On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 07:38:03 +0200 "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" office@klepp.biz wrote:

Am Donnerstag, 6. April 2017 schrieb Jan Kleks:

...

Here's the news: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/ ubuntu-unity-is-dead-desktop-will-switch-back-to-gnome-next-year/

I guess this would be essential for increasing Wayland adoption. And when it comes to Wayland and the TDE, could you create a bug-tracker ticket so that we can track progress (even if very slow) for TDE's Wayland support, please?

It may be m ignorance, but I have never met Wayland in the wild. What does it do, that X11 does not?

It's easier for developers to maintain and extend. X11 is a mass of crufty old code, vestigial organs whose functions have been taken over by other programs, and half-baked extensions, or so I'm told. It likely has multiple security holes hidden in the less-used codepaths.

For 90% of users, Wayland shouldn't make much difference. The other 10% are going to have to find substitutes for features like display forwarding that X does but Wayland doesn't (and never will). Despite this, Wayland is likely to be adopted by all distros eventually because no one wants to maintain X anymore.

Porting TDE to Wayland will likely require some work on QT3 first. Then on the window manager. I'm not sure if it affects other components.

E. Liddell

You have not met it because it is still in development. Just watch "The Real Story Behind Wayland and X" to learn more about the Wayland vs X issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIctzAQOe44

2017-04-06 7:38 GMT+02:00 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp office@klepp.biz:

Am Donnerstag, 6. April 2017 schrieb Jan Kleks:

...

Here's the news: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/ ubuntu-unity-is-dead-desktop-will-switch-back-to-gnome-next-year/

I guess this would be essential for increasing Wayland adoption. And when it comes to Wayland and the TDE, could you create a bug-tracker ticket so that we can track progress (even if very slow) for TDE's Wayland support, please?

It may be m ignorance, but I have never met Wayland in the wild. What does it do, that X11 does not?

Nik

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Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:

Well, that was 4 years ago. I would not hold my breath till it's actually usable.

Anyway, Wayland is a protocol, not a server. I bet there will be a "X11 emulation layer" when Waylang will be ready to use.

Besides half of the arguments are invalid in this presentation and I am wondering what kind of system this guy is running to have such bad experience. While technically it is correct and what they did deserves respect, it is a bit disproportionate. I wouldn't say it's sooo bad as pictured in the presentation. BTW I heard about Wayland few years ago when there was kind of hype in the community, but not tracked it further.

I am amazed in what is going on with KDE, X and many other projects, where people, who thing they know and can better are trying to live out their view of the world. At the end nothing works. At least Gnome did this like about 15 years ago, so that even if stupid, it is one of the lightest and easiest environments.

I am sure some of those people and projects will fail and some of them will bring it to a successfull end. Lets wait and see where it will go. I started using TDE exactly because I do not like replacing something ugly and working for something cool and nice but not working. My choice is to have a stable and working system nothing more and nothing less. When Wayland grows up, I don't mind giving it a chance. I'm sure the people who are behind know what they are doing and why, so it will be a matter of time and the TDE philosophy is not to rush for new stuff. In fact it is pretty hard to keep the project up to date

regards

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

I am amazed in what is going on with KDE, X and many other projects, where people, who thing they know and can better are trying to live out their view of the world. At the end nothing works. At least Gnome did this like about 15 years ago, so that even if stupid, it is one of the lightest and easiest environments.

You are kidding, right?  What about the whole Gnome 3 mess with the Mate & Cinnamon forks(like TDE)?  Granted, it wasn't as messy as KDE4, but they still decided to do something similar.

Yes, but it worked from the start compared to KDE4 (or at least it became usable/mature much faster), so that ubuntu adopted it as default DE. And last but not least, if you want to code an UI fast (and dirty), you can do it easier in GTK. Qt5 is definitely a competitor and I see future for Wayland and Qt5 especially on mobile devices.

...

I am sure some of those people and projects will fail and some of them will bring it to a successfull end. Lets wait and see where it will go. I started using TDE exactly because I do not like replacing something ugly and working for something cool and nice but not working. My choice is to have a stable and working system nothing more and nothing less. When Wayland grows up, I don't mind giving it a chance. I'm sure the people who are behind know what they are doing and why, so it will be a matter of time and the TDE philosophy is not to rush for new stuff. In fact it is pretty hard to keep the project up to date

The biggest problems are:

1. Using an update/new version to force new & unwanted

features.(Android and iOS are famous for this) 2.  Programmers preferring to code new stuff over fixing problems. 3.  Programmers that don't use what they code for real production work.

I completely agree here, and this is why I spent time using and improving TDE.

I used KDE3 on openSUSE untill TDE become a better alternative. Unfortunately, most people aren't very tech-savy and just get over it and use it.  Windows 10 is a prime example.  Force people to "upgrade" by making it difficult to not do it.  I remember one of the arguments on the openSUSE lists about the KDE4 instabilities was that you needed to use the update repo over the standard to get the newer fixes.  When I pointed out that a lot of people probably didn't have a clue how to do that, it was met with disbelief.

That and when KDE4 was being pushed out I was told repeatedly to get with the future and get over it.  Just like being told I need to upgrade my computer to meet what they feel I should use.  My main laptop is a circa 2006 thinkpad, and before this I used a P3 Thinkpad T30p till 2011.

Yes, I had same experience back then until I understood, that with the philosophy they follow, they will never get a really stable environment. Somehow recently it became usable in broader meaning - 6y later!

So much is being pushed on users because it's the "future" like systemd, the "semantic desktop"(WTF is that and WHY DO I NEED IT???? - still don't get it), beagle(which is dead), avahi(utterly useless), etc, etc.

Exactly my problem as well. I feel being forced to be beta tester of someones prove of concept.

There's a lot of things that can be fixed in the Linux ecosystem(removing dependencies or just including them in the program), duplication of work(each distro customizes firefox and supports multiple versions).....I could go on.  But what happens is someone wants to replace something that works and expects everyone to jump on the bus and use it regardless of whether it A. works, and B. offers something useful to the user not just the programmer.

Exactly my problem as well. In case of Wayland - again - I see future in mobile world, where things are developing at the moment and it is really a meaningful replacement of X there. As for TDE I am not quite sure that A. it is doable and B. it would make sense/rectify the time invested.

TDE developers, as you mentioned above, are focused on maintaining the working code. New things get developed only in case it is really needed. When I look at the bug list ... it is more than enough.

regards