Hi everyone! I wanted to share 2 icon themes for updating the look of TDE:
-Crystal SVG Updated http://www.filefactory.com/file/2sm4lju0j1ap/n/crystalsvg_zip This icon theme comes from PCLOS MiniME 2008 (KDE 3.5.x). I don't know if it is an official update of the old Crystal SVG or a theme made by the PCLOS team, but it is a more modern version of it.
-Oxygen for KDE3 http://www.filefactory.com/file/5w394u74iua9/n/oxy-tde_zip This is the theme used in my PCLinuxOS TDE non-official remaster. It comes from kde-look.org
I personally think that keeping the old Crystal SVG theme as the default theme is not good for the TDE project. The people who haven't used TDE will think that it is always the same old project as KDE3. It just looks too old and of course, the more actual Oxygen icon theme will go this way one day or another, but as of now, I think that it would be a good idea for TDE to use Oxygen or another icon theme, at least this updated version of Crystal SVG.
The same idea goes with the general theme. We aren't used to the ''vanilla KDE 3.5.10'' these days. Themes with big lines separating GUI elements aren't used anymore and even during the KDE 3.5.x days, almost no distros used the default theme.
This is just my personal opinion...
-Alexandre
Hi everyone! I wanted to share 2 icon themes for updating the look of TDE:
-Crystal SVG Updated http://www.filefactory.com/file/2sm4lju0j1ap/n/crystalsvg_zip This icon theme comes from PCLOS MiniME 2008 (KDE 3.5.x). I don't know if it is an official update of the old Crystal SVG or a theme made by the PCLOS team, but it is a more modern version of it.
-Oxygen for KDE3 http://www.filefactory.com/file/5w394u74iua9/n/oxy-tde_zip This is the theme used in my PCLinuxOS TDE non-official remaster. It comes from kde-look.org
I personally think that keeping the old Crystal SVG theme as the default theme is not good for the TDE project. The people who haven't used TDE will think that it is always the same old project as KDE3. It just looks too old and of course, the more actual Oxygen icon theme will go this way one day or another, but as of now, I think that it would be a good idea for TDE to use Oxygen or another icon theme, at least this updated version of Crystal SVG.
I still don't like the way Oxygen looks; most of the newer icon themes from the past few years seem rather dark and muddied, which can make finding a particular icon or GUI element difficult when many of them are shown on the screen.
Does a "modern", bright icon theme with relatively high contrast between icons even exist?
On the technical end, using newer icon themes means that Bug 1313 must first be be resolved...
The same idea goes with the general theme. We aren't used to the ''vanilla KDE 3.5.10'' these days. Themes with big lines separating GUI elements aren't used anymore and even during the KDE 3.5.x days, almost no distros used the default theme.
Which widget style are you referring to?
This is just my personal opinion...
Understood. :-) Thank you for your input!
-Alexandre
Tim
Hi everyone! I wanted to share 2 icon themes for updating the look of TDE:
-Crystal SVG Updated http://www.filefactory.com/file/2sm4lju0j1ap/n/crystalsvg_zip This icon theme comes from PCLOS MiniME 2008 (KDE 3.5.x). I don't know if it is an official update of the old Crystal SVG or a theme made by the PCLOS team, but it is a more modern version of it.
-Oxygen for KDE3 http://www.filefactory.com/file/5w394u74iua9/n/oxy-tde_zip This is the theme used in my PCLinuxOS TDE non-official remaster. It comes from kde-look.org
I personally think that keeping the old Crystal SVG theme as the default theme is not good for the TDE project. The people who haven't used TDE will think that it is always the same old project as KDE3. It just looks too old and of course, the more actual Oxygen icon theme will go this way one day or another, but as of now, I think that it would be a good idea for TDE to use Oxygen or another icon theme, at least this updated version of Crystal SVG.
I still don't like the way Oxygen looks; most of the newer icon themes from the past few years seem rather dark and muddied, which can make finding a particular icon or GUI element difficult when many of them are shown on the screen.
Does a "modern", bright icon theme with relatively high contrast between icons even exist?
On the technical end, using newer icon themes means that Bug 1313 must first be be resolved...
The same idea goes with the general theme. We aren't used to the ''vanilla KDE 3.5.10'' these days. Themes with big lines separating GUI elements aren't used anymore and even during the KDE 3.5.x days, almost no distros used the default theme.
Which widget style are you referring to?
This is just my personal opinion...
Understood. :-) Thank you for your input!
-Alexandre
Tim
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Hi all,
First I wish you all a great new year. Now, to get in the subject: The greatest looking icon theme I ever found (the one I still use) came long ago with the Baghira theme. The icons are very very nice. I must say I still use my own custom made (compiled) Baghira full theme because I love its look. Since Baghira is not suported anymore (for years now), its colorful icons could be reused?
My 2 cents on the subject... Pascal
On Thursday 03 January 2013 19:42:46 Timothy Pearson wrote:
The people who haven't used TDE will think that
it is always the same old project as KDE3. It just looks too old and of course, the more actual Oxygen icon theme will go this way one day or another, but as of now, I think that it would be a good idea for TDE to use Oxygen or another icon theme, at least this updated version of Crystal SVG.
It seems to me to be a pity the way things are changed purely because they are "old". For everyone who is scared off TDE because it looks too like KDE3, I would venture that there will be at least 2 who will heave a sigh of relief that _someone_ doesn't think that things should be changed purely to look "modern". If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Lisi
On 13-01-03 03:39 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Thursday 03 January 2013 19:42:46 Timothy Pearson wrote:
The people who haven't used TDE will think that
it is always the same old project as KDE3. It just looks too old and of course, the more actual Oxygen icon theme will go this way one day or another, but as of now, I think that it would be a good idea for TDE to use Oxygen or another icon theme, at least this updated version of Crystal SVG.
It seems to me to be a pity the way things are changed purely because they are "old". For everyone who is scared off TDE because it looks too like KDE3, I would venture that there will be at least 2 who will heave a sigh of relief that _someone_ doesn't think that things should be changed purely to look "modern". If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Lisi
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At least 3! Pascal
On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Thursday 03 January 2013 19:42:46 Timothy Pearson wrote:
The people who haven't used TDE will think that
it is always the same old project as KDE3. It just looks too old and of course, the more actual Oxygen icon theme will go this way one day or another, but as of now, I think that it would be a good idea for TDE to use Oxygen or another icon theme, at least this updated version of Crystal SVG.
It seems to me to be a pity the way things are changed purely because they are "old". For everyone who is scared off TDE because it looks too like KDE3, I would venture that there will be at least 2 who will heave a sigh of relief that _someone_ doesn't think that things should be changed purely to look "modern". If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Lisi
+1 Jonesy
On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Thursday 03 January 2013 19:42:46 Timothy Pearson wrote:
The people who haven't used TDE will think that
it is always the same old project as KDE3. It just looks too old and of course, the more actual Oxygen icon theme will go this way one day or another, but as of now, I think that it would be a good idea for TDE to use Oxygen or another icon theme, at least this updated version of Crystal SVG.
It seems to me to be a pity the way things are changed purely because they are "old". For everyone who is scared off TDE because it looks too like KDE3, I would venture that there will be at least 2 who will heave a sigh of relief that _someone_ doesn't think that things should be changed purely to look "modern". If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Lisi
+1 Jonesy
Hi everyone,
One thing I should say is that, of course, the icon theme has nothing to do with the quality of the desktop environment. It doesn't add or remove features to TDE. It might be my personal tastes, but when I boot in a live CD from 2005, I see that things are now made in a more modern way. Sometimes, it is more simple to do X thing and sometimes it is the same old thing, but it doesn't looks like it is from 10 or 15 years ago.
Now, in general UI themes, there is less borders and separators lines everywhere than back in the days of KDE 3.5.x. Compare a theme like QtCurve or like Oxygen to an older theme like Plastik. We don't have to use a theme that looks like what it was 12 years ago, back in the Win XP and 2000 era. It should be noted that we are in 2013.
Just my opinion...
-Alexandre
On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Thursday 03 January 2013 19:42:46 Timothy Pearson wrote:
The people who haven't used TDE will think that
it is always the same old project as KDE3. It just looks too old
and of
course, the more actual Oxygen icon theme will go this way one day
or
another, but as of now, I think that it would be a good idea for
TDE to
use Oxygen or another icon theme, at least this updated version of Crystal SVG.
It seems to me to be a pity the way things are changed purely because
they
are "old". For everyone who is scared off TDE because it looks too
like
KDE3, I would venture that there will be at least 2 who will heave a
sigh of
relief that _someone_ doesn't think that things should be changed
purely to
look "modern". If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Lisi
+1 Jonesy
Hi everyone,
One thing I should say is that, of course, the icon theme has nothing to do with the quality of the desktop environment. It doesn't add or remove features to TDE. It might be my personal tastes, but when I boot in a live CD from 2005, I see that things are now made in a more modern way. Sometimes, it is more simple to do X thing and sometimes it is the same old thing, but it doesn't looks like it is from 10 or 15 years ago.
Now, in general UI themes, there is less borders and separators lines everywhere than back in the days of KDE 3.5.x. Compare a theme like QtCurve or like Oxygen to an older theme like Plastik. We don't have to use a theme that looks like what it was 12 years ago, back in the Win XP and 2000 era. It should be noted that we are in 2013.
Just my opinion...
-Alexandre
This is just my opinion as well, but I have found that the removal of the separators and borders has made software more difficult to use and less organised, as developers can now just lump UI elements together in a great big jumble with no need to deal with logical grouping. The human eye lalso appears to look for outlines to categorise items; removing the outlines while leaving the same number of items therefore makes locating a specific item (or items which relate to a given item in terms of functionality) more difficult.
I suspect the grouping indicators were removed to save space on small screens, and when developers realised it also removed the difficult interface design task of showing similar UI elements in one particular location, this philosophy was applied to all applications. ;-)
Just my $0.04.
Tim
This is just my opinion as well, but I have found that the removal of the separators and borders has made software more difficult to use and less organised, as developers can now just lump UI elements together in a great big jumble with no need to deal with logical grouping. The human eye lalso appears to look for outlines to categorise items; removing the outlines while leaving the same number of items therefore makes locating a specific item (or items which relate to a given item in terms of functionality) more difficult.
Yes, it is true that grouping UI elements is good, but the lines can be smaller (or less obvious than a big black line), as in newer themes. By changing the theme, you can see that the separators are not removed, but replaced by smaller ones. Once again, not seeing the separators doesn't mean that the options will go everywhere in a crazy order :)
I suspect the grouping indicators were removed to save space on small screens, and when developers realised it also removed the difficult interface design task of showing similar UI elements in one particular location, this philosophy was applied to all applications. ;-)
Just my $0.04.
Tim
By searching more on kde-look.org, I found out that the updated Crystal SVG from PCLOS MiniMe 2008 was that new version of Crystal SVG. I wonder why it hasn't been choosed as the default icon theme for the last KDE 3.5.x series.
I found an interesting icon theme that integrates well with TDE with colorful icons, brighter than those of Oxygen. Of course, it is quite different of what we are used to, but it worth trying it. I will probably use it in the next release of my livecd. It looks very nice! http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/KFaenza?content=143890
-Alexandre
This is just my opinion as well, but I have found that the removal of the separators and borders has made software more difficult to use and less organised, as developers can now just lump UI elements together in a great big jumble with no need to deal with logical grouping. The human eye lalso appears to look for outlines to categorise items; removing the outlines while leaving the same number of items therefore makes locating a specific item (or items which relate to a given item in terms of functionality) more difficult.
Yes, it is true that grouping UI elements is good, but the lines can be smaller (or less obvious than a big black line), as in newer themes. By changing the theme, you can see that the separators are not removed, but replaced by smaller ones. Once again, not seeing the separators doesn't mean that the options will go everywhere in a crazy order :)
I would hope not, but I have observed more of this in newer applications...
Also, the separators are not very useful visually if one's eye cannot quickly pick them out of the background because they blend in too well. ;-)
By searching more on kde-look.org, I found out that the updated Crystal SVG from PCLOS MiniMe 2008 was that new version of Crystal SVG. I wonder why it hasn't been choosed as the default icon theme for the last KDE 3.5.x series.
I found an interesting icon theme that integrates well with TDE with colorful icons, brighter than those of Oxygen. Of course, it is quite different of what we are used to, but it worth trying it. I will probably use it in the next release of my livecd. It looks very nice! http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/KFaenza?content=143890
-Alexandre
The icon theme you liked to is quite nice, in my opinion far superior to Oxygen. Great find!
Tim
This is just my opinion as well, but I have found that the removal of the separators and borders has made software more difficult to use and less organised, as developers can now just lump UI elements together in a great big jumble with no need to deal with logical grouping. The human eye lalso appears to look for outlines to categorise items; removing the outlines while leaving the same number of items therefore makes locating a specific item (or items which relate to a given item in terms of functionality) more difficult.
Yes, it is true that grouping UI elements is good, but the lines can be smaller (or less obvious than a big black line), as in newer themes. By changing the theme, you can see that the separators are not removed, but replaced by smaller ones. Once again, not seeing the separators doesn't mean that the options will go everywhere in a crazy order :)
I would hope not, but I have observed more of this in newer applications...
Also, the separators are not very useful visually if one's eye cannot quickly pick them out of the background because they blend in too well. ;-)
By searching more on kde-look.org, I found out that the updated Crystal SVG from PCLOS MiniMe 2008 was that new version of Crystal SVG. I wonder why it hasn't been choosed as the default icon theme for the last KDE 3.5.x series.
I found an interesting icon theme that integrates well with TDE with colorful icons, brighter than those of Oxygen. Of course, it is quite different of what we are used to, but it worth trying it. I will probably use it in the next release of my livecd. It looks very nice! http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/KFaenza?content=143890
-Alexandre
The icon theme you liked to is quite nice, in my opinion far superior to Oxygen. Great find!
Tim
Sorry, that should read "linked to" and "far superior than". Typing too fast...
Tim
On Friday 04 January 2013 02:03:53 Timothy Pearson wrote:
Sorry, that should read "linked to" and "far superior than". Typing too fast...
In American do you say "superior than"? I've never noticed that before. Though I still react to "different than", although I have been hearing it for years.
Here we correctly say "superior to", it doesn't mean a typo!!
Lisi
By searching more on kde-look.org, I found out that the updated Crystal SVG from PCLOS MiniMe 2008 was that new version of Crystal SVG. I wonder why it hasn't been choosed as the default icon theme for the last KDE 3.5.x series.
I found an interesting icon theme that integrates well with TDE with colorful icons, brighter than those of Oxygen. Of course, it is quite different of what we are used to, but it worth trying it. I will probably use it in the next release of my livecd. It looks very nice! http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/KFaenza?content=143890
-Alexandre
The icon theme you liked to is quite nice, in my opinion far superior to Oxygen. Great find!
Tim
Have you tried to use it? I was surprised to see how an icon theme pack made for KDE 4.x still works well on TDE. Some icons are missing, but the ''fallback'' icons of Crystal SVG fits very well with it.
These icons are colorful and distinctive. They are brighter than those of Oxygen. By adopting an icon theme that is completely different of what Gnome and Kde is using, I think that it would really ''upgrade'' and improve the look of TDE and create its own image as another desktop environment.
I know that most of the persons here are still very attached to Crystal SVG, but I think that a nicer and more modern icon theme is really what TDE needs. Saying that doesn't mean that Crystal SVG has to be removed forever... It can also be available in the icon theme list as well. I totally understand that some persons here don't want Oxygen for a reason or another. They probably don't like KDE 4.x at all so much that they don't want to see Oxygen on they TDE desktop.
I would like this option to be considered for a future release of TDE and I will use it for the next release of my livecd.
Still just my opinion :)
-Alexandre
--- On Fri, 1/4/13, Alexandre Couture ac586133@hotmail.com wrote:
By searching more on kde-look.org, I found out that the updated Crystal SVG from PCLOS MiniMe 2008 was that new version of Crystal SVG. I wonder why it hasn't been choosed as the default icon theme for the last KDE 3.5.x series.
I found an interesting icon theme that integrates well with TDE with colorful icons, brighter than those of Oxygen. Of course, it is quite different of what we are used to, but it worth trying it. I will probably use it in the next release of my livecd. It looks very nice! http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/KFaenza?content=143890
-Alexandre
The icon theme you liked to is quite nice, in my opinion far superior to Oxygen. Great find!
Tim
Have you tried to use it? I was surprised to see how an icon theme pack made for KDE 4.x still works well on TDE. Some icons are missing, but the ''fallback'' icons of Crystal SVG fits very well with it.
These icons are colorful and distinctive. They are brighter than those of Oxygen. By adopting an icon theme that is completely different of what Gnome and Kde is using, I think that it would really ''upgrade'' and improve the look of TDE and create its own image as another desktop environment.
I know that most of the persons here are still very attached to Crystal SVG, but I think that a nicer and more modern icon theme is really what TDE needs. Saying that doesn't mean that Crystal SVG has to be removed forever... It can also be available in the icon theme list as well. I totally understand that some persons here don't want Oxygen for a reason or another. They probably don't like KDE 4.x at all so much that they don't want to see Oxygen on they TDE desktop.
I would like this option to be considered for a future release of TDE and I will use it for the next release of my livecd.
Still just my opinion :)
-Alexandre
I took a look and I agree that it's a very nice icon theme and would make a fine default for TDE. I also think there is nothing wrong with the current default and I'm another one who does not wish to rush into something simply because it's more "modern". Things such as icons and window borders are not high art, they should be attractive but utilitarian aids to our computer use. I dislike both the garish and the washed out that change for change's sake has often brought us. OTOH, as long as we still have at least a few reasonable choices there is no reason to get excited about this. We can set up our own machines the way we want them for the way we work with them. Nobody is forced to use the defaults. Linux and FOSS are all about choice. TDE users should know this as well as anybody. :-) Which prompts me to thank Tim, Slavek, Alexandre, David Hare, and everyone else who helps make TDE possible and as usable and polished as it is. Thank you! Andy
On Friday 04 January 2013 13:55:01 Andy Vet Rep wrote:
Saying that doesn't mean that Crystal SVG has to be removed forever... It can also be available in the icon theme list as well.
Surely that also means that if Oxygen were available you could chose that? Why are you so sure that everybody who is not currently using TDE would leap at it if Oxygen were used?
Experience in other media (e.g. Radio 4, a broadcasting channel, here) is that if you change and "modernise" in order to bring in the young, which radio 4 did, and what I suspect you may mean when you say that people will be put off, you will probably not bring in the young, who will still not like it, but you will lose those you have already got. Radio 4 had to change back, and last time I checked had still not regained all its lost listeners.
Our Post Office decided that it needed a sparkly new "modern" name. It changed to, I think, Consignia. It was a disaster and they had to change back.
As you say, you can change things on your live CD and people have to be, and I hope are, grateful for what they get.
I have used - and been grateful for - it. I used to use PCLOS as one of my library of Live CDs, but dropped it when they went to KDE4. It is nice to have it back! But I find the desktop so off-putting to look at, even temporarily, that I change it immediately, as soon as it boots up. I know, however, that there are those who love your choice at the moment.
Clearly my opinion about TDE is no more important than yours, possibly less so, and you have the support of Tim, whose opinion clearly matters a lot more than mine. But the majority of those who have posted on this list think as I do that change for change's sake is not a good idea. As I said, if it ain't broke don't fix it. :-)
Lisi
Am Freitag, 4. Januar 2013 schrieb Lisi Reisz:
On Friday 04 January 2013 13:55:01 Andy Vet Rep wrote:
Saying that doesn't mean that Crystal SVG has to be removed forever... It can also be available in the icon theme list as well.
Surely that also means that if Oxygen were available you could chose that? Why are you so sure that everybody who is not currently using TDE would leap at it if Oxygen were used?
Experience in other media (e.g. Radio 4, a broadcasting channel, here) is that if you change and "modernise" in order to bring in the young, which radio 4 did, and what I suspect you may mean when you say that people will be put off, you will probably not bring in the young, who will still not like it, but you will lose those you have already got. Radio 4 had to change back, and last time I checked had still not regained all its lost listeners.
Our Post Office decided that it needed a sparkly new "modern" name. It changed to, I think, Consignia. It was a disaster and they had to change back.
As you say, you can change things on your live CD and people have to be, and I hope are, grateful for what they get.
I have used - and been grateful for - it. I used to use PCLOS as one of my library of Live CDs, but dropped it when they went to KDE4. It is nice to have it back! But I find the desktop so off-putting to look at, even temporarily, that I change it immediately, as soon as it boots up. I know, however, that there are those who love your choice at the moment.
Clearly my opinion about TDE is no more important than yours, possibly less so, and you have the support of Tim, whose opinion clearly matters a lot more than mine. But the majority of those who have posted on this list think as I do that change for change's sake is not a good idea. As I said, if it ain't broke don't fix it. :-)
Lisi
+1
Nik
Am Freitag, 4. Januar 2013 schrieb Lisi Reisz:
On Friday 04 January 2013 13:55:01 Andy Vet Rep wrote:
Saying that doesn't mean that Crystal SVG has to be removed forever... It can also be available in the icon theme list as well.
Surely that also means that if Oxygen were available you could chose that? Why are you so sure that everybody who is not currently using TDE would leap at it if Oxygen were used?
Experience in other media (e.g. Radio 4, a broadcasting channel, here) is that if you change and "modernise" in order to bring in the young, which radio 4 did, and what I suspect you may mean when you say that people will be put off, you will probably not bring in the young, who will still not like it, but you will lose those you have already got. Radio 4 had to change back, and last time I checked had still not regained all its lost listeners.
Our Post Office decided that it needed a sparkly new "modern" name. It changed to, I think, Consignia. It was a disaster and they had to change back.
As you say, you can change things on your live CD and people have to be, and I hope are, grateful for what they get.
I have used - and been grateful for - it. I used to use PCLOS as one of my library of Live CDs, but dropped it when they went to KDE4. It is nice to have it back! But I find the desktop so off-putting to look at, even temporarily, that I change it immediately, as soon as it boots up. I know, however, that there are those who love your choice at the moment.
Clearly my opinion about TDE is no more important than yours, possibly less so, and you have the support of Tim, whose opinion clearly matters a lot more than mine. But the majority of those who have posted on this list think as I do that change for change's sake is not a good idea. As I said, if it ain't broke don't fix it. :-)
Lisi
+1
Nik
My point of view is that the point of using TDE over KDE 4.x is that it is the most polished feature-full desktop environment. It has a great working flow that is more logical to me than what they call Plasma desktop and it is much faster, thanks to Qt3. I completely agree that if changes are made, they have to be made right. It would not be a good idea to change icon theme for something uglier and nonfunctional.
BUT it is on the feature and usability point of view. If we can find a way to modernize the appearance of TDE, it will probably bring more people and distros to use it.
A question to ask ourself is: ''Why do we paint back the walls at home after a certain amount of time?'' Of course it's the same walls, but it brings something new, fresher, without making the house completely nonfunctional.
Still just my opinion...
Have a nice day! -Alexandre
On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Alexandre Couture wrote:
A question to ask ourself is: ''Why do we paint back the walls at home after a certain amount of time?'' Of course it's the same walls, but it brings something new, fresher, without making the house completely nonfunctional.
I actually like bare walls and would only paint them if they got dirty.
more on topic: I chose TDE precisely because the interface is quiet and 'not an issue'; and I don't know the empirical basis for the claim that changing icons as you propose would draw more users.
nonethless, perhaps on installation one could add a frame which suggests themes people might want to choose aside from the default.
I just spent part of last night ripping "plasma workspaces" out of a tde+kubuntu install. when I see the tde interface, it's as if my eyes sigh in relief and then the interface almost disappears, kind of like putting on one's glasses: at first one notices that one can see and then gets on with looking at stuff to do.
F.
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 13:24:15 -0500 From: davisf@union.edu To: trinity-users@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Subject: RE: [trinity-users] Icon themes for TDE
more on topic: I chose TDE precisely because the interface is quiet and 'not an issue'; and I don't know the empirical basis for the claim that changing icons as you propose would draw more users. When a new release of TDE will be out, reviewers from many websites willreview it and might put screenshots of TDE on their review.
If these screenshots always looks exactly like the previous version, or even likeKDE 3.5.x, those who will take a look at the review might think that no improvementhas been made to the product. If it is a little different, it might catch the attentionof the readers and they might try TDE. New releases are the time where attention isbrought to a project as much for new users as for new developers.
nonethless, perhaps on installation one could add a frame which suggests themes people might want to choose aside from the default.
Completely agree with you on this. I think that it is the point of Kpersonalizer.It could be improved to provide more choices. Thinking about it, it doesn't evenshow ALL the themes available in the theme list...Good idea! -Alexandre
<snip>
Clearly my opinion about TDE is no more important than yours, possibly less so, and you have the support of Tim, whose opinion clearly matters a lot more than mine. But the majority of those who have posted on this list think as I do that change for change's sake is not a good idea. As I said, if it ain't broke don't fix it. :-)
Lisi
Actually I am in favor of keeping Crystal SVG as the TDE default for a number of reasons, but on the same token it would not hurt to explore functional alternatives to the ubiquitous Oxygen/Gnome icon sets for those users who want a newer look.
I'm not sure where you picked up that Alexandre's suggestions to replace Crystal SVG had my support. ;-)
Tim
On Friday 04 January 2013 09:53:27 you wrote:
<snip>
Clearly my opinion about TDE is no more important than yours, possibly less so, and you have the support of Tim, whose opinion clearly matters a lot more than mine. But the majority of those who have posted on this list think as I do that change for change's sake is not a good idea. As I said, if it ain't broke don't fix it. :-)
Lisi
Actually I am in favor of keeping Crystal SVG as the TDE default for a number of reasons, but on the same token it would not hurt to explore functional alternatives to the ubiquitous Oxygen/Gnome icon sets for those users who want a newer look.
I'm not sure where you picked up that Alexandre's suggestions to replace Crystal SVG had my support. ;-)
Tim
I use 'KDE Classic', not sure what that is in other terms. Icons & desktops do not interest me though. I don't use icons to initiate tasks, rarely if ever, see my desktop.
One huge factor for using TDE is it is the same, I don't want to learn the latest Linux desktop ontology while trying to meet a deadline at work, ergo the use of TDE.
-- Peace,
Greg
On Friday 04 January 2013 18:53:27 Timothy Pearson wrote:
<snip>
Clearly my opinion about TDE is no more important than yours, possibly less so, and you have the support of Tim, whose opinion clearly matters a lot more than mine. But the majority of those who have posted on this list think as I do that change for change's sake is not a good idea. As I said, if it ain't broke don't fix it. :-)
Lisi
Actually I am in favor of keeping Crystal SVG as the TDE default for a number of reasons, but on the same token it would not hurt to explore functional alternatives to the ubiquitous Oxygen/Gnome icon sets for those users who want a newer look.
I'm not sure where you picked up that Alexandre's suggestions to replace Crystal SVG had my support. ;-)
<quote>
Now, in general UI themes, there is less borders and separators lines everywhere than back in the days of KDE 3.5.x. Compare a theme like QtCurve or like Oxygen to an older theme like Plastik. We don't have to use a theme that looks like what it was 12 years ago, back in the Win XP and 2000 era. It should be noted that we are in 2013.
Just my opinion...
-Alexandre
This is just my opinion as well, [snip] Tim </quote>
On Friday 04 January 2013 09:14:53 Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Friday 04 January 2013 13:55:01 Andy Vet Rep wrote:
Saying that doesn't mean that Crystal SVG has to be removed forever... It can also be available in the icon theme list as well.
Surely that also means that if Oxygen were available you could chose that? Why are you so sure that everybody who is not currently using TDE would leap at it if Oxygen were used?
Experience in other media (e.g. Radio 4, a broadcasting channel, here) is that if you change and "modernise" in order to bring in the young, which radio 4 did, and what I suspect you may mean when you say that people will be put off, you will probably not bring in the young, who will still not like it, but you will lose those you have already got. Radio 4 had to change back, and last time I checked had still not regained all its lost listeners.
Our Post Office decided that it needed a sparkly new "modern" name. It changed to, I think, Consignia. It was a disaster and they had to change back.
As you say, you can change things on your live CD and people have to be, and I hope are, grateful for what they get.
I have used - and been grateful for - it. I used to use PCLOS as one of my library of Live CDs, but dropped it when they went to KDE4. It is nice to have it back! But I find the desktop so off-putting to look at, even temporarily, that I change it immediately, as soon as it boots up. I know, however, that there are those who love your choice at the moment.
Clearly my opinion about TDE is no more important than yours, possibly less so, and you have the support of Tim, whose opinion clearly matters a lot more than mine. But the majority of those who have posted on this list think as I do that change for change's sake is not a good idea. As I said, if it ain't broke don't fix it. :-)
Lisi
I have to agree with everything you have said here. What I wonder is why the older themes had to be removed? I'm sure that there are plenty of people like me who are perfectly happy with the old themes, but are discouraged when they are dropped from the package.
Leslie
From: jlturriff@centurytel.net To: trinity-users@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 15:21:15 -0600 Subject: Re: [trinity-users] Icon themes for TDE
Lisi
I have to agree with everything you have said here. What I wonder is why the older themes had to be removed? I'm sure that there are plenty of people like me who are perfectly happy with the old themes, but are discouraged when they are dropped from the package.
Leslie
Have I ever said that is has to be removed completely? It can always stay in the icon theme list. I have no problem with keeping Crystal SVG available.
I think that what could be a good option is to modify Kpersonalizer to: 1. Ensure that every themes are in the list (it isn't like that as of now) 2. Add a page to let the user choose between a ''TDE classic'' theme and a ''TDE modern'' theme
Have a nice day! -Alexandre
On Friday 04 January 2013 22:45:23 Alexandre Couture wrote:
- Add a page to let the user choose between a ''TDE classic'' theme and a
''TDE modern'' theme
It is already there. It is one of the questions asked in the Set Up Wizard that appears before TDE ever opens. There is no reason why other themes should not be added, but please let the rest of us have what we want, and leave the default alone.
You have still adduced no evidence that changing the default would attract so many as one more user, but it is clear that "modernising" TDE would lose users.
I never change the colour of my walls. They are plain, and I just wash or refresh them when they are dirty.
Lisi
From: lisi.reisz@gmail.com To: trinity-users@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 23:16:12 +0000 Subject: Re: [trinity-users] Icon themes for TDE
On Friday 04 January 2013 22:45:23 Alexandre Couture wrote:
- Add a page to let the user choose between a ''TDE classic'' theme and a
''TDE modern'' theme
It is already there. It is one of the questions asked in the Set Up Wizard that appears before TDE ever opens. There is no reason why other themes should not be added, but please let the rest of us have what we want, and leave the default alone.
You have still adduced no evidence that changing the default would attract so many as one more user, but it is clear that "modernising" TDE would lose users.
As I wrote 2 or 3 messages ago: When a new release of TDE will be out, reviewers from many websites willreview it and might put screenshots of TDE on their review. If these screenshots always looks exactly like the previous version, or even likeKDE 3.5.x, those who will take a look at the review might think that no improvementhas been made to the product. If it is a little different, it might catch the attentionof the readers and they might try TDE. New releases are the time where attention isbrought to a project as much for new users as for new developers.
I never change the colour of my walls. They are plain, and I just wash or refresh them when they are dirty.
Lisi
It's not such a big problem! It's getting ridiculous! I think I'll stop talking about it right here!
-Alexandre
On Friday 04 January 2013 06:44:59 pm Alexandre Couture wrote:
As I wrote 2 or 3 messages ago: When a new release of TDE will be out, reviewers from many websites willreview it and might put screenshots of TDE on their review. If these screenshots always looks exactly like the previous version, or even likeKDE 3.5.x, those who will take a look at the review might think that no improvementhas been made to the product. If it is a little different, it might catch the attentionof the readers and they might try TDE. New releases are the time where attention isbrought to a project as much for new users as for new developers.
IMHO this is a perfectly reasonable argument and perhaps should be tried.
No one is forced to keep the default icons. In fact it is extremely easy to change them, even *I* can do it. :-)
And if changing the default icons upsets too many people, it would still be a good idea to showcase something a little different in some screenshots.
Today must be a *really* slow news day.
Andy
true.. give the devs a break... There doing (all the coding) good, hard stuff .. cosmetics anyone with 1/8th unix brain can switch up/out. Its nice they've come to a point where they can/want to change some look, or who cares. Never criticize about trivial, constructive is okay when its valid but you can learn to do things the simpler things on your own and encourage the devs about the great work thus far. KDE3 3.5.10 etc., was incredible... TDE is incredible and if the developers want to change something, let it b... else one day you might just find yourself w/o a choice and back to the conglomerate garbage top(s) KDE4/5/6 / or Winblows XX. Damn, there I go criticizing .. c wut u did : )
--- On Fri, 1/4/13, Andy andy4stuff@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Andy andy4stuff@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [trinity-users] Icon themes for TDE To: trinity-users@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Received: Friday, January 4, 2013, 7:24 PM
On Friday 04 January 2013 06:44:59 pm Alexandre Couture wrote:
As I wrote 2 or 3 messages ago: When a new release of TDE will be out, reviewers from many websites willreview it and might put screenshots of TDE on their review. If these screenshots always looks exactly like the previous version, or even likeKDE 3.5.x, those who will take a look at the review might think that no improvementhas been made to the product. If it is a little different, it might catch the attentionof the readers and they might try TDE. New releases are the time where attention isbrought to a project as much for new users as for new developers.
IMHO this is a perfectly reasonable argument and perhaps should be tried.
No one is forced to keep the default icons. In fact it is extremely easy to change them, even *I* can do it. :-)
And if changing the default icons upsets too many people, it would still be a good idea to showcase something a little different in some screenshots.
Today must be a *really* slow news day.
Andy
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The oxygen icon set for 3x has been around since before 4x was released. I actually like it, That icon set (without the rest of the oxygen theme) has been used here for some years on 3x now TDE. It is rather large (69 MB)
crystalsvg is however a perfectly good default, users add what they want.
David
It's not such a big problem! It's getting ridiculous! I think I'll stop talking about it right here!
-Alexandre
I have no problem considering new ideas, however any new themes should be well thought out with the project goals in mind. Oxygen immediately fails the usability/accessibility test, with the muddy Oxygen icon and widget styles both causing significant regressions in UI element differentiation (some would argue that this is just the "modern look", but I say that this sacrifices usability/accessibility (something objective) for look+feel (something subjective).
The other icon theme that Alexandre linked to does not immediately fail the usability test, so it should be evaluated on other aspects such as how well TDE can utilise its various icons, completeness, the overall level of polish from an artistic perspective, etc.
Tim
On Fri, 4 Jan 2013 18:42:42 -0600 "Timothy Pearson" kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net wrote:
It's not such a big problem! It's getting ridiculous! I think I'll stop talking about it right here!
-Alexandre
I have no problem considering new ideas, however any new themes should be well thought out with the project goals in mind. Oxygen immediately fails the usability/accessibility test, with the muddy Oxygen icon and widget styles both causing significant regressions in UI element differentiation (some would argue that this is just the "modern look", but I say that this sacrifices usability/accessibility (something objective) for look+feel (something subjective).
The other icon theme that Alexandre linked to does not immediately fail the usability test, so it should be evaluated on other aspects such as how well TDE can utilise its various icons, completeness, the overall level of polish from an artistic perspective, etc.
Tim
Plus, wasn't doing the whole TDE thing the reason - look, feel, workability and intuitiveness of kde 3.x - to get back to that in the first place? If all this 'new', 'modern' stuff was som much needed/wanted, then everyone would simply stick with a distro that *uses* all those 'new' and 'modern' things.
JB
On Friday 04 January 2013 16:45:23 Alexandre Couture wrote:
From: jlturriff@centurytel.net To: trinity-users@lists.pearsoncomputing.net Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 15:21:15 -0600 Subject: Re: [trinity-users] Icon themes for TDE
Lisi
I have to agree with everything you have said here. What I wonder is why the older themes had to be removed? I'm sure that there are plenty of people like me who are perfectly happy with the old themes, but are discouraged when they are dropped from the package.
Leslie
Have I ever said that is has to be removed completely? It can always stay in the icon theme list. I have no problem with keeping Crystal SVG available.
I think that what could be a good option is to modify Kpersonalizer to:
- Ensure that every themes are in the list (it isn't like that as of now)
- Add a page to let the user choose between a ''TDE classic'' theme and a
''TDE modern'' theme
Have a nice day! -Alexandre
I did not say that you are advocating removing anything; I should have made myself clearer. It seems to me that even before the switch from KDE3 to KDE4 a lot of components like icon sets were replaced with newer, "better" ones, and older ones were dropped.
Leslie
On Thu, 3 Jan 2013 20:39:34 +0000 Lisi Reisz lisi.reisz@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday 03 January 2013 19:42:46 Timothy Pearson wrote:
The people who haven't used TDE will think that
it is always the same old project as KDE3. It just looks too old and of course, the more actual Oxygen icon theme will go this way one day or another, but as of now, I think that it would be a good idea for TDE to use Oxygen or another icon theme, at least this updated version of Crystal SVG.
It seems to me to be a pity the way things are changed purely because they are "old". For everyone who is scared off TDE because it looks too like KDE3, I would venture that there will be at least 2 who will heave a sigh of relief that _someone_ doesn't think that things should be changed purely to look "modern". If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Lisi
I truly miss the icons and themes of the old KDE's. They were crisp and clean and not "muddied" as another poster said many of the new ones are (which I agree with).
And I've been saying that other thing for years on other forums with other things (the pwc drivers for Philips webcam's is just one that comes to mind)...it seems though that folks becoming devs nowadays have never heard such sayings and oftentimes seem to not care.
JB
On Thursday 03 January 2013 22:16:15 JB wrote:
I truly miss the icons and themes of the old KDE's. They were crisp and clean and not "muddied" as another poster said many of the new ones are (which I agree with).
Quite!
And I've been saying that other thing for years on other forums with other things (the pwc drivers for Philips webcam's is just one that comes to mind)...it seems though that folks becoming devs nowadays have never heard such sayings and oftentimes seem to not care.
:-) As soon as I hear the word "dated" I start to squirm!
Did you hear about the London Millennium bridge? They call it the wobbly bridge. (I just put "the wobbly bridge" into Google. I was offered ten pages of hits!)
It was designed by an architect (I ask you! Have they not heard of engineers??). He designed it to be new and exciting and *modern*. He deliberately designed it in a way that no bridge had ever been designed before.
He found out why no bridge had ever been designed that way before, as soon as they opened it. It is a pedestrian bridge. As the first batch of people (a large batch, mind you) crossed it, it started to sway. Not an imperceptible amount. A pronounced sway, like a child's crib. They had to close it and put in struts. It is now functional, but not beautiful.
Hopefully, next time London needs a bridge they will employ an engineer!
Lisi
I just changed my Wheezy system from 3.5.13.2 to "nightly builds" using dist-upgrade. This has nothing to do with any live-cd's.
Kaffeine and amarok won't work (both are essential here)
Loading of player part 'XinePart' failed. All Video Drivers failed to initialize!
:~$ amarok Amarok: [Loader] Starting amarokapp.. Amarok: [Loader] Don't run gdb, valgrind, etc. against this binary! Use amarokapp. TQLayout "unnamed" added to TQVBox "unnamed", which already has a layout TQLayout: Adding KToolBar/mainToolBar (child of TQVBox/unnamed) to layout for PlaylistWindow/PlaylistWindow TQObject::connect: Incompatible sender/receiver arguments StarManager::ratingsColorsChanged() --> ContextBrowser::ratingOrScoreOrLabelsChanged(const TQString&)
Kaffeine opens but if I try to play a video file :
Loading of player part 'XinePart' failed. All Video Drivers failed to initialize!
Same if I use from the kaffeine menu: settings > xine engine parameters
Anyone else confirm this? Anyone else got kaffeine and amarok working with wheezy/sid and "nightly builds"?
Also kuser does not have proper defaults to add a new user, it wants to make new user ID 500 with no default groups and <Empty> login shell
Kdm-trinity had to be manually uninstalled and /etc/X11/default-display-manager manually edited to get tdm working
Menu transparency does not work
System misconfiguration here can't be ruled out of course but I can't see why that should be. Need to get this sorted, squeeze will soon be "old-stable"
David
On Friday 04 of January 2013 01:11:32 David Hare wrote:
I just changed my Wheezy system from 3.5.13.2 to "nightly builds" using dist-upgrade. This has nothing to do with any live-cd's.
Kaffeine and amarok won't work (both are essential here)
Loading of player part 'XinePart' failed. All Video Drivers failed to initialize!
:~$ amarok
Amarok: [Loader] Starting amarokapp.. Amarok: [Loader] Don't run gdb, valgrind, etc. against this binary! Use amarokapp. TQLayout "unnamed" added to TQVBox "unnamed", which already has a layout TQLayout: Adding KToolBar/mainToolBar (child of TQVBox/unnamed) to layout for PlaylistWindow/PlaylistWindow TQObject::connect: Incompatible sender/receiver arguments StarManager::ratingsColorsChanged() --> ContextBrowser::ratingOrScoreOrLabelsChanged(const TQString&)
Kaffeine opens but if I try to play a video file :
Loading of player part 'XinePart' failed. All Video Drivers failed to initialize!
Same if I use from the kaffeine menu: settings > xine engine parameters
Anyone else confirm this? Anyone else got kaffeine and amarok working with wheezy/sid and "nightly builds"?
Also kuser does not have proper defaults to add a new user, it wants to make new user ID 500 with no default groups and <Empty> login shell
Kdm-trinity had to be manually uninstalled and /etc/X11/default-display-manager manually edited to get tdm working
Menu transparency does not work
System misconfiguration here can't be ruled out of course but I can't see why that should be. Need to get this sorted, squeeze will soon be "old-stable"
David
Please, you have used xdg-r14-update to update your profile?
By the way, now are available in my PPA also 3.5.13.2 (preliminary) packages built for Wheezy. But I have not tested it - I do not have a test machine with Wheezy (yet).
Slavek --
On 04/01/13 02:14, Slávek Banko wrote:
On Friday 04 of January 2013 01:11:32 David Hare wrote:
I just changed my Wheezy system from 3.5.13.2 to "nightly builds" using dist-upgrade. This has nothing to do with any live-cd's.
Kaffeine and amarok won't work (both are essential here)
Loading of player part 'XinePart' failed. All Video Drivers failed to initialize!
:~$ amarok
Amarok: [Loader] Starting amarokapp.. Amarok: [Loader] Don't run gdb, valgrind, etc. against this binary! Use amarokapp. TQLayout "unnamed" added to TQVBox "unnamed", which already has a layout TQLayout: Adding KToolBar/mainToolBar (child of TQVBox/unnamed) to layout for PlaylistWindow/PlaylistWindow TQObject::connect: Incompatible sender/receiver arguments StarManager::ratingsColorsChanged() --> ContextBrowser::ratingOrScoreOrLabelsChanged(const TQString&)
Kaffeine opens but if I try to play a video file :
Loading of player part 'XinePart' failed. All Video Drivers failed to initialize!
Same if I use from the kaffeine menu: settings> xine engine parameters
Anyone else confirm this? Anyone else got kaffeine and amarok working with wheezy/sid and "nightly builds"?
Also kuser does not have proper defaults to add a new user, it wants to make new user ID 500 with no default groups and<Empty> login shell
Kdm-trinity had to be manually uninstalled and /etc/X11/default-display-manager manually edited to get tdm working
Menu transparency does not work
System misconfiguration here can't be ruled out of course but I can't see why that should be. Need to get this sorted, squeeze will soon be "old-stable"
David
Please, you have used xdg-r14-update to update your profile?
By the way, now are available in my PPA also 3.5.13.2 (preliminary) packages built for Wheezy. But I have not tested it - I do not have a test machine with Wheezy (yet).
Slavek
What is xdg-r14-update?
A couple of days ago I used the (squeeze) axis repo for a dist-upgrade on the same wheezy system. Some packages would not install and I had to revert. Previously a few libs from squeeze allowed TDE install to wheezy.
I did not know there were packages there for wheezy. I will test them later.
Still, I must get amarok and kaffeine working. I did create a new user but no difference.
David
On Friday 04 of January 2013 03:44:52 David Hare wrote:
What is xdg-r14-update?
A couple of days ago I used the (squeeze) axis repo for a dist-upgrade on the same wheezy system. Some packages would not install and I had to revert. Previously a few libs from squeeze allowed TDE install to wheezy.
I did not know there were packages there for wheezy. I will test them later.
Still, I must get amarok and kaffeine working. I did create a new user but no difference.
Sorry, typo, it's r14-xdg-update. Is used to update an existing user profile for R14. But when it does not work with the new profile, then neither r14-xdg-update does not help.
3.5.13.2 (preliminary) packages for Wheezy I uploaded a few days ago. For amd64 and i386 are already built, so it can be tested.
Slavek --
I have installed to a clean Wheezy selective TDE packages, enough to run a basic desktop, using Slavek's repo for Wheezy.
The problem with Kaffeine is as before. Amarok, not tried yet.
Neither could I get kaffeine working in wheezy with official 3.5.13.1 (using the few necessary dependency libs from Squeeze)
It looks like there is incompatibility with newer Xine stuff which likely affects Amarok as well.
This is a major setback, I want to move my main system to Wheezy with TDE desktop
David
On Thursday 03 January 2013 08:19:35 Alexandre Couture wrote:
Hi everyone! I wanted to share 2 icon themes for updating the look of TDE:
-Crystal SVG Updated http://www.filefactory.com/file/2sm4lju0j1ap/n/crystalsvg_zip This icon theme comes from PCLOS MiniME 2008 (KDE 3.5.x). I don't know if it is an official update of the old Crystal SVG or a theme made by the PCLOS team, but it is a more modern version of it.
-Oxygen for KDE3 http://www.filefactory.com/file/5w394u74iua9/n/oxy-tde_zip This is the theme used in my PCLinuxOS TDE non-official remaster. It comes from kde-look.org
I personally think that keeping the old Crystal SVG theme as the default theme is not good for the TDE project. The people who haven't used TDE will think that it is always the same old project as KDE3. It just looks too old and of course, the more actual Oxygen icon theme will go this way one day or another, but as of now, I think that it would be a good idea for TDE to use Oxygen or another icon theme, at least this updated version of Crystal SVG.
The same idea goes with the general theme. We aren't used to the ''vanilla KDE 3.5.10'' these days. Themes with big lines separating GUI elements aren't used anymore and even during the KDE 3.5.x days, almost no distros used the default theme.
This is just my personal opinion...
-Alexandre
One of the main reasons I gave up on KDE4 was that all of the easily viewable icon themes of KDE3 had been dropped in favour of low-contrast pastel icons, which my ageing eyes have trouble distinguishing. I really don't see anything wrong with good ol' hi-color classic. Why change a good thing?
Leslie
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Alexandre Couture -
Andy -
Andy Vet Rep
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David Hare -
Felmon Davis -
Greg Madden -
Jay L. Klepacs -
JB -
Leslie Turriff -
Lisi Reisz -
Marvin Jones -
Nikolaus Klepp -
Pascal Viandier -
Slávek Banko -
Timothy Pearson