out I wouldn't mind contacting them to see if they still do that.
One thing that has to be worked through if we set up a not-for-profit is *where* to do it. While a lot of TDE's users are American, a lot of the developers seem to be European (judging from email addresses and style of English usage). There are likely to be advantages and disadvantages to setting up in each jurisdiction. And the US is not a single jurisdiction: each state is different.
Selling TDE swag in return for funds could be fine in many places. That's one of the things we'd need to find out. (Also, "not-for-profit" != "charity"—the latter have stricter rules to follow, but TDE would not be one.)
So, what would the money the Trinity Desktop Environment Project, Inc. acquires be paid out for?
-hosting -having someone do the accounting and make required corporate reports -publicity and outreach? -salary for one or more full-time devs, if we were to grow that much? -other?
And sources of income would be . . .
-donations -sales of swag (shirts, coffee mugs, bumper stickers, mouse pads . . .) -technical support of TDE in larger deployments, à la Red Hat? -paid feature requests?
And the next step would be research of the rules governing not-for-profits in the jurisdictions of people actually willing to do the *work* associated with setting up such a corporation (filing documents, paying fees, maybe an hour or two with a lawyer if necessary). I found the government how-to handbook for my jurisdiction with a single search on duckduckgo. Not all governments have this information on-line, but many should have.
E. Liddell
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Hi all!
Anno domini 2020 Thu, 23 Apr 09:59:00 -0400 E. Liddell scripsit:
On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 21:46:20 -0500 Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 07:46:27 pm David C. Rankin wrote:
I haven't checked if TDE has any formal organization behind it that was created in the past few years, but if not, doing a quick non-profit may make sense.
Probably the best way with Tim 'owning' the non-profit.
In theory, we should probably incorporate, but this introduces accounting and tax-reporting requirements we haven't had to deal with up to this point. Still, we should move away from any single person being solely responsible for managing funds and resources—that's why we have a problem in the first place.
But, non-profit's rules are fairly odd/strict when it comes to making money. AFAIR non-profits can't easily sell stuff, so the non-profit itself making and selling t-shirts is probably a no-go. Not that there aren't ways around that (usually something like a commercial entity donates % of profits per sale of non-profit's licensed product).
I’ve dealt with a bumper sticker place in Austin before that did the above, once this gets worked out I wouldn't mind contacting them to see if they still do that.
One thing that has to be worked through if we set up a not-for-profit is *where* to do it. While a lot of TDE's users are American, a lot of the developers seem to be European (judging from email addresses and style of English usage). There are likely to be advantages and disadvantages to setting up in each jurisdiction. And the US is not a single jurisdiction: each state is different.
Selling TDE swag in return for funds could be fine in many places. That's one of the things we'd need to find out. (Also, "not-for-profit" != "charity"—the latter have stricter rules to follow, but TDE would not be one.)
From my experience: US jurisdiction is something you should stay away as far you can. I can only speak for the Austrian situation: Funding a NGO here is simple, it's called "gemeinnütziger Verein". No VAT, simple bookkeeping, just needs to statutes and entry into "Vereinsregister". Fondraising withtshirts et al. is no problem, as is fondraising for EU money. The "Verein" needs 3 members at minimum, normally 6 members (the archchancellor, the minister of propaganda, the treasureor and their vices).
So, what would the money the Trinity Desktop Environment Project, Inc. acquires be paid out for?
-hosting -having someone do the accounting and make required corporate reports -publicity and outreach? -salary for one or more full-time devs, if we were to grow that much? -other?
- Fond raising - PR work ...
And sources of income would be . . .
-donations -sales of swag (shirts, coffee mugs, bumper stickers, mouse pads . . .) -technical support of TDE in larger deployments, à la Red Hat? -paid feature requests?
- EU project funds - local project funds
And the next step would be research of the rules governing not-for-profits in the jurisdictions of people actually willing to do the *work* associated with setting up such a corporation (filing documents, paying fees, maybe an hour or two with a lawyer if necessary). I found the government how-to handbook for my jurisdiction with a single search on duckduckgo. Not all governments have this information on-line, but many should have.
Done that already for :) statistically every Austrian is member of at least 2 associations.
Nik
E. Liddell
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On Thursday 23 April 2020 09:32:36 am Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2020 Thu, 23 Apr 09:59:00 -0400 E. Liddell scripsit:
On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 21:46:20 -0500 Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:
Probably the best way with Tim 'owning' the non-profit.
In theory, we should probably incorporate, but this introduces accounting and tax-reporting requirements we haven't had to deal with up to this point. Still, we should move away from any single person being solely responsible for managing funds and resources—that's why we have a problem in the first place.
Unless Timothy (Tim?, what’s he like to be called by?) completely declines he should be the titular head, even if he never does anything else with TDE. Others elected/appointed can ‘do the work’ so to speak. Okay, my opinion, otherwise it’d be insanely rude to Timothy :(
There are likely to be advantages and disadvantages to setting up in each jurisdiction. And the US is not a single jurisdiction: each state is different.
From my experience: US jurisdiction is something you should stay away as far you can.
I’m a US citizen and I’d heavily recommend to not do [TDE-ORG] in the USA. Rules and regulations are excessive and expensive to comply with.
So, what would the money the Trinity Desktop Environment Project, Inc. acquires be paid out for?
-hosting -having someone do the accounting and make required corporate reports -publicity and outreach? -salary for one or more full-time devs, if we were to grow that much? -other?
- Fond raising
- PR work ...
- Back pay? Figure out how much work has been done by who (number of commits?), how much it’s worth, what a total for all of that would be, and set aside [~25%?] of future donations to pay it off.
As long as we all agree, pretty much anything.
And sources of income would be . . .
-donations -sales of swag (shirts, coffee mugs, bumper stickers, mouse pads . . .) -technical support of TDE in larger deployments, à la Red Hat? -paid feature requests?
- EU project funds
- local project funds
And the next step would be research of the rules governing not-for-profits in the jurisdictions of people actually willing to do the *work* associated with ...
I can only speak for the Austrian situation Done that already for :) statistically every Austrian is member of at least 2 associations.
I’d suggest anyone interested in wanting to donate their time to doing the paperwork/bookkeeping do what Nik did and outlined their local requirements so we can talk it out and decide what/where makes the most sense for [TDE-ORG]. The world is a pretty small place now, so unless someone has an objection, anywhere that is cheap/easy seems ideal.
# # #
On a negative example note, the [TDE-ORG] bylaws/charter/TOS ‘stuff’ probably needs a constraint so the project doesn’t do a ‘Drupal’ where the Drupal Association literally dumped and ejected all the historical user base in favor of the top corporate donors. Based on that, I’d personally be somewhat against a ‘à la Red Hat’ model. *
Best All, Michael
* Besides which I just had to build three CentOS 7 servers with systemd and that thing is one piece of crap. So big middle finger to Red Hat for shoving that down peoples’ throats.
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On Thursday 23 April 2020 08:47:56 Michael wrote:
On Thursday 23 April 2020 09:32:36 am Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2020 Thu, 23 Apr 09:59:00 -0400
E. Liddell scripsit:
On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 21:46:20 -0500
Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:
Probably the best way with Tim 'owning' the non-profit.
In theory, we should probably incorporate, but this introduces accounting and tax-reporting requirements we haven't had to deal with up to this point. Still, we should move away from any single person being solely responsible for managing funds and resources—that's why we have a problem in the first place.
Unless Timothy (Tim?, what’s he like to be called by?) completely declines he should be the titular head, even if he never does anything else with TDE. Others elected/appointed can ‘do the work’ so to speak. Okay, my opinion, otherwise it’d be insanely rude to Timothy :(
There are likely to be advantages and disadvantages to setting up in each jurisdiction. And the US is not a single jurisdiction: each state is different.
From my experience: US jurisdiction is something you should stay away as far you can.
I’m a US citizen and I’d heavily recommend to not do [TDE-ORG] in the USA. Rules and regulations are excessive and expensive to comply with.
So, what would the money the Trinity Desktop Environment Project, Inc. acquires be paid out for?
-hosting -having someone do the accounting and make required corporate reports -publicity and outreach? -salary for one or more full-time devs, if we were to grow that much? -other?
- Fond raising
- PR work ...
- Back pay? Figure out how much work has been done by who (number of
commits?), how much it’s worth, what a total for all of that would be, and set aside [~25%?] of future donations to pay it off.
As long as we all agree, pretty much anything.
And sources of income would be . . .
-donations -sales of swag (shirts, coffee mugs, bumper stickers, mouse pads . . .) -technical support of TDE in larger deployments, à la Red Hat? -paid feature requests?
- EU project funds
- local project funds
And the next step would be research of the rules governing not-for-profits in the jurisdictions of people actually willing to do the *work* associated with ...
I can only speak for the Austrian situation Done that already for :) statistically every Austrian is member of at least 2 associations.
I’d suggest anyone interested in wanting to donate their time to doing the paperwork/bookkeeping do what Nik did and outlined their local requirements so we can talk it out and decide what/where makes the most sense for [TDE-ORG]. The world is a pretty small place now, so unless someone has an objection, anywhere that is cheap/easy seems ideal.
# # #
On a negative example note, the [TDE-ORG] bylaws/charter/TOS ‘stuff’ probably needs a constraint so the project doesn’t do a ‘Drupal’ where the Drupal Association literally dumped and ejected all the historical user base in favor of the top corporate donors. Based on that, I’d personally be somewhat against a ‘à la Red Hat’ model. *
Best All, Michael
- Besides which I just had to build three CentOS 7 servers with systemd and
that thing is one piece of crap. So big middle finger to Red Hat for shoving that down peoples’ throats.
I've been holding my tongue, out of respect for Slavek's wishes here. What is obvious is that we need some kind of sign from Timothy Pearson himself, concerning how we might proceed next. Otherwise, these are all pipe dreams.
There is no doubt, with the all the talent and wide knowledge that I see on display here in the mailing list, with our connections round the globe, that we could make TDE into the top dog among desktops. I would like to keep it free/libre, GNU/Linux, and not see it get sold out or otherwise turn into a proprietary nightmare. (I suppose, if the code is declared free/libre now, then it would always be forked once again, if necessary, in order to preserve it, but it seems wiser to be able to build on all the work that has been done already.)
Until we get that sign, however, it seems that we must wait here in a kind of limbo. Not to give up hope, though, I have polished my crystal ball, dusted off a pack of old tarot cards, and at this very moment I am searching for a virgin to sacrifice.
Bill
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On Thursday 23 April 2020 19.44:49 William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
I would like to keep it free/libre, GNU/Linux, and not see it get sold out or otherwise turn into a proprietary nightmare. (I suppose, if the code is declared free/libre now, then it would always be forked once again, if necessary, in order to preserve it, but it seems wiser to be able to build on all the work that has been done already.)
+1
Until we get that sign, however, it seems that we must wait here in a kind of limbo. Not to give up hope, though, I have polished my crystal ball, dusted off a pack of old tarot cards, and at this very moment I am searching for a virgin to sacrifice.
:)
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Hi all,
although I hoped that we would not be able to continue this discussion until after the release of R14.0.8, it is obvious that this topic is definitely important :)
On Thursday 23 of April 2020 17:47:56 Michael wrote:
On Thursday 23 April 2020 09:32:36 am Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2020 Thu, 23 Apr 09:59:00 -0400
E. Liddell scripsit:
On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 21:46:20 -0500
Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:
Probably the best way with Tim 'owning' the non-profit.
In theory, we should probably incorporate, but this introduces accounting and tax-reporting requirements we haven't had to deal with up to this point. Still, we should move away from any single person being solely responsible for managing funds and resources—that's why we have a problem in the first place.
Unless Timothy (Tim?, what’s he like to be called by?) completely declines he should be the titular head, even if he never does anything else with TDE. Others elected/appointed can ‘do the work’ so to speak. Okay, my opinion, otherwise it’d be insanely rude to Timothy :(
In a side e-mail in this thread, I mentioned that Tim and I had agreed to hand over the role of leader. Of course, Tim deserves the position of honorary chairman or some such honor. But because he is very busy with other projects, it is usually difficult to meet him. Therefore, we should not bind him to the roles in which his decisions will be needed. At the same time, I try not to make things dependent on me alone.
There are likely to be advantages and disadvantages to setting up in each jurisdiction. And the US is not a single jurisdiction: each state is different.
From my experience: US jurisdiction is something you should stay away as far you can.
I’m a US citizen and I’d heavily recommend to not do [TDE-ORG] in the USA. Rules and regulations are excessive and expensive to comply with.
So, what would the money the Trinity Desktop Environment Project, Inc. acquires be paid out for?
-hosting -having someone do the accounting and make required corporate reports -publicity and outreach? -salary for one or more full-time devs, if we were to grow that much? -other?
- Fond raising
- PR work ...
- Back pay? Figure out how much work has been done by who (number of
commits?), how much it’s worth, what a total for all of that would be, and set aside [~25%?] of future donations to pay it off.
As long as we all agree, pretty much anything.
Great, ideas are welcome. It will be good if we have an ideas of what needs to be done / we will be able to do.
In any case, my idea is that it would be best if we did not have to deal with the necessary legal side of the project and bookkeeping. And it seems that there could be solutions that could suit our needs. I will return to this below.
And sources of income would be . . .
-donations -sales of swag (shirts, coffee mugs, bumper stickers, mouse pads . . .) -technical support of TDE in larger deployments, à la Red Hat? -paid feature requests?
- EU project funds
- local project funds
And the next step would be research of the rules governing not-for-profits in the jurisdictions of people actually willing to do the *work* associated with ...
I can only speak for the Austrian situation Done that already for :) statistically every Austrian is member of at least 2 associations.
I’d suggest anyone interested in wanting to donate their time to doing the paperwork/bookkeeping do what Nik did and outlined their local requirements so we can talk it out and decide what/where makes the most sense for [TDE-ORG]. The world is a pretty small place now, so unless someone has an objection, anywhere that is cheap/easy seems ideal.
# # #
On a negative example note, the [TDE-ORG] bylaws/charter/TOS ‘stuff’ probably needs a constraint so the project doesn’t do a ‘Drupal’ where the Drupal Association literally dumped and ejected all the historical user base in favor of the top corporate donors. Based on that, I’d personally be somewhat against a ‘à la Red Hat’ model. *
I would find it ideal that we do not have to deal with legal issues and bookkeeping, we do not have to focus on generating profit, but we can simply focus on working as a TDE team and making TDE better and better.
Instead of an organization that someone could buy and decide on goals against the project's intentions, so that there could be a TDE team working on the goals we set ourselves.
Best All, Michael
- Besides which I just had to build three CentOS 7 servers with systemd
and that thing is one piece of crap. So big middle finger to Red Hat for shoving that down peoples’ throats.
I was previously interested in the fact that there could be companies / associations that provide legal services and bookkeeping for open source projects, because we are certainly not the only ones who need something like this.
That's why I was very interested to see that Gitea, which we use as a platform for developer collaboration, uses Open Collective - see https://opencollective.com/gitea/
After an initial survey, it seems to me that Open Collective could suit our needs. This could provide transparent bookkeeping and legal status for us without interfering with our activities, our decisions and our goals. Since I'm definitely not omniscient and I'd like us to make decisions as a team, please, if you have bookkeeping and legal knowledge, you can take a closer look at Open Collective.
I look forward to your feedback, comments and ideas.
Cheers
snipping everything down to Open Collective
On Thursday 23 April 2020 07:26:00 pm Slávek Banko wrote:
That's why I was very interested to see that Gitea, which we use as a platform for developer collaboration, uses Open Collective - see https://opencollective.com/gitea/
After an initial survey, it seems to me that Open Collective could suit our needs. This could provide transparent bookkeeping and legal status for us without interfering with our activities, our decisions and our goals. Since I'm definitely not omniscient and I'd like us to make decisions as a team, please, if you have bookkeeping and legal knowledge, you can take a closer look at Open Collective.
I look forward to your feedback, comments and ideas.
Hi Slávek,
Yeah, I'm one of those MBA wienies that looks at the bottom line first then the capabilities.
Open Collective’s fees seem a bit high?
$10 per month, plus 7.9% + 30¢ per successful card charge
30 cents at the $10 payment level is 3%, so average costs will probably be around ~11% of receipts.
https://opencollective.com/pricing https://stripe.com/pricing
# # #
These kind of decisions are always a trade off, personally I’d go with Open Collective to begin with, but if the [TDE-ORG] starts getting decent funding I’d move on to something else.
(Again personally) I’d suggest https://civicrm.org/ on https://backdropcms.org/ for the ‘later’ as the fees then are:
Discounted rate for eligible charities, 2.2% + $0.30 per transaction (average costs will probably be around ~6% of receipts.)
https://www.paypal.com/en/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees
But, as that would be later, the group will probably come up with something better by then.
And I somewhat agree with you on holding off on this whole discussion, but I think it’s probably actually helpful to get it most of it discussed before we approach Timothy.
Best All, Michael
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On Friday 24 of April 2020 03:29:29 Michael wrote:
snipping everything down to Open Collective
On Thursday 23 April 2020 07:26:00 pm Slávek Banko wrote:
That's why I was very interested to see that Gitea, which we use as a platform for developer collaboration, uses Open Collective - see https://opencollective.com/gitea/
After an initial survey, it seems to me that Open Collective could suit our needs. This could provide transparent bookkeeping and legal status for us without interfering with our activities, our decisions and our goals. Since I'm definitely not omniscient and I'd like us to make decisions as a team, please, if you have bookkeeping and legal knowledge, you can take a closer look at Open Collective.
I look forward to your feedback, comments and ideas.
Hi Slávek,
Yeah, I'm one of those MBA wienies that looks at the bottom line first then the capabilities.
Open Collective’s fees seem a bit high?
$10 per month, plus 7.9% + 30¢ per successful card charge
30 cents at the $10 payment level is 3%, so average costs will probably be around ~11% of receipts.
https://opencollective.com/pricing https://stripe.com/pricing
I assumed a plan using a fiscal host. If I understood correctly, for OpenSource projects, there are fiscal hosts available that have 5% fees and no fixed monthly fees. And above all, the fiscal host would take care of bookkeeping, taxes, and so on. We could choose whether we prefer the US (USD currency) or the EU (EUR currency):
https://opencollective.com/pricing?tab=singleCollectiveWithoutAccount
# # #
These kind of decisions are always a trade off, personally I’d go with Open Collective to begin with, but if the [TDE-ORG] starts getting decent funding I’d move on to something else.
If we use the Open Collective fiscal host, we would not have to deal with starting our own organization for now. That's one of the reasons why Open Collective seems interesting to me.
(Again personally) I’d suggest https://civicrm.org/ on https://backdropcms.org/ for the ‘later’ as the fees then are:
Discounted rate for eligible charities, 2.2% + $0.30 per transaction (average costs will probably be around ~6% of receipts.)
CRM and CMS? Does that seem to be quite a different purpose than we are dealing with now?
https://www.paypal.com/en/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees
But, as that would be later, the group will probably come up with something better by then.
And I somewhat agree with you on holding off on this whole discussion, but I think it’s probably actually helpful to get it most of it discussed before we approach Timothy.
Best All, Michael
The intention to pause the discussion was only because we need to devote our time at this time to preparing the release of R14.0.8, which is scheduled for next week. There is no doubt that this discussion is important and that this topic needs to be discussed.
Cheers
Anno domini 2020 Fri, 24 Apr 04:17:12 +0200 Slávek Banko scripsit:
On Friday 24 of April 2020 03:29:29 Michael wrote:
snipping everything down to Open Collective
On Thursday 23 April 2020 07:26:00 pm Slávek Banko wrote:
That's why I was very interested to see that Gitea, which we use as a platform for developer collaboration, uses Open Collective - see https://opencollective.com/gitea/
After an initial survey, it seems to me that Open Collective could suit our needs. This could provide transparent bookkeeping and legal status for us without interfering with our activities, our decisions and our goals. Since I'm definitely not omniscient and I'd like us to make decisions as a team, please, if you have bookkeeping and legal knowledge, you can take a closer look at Open Collective.
I look forward to your feedback, comments and ideas.
Hi Slávek,
Yeah, I'm one of those MBA wienies that looks at the bottom line first then the capabilities.
Open Collective’s fees seem a bit high?
$10 per month, plus 7.9% + 30¢ per successful card charge
30 cents at the $10 payment level is 3%, so average costs will probably be around ~11% of receipts.
https://opencollective.com/pricing https://stripe.com/pricing
I assumed a plan using a fiscal host. If I understood correctly, for OpenSource projects, there are fiscal hosts available that have 5% fees and no fixed monthly fees. And above all, the fiscal host would take care of bookkeeping, taxes, and so on. We could choose whether we prefer the US (USD currency) or the EU (EUR currency):
https://opencollective.com/pricing?tab=singleCollectiveWithoutAccount
# # #
These kind of decisions are always a trade off, personally I’d go with Open Collective to begin with, but if the [TDE-ORG] starts getting decent funding I’d move on to something else.
If we use the Open Collective fiscal host, we would not have to deal with starting our own organization for now. That's one of the reasons why Open Collective seems interesting to me.
This is kind of service is the most expensive you can get, leaving aside the legal implications. A professinal bookkeeper for a costs you ~ 300.- / year for simple bookkeeping (again: Austria) - that is, if you feel overhelmed with dooing simple bookkeeping yourself. If going for legal, how should these companies handle local laws? To which laws ate they bound? What's with VAT?
civicrm.org --> US backdropcms.org --> US opencollective.com --> US stripe.com --> UK
Choos your poison.
(Again personally) I’d suggest https://civicrm.org/ on https://backdropcms.org/ for the ‘later’ as the fees then are:
Discounted rate for eligible charities, 2.2% + $0.30 per transaction (average costs will probably be around ~6% of receipts.)
CRM and CMS? Does that seem to be quite a different purpose than we are dealing with now?
https://www.paypal.com/en/webapps/mpp/paypal-fees
But, as that would be later, the group will probably come up with something better by then.
And I somewhat agree with you on holding off on this whole discussion, but I think it’s probably actually helpful to get it most of it discussed before we approach Timothy.
Best All, Michael
The intention to pause the discussion was only because we need to devote our time at this time to preparing the release of R14.0.8, which is scheduled for next week. There is no doubt that this discussion is important and that this topic needs to be discussed.
Cheers
On Friday 24 of April 2020 08:15:14 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
I assumed a plan using a fiscal host. If I understood correctly, for OpenSource projects, there are fiscal hosts available that have 5% fees and no fixed monthly fees. And above all, the fiscal host would take care of bookkeeping, taxes, and so on. We could choose whether we prefer the US (USD currency) or the EU (EUR currency):
https://opencollective.com/pricing?tab=singleCollectiveWithoutAccount
# # #
These kind of decisions are always a trade off, personally I’d go with Open Collective to begin with, but if the [TDE-ORG] starts getting decent funding I’d move on to something else.
If we use the Open Collective fiscal host, we would not have to deal with starting our own organization for now. That's one of the reasons why Open Collective seems interesting to me.
This is kind of service is the most expensive you can get, leaving aside the legal implications. A professinal bookkeeper for a costs you ~ 300.- / year for simple bookkeeping (again: Austria) - that is, if you feel overhelmed with dooing simple bookkeeping yourself. If going for legal, how should these companies handle local laws? To which laws ate they bound? What's with VAT?
civicrm.org --> US backdropcms.org --> US opencollective.com --> US stripe.com --> UK
Choos your poison.
For Open Collective, it depends on the selected fiscal host. For example, here is a fiscal host based in Brussels:
https://opencollective.com/europe
Does anyone know of any other organizations such as Open Collective? There is an example Software Freedom Conservancy, but it does not give a choice of fiscal hosts - only the US. At the same time, it seems more limited in the possibilities of donation methods, I do not see transparent access to accounting records. See:
https://sfconservancy.org/projects/services/
Cheers
Anno domini 2020 Fri, 24 Apr 11:07:30 +0200 Slávek Banko scripsit:
On Friday 24 of April 2020 08:15:14 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
I assumed a plan using a fiscal host. If I understood correctly, for OpenSource projects, there are fiscal hosts available that have 5% fees and no fixed monthly fees. And above all, the fiscal host would take care of bookkeeping, taxes, and so on. We could choose whether we prefer the US (USD currency) or the EU (EUR currency):
https://opencollective.com/pricing?tab=singleCollectiveWithoutAccount
# # #
These kind of decisions are always a trade off, personally I’d go with Open Collective to begin with, but if the [TDE-ORG] starts getting decent funding I’d move on to something else.
If we use the Open Collective fiscal host, we would not have to deal with starting our own organization for now. That's one of the reasons why Open Collective seems interesting to me.
This is kind of service is the most expensive you can get, leaving aside the legal implications. A professinal bookkeeper for a costs you ~ 300.- / year for simple bookkeeping (again: Austria) - that is, if you feel overhelmed with dooing simple bookkeeping yourself. If going for legal, how should these companies handle local laws? To which laws ate they bound? What's with VAT?
civicrm.org --> US backdropcms.org --> US opencollective.com --> US stripe.com --> UK
Choos your poison.
For Open Collective, it depends on the selected fiscal host. For example, here is a fiscal host based in Brussels:
https://opencollective.com/europe
Does anyone know of any other organizations such as Open Collective? There is an example Software Freedom Conservancy, but it does not give a choice of fiscal hosts - only the US. At the same time, it seems more limited in the possibilities of donation methods, I do not see transparent access to accounting records. See:
https://sfconservancy.org/projects/services/
Cheers
The question still is: what problem can you sove with a paied service like that? You still need a legal framework to use it. And when you have the framework, what's the point in those services?
Nik
On Friday 24 of April 2020 12:14:53 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2020 Fri, 24 Apr 11:07:30 +0200
Slávek Banko scripsit:
On Friday 24 of April 2020 08:15:14 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
I assumed a plan using a fiscal host. If I understood correctly, for OpenSource projects, there are fiscal hosts available that have 5% fees and no fixed monthly fees. And above all, the fiscal host would take care of bookkeeping, taxes, and so on. We could choose whether we prefer the US (USD currency) or the EU (EUR currency):
https://opencollective.com/pricing?tab=singleCollectiveWithoutAcco unt
# # #
These kind of decisions are always a trade off, personally I’d go with Open Collective to begin with, but if the [TDE-ORG] starts getting decent funding I’d move on to something else.
If we use the Open Collective fiscal host, we would not have to deal with starting our own organization for now. That's one of the reasons why Open Collective seems interesting to me.
This is kind of service is the most expensive you can get, leaving aside the legal implications. A professinal bookkeeper for a costs you ~ 300.- / year for simple bookkeeping (again: Austria) - that is, if you feel overhelmed with dooing simple bookkeeping yourself. If going for legal, how should these companies handle local laws? To which laws ate they bound? What's with VAT?
civicrm.org --> US backdropcms.org --> US opencollective.com --> US stripe.com --> UK
Choos your poison.
For Open Collective, it depends on the selected fiscal host. For example, here is a fiscal host based in Brussels:
https://opencollective.com/europe
Does anyone know of any other organizations such as Open Collective? There is an example Software Freedom Conservancy, but it does not give a choice of fiscal hosts - only the US. At the same time, it seems more limited in the possibilities of donation methods, I do not see transparent access to accounting records. See:
https://sfconservancy.org/projects/services/
Cheers
The question still is: what problem can you sove with a paied service like that? You still need a legal framework to use it. And when you have the framework, what's the point in those services?
Nik
The idea is that instead of creating an organization for which we would have to take care of all the necessary legal, we could create a TDE team - a collective - at Open Collective. And through this team, we will be able to accept donations and manage funds without having to worry about bookkeeping and other legal requirements.
I suppose it will be easier to manage the core members of the team at Open Collective than to address legal issues regarding the statutory roles in the organization.
Or am I wrong and here are the necessary reasons for creating an organization?
Cheers
On Friday 24 April 2020 01:15:14 am Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2020 Fri, 24 Apr 04:17:12 +0200 the legal implications. A professinal bookkeeper for a costs you ~ 300.- / year for simple bookkeeping (again: Austria) - that is, if you feel overhelmed with dooing simple bookkeeping yourself. If going for legal, how should these companies handle local laws? To which laws ate they bound? What's with VAT?
civicrm.org --> US backdropcms.org --> US opencollective.com --> US stripe.com --> UK
Choos your poison.
Ah, I see I didn't transfer my thoughts well :(
civicrm.org and backdropcms.org are free platforms that can be used to replicate an Open Collective reporting system. The jurisdiction of either has nothing to do with [TDE-ORG] (or any of their other users). The rates were PayPal, those rates don’t apply to checks and any other monies that can be processed by the bank the [TDE-ORG] checking account is with.
They are both what I am moving my own site and the vast majority of my clients to in preparations for Drupal 7 going end of life in November 2021. (It may claim to be for NGOs, but it’s also used by commercial entities for it’s completeness of functions.)
My unwritten assumption was that I was the one building/hosting/upgrading/managing the civicrm and backdropcms site, hence it was ‘free’ to the [TDE-ORG]. The other unwritten bits were that civicrm is able to replace much of the scattered functions TDE has today into a single, integrated, space. [1]
[TDE-ORG] would need at least:
- legal status as a non-profit - checking account(s)
[TDE-ORG] could use:
- someone who can read and do simple math for a tax return
Creating [TDE-ORG] as a non-profit is not exceptionally difficult (even in the US [2]), it’s just a matter of reading, filling out forms, and paying a filing fee. If we even need help with that, we can ask any other Linux/tech related NGO questions.
Best, Michael
[1] The CiviCRM User Guide: Note: It needs a much better TOC, the ‘Next’ topic link is bottom-right on the page. https://docs.civicrm.org/user/en/latest/introduction/what-is-civicrm/
[2] Huh, the Amazon Smile thing seems to only be for USA based non-profits?
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This is a combined reply to Slavek, David and Michael :)
None of these "for free" or "for little fee" platform/companies will make [TDE-ORG] a legal entity. It's quite the contary: Now Tim is the legal burdon-carrier. The moment TDE leaves his nest, it's on it's own. In the worst case this is a fork - with possible the consequence of loosing TDE as a trademark and name. Having mentioned trademark: in Austria trademarks are quite cheep, I remember I payed € 250.- for 10 years, but trademarks are given to legal entities, not projects.
The moment [TDE-ORG] takes money, it needs to be a legal entity. Again, now it's Tim. If [TDE-ORG] wants to move away from busfactor=1 to e.g. busfactor=6, then 6 people will need to form a legal entity. Where that entity is located is essential in almost any sense: copyright, legal satatus, tax, domain, ...
I strongly suggest that everybody tries to figure out his/her countries legal situation concerning NGOs/association and the like. EU is not that unified as it might appear. There is a list of must-haves:
- VAT exemption, aka 0% VAT rate. - no tax requirement if income (in minus out) is lower € XXX (which happens to be ~ 5500.- in Austria) - simple bookkeeping requirements (in, out) - who is allowed to be board member (Austria: everybody AFAIK)
ANd stay away from US legislation :)
Nik
Anno domini 2020 Fri, 24 Apr 09:36:34 -0500 Michael scripsit:
On Friday 24 April 2020 01:15:14 am Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2020 Fri, 24 Apr 04:17:12 +0200 the legal implications. A professinal bookkeeper for a costs you ~ 300.- / year for simple bookkeeping (again: Austria) - that is, if you feel overhelmed with dooing simple bookkeeping yourself. If going for legal, how should these companies handle local laws? To which laws ate they bound? What's with VAT?
civicrm.org --> US backdropcms.org --> US opencollective.com --> US stripe.com --> UK
Choos your poison.
Ah, I see I didn't transfer my thoughts well :(
civicrm.org and backdropcms.org are free platforms that can be used to replicate an Open Collective reporting system. The jurisdiction of either has nothing to do with [TDE-ORG] (or any of their other users). The rates were PayPal, those rates don’t apply to checks and any other monies that can be processed by the bank the [TDE-ORG] checking account is with.
They are both what I am moving my own site and the vast majority of my clients to in preparations for Drupal 7 going end of life in November 2021. (It may claim to be for NGOs, but it’s also used by commercial entities for it’s completeness of functions.)
My unwritten assumption was that I was the one building/hosting/upgrading/managing the civicrm and backdropcms site, hence it was ‘free’ to the [TDE-ORG]. The other unwritten bits were that civicrm is able to replace much of the scattered functions TDE has today into a single, integrated, space. [1]
[TDE-ORG] would need at least:
- legal status as a non-profit
- checking account(s)
[TDE-ORG] could use:
- someone who can read and do simple math for a tax return
Creating [TDE-ORG] as a non-profit is not exceptionally difficult (even in the US [2]), it’s just a matter of reading, filling out forms, and paying a filing fee. If we even need help with that, we can ask any other Linux/tech related NGO questions.
Best, Michael
[1] The CiviCRM User Guide: Note: It needs a much better TOC, the ‘Next’ topic link is bottom-right on the page. https://docs.civicrm.org/user/en/latest/introduction/what-is-civicrm/
[2] Huh, the Amazon Smile thing seems to only be for USA based non-profits?
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On Friday 24 April 2020 01:03:50 pm Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
This is a combined reply to Slavek, David and Michael :)
None of these "for free" or "for little fee" platform/companies will make [TDE-ORG] a legal entity. It's quite the contary: Now Tim is the legal burdon-carrier. The moment TDE leaves his nest, it's on it's own. In the worst case this is a fork - with possible the consequence of loosing TDE as a trademark and name. Having mentioned trademark: in Austria trademarks are quite cheep, I remember I payed € 250.- for 10 years, but trademarks are given to legal entities, not projects.
The moment [TDE-ORG] takes money, it needs to be a legal entity. Again, now it's Tim. If [TDE-ORG] wants to move away from busfactor=1 to e.g. busfactor=6, then 6 people will need to form a legal entity. Where that entity is located is essential in almost any sense: copyright, legal satatus, tax, domain, ...
I strongly suggest that everybody tries to figure out his/her countries legal situation concerning NGOs/association and the like. EU is not that unified as it might appear. There is a list of must-haves:
Yeah, US sucks...
California: $75 to $600+ Tennessee: Incorporation: $100, charitable registration: $50 ($0 if exempt) Texas: Incorporation: $25 See [1] for other states.
Plus 501(c) IRS fee:
https://www.irs.gov/irb/2020-01_IRB#idm139960914697360 Application for recognition of exemption under § 501(c)(3): $275 or $600
(4) Canadian registered charities None Note: In accordance with the income tax treaty between the United States and Canada, Canadian registered charities are automatically recognized as exempt under § 501(c)(3) without filing an application for exemption. For details, see Notice 99-47, 1999-2 C.B. 391. Therefore, no user fee is required when a Canadian registered charity submits all or part of a Form 1023 to be listed in Tax Exempt Organization Search database for organizations eligible to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions (Pub. 78 data), or for a determination on its private foundation status.
Which lead me here:
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/charities-giving/charities/... 1. Is there a fee to become registered? No.
We have any Canadians on the list? That can track down what paperwork is required?
Seems like a way to slip in the back door to get an IRS EIN to be eligible for Amazon Smile (and the like). Especially if it really is basically ‘costless.’
Back to the salt mines,
Michael PS: Much of this is fairly relevant to a private library project I have under consideration, so anyone who’s made contributions on this start a NGO/charity thread, please send me a private email with a copy/paste of what you’ve written and I’ll tag you for free membership/swag (when it gets setup).
[1] https://nonprofithub.org/human-resources/the-cost-of-starting-a-nonprofit-in...
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:15:19 -0500 Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:
https://www.irs.gov/irb/2020-01_IRB#idm139960914697360 Application for recognition of exemption under § 501(c)(3): $275 or $600
(4) Canadian registered charities None Note: In accordance with the income tax treaty between the United States and Canada, Canadian registered charities are automatically recognized as exempt under § 501(c)(3) without filing an application for exemption. For details, see Notice 99-47, 1999-2 C.B. 391. Therefore, no user fee is required when a Canadian registered charity submits all or part of a Form 1023 to be listed in Tax Exempt Organization Search database for organizations eligible to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions (Pub. 78 data), or for a determination on its private foundation status.
Which lead me here:
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/charities-giving/charities/...
- Is there a fee to become registered?
No.
We have any Canadians on the list? That can track down what paperwork is required?
Seems like a way to slip in the back door to get an IRS EIN to be eligible for Amazon Smile (and the like). Especially if it really is basically ‘costless.’
The IRS exempts Canadian charities because they pay taxes here in Canada as required (and Canadian taxes are usually higher).
Requirements for registering as a not-for-profit appear to differ by province. Information for Ontario (which is where I am) can be found here:
https://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/family/pgt/nfpinc/Not_for_...
We don't fall neatly into any of their sample categories, so we might require lawyer time for documents. There are specific record-keeping requirements, we'd need a head office address in Ontario, we might or might not have to file yearly tax returns. I'm not willing (sorry!) to use my home address as the head office address, or be responsible for the paperwork, so it would be necessary to find someone else. Fees would be either $155 or $305 (Canadian dollars, roughly $0.75 US) for Letters Patent.
By my understanding, we would qualify as a not-for-profit, but not a charity, under the rules set out. Note that I have only skimmed the document.
It may be worth checking the rules for other provinces (especially Québec, which never does things in quite the same way as everyone else).
E. Liddell
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Is it possible to stop now all these hundred mail with the subject above. This is not the subject of this list = Tde-Trinity.
Thank.
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On Friday 24 April 2020 03:53:22 pm ajh-valmer wrote:
Is it possible to stop now all these hundred mail with the subject above. This is not the subject of this list = Tde-Trinity.
Hi ajh-valmer,
Since I’m a major contributor to the thread in question I guess I should answer your question.
The label [OT] has been agreed upon by the group to denote off topic threads, for the very reason that off topic threads will happen. Oddly you’re complaining about a thread that is extremely relevant to TDE as a whole (converting TDE to an NGO), so I’m guessing you haven’t read any of them? Which actually was the reason for the label [OT] to begin with, so it seems to work?
You are free to not read them, delete them, or auto-filter them into trash, but, off topic threads aren’t going to go away, no matter how annoying. It’s just not part of human nature...
Best Regards, Michael
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On Friday 24 of April 2020 20:03:50 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
This is a combined reply to Slavek, David and Michael :)
None of these "for free" or "for little fee" platform/companies will make [TDE-ORG] a legal entity. It's quite the contary: Now Tim is the legal burdon-carrier. The moment TDE leaves his nest, it's on it's own. In the worst case this is a fork - with possible the consequence of loosing TDE as a trademark and name. Having mentioned trademark: in Austria trademarks are quite cheep, I remember I payed € 250.- for 10 years, but trademarks are given to legal entities, not projects.
The moment [TDE-ORG] takes money, it needs to be a legal entity. Again, now it's Tim. If [TDE-ORG] wants to move away from busfactor=1 to e.g. busfactor=6, then 6 people will need to form a legal entity. Where that entity is located is essential in almost any sense: copyright, legal satatus, tax, domain, ...
I strongly suggest that everybody tries to figure out his/her countries legal situation concerning NGOs/association and the like. EU is not that unified as it might appear. There is a list of must-haves:
- VAT exemption, aka 0% VAT rate.
- no tax requirement if income (in minus out) is lower € XXX (which
happens to be ~ 5500.- in Austria) - simple bookkeeping requirements (in, out)
- who is allowed to be board member (Austria: everybody AFAIK)
ANd stay away from US legislation :)
Nik
Hi Nik, all,
I dare to disagree with a number of opinions.
Tim founded the project, Tim was its leader, Tim agreed to hand over the role of project leader. As far as I know, there is no registered trademark for which Tim would be its holder. Therefore, I believe that there is no reason to claim that only Tim is the legal holder for project. Tim, as an ordinary natural person, handed over the role of project leader, so I don't find a reason to call it a fork.
Similar to your opinion that only Tim is legal to accept donations. Tim is only a natural person and so far he accepts donations as a natural person on some of his account. He is not an organization. He is the founder of the project. A project for which other natural persons have taken responsibility for its continuation.
I do not agree that the only way for a TDE project to accept donations and manage funds is to create our own organization. Obviously, there are at least two possible variants:
1. Create our own organization and take responsibility for all legal matters relating to the status of the organization.
2. Leave the project as a team and use a fiscal host. This is the same principle as projects associated with organizations such as the Freedom Software Conservancy, the Apache Foundation, the Linux Foundation and also Open Collective.
As I see in the comments from others involved in the discussion, for the creation of our own organization, some claim that it is quite simple, others claim that there are many problem points - the choice of continent, country, state, legislation,... so a lot of problems. Do you really want to deal with that? In addition, do you really want to deal with the fact that it will then be necessary to monitor changes in the legislation of a selected country so that the organization does not neglect any new regulations of the law? Who would want to do that?
Because it is important for us to work on a project and not to deal with legal matters, bookkeeping, and so on, the option with a fiscal host seems to me to be definitely more advantageous.
Cheers
On 25/04/2020 02:01, Slávek Banko wrote:
On Friday 24 of April 2020 20:03:50 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
This is a combined reply to Slavek, David and Michael :)
None of these "for free" or "for little fee" platform/companies will make [TDE-ORG] a legal entity. It's quite the contary: Now Tim is the legal burdon-carrier. The moment TDE leaves his nest, it's on it's own. In the worst case this is a fork - with possible the consequence of loosing TDE as a trademark and name. Having mentioned trademark: in Austria trademarks are quite cheep, I remember I payed € 250.- for 10 years, but trademarks are given to legal entities, not projects.
The moment [TDE-ORG] takes money, it needs to be a legal entity. Again, now it's Tim. If [TDE-ORG] wants to move away from busfactor=1 to e.g. busfactor=6, then 6 people will need to form a legal entity. Where that entity is located is essential in almost any sense: copyright, legal satatus, tax, domain, ...
I strongly suggest that everybody tries to figure out his/her countries legal situation concerning NGOs/association and the like. EU is not that unified as it might appear. There is a list of must-haves:
- VAT exemption, aka 0% VAT rate.
- no tax requirement if income (in minus out) is lower € XXX (which
happens to be ~ 5500.- in Austria) - simple bookkeeping requirements (in, out)
- who is allowed to be board member (Austria: everybody AFAIK)
ANd stay away from US legislation :)
Nik
Hi Nik, all,
I dare to disagree with a number of opinions.
Tim founded the project, Tim was its leader, Tim agreed to hand over the role of project leader. As far as I know, there is no registered trademark for which Tim would be its holder. Therefore, I believe that there is no reason to claim that only Tim is the legal holder for project. Tim, as an ordinary natural person, handed over the role of project leader, so I don't find a reason to call it a fork.
First comment on this thread and I've, at best, only skin read it but I have to agree with Slávek on this. Not sure why or how this thread had rampaged, out of control almost, in the direction it has but hey guys, its a software project aimed at saving a great desktop environment, which it is doing very well. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. Why would you want to go and spoil it?
In the words of that famous song, 'Call somewhere paradise and kiss it goodbye".
Long live the TDE software project :)
Anno domini 2020 Sat, 25 Apr 03:01:11 +0200 Slávek Banko scripsit:
On Friday 24 of April 2020 20:03:50 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
This is a combined reply to Slavek, David and Michael :)
None of these "for free" or "for little fee" platform/companies will make [TDE-ORG] a legal entity. It's quite the contary: Now Tim is the legal burdon-carrier. The moment TDE leaves his nest, it's on it's own. In the worst case this is a fork - with possible the consequence of loosing TDE as a trademark and name. Having mentioned trademark: in Austria trademarks are quite cheep, I remember I payed € 250.- for 10 years, but trademarks are given to legal entities, not projects.
The moment [TDE-ORG] takes money, it needs to be a legal entity. Again, now it's Tim. If [TDE-ORG] wants to move away from busfactor=1 to e.g. busfactor=6, then 6 people will need to form a legal entity. Where that entity is located is essential in almost any sense: copyright, legal satatus, tax, domain, ...
I strongly suggest that everybody tries to figure out his/her countries legal situation concerning NGOs/association and the like. EU is not that unified as it might appear. There is a list of must-haves:
- VAT exemption, aka 0% VAT rate.
- no tax requirement if income (in minus out) is lower € XXX (which
happens to be ~ 5500.- in Austria) - simple bookkeeping requirements (in, out)
- who is allowed to be board member (Austria: everybody AFAIK)
ANd stay away from US legislation :)
Nik
Hi Nik, all,
I dare to disagree with a number of opinions.
Tim founded the project, Tim was its leader, Tim agreed to hand over the role of project leader. As far as I know, there is no registered trademark for which Tim would be its holder. Therefore, I believe that there is no reason to claim that only Tim is the legal holder for project. Tim, as an ordinary natural person, handed over the role of project leader, so I don't find a reason to call it a fork.
Similar to your opinion that only Tim is legal to accept donations. Tim is only a natural person and so far he accepts donations as a natural person on some of his account. He is not an organization. He is the founder of the project. A project for which other natural persons have taken responsibility for its continuation.
I do not agree that the only way for a TDE project to accept donations and manage funds is to create our own organization. Obviously, there are at least two possible variants:
- Create our own organization and take responsibility for all legal
matters relating to the status of the organization.
- Leave the project as a team and use a fiscal host. This is the same
principle as projects associated with organizations such as the Freedom Software Conservancy, the Apache Foundation, the Linux Foundation and also Open Collective.
As I see in the comments from others involved in the discussion, for the creation of our own organization, some claim that it is quite simple, others claim that there are many problem points - the choice of continent, country, state, legislation,... so a lot of problems. Do you really want to deal with that? In addition, do you really want to deal with the fact that it will then be necessary to monitor changes in the legislation of a selected country so that the organization does not neglect any new regulations of the law? Who would want to do that?
Because it is important for us to work on a project and not to deal with legal matters, bookkeeping, and so on, the option with a fiscal host seems to me to be definitely more advantageous.
Cheers
If you stay under US law, "legal hosts" may be a way to go. If you don't, this concept does not exist.
Nik
Slávek Banko wrote:
Hi Nik, all,
I dare to disagree with a number of opinions.
Tim founded the project, Tim was its leader, Tim agreed to hand over the role of project leader. As far as I know, there is no registered trademark for which Tim would be its holder. Therefore, I believe that there is no reason to claim that only Tim is the legal holder for project. Tim, as an ordinary natural person, handed over the role of project leader, so I don't find a reason to call it a fork.
Similar to your opinion that only Tim is legal to accept donations. Tim is only a natural person and so far he accepts donations as a natural person on some of his account. He is not an organization. He is the founder of the project. A project for which other natural persons have taken responsibility for its continuation.
I do not agree that the only way for a TDE project to accept donations and manage funds is to create our own organization. Obviously, there are at least two possible variants:
- Create our own organization and take responsibility for all legal
matters relating to the status of the organization.
- Leave the project as a team and use a fiscal host. This is the same
principle as projects associated with organizations such as the Freedom Software Conservancy, the Apache Foundation, the Linux Foundation and also Open Collective.
As I see in the comments from others involved in the discussion, for the creation of our own organization, some claim that it is quite simple, others claim that there are many problem points - the choice of continent, country, state, legislation,... so a lot of problems. Do you really want to deal with that? In addition, do you really want to deal with the fact that it will then be necessary to monitor changes in the legislation of a selected country so that the organization does not neglect any new regulations of the law? Who would want to do that?
Because it is important for us to work on a project and not to deal with legal matters, bookkeeping, and so on, the option with a fiscal host seems to me to be definitely more advantageous.
Hi Slavek, I understand the people here are discussing just in theory what could be doable, where, how and when. It looks like many people care about TDE and it might be the concern they have about the future of TDE.
I let you explain if you wish how the future looks like, but may be (I have not looked at the TDE page) there are all the details explained (if not it is worth putting it down). I tend to remember that replacement of Tim was publicly announced.
On the other hand I was looking with some friends into the regulations regarding NGOs in Austria fiew years ago, and they are really appealing. It is almost no cost and offers benefits if you want to get funds, do charity or support an idea.
Originally the thread was about T-shirts and pollos and they started looking into how such things (for example your favorite coffee mug) can be sold and support TDE. This is not a bad idea at all, if someone wants to do the administrative part.
For example it can be that Nic takes the responsibility to do the paper work in Austria and someone else (Thiery) organizes the shirts and whatever.
I think it should be clear, that nither you nor whoever from the developers and the people working on the project can and want to spend time on such activities.
In any case it is interesting to read.
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On Saturday 25 April 2020 04:04:09 deloptes wrote:
Slávek Banko wrote:
Hi Nik, all,
I dare to disagree with a number of opinions.
Tim founded the project, Tim was its leader, Tim agreed to hand over the role of project leader. As far as I know, there is no registered trademark for which Tim would be its holder. Therefore, I believe that there is no reason to claim that only Tim is the legal holder for project. Tim, as an ordinary natural person, handed over the role of project leader, so I don't find a reason to call it a fork.
Similar to your opinion that only Tim is legal to accept donations. Tim is only a natural person and so far he accepts donations as a natural person on some of his account. He is not an organization. He is the founder of the project. A project for which other natural persons have taken responsibility for its continuation.
I do not agree that the only way for a TDE project to accept donations and manage funds is to create our own organization. Obviously, there are at least two possible variants:
- Create our own organization and take responsibility for all legal
matters relating to the status of the organization.
- Leave the project as a team and use a fiscal host. This is the same
principle as projects associated with organizations such as the Freedom Software Conservancy, the Apache Foundation, the Linux Foundation and also Open Collective.
As I see in the comments from others involved in the discussion, for the creation of our own organization, some claim that it is quite simple, others claim that there are many problem points - the choice of continent, country, state, legislation,... so a lot of problems. Do you really want to deal with that? In addition, do you really want to deal with the fact that it will then be necessary to monitor changes in the legislation of a selected country so that the organization does not neglect any new regulations of the law? Who would want to do that?
Because it is important for us to work on a project and not to deal with legal matters, bookkeeping, and so on, the option with a fiscal host seems to me to be definitely more advantageous.
Hi Slavek, I understand the people here are discussing just in theory what could be doable, where, how and when. It looks like many people care about TDE and it might be the concern they have about the future of TDE.
I let you explain if you wish how the future looks like, but may be (I have not looked at the TDE page) there are all the details explained (if not it is worth putting it down). I tend to remember that replacement of Tim was publicly announced.
On the other hand I was looking with some friends into the regulations regarding NGOs in Austria fiew years ago, and they are really appealing. It is almost no cost and offers benefits if you want to get funds, do charity or support an idea.
Originally the thread was about T-shirts and pollos and they started looking into how such things (for example your favorite coffee mug) can be sold and support TDE. This is not a bad idea at all, if someone wants to do the administrative part.
For example it can be that Nic takes the responsibility to do the paper work in Austria and someone else (Thiery) organizes the shirts and whatever.
I think it should be clear, that nither you nor whoever from the developers and the people working on the project can and want to spend time on such activities.
In any case it is interesting to read.
Ideally, out of respect to those readers who want to be about ONLY TDE-Trinity technical matters (and NOTHING MORE): We really ought to have something like a forum, where such matters can be given free rein, without annoying them who don't want to read our dreaming and scheming. Readers can just skim over the threads, and choose what to read, or not. When it's like this, where everything gets sent out to the mailing list, and annoys some of the subscribers, well that's just not good for anybody concerned. But so this is where we are, and we can try to deal with it. Apologies to all who take offense; what follows is both verbose and prolix, and moreover, uses too many words.
Myself, I would agree that less involvement with the business side of matters is definitely preferable. Who, after all, wants to keep the accounts, pay for servers, hosting, etc.? However, somebody does something now, or we wouldn't be here; so it seems to me that it is rather a question of how to bring it all out into the open, allowing members to get involved, if they have something to contribute in the way of resource, skills, background, knowledge, or useful business/legal connections. I do not want to see TDE taken over by a gang of Suits, who only see it from the point of view of business; I believe any business or legal arrangements ought to serve the collective interests of furthering development of the Trinity desktop, rather than TDE serving business or similar interests in profit or whatever.
However, to take only the matter of branding: If TDE is to be circulated and promoted along side other desktops, gets included in the mainstream repositories such as Debian, Ubuntu, etc., then we will eventually be forced to establish copyright over logos, and any other unique details of design, and so on. This means that we will need at least some involvement in the dirty world of business. Otherwise, we create polo shirts and coffee mugs and mouse mats: but for what purpose, except to raise a little money, to keep development going forward, to ensure that TDE will still be available in the future, so that we all don't end up being forced to use ... ? some other desktop?
If I recall, Mozilla (for example) is, or used to be, a non-profit organization. Just because a business is set up as a non-profit doesn't mean that they cannot make money; it just means that the nature of their business aims primarily at a public good, or a service to community. Some non-profit businesses in the US can make BILLIONS of dollars (e.g., hospitals and such); so much so, that the notion of "non-profit" seems rather like a word-game, that it is really just a trick to avoid taxes, and meanwhile the smaller non-profit businesses are sometimes overburdened with paperwork.
In any case, there is no point in creating T-shirts, or any other items with TDE logo, name, catch-phrases, etc., if we do not consider these matters of branding and copyright. We might recall that Mozilla got all upset not so much that other people forked their project to create Seamonkey, Iceweasel, Icecat, etc.; but rather that they wanted changes in both name and logos. It was a conflict over branding and who owns the logos and names. And to take care of those matters, we will need some sort of legal framework and business structure; as well as a name, a place, and local address to call home, where mail gets sent, and so on. That can be a post office box, and whoever collects the mail can also keep the books, so long as there are some guidelines.
And I agree with Nik that it seems best to avoid US jurisdictions, if possible. (I hear, through the grapevine, that Delaware is a good state to incorporate for businesses; I don't know if it is preferable for non-profits, but the information can be found.) In any case, we might think hard before establishing business in the US. Wait until the dust settles from all the weirdness going on here in the States ... say, another 20 or 30 years? ... before putting down roots here in the US, and our states might not be called "united" by that time. Moreover, legislators have very little understanding of their computers and smartphones actually work: witness the controversies over encryption and such.
But then, so we decide (for example) to keep it as simple as possible, to use a fiscal host (as Slavek recommends). Now let's say that somebody in Germany has set up an operation to manufacture and sell T-shirts and polo shirts; another person, in France, is creating coffee mugs, some others in Russia have made TDE mouse mats; and meanwhile we have people in the US who want to buy these items, or otherwise contribute some money to the cause. How do we establish our name, slogans or catch-phrases, any kind of design copyright, unless we have some kind of legal framework, business structure, and a local address in some nation or other? Moreover, when these cottage industries manufacture TDE swag, how do we funnel the extra funds (above basic expenses) into an account where it may be used to further the development of TDE? Or shall we expect that these various operations will just hand it over out of the goodness of their hearts? What if they decide unilaterally to change something in design of TDE logo, name, slogans, etc.? for example, to promote a private agenda (political, religious, etc.), or if their products are just plain crap, and an embarrassment to the rest of us?
All of these issues imply the need of some kind of legal framework and business structure. And I, out of everybody here, avoid that stuff like the plague. Nothing kills creativity so fast as when, for example, a group of Suits walk into a recording session; and I don't imagine that the Suits are much different in any other kind of creative work. But there it is. We need to have some kind of place, a locale in the real world, and this means getting entangled with local laws and government and business practices.
As for *where* might be most suitable for our needs? I don't know, Switzerland? Belize? Grenada? the Bahamas? I hear that there are some abandoned or unclaimed rigs off the coast of the UK and Europe, and there is some spot of land that is not claimed by any nation, somewhere in Eastern Europe, if I recall. We could wait and hope that somebody discovers the mythical kingdom of Shambala ... that's always a possibility.
Apologies for the length, but that's my rant.
Bill
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Hi Guys,
On Saturday 25 April 2020 13:35:59 William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Saturday 25 April 2020 04:04:09 deloptes wrote:
Slávek Banko wrote:
Hi Nik, all,
I dare to disagree with a number of opinions.
Tim founded the project, Tim was its leader, Tim agreed to hand over the role of project leader. As far as I know, there is no registered trademark for which Tim would be its holder. Therefore, I believe that there is no reason to claim that only Tim is the legal holder for project. Tim, as an ordinary natural person, handed over the role of project leader, so I don't find a reason to call it a fork.
Similar to your opinion that only Tim is legal to accept donations. Tim is only a natural person and so far he accepts donations as a natural person on some of his account. He is not an organization. He is the founder of the project. A project for which other natural persons have taken responsibility for its continuation.
I do not agree that the only way for a TDE project to accept donations and manage funds is to create our own organization. Obviously, there are at least two possible variants:
- Create our own organization and take responsibility for all
legal matters relating to the status of the organization.
- Leave the project as a team and use a fiscal host. This is
the same principle as projects associated with organizations such as the Freedom Software Conservancy, the Apache Foundation, the Linux Foundation and also Open Collective.
As I see in the comments from others involved in the discussion, for the creation of our own organization, some claim that it is quite simple, others claim that there are many problem points - the choice of continent, country, state, legislation,... so a lot of problems. Do you really want to deal with that? In addition, do you really want to deal with the fact that it will then be necessary to monitor changes in the legislation of a selected country so that the organization does not neglect any new regulations of the law? Who would want to do that?
Because it is important for us to work on a project and not to deal with legal matters, bookkeeping, and so on, the option with a fiscal host seems to me to be definitely more advantageous.
Hi Slavek, I understand the people here are discussing just in theory what could be doable, where, how and when. It looks like many people care about TDE and it might be the concern they have about the future of TDE.
I let you explain if you wish how the future looks like, but may be (I have not looked at the TDE page) there are all the details explained (if not it is worth putting it down). I tend to remember that replacement of Tim was publicly announced.
On the other hand I was looking with some friends into the regulations regarding NGOs in Austria fiew years ago, and they are really appealing. It is almost no cost and offers benefits if you want to get funds, do charity or support an idea.
Originally the thread was about T-shirts and pollos and they started looking into how such things (for example your favorite coffee mug) can be sold and support TDE. This is not a bad idea at all, if someone wants to do the administrative part.
For example it can be that Nic takes the responsibility to do the paper work in Austria and someone else (Thiery) organizes the shirts and whatever.
I think it should be clear, that nither you nor whoever from the developers and the people working on the project can and want to spend time on such activities.
In any case it is interesting to read.
Ideally, out of respect to those readers who want to be about ONLY TDE-Trinity technical matters (and NOTHING MORE): We really ought to have something like a forum, where such matters can be given free rein, without annoying them who don't want to read our dreaming and scheming. Readers can just skim over the threads, and choose what to read, or not. When it's like this, where everything gets sent out to the mailing list, and annoys some of the subscribers, well that's just not good for anybody concerned. But so this is where we are, and we can try to deal with it. Apologies to all who take offense; what follows is both verbose and prolix, and moreover, uses too many words.
Myself, I would agree that less involvement with the business side of matters is definitely preferable. Who, after all, wants to keep the accounts, pay for servers, hosting, etc.? However, somebody does something now, or we wouldn't be here; so it seems to me that it is rather a question of how to bring it all out into the open, allowing members to get involved, if they have something to contribute in the way of resource, skills, background, knowledge, or useful business/legal connections. I do not want to see TDE taken over by a gang of Suits, who only see it from the point of view of business; I believe any business or legal arrangements ought to serve the collective interests of furthering development of the Trinity desktop, rather than TDE serving business or similar interests in profit or whatever.
However, to take only the matter of branding: If TDE is to be circulated and promoted along side other desktops, gets included in the mainstream repositories such as Debian, Ubuntu, etc., then we will eventually be forced to establish copyright over logos, and any other unique details of design, and so on. This means that we will need at least some involvement in the dirty world of business. Otherwise, we create polo shirts and coffee mugs and mouse mats: but for what purpose, except to raise a little money, to keep development going forward, to ensure that TDE will still be available in the future, so that we all don't end up being forced to use ... ? some other desktop?
If I recall, Mozilla (for example) is, or used to be, a non-profit organization. Just because a business is set up as a non-profit doesn't mean that they cannot make money; it just means that the nature of their business aims primarily at a public good, or a service to community. Some non-profit businesses in the US can make BILLIONS of dollars (e.g., hospitals and such); so much so, that the notion of "non-profit" seems rather like a word-game, that it is really just a trick to avoid taxes, and meanwhile the smaller non-profit businesses are sometimes overburdened with paperwork.
In any case, there is no point in creating T-shirts, or any other items with TDE logo, name, catch-phrases, etc., if we do not consider these matters of branding and copyright. We might recall that Mozilla got all upset not so much that other people forked their project to create Seamonkey, Iceweasel, Icecat, etc.; but rather that they wanted changes in both name and logos. It was a conflict over branding and who owns the logos and names. And to take care of those matters, we will need some sort of legal framework and business structure; as well as a name, a place, and local address to call home, where mail gets sent, and so on. That can be a post office box, and whoever collects the mail can also keep the books, so long as there are some guidelines.
And I agree with Nik that it seems best to avoid US jurisdictions, if possible. (I hear, through the grapevine, that Delaware is a good state to incorporate for businesses; I don't know if it is preferable for non-profits, but the information can be found.) In any case, we might think hard before establishing business in the US. Wait until the dust settles from all the weirdness going on here in the States ... say, another 20 or 30 years? ... before putting down roots here in the US, and our states might not be called "united" by that time. Moreover, legislators have very little understanding of their computers and smartphones actually work: witness the controversies over encryption and such.
But then, so we decide (for example) to keep it as simple as possible, to use a fiscal host (as Slavek recommends). Now let's say that somebody in Germany has set up an operation to manufacture and sell T-shirts and polo shirts; another person, in France, is creating coffee mugs, some others in Russia have made TDE mouse mats; and meanwhile we have people in the US who want to buy these items, or otherwise contribute some money to the cause. How do we establish our name, slogans or catch-phrases, any kind of design copyright, unless we have some kind of legal framework, business structure, and a local address in some nation or other? Moreover, when these cottage industries manufacture TDE swag, how do we funnel the extra funds (above basic expenses) into an account where it may be used to further the development of TDE? Or shall we expect that these various operations will just hand it over out of the goodness of their hearts? What if they decide unilaterally to change something in design of TDE logo, name, slogans, etc.? for example, to promote a private agenda (political, religious, etc.), or if their products are just plain crap, and an embarrassment to the rest of us?
All of these issues imply the need of some kind of legal framework and business structure. And I, out of everybody here, avoid that stuff like the plague. Nothing kills creativity so fast as when, for example, a group of Suits walk into a recording session; and I don't imagine that the Suits are much different in any other kind of creative work. But there it is. We need to have some kind of place, a locale in the real world, and this means getting entangled with local laws and government and business practices.
As for *where* might be most suitable for our needs? I don't know, Switzerland? Belize? Grenada? the Bahamas? I hear that there are some abandoned or unclaimed rigs off the coast of the UK and Europe, and there is some spot of land that is not claimed by any nation, somewhere in Eastern Europe, if I recall. We could wait and hope that somebody discovers the mythical kingdom of Shambala ... that's always a possibility.
Apologies for the length, but that's my rant.
Bill
Having run businesses for nearly 50 years, I understand where Bill is coming from. With all the added legislation and rules, running any kind of business is full of traps for the unwary. I would think long and hard if that was something I wanted to do.
Whilst I am very willing to support TDE by buying goods or donating money, but as soon as it becomes a commercial enterprise someone has to be the legal entity.
Hi All, {snip it all!}
Let’s work together, not against each other. We seem to be [excessively?] debating over details that, in the big picture, aren’t that productive.
Bullet pointing [as I see it]:
- We all want to be able to use TDE [for the rest of our lives]. - NO one is going to be asked to deal with issues they don’t want to deal with. - A clearer definition of the TDE structure seems to be something [most?] of us want. - A clearer definition of the TDE structure is something some of us need [for taxes]. - The release of TDE R14.0.8 is more important than this discussion [in the short term]. - - To that end no decision can be made until well after .8 is released [so everyone can catch up].
If we can “leave the project as a team and use a fiscal host” that would be the easiest and most convenient and seems to solve all our short term needs. If at some later date, it’s not working out the way we want, we can move to a more independent structure. Unfortunately we don’t have enough hard information about what a ‘fiscal host’ is or does, but that information can be gathered prior to .8 being released [by people not involved in .8].
# # #
I’m asking for a single volunteer for the below, so that the info dig isn’t repeated a dozen times and gitea isn’t bombarded with the same question(s) from a dozen people. In that respect would someone, besides Slávek ;), volunteer to dig through the:
https://opencollective.com/gitea/
documentation and summarize for the rest of us [please include reference links!] how gitea:
- Explicitly exempts TDE from needing a legal structure of its own. - What TDE needs to do to join. - What, if any, other requirements need to be met: - - For joining - - For ongoing membership - Does using gitea constrain TDE from becoming independent later?
# # #
First to volunteer by timestamp gets it? But do wait a day or so before info digging so everyone else (who’s interested) can add whatever else they think we might need to know about gitea before we ‘join’ them.
And as several other have noted, this is important to TDE, but it’s sucking way too much of my time atm...
Best All!, Michael
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On Sunday 26 April 2020 10:07:23 Michael wrote:
Hi All, {snip it all!}
Let’s work together, not against each other. We seem to be [excessively?] debating over details that, in the big picture, aren’t that productive.
Bullet pointing [as I see it]:
- We all want to be able to use TDE [for the rest of our lives].
- NO one is going to be asked to deal with issues they don’t want to deal
with.
- A clearer definition of the TDE structure seems to be something [most?]
of us want.
- A clearer definition of the TDE structure is something some of us need
[for taxes].
- The release of TDE R14.0.8 is more important than this discussion [in the
short term].
- To that end no decision can be made until well after .8 is released [so
everyone can catch up].
If we can “leave the project as a team and use a fiscal host” that would be the easiest and most convenient and seems to solve all our short term needs. If at some later date, it’s not working out the way we want, we can move to a more independent structure. Unfortunately we don’t have enough hard information about what a ‘fiscal host’ is or does, but that information can be gathered prior to .8 being released [by people not involved in .8].
# # #
I’m asking for a single volunteer for the below, so that the info dig isn’t repeated a dozen times and gitea isn’t bombarded with the same question(s) from a dozen people. In that respect would someone, besides Slávek ;), volunteer to dig through the:
https://opencollective.com/gitea/
documentation and summarize for the rest of us [please include reference links!] how gitea:
- Explicitly exempts TDE from needing a legal structure of its own.
- What TDE needs to do to join.
- What, if any, other requirements need to be met:
- For joining
- For ongoing membership
- Does using gitea constrain TDE from becoming independent later?
# # #
First to volunteer by timestamp gets it? But do wait a day or so before info digging so everyone else (who’s interested) can add whatever else they think we might need to know about gitea before we ‘join’ them.
And as several other have noted, this is important to TDE, but it’s sucking way too much of my time atm...
Best All!, Michael
We ought to create an online forum (once we get through this, after the official release, etc.) where we can talk about whatever we want, TDE-related or not, technical or not, so that the mailing list can be kept for its intended purpose.
Otherwise, people will keep forgetting that they are only human, and the conversation will keep going off the rails, and other people will keep getting angry ... and so on to infinity. In other words, it will be like it is now, only keep getting worse. Or, we could try something different.
Bill
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On Sunday 26 of April 2020 19:07:23 Michael wrote:
I’m asking for a single volunteer for the below, so that the info dig isn’t repeated a dozen times and gitea isn’t bombarded with the same question(s) from a dozen people. In that respect would someone, besides Slávek ;), volunteer to dig through the:
https://opencollective.com/gitea/
documentation and summarize for the rest of us [please include reference links!] how gitea:
- Explicitly exempts TDE from needing a legal structure of its own.
- What TDE needs to do to join.
- What, if any, other requirements need to be met:
- For joining
- For ongoing membership
- Does using gitea constrain TDE from becoming independent later?
# # #
First to volunteer by timestamp gets it? But do wait a day or so before info digging so everyone else (who’s interested) can add whatever else they think we might need to know about gitea before we ‘join’ them.
And as several other have noted, this is important to TDE, but it’s sucking way too much of my time atm...
Best All!, Michael
Just a few notes:
1. Gitea != Open Collective. This has been cited as one example of who also uses Open Collective platform. Similarly, the Manjaro distribution could be an example - see https://opencollective.com/manjaro
Note that Gitea uses the fiscal host located in the US, Manjaro uses the fiscal host located in the EU.
2. Yesterday and partly today, I spent a lot of time finding out more details about Open Collective and also Software Freedom Conservancy.
So I'm ready to make some more detailed summary of the pros and cons. However, it must wait a while - probably to time after the release of R14.0.8 (it will be in a few days).
Cheers
On Sunday 26 April 2020 01:26:43 pm Slávek Banko wrote:
On Sunday 26 of April 2020 19:07:23 Michael wrote:
I’m asking for a single volunteer for the below, so that the info dig isn’t repeated a dozen times and gitea isn’t bombarded with the same question(s) from a dozen people. In that respect would someone, besides Slávek ;), volunteer to dig through the:
https://opencollective.com/gitea/
documentation and summarize for the rest of us [please include reference links!] how gitea:
- Explicitly exempts TDE from needing a legal structure of its own.
- What TDE needs to do to join.
- What, if any, other requirements need to be met:
- For joining
- For ongoing membership
- Does using gitea constrain TDE from becoming independent later?
# # #
First to volunteer by timestamp gets it? But do wait a day or so before info digging so everyone else (who’s interested) can add whatever else they think we might need to know about gitea before we ‘join’ them.
And as several other have noted, this is important to TDE, but it’s sucking way too much of my time atm...
Best All!, Michael
Just a few notes:
- Gitea != Open Collective. This has been cited as one example of who also
uses Open Collective platform. Similarly, the Manjaro distribution could be an example - see https://opencollective.com/manjaro
Note that Gitea uses the fiscal host located in the US, Manjaro uses the fiscal host located in the EU.
- Yesterday and partly today, I spent a lot of time finding out more
details about Open Collective and also Software Freedom Conservancy.
So I'm ready to make some more detailed summary of the pros and cons. However, it must wait a while - probably to time after the release of R14.0.8 (it will be in a few days).
Thank you for the clarification, apologies for not understanding, I’d still rather off load that onto someone else though
On Sunday 26 April 2020 01:06:55 pm William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
We ought to create an online forum
Actually that’s on my to-do list; to prototype a TDE website using https://civicrm.org/ on https://backdropcms.org/ , I need the practice and it’s better to make all the newbie mistakes on a ‘free’ build ...
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And sources of income would be . . .
-donations -sales of swag (shirts, coffee mugs, bumper stickers, mouse pads . . .) -technical support of TDE in larger deployments, à la Red Hat? -paid feature requests?
- EU project funds
- local project funds
I will forget this if I don't post it now :( This is copy/pasta from a project I have in house atm.
==== Public Libraries? Yes we allow public libraries to ‘buy’ accounts for their patrons. Either you as an individual, your organization, or the library itself can pay to make that happen. We, obviously, must work directly with the library in question to setup API calls and the like for patron verification.
A somewhat painless way to get your public library funded is to use Amazon Smile (and other similar programs). You will need to coordinate with your library, but see About Amazon Smile ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=202035970 ) and https://org.amazon.com/ for information. ====
Amazon Smile would be a great/easy method to generate ‘cash,’ our household spends ~2k USD per year which would be ~10 to [TDE-ORG].
# # #
Hmmm, now I really do want to know where the best place to establish cheap NGOs would be...
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Anno domini 2020 Thu, 23 Apr 15:19:48 -0500 Michael scripsit:
And sources of income would be . . .
-donations -sales of swag (shirts, coffee mugs, bumper stickers, mouse pads . . .) -technical support of TDE in larger deployments, à la Red Hat? -paid feature requests?
- EU project funds
- local project funds
I will forget this if I don't post it now :( This is copy/pasta from a project I have in house atm.
==== Public Libraries? Yes we allow public libraries to ‘buy’ accounts for their patrons. Either you as an individual, your organization, or the library itself can pay to make that happen. We, obviously, must work directly with the library in question to setup API calls and the like for patron verification.
A somewhat painless way to get your public library funded is to use Amazon Smile (and other similar programs). You will need to coordinate with your library, but see About Amazon Smile ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=202035970 ) and https://org.amazon.com/ for information. ====
Amazon Smile would be a great/easy method to generate ‘cash,’ our household spends ~2k USD per year which would be ~10 to [TDE-ORG].
# # #
Hmmm, now I really do want to know where the best place to establish cheap NGOs would be...
Virtually all of these companies are under US jurisdiction. If you use their "service", you end up in a legal struggle that needs resolving with the help of some specialists aka lawyers, and that surely costs more than the "cheap" service.
just my 2¢
Nik
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Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Done that already for :) statistically every Austrian is member of at least 2 associations.
I was also thinking of Austria - so you can count on me - we need just one more. And I am off the statistics as I am (still) not a member of not-for-profit
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On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 21:46:20 -0500 Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 07:46:27 pm David C. Rankin wrote:
I haven't checked if TDE has any formal organization behind it that was created in the past few years, but if not, doing a quick non-profit may make sense.
Probably the best way with Tim 'owning' the non-profit.
In theory, we should probably incorporate, but this introduces accounting and tax-reporting requirements we haven't had to deal with up to this point. Still, we should move away from any single person being solely responsible for managing funds and resources—that's why we have a problem in the first place.
==========
You would be surprised. Many of the business forms S-Corp, LLC, etc... leave the formalities up to the officers or members, (In many small businesses, that means you are lucky if you can find the back of a napkin that contains an outline of any of the major decisions made...)
Michael is correct regarding the income and profit accounting requirements for non-profits being a bit more than for a for-profit company, but even there it is no more than basically keeping a checkbook and showing outflows went to support the stated purpose of the organization and not a trip to Disney for one of the members and his kids.
The benefit for TDE is that it would give the organization itself an existence and allow it to open a checking-account so it could handle the T-shirt type issues rather than it being some poor soul who has to do that through their personal checking account.
Being open-source, there isn't a lot of prospect for profits except through the support side of things (you could always become the Red-Hat of desktop environments :)
If in the US, you can pick any state and the filing requirements are generally ~$350 to the Secretary of State along with a 1-page form defining the purpose (which can be "For all legitimate purposes") and takes about 14 days to get the charter or articles of organization back. Many state SOS have a word or .pdf fill-in form available for download you can use for creation.
There aren't nearly as many onerous requirements imposed by operating as a separate entity as you may envision. It is a rather simple way that would put an official face to TDE and provide an identifiable group of folks that are the contacts and decision makers for things like the T-shirt issue, and handling any other of the business like needs for TDE.
Well worth considering.
On Tuesday 21 of April 2020 16:26:20 Thierry de Coulon wrote:
I like wearing polo shirts (they make T-shirts too actually) with something about Linux and I have found good, embroidered shirts from a Hungarian maker (he does the embroidering, not the shirts actually). I'm not putting the address here because I don't want that you believe I would be making business, I am just a customer there.
The point is he asked for suggestions, so I suggested TDE shirts - and he answered "I was a big fan of KDE3, so Trinity is close to my heart. I'm ready to make Trinity Desktop shirts, if the project can help me to promote them on the official website. Without the reach of the users, we won't send a piece for sure."
Well, so the question is to know if there would be any interrest and if "promoting" shirts on the website would be desired/possible. I don't suppose it would, but I just told him i'd ask.
Thierry
Hi all,
please let's pause this discussion at this time - I don't want to stop it completely, just pause.
Although I would also like to see the possibility of buying polo shirts, T-shirts and possibly other things, such as a mug, that could be used to donate the project, we must first discuss the legal status of the project and accounting.
Some time ago, we agreed with Tim to hand over the role of project leader - see http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::16035
Services that were on the original server are gradually migrated, but for example the "Donations" page is still unchanged. This means that donations work, but nowhere is it known how these donations are used.
Thanks to the fact that we received a donation of a physical machine from Integricloud (Tim), a donation of a virtual machine from vpsFree.org, we have contributors who manage mirrors, we continue to work on the project without having any own funds. However, it is time to discuss the situation and find a solution. My idea is that we should have transparent accounting so that we can accept donations and at the same time see what purposes they are used for.
Since we are currently busy preparing the release of TDE R14.0.8, I would like to discuss these things after the release of the new version. Therefore, I want to pause this discussion until then.
Cheers
On Wednesday 22 April 2020 21.17:41 Slávek Banko wrote:
Since we are currently busy preparing the release of TDE R14.0.8, I would like to discuss these things after the release of the new version. Therefore, I want to pause this discussion until then.
Cheers
No problem. And yes, a clear way to be able ton contribut funding TDE would be great, it's a problem to send money and have no clear idea if it was useful.
Dome sites have a donation goal and some "progress bar" to tell where we are. Just an idea for "after" :)
Thierry
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ajh-valmer -
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Michael -
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